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we'll see it, and I love all the suggestions. In fact, there have been about two suggestions now that have been sent in just the past week that were going to fit into our schedule because there that interesting, nice now the other and ass we have to make, is thank you for everyone. Who's been visiting or purchasing from our jan. Why shop, The exciting announcement on this, though, is that we ve had a lot of requests for hoodies. We worked with one of our listeners, whose very talented and we ve come up with a really cool design for a hoodie. So it's not just a very with the general Why podcast on it? So it's a whole new. They yeah should be quite different by. We think well, you'll love it and will be getting those in a week or two from now, so keep checking we'll post updates emerald about it when they come in for sure, and

just remind everybody again about our meet up on november, seventh at thea lot. Winery close to liberty, Missouri sit cunning between can't sitting liberty. I don't really know if it it's in liberating liberty and kansas city, but right up against a jar of character. If you wanna meet us in person, there is there. Is that just a reminder? It's getting to be fall and the leaves are falling from the trees. What are we gonna talk about tonight? Her tonight is a case It was first suggested to us, and maybe only suggested to us by Kristen one of our listeners. I pulled up email again today and re read it. This is the case that sticks with you. All you have to do is read a summary of it. It's he had. The summary is twenty nine year old, extreme surgeon, I say acts because he was not employed at

I'm entered a home which they had left their garage door up slightly on november tenth, twenty ten and howard ohio right any state in there and he was just handling stuff in the house. The mother who lived at the house with her kids. She had. Kids and eleven year old boy and a thirteen year old daughter, she was divorced. She came home. And found a man with a knife and he also black jack and she gets struck pushed on her bed and her friend and neighbour comes in and she's attacked as well then later

the kids, come home and he attacks the boy, but he saves the girl and he takes every one with him in a vehicle and he drives them over to his place. To finish that up, it would be some time about four days before he was discovered. As the person response well for these people going missing and it would be even shorter time after that, when he would make a full confession and Let them know where these people, as well as their dog, had gone too. No one would have ever found them if he had made a confession. It's the case of Matthew hoffman. So what what we know about Matthew? We know that he was considered weird for as far back Has anyone could remember the story, kind of picks up his his parents divorce? It's about ninety seven, he moves with his mother and then, after a while,

joint school high school. He moves to colorado in this entire time he's known as someone who's sort of short common sense and he is very risky, he loves to take risks. He'll jump off a house onto a trampoline without a thought: hills string, something between two trees and tight rope, walk it he'll, climb, trees or climb up buildings, he'll take all kinds of risks that just most people wouldn't take. Yeah. I remember when I was a kid I liked to climb trees, build tree houses jump into piles of leaves, but that's what kids do, but it seems he took it and stayed with it. His a I guess obsession with trees, a kept going on to later ages right. He was a six foot one and about one hundred and eighty five pounds so and he's actually not a bad looking guy. If you, if you

If you just look at him and you don't know anything about him, you your first thought probably isn't he's a killer, know he's season average looking or he is. I might even my wife said, he's actually pretty good. Looking, I mean he's, not your stereotypic oh you know lumberjack guy up in a tree that looks creepy he's a normal looking person and that kind of makes it even worse. But he had a little bit of a criminal past correct he. He broke into a house and stole a bunch of stuff and assaulted. Somebody took the car and burned the house down. And that was in two thousand was a condominium complex. There were other people living there. In fact, there were sixteen people there when he sets it on fire. Luckily they get out, but it just goes to show

He has no problem risking other people's lives and if you're wondering why he said in a blaze. He said he was worried, as fingerprints, so you kind of trying to cover up his crime. His break in and he's got right he. He used to ten gallons of gasoline to set the place on fire, so overkill, maybe yeah I guess you could say they- the police were onto him pretty quickly. In that case, he didn't seem to give them any trouble, so he goes back with the police. They charge him with arson and bargain Hee Hee hee serves time in colorado, prison and then he saw he gets eight years, but only serve six which

this kind of life for a guy who set a building on fire with people in it, yeah that that critique on the bridge in systems, probably another episode, yeah and- and I can bring up another case where a guy goes to jail for arson and his whole family gets killed in that. But we'll leave that one for another episode, but he's he's paroled and he goes to ohio where he is a. I use a tree tree surgeon. I say true, tremor, but you know it's semantics there. The neighborhood he lives in people say that he strings up hammocks and trees and hangs out now at first glance. I think well, that's kind of cool I would like to, lay in a hammock and a tree, but the neighbours and people in the neighborhood say that he actually hangs out in the tree and watches you just that's his way of keeping an eye on everybody.

