What happened? First, a car fire at the construction site. One unit responded notice, the fire in an adjacent building called for backup. A couple of more units gain fighting that fire. There was a tremendous explosion. This is a major construction site, you're, building the crosstown expressway up here and all kinds of equipment, all kinds of explosives. As I know it was a crime they smelled awesome from the very beginning, the police, at large statement, I'm talking to you right now. The system that we always felt they did a great job, investigate additional people other than the five people in prison, or also responsible for the dry according to our investigation, but we're never profit. This is one of the biggest long.

unsolved problems in Kansas city. I welcome to the third episode in our kansas city. Fire fighters case series on instalment we sit down with pat o connor. He was the publisher and editor of the kansas city. New times

and currently runs crime magazine dot com as well as casey firefighters case dot. Com pat, was the first outsider who took an interest in it, yes and has done extensive investigation into it and on this episode he will play many issues with the investigation. Miss application of the law and prosecutors will misconduct during the trial that he feels is responsible. for why this case has gone the way it has the accused and convicted common. He referred to as the marlborough. Five are frank: shepherd Earl skip shepherd brian shepherd, darling, edwards, and brown. They all came from the Marlborough district in Kansas city. They were charged with six Out of murder and sentenced to life in february of nineteen, ninety seven for the explosion, that happened in Kansas city that took the lives of some

firefighters, other key players that you'll hear about our eighty f agent dave. True judge Joe Stevens judge fernando guide on robert rigs, who was supervise or of armed guard security, and his sister Debbie rigs, who was on duty that night, as a guard. Welcome, pat, why In your opinion, did it takes so long for there to be real progress in this case and what was done to change that This case had gone on, saw for six years as the eu. federal government, the eighty f and u S. Department of labor had forecast the invest. their investigation on organised crime thanking net, This humongous explosion was the work of organised labour as every retaliatory action for construction site using non union concrete ready, It was the supplier and they head.

Non union drivers, are the concrete bringing it over the side so that this they they just got this in their mine. This was the ray behind the case at this is union, mrs a union job so do that for six years, and that leads nowhere. The there was no union strife, strife any real. At the sight. There have been one act of vandalism at that site and it headed opened on labour day of eighty eight, and I ve been one act and it was a new. and be in disgruntled employ a union employ one of brown's brothers, the main contractor and so this is how Robert rigs, who ended up being one of the guards there, the at the site. This is how they first met him. He was, They brought him on the direct tail. This guy,

The sea you as they're, trying to find out trapped here, jar of catch, this guy doing another active sabotage, but but he didn't note that didn't happen, but it was the only act in me in the leading up to you, no labour days in early september and we ve got de explosion in late november, chauffeured threem so there is as one act of vandalism and There is never any thing stolen from the site not before not before, explosion or denied motion. Nothing was nothing was stolen age, True now he's in his early Fifty she's been offered a job. the head of security at yellow freight, which is in our major new york stock exchange listed camp

headquarters in Kansas city. He didn't want to leave the eighty five with the biggest case of his life unsolved. He was desperate to wine this thing down? He did to things that kind of give this thing. You know that celebrate the development, were it ended up in marble he had the this product, company unsolved mysteries of tv programme. He inter ask them to come out and do a reenactment of the occasion with Robert stack, the old and untouchable, as the narrator on this show. They announced a fifty thousand dollar reward. For information leading to the convictions of the people responsible for killing firefighters, I've never seen this done anywhere else from her or heard about it done in any anywhere else. He had reward. a reward posters posted in every jail in prison in Missouri and kansas. Termination of the unsolved mysteries.

and in some of these posters were posted in on the overpasses in marble and concern he was places around the marble neighbourhood. These two events ring out me be up to a hundred costed tips hotline people wanting the cash in on you know. They now know something in all Thirty evermore are felons in prison or risk very recently up and have other chow just pending against them? still in the still in the more the justice system and need help federal government has this call a rule. Thirty five be worried is allowed to exchange for testimony against someone else on a crime to cut your sentence. A sentence reduction is a quid pro quo. You help us even if it's, even if you have to produce

shove to do it and will help you federal prisoners are particularly vulnerable or susceptible to this type of of offer, because there's no parole any federal system so the only way out is to serve your time or to do a thirty five b rats, somebody out and so on, people came forward on the thirty hoping for the thirty five, be amended called a lawyer and say see what you can work out, heard admissions by so one of these five dependent. What prison ever in you know, frank, was certain place. It was in. Another darling was in another. Brian was enrichment. brown was the only one not incarcerated, and so he didn't the jailhouse snitch, as he just got the marble snatches, richard and never richard, No phony convictions on his record in brain only had one That was one that they set up part of this big packaged in more five and in prison at that time they had a

under cover north rhine soul. very small amount of drugs to an undercover, narc normally you would gotten basin you, what a gun drugs drug, treatment programmes. I would have been a sentence for a first time offender, but he got got to seven year sentences. Out of it, I mean they really wanted him put away. You dave true shows up at the The court room and says must sit in a hit What all we got encourages the joke. This is a very dangerous guys are threatening people and firefighters case. Put him away, and they do they put him. I know and there was a claim, the true every time. One of these guys got arrested like when skip got, arrested. True, would go to court and asked for no no bay in one of the judges asks: ok. What witnesses have you been middle name, who couldn't name any new war. Any skipper

threatened anybody, but he used that ploy as a way to deny these people bail. locked up in while their locked up now. That mechanism dixon snitch now have their opportunity again, just one example: a guy named John white heat was incarcerated, was skip, skip, got arrested on a gun gun charge them here, two or three other broke into a house in Kansas, stone like a shot gun and a rifle that kind of thing and brought it across the brought back the missouri. So that's federal crime so skips it correctional centre? It and occult ozark correctional centre in hearing John white were actually John. Why meets him cause john? Why knows the game? He has have some contact with skip to make up this deal, so he walks up skip any ass skip. Does he have a match and skip Imagine gives a guy match. He may spent two minutes was skip the entire time

The they were incarcerated together and John white had call this modern, hadn't, headers mother, sent him all the best Articles on firefighters case from the cap should restore so from there fashion and him quite elaborate tale about what skips role in this case was in the things that yep had stolen. He said that one of the things as skip still store was it Answered this is an optical device. They use a dumb construction site tool, grating in height her name on. Don't even have one of those it decide what enjoy went on and on and on was the only of only witness Try was only one with colleagues agree, he was pretty convincing and he had all these items at schiphol stolen at that night. and nothing was ever stolen at night. Me nothing was ever stolen at any time at that construction site according to People who ran the construction site So that would be an example of how this once they

gets you behind bars. This is mrs now. What is set in motion is this. This whole subterranean witness manufacturing sure your target, John, why get his sentence cut by half one guy, Glenn shepherdess a different spelling, no relation needs defended ceiling as one p in his name, shepherd had seventeen felony convictions, he was looking at an inn, azalea habitual criminally was looking at a sentence of twenty five years. For the last thing he done troop offered him. First, it should said he didn't know anything about the case. They called to be wanting to justify the grand jury, and he said I can't despite the grandeur, I don't know anything about the case and they say well we're gonna up great numbers of guns charge against him and blue springs, so we're gonna, upgraded blue springs, gun charge to a federal charge, which

which a lot more time involved in it. If you don't tell us what you know about the fire fighter, education I stole nor anything. But he got the picture. He comes up with a story than implicates frank and testifies. the grand jury and at the trial and his sentence instead of twenty five years- is one year on cross examination. He said the fact is if I was not testify in this trial today, I would be serving. I would be instead serving a twenty five: your sons I'm gonna, one, your sins, a pretty good deal. How many would Mrs were cut worse. This way, a couple more apples of that kind of coercion with a guy. First, as I don't know anything about the case, there was a guy Travis small. He was in prison in arizona and eight, You thought he knew something about. He was from Marlborough. Guy they thought he knew some modern, so they sent an eight

you agent down to intervene in arizona. He says I dont even know any shepherds. I've I've heard of skip javert, but I've never met a single shepherd. a little. While later he has a charging but against him in that wasn't, I'm missouri, hearing, Kansas city, they level too against him for a man your drug operation for transporting cocaine and meddling. It's him, but his wife to discharge carried a sentence of five to forty years and his wife was unknown to the council. fine of two hundred fifty thousand dollars hague. the picture Now he know some stuff about one in one of these defendants he gets an attorney. Turning the sea Becker and they work out. This deal is what all the charges against his wife were dropped. He gets a recommendation of a downward departure. No remember, I said forty years five to forty years. She could have gotten for this deal. He gets a downward depart recommendation.

