On this episode of the generation, why I interview rebecca, who has been the powerful voice, for nonsense his incarceration? She recently put out a book called the search for truth and justice after cereal adnan story, and if you are not

the speed on the case or, if you didn't listen to cereal or undisclosed or truth and justice maybe a little lost and you might not be up on current events, but we delve into a lotta details about the case and issues with add ons defence. So if you don't know anything about his story and you been living under a rocky My pillow lost during this episode, but Otherwise any one else should be able to go right for the ride robbie, as click on her feet and a very fast talker, so try to keep up hello. hey Robbie high doing I just how are pretty good, not that you need any introduction but say who you are what your background is so high name? Is Robert audrey, I'm I'm an attorney, I'm a fellow at the us to appease anonymous public advocate for Anon said,

damn who was the subject of cereal and I co host and co produce a podcast called undisclosed. I recently read a book about the case called a nonsense, and dumb. I wrote it and I am deeply involved in all of this. Because I've known him, since he was thirteen years old and anon, is my my younger brothers best friend, it's I've always been theirs. personal family friend, like a big sister figure to him. I was gonna just start out really asking you about how you got into the case and how you got into becoming an attorney and sort of your background and in how that ernie went. I would like to ask you a few questions about your child hurting. going to college because a few things in your book kind of stuck out to me as a little, comical and a little. I can relate to sir, and I personally liked a lot of things in the book that were more about you and I like to learning about you and so

well yeah. You know. I realize that I've talked about this because the title of the book is not my title: the publisher picked it and I'm like this is not really completely, but you know only a non can write a non story and one day he'll do that hopefully, well you did a wonderful job, putting the reader and to add ons had one You start writing this book wet. What prompted the inspiration for this you know a serial was going. I was blogging very ferociously about the podcast enzymes blogging. lord riding a lot about those tweeting about it and- There was a literary agent. I guess he was kind of following me and she reached out and said: listen have you thought about, a book about the case and I really hardened and I also it was amazon resistant to the idea. I'll already felt very overwhelmed. You know to me: it was the kind of thing a obama will will offer his story when it gets out, but you can't

it's to me that she said. Listen. You know. If you don't write the book and somebody's gonna write the book. There's a lot of crime writers out there. Somebody will write the book about the case, given the popularity of I passed and then the case, so you should think about it, because you. You know the lawyer, as you know, dining other community. You but you know how the whole cereal thing and folded and and also you know, do you want a complete stranger. come in and try to get it right. So I that was gonna convincing and I always locale talked a lot about it and I did- and he said Listen if europe were, then you totally have my permission to do it, which was important to me. That's why I also wanted his contribution to the book at that happened. I think I'll be and I wrote a proposal for them. was around the time cereal ended, which was like end of December tongue for twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen I'm confused now, but around the time serial ended. I wrote a proposal for the both within about a month ago. try to dumb and then I started action

writing it in earnest last june. But here, though, something else Look out to me in the book is: when you talk about your your childhood and growing up and in your family, you do refer to growing up in a muslim family and the differences how about that. But when I was reading it, I literally does heard the same stuff. He's from all my friends that have very strict parents who don't allow do any thing they had now thing to do with culture or religion, it was just parenting and not allowing them to do any thing, not allowing them to day not allowing them to go to parties stuff. Like that, that's what things about his life. How many ways can we restrict targets and that that was the though the crane the thing about the argument that the statement is that because of on line to his parents- and I my every Your lies, the parents and, if they're not lines, the parent something's, probably wrong, they just lie about different things. You know so

we have different standards in our homes, but all kids, like you, know, test boundaries and hide stuff from parents and do things we're not supposed to be their parents, don't want them to do, and that's just parenting like your son, when you were going to college your your mother said you can talk to me. You know you can tell me if you meet a boy, it was a trap was a trap. You know it's like it. When you tell em and then it's not ok, I mean how old were you at that point when she got mad at you about actually talking to a boy, your problem? Yet it is more than talking to avoid willing. I had, and that's the thing because we go into these situations with very little experience and all these bollywood movies are ahead. You feel like you, somebody later. Your love and you really get married in that's really would happen. I met this guy like two times he proposed. He was, I want it. Wasn't you probably think I would like to marry you I'm major family. This is very much. The book is anyway, and I was nineteen. It was really went. First, europe it was half way my pursued college.

and I went running home. What are we gonna like this guy's gonna come talk to you he wants to marry me I really am I honestly in retrospect. Might my mom was absolutely right. My parents were absolutely right to say your prayers see this is not going to help them like this. They did make me wait a few years and we did eventually get married. Oh, I agree with that. I think everyone should wait before getting married. I think, saturation time where you get to know the person and my own daughter's nineteen and she's in college erin and I actually had like a good talk with her a couple of weeks ago cause I you know to me she's, like my little baby, but all my you know my family they're, like hey or if you started thinking about like you, know her like meeting somebody. Are you going to introduce like how are you going to handle this cause the muslim dating thing is very awkward and we are right now so finding at the top of thy son. I have a closer to say talk as my mother, but actually meant it as if you meet somebody nice, it's fine. You knows, if needed, sky? Let me now. Let us know

in the family. You need to hide it and I actually expect you to go out and meet people not, but my my actually talked to her was like nah It was like you know, meet multiple people like give yourself some time, and you know explore life and get to know people, and so hopefully she takes my advice. I've just recognized during the trial was that his his attorney add ons attorney Gutierrez. How do you say her name Fitzgerald said she kept emphasizing his religion, emphasising his culture and it home. It was totally working against him and I almost feel like she should a downplayed she. You know she made a big mistake of not cool. Ring with a community on how to handle this, but also she was really- losing it. I mean she really I dont think was completely like I don't. I don't think she had it together. At that point, the comment Lee she was on her way down. I think she was not thinking strategically. I can

