June 5, 1983. Chino Hills, California. The Ryen family consisted of Douglas, Peggy, Jessica and Joshua. They had invited Joshua's friend, Christopher Hughes, to stay the night. The next day after Chrs hadn't returned, his father visited the Ryen home to look for him. Soon after, he would make a terrible discovery. Sometime during the night the Ryens and his son had been attacked and all had been killed save for Joshua. An investigation turned up a suspect in Kevin Cooper. He had recently escaped from prison and had been hiding in a house just 125 yards away from the Ryen's home. He was arrested in Santa Barbara seven weeks after the murders. But many questions remain even after his conviction. Was evidence planted against him? Why couldn't Joshua Ryen reliably say who attacked him? Was there any truth in a story of three white men committing the crimes? There were multiple weapons used in the attacks. Join us as we discuss this controversial case and attempt to figure out who was responsible for the Chino Hills Massacre.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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case is a bridge, the murder of a family and friend, it's possible wrongful can action going to give our usual disclaimer of we do follow narratives we are not advocates we're going to tell the story based on evidence so fear familiar with this story and you are on why side or another. While He may not like what we have to say because we're not on a side where we talk about tonight and while tonight we're talking about that, no hills massacre, also known as the Kevin cooper case. Some of you probably know the true crime garage covered this a while back, but hey we're, not gonna. Let that stop right yet yesterday, when there are like twenty true crime, pied gas, if we I heard something and then they date or vice versa. We get a bunch of emails. Why
you, copying them or why are you just doing whatever they do? We stop getting those messages I gave you keep up with what when covered in what hasn't. So I just happened to go out and look and saw that they had covered it back in june or january, something well it's a case that definitely needs coverage. Let's start with talking about the family, the ryan's the parents were franklin and peggy ryan. They had met at an alumni reunion at polymer in nineteen. Seventy. They were married on December twentieth, nineteen, seventy franklin was a former marine and military policeman, and he was a farmer Peggy ryan was a chiropractor just like her mother was she opened up her own practice and her husband franklin even joined her at that a clinic for a while in santa Anna California. They were and moving after peggy became pregnant and open
a clinic in olympia, washington. They also in two horses: they bought their first to array. In horses. Soon after moving there and then it seem like I was their hobby. I think they had up to five horses, and their neighbours warrant exactly fans of them living where they whereat with this whole small farm in the backyard so though end up moving to that no hills area, but they were living. Santa anna and more residential area, so yeah Thing so he started to have some issues, these horses were very expensive for them, which meant that they saw their prior home in santa ANA their practice. Wasn't doing very well. I guess. Now they ended up moving to chino hills and they had a five acre property with a hilltop ranch. It seem like they had different price breeze. They had these horses. I think they had. This idea
they were really going to expand and branch out things didn't quite go there way, so they ended up with. The the home in chino hills. Is that correct, yeah, the nice home and chino hills is a very nice area. So not too bad. Now is a three bedroom. to bath house family room had jacuzzi right out. the master bedroom. So this point, as I said, she had been pregnant twice. They had two children, one was a daughter, jessica and one was a sun joshua, and this too hills mood happen in nineteen seventy five out. There is in that other people had these arabian horses, so they were around people that render the same thing that they were. I guess that fit their lifestyle, let's go to the time of the murders. Saturday june. Fourth, nineteen, eighty three, the ryan's
the tag along which was eleven year old, Chris Hughes, he was a friend of Josh's because there weren't that many kids around, even though Josh was eight at the time, I'm his friend was eleven and they spent time together and he demanded that Chris come over and spend the night at night. He was just very adamant because he wanted to hang out with his friends and on fourth, the ryan's and Chris Hughes went to a potluck barbecue dinner with a bunch of other, avian horse owners and their families there. actually at the home of george and valerie blade they'll stay there until at least nine thirty and then no return home back to their house and that's the last time anyone's really hurt from them, so they believed that the ryan's arrived home at about nine thirty, so the following day, remember,
Chris used is going to stay the night with josh at the right and home and the next day his mother is looking for him. So she calls. But she can't give you an answer. I think line, was actually busy, and so she goes over to the house. You know she doesn't. She doesn't get an answer, so she leaves, but then later her husband christmas day add, goes and checks out. The house more, he looks in and he sees the body of his son. And he also sees Josh josh is the only one who appears to be alive. He tries to give attention and says: can you please let me in but Josh can't speak his? Mouth is really very can't, speak and he's obviously been traumatized and brutalized and so Chris, his dad breaks breaks in
He checks his son and his son is deceased. Josh is a pair They barely alive and miss use goes further into the house. He tries to call for help, but the phones not working. You assumes the lines bank. and he ll go over to a neighbour's house seeking help and call the police from there. The police will arise. I've they will say there are four: do you always get on arrival but, though, have four or five paramedics working on jobs? and they will airlift him to the nearest hospital, the father. the mother and their son were on the matter. A bedroom and jessica was on the floor in the hallway just outside that bedroom, now franklin, he was,
The only grown man in the house and he was found on the bed. He has some sense of wounds, but most of the wounds are to his head. We ve been kind of assume that he was the first one attacked, because he would obviously be the biggest threat, to any assailant that's coming into the home. So he was caught off guard. Possibly he was asleep in bed when this person came in and attacked franklin Doug. He had thirty seven wounds, peggy had thirty three jessica had forty six and Chris Hughes had twenty five. a lot of these are a mix of hatchet or chopping blows and then stab wounds or slicing wounds.
There were at least to if not three weapons use any attack, so we can assume a hatchet we can assume a knife and possibly either ice pick or a screwdriver. Joshua ryan was flown by helicopter to loma. And a university hospital? And when he went there there is a clinical social worker who worked with him to try and get some information and what he did was he had a chart. He would ask Joshua appoint at words or numbers on that chart because he still couldn't speak. So by using this system he was information out of joshua. That's pretty important because he's the only survivor. One of the questions was according to the social worker
he said he asked joshua how many people there were an joshua appointed to three. He then asked him if they were mail and Josh pointed to yes. So then he asked him if they were black and he pointed to know so- he's taking him through these questions to get a clear picture of who the attacker or attackers may have been. He got out joshua that there were three of them and that they were. And that they were all men, a county sheriffs, pity from san bernardino by name of urban dale. Sharp, also Oh interviewed joshua, and this was on june fifth, nineteen. Eighty three, he said It took place in the emergency room and lasted about fifteen minutes joshua.