thanks, seven do eleven years when he is a very serious crime and I think the fine goes away. There's no fine anymore. So was a case they squeezed him He didn't know anything but a squeeze them any. Can he comes up with a uniform accusation, against one of the defendants, the key garment witnesses, The grand jury was darlin: oh edwards, stepson, name, ronnie, Edwards yeah, a young. He had the young twenty one. Twenty two. but an inveterate liar, game orders fraudster fake checks, that kind of thing a scam guy when he was much younger. He was like sixteen when this thing when he was talking about it. He talked about it. So much the police came to seem, pulled him out school doctrine issued stuff about

richard brown and chuck jennings Bryan's, best friends, chuck jennings. He said stuff about them, and then the years go by running, gets in trouble on another fraud deal which laces parole, and so true, goes to seamen Ask him to wear a wire and make a drug make drug buys for four dollars. It s. Our darlene ends up It comes over and says my divorce amazing and take mine shut. Child away at a small boy, you're gonna. Take him away if I don't get money right away, and so would I need you to go to a dealer in and by some mom I think, was cocaine. and so I can sell it and make it. You know, make a profit and meal. Enough money to hire a lawyer to fight Those are my son. in darling, said she would hire him. A lawyer, darlene headed, had come into a settlement. She was on

motorcycle with richard my brother and somebody hold out in front of me in and darling broker back so she had like twenty. Thousand dollars that she got out of this settlement, and at that time you could have helped ronnie right there, but You said no, I really want to. I really want to do it tonight I needed tonight. I need to get this done She goes out and buys the drugs drug money. Driving a car you pull over. like a seminal lemon that within a hundred or two hundred of a school, probably elementary school, which very much upstate penalty for darling, don't drugs, his action within sight of a school of a school so she gets nail on that ronnie they he becomes. Becomes a star witness at the grand jury because she's he makes the story, the term walkie talkie, said richard turn.

and Brian? Had these walkie talkie say stolen from the construction site previously. And he was going do it was gonna buy em from him The night of the explosion, Ronnie's back in this same barney, say in his asking richard and brian and darlings in the bar francs on a car. So it's kind of get them all their no skip. But he's got four of em around this bar. and is asking him if he on veteran barn. Iran is asking them. Can I get any more these walkie talkie, some may say yeah we can get some tonight, it's like! who fifteen morning, explosion will go off at four o. Seven, so We put some all right there at that night at the bar. here now and drive down to the quick trip, they see after the first explosion. They see darlene driving, Brien's car munitions. So far, fetched is unbelievable. That I would lead, definitely drive driving car

Ninety miles an hour with frank in the front seat Brian and written back, and somebody else he couldn't quite identify. So that's system, where did the grand jury so the one piece of physical evidence that was alleged to be stolen from the site. The walkie talkies could not be tied to this. In or crime at all those. What He talk. Is it we're talking about were stolen by alan bettered from another election site about thirty days before this explosion had nothing to do a bright and ryan richard they'd, never stolen walkie talkie, is this? What alan bettered walkie talkies They wanted on better to corroborate what ronnie Edward said about everything and Ellen. He said I can quote. I can vouch for anything. Ronnie said, because everything he told you that you have just told me is not true. It didn't happen those were my walkie talkie. I never talk to rhyme. Jerome about stealin.

I sure wasn't with them that night in the night for now listen. I can't do anything that money to support what ronnie san ronnie lying so true says: well, you know, there's a gun. gun charge pending against you in the state. you took it across the line, we're gonna, make it a federal charge in that's gonna, make your sins much more severe Nay? Well I like it, No I'm not I'm still not got. It corroborating ronnie said so they taking two federal district court, honest don this gun charge interstate gun charge. They appear before federal, judge, scott right and but his attorney says: judge thee. My client here They wanted him to pray. You perjure himself on another, cases, firefighters case. He refused to do it. That's why they're prosecuting this is a process

gender retaliation and judge right should he was disgusted. He couldn't believe the girl wooden stooped stoop to that low called it called in court vindictive prosecution and gave battered He gave him a downward departure. The judge gary Darwin departure said There's no time and you didn't get any sense at all. He should pay for the truck that use. You took her car. shit, you stolen, didn't get back. They make russia, fusion for the truck and you get a couple years. Probation That was the only time that anybody that I know stood up to the pressure Work, the coercion, the d true and paul Becker were willing apply to these people to get him to get him to testify against these five people. Palm Becker d you wish just a new us attorney who prosecuted the case for the governor to me the most obvious sauce, in this case, where the guards at the sight they had the

to gain and and both them in ITALY had different things to gain, but they both had something again. That day at three o clock november twenty eight the day before the only in the morning Twenty nine. This concern can come. You called up robert rigs, as the president of america guard and run, this little mom and pop company. were cutting your hours by an hour on each in their dead too, gifts guards one would come in at six and work till midnight and the other would work midnight to six. I guess it was a like a twelve hour, you're sort of cutting him back to ten so the first year, was dark, was danica stanza. Who was there his room, they were partners, mean partners and a sense of we speak up today? Young people, our partners, they together and donno had the first ship what the garden name kevin kevin Lansky in it. Some

unlike at eight o clock at night, Dennis notice that are cigarette lighted and work in her. She had a visa, peter rabbit, I think was then workin lansky tried to fix it for and when he did, he shot. I shot the whole electrical system out of the car, so it wouldn't even start done, is quite peeved and then next Donna calls Debbie incision, I gotta get disk. I gotta get toto you're, now disguises idiots fouled up my partial, and so did comes in early, but she calls her brother and says you know I'm going over there now why you meet me there, this kind of screwed up in robert does come over and ghost makes a phone call. On Hazan, one in turn against the tow truck fur so they're working on this. There work on this deal.

