I got them to the generation wifi cast mike. Please introduce yourself. My professional aims, Michael w street on the author of scotch cobb, drawing a line against crime. I'm a friends like artist, any retired police sarge,

with over thirty years of experience in police investigations, police work and forensic facial imaging and real quick forensic facial imaging for those who don't know what is it that was a mouthful. Yes, it some its. I take, facial images and I correct them for the police in terms of a facial identification purposes in the event that they have an unknown perpetrator, that a witness will describe or an unknown murder victim who they're seeking the identity of and, of course, your friends. That is just the the tag line or the the word that it gives it that scientific field. But I I provide investigative support, mostly for police detectives, who are can identify people whether there are suspect or a deceased victim, absent whether there an sub is the fbi likes to call them or an unidentified homicide victim, ok and

before. We really get into it. You written a book which I just finished, reading titled sketch cop, and how did you come about wanting to write this book? My late wife had suggested several years ago and I I didn't think for a minute about writing a book until she suggested it, and I kind of looked at her like she was crazy. So look at your file camera there. She said yep cases that you've worth of have made headlines over the last few years and I think it's something people would want to worried about so I started writing it and I it was for me it was great therapy because she was going through chemotherapy at the time for her cancer and such and so while she was recovering from her treatments, right in that I found that the more I researched these This is the more fastening the stories became because, even though is involved in them from the artist standpoint, I had limited indeed.

Admit, I knew enough about them, but when I start really digging into the dirty details so to speak, I was even fascinated. It's amazing how a wife can give you advice and our instinct is not to go with it, but in the and they're, almost always correct of you, know what even even my even my wife I'm married to now. She she likes to always tell me that I'm correct but a lot of ways, she's correct as well and- and I think that women have very good instinct- that more of us men should probably listen to that's right. We don't want to wind up on the couch of course or somewhere else, one of the first things I noticed you bring up in the book. The ident the kit and the e fit, and the former is is what is known as the united states of america, and the latter is how it's known in the? U k. Can you give us a rundown of what these are, or both of them were the predecessors to the software programs that we have

day and the identikit was a box. It was a wooden box actually full of what they called foils, but they were small pieces of acetate that had codes on them and in facial features, and the operator would sit down with the eye witness and they would select these parks and they would overlay them much like you'd, be putting a puzzle together and paper clip them together to come up with a face. So it was very fairly primitive now, but then it was the hottest thing going. The effects. was the english version of that same sort of principle, note a series of parts that were connected and or overlaid together to come up with a suspect image. So back in the day, this was the best way to be able to show a group of people, investigators or possible witnesses. Here's what the suspect looked like right

correct and internationally for its time you know it was the identikit came was invented, I believe, in the late fifties, and and saw a lot of wide use throughout the sixties and seventies. Me I remember when I came on the job in nineteen. Seventy seven was still around, but was the best I could do. I mean it was so primitive that if you want to put a beard and moustache on the person they would supply a grease pencil for you to do that with, but at the time was the best thing going and they they actually did have some success with it yeah. I liked that you could put the basics down the type of eyes or the hair, but then the sudden you have this greece pencil and you can add a mole or a mustache now, with the software program that I create with my company. This protest else gets caught. They sat and we'd sketched all those parts and through them in their of so when the officers and the or the desire to put them together and look like an artist sketched it and now, courses with

shop and all the digital tools and stop. It takes a greece, pamphlet concept and it's like on steroids, and it makes the image much realistic. Looking and much more like what people expect a police guess, the look like yeah really struck me: how being a sketch as you are an artist, so the more tools you have, the more you can customize this image and probably have greater success right in the head. Build yeah says it's like I like to to tell my clients, when you use this computer software and the tools that are available, and even when I use digital tools, it increases I witnessed satisfies satisfaction, therefore, increasingly likelihood someone's going to be identified, of course, is no guarantees, but the happier the eye witness of the victim is my walk out the door, the better the opportunity to capture the crook so to speak, and the digital tools allow us to do that. Another question related to this: how did you get him