indicating that there were three white men in the house when the killings occurred. Are you realize Josh's had his head bashed in and his throat slit so he's not in a good way he's gone to something dramatic and he was lying on the floor. Looking at his dead mother for up to eighteen twelve hours. This is a really critical time for him to relay information, so they can catch the perpetrators At the same time, it might be a little bit traumatic for him to relay any information, just an hour later with the same county, sheriffs, deputy Joshua indicated that the three men were hispanic and I I get it eight year old might not be able to comprehend races well when it comes to white or hispanic, but it will
We said that joshua could have been referring to three hispanic guys that would hang around ranches or help out around the neighbourhood, and he was familiar with these guys, so it's possible he might be referring to them. The deputy goes on to say that the three male suspects were not known to the victim according to the information and got. But again, if you look at what kind of injuries that Joshua, sustained. You wonder, is information correct? Is it accurate we just don't know all we know is- is that he's maintaining that there were three men? That's that certain. now. One of the motives that might This in his case is it could have been a robbery, gone wrong right wing. Go into the house and they look
they don't really see anything missing, it's hard to tell because I don't know what's there, but it's not ransacked it's not rifled through Anders money. That's left out and in view. There's weapons in the house they haven't been taken. Don't think they know, for sure, is that one of the cars that belong to the ryan's is missing. It's a station wagon as they through the house they, sir to investigate by it Unfortunately, around seventy officers enter the home. That's a lot We talk about preserving the crime scene, how important it is to document everything, but we ve seen other cases where a lot of officers enter a home and
Sir, to wonder if their trampling on evidence keep in mind, this is the early eighties. So they're not thinking dna yet, but we still have fingerprints, we have footprints. We have blood evidence, there's a lot of other things that should be retained and not tainted. So it's not exactly lockdown, so they will be collecting blood looking for any kind of fingerprints, shoeprints weapons, any items that may have been discarded by the killer or killers they do end up with amount of evidence, I would say in this case there were two guns in the bedroom:
with a loaded rifle and a loaded pistol around the bed. So if you think about the number of victims and how Doug was an ex marine and then you have joshua saying there were multiple assailants, while how did they get the drop on this family? How did they overpower doug and how did doug? Why was Doug not able to get to these weapons they're kind of putting this together, and I think it makes sense that, with the number of weapons used the number of victims, it definitely suggests that there's multiple assailants here. Let's me be clear, though: the weapons that you're describing were weapons that belonged in the home. Yes, so this would be something that Doug would defend himself with and they were within arms reach of the bed, but he was unable to get to,
the weapons that were used against the family, though weren't guns they weren't firearms. They were a hatchet, a knife and as far as as who got, you know how someone might have gotten the drop on this father. Who is full marine, it makes sense if he's asleep, and if you take into account that occur People that new this family, they didn't lock their doors and joshua, says that they heard screaming from the bedroom and not What brought him and jessica and chris up there so it will only be dug and peggy in the bedroom, so at the scene of the crime they don't find any the weapons used in the murders. They do find some bloody footprints and
We sleep our blood evidence on the walls and on the floor on the bed, but nothing that's really pointing to anybody. They will end up finding a hatchet. That's been discarded along the road outside of the house, so whoever committed this crime with the hatchet threw it out the window as they're driving off. There are several bloody articles of clothing found at the crime scene. There's a blue shirt and a hand, shirt, that blood spots on them and both of those were found where they would have been discarded away from the house yeah, but obviously there blood arm so probably connected to the crime. They also found about ten or more hairs in jessica's hand,
brown or ish hairs, but she was clutching them in her hand. So, possibly she reached out and grabbed hair from somebody, maybe silent, of course, in eighteen, eighty three, they don't have dna testing. So when they test blood they discover, if it's a, if its be, if it's a b of its oh, they can then test and see in a where this blood may have come from. They can also do a test to find out the race the person whose blood it was police wall also search a nearby house. It's neighbour's house. They, use it seasonably, so there there that often they also rented two other people to use their first initial, Search the house, they don't come up with much and being that it's a next.
Your neighbor's house. They might not know what to be looking for, so We call this the lease house or the vacant house, but it's not an abandoned home. It actually has a functioning phone and things inside that home the police will come across a shoe for a hatchet which remarkably matches Has it that they would find on the road? They will all. I'll find tobacco loose tobacco and cigarette butts. They found a sheath for a buck knife and a blanket or sheet in the closet. Now it's hard to tell if these things are connected to the crime or not, because this is a hundred twenty five yards away but
going with the hatchet being used in the murder and then finding a sheet for the said hatchet. It's kind of a tie in here, but they'll start sort of putting it together of what they think might have happened. yet almost appears if someone or some people that have been in this other house went from house to the ryan's house and attacked them. There are reasons for this. One is between the houses. There are these burs better in the snow on the ground and some them ended up on her knee jessica shirt and not to get to graphic, but at some point during the crime, her shirt have been lifted and a knife is used on her and whoever it done that had left some burs underneath her shirt, but these birds, are on the ground there between the two houses, feathers. There's shrubbery
we and just all kinds of prickly things out here cause it's sort of in the wilderness and california out there it's sort of in the desert. There was a six pack of beer, inside the ryan's fridge one of the cannes had been removed and then what, the other cans was actually jangling off the edge of that shelf in the fridge, and it was body, while they ended up finding an empty can from that six pack in between the two homes, so whoever's done. This has obviously tracked burst from between the houses, drink, beer and used items from this home. At the murder scene yeah, they asked people that lived at the other house. We will call the lease house they verified the,
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calm suggestion why code jen, why there essentially to different parts of the house, one of them they describe as the bill bia bedroom after woman been staying there, and this is the that they really focused on because it appeared to be the one that was used by whoever had staying in the home unlawfully. I guess you could say and they did use luman all in the bathroom of the bill, bia bedroom, but it was odd because the luminous hit was kind of on the walls. of the shower. So wasn't like all over the floor of it around the sides and just to be clear. luminol doesn't indicate blood necessarily. It says that it could be blood if someone used say bleach in that shower and tried to clean off the walls.