And robert must be a somebody's mad at LA maskew, they sent him home and they call in another guard named Melvin Stanton. They call him up and you report should term like ten. An honest thing happens at eleven o clock. They tellson tell stan, stan was on the east side, where the anvil traders are sitting in Debbie was on the west side, where the big equipment is on the flat way down below. After an hour, limit? I mean stands only their unerring. They call in time to go home robert rigs go home. You know that you're done for the night may cause you This one hour these driving them little pickup truck. Did a gas gauges broken it's got a lot of miles on, it is paid for she wants to get some one. I think she was wants to get an nother vehicle, so

Robert Scott, the problem, the hours being cut. She got a problem with your truck. She has one I think problem What most probably have em was they set her pickup truck on fire as a way of getting rid of that pickup truck? or benefit and then to make it convincing. They went over to the east side and set a pickup truck, or was one pickup truck on the on the east side that was pretty close to within three four or five feet of the park at the back of one of these anvil trailers got set on are too so you got them apply. the whole story now you ve got now vandalism, decide neighbour, Don't know this, isn't a self inflicted job, which is an answer scam because there's another track on fire on the other side. But the problem was this truck to close to the info trailers and they dashed it

too much gasoline in it got out of control and got to the trailer in our later: it explodes it just slowly, What's what in my mind and initially you know my theory, this cases what started out as a petty in and scam by what by the guard in cahoots your one wanted to keep the hours and the other one near a truck ends up on this tragedy of of an explosion that kill six firefighters. Unless my theory of what what went on there, Debbie one. After the second explosion, She went to her mother's house in grand view, thursday around. I ask you to stare and talk to the costs which she went home so detect then went to her mother's house about six in the morning picked her up near the second lawyers like a four forty, so She wasn't home very long and zen azra cargo in downtown, and he

as a forty minute, videotape interview, Debbie and in which she tells lie after lie. Tarzan about what happened that night works ample. She says I was his post. I was supposed to work that night she was scheduled to work at night at midnight. Shy was only came down to that site to bring my brother and meat loaf sandwich not scheduled My brother was on the east side. There big ever story was. They saw two prowlers Debbie sitting near by herself in her pickup truck. and she ceased to large darkly dressed prowlers a quarter of a mile away near the office trailers that dumb these people were in a mortality trailers. Office trailers, not animal traders, user on the west side. near the large equipment, were browns. Browns brothers worked the operation from it. sure she calls on. This is a story he's doin zinn. She calls of her brother on walking.

He or whatever they use, radio and joy you about the prowlers and he comes over, and then they go looking forum they'd find them and by golly they decide to go down and ass. The manager too quick trip of he seen any anybody suspicious and he tells them they haven't. We, you think they'd get I can they're coming back to decide. Their job is to guard decide, boasts both sides sitting on the west side done, do anything for the east side. Could you can't even see up to up to it? It is thirty five feet above and and it's dark on the side. The west side is what a big equipment is very brightly lit, needs to overhead lights Anybody driving by concealing going on there, but on the side, just the opposite is it's in darkness, so you're really need a guard up there on the east side more new. Do the west could do lot more on the east side in terms of getting not being detected. Sneeze your side to breach

glove in his station wagon and they go after the do this, but they just ass, you mean they asked the guinea tells them know what you think they come back to the site, but they don't. buys breakfast roles put a mental microwaved. The heat a mob buys milk gets a coffee. they're, sitting outside in the station wagon heaviness stag, when a woman, a name Vivian rose, it turns out, comes down in very rapidly in the parking lot gets out carson Fast at her door doesn't even close and its thirty eight. Recent night runs into the trip and says to the manager those there's equipment on fire at the construction site. He doesn't call nine one one. this comes out and tells the guards in women guards don't move fast enough, This woman, she gets back in your car like a good citizen dry back on seventy one and not

hills down a patty wagon in reports, the fire because not. The guards were so unconcerned when the guards duke back to the site, they collyer they call leaf. Our department in Debbie rubbish, while Robert reporting a fire to the party forming a background on the table, the dispatcher tapes, you can hear women's voice, saying all the old Explosives are on fire, too What were she was? There was no answer. no way she could have known Explosives. We're on fiery. There are one of things up there. Could you not see at far or was there's something in the way in a quarry that rock out of that on the east side. That's what it was was a rock quarry when acquired a limestone out. They knocked down a lot of trees and It was like a football field. Links full of trees were stacked or status. I am one of the trailer domino's a massive amount trees. I could have been on fire a complete you're gonna bet on fire

They could see. The best they could see is just some flames coming up, but to say that flame for carbon trailers, yet nor billy did have to know that to say it made immediately made me think. Well, I know you. And see see that so for her to say that that's inside information and only you'd have to have been earlier that night to know that thing was on fire. so she's doing this forty minute interview with detective zen, gender, no one at this time, but he's finding it huh. hard believer another copies interviewing robert rigs next door, roman robert, it is now saying you know he was on the west side, with his sister at the time and she say knees on each side. the kind of doing his back and forth which one of you is telling the truth, and so and growing more leary The conversation goes on and he started Did this power theory didn't make a whole lot of sense, so the nick

ninety goes back out. He goes out and meet with Debbie at the sight, and has your her trucks gone. So there is she sitting in police car he has. Debbie show exactly where she was sitting and unworthy of these problems. Were I've been there and I I couldn't tell you whether it was a quarter of a mile or a third of a mile, but it's quite a ways away from where She was sitting work. She claimed to see these powers and its dark so isn't hadn't had another detective women detective phrase so then said, will do a little experiment here. I'll go down. Do I'll go down this quarter mile river rodin when I in place all radio you now I want you, you guys look over and see. If you can see me so pleasing listen radios maiden free scan, seem suggest, he's an tantric Go to start wavin injuns, big guys. ouch waving his arms and freight can seem. I've been to this same place

I mean I was there around midnight very dark. I couldn't tell whether it was a truck I mean a pickup truck or a car going by Debbie could tell the guy was wearing black clothing with a hoodie and had and had long hair coming out of it. That's how you could see, and I couldn't, if was a pickup truck or a car or a what what it was just. I can see two headlights as period, so one then gets back in the car remember that Debbie said she was sitting in the she was sitting singer pick up with what dome line on because she was doing new scheduling ahead to reschedule everybody because the origin and cut that day. so the dome lights on web syn. On the dome light now he can see as its own his own face in the window. He can't see anything in his mind. She sees this as a boy fat lie. One of those rare ideas homicide department had was less polygraph robert rigs. At that point,

Nineteen. Eighty eight robert rigs had eight years as a polygraph giver. I guess you come up. Polygraph He gave he administered polygraph testing and companies that want to see. If somebody was you, ploy was true for they hire. People like rigs he'd, been, for eight years will he passes the police minister polygraph that Canada, actually I'm from the radar Even now I don't really human. They are not admissible in court and please don't really then on really your polygraph much credibility, because people can be numbers, you could be a pathological iron bynum. They couldn't polygraph. Debbie, cause. She was five and a half months pregnant and apparently that dangerous to polygraph he. Hooker mobility are hooked up to these large and things in my number. for the baby. So she's skated on polygraph. They don't polygraph herschel? They kind of fall by the wayside. Although I've talked to the

The captain who led this investigation hit his number one. Person. The sergeant be lowered, early investigation into ended, detective former detective victors, and For many hours, all of them thought the wrong five people were and are in prison. They thought these five people were terrible people than they would be in prison for some other thing. Right now may not like there have been out of their minds, because these wrongful wrong five people convicted but they're, not the right people in their money in police gleason's minds, and they are Are we suspicious of the involvement of the guards that they had the motive there? After all, there are the only ones there. The other proposed this thing about agent, true story this case was the guards are only gone by naked claimed five minutes but let's say they're gone fifteen minutes, let's us

What what they say. This ragtag group of narrative, wells, drugs and drug use three m and terrible physical condition they somehow, according to age and true, they arrive at this scene. In up to four vehicles come in should totally unseen. No one sees them come in. They all this having they. They shut compressor on far they shut a truck onto a pickup truck on fire on on each side, and then they might these. This info trailer get going while they're doing it one of em. one or more of them, goes all the way over to the west side and dashes Debbie, rigorous pickup truck. was gasoline. No, why anybody want to do that? Who god only knows but and then they all five leave unseen by anybody now, there's our driving by here?

all night long. You know not a lot of course, but there are cars coming by all the damn time. So this right tat group. They pull off, something you, you would say the navy seals or the green berets or somebody would have been very proud of accomplishing perfect eager, ingress and egress to decide in a mist, accomplished in there home by the time. The thing goes off. These guys the kind of a perfect crime and they stole a lot of stuff while they were doing it. So that was You know it's farcical, the garden. Case against these five was far to go on many levels, but none more so than that they can apply off this credibly efficient, dastardly activity in five fifteen minutes unseen someone else. I think it points to the guards the net

came up in any of the trial debbie left in. In her pick up, she left her purse. Her billfold cheque book that kind of thing, credit cards and it was in like a little grocery bag. She used that is on the whole, the billfold stuff in, also left a thirty eight snub, nose, revolver and in the truck the bologna brother, robert rigs I dont know very many women, fact: I don't know any who would leave go off and leave the purse and if I had just into prowlers who would go often leave the gun, shot him it suggest like this, a panic aberration, most pickup truck got on far too damn fast wasn t to get to go back in the back seat and get your desire, get these items out there that we, We had to get out a dodge that quick trip.