Imagine unless I'm totally obvious that in her heyday when she was an excellent defended attorney that she I've done that, I think if she, if she was completely competent. The time she would say all of this is irrelevant we're talking about what happened on january thirteenth, ninety nine. This has nothing to do with his background at all, except that what an intense here it's pretty a pair and to me that she was losing it cause. When you hear her line of questioning when you hear her speaking to J or other people and she starts repeating herself and she should give locked into some kind of weird point she's trying to make- and she does I realize she's already made it or what she's saying isn't going to make that point ever hearing her be combative with the judge and stuff? It's like. No, no, no real lawyer will do this. I remember sitting there at one time. I'm just looking I end it was, I think, one of those moments where she kept repeating

things and it was like a release, and I just looked around at other people because I was like is anybody else? Seeing what I'm saying is anybody else's alarmed as me, because I couldn't believe what I was witnessing so was it a non and, in his whole situation that prompted jude get into law. No. I was already moscow when he was arrested. Ok, I got into law because I'm a failed medical students prevent and like a lot of asians kids, our parents want us to come doctors and I was prepared for three years. three years on like this is not happening. I don't get you know. Chemistry is not mine thing and I'm I'm gonna hate this arm, and I and then I ended up getting married. Actually, while I was in college and as the time to graduate was approaching, it was a friend of mine was like you know what I think, I'm gonna sit for the elsa and I had never even considered it, and I thought you know what I'll sit for it and see how how I do I did very very well- and I was recruited by a number of law. Schools basically

Frankly, there, like you, don't apply you just in if you want to be in brussels, I ended up in moscow. This so it is brought to you by peacock bridge Ending the original limited series, a friend of the family, on the story of the Jan roper, kidnappings from nick and oscar executive producer of the act and candy and direct. Producer, eliza hip and comes a dark compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produce which amber burke herself the series stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only on peacock, take a to get away from our sponsor racked racket. Ten is the smartest and most rewarding way to shop and save earned cash back over thirty five hundred stores and every single category like fashion beauty, electronics, homosexuals travelled, dining subscription services and much more membership is free. and it's really easy to sign up rocketing depend. It's your cash directly into your paypal account or they can send you a check

two, no brainer you can earn cash for what you already are shopping for racket tin has fifteen million members who are already saving store all your shopping, rackets and outcome or get the rackets an app to start saving. Today, that's racket in our aid hey. You t in dark, come after us I have a brother in law that is a doctor, and he lets say this. I am older than him, but he looks older than me because this what he had to go through to become a doktor, it wasn't right for me. Did you I think that this was your calling or was it just hey, I'm good at this and I'm gonna I'm in a role within or not because I had never ever in my life considerable. I really hadn't. I actually wanted if, if somebody had asked me when I began college, but you wanna, do I want to be a journalist. I was very like I have been a radar. My whole life I've written a lot even in school, and I was at the editor of a school paper that guy reading and writing.

thing, and but when I got to law school, I realise this is such a break. It fit as a lot of reading. It's a lot of writing. It's a lot of a kind of logic. Puzzles that a lot of really pushes you Intellectually, to you know, figure things out, and I I enjoyed it. You know, law school was not easy because I was married. I had a kid. I was living well, these laws and it was really survival to get through it all. I was working about yet loss, but to me it wasn't that I it was a calling, but once I was in it I was like this is it this makes sense for life? You know what, where I'm naturally strong. You mention it a lot in the book and I do follow you on twitter and other social media in you. Do a lotta reference to growing, up in america as a muslim, and what do you see as the differences were a you know, between the nineteen nineties to say now owing to use different than I do time too.

Which, as my family from pakistan in pakistan, the majority population is sunday muslim. So guess what people are christians, and in those and others discriminated against. This happens in every society too. There was always discrimination against minorities, including muslims in the nineties, bought the nine eleven and the you know our global war on terror, which will just like it seems like not end, This is getting worse and worse has really ass repeated that sentiment. It has almost force clashing of worlds and people. don't don't care about muslims in. I don't really want to deal with them in and to decide, but but feel forced to confront this rightly if you live in the heartland marathon are worrying about isis is kind of totally an existential threat ices overseas killing other muslims bud, because, like this, this entire framework of the global war on terror. The place you know has been politicized there. Isn't it