that would cause luminal to to luminous as well. You have to do a separate test to find out whether it was actually blood or not they also use loom at all in the bathroom sink and they get a big reaction there and they They believe that someone rinsed blood off of themselves in the sank they also cause, did hairs from the shower Some of the hairs looked kind of old, and some of the hairs looked fresher and they kind of separated them out, because some appeared to be too old to have been connected to this case. but then some look like they very well could have been when they look at them under a microscope. They start to look like they match a couple of the victims from the rhine house, also discover in the closet of the bilby a bedroom. One is a blanket and
They find seamen on it. They also find a bloody rope inside the closet. There are also some footprints. and some cigarettes and some tobacco. Night of the murder. There are patrons at a local bar who will claim that they witness three men, three white men that were being a little rowdy, come in order drinks and they have blood on their clothing. I think that's that's a little weird for some did you just walk into a bar covered in blood, I would just assume that you would wash off or you wouldn't go. Public area blood all over you but hey. This is whether claiming may see well a woman the bar who one of the men seemed interested. In even pointed it out to him said: hey you have blood on
You and she said his reaction was such that he didn't know that he was covered in blood yeah. I know some people hunt and clean animals whatever. So it might not be a big deal, but I'm dead. Seeing this sticks out pretty badly and They weren't the only people to see three. Men in the area. No, there were other witnesses that claim they saw three white men driving a station wagon, we have a husband and wife who said it, a group of men. The husband says there were three or for the wife. Actually, I think, says: there's four the wife's, not driving another. Witness said that they saw the station wagon driving around the next day and we have a third witness who says that
station wagon almost crashed into her, and she was driving with like her grandmother and they wrote down the plate from the station wagon later on, the police will broadcast a description of the car with the licence. number and this witness will claim that it's the same one that she wrote down and she will testify to it the station wagon that belong to the regions will not be found for several days up to a week later and its found in long beach, which is over an hour, drive away from china and isn't west of their yad. Theirs each there. Their influence on the shoreline, whereas chino is chino, hills is in the debt so it's way more east and depending on traffic, it's quite a drive, so the three white men that were spotted by different witnesses in a bar, or indeed station wagon. That's now This ends and he remembered joshua described. Seeing
We white men in the house when the attacks happened, so something stunning happen, So another witness comes forward who doesn't just a story, she has evidence, so this is on You ninth, her name is ann roper and she says that her boyfriend came home late at night wearing bloody overalls and that he took off the overalls through in the closet she had put out a tan t shirt for him to wear that night and he wasn't wearing the t, shirt and if you remember, a T. Shirt was found at the crime scene happens, be the color tan or brown so we have diana saying that her boyfriend is part of a murderous gang like canada, biker gang
and around the time of the murders? He comes home, all bloody, so she calls the police and actually gives them this bloody overall. Jostle claim that there, the bloody hatchet found on the road matches a hatchet is missing from the garage, but remember the hatch. It was actually taken from the lease house and it didn't belong to her or her boyfriend. Lee furrow for all her boyfriend. I claim that he had been part of this gang where he killed a girl, cut up her body and threw her into the Kim river, and then he took part deals turning overstates evidence and gotta reduce sense liese, not best guy on on this planet and has
white friends that he hangs out with so he's kind of looking like a good suspect here also. It said that the leader of the gang he's part of had a bad deal with peggy and. Some disagreement over horses or whatever it may be, and if that's true, then there is possible out of here a man by the name of coon, who was An associate of furrows seemed to give I guess the story of how all this went down I mean he saying he was essentially the driver and that the two other guys, one of whom was Lee. Furrow went into that home to collected dat. and it was connected to either the brand or the aryan brotherhood, and so. he said they went to a residence in chino and he said the other
guy's got out and they said there. Were inside the home for about ten to fifteen minutes, and he said that one. The guy's was carrying two axes or hatchets and that they have loves on, and when they came back out. one of them said that the debt was officially collected. I would say this is further corroboration that maybe there were three men that went into that home and murdered that family right. My my problem with the story is We know the hatchet was from the other house, but it makes you wonder why you would have two people coming forward with worries that seem to indicate that Lee furrow wasn't in these murders, a white man absolutely and what the witness testimony joshua it fits and the station wagon, which we talked about being found in long beach, was found not very far from his stepmother's house.
I'm right here like Joshua's weapon, testimony we have three white guys. We have a stolen station wagon, they would have driven away in the station wagon and his stepmom lives where the station wagon was found. This is open and closed right. This is, is all we need. Well, if that's the case, then these overalls would be probably the most important evidence right aside from the testimony, I would think be linked to the crime. Unfortunately, unfortunately, these overalls are placed into a dumpster Well, that's not where you put evidence for a crime. I think the answer is because the police already knew who committed these murders and it wasn't three white men. Oh ok! Well now I'm confused
remember earlier, we were talking about how there is evidence that the killer or killers may have traveled between this lease house and the ryan's home while it turns out- and I think part of this is due to phone call- walls phone records. There was a man staying in that this house unlawfully yeah I was going to say you wasn't exactly stay, you asshole up there. So we have a man named Kevin cooper and he happened to
escape from a minimum security. Prison just close by and Kevin himself says that he went to this house and stayed there for several days and actually made a couple of phone calls to a female friends of his asking them for money. So we have an escaped convict who puts himself at the crime scene in a house. One hundred and twenty five yards away literally puts himself there the day of murders he kind of does he admits to being there, but he doesn't say anything incriminating really because he ends up talking the last phone call. He makes that night and once he saw by this woman that she's not willing to help him, which is what all the women have been telling a many calls. He says he leaves and goes to mexico. He doesn't admit to going to the ryan's house
He said he could see that house from the room. Staying in. In fact he said after the first night, he ended up holding up in the clause, because he was worried that someone would spot him be felt exposed in that room. He said that he didn't leave seamen on that blanket. He said that he didn't use the bathroom remember. We talked about men are being used in the a bathroom He said he didn't use accepted test the shower. They did find his footprint in the shower, so he's lying about everything in that house, but ok, we got it, He was there and he was staying in the wasn t use the bathrooms him saying that he never went up to. That house means that he
He drove away in that car either at least that's what he's insinuating. Now, here's a little background on Kevin cooper. He was actually from pennsylvania. He was charged with multiple counts of burglary and He had a pretty long rapture one point he is accused of. holding a woman at knifepoint and raping her, but before he can be charge for these crimes? He actually escapes custody from pennsylvania and fleas across country to California, there. He takes on a fake name and he will stop. breaking into houses again, and you will be caught for this and arrested and put in this minimum security prison? Now they don't know who he is because he's
using his real name. So they don't know that he has any ties back to pennsylvania for an attempted, rape and kidnapping or charges pending. Since it's a minimum security, prison and the budgets for the prison system are low. Apparently there is a hole in the fence, because that's just a thing and he's able to escape this prison and walk away. But again is not some elaborate plot here. He litter we can walk away and he crosses a field and ends up at the least house now he says he is therefore very time and he leaves before the murders happen, and he makes way down to mexico? We know this is true, because in may
go. He will actually make some more phone calls asking people for help and money, but they don't oblige him so june. Second, is when he escapes the california institute for men in chino, sheriff floyd ted well, san bernardino county says: Mister cooper had eluded the search cooper had gone on to meet a couple who, own day, thirty two foot, sailboat owen, an angelica handy, the the these. Yet this was on june, ninth of nineteen, eighty three. So, just what less than a week after the murders, which makes sense because he's fled chino and gone south, and you know just so. You know you know from l a to the mexican border is less than a three hour drive, but if you're going
two taken account you're, going from chino hills to long beach and then south. It's like a four five hour drive, but he has days to do that. but we know he does make a phone call pretty early on and the couple the handicap they just drive him as having some items which are least it investigators sound an awful lot like the that were missing from the woman who actually lived in the room he had stayed in so he had take silver items. Those were some blue gloves and he the reason he took them is because, when he made the track to that house, he actually fell oh and when he landed on his hands, the injured them a little bit. So he wanted- m gloves or when he walked around. in that area. Soon casey fell again. He wouldn't hurt his hands. Well, he had set off with the handicap. He's met them in in sonata, which is a little resort town in bar california, and they
eventually leave port and head up to santa cruz island, which is twenty five miles south of santa Barbara. And then they will go on to santa Barbara and this is around July thirtieth- because on July thirty, if a woman reports that cooper- that's- who they end up, arresting that this man had attempted to rape. Her at knifepoint, her boat was docked
right by the hand is now ass, he ran, he threw a knife into the water which police did recover and he jumped into the water and tried to swam away, but was apprehended. So we have Kevin cooper who, as multiple allegations of rape, kidnapping, holding people at knifepoint, break ins, robberies all kinds of stuff long rapture here and he admits to being in the least house right next to wear. These murders happened. seems like pretty good suspect, but he's not three white bed. Now. What does tie cooper here is amiable himself.