And he won't just stay in trees around his house. He will go to trees all around the neighbourhood and climb up in them, and you won't see him and tell you know you're right on it, with him. He I even had tree climbing gear and would go out into the woods and climb trees out there by people reported that he would watch people he would watch and stare at them from the trees, so that you can see why people thought he was a weirdo. You know that the whole aftermath interviews of oh, you is a quiet guy bubble. I know his neighbors all were like now the sky was creeper creepy in and he hung out and trees while two years after he goes back, knox county in ohio. He by that time, he'd say, dump enough money to get a. He got

loan any purchase to at that time. It was one hundred and nine year old house and it doesn't sound like it was in great shape, but it was his place at some point. He had a girlfriend and her kid move in with him, but in the end this takes us up near the time of our conversation tonight, which is on october, twenty fourth of two thousand and ten. He chokes her and that, of course, freaks her out and she moves out so from october twenty four, two november tenth, that's where things are escalating. It seems and he's actually seen across the street from the victims home right, we talk about this family in let's go through them. It's tina, herman, she's, early thirties she has the daughter, Sarah, whose thirteen and she has a sun aim cody whose about eleven

then they have a friend a neighbor friend right. In her name is Stephanie sprang she kind of factors in because as Sarah says it, her mom worked. A lot of ours she didn't get to see her very often so because she call a time supporting the family stephanie with someone she trusted. Implicitly, and she would watch the kids. So she, around a lot more than tina was oh yeah. There were reports that there was someone across the street watching the house late even Sarah would say that she felt she was being watched and they d actually think that he spent the night in a sleeping bag the night before the court of the actual it back right and dumb. Others, however, We are seeing a man across the street watching from the trees I even up to a month,

you're right. I will time of the break up as we go through what occurred its layer explained by Matthew that this was a burglary gone wrong. So you could say that fits because he's casing the place, but you would think if he's watching people he's not really casing the places casing. The people you know, watch a house for a month before you break into, I just seems overkill, but it's the houses. They say within walking distance of his house of his mother's house yeah his mothers. Right, so he would have he would ever and to be over and that over in that direction, so he breaks in what way and they have a garage door and they d close it all away a lot of times toward the door. Gout or something and he's able to get in there. He probably gets

On the ground is roles inner sunday air squeezes in and get in there once he's in there from what they can talent passed in from what he says. He walked around just handled everything in the house. You is started looking through everything and he was there almost an hour. He was there about yeah for quite a quite some time before tina shows up. She surprises and he is armed with a knife, its known as like a jungle knife the nasty looking knife and he order, he had ordered that online. He also had a and I can't if it was an improvised I might have been improvised, but a black jack which is sort I have an club, sir, like a sack with something heavy in it. He can. Swing around and hit somebody with it and. boarding to him. He hits tina twice in the head and it's not knocking around its just hurting her really

bad and so she's making lots annoys. There's a dog there, that's making lots noise and, of course, then Stephanie shows up the neighbour front because they were too. They were hanging out together as far as I know, so comes over or she may have just heard, I'm sure she heard a noise, so she comes in and he The way he says it is, he sort of makes a quick decision that he has to silence them or whatever, so he attacked them. Many attacks teen on the bed first with a couple of stabs, and then he chases Stephanie Stephanie gets sooner the room but she's not able to get away and he killed her. And then he doesn't leave again if this is a burglary gone wrong at that point, He already knows: what's in the house, he knows what's valuable he's had an hour to scour the house, or so, he chooses to remain in the house after he's been in their and our the hall.

on or shows up he kill. The homeowner and the neighbour, and he still remains in the house, and he tells the dog, because the dog won't quit barking he's brought with them tools he's brought with Some purchases he's made Walmart some tarps and other items and therein walmart bag that he's brought to the house. now he's murdered these two people used to women son and the daughter come home again Currently the attacks, the sun as well. How does the son he's eleven? We can tell, just by the way things go down dead. There's thing else at work here, because he killed everybody this point, except for Sarah, now his according to his confession, because later he does make a full confession He says that Sarah runs to. I think her bedroom and his first worry.