so much more fear of suspicion and dislike of muslims. Now marathon than it was when I was growing up, do you think that'll work against adnan if he'd give us a retrial? No, I don't think so at all, because The other side of the coin is that in the ninety nine is muslims, experience it's kind of everyday, a little bigger trees and scrub nations, but we weren't really. It wasn't like an issue that we took on. We also weren't organized like we didn't have any advocacy organizations. Now we do so. You know if this came up. a trial today, and you know the state knows it. That's when the last couple years a state of including europe has been like normally and about his religion. It was the run of the mill murder case, because they know they can't pull it now if they pull it. Today, We are very well organised. We have grown up as a community. We have lawyers with. You know a decade of experience under their belt. We're not going to stand for it, we have we all saw the world watching so there's no way they can get away with it today, but they did then, I mean he originally said. This was a honour killing and I would like you

define what a real honour killing is. If one were to do that cause, they totally get it wrong. Yeah I mean honour, killings do exist and they exist not just in muslim culture. They exist across a number of cultures and even in the book I pointed out even like the green culture. This has happened to end. It's a reprehensible practice that base we happens when a girl or a woman in the family has dishonored the families the family, feels that she's brought dishonor upon their own family. So a brother, a father occur In an uncle, some male member about family will kill a girl. in their own family. That is an honour killing when a man kills a partner. That's you know, that's domestic violence and that's like a different type of violence, then a family. Killing their own daughter, sister, mother, whatever exactly and- and I just I wanted- that- to be defined and clear to people that the whole premise and motive against him was based.

A misunderstanding or ignorance of what it even mean. So I was convenient diamond as other. I figure out. Honour killings mean you now is call experts work on it and look it up, but it works. When you are, working with a jury? Who has no idea that europe has no reason to be exports on his issues presenting the experts on these issues in the case, neither defence within the prosecution, so you might throw up the words around and scare people, something that always stuck out to me about this case is J wild winner I think of a crime, a murder or some sort of event and the law enforcement reaches out and says, hey here's, the tipps hotline, give us a call and tell us what you know they get alot of people that are crazy in calling just random things and they have to let them and they have to figure out who is telling the truth and whose non? Now at what point, in

is ever changing statement should they have abandoned his statement. I dont understand why some prosecutors would probably say this as unreliable while others will take it and just run with it. Yeah it's hard for me to figure out between the police. He's in a prosecution like how will first what we have to ensure that the in the context of this, It was. There was a very high profile case. There was a lot of pressure to not just making a respite to get conviction in the case green communities we organised, they have every reason and its legitimate them to say, listen. We need you to do right by us, so there is a lot of pressure on them up as far the police are concerned. I they knew that the entire narratives crafted they had to they're the ones who helped J come up with a story that fit the cell phone records symbol. Is that now I dont know if the prosecutor necessarily knew that it could be by the time the

Please convey these thing, the prosecutor. They had kneel down J to the point where there, like, ok, good enough for us all the honest. I think that I dont know if the prosecution actually knew that jail involvement was thanks to the coaching of the police. The police- definitely, I think, we're engaged. Some serious misconduct, they exactly what they were doing and I think they didn't care. I think they think they thought had not did it and that is needed find, a way to get him in jail. To be that way, I dont think for a second, the police, J was really involved because They never searches house. They never went looking for the dumpsters for a couple of months, and who does that rightly so, they they knew it was bullshit, they knew J was bullshit, ingenuous, bullshit, the prosecution might not have known, it would appear The region did, that was dirty. Wasn't they fought? The terrorists tire way in terms of like they wouldn't give her the statements she was flying blind date.

Well. The medical examiner don't give her the medical evidence, so they they play dirty in a different way. I'm pretty sure they. You know they withheld the the fax cover sheet from a cell phone expert. They gave it to here s what I gave it to her with a different set of record, so she might not have realised that all it also point to the exhibit that was a trial Well, here's here's a line that I highlighted in your book. It wasn't until the first day, a trial when evidence and poor maria motions place that the state finally turned over jays police statements from February twenty eight march fifteen. They didn't you no until the first day, a trial. I had no idea how you're asking attorney and a client create an alibi for what for like. They have I do not know what data that are of J has is making the allegation. Oh, that adnan non capture in in a basement further days and killed like they have no idea what the states theory of the gates is in its new.

Impossible to create a defence in that in that case, but I will say this arms or I do say that it's definitely group Gutierrez was a huge disadvantage, but she had The advantage going in the second trial, Did she still botched it? For who knows why? I guess health effects caused reasonable explanation The minute she realised that the you J testified and end every dollar. This was concentrated about after school. She shouldn't like we gotta figure out where he was after school and she should have reached out to asia Maclean just because the whole time line is based off of jays ever changing statements. Does a prosecutor need to get the timeline correct to prove guilt? and how much weight should hold? I mean unless you're gonna make the argument that the only thing the prosecutor has to say is that we think this guy and this is his motive and convince a jury of that that you know the actual crime, how it happened, how he got to the victim