I saying he was there, ah the tobacco that they found. They say it's a roll right tobacco, which is specific to prisoners in the prison system. It's a free tobacco that they give out. Ah also, these footprints There may be a probe head shoe, which is the standard issue in a prison. So we can have some things tying him to this, murder scene and the shoe has a unique diamond tread pattern. They find this print both at the ryan's house and at the lease house so this is a little odd that we have this other suspect, but I mean honestly, a guy escapes from prison, and literally goes to wear them. or seen, is we have evidence tying these two locations together,
I understand why the cops are now saying that Kevin cooper is their prime suspect. The neighborhood absolutely believes that he's the prime suspect because of all the evidence they found and at the time early eighties asia escaped convict black man. Tempers rise They had tested all the blood a little bit of the blood and have not belonging to the victims. There is a drop of blood found. on the whole way. Wall which was open the door to the ryan's master bedroom where the parents stayed, it was shown to have come from. African american mail, which of course This is consistent with cooper. They also discovered through subsequent testing that
couldn't match its anyone else other than an african american. So these various testing methods, including electoral for rhetoric, testing they also, tat s the saliva on the cigarette, but they all testa the blood at the home and a lot of stuff is pointing back to cooper. The defence even tries to test this blood drop, which of course, since it's a blood drop, there's not a lot of blood there. They use a transfer and test. They were hoping that would show that it wasn't cooper, who was the donor of this drop? But this transfer and test showed that the blood drop was consistent with coopers genetic profile. The blood drop did not
from any of the victims, all additional testing on this drop, it all lead, backed cooper, the hatchet that they had found was tested. Of course it had blood consistent with the victim, is there were hairs on that hatchet? The hair is that were found on it were tested and they were consistent with the hairs of both dug and Josh ryan. There were harris taken from the stolen vehicle there were hairs collected from ask as hand there were test run on the cigarette boats that were found both in the station wagon and in that in the least house? Also in the station wagon you had rolled cigarette buts and then manufactured cigarette buts and possibly bloodstains and both the front and back seat. So that would again point to multiple assailants, because you have blood and the front
back and two types of cigarettes smoked not impossible that one person could have gone in the back seat to get some things drops of blood they gonna Phronsie smoked a cigarette found another cigarette and smoked at too, but it is one more thing points to multiple people, there was a missing pack of cigarettes from the house. Now there hair that was found inside of the station wagon was believed to be a pubic hair from an african american male. The saliva tests that were done on to the cigarette parts from the station wagon were free. A non secrete her, which fit Kevin cooper. Data shows that only about twenty percent- the population are nancy creeters, so he's not excluded by any of this evidence that were finding and the blood type.
Of the person who smoke the manufactured cigarette but was tie bay, which is also consistent with coover, so the cops apprehend. In santa Barbara trying to swim away, and this woman that reported the rape will see a wanted picture of Kevin cooper and notify the police- hey. That's the guy That way, police will know. This is the guy wanted for the murders, because right now all they haven't, for is this arrest for this rape up in santa Barbara, Oh this woman is now able to connect him to these murders, so the police will bring him back down a chino hills and they will start putting this together. Now Kevin cooper will deny any involvement with the
murders or anything with this crime, but he does admit to being in the least house now, he'll go to trial for this crime and he's charged with four counts of murder and one count of attempted murder, because Joshua lived, He remembered. Joshua statements were initially three white men and in heat gave. This statement of multiple assailants to up to five people between the counselor investigators nurses, what what have you while now he's changing his statement? saying that he actually really didn't see. The assailants sigh shadow and he was hit from behind and he doesn't know and its possible that he was referring to
these three guys that he knew from the neighbourhood or something to that effect when he was saying three people, but he really is back peddling from his initial statements and that could make sense because the type injuries he sustained especially to the head, he could have merged two events together, even though they don't belong together, he could have. these three guys that were in the area into the crime scene? It's like how reliable is his memory at that point, but the police, investigators, I have a lot more evidence on Kevin cooper I don't really need joshua's testimony here. They don't need his statements. They have Kevin Cooper's blood droplet at the scene of the crime. They have this hatchet sheath at the house and they have the shoe print shoe prints a big deal to them because
its approach head print and its literally on a sheet murder, scene and they're saying well. The only shoe that could have made this specific, unique diamond. You know print is worn by convicts in prison and the shoes only available to convicts and prison big thing that prosecutor talks about yards a pro cared dude shoe now protest are actually readily available to a lot of people. They are standard issue at a at a prison, but the way the prosecutor Sound only prisoners would be wearing this, so we have a coincidence here. We
I have something that lines up with Kevin, but the way prosecutor frames it he's wrong. Anyone can buy the shoe while in the warden she tries in forming sheriff about this and she makes several attempts by its it's like they're, not real receptive to her and, of course, during court, especially after court. They make this statement about how They never said it was only a prison shoe they make. It seem like it wasn't an important points, but I don't know reactor was he made. It seem like yeah, well that print right there, that's from a prisoner and who our our prisoner in this case it's it's like this absolutely proves term him, but one more question about an hour ago, gonna go soft on you. If they had just said this same print was found over at the least house, and then it was
here at the ryan's house. That's a connection working in this whole prison thing, it really isn't important. I get that, but They made it seem important at the trial in and for them to back off of that and act like it wasn't well yeah. It But you made it seem important. You know It's important really is that they connect this shoeprints with having been both at the least house and at the ryan house, and that's really the point they should have been making. They also go onto basically discredit the warden and say that she wouldn't really know what standard issue at the prison which I think is funny because she's the warden they are I say that she never tried to call them, although she has phone records proving she had so little disagreement on this whole shoe thing. I think it's important to bring it up. I think that