It was a really important part of their alibi, mean him to be seen by this manager as certain time Thirty seven minutes before the explosion, It was part of alibi that was very successful form. It seems like that fire would have had burn a lot longer than the five minutes. They were gone fire. Was it wasn't it's like a little fire in a truck destroy. This truck was ablaze the flames shooting up ten feet out of this truck. There was so much gasoline poured on Debbie's truck a few years before. this debbie rigs had arranged for her her roommate and by the I think it was the same one down extension to steal. Her car have hammered carbon ported stolen to collect insurance, which did collect on. She admitted this. If she confided this to Paul Becker, the prosecutor before she took the witness oh by the way, a few years back, I

have another incident with a a gold mine, it was a scam. John rid of vehicles for insurance money was not a new subject: Debbie rick's, how this law enforcement not go after a person who has a hit three of insurance fraud, whose truck happens to get burned in an arson. Feds, are the ones that ended up with this case. If this were this, data local kansas city, homicide department case, I think, would we would have had a totally different result. I think the guards would have been indicted. Gus thinks kept happening the implement the guards, as the years went by there was a woman came forward in nineteen nineteen as is the year a little over a year after the deal after the explosion. she was a passer by for a credible person. She was undertaking in china to research hospital emergency room around. I think she took him over there about

when she's coming back around three thirty, something if she's driving by the sight, she ceased Debbie. Action, no Debbie rigs, but she sees this pickup truck fire ablaze she's want to use the term ablaze just burning like crazy but she also sees to vehicles with the headlights like searching area like the bushes, not too far away from me from the truck In these war headlines, like you'd, see on a police car. She said they were coming out of the sun roof. This is what the guards you, robert rigs has had a son roof in his station wagon in so she sees this. This puts the guards at the scene when the pickup truck on fire, not too quick trip they'll find out about it at the quick trip they ve. They already know about it, so this woman gets and calls nine. Nine one warning report What she seen

and then when the explosion goes off, she calls a tips. Hotline must make a further report, a bigger report gosh what she's saw she thinks is important and that these people, who looked like you do not want to be cast, but they had the looks of key if we had these lights goin on, while this pickup truck on far before the explosion, while they don't call back on the tipps hotline, but a station. stays in her mind, and this is important information the police should haven't so sheikh. She has a friend who's, a detective, a homicide. active, a woman, a woman detective. She calls her. users of what are you? What should I do? You said you Call homicide and make a report haven't. Have him make a report about what you said so this nineteen ninety zan the phrase or off the case. Now it's been moved other detective. Moved on but phrase anxious of anxious. A phone call me takes this report from this woman

basically release what I just said. Will you think this would have like real? They say, hello, hello, we're back and This is what the guards, but it didn't happen, an impact it gets often by the sergeant and in its filed. and the government doesn't turn it over to the defence, as as it were, told to do under the Brady mother, the Brady rule. This is six very exculpatory informations of about Marlborough five. I mean it puts the guards at the sight when the pickup truck on fire. You couldn't get more scope a tory than that for the five defence, but it doesn't get turned over. My opinion is of that. that report have been turned over. The guards would have been indicted and Five would have never been to Marlborough. Five would have never been heard of. Nobody ever heard of him in this case, but the report got buried. So they had this uh by this time they had a taskforce workin on it Why then and phrase Weren't anymore, they were honest taskforce. There was now connected.

The eighty tf. And u s yours labour department, a couple of home from homicide but not these two original guys, which one very small problem Would you take the two guys know the most often, but they did why weren't the guards pursue we were talking about. Some opportunities are kept coming up bring these guards back into focus one. such case was nineteen, ninety three. Now we're just you know. For years down the road or so a young eighteen, Special agent truism form the town by citizen name among other citizen in january, neil that he he'd over her donegal stands at. This is one of the guards at the sight telling telling A woman named sandy digit de giovanni at stacks restaurant, on the north side, he heard

donna tell sandy that she had assisted in a fit of shares. tat? A female security guard, Debbie eggs in setting fire to her pick up so sky goes to the Da Tf head agent and tells you miss you think be a pretty good tipp over Eight months later, they finally similar the people from the task force over to interview Debbie Rick Confronted with This allegation that Donna had said that she helped her. Do it detective interim interviews, sir and she says, that's not true down as a drug drug, I dramatic seen down in two months: Donna wouldn't have the guts to catch the torch, my truck and detective. His name was emerson issue. Will you take a lie? Detector testes, it? Oh yeah I take a lady tat, your test. This was on a friday that Monday emerson gets a call for my lawyer revolution. Debbie rig, saying she's, Michael

and if you want to talk to her again, you talk to me and she will never take a lie. Detector test. That's their last real good, clear, shot at it now what they could do that youtube? You can just tell the government a pound salt that they could have taken this information to a grand jury or something like this peanut her in there and painted darkest stanza subpoenaed all these people in the flesh staying out. They could have dug deep This thing they had a great chance through that in a you, get the benefit of that take advantage of once again as this mindset that organise labour getting go away. Don't give me anything else This is an organised labour so that you can permeating this case was every chance they had to get to to the guards they just didn't. Capitalize on it. When they finally gave up on labour and they went done. Did this unsolved

history, show and posted the fifty thousand dollar reward, and then we get a whole new cast of characters comes in out of the marble neighborhood as the most likely perpetrators there were so many chips coming out of Marlborough, we're all down and read. I read all the police forced the came in their word. dozens and dozens of people named as suspects in this case? Not one of these reports look name. Frank shepherd skip shepherd, darlene, brian and richer brown, not one port put these five together. Many many reports introduce characters. You know many other marble residents were introduced at this time sometimes in connection with wandered one or more of these people. My point is that never these five, wherever identified by anybody in this case, except for one this a trial darling? I would just daughter

I did her own daughter turn against her true It is normal kind of high pressure tactics to get her name's, here were to get Becky to be a prosecution. Witness but he was eleven years old at the time of the explosion. Her mother, I hate it I am really I mean I am ashamed to say it did crack in the house, frank did crack skip, did crack. This little eleven year old saw a lot of bad things. Mother get beaten up by frank, her brother, move to another state to get away from frank leaving her there? So she's she's had a very tough time and untrue True comes to interview her Becky head, marijuana, roach in or and the straight forums when he sees that is basically got Becky right now,