called in sketching because it made me wonder if you had a background in art or if this was just something that you dedicate yourself too in and had to start from the bottom I definitely started from the bottom. I mean my background was in cartooning. I was like every kid that doodled and drew cartoons and wanted to be a a disney artist. That's how started. I was a kid but finishes lessons in school early in and have the teacher come round and grab my pencil paper because I was drawing? his motorcycle. That was drawing everything, but what I was supposed to be doing in class. I guess, even though it got good grades to finish my work always so when it came time to choose career. I mean I knew that unless you were you created initial self, somewhere the average artist just wasn't making money. That was the whole starving artist thing. So my father is a plea, the officer, and there were always police officers around the house. I mean all hours of the day and night I mean there are always around, and so I loved the

stories I loved helping people, I love standing up to bullies and protecting those who couldn't defend themselves when I was in school, so I took that path and police work. No one night, I saw a television news cast in they showed a composite on screen and that's when I had the opinion like. That's it, that's how I can take my art and combined police work and have the best of both worlds. The problem was, I wasn't a portrait artist by trade, so is, as you can see, like an arrow chapters. The book, like the very first chapter, that the discussion is very raw. Looking you can see that there are some anatomy there it it. It looks like the beginnings of a something good. Several years to refine and train and get to where I was happy were. I was I consider myself a true like facial portrait artist Is there some certification for this trade, or is it just bring in a portfolio and show people here

What I can do, while there is certification through the international association for identification, there is a clarification as in forensic art. There's a certification for many things, but the discipline of friends a guard has its own. I am certified, but really it ended the day, yo its role all about how you can communicate because you can be the best artist in the world, you can be like Michelangelo rembrandt picasso, whoever, but if you cant connect with people in the end, I would tell people like ok, certification, no certification, I see that you're nor their strong dry skills are important, but even more important is the ability to connect with people. If you cant connect with someone and in retrieve that information from their memory put it on paper. Then you must go down the boardwalk indra portrait. they alone, because no amount of certification. No man of education, no matter artistic skills, is going to give you that right

I imagine that your law enforcement background also help with this. It did. But the thing is like when I first Pardon me I mentored toward under water. Repeat his famous artists and yeah. He was a really good guy and I just didn't getting is a fantastic artist. I was up on the whole, you know the who, what why one where and how type of questioning the just a fax man, I'm Joe Friday, dragnet type of energy, and so it was a rough start for me, because I was used to speaking and deal with people certain way you can deal with people who are the victims, a traumatic crime, the same ways, over time. I evolved in refined minor, his style sucks, where I got people really comfortable with me really fast and have come up with some really amazing work yeah. I would imagine if they're, not comfortable, the stress of the situation can cause them to not pull up

information they need, or just something assembles worry uniform like when I first our doing this I was assigned to patrols, has problems this like him in, and here I was sitting across the table from somebody. Knowing that I have the table is a bear, here between us now here I'm sitting there is uniform, big shiny badge, gun people hate coming to the police station. The first place like going to the data, as you know, even if they're not in trouble, they hate going there. So he have all these accoutrements and in in all the paraphernalia, and you have this look of authority, people, we can open up all that much is it's someone life favourably artists that you know had no beards network or civilian clothes they had this aura buttons, cool persona and ever

it has their own style and their own way of doing it, and I developed my own way in terms of how I decorated my office, how I approached people, I greeted people to kind of set the stage for the interviewing to come up with something that they would be happy with. Something it'll be useful for detectives. One of the very first stories that you cover in the book- and it might be my favorite story that you convey to the reader, is about a man named Duane Mckinney and it had to do with a shooting at a burger king. What can you tell us about this? Well, it was one of my first cases and We and I was actually working that night when a burger king restaurant was robbed in the west end of our sitting, and it happened just as the decisive for changing one group of officers were coming off duty. We were going on for overnight shift personally, in their rob, the place took it over walked all the witnesses.