if, if issue print does match whatever the standard issue is it's it's a connection, They also collected evidence from that lease home. They collected a bunch of cigarette butts claim that they did not enter these things into evidence right away and then, when they collected the car, all of a sudden there is more cigarette, but set are found in the state. wagon, whereas they only found one cigarette. But at the least house it's considered that they might found a lot more cigarette, but at the least house, They just never entered them and evidence and then planted them in the station wagon least set the argument that they're going to make. Another argument they make. Is that testing and blood revealed that there was eighty a present, If you recall the Steven avery case, early on when making
First came out: there was a big deal made of o while the seal is broken on this blood vile and it appears to have been punctured and blood. Implanted from that, but of course, as we know now, that's not really true half so, but in the cabin cooper case, e t a was a big deal and they were trying their best mean the defense to test everything and try and figure out whether they could discover the presence of Edi T. A wilderness happens in two thousand and four on the he'll when they're doing a test on the ten shirt that was found at the scene of close to the property and assure had blood from both franklin, the father and Kevin cooper. Now the problem with this whole deal testing on the shirt as they say that Kevin coopers, but has eighty tee an franklin's
does not it's really hard to hash this out, because on the face of it, looks like they ve pulled blood from a vile and deposited it or planted it the shirt back in the nineteen eighties and now testing, the shirt in two thousand for work and the two thousands wow looks like they plan of blood on it but each year is actually found in a lot of common products and the testing of gdp is not zack science, so when you're testing blood for the presence of it? How much are you looking for? How much proves that it was actually from a vile as opposed to a low amount? It's almost inconsequential that what you can't make a lotta determinations but still
something the defence is going to point out because they wanted to have this shirt tested. exonerate or is it to exclude kevin, and then it comes back, Kevin's dna on the blood droplets. But then there is http, there's blood droplet, so even when they get the testing done when it comes back to their client, they want to see. I this isn't him the other problem with each year since its use to keep things in a liquid state, its often contaminating labs hey, you say contaminating well, if you're looking specifically were eighty eight chances are, you might find it? But let's, let's really finished with the true before we move on in and talk about? The subsequent that were run later, the trial is not good for giving cooper because That is why we had other suspects, weirdly furrow and the other two men Kuhn and the other guy they didn't find. Evidence from them
the crime scene, they didn't find any blood from them. They didn't find any fingerprints or shoeprints. They could be tied to these guys and they didn't find multiple footprints from these multiple assailant. All they had was evidence of someone who went back and forth the least house to the ryan's house, and they found blood from calving cooper there's this idea that one person could not have killed multiple victims, especially when have franklin whose ex marine and has guns near by and they they claim that Kevin Cooper was a hundred fifty five pounds and could not have overtaken him
but I mean when I was in the military, in basic training. I weighed one hundred and fifty three and if you give me a hatchet and tell me to go attack a guy, that's laying in bed, I think I could get the drop on him at one hundred and fifty three pounds. Ah and then peggy you'll hear that peggy was a Strong woman, but a grown man with a hatchet and a knife. I think you can over power and at night they were attacked when it was bedtime. So one person could do this. And then there's the aspect of multiple weapons were used, so had to be multiple people again. Yes, but weapons were used. I will say that it appears that the hatch it was used first to incapacitate them, and then a knife was used to finish them. off or a screwdriver or ice pick whatever could be up to three weapons here. So
You hit somebody over the head with a hatchet multiple times there not quite dead, and then you come. Can you size their throats or you stab them, and we ve covered cases where one assailant has used multiple weapons right If you recall, we covered the lulu in murder case and the woman in that case too much her fellow employ she did so with six different weapons. So we're looking at this case and I'm thinking one guy- could totally do this and use multiple weapons. This is not impossible hours. very plausible. Yet there's a claim out there that you'll see on especially support sites for having cooper that say how could five people be attacked for them kill
by one person in four minutes? Well, I'm even less define this. It's two adults and three children. Children are in the children, said that they heard screaming and they came to the bedroom to see what was going on, so the two adults had already been dispatched of and in four minutes. Well, how do we know four minutes I mean this is just as arbitrary numb that they ve thrown out. Well, they get it from the medical examiner had said that each of the victims could have been killed, attacked with these weapons and killed within a minute or two. So you know, on the short end, they're trying to say that all of these people could have been dead within four to six minutes whatever, but really, as you said, they could have all been attacked with a hatchet. So maybe the two adults get hit with
hatchet and then are they gonna be fighting anymore after getting hit two or three times in the head with a hatchet? No, no and yes, he has I am to go back and then hit him with the knife or the ice pick em mean remember, it's a buck knife or an ice pick, and these are people that have been disabled because at a hatchet driven through their arms through their heads into their chests. It's it's a violent attack, but you can't defend yourself if you get hit like that, and so when people say oh well, that's not likely. Ah no it's! likely that one person could we'll different weapons, especially if, if you're heading to a house in you bring different weapons with you, why? I don't know I've seen cases were knives break when some was being stabbed with it. If you have multiple weapons, let's say
lose one of em. You still have a weapon. This might just be someone who's well prepared, and I think he s to use both hands like there's these arguments that he's got a hatchet in one hand and a knife and another: no, you hit them with a hatchet, and then you come back with the knife later and later can be a few minutes later. It's ok, you don't have to do. This would have four minutes time span, though the whole argued for that is just stupid to me. They all died within the same timeframe. That's all you really need to know, and you don't have to put time stamp on it, because if one of them died a minute later they're not going to really be able to figure that out from these autopsies there wasn't