Is that she's going to be on the phone so that a nine eleven calls placed that's not good for him that ruins it for him, because he needs time. And when he gets to the room she doing anything geese, hysterical but she's, not on she's all freaked out. I think, and she just given what she says later. I would imagine that its survival thing that maybe she thinks, if she's complying and not freaking out that everything The ok somehow now she knows at this point is that there is a strange man in the house that, as attacked her brother, she doesn't Anything about her mother or the neighbour I don't even that she knows he attacked her brother yeah. She does knows something's. How would it, let's put it this way when they both come in and he's there? She takes off, she doesn't know what's going on after he comes in. She asks him if he had killed

her mother and brother, because the guy's armed with a knife joe. What is he doing there so He says, don't worry about it. Now later, she's, to say that she knew right then, and there that he had killed them, but this something that's come up because a lot of people were like. Oh, she didn't witten it's a she didn't know. This is instincts you're like a got thing. like she knew just pry by looking at this guy he's armed you darling, opening out in his probably a blot on, and at this point, because he stabbed multiple people in the dark. He hasta known as the have to give this girl credit. We have to believe her story. He occurs with these other people weren't there She was and what she says makes sense. So he ends

at binding her and taking her and putting her in the vehicle, as well as the other people and the dog, but she's not she's, not near them in the vehicle. So she doesn't know he. You know she doesn't know anything and he takes him back to his place and unfortunately, this is where he most likely has dismembered and placed into bags the other people and the dog yeah, and he has a plan, this a hollowed out tree That was about sixty feet tall and he had used a police system to lower them in through the top of this hollow tree into the tree. Take a moment to get a word from our sponsor racket, racquet tennis. smartest and most rewarding way to shop and save earn cash back at over thirty five hundred,

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age, S and Y, see premiers october nineteenth on ethics stream on hulu. What are we say about this? Guy people have said that as sort of a strategic mind, so, even though he's kind of reckless in some ways he he is capable of planning things out at which we can tell- because this tree, like I said, is that he ends up placing these bags in his over sixty feet tall and it might be sixty five feet tall, it's a big tree, and so he just to recap real quick, as he leaves the house with the bodies and the girl. He takes the vehicles and the girl back to the house that he dismember is the family and the dog bags them up and then lowers them into our hollowed out a huge hollowed out tree right. I think the thinking what

is he didn't want vehicles? President? The house? That's my my thinking, because he you know if anybody came by, they be suspicious that people are there, but not their, I'm, not sure, but he moved the vehicles and then the other thing that came up was I red one. Article were summer was they were thinking Maybe he had hollow that tree out now. Let me tell you something: if you're going to hollow a tree out, I dont think you pick a sixty five foot tree now right. So I had a look this up. As I am no tree expert but apparently trees However, while on their own naturally no yeah, they then absolutely do they can out from the inside now it is possible for people to hallow a tree, but it can take a lot of work. So this. Would have been a naturally hollow tree and because he spent so much time out there. He probably knew of its location, because it where he found it interesting and so we made use of It-

the girl that he has captive. He had her down in his basement, which has an unfinished concrete basement, and it appears that there is about two feet of leaves all over the basement. So when you're walking down there there's to feed a leaves all over the house really in the living room. There's leaves deep deep leaves and then in the basement, there's leaves, but he puts down a blanket or something or some sleeping bags. On top of the leaves to give her a bed delay on. He also, I think he made her where, like him, diaper and like a bag over that yeah, he kind of improvise a headline diaper on her of the sort, and then he cut holes and a plastic bag and employ

Up over that, because he wouldn't let her go to the bathroom, he would not let her leave and do anything till she could have escaped what are ya any bound, duct tape around her hand, she had literally flippers four hands. There is no way for it, a claw to do anything with their hands. I'm sure this isn't the reason he allowed or go to the bathroom, but in the bathroom there were bags of leaves neatly stacked from floor to ceiling on all four walls, meticulously yet even covered the mirror and death. They're all they're all over the place. So not only does he, just leaves in the house. Just laying around, but he has bagged the leaves lined the walls with these bags of weeds My line of thinking is affirmed This many leaves, and