She could go to jail for an be a drug bus ride here on our first interviewee ever gave Dave true let her know that he tells details becky's things like people know your mother's involved in this, and she might get killed is better if she be in prison, good for you to read her out. Becky would very much like to get rid of this guy, and he said guided, doesn't go away until you until you giving something you'll just keep coming back. I don't care where you go, you go to your job side, he comes there. You of to another town in Missouri. He comes to that town in Missouri. He will not leave you alone so finally comes out and says something vaguely about these five plus. Couple of others, one of whom was Ronnie edwards and some other some other guy, can't remember right now, maybe johnny and then was johnny driver. So we got seven I'm sitting around darlings kitchen table kind of talking about

places they might go to steal stuff, maybe a construction site. No, particular construction site, not the one at eighty seventh the one daily seventh street. This group near, do would sit around occasionally talk about stealing stuff and maybe it instruction site and so That's what she's willing to tell true now he gets it down where this was my, maybe a week before or maybe the night before all the way up to and it was this construction site just any construction site and it could have been, Well, let's just say it was the night before that's what the jury will get to hear that This clause is the night before so when the jury, here's this! This is the most damning thing that they hear at the trial, God here's the daughter of the wanted it finance,

put them all together in this. This wicked plot, you know still stuff from the construction site. and if you can't believe her, who could who could you believe I mean she's got every reason in the world not not to rat out her own mother, although they don't realize that she has. Very good reasons why she had a very disappointing. Time with her mother and detached frank shepard and others are kind of collateral damage that get picked up you're, the brian and no brain and richer dishes. they never serenity table with frankenstein never in their lives. Not did you steel suddenly at a chance, but richard didn't steal stuff so put to put richard at this table is really really disfavour to him. That was the most damning thing I think, The jury heard so no connection between these folks. Where did it go south an darling

Darlin wretched, really sunk this case right after the explosion? Darlene made a comment that got right back to the cops it in her sister said to sit down sister said the same thing right after the first explosion of richard browns, there was a black truck it's like richard brown ago, shooting down brooklyn right in front of right right by darling's house and your sister's house. These people all live very close together and her sister said there goes richard in Darling starts reporting this around Marlborough. Nick, it's right back to the cops. The cuff start harassing seek upstart cops, richer, run away. The done take him when you figure out the darlings the source of this source of this thing, even though they're good friends, but it's just the gossip, was right, rife and marlborough at this time, and it was the target, was the talk of the thing

years, you couldn't turn on the tv set for a long time, many months after this case, without hearing about the firefighters, gay solar talking about it, run notoriety mean. The cops come via the car she came by and got picked up the darlene and frank one night. They were on their way to a laundromat and a pull them all right. Right outside the launder men I say to him: you're under arrest for murder case can city cup they taken. down the police station. They interview, darling for like three. four damn hours falls in another room francs. In a room adjoining go to sleep, on the floor on the table they spend like, minutes with him when their through with darling driver back your car, launder men in the dome was frank and ten minutes. Now, like three in the morning This would be like eight nineteen. Eighty nine watched this aid true, started dumb

justinian on a marlborough far. They really stepped up the pressure on richard brown. They kept her sitting, arresting them an interview in him. They would be allowed to hold you relax. Seventy two hours without a charge. so they hold him for sharing two hours, questioning about this case and then he'd walk out that door they tackle work, handcuff him bringing back in another seventy two hours totally illegal, but that's what they did. He never he refused to cooperate with them, and so he richard was an attorney. for driving without a license. He got his license suspended when he was like honest, seventeenth birthday in grand view, and so from then only drove without we drove without a license, and he was often out racing. The cartagena just drive in london fashion, I didn't get going away. Farming but ever know. Many get nabbed and he had a long list of traffic. So I too for driving without a license job

One time is not even driving a car is french, Jennings is but the cup they want him back downtown, complex, the kiva missions, rosemont riches, fitness here. The driver, your come with me, as you know, I have a license It's time they sent him out to leads us detention farm outside of kenya. You know north kansas city, north korea, kansas city They really wanted to say something: the first thing he says he makes up some story about. He said they will. You makes up a story, thanks. They won't believe in puts in like six seven people into this deal darling frank skipping, but a bunch of other people to their sister did? His name is ditty the shepherd. Did he shepherd? Larry baker, her husband puts in a bunch of names, that's too many names for them. They bringing back in a night

They really want to knock knock at noon. Narrowed down to the groups are interested in you. Is it quick trip ready? Sir am walking towards structure site with a gas can right, so they type that up in a statement. He thinks by not sign it. Did you can't attributed to him, but he knew a richard doesn't know anything about that. so the day they burst, darlene omni drug charge, dave true says you know you ve got a window, you ve got a window of opportunity here. You tell us about the firefighters case this drug george Gozo goes away, is like this. Didn't you Looking at ten years on this you're. Looking at no years helpless, honest firefighters case she, I can't help you. I don't know anything about it. And he said well, you ve got to ten years and she to ten years, because I dont know anything. Give me a polygraph pop. grab me I'll. Do it right now? No, I'm not going we're not gonna, give you polygraph we're gonna, let you

about this. So many put it up put a room by herself in a put richard brown statement on the table to sri Nan. She sees that richard is implicated, her frank and skip, and so she figures at feet in implicated, her She might as well implicate him She doesn't know right away. She goes out to put a rotten the jail in liberty couplet. It has no shower and no phone calls no nothing about nine o'clock, as she calls up the a TF guy and says, I'm ready to talk. they do an audio recording, reader, her miranda rights they offered. Please they will talk about that little bit later, so darling, now says. I'm homeless. Sleep november twenty eighth or I mean november twenty twenty whatever was kept mermands time a day but she's home asleep, richard brain wake, her up and

I say they're right on the gas and when they she take them to get some gas, so she drives into the quick trip they fill up. The gas can they're bringing it back and then richard and brian start talking about they're, going to go up to the construction site and robert and they get this candidate for them. So now we ve got this is on an audio tape and trial The whole thing is played, so here is one of the two and saying that too she took to the fence there and dropped him off and she had not nothing further to do with it. Kind of you know gets herself off the hook. She thought and put these two guys in the news mean jury can now see these people or involves some way all these Niches might be If some of them I mean them, their stories are obviously crazy, an unbelievable, but when you wanted to do and insist on an audio tape. They don't play them videotape, of her where she says. I know nothing about this put case. Gimme a polygraph, the jury doesn't get to see that defence systems

point a videotape body were one she Josh's. No now can have them. yeah can see that turn Just go up to the bench and ask for this. I asked for these kinds of you know that they can't just say in the courtroom: there's a videotaped that where she says she knows. None you gotta go whispered to the judge. So. The jury only gets to hear this, and so is this possible Only that these five no matter how implausible the government's case was with all these jailhouse witnesses. It darlene herself saying that she has agency in this crime when this case was rested, went to the jury, but the jury us for two things. They want to do: here the audiotape darlene again and they wanted to read Becky edward just testimony naked. Hang something on that debate. defy nodded five testified, trial, neuron defence, and there was this prize

you know they had. They were represented by five separate defence attorneys, oh good, all good defence attorneys, but they had conflicting interests on the one side you had, your brown the other side of the other three. by the way the indictment was red printed d. Brown was last. These five testified braun could always go last. He was always in to be the last one, the other former kind of afraid of him. He richard is kind of unpredictable and he said attorney is a bulldog John as and was nineteen years is a federal prosecutor. This was his first big cases, a defensive turning and he didn't have that. cooperative spirit that you'd normally get among a group of defence attorneys, John Osgood You know his client head vested interests other than nurse, but he has separate interest these. Should these were for high school dropout. And darling who greater