a police car showing up five minutes after the attack started. No, it was the next day. So whoever did this had as much time as they needed really. So you can't just say formats. He can't say six months he can say twelve minutes Kevin says that he was on his way to mexico. Yet we have a phone call from the lease house around eight or nine o clock that night, so he literally puts himself there an hour before the murders. If we're going off timeframe most of you know, I've been an audible subscriber for like a decade now audible offers incredible selection of audio books across every genre. I personally love the audible originals. They have everything from top celebrities, renowned experts and, as an audible member, I get access to a growing selection of audiobooks, the originals podcast, it's all included in my membership
yet one title a month to keep and I get to hear exclusive podcast that I can't find anywhere else. I just but the audio book anti social about online extremism, techno utopians and the hijacking of the america conversation, let audible hope you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible calm, slash gaeta BP were text guida, BP, two five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash cheetah, BP or text guida BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, doc, slash w b, the defence tries it's best to point out the problems with the investigation. They try to point out the issues with How you know they had a woman that was sketching out different parts of the crime scene and there were things she didn't. originally that she was asked to go back and look at so
We kind of had this situation where we have shoeprints appearing later and then we the car. When the car was originally search. They didn't find some of the things they found on a subsequent search. It's very much like to every case where there is some doubt here like. Why would they miss this? Why would they miss that and why All of a sudden on this cover outside the house do they suddenly have a shoe print when the and that was sketching. It didn't see it originally. There is some doubt, but try as they might, and there were problems. Investigation. We've already told you. Seventy officers tromp through the scene and even later when they took the house apart, they put all and storage, but there's nothing forensically and about what they did. While this jury probably thinks Ah, there's too much doubt here right, there's reasonable doubt no four one no the true crime genre has kind of altered the way people think about things, and I would
argued. There are way more people today who are worried about sending an innocent person to prison than was the case back the nineteen eighties or nineties. I mean it's changed a lot. I dont think it wasn't told the oj case came along where people really sorry questioning this stuff. So back then, with this trial Kevin cooper guilty you, it was found guilty. I mean in fact they had to move the trial down to san diego, because it was such big news up north. It was being racially charged against him which is sad to see even in a minute, sad to see that as being the primary focus of this case, I just look at you
have a terrible murder that happens and you have an escaped convict. Who is a violent convict, placing himself right next to the murder scene, I think it's pretty easy to understand why he was the focal point of this crime, but when you hear about almost every piece of evidence not being found on the first search but being found on subsequent searches, now puts it into question. If it just one piece of evidence, that's fine, but it's almost every he's of evidence. In this case, you almost feel as if the people are supporting Kevin cooper have a good point. You have two narratives here: you have he's guilty as sin, or he had nothing to do with this and
I I hate it. When I hear people say you know we're we're charging an innocent man with a crime and and we're going to put him to death, he's not innocent, and let's, let's rephrase that we might be charging a man, and with a crime that he is innocent of, but he is not an innocent man and that's the problem with the advocates for him. Is they they paint to be this. This angel, who just was in the wrong place at the wrong time, They skip over a lot of his background, a lot of the things that placed him at this house
He was literally on the run and calling people from the home like that, doesn't really match up, and we know that he we know that the murderer moved from the lease house to the ryan's house because of items that were moved back and forth and the burrs and other things so that really puts the the spotlight on him. But we have this shirt and it's a tan shirt possess shirt. Prison issued. So it's weird that they find this tan shirt. And its coopers blood and franklin's bought on it. And then you have the whole diane roper situation where she saying she gave Lee furrow a tan shirt to wear, and then he comes home and he's not bring it and he takes his cover. All's throws them in the closet,
She turns those over to police and they throw them away here. Have this whole situation of somebody saying This was his shirt and you have in saying that there was bloody cover. All's thou art tossed and if this guy was actually the perpetrator of the crime, we could attested, as our overalls does cover ups, and here we have this tan shirt that does have his blood coopers blood on it, but then you have the whole e d t a or they still want to test the shirt. But now they want to test it for a sweat in the armpits to see. If that matches Kevin cooper right, so Kevin cooper was found guilty. He was sentenced to death by an it would be via gas chamber. But again this case goes to appeal because it is a death penalty case. There are all these questions.
as you know, was he framed, was blood planted. Did they just make him look guilty because he was convenient and was roper just trying to get revenge against a guy that she had gotten tired of. She was done with him and she maybe she wanted revenge against it. Maybe she hated him, and so she can just come up with a story, but then you have coon who supposedly was with furrow, said what he said about that you know it being hit collecting it for some brotherhood, lots of questions the advantage of the heels and then having to re test items over time. Is technology catches up and in the years since the trial they can. Move to dna testing, another issue here with the original investigation? Is the lab tech who found
print evidence and what not he'll go on to steal heroin from the evidence room in its claim that planted evidence against a william richards and another murder trial he ends up getting fired for these things. So stealing heroin and planting evidence, the sheriff he had some stuff on him yeah the sheriff. That was the heavy investigation he was later busted for stealing guns from the evidence, locker then selling them converts getting guns were criminals Then turning round and selling them to criminals, that is my problem, is If I'm going to use all the things you Kevin coopers, wrapped she'd against him his background, his attempted rapes is bad
against and his whole violent history against him Well, I'm going to use that same logic and I'm going to use it against these investigators, they're, stealing heroin and guns and planting evidence. I got a problem here because I'm not going to treat them any differently than Kevin cooper. I think Kevin cooper is the perfect person to commit this crime because of his background and his placement- and I think these guys are the perfect people to plant evidence because they've done it before you're, not a good situation to be in yeah. I I would venture to say that the death penalty was inappropriate. In this case you can say it was a series of violent attacks and a home young people were killed by it. Still there a lot problems here and when I looked at the appeals- and I looked at the filings that we're done. There were a lot of good points.