we got rid of all friends together. Like none of that matters, then we are in big trouble as a society cause. That's a very low bar for prosecuting the meat you're going to charge. money with murder and take away their entire life. You should be able to say this is exactly how it done as the other You can't say? Well, maybe this time, maybe this time it was that time the judges opinion judge, watches opinion at the end of this appeal process says exactly that, When he keeps saying I was perplexed, I'm he sang this is bullshit. Is it your time? It's bullshit there's no way any of that come get me call happened nope hall that mean sends out. So that's what Judge said you know. In this appeal, asia is credible. Gutierrez should have older, but because that time, I was so like. The japanese The jury realise at that time line was crazy, anyways and it was irrelevant. So he thought that the jury convicted,

none because the lincoln park pings, because that was the real evidence that was like the scientific documentation, write the whole thing that gave Jay any sort of you know credibility Everyone points to. He knew where Hayes car was dumped, but at the same time I dunno. How do you respond to that? One sticking point that most people have about j statement. I respond at length in the book and I explain a sequence of events in late february of ninety nine that might explain well jay or you know, basically might the whole. I don't want to get into it now, because I do want people to read it, and it also is a little bit complicated, but I lay out step by step, happened those days in the investigation and why there is reason to believe that the police are. You knew where the car was perfect, with the investigation and all pretrial malay, witness testimony defence screw ups. What was something

at while you were sitting there or paying attention to most of this, that you found completely unfair. What was something that really stuck out to you that you wished you could have changed or if something you could change about history well, nothing was more deeply unfair. Then his for a seventeen year old boy his murder based on his religion, ethnicity. I mean, I think, idea that he's both this crate fundamentalist muslim but at the same time he smoking, pardon and sleeping and drinking nero? It's just so ridiculous, but I do think I should disappear with with judge well that asia Maclean, would have changed the outcome of the trial because here's a day at the end of the day, if I'm just imagine closing on them. The killer said, the closing our him by two thirty six p m human lives dad. if Gutierrez was able to get up and closing and say until two forty p, at nine was with this girl. Asia Mclean adds up. woodlawn library and her boyfriend saw him, and his friends saw him

Asia was potentially a gateway to two other witnesses who also had picked and maybe need. I would have remembered that if she can't the dominant timely way that one, The end you know, because the jury can't odyssey, they won't process. They will give the crop about the lincoln piping If you have three people saying we were in the library exactly what to say, it say it with him when the states and she was killed by you. that too thirty to call in the seven o six calls me nothing if you had to. I am, I think, the jury. Like ok, we don't know what dealers, but maybe he was involved, but this is bullshit because this guy this, it's saying that she's murder at this time and skies like the library we have witnessed an asia very credible, witness maybe bite at that point. They might have been able to find some video evidence. I don't know- probably maybe not, but anyhow. The point is, I think, asia made all the difference in the trial, something else he wrote. The book was that you were talking about how you saw west Memphis three documentary and

There was the whole satanic panic going on, and people that were afraid of the cold. I'm assuming your kind of connecting people's fears of the occult and people's fears of islam at the time. He I'm pretty sure like opinion polling, will show you that muslims rank below sadness. Oh yeah, we pretty much one that people, but I'm not I'm in. This is it just about the human condition right leg. We always and as society in every not does america everywhere. It likely always we kind of like to have these common enemies right with its communism, with a red square of the japanese, or that there is always some bogeyman. And the bogeyman will change sometimes and the bogeyman. right now as muslims and islam, and I I hope that eventually goes away, but the truth is when it. If and when it does, it'll probably be somebody or some other group and that's kind of the sad thing about it. So, but definitely you know, I think in the west Memphis three case:

is that absolutely it was all about that. It was like these guys are basically a bunch of emo kids who are like you know, into a cult, and that translates into x Y Z. So what? What? What is your reaction when, in an add on case they grew? it is retrial more or less based on the cellphone tower pings and the defence not cross examining properly. For that, as opposed to asia. Are you I? It was a surprise blood. But when I, when I so, I saw the order for us which was like, which is, as the deny granted an advantage, and I was surprised to read the order. and they all. Although early in the day we just weeded one went on one issue with, I didn't get a matter, one issue that was about when I read the opinion. I thought it was really I'm like this. the judge, because a judge's making factual findings We are very hard to challenge by the way on the appellate level. With the judges saying your entire thailand is bullshit, there was no come and go

call like none of that matter. So he's really he's as the door open for asia by saying she's credible, but his curse, with seal the casket on the timeline thing for this day, I think the ruling Absolutely right. I mean it was agreed just not to have. Evidently this this fax cover she, when its directly relevant to the states case to say that these incoming calls show where he was and eighteen to use nope they how much more direct and a visa. I was very happy with the ruling out I think it's a really strong ruling and I think there is nowhere. There's no way is taken. When this do you expect them to actually take it to retrial do you think they're going to offer him a plea or something you don't want if, if we work dealing with some really cocky people at the attorney general's office. I might think reasonable people would I said this is stupid, we're not going to spend taxpayer dollars on a case. That's so flimsy! I just give him a pleat, but

I mean I don't know this particular prosecutor, victor Raja, he I dunno, I feel like he might. He might be cocky enough to be like I'm going to try this thing, and you know what the we are so well prepared for that. We have an amazing pro bono, legal team that come on board with just in brown that we We welcome the opportunity to destroy them in court warming. At this point, it's gone through several times and I feel that you. I just assume that when you're analyzing J statements, you have this huge flow chart on your wall of each unit. Engine in discrepancy in it, and you can hand that, over to the attorneys to taken to court britain, had him read off police statements this day. You said this this day he said that you know I I I can only imagine how hard it was to even find all the discrepancies in his statements.