be wrong, but I almost think that he used almost those two half to three years. That he was back in ohio disturbing leaves. This is a lot of leaves we're talking about brazil, but his girlfriend I dont know if she ever mentioned that when she was there that these laser in the house, I doubt she would have lived there and those conditions while, but he may not have had them all over the place, then in the universe word them somewhere in the basement. It's a it's an old home yeah! Well, you know that or you hear some crazy stuff. Okay, so when they go into the house- and they start- you could say- processing the scene yeah. This is after he's been caught. They find they look in the freezer. you think this guy would have food right. He has squirrels yeah, he has squirrels and red popsicles, so he's- and this

something that people that knew him said that he would capture squirrels and skin him and eat em yeah. Here he like going to the grocery store, but apparently the mongolia walmart, so the trees provide, I would say right. He he lived in the many lived off of them. right. So it's hard to say we just don't have a com story here on everything and that's. Why they're Some debate on. Was he obsessed with trees or were these trees in these leave serving another purpose?. Because, as as a younger man, you know with his family troubles, he would spend a lot of time and tree. So some would say that may be a comfort to him what he felt a bond with them and, let's just for a moment say he did plan this abduction. In the family got in the way, well he's already broken into a earlier in his life and then burned the house down so

Not a leap to think that he had planned this abduction and if and when he got caught, he would just like the leaves on fire in this house as an accelerant and burn any evidence. But when I just look at this and look at the way he's behaved. This is the way he lived and I don't if he was if accelerant were burning, the house down was on his mind. Yet we can talk about some more because when he gets caught and how he gets caught may affect people's perception on this whole scenario, so he's kept her bound and gagged down. The basement he's assaulted her many times over these through days three four. It is. Meanwhile, the investigators are going over there, house. Now they come across matthew because he's hanging around like he had showed up at the house.

According to him. He had gone back to burn it down because again he's worried about his fingerprints, but the police. Are there already not what he was expecting. You know the day. The next day think this november eleventh, he was expecting police there already. Interesting. So, while the police are investigating at the house, the murder scene they come cross the walmart bag and the tarps whatever other items he left behind in with the walmart, they go to the nearby walmart and they check the very surveillance cameras and they see a man purchasing, tarps and other items. They have him on camera. They go to the

parking lot, security cams and they see that he drives like toyota yours. So they have a pretty good description of him and his vehicle And they see this, guy has come back to the house during the investigation and loitered around and they found the families truck and he's by it. Loitering, as they say, based on the video they notices, matthew, half men, they send a swat team four days later from the time the people go missing. They send a swat team to his house, they bust in the door, one of those

The team guys enter the guy that falls directly behind him throws in a flash grenade, oh gee. Now these things are meant to stun. So like he goes off and if you've ever had a bright light, suddenly hit you you're disoriented, and it has a little bit of fire. Thank god. I didn't like the leaves so they're hoping to take him by surprise. Now they sort of do because he's asleep on the couch So I don't think the flash bang worked. I mean they don't go into this detail, but I don't think it worked because he had his eyes shut. And they rouse him and he's why, you know what's going on and they say you tell us They saved from that moment on for, like a full day, despite even hours of interrogation. He won't say anything. He lets tape, run out and says nothing. They asked ass

can play of questions they let him know. We know we know you're involved, it doesn't matter what they tell him and they and they find the girl in the basement right. They do find her. They free her and she is able to give information. but they still don't know where her fair. His mother. Is they don't know where the family friend isn't it? They don't know where cody is and they all nor the dog s. We have four beings missing out of this, this house and they're. Nowhere to be found and, as we said, he had placed them in sixty to sixty five foot tall hollowed out tree in the middle of the forest. Yet there they're not going to ever find that he's not talking. But there is one thing, and I know that investors is often in serious cases like this. If they want the answers, they have to give up something we gotta

organ so labour, they bargain with them and they say, make a confession- tells everything they went down. Tell us where are these people are and will take the death penalty off the table, because ohio is a death penalty, state yeah and they They do not have any problems putting this guy down if they, if they must when he had been apprehended, he acted very. at work. He didn't want to say anything but from what I understand that night he cried quite a bit and they had to put him on suicide watch because he was making the guitar. He was sort of making threats. The creepy thing is when he was being interrogated. There was a time where he did something. Now he wasn't talking. But his hands are class together any party like pounces chest once and makes he gestures or something and theirs they

say broken heart and he doesn't saving and they say because of what you did any shape now, it's not that and they say I am I'm trying to remember, but I think, they ask him if it's, because he got caught- and he didn't say anything You can imagine this is, your mind, go see the possibilities of what's going on with this guy per se. If you on the list of what happened you go through, he attacked everybody that air this home and kept the thirteen year old and took her back and kept her alive in the basement. I think he's just upset that he got caught yeah. He makes a four page confession, so they find out where the bodies or at but remember