its rays by the defence, now quite honestly, most of it really doesn't help Kevin. In my opinion, it's like their throwing a bunch of stuff out there to cloud the issue. My test, this test, that blah blah, but all these things- none of them really exclude Kevin they're, just trying to bring up doubt and point the finger somewhere else. Let me go down a less, because there are some things that I think are beneficial two cooper, one is coon's testimony again. He places leaf, sorrow and himself at the crime scene. It's testimony not evidence. There is the question of two different shirts being found. Now we didn't really go into this a lot, but the police supposedly had gotten a blue shirt. The blue shirt fits standard, prison issue, okay, but the this shirt went
saying this and it was bloody right. So if there were two shirts discarded that we're both bloody and both could be tied back to this crime scene, does that indicate multiple attackers? Maybe right We talked about the poor forensics. In this case I mean just taking the cover it was outside the home that had a shoe print on it, I believe, was a partial shoe print Like I said, the woman that was sketching. What she saw didn't see. That till later I mean this goes for a law, the evidence, the tobacco evidence that was found at the least house. It was said that the police, didn't record the evidence in a way that would show that they maintained the same. a number of items they collected throughout. So in other words, yet we found some cigarettes, but then it wasn't wade
It was a record in a way that they can prove that none of it was planted in the car right because, on the first search of the car there some things they didn't find right away. I mean it's it's a car. How do you miss stuff like this, the possible plan, in a blood because of the e t levels. I think the eighty tee is kind of a difficult thing to rectify, because the. Standards for testing would be established by what the fbi I mean any time. I've read anything. you do with http. No one seems to agree. They even had three months of hashing this out for the cooper case. They couldn't come to an agreement of any kind of standards there, In the end, it sounded like t levels were still kind of low, so I dont you you can say it means something in your welcomed that opinion. But it's not anything earth shattering. Also, the deputies claim that they had
gone into the least house before and then when they go in there and they find the tobacco and the hatchet chief, it's gonna figured out that one of the deputies fingerprints was found inside the closet, so they lie, They had been ITALY's house, so are they lying because they didn't have a warrant to go search or are they planting evidence course? The defense is going to take this as Evidence pointing you have joshua ryan's inconsistent recollection of what he saw the night that the attacks happened for it was white men than it was hispanics than it was. I think I saw shadow won't want either even said he saw a puff of hair on the person's head, who had their back to him when he looking in to the master bedroom also had a situation where you know when Kevin cooper was taken in they collected blood from him
and they put it into a vile of blood. A marked it v v to it. Just so happens, years later. They the hairs in from mitochondrial dna testing? Ok, they wanted see who the hairs belong to or may have belonged to. Well Never sent the hairs also sent a sample of the blood that came from the baby to vile because it was marked as watch. This is a sample of it. It's not the whole tube, of course, while they decided, you know this lab person. This scientists decided to test the dna from the blood and found that there were two dna profiles in it, which should not be right if they pulled blood from Kevin cooper, put it in a vile and labeled it, it should be one dna profile. Not to so its impact is the hair was tested, but it came back as the ryan's family so that doesn't exe
glued anyone, that's not from the attacker, but this blood vile has to dna profiles, which means it's been totally tainted, which means that we can believe anything that the they these tests are saying now, because are they using his blood to deposit other places? What are they doing? What this blood vile and it is to profiles, or even if this wasn't malicious, its tainted its contaminated and we can't go with the idea- as if they use blood to plant. You know, they're are sprinkling blood here or there, and then the blood level goes down well now they might have to add other blood to it right, that's the idea. There is also testimony- and this was for trial from an inmate named taylor,
There was saying that he's the one who gave cooper the tennis shoes. There are some issues with this, because his testimony is very inaccurate. Their ties reach as that. Take the kids are the same as some other brand then other times he confuses the two and then he benefited from his testimony Also there is money in plain sight. Now I was actually sitting with, just then when we look this up and is an image from the crime scene. Where you and see money which involves bills. And change stacked up, and it remained in review of whoever committed these murders and it wasn't taken so Kevin cooper who had been making calls asking for help from different women, obviously needed money, but he didn't take any money from the crime scene, which means it. This was collecting a debt. I e some people needed to die. Maybe those people wouldn't have wanted the money,
was in the house. Well, maybe it wasn't kevin cooper so far in all these years, since the trial and everything Kevin cooper remains in prison, any remains on death row in that's because every time that they ve tested anything or you know he's had an appeal to the court things have not worked out for him, but he he has a lot of supporters. Let's talk, though, about what makes them look guilty will first, I I think that he could have done this on his own. They say that the car the keys were in ignition. So why would Kevin go into the house and wipe out a whole family if he was just going to steal a car? While how would he know the keys are in the ignition I mean if I'm going to go, steal a car. I might just go into the house. First
get the keys is not going to assume that there in the ignition it's here nor there to me, yeah it's possible that most criminals would go and check the car first to see it gain access by that doesn't mean that that's what cooper headed do also. Why does he have to worry about just stealing a car, this guy's a violet criminal. What have you decided to just murder the people in the house? Why isn't that brought up as far as the money? That's laying out he just wiped out or family, maybe he's just wanting to get the hell out of there. He doesn't want to stick around because he does murdered people he just wants to flee escaped the scene. I think that a few does wiped out what you think is five including three children, you might not look for money laying out. You might not steal that you might be in a heightened state and want to take off
Now the shirt really bothers me, because we have the blue sure that he should have been wearing but is lost, and then you have the tangier. The tan shirt wouldn't have been prison issue, so it makes more sense that it would belong to Lee furrow. But if I'm gonna go at the leaf furrow idea, he had three guys showing up in their own car, murdering a family and then what none. They're gonna go over to this other house. Next door hang out and then come back and steal. The ryan's car too, yeah. I think this is the most damning thing. Actually I know we could talk about insects and how they found dna that they linked to Kevin cooper after he requested it be tested. But really, I think, the car as the key here, because these guys, if they drove up and a car and did this hit and then left they don't
the ryan's car kevin cooper needs a car He needs that more than anything else. At this point he needs to get out of there lol each is kind of on the way to mexico. So even know Lee furrows stepmom lives in long beach. It makes sense for either one of them to drive their and dump the car. Why is it that he has to drive immediately to mexico? He could have driven over to long beach first yeah. He he has plenty of time to make it to mexico and make that other phone call. I think back to that initial blood droplet at the ryan's house and that wasn't planted that was photographed. They found it initially, who didn't show up later and it came back as kevin's. So the shirt, I think the shirt looks a little funky and I kind of throw the shirt thing out because of the e d t a and whatnot, but that initial blood droplet not so much.
Yeah. I think, if we're just going to ask who do we think, did this it's easier to come up with Kevin cooper, because there is zero evidence? Okay, you can talk about s money. All day. Long to me, you can say all this person said that this person claim this just look at the forensics. What did they have if you just take this one blood, droplet it is a million times more important than the missing forensics for any three guys. You're. Trying to tell me about that. Miss. I can't deny that they didn't plants evidence. I cannot deny that there wasn't missteps here, but all the in its is coming back and then to further debunk. The Lee furrow thing is: ok, you have coon saying oh well, we went up therewith weapons, but we know that the weapons were used from the least house, because the owners of the least, how said not a hatchet, was ours that that buck knife was ours, so that deep
the whole coon testimony of we went there. We had hatchets on us. No, no, you didn't yummy All this stuff can be argued, and I understand when people say well, they could have collected things and dropped them off there to make it look. like it, came from there and they could have asked these people lie because we need to get the right guy behind bars, but really between the car and the blood droplet. By have to pick, I would have to say cooper, but on the flip side, this whole thing. If you are bothered by any kind possible wrongdoing on the part of the sheriff's department. Here, ah by the investigators, then means complain because our system needs some criticism, doorway, we're going to improve. Our justice system is to constantly keep it in czech. Just don't try to tell us that this guy's innocent because he's a rapist, ok, he's rape.