On another. No documentation of you know him his entire story of how, in the play the police on the agenda, and they want to know and then all we have proof that they didn't. They started with you know they began harassing them, and then we have as intercept interview that we can use to impeach him the autopsy Port busily shows that everything about the states case about how she was killed. A man she's very, is wrong, and we have subpoena power, and so now the team like this god we would subpoenas had got a very body we would oh defended is allowed to show alternatives to show alternatives, aspects in court there's a lot. We would want to probably about sellers and on I always lean lord sellers or mr asses as they call em. I, never really thought much of dawn myself, but what what's your take on both of them? I personally don't believe for a second MR as stumbled across the body the way he said he did

and you know we have another two investigators and are looking very closely at what happened. A date that he says he found the body and other stuff that I can't but I know, but there is something very shady there. I dont think that naturally means that he was involved, but I do think he might have ended up there. Looking at the feet of looking for her body. I don't know, for me, the way you know the story about how he found the body as far as dawn is concerned, I mean it's clear that he needs if I were to reopen the investigation. I would start with dawn because his alibi just doesn't hold up. He doesn't have an alibi which again doesn't nets wings. guilty you don't have to have an hour the light I think. What's concerning by them, Is that on top of that, an alibi was, it seems falsified at a time when nobody really knew anything had happened to her and that's definitely a matter of

I turned to me again: I don't think it means that innocent people do really good guilty looking stuff all the time they do they're scared, but I don't think it hurts to start there, and I also hope that you know, and if there is a new trial, we're definitely got one hundred. On the friends x. You know the hairs that didn't nash, J or non. Who will how come? Nobody else was taken here, samples rum, not door, not anybody in his family, so you ve got you ve nothing or principles. Are that we're identified? Well guess what dawn wasn't fingerprinted alonzo sellers was a thing a printed, is a world of investigation that needed to be done. That wasn't it's something I actually didn't know was that her body was found more or less in a depression in the ground which would go totally against the burying her. They didn't understand that may force levels that that's why the police never actually went to look for the sums there were no shovels. There was no digging, that's why why, like we, we know he kept getting confused. Oh we dug for twenty minutes.

Oh, we dug for an hour, I mean jay. I was shown the pictures of you know the crime, the the the burial site basically, and I think he was just trying to like to the best of ability to come up with a story that would match with that scene. Look like so while it might have looked like You know she was below ground surface, it's actually a natural depression. There it it's like under this hollow, so somebody just kind of laughter there and covered up with loose dirt Wasn't there wasn't a burial, I'm just very evidence based myself and to the point of sometimes being a detriment to where I'm not even sympathetic with her body? What's the the term, it's lividity, where the the What pulls up it was. It shown that she was lying flat, honour on our front, the oran honour products,

me for many hours, but yet when they found her body, she was on her side. He ass. He was a kind of twisted on her side in according to J statement, she was in a trunk or in a car, and he writes about. So how was I guess to me is: how is that supposed to happen? She was laying down. She balled up in a car and a trunk so little mean that's. The short answer is that it didn't happen. I think jamming hit wherever he was killed. I did it had to be a place where she her body could have been left face. down for around ten hours before it was me you know and undisturbed, so maybe a private area. I dont know if there are people who theorize Well, maybe add on killed her dumped. Her in lincoln park face down then went back to move her and my thing is: I mean there's two responses, number one. You can theorize everything, but guess what there's none civil witness? Who said that if you're gonna happen,

had on J. Why would jade lot just say? That's right, like that's not or this That is why would anyone you go back backed away murder victim and say now and when expose myself by moving her again, get isn't it. The other thing is this if he was actually had been killed, left in lincoln park face down while living to be set in I'll, we would see evidence of that either. The lividity, because when liquidity sets in and you can actually, since your science oriented you can you can look up on these photographs online when people die even on mattresses that have a lot of quilting and validity sets, and you can see the quilt remarks you can see it works like a person's underwear that body, because that the way the blood pools it leaves impressions on almost everything, so one of the most interesting things to me is the fact that there art a lot of marks and a body that would show that she was like lying on a leisurely. It's almost like she was on a very smooth surface. Yeah like a. I would assume like a basement floor of some time, maybe maybe

carpeted or carpeted floor. Maybe a bed, you know or have a blanket. I dunno something that didn't leave a lot of marks, not a trunk of a car that just unless you can tell me that a girl is five, eight can be laid out flat in the trunk of a car at no. I don't think so, and that's I guess that's. My whole problem is between NI prosecutors timeline and they say: wool. Here's this phone call and here's where she was found here- is this tower paying in this guy's statements link it up. But when you look at the evidence of the body, it blows the entire timeline out You know the the most concrete evidence we have of what happened to hate. That day is really her body is to look at that autopsy report, and that was something that Gutierrez really also, MR marinos, cereal also didn't look at all. It is important to start their especially, when, like me who decide what does the evidence tell us what was the dna? What was the fingerprint, what is the microphones