how they were put in their that he had. He is a police system to drop 'em in from above yet here to get them out. They had caught a rectangle out of the front of the tree. That's just a chilling image of use. If you ve seen the tree and later, though caught the tree, they cut the tree down like they did wanna leave a landmark like that out. There can be no I'm sure people, visit it or who knows what would happen so they actually end up later. They just take the whole thing down, but he also tries to splain that when he went into the home he just wanted to go through the house. He wanted a take his time because it was thrilling being in someone else's home. It just rob the place where says that he was just there to rob the place, but he didn't seem to take anything you I mean like he wasn't going through, making a pile of things to leave with and

we tried to explain it was a robbery gone wrong, but why the violence? Because he tries to make it sound, like he, stabbed everyone twice in the chest pretty much and that he hit tina twice in the head at first with the with the blackjack yeah. And if that's the case, then, while the coroner's report is a little different because the corner for it said that they were stabbed multiple times front and back so now I dont have the report, so we can't go through in counter his story point by point, but it certainly sounds to me like that much more balanced under these people than he led on

you know what I'm saying, oh absolutely, because he just the fact that he kidnapped the little girl. Why I mean? How do you go from entering and stealing to homicide and kidnapping? And it just doesn't add up and his confession is odd and sort of cells hundred any talks about how he was very nice to the little girl and he fed her and and did things for her and he he tried to make himself sound good, like he was a nice person yeah. He said that he fetter hamburgers and they watched the iron man movies together, one and two and that they play video games and better use in the way our hands are bound she's, not playing video games and her version of the story is no, I was trap down in a basement were

he was extremely abusive. He did not feed me and he made me where a diaper and a bag, so he pleads guilty too. aggravated rape, kidnapping, tampering with evidence and three counts of abuse of a corpse which again, I always wonder how Robert durst didn't get charged with that. But it's spray much sense to life. The survivor, as of this horrible crime. They they tell him what a horrible person he is in and they get to face him in court in its pretty emotional. The watch those well in court

neither Sarah nor matthews speak, but their lawyers do now from statements that they have given to that of the lawyers and matthews lawyer. Try to make it clear that it was a burglar gone wrong that that's not what he intended you actually find this online and listen to it on you too, but when the law your says, and he apologizes that part is lower and its short, it's almost like I'm not sure the lawyer believes it he tries to they had very well, but when he gets that parts almost like, he can't quite pull it off and there's laughter in the courtroom now, Sarah her lawyer gets up and he species from her written statement and it's very much ay, I'm not afraid have you any more and its

also a. How could you do this? How could you do this to a family that she believes hill suffer the rest of his life? For what he's dying I don't know about you, but it never really seem like he was remorseful, except for the getting caught part so I am I really like sarah, she has gone on to speak to media and news reporters where she has started a an organization for victims of violent crimes is going on the circuit, let's say with her father, who appeared to be supportive of her and and taking care of her, and he would talk about his daughter by apparently all was not quite so well home. Well, it's difficult to know, exactly what's going on, but I won and you have this thirteen year old,

all that suddenly thrust into this. It's a nightmare. She's living in a nightmare she's in a situation where hands are completely duct tape, she's bound she's gagged, he's wearing diaper on a better leaves a house full of leaves with the psycho and as she says she just come, she's very complicit. She just wants to survive now. She's moved home with her dad who she hadn't lived with. She's lived with her mom, just not live with her dad and while there may have been a reason for that, because she's with her dad and his wife and at some point her dad punches or in the back And so we don't know if she's having trouble trying to adjust to life after this incident or if he's got kind of a temper- and he's having trouble adjusting to this new situation also write it panes in his life and then his his wife, which is her stepmother

kicks her down the stairs within. I think six days of the punching incident, oh wow, so She end up having to talk to the law and get a emancipation sums and no, she it's a restraining order against the mother does that mother. and then she is going to take both of them to court. So she's gone through this nightmare and she's thrust into another abusive situation. That way it sounds Oh now, her dad and the stepmother agreed to go through a domestic violence programme, and then the charges are dropped. She's with her dad at that point, and she moves in with her grandmother. Is her mothers mother. I think her name's barbara herman wins he's going in doing these interviews. Its sort of ironic that her father is sitting there.

right next to her appearing to be supportive. Yeah. He even says, as the father I'm supposed to be teaching her about life, but I feel she's. Teaching me much more about life than I ever could have taught her near dismayed, and this might be stupid. And bring up at every single reporter that she spoke to said that she was the bravest little girl they ever met, and I kind of us like she's the strongest girl, like somebody, that's brave, has a choice in their life and they they choose the harder path they choose, the the greater the good.