The sooner was the only high school high school grad there and He unsophisticated about noon, judicial system and what what you can do in court, much can't dune, they were afraid, that they wouldn't be very good witnesses either, and cross examination becker could bring out. You know nineteen rebuttal witnesses you know bring out. He could try his whole case again. So there was some reasons for him not to testify from what I can tell from talking to the attorneys was there was this fear that Richard much sandbag, I'm at the inn, but I don't know why they had that fear, because before that I started during the trial, and before the sentencing, the prosecutor reproached these five attorney individually and said you turn states evidence against the other for five years and you're done this case you're gonna get life without parole. Otherwise, will all five m

turned it down three times, but richard had his own so, the five years right there and didn't take it into the trail while they were now, you may ass well ass to items in the deliberation. The judge gave instructions and I thought they were pretty pretty clear, but the jury didn't find him clear. These five had to be individually either not guilty are guilty one. At a time you can't just now I've of each one of to be considered. You could find one of them not guilty and the other four guilty or- guilty in foreign only one guilty. You it's up to you you're the trial of fact. That's what the jury is didn't I didn't understand at either. So the only vote they ever took. They took one vote and voted on all five of them. One fell swoop. There was sentiment in the jury room to acquit, darling,

mean. After all, she did was drop these guys off. According to her story that they jury heard only audio mean the government sounded like it believed it. You listen to the audio, they don't say your line, darling noonan. You know you stayed so they wanted to acquit acquit her and convict the other four, but thought, if you that they let her go, they'd have to let all the other forego, and they were about to do that. So they blew that jury. These two basic instructions, these people, five minutes have never caught a break in this case mean everything you could go wrong. What wrong and proper? Nothing more went wrong, then bad luck. They had on the judge the job. is handle all the pre pre pretext. Stuff was judged federal district judge bartlett. whose considered, probably the fairest judge in that when the western district missouri

He agonising over mean of a word, every defence or persecution. Objections heave gives sir serious keerful belaboured thought to these very diligent judge. The morning of the trial, the jury been pig, bartley was they're, gonna pick the jury, but today they came in to start to try making opening statements, bartlett's, not their he'd, been diagnosed with bone cancer wooden very soon. Killing and headed leaves a trial couldn't could not presided to trial and he was right waste by a judge named Joe Stevens on senior status, who had just the opposite attitude in the courtroom. He wanted it be everything to move along at a smart face no agonising over the meaning of words, and if you made an objection, forget it unless, Having been a garment, you could government, you can make an objection very pro, prosecute torreon judge.

He would make an objection before the prosecutor could make an objection. He would stop the defence turning himself Instead of waiting for an objection to come from the prosecutor, he just cut him off career camera. Call him the bench. You can't go that way. I give you an example of how, on furthers judge was one of the attorneys interviewing a garment witness, and she mentions the fact that her investigator I had interviewed this witness and she's not going to say some of the things that he had told the investigator and a judge stopped certain. No objection from the prosecutor. The judge stops. The trial calls her forward cost, they all come up in the judges. I don't have any half an inch in defence investigators. I will not allow any any questioning based on information new have from a defence investigator nigh, particularly dont, like this defence and investigated, who was a former v

well thought of Kansas city missouri cop, so the next day do defied defence. The attorneys cannot believe what they ve heard. The duke. discharge, has total disregard discredits any is unworthy any work, the work product of the defeat of the investigators these five. They do agree on one thing: this guy you gotta go, in they submit a request to the job to refuse himself for bias was one of these. These were either works is its great. If it works, judge refuse himself if it doesn't work, is like a suicide mission. Now you're really got a problem in the judge, took seconds to say not refusing himself and press on He was very given short shrift tube the demon but now I mean it was just another great example that defence had bildt's real kay surround, calling me Debbie rigs, robert rigs and dave true, the investigator as defence witness

they thought there were so many lies, a Debbie rigs. It told about heard what happened at night and what robert and run breaks through? They could have gone and painted a new picture for the jury about What really went on that night me: why would they go off a group to be there and guard ass. I had he ever leave aside Maybe one of you goes, but you're both don't go questions like that. In all the lies and Debbie told We now knew were lies. The defence now Newark newer lies because Debbie had done a number of civil depositions You know they're worth millions of dollars, damage caused by these explosions. Pretty the second one, and so there class action suit by homeowners, business owners and, in the end, Europe's companies now had the right to depose. Often brown, brothers, construction, people, mountain planes and america mirror guard these? Were the people they were showing the three groups. They were soon so Debbie rigs had to go on had to do deposition after deposition, very lengthy. Once our long to our long deposition,

where a lot of stuff that she'd tolls zen she had the noun was alive and then will depositor knew they were lies, so they couldn't wait to talk to her to get Debbie rigs on the stand, happen to be the governments. First, witness in a cage. Rex was a second witness in the case in they save time for last so anyway. These are very important. Government This is, and they were to be the most important defence witnesses Somebody else did it is the greatest defence, most common defence. You can come up with we need the classic perry. Mason thing you know, Michael, I didn't do it this guy. Did this sitting in the third world, where the defence predicated on that, while testifies and in these five is very clumsy- awkward situation with five attorneys. Now the cross examination begins with it and a fallen over themselves. One after another, the defence deaf would have

from things they want ass, Debbie about and some one of the points the judge would say. That's cross examination is limited to what the prosecution ass, the witness and what the witness commented on you can only back over the ground. The prosecution is interested in the question. The judge would say that's beyond the scope, the uk, ask that, because that's beyond what the prosecutor ask her about it's off limits right now you have you have wait to ask that when she's you're witness same kind of phenomenon went on with dumb robert rigs. they couldn't go beyond the scope of action and because you could call him later and then a true who was on the witness, stand a long time they didn't ask him anything about why he munich fast these five. Why did the unviable? Why did the was the motivation behind unsolved

mysteries, and why put these posters in all the jails? And they don't ask me mad? Well, the defence to ask himself like that. Well, that's beyond the scope, so These are all set aside. The defence really italy has these least three guys: that's that's the centrepiece of the prosecution. This case is now the defences turn. This is a dimension. the jury is not hearing, judge says I've given us from sought not going to allow you to call Debbie rigs Robert riggs or dave. True orgy, tram, the head guy for the: u S, labour department and here's. Why, on the first three on a rigorous and true, you have. ample opportunity on cross examination to ask all the questions you wanted to enshrine them. Would be unfair: the prosecution for you to be able to dig up all the stuff does them labour department found out. I mean they found out a bunch of stuff to it and it's

in all that unlikely that labour was involved. I mean it, it's not implausible fact. It would be considering Kansas cities, labour history in know that that was a time probably a lot of fruitful things popped out of this investigation? So those There goes the defence the defendants aren't gonna, devising just have a couple of alibi witnesses and in they rest it's a force, the government, secure them for, like five and a half weeks, they have like two days a day or two. by witnesses in only get I can skips mother up there. Well that that's frank Skips mother, she'll, say anything, you know, but all five of them, What are the alibis for the five is the alibis these five people had for that day. we never really strong alibis. Many were therefore, by many many people throughout the day november. Twenty eight,

You know the week in following thanksgiving and so that's them. That's the money. Most people were preparing to return to work or go to school. But Larry baker he's the brother in law of frank and skip meriden ditty baker. He thinks it's. A great data have a party and had his house in marble case after case of beer comes in, and people drop in and drop out all day in Frankie he'd been run over by a car, so he lifts up the street to get there skips. There brings his girlfriend there's going to be a cookout at like six thirty or something like this, and people come and go. The Frank's parents come and go. Ever. People come and go so they're. Seeing these people learn frank and skip drink. An enormous amount of beer, frank, estimated, that day that he drank a case. Some point frank, gets mad dog, throw something at at which point darling decides to leave about five o clock. She had enough of frank for that. For the day she takes Becky, they go home,

they put her around until Becky goes to bed and and darling watches a tonight show that's: okay, that's darling, frank and skip skips. Girlfriend are still there. They have the cookout about six, thirty, eight and then they just just watch tv. It's cold at night. Frank is very. ali injured from the car accident. So Larry about one thirty says article makes it I'm leavin larry, so you can't walk they get, Six pack a bear an early going to blocks. They get a six pack, a baronet and Larry dries frank to his house. the more abroad, they don't have. Sidewalk per se. They have ditches frank, it's out of the car and falls into the ditch. Larry has to call darlin. Oh the house, to helping lift frank up he's dead weight, carry frank into the house, Frank's got Madonna shoes and his pants and francs a very meticulous when these guys always has pure white tennis shoes very prize himself.

when the crease in his pants, you mean this kind of thing. So this is bad news for frank, fallen in a ditch and then he comes in and he first he tries to go to bed, but he's just stomachs to upset me yes, darling, making from scratch, legs and make me like a purple bismarck cocktail. Foreign issues, I'm just about ready to smoked. My last cigarette of the day when the first explosion goes off What were richard and Brian doing the day of? What's richard in Briand, what are doing what they do almost every day? There's seventeen but richard earlier In years old they driver they just drive around Marlborough. Looking for scrap metal They like define, metal or copper, take it to a junk yard, and somebody deals in this kind of stuff and sell it for a little bit of money.