were found. Whatever it go. Well, no, I I can't accept it cause. I if I have to accept the prosecutions timeline now all the evidence needs to fit that, and it doesn't Again you I've, I wasn't there I'd know, nobody knows what happened that day, but we we have to reconstruct it the best we can and I feel, like a total limited and I wonder by the way, as this was cut the industry has been. Cost on about the labelling issue, and I think this is a minor bloodletting when Jason up. Interview came out and all of a sudden he changed the burial time to midnight. I was like. Oh, that's really can, really interesting, because that is probably closer to this time. She was actually buried, and I cannot but wonder honestly at that. Had a subpoena power? I hope we have is to know whether he is he's still in touch with state actors who are telling him. Now you have to change our story to this. I don't know I don't

beyond the pale, I really don't baltimore shady I mean I don't know. If you've read that the o J report, it's pretty bad yeah and I don't want to go on a total jay bashing fest, but when he made his public statement, what was it like two three years ago again he changed his story. He talked about the trunk pop again and I was like wait a second, but you you've at least sync it up with one of your prior statements and then I can at least say well. At least he was somewhat consistent, but even if you die does the tarp up to me. What was, I think, some of the most first of all the barrel, I am such a big difference in the burial time like you're saying. Suddenly it's like the middle of the night instead of seven pm and there's you can make the argument to me. I didn't want to tell people that the trunk pop happened to my grandma's. Protecting grandma. Explain to me. How does your grandma figure into seven pm vs midnight, there's no advantage to grandma? if you change your trying to protect her biking, seven p m, so the other thing that I thought was really just kind of mine.

Within our some interview was j now saying or two things saying that he never was at the bare he didn't see her body be buried. He never actually, All he did was drive cars around again for a non, but he was never the burial site where, in his previous statements, has given all these details of, she was twisted like this, and we we dug for this money, this many minutes at him, saying that I dont know that she was for the best buy. I was told that who told you that that's where the trunk pop happened was at the best buy parking lot like it's just one of the versions here, one of the versions. So I guess I did to me it's when do you say the sky no longer is credible. That's that's always been my my problem. Their lesson for the state it is far is some of his appeals. They really disregarded asia. They they disregard,

did some adnan statements on his saying that he didn't leave the school he didn't. Do you know buddy dig, He went to the library. Just it's really intriguing to me that they will use it against the defence or the accused, but the people attack the prosecutors they can get away with saying whatever they want, whereas the accused has to literally say the exact right thing at all times. Otherwise it is used against them Oh yeah, I mean like any discrepancy from the defendant in our defence. Witness is pounced on like this is another. What happened asia in the pcr hearing in February? The prosecutor was like really really a manner. If you read her book and I wasn't sequestered bought, I must follow everything in dumb I Susan, is amazing. Susan simpson was sitting the route it and she literally wrote. I think almost tuner pages of notes hike almost transcribing what was happening so you know, but the price

Where did that over and over go to asia? You know like trying to attack every little discrepancy. This is like again a teenager who wrote a letter to anon trying to just you know helpful- and I remember this so yet. This is a problem. When it comes witness you're. Like all you take your witnesses that you, as you find them on that somebody, who's who's gonna, I mean you know when you were you're talking. My life putting her away for life or even the death penalty. In some cases, your standards have to be a little bit higher for your witnesses. I think that that's kind of how I I feel about a lot of cases I cover is, I don't even know if this guy's innocent or guilty, but at the end of the day I want the system to do the right thing and I want them to truly prove that they are guilty and not, not be it based on some sort of his alibis, not admissible or o. His his background is admissible, like hausa possible how, as an alibi,

not admissible, but his religion is in I've. Seen so many cases where a man cheats on his wife and they dig up this email that he said to his mistress from two years before the murder and the like see, look he had motive in its thinking. How is that admissible? But then him, at work the day that she was murdered is not admissible. There are some crazy cases, I was in full of last week and I met with people from pennsylvania, innocence, project and uneven showcase, some cases in which is another If a ball, where you have the evidence of the defendant, literally being at a different place like video evidence of him being in another place at the time of the murder occurred, and hey. You know for some reason: it wasn't presented at trial defendants convicted and now they cannot bring it up on appeal or like precluded. It's tragic and it's that's the problem with the system that we are designed to get convictions and not necessarily get justice when a prosecutor does not bring charges against somebody, whether b,

a police officer or maybe a politician or something to that effect. I mean sometimes it's very upsetting you like hey- that that guy absolutely did something bad, but do you ever feel like will that's actually the way the the system supposed were before bring charges? There's most of that, everything in and understand were where this person stan. I definitely I think, look I know they were in a policy field policy the eu just coming on extremism, and a lot of that also requires gonna. Looking at a terrorism cases that are brought in the country and eat out there legal, you have laws and the laws determined, they should determine like into the kind of charges that we brought, but I'm not gonna pretend that there isn't a selective bias against the kind of charges that are, but it is true that poor black people get every charge in the world. Throne. them. You know, whereas, if you are maybe a little privilege, maybe have the means to live, we defend yourself. A prosecutor might not try that there are,