Thing to do or the harder thing to do she didn't get a choice here. She was totally and completely victimized by Matthew. She made it through and she's brave to go on from that and she's brave to do these things, but for people to say she was brave to endure this. I just think man she's wrong person- and I I don t, bravery is a choice and to make a choice. She didn't get a choice in this her I don't know. I don't know why that bothered me so much when I heard all his news. Reporters saying this to her, but maybe it's a non issue and it's just a word and I should get over while she may. I just been braved it about it? On the other hand, it may have just been people, don't know what to say to a girl like that. That's been through something they came and imagine near. So it's it's difficult to say, but there

One interesting thing that really stuck with me throughout this whole case. In it's not just the fact that Matthew hoffman was into trees and into leaves there is something else that sort of stuck with me in that Sarah claims, this was said and court as well, that she doesn't believe that Matthew acted alone yeah? I guess he said if you try escape. I my accomplices war will stop. You did I get people working with me will will go You I'm not even sure, that's totally it because she said she heard him talking to someone else. Outside the house. There weren't any other vehicles. She doesn't. I got there again. He could have parked somewhere else this is to happen for words, someone apprehends state. They licence happen where someone kidnapped somebody and claims help lay

or even if you get pass me, you ve got to do with the other people for what we can see. He didn't have any accomplice Now he d definitely did not having accomplices. This is all him this I'm sure, most of you would agree with this. He staked out that house. He stalked that girl and then he probably is telling the truth when he says he didn't expect to see tina or especially stephanie. I think he thought he was just going to have to maybe knock out the kid and take the girl there, and they actually also part of that plea deal taking the death penalty after they said tell us where the bodies are an tell us who you were working with and at that point is when he says it was all him was talking to the way but that's what I was thinking is. He has to be somewhat crazy. Yeah there's no way around it. So if he was talking to some

yeah. Maybe he was talking to the leaves maybe was talking to the trees. It totally makes sense to me to me he lied to her about. having accomplices issues awaited, make her complied and more. He tries to come off as a guy who just made some bad choices at the wrong time: He then goes on to say in his confession that he was going to give her a little bit more freedom every day until about around christmas, to where he was hoping, she would just run away this I mean. Does anyone else? Have a bs meter going off right now, the the guy? had never intended. In fact he says he never could have harmed her I'll say right now like I said he had found her hands bound her feet, put a diaper on her. She got a very good look at him. I don't think she makes it if those

Did that swat team doesn't show up for days later. She can't stay in that diaper like that indefinitely he's not going to care for her indefinitely. I think at some point he would have killed her too. He would have you would have had to otherwise he gets caught and he's done our plans to get caught. Well, it's just the maintenance, I just don't see him sticking out this disguised crazy. I don't think he can contain a captive that long, because it's just this, the situation will deteriorate more more. He came and take her himself monotony, really Aunt- and this has been pointed out, is not just me and is not just you. That's come up with this, but other people pointed out the astrogation case was done very, very well. The fact that they were able to go and get put it so often we hear why didn't they pull this footage or why didn't they checked this phone log? They did everything they respect.

To do and they were able to get this guy within four days, which I think is perfectly reasonable outstanding. So for anyone? This is all they keep bashing on the police, insane investigators, don't what they're doing now they really a good job on this case because they got the guy, I know they were too late- fur somebody's victims but, were killed fairly early on, and there was nothing they could have done. this guy he can rotten prison because like that tree that he put the bodies in the meantime, I get the feeling here hollowed out, he is he's a hollow person now how a person with a hollow tree, niches, site a match: maidenhair gas, but in my mind they saved sarah, and you can say she helped herself too, and I think she did, but

The investigation was done very well. They are able to save her and now she's able to go out and spread. That message of I survived, be strong and you have help within me and my organization right and she's trying to make it happen, so yeah. That's amazing. the new excuse,

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