The trying to make enough money to buy beer or cigarettes they get up about eleven o clock. Levin twelve They do every day they do. This scrap metal dionne richard drops Brian about six thirty. I know richard has a pretty good recall in his day, though, it was dating. A girl that worked at one of these topless bars depicts picks her up. She has renders baby sitting somebody, so they go over there and wait for these people to come back about eleven thirty, so they play cards. written in these two two young women are planned or some kind of card game. The comes only play cards, the forum now and at some point This woman who works in the barn, was to go home and go to bed, and so richard takes her to this more child. Jobs are often in the other woman comes with him and richard This time is so drunk himself

the young woman going assassin he sleeps on a sofa. She sleeps a nurse and place too. So that's what this group of these five defended sets. Till they spent a day we were outside. You talked about why you got involved in the case at the time. this trial. Nineteen, ninety seven travel the marble five I was the editor and publisher of the alternative. Weekly newspaper call the kansas city new times. J, J, maloney hood, former under the new times had been in bed. to get a reporter for the cancer star part part of that and all for the orange county register here The parrot legal form one of the attorneys who to eternity, who represented darling, edward neighbours will bunch j j- was paralegal paralegal for him throughout this trial. At the end of it he approached

the publisher leah, our paper Instead, he had, he would like to write articles about the case. We agreed see what you do well, he did a beautiful job. He wrote he wrote a ten thousand word article about we called it frame up, showed how these these five got. Picked have they've got frame by this a tf agent to to answer for this crime and then part two was railroaded. How judge Joe Even made it possible for these five to get one the most unfair trials imaginable, but it kind of stood in my crowded this. mass, even just as good, could be perpetrated it's people being all energy and nothing was ever going to happen to them. I mean they were dead, never knew you'd. Never, you would have never heard their names again. Unless somebody did something somebody they take on this case. Somebody. Then Stand up to this,

Great injustice and see if you could do something about it, so I I hired a an attorney to do the habeas corpus, Commission he raised twenty one claims about how unfair the trial was, and many other things federal judge here, fernando guy He didn't do anything on the habeas corpus for two years and then turned down in one sentence: denial the whole petition Then I went to see John ass good. So what? You do now. He said well now that you ve lost that appeal You can do. Is you have to get newly discovered evidence previously available and bring at forward and asked for a second habeas corpus, These are very rare, rare and a sense of like to proceed to pursue. Cases ever get a second second chance of having a habeas corpus, so John thought than what, but on the best ways would be

to go out and re interview, somebody's witnesses, these straw witnesses, and so he had an attack investigator new mark reader. This is the same investigated by the weighted judge. Stevens said you couldn't you didn't trust former place. I was running as a former sergeant very good guy up straight shooter. Guy Josh now we want and we started going back and getting somebody's trial witnesses My one of my my special case was Becky edward, the daughter I did a few others we had, eight affidavit recantations and kind of said the same thing that this agent was very abusive and coercive me liking. For example, one of em said: did initiative the goal of the white dave, true operated. He would say to a witness. I know, What you know and if you don't tell me what I know you know that structure of justice, that's a federal crime you're going away two year old son of yours,

going to social services, not to what I know you know that's a catch me too. For anyone if I've ever heard, one by the way. Here's what I know you know you but a party and marble, and you heard brian and richard make admissions of along these lines That's one of the evidence. This woman's name carry neighbours testify to the trial, had had been a form girlfriend a brain, just one example. So we took I've got, took these eight affidavits down to like mcgraw pulitzer prize. winning investigative report. I'm through I never met in my life. Ask him to take a look at possibility of the star getting getting them In the case yeah. We interviewed mike on episode twenty four, and he said you know I saw it was a long shot, buddy it back to me

Six months later, the star put him on the case full time. One story after the other start coming out you know you ve been reviewed. My caves done a fantastic job and you know where we were mark reader and I found a witnesses MIKE found. Fifteen who said nay agent coerced him not all of them a great deal to lie, but they worry declaration was very substantial for them to lie. So my did this front page story about that and that led to the then you? U S, attorney for the western district. guy named John John wood, to call for an independent investigation of this witness tampering mean this. Look. This look terrible of representative cleaver said this is an outrage. You know what this apparently, what this investigator did

judge right to one stood up to Becker on the island bettered case. He said it was an outrage and it was this led to a an independent investigation at all have gone to inspector general's office. That's what inspectorate inspector generals offices are for inside in all departments of government have this inspector general function to keep them honest? They work independently of russia department. While this didn't go to the inspector general went right back to the the back her side of the deal, the criminal division and gave it to an attorney in Washington DC. The department of justice in the criminal division to investigate call, Becker and dave true had greatly abused these witnesses because both among done it when de Becker cut all these deals with snatches Becker's unwanted, took this line perjury at this at the grand

Jury from Ronnie Edwards. You know in this kind of thing mean Becker's in just as deeply is where Dave true. We didn't make much sense. Paul Becker was just he had the authority of the government, I mean you know in a court room or anywhere else I mean you represent the united states government. and he had all this credibility that he just abuse the he just abused as much as he could to get these five to go down there. you're. So what's the motivation? Well, then, closing this case me would think it would be more. Evaded by justice that that would be his number one job is to get the right people and close the case, probably button that wasn't it. They just these five narratives out, whom they knew were defenceless. they wouldn't have a month to make any appeals. I think one of my most important stories MIKE Mike did was about this woodcutter at the site name at massey. He confirmed something that I think really makes a lot of sense in terms

the whole time in of the explosions up there, the second trailer dick to explode exploded, forty minutes after the first one- and it was the second trailers by this massive fireball it and cut the trailer and half and up on in miss was so forceful debts. How hard it is to get anvil to explode. Is I mean it hits hits for fireball and doesn't explode. It has to it starts burning and it took forty minutes for that. With that much force and heat to explode, So I think it stands to reason that it took a lot more than forty minutes without any fireball to get the first further to go off so Ed massey heat. He tells he goes to the eighty. If all these years later, like two thousand and eight, when MIKE's do any stories and he says the I was at the site that night I was east side of the site site that night, and I saw one these guards Donna stanza, throw something on fire at the trailers.