amazing, wonderful prosecutors out there who really do the right thing and there are others who are trying to get it and so what they do. Is they pile up all the charges they could conceive of and hope that its enough to get the defendant to display guilty. And a fold and not really fight it, because they don't have the the wherewithal to do it. I you know I do recognize. Sometimes, if a police officer is charge like they don't have the requisite elements you know to meet the statutory requirements of that charge. Those things have to be looked at its true for terrorism. Cases, honest and because I know that, sometimes he will say well that person is x, Y and z and how come he wasn't charged with terrorism. Well, there's elements you have to meet: you know to to be charged with certain crimes, ethics, is a chess and Y see is the next instalment of the award winning anthology series american horror story created ryan, murphy and brad fell chuck with to all episodes airing each week it promised to be a season like no other

It s an y, see stars returning favorites like Zachary window and Billy lord, along with them. faces, including Russell Toby and Charlie carver, something Evil is coming at boxes. yes and Y, see premiers october nineteenth on ethics stream on hulu. Another question just to kind of did your take on something that I was thinking about is inadequate case. We ve shown that these cellphone tower pings do not add up to much, especially if you the timeline and everything, but the data that they were getting from them does not specifically set their their location. in the stephen avery case, Kathleen Zol, saying that she is going to put teresa hobbamock somewhere else besides at the avery property, because of a cell phone tower, paying

I have a hard time resolving that, like I think, both with anon, if it doesn't mean anything and how can we make it means something in another case that is an I honestly, that's a question for us is in some sense who is like the excellent stuff up the case that we're looking at renown, undisclosed, joy, watkins on the cell phone evidence and the pigs are also going to come into play. One I think it's fair to say is even a cell phone pings generally I would say in a very reliable way. I'm can't tell you where you are: they can generally tell you where you're not of my tower it right now. I'm talking on the phone and I'm pinging inside san francisco. You can probably safely say that I'm definitely not baltimore maryland is so, but two, lay somebody exactly where they are in as far as I know, unless it's it's because of a different network or because the experts from from from that particular network, can

with us certain amount of reliability that no our network functions differently indefinitely, but Is this an I dont know teresa hall box phone, but I'm assuming it was also kind of like one of the old phones. It's not like a gps, and now we have gps and stuff on our phone. So you can tell exactly where a person is, whereas before the technology wasn't that it was like the ping, but what a tower ping I think the most the closest thing to a reliable assessment we can make is that if a phone pings in a tower it's most likely, the phone is in the region, the tower cupboards and that region can be really vast That region is also completely unreliable because of this if there is like an unkind of interference from one reads and it can be balanced, another tower or attack overloaded and can be found in the tower. So I dont know I look forward to seeing what dollars would the argument she's gonna make in this case is, but if she could show example that whole box the fallen ping, the tower that was is complete,

the way out of the region that it might be safe to make the argument that while we don't know exactly where she was, she duckling was not in this region. But I don't wanna see I'm not. completely clear and it seems, and even I've had a conversation with susan she's. It was on. The networks are different, so depends on. The networks depends on like you know that when in time we're hungry technology. Ninety nine versus two thousand vipers, two dozen. Sixteen, and there are so many factors here. The other question I had is in the book you're you're talking about how adnan was not asking for help from anybody and if you go and you find Sarah and and you you drum up this attention for him now, he he did eventually give give his blessing for this. But did you feel, like you, were kind of going behind his back

you feel like you were. You were like, I guess, betraying him when you first started going to the media. No, I didn't, I didn't think I was betraying him. I felt like I was I felt like. I was just doing that the the thing that he was scared to do or anybody you know I just feel like. I just thought it goes, the right thing to do and dumb. I figured that if we found the right journals, obvious at the end of the day, if I found a journal, an advance had no, I'm not doing it. That would be the end of it. You know, but in the end, that the choice would have in his so I knew that you always him in his family can obviously always trumpet decision like this, but ah I could we knew is pcr and I knew we had nowhere us to go so. saw nothing to lose. What did you ever think that syria would become number one in all the podcasting world, no she's gonna do apart

ass. At a note upon has was I really thought it would become of this american life episode in the one you know our upset. And I actually didn't think it would help our case at all. To be honest, I didn't care what Sarah was going to produce. I really cared investigation, I was hoping over the course of that aid months that she will be able to talk to the right person find the right thing. Maybe somebody would say something that would give us something new to go back to port. With that. I was hoping for. I wasn't really thinking about the end product because I didn't think a one hour show was going to do anything for us, yeah and and to be honest, we we I attempted to cover this case on the generation y. In an hour you can't it just doesn't work like if you think about it. Sarah, to twelve episodes. We've done forty, an undisclosed, bob rough on truth and justice. Podcast, it's like thirty, So there is a lot to be said, but but because a serial you have barbara, you have all of this commodity, even if Sarah didn't exactly do what you wanted or didn't say,