He's a violent criminal and he had all the motive in the world to at least want to take this car. If not, kill these people but yeah keep which keep the system in czech well I'll means we don't live in a black, I world, you don't have to be on one side or another. You know I, I think of you know people root for their local sports team, even if they suck if they don't have to be winners. I think you can think this guy is totally guilty, while simultaneously thinking the investigation was horrid evidence could have been planted. Prosecution's theories are all wrong. We can have it both ways you can think someone's guilty, but also think the system and prosecution of the person was so botched that they deserve an appeal, a retrial or even to walk free, which yeah you can think someone's guilty and think they can walk free.
Has the investigation was so bad? You can do that. You don't have to be on one side or another. The state has the burden of proof beyond reason, No doubt the onus is on them to get their theory right, get the evidence tested and give the public faith in the system that our tax dollars are paying. For you know, that's it: it's not thou heart of a kind it's up to grasp. I don't understand how lee furrow and his gang would go and murder this group and then go next door to a a neighboring house and then wash up or whatever, but then show up at a local bar covered in blood like this lee furrow We just does not add up to me at all now we're all these footprints, even if you say just two of them winning How come we don't have multiple shoe prints that they're looking at here, they're not and they stole the car like yeah. What are they doing with the car and why didn't they take the truck to have theirs?
we'll make it have taken both the cars marine. It's a station wagon, though it's not really like we're gonna, go, sell it and they dumped it. So if it was the whole day, otis money well take the car to chop shop or somethin me no monetary value of the from the car. If that's the case, but again, you, like you, said Kevin coopers, the one that had motive to take the car and get him the girl. He, especially as motive to get to mexico cause he just slaughtered entire family out fully to mexico too. The room he was in, he had in view of the ryan's home here, there's a point where Now we're talking about this case he said to me: what are the odds that you have this violent criminal next door that he had nothing to do with this. It's. I wonder this case thinking this guy looks guilty all day long, but then, as I looked at the mill
steps of the investigation and the narrative of the innocents advocates. They really maybe question like wow. This is really screwed up and Maybe it is this her, oh guy, but when you try to put Lee furrow theory when you really try to test it out. It doesn't add up as much as a lot of this evidence being planted. Kind of does add up so does escaped convict committing this crime in such close proximity. and fleeing the desperate man when you have an escaped convict who places himself near the crime scene, has evidence strewn about between the crime scene and where he was staying at all really. Think that their focus on him was racially motivated anymore. I think it was evidence based. So, as far as all these other people that have witnessed testimonies weather,
joshua or people in cars or people at a bar. I kind of disregard them. Because we know witness testimony is canada least reliable, source of evidence we have, and when you talk about wrongful convictions, especially when it comes to black men, african americans. A lot of is due to misidentification because of eyewitness testimony we talk about. You know what kind of evidence we're dealing with, and people missing, saying, oh circumstantial. Well, guess what it turns out that circumstantial, worse, a lot better I witnessed testimony. Why because lie. As we well know there looking at or with their recalling, especially in a case like this Joshua was brutalized and work. expecting him to remember exactly what he saw. I'm surprised he lived yeah, I'm happy, he lived and I'm happy he's grown up and
he's a healthy man now and he's a surfer and rides motorcycles, mortar cross dirt bikes. What is Joshua's opinion on cabin cooper and all these appeals and whatnot. It seems to me at least that he blames Kevin cooper for what happened dead. He believes cooper as who attacked him his family and his friend. He blames himself for invite his friend over. He feels guilt, his grandmother had to raise him and for the longest time. He thought one person couldn't do this
The absolutely felt that Kevin cooper was involved, but maybe Kevin had escaped with somebody else, but after they did the testing the blood testing and then the testing on the hare he's pretty much like. Oh ok that answered my question for me. Yet if you just look at all the forensics in and the defence had chances to test some of this stuff too. I know you can go through and fine certain things I wish we could have tested this and they, claim we ran out of this, and but really when you look at it they'd. Never,
found any forensic evidence of these supposed white men. They only found forensic evidence from calving cooper. My thoughts on cabin cooper is how unlucky could you be that I mean this is way too many coincidence is here for me to buy into the innocents narrative, especially when, if it wasn't kevin than you have to accept, that was Lee furrow, which that theory just does not panel, it's really hard to prove that law enforcement. planted. Evidence is not something that's just oh, you know you can throw it out there, they just planted it, but one can only insinuate due to the somewhat questionable nature of the evidence discovery evidence, destruction and testing. Happened today. I don't think we would have a lot of these questions that we do because it was from the past
I don't think we would have the same level of corruption or issues with the testing, because it's done and a more independent manner. At one point, the defence made a big deal out of how this deputy said that tossed away these overalls. He decided to get rid of them. Their defence found out that This was actually signed off on by superior officer, a man with the initial chaos and this guy didn't admit to it for a long time until the defence actually sent a former law enforcement guy did go talk with them he found out from K S which was yeah. Those were my initials. I sign off on that because remember. If you're going to away evidence, that's pretty serious right, but if you have a superior off, signing off on it. Well, you went and got permission to do it. So it's a whole different thing. You could say
the guy shouldn't have done that, but he got permission to do it. So you could say the blames on chaos, but you know a K. S also told this person that was looking into it. He said if you're looking to help out Kevin cooper, you're barking up the wrong tree ma, and this is the problem with the questionable evidence and destruction of evidence is when you go back and you question them what's going on with this, they get really hostile and they shut down the interviews and what not in its socks, because I want everything to be tested if Kevin cooper is raising his own money. To have dna testing done, then, is not really a waste of time for the state to test thing. Because it's not on their dime, it's not on the taxpayers time and because there is so much questionable stuff here between evidence being found later exculpate.
we evidence not being handed over to the defence and destruction of evidence that was never tested, yeah we can take the time, especially when a man's life is on the line on a capital murder charge
The. Bonnie Lee basically came to hollywood with a dream. She wanted to be someone famous
He married actor robert blake. She thought her dream come true until it all went wrong on may fourth, two thousand and one at nine thirty pm Bonnie was found in a car bleeding severely. She had been shot in the head. Oh my god, I don't know within the hour she was gone Night Bonnie went from victim to villain, the press caldeira, her a liar, a scam. As he was in the pornography business. She was in the prostitution business. She had criminal convictions all around the country in various states by who was bonnie mailing and who wanted her dead, listened to the execution of Bonnie lee bailey on amazon, music, apple, podcasts, spotify or you can listen early and ad free by joining wonder, replaced in the wondering app.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.