It was as flash I saw, I saw Diana and then I saw a flash, none aw donna leave from go back. To the west side. He also said several times before the explosion, Debbie region Donna had approached him, torturing, Debbie rigs struck said he'd give it some thought: no came back late and while he was still thinking about, and they said what we Debbie said: I've gotta call at massey. Now in this is a published article. I've got some additional items. I want you to I'm going to put in a truck to get more insurance on. I don't care what those items were about to one gonna just be the truck so mess he's telling this too. He told us the eighty eighty makes like a three page report. Becker's compelled and this time he turned over this report about massey to the defence darling is now represent by another attorney, so this attorney and the innocents west innocence project they get copies of this report massey. His also goes to see micrograms by the way ass. He said this was to thirty

two thirty in the morning around he'd been called up there on now kind of a dispute he was having with another woodcutter up there. You figure it out to thirty and finally, it goes off at four o, seven, the first trailer, so he sees this flash that is throwing at the trailer two thirty and then at four o, seven and finally goes off. So it's a lot more than forty minutes, which I think it would have needed without the catalyst of a fireball. Alright massey goes to see MIKE mcgraw on my face in vietnam in charge mean this guy former criminal ex convict, and makes leary, I mean and solely stars, so we can do and when the sky, unless you you'll schema polygraph, so they polygraph him and he passes it star, still cherry this guy, and so they hire the number one is never one polygraph expert in

I've ever heard of the gun aimed trawls. Hans H, o n t s these, I think, based on of Oregon. They fly him in two into polygraph and massey. massey passes again. What I had said ties in pretty well with a few days I I'm in the immediate aftermath of this explosion. The kansas city, police departments set up blockades. On north south lanes of seventy one going by this site to try it, interview to find people who may have, driven by the site the ninety de explosion, to see what they do, what they had seen if they can many information about what was actually going on at night. They. I don't know twenty or more, maybe maybe twenty or more people, remembered going by that night and seen certain things, for example, one thing several people saw was the hood on Debbie, rigorous pickup truck was was open in the station wagon was parked the opposite direction. They were just side by side underneath neat underneath he's very bright lights and

like they were working on the engine now was the impression people got in these people. They got the impression was a mechanic, but three of these passer, buys, was column, passer, buys, who told cuffs that, sometime after it o clock. They saw ivy w on the west side now, monica stanza had left a tow truck whether vidalia around nine o clock, because her carved wooden started more in a v now three of these passer buys or seen a v w again back at the site to one. more passer. Vice report is seen to female guards standing outside of the station wagon and waller. People in station wagon like to people in a station wagon. So that's for people There are seen there. The rig I always said they were the only to their that night

Donna went off on the deal and they told the other guy to go home and then they hired they brought in the other guard and only kept him an hour. Then it was just the two of 'em him on the east side and her on the west, passer, visor, seen up to four people in their seen the visa back on the scene, so this It ties in me very much with what had massey inseparable in about seeing this Donna Cassandra the east side flash in a flash of goin off toward the trailer It very much fits together to me about what went on up there that night well, Brian shivered ass. I say they scrap for metal, richard richard brown. Richard remembers, drop anymore about six thirty Brian did that ninety doesn't remember, but he does remember coming home and there are people there who remembered to about it. In thirty coming home. Drunk you flops down on a sofa tries to go to sleep, putting his girlfriend who five months pregnant and sleeping upstairs. She come

seven joined him on the silver they talk for a while no she's five months. Pregnant she's not allowed to sleep in the same room Brian so she knows that she has done get out of there by three someone. Three o clock rules around she cheeses. She heads back instead of leaving Brian on the sofa then. The next thing this this woman knows is dead. She, being awakening, he never buddy leave evacuate the neighborhoods going door to door. Copying you're worried about explosion. Explosion, onawandah word about that, but also about main lines: break in gas, gas explosions, underground brien's up there is still asleep at seven locker shell, when she comes up biggest development. In the case, two thousand and twelve, the. U s supreme court, in the case called of miller since alabama that it was unconscious two additional too citizens to him

and sentencing of life without parole them to minors and since Brian was a minor at the time of the explosion. He was an entire to a re sentence. Recent hearing and he was brought from Didn't government agreed in eight needs circuit court of appeals agreed he could get and you get a new hearing. and Becker hadn't vector had no objection to brighten was brought from mom therapies century and pine, not kentucky the c c, a lever worth a detention centre run by remaining under the administered. The: u S, marshall service, run by the correctional corporation murder, so you ve brought out there. nine months ago now recent should have should have already happened, but one of the states there were reasons our government in care very much about it, was there's only thirty. Eight people on the federal system who were sentences, juveniles, two men tory life without parallel, but the states there

twenty two hundred in the states here. One of the states Louisiana had three hundred and twenty five of these cases, these two she's to love, to try kids as adults, they loved it from london from consecration murder for sure so Louisiana. They petition supreme court saying that Miller wasn't retroactive, so and court only meant for to go forward. These twenty two hundred born state presence. They stay exactly their status. Doesn't change in only for those the wheat louisiana prohibited from showing mandatory licences without rob backers use that, as a pretence, even would know he already agreed to give Brian recently circuited studies entitled to no objection. Youth strategy reaches to delay. brian sentencing, say: well, let's see what the supreme court's rules

case. Who is universal mongering the judge? guy down the one who did the habeas corpus, denial hague gave a stay, and in the outcome of this case well couple of weeks ago, the supreme court ruling this kind of hasty way, I'm isla fashion. We thought we thought they would and they said it was retroactive. They had one great remedy for louisiana: big concern about retrying three and twenty five guys parole em. You know no retrial, even though that decisions come down, we haven't judge guideline hasn't issued a new date for the recently, so we don't want When that's gonna baby, don't I expect it will be. expect set a date somewhere around you know. Women such somewhere in the spring and in Becker or brian attorney will what more time seems like always investigation, and no new game must stay of stay day thirty day sixty days in, but

sometime in two thousand and sixteen I would expect from this recently seen to take place and one one of the things it's posted in title money for british cindy shorter than account mcallister law from his post, entitle her to discovery for exam the steel J report. We were talking about it. We never did finnish when many appointed. This does attorney from the criminal division to do them. Investigation What will they issued? The report saying that the agent had done nothing improper They also said there were two other unbeknown to the vestry. At the time there were two other perpetrators. name's rejected, so If we could only know the names of those two people whom I have a, suspicion or the two guards, stood a guard I could be wrong about data- could be too more people. Marble but nonetheless, come down? If there's they know about these two people? What was their role in this

we talk about mitigation. Maybe these to play the prime. Ruinous they won't Alice who they are they not called a grand jury to indict these two initiatives, two thousand and eleven. This trip. What came out and now here we are five years down the road and nothing's happened in these two other people Do you think she's entitled to know you know their names and to see the under an unrelated twenty page report that the government investigation from the deal jape published about their re investigation. The case and other kinds of discovery, but but she sulphur hasn't gotten any discovery at all. In this you know what great mitigating factors could be the fact. Brien's innocent that's a great mitigating factor, Becker will say This is not a retrial this is a recent in this matter. Guilty. Just give a different sons and then cindy on our side will say this man's here's the mitigating thanks, his you know his more button.

like to say- and I can make quite a case that these innocent whether that'll be allowed. I dont know. Is it the same judge, that's presiding over this case since the beginning, young guy ton, he still is even though, is on senior sat a status now. Should recuse himself he couldn't get which doubtless he switched himself out. I know it's, I couldn't I couldn't- and nobody else can tell you what judge guy tonnes thinking about what you do gives no sign of giving up. The case stated for our final edition of the fire fighter case were Erin? I will analyze a lot of the avenue in situations that you just heard. Thank you for listening

the. In the late. Sixteen hundreds, the coast of north america, became a hotbed of piracy, but american its were much more than just armed robbery of the high seas. They were also crucial figures in the growth of the thirteen colonies. That would eventually become the united states, I lindsey grant the hosts of wondering, show american history tellers. We take you to the events times and people that shaped america and americans. Our values are struggles and our dreams.

in our latest series. We take you back to the so called golden age of piracy and review the true stories behind such mythical figures as black beard and captain Kidd loose. to the age of pirates by following american history, tellers on apple, podcast, amazon, music or wherever you get your pot casts within one? eagerly and ad free by joining one replace an apple pon casts or the one rehab