or follow a certain narrative? She open? the door two worlds that modern. that or semi legal value. There's no arguing that I, like, sir, Why I can't say that I was the biggest unlike other people were, but I thought it was well produced in and I very much enjoyed it, but when you started undisclosed that's the meat of it. That's what I really wanted to hear was the the in the sticks. You know analyst of the the legal system and and the that so to me, cereal was kind of more popular to get the the rear. Ass if to listen, but then to get the details and it's on value. I mean like if we had doesn't this clause? Nobody would paying attention may know the bbc. me reporting. On the case I mean so cereal was absolutely necessary for everything else to happen, and it brought like you said: if open the doors to to the people like citizen,

then bar column, and so many so many others behind the scenes who have really contributed to the case in a very tangible way, I will say, though I thought I knew a lot about this case. I thought I had the details down until I read your book It really opened my eyes to a lot more things and it really does dig into a lot of details that I might have just kind of had a cursory observation of or just stop you know. So, even with your undisclosed podcast, there was things in your book that I didn't hear in your podcast. I was like wow. I didn't know that I didn't know had not had actually met. A female, however, is at present and looked so. Undisclosed is not about. The human into story is really about the legal investigative stuff going on. We out that's what you ve. Never nuns never been on this, although we had thought about interviewing him, but I think it's better that we didn't. Even you know we were precluded from it, but I think it turned out better because

We are not focusing on other human interest thing like cereal, that we just went right too. The meeting potatoes of the actual case, and but the book obviously had to bring in like that. personal stories connected to all this agenda, and I really wanted to give it on a chance. Like his own words and the stories and nobody else was able to supper. I really felt I was in his head reading your book and sometimes forgot I was reading your words. I thought I was reading his and I realize you have a lot of his letters and excerpts and there, but you really are close to him and you were able to portray that night I really enjoyed had I. I was really floored by the book to tell the truth what the response has been really good. A lot of reviews are good and and for me I was very concerned about the literary reviews I'm like god. I don't want to write a book, and people like this is a terribly written book. So you know I'm I'm. I feel very thankful that that people are enjoying the book. I I won't ask about negative.

Thanks, but people always say wild undisclosed, robbie issues, just on on his bandwagon. Do you think that that does not detract from what you have written, nor what you ve done form so far I dont. And like that's what an advocate does yeah. That's my that, as as somebody who has a family friend a big sister like what do people expect from me, I mean- and I actually find I'm very offended we offended when people say to me ya. Will we think he's in of this? Now? We think he's a psychopath, because I feel like saying what you say that his mother, like you, don't understand like mike, and that my relation with a non is like as a black eye fiercely defensive. Because he's like a little brother to me and I hope I would not have spent fifteen seventeen years of. here is an prayers for somebody who, I didn't believe almost completely some of this- and I have heard people say things like in things online. I've heard people say well, you know she private wants to get em. But she knows that he might have been

well done with that's the most ridiculous. How unprincipled without b I mean- and these are people we sit on Mono me and dont know him so offer people who cannot take. a story from somebody who is like close to a story. Well that precludes you from a lot of stories, and I and I dunno what to say to that. I just don't know what to say. To that. I mean don't read it don't follow it. Move on with your life. That was the sad part. Is people were accusing Sarah that was serial. I'm like, I actually thought surreal was pretty unbiased. I thought she did. A pretty good job was far as trying to stay neutral in there Yes, you did when you know even the idea that she should be neutral. I mean I got older stilicho. What point did elysium devolve until we are just reporting. The facts I mean investigative journalism takes a stand it and it takes stand and it, but it bases that on evidence right so there's nothing wrong with it taking a stand as long as you have the evidence to back it up. So I thought I was a very unfairly to say, sir. I thought she. The whole thing is complicated for herds

you read about, how complicated was read on and for all of us, but for her to be like almost robot and not have any kind of human reaction to any of this is a crazy expectation and for anyone that has yet to buy your book, that chapter of how Sarah and and him are interacting in all the things going through his head and what he should share and how he should talk to her. It's very intriguing, because I never thought of that, and I might have done the same thing he did was. I don't want her to live me for me. I want her to get to the truth and I'm not going to share myself with her, because I want her to base it on facts and not off my personality. I mean it's the most terrible dilemma because ass from a you know ever since the judge said dimmer eighteen, they, being a nice person as you being manipulative, Can you imagine there, like? Oh my god, if I'm nice people think I'm manipulative like how do you?

live your life like. What do you do that not be a nice person like what it's it's terrible, what they that psychologically did to him exactly, you can't be totally empires. You have to take a stand I know that even air in an iron generation, why we ve gone back and taken down some old episodes in redid them, because we didn't take a stance. We just said here is the evidence you decide and they were really flat. Therewith cared I won't keep you too long. I know you're you're busy in your at the hotel, and I really enjoyed this conversation so much as I appreciate it already have a given

Do you hear that It's a little space for mindfulness become the meditation pie gasped in fifteen that's her less become your space to unwind. Listen sclusively on amazon, music or simply telling I could devise alexa play the podcast become