Employees. In your walk in when in the art is confronted the man I got the money and, in short, executed this twenty four year old kid who had a wife. There was home pregnant with their first child, and it was this tragic and so detectives head receive information about some gang members, in LOS angeles, doing like jump in andorra like gang, ritualistic, robberies and such an so they breathed receives and photographs, and his gang members and dumb had found one that match the composite. and they had some witnesses, come in and identify them and had some other scant circumstantial evidence and to make a long story short. This man, dwayne Mckinney, was convicted of the bring the murder of walter bell was the victim in this case, and he spent nineteen here in prison. I believe before information

it's through that exonerated him of the crime, and you know he was just the real forgiving person I mean he could he had every reason me angry at the world when it came out, because I mean almost twenty years, was life stolen from them, but he came out and nearly had the christmas circles. Real popular speaker received it A cash settlement, as he showed, is well deserved from the city in the county. I believe in the state I mean that they give some compensation body and soul, he didn't really know what to do with it and he had a friend say: hey look, you know, maybe you should invest in some atm, and so he went over to hawaii and saw there were no items over there really and he started looking at tourist trades or putting two and two together and invest in a string of atm became a millionaire

at the oceanfront home in hawaii really got up on his feet and recovered, and, and it was it was a great story and had a really horrible beginning, but it had a great ending until the tragedy. The real tragedy came as his when he was involved in an accident, he's riding a moped on on on the island there in hawaii and was struck by a car and killed, and it was a real tragedy and I felt bad because the guy lost a lot of his life. But it was one of those cases where he looked like the sketch and why didn't realize at the time when I was doing some research, is that I actually did a second sketch in that case, as well from another witness who look like the person who eventually figured that it probably was, but the public defender's office, you know, messed up the case to where they can never prosecute this person. So I've got one sketch. It looks like Duane mckinney, the wrongfully convicted guy one sketch. That looks like the person, who probably did it.

Never be brought to Justice- will never be prosecuted for it. So I mean I I mean I could jump up and say: oh, I didn't put him in prison because but the the but the sketch was the there was the very beginning of the chain of events that led to that. Will one of the things that a sketch can't quite convey, though, is height right and wasn't there about three inches difference between Duane Mckinney and the man? who probably did this, which was raymond jacket, the third the there was there was a height discrepancy. Also, you remember, can you also suffered a shocking windows cap in an instant

I buy. Shooting in los angeles, may try to kill him, and so there was question whether he could even vault the counter like the witnesses described. So you had, and you know what what I witnessed doctor expert against another. I only have one said he could vault counter ones that he probably couldn't vault counter. If you read the story, think okay well, are some discrepancies, but there's a lot of similarities and it was just one of those tragic cases where people had the best intentions, but at the same time there are a lot of things that went horribly wrong and in it's like when people asked me what I think of have I witnessed cases. I think eye witnesses are very good, but I think you know if, if somebody matches the composite sketch, then the detective it's up to detect with to do the due diligence in the research and try to corroborate that identification and or try to you know, tie the person to more than just a sketch. True, you provide one aspect of it

and then the detectives after work, the rest of it. Another thing that struck me about this was Charles hill, who met him early on in prison and then almost years later met him again and in and was willing to write a statement that would end up helping him get out. I mean he wanted a notarized, he was that sure of it, and this is the thing the information came in earlier, but against slip through the cracks somebody dropped. The ball, you know somebody dropped the ball in the public defender's office, so it wasn't just the the prosecution side. It was the other side in Roy too. It's kind of this return. His office, credit and twenty were cock, as is currently the district attorney They is every reason to drag their feet, but they didn't you

if they got him out of jail right away and ended the investigation, we're willing to admit that a mistake was made and and work very hard to make a right right and and credit to Charles hill, who, like mckinney, had a criminal background but still came through for somebody. When didn't have to you didn't out, and then this is a thing I mean I've north over the course my crew the course my life, I've known plenty of people, criminals, non criminals like criminals that- and I would invite all my house for dinner, give my home address, but that doesn't make them less. Believable would because you're behind bars or because there are criminal in an instant somebody should take their information you're on and gave a more credence instead, just like setting aside and dropping the ball. Otherwise dwayne might have been out of jail a lot sooner. This episode brought to you by peacock bridge, ending the original limited series, a friend of the family based story of the Jan roper, kidnappings from nick and

oscar executive producer of the act and candy and after producer eliza hip and comes a dark compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produced which amber burke herself. This theory stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream now only on peacock taxes, age, ass and Y see is the next instalment of the award winning anthology series american horror story created ryan, murphy and brad fell chuck with to all new up it's airing. Each week it promises be a season like no other it s an y, see stars returning favorites like Zachary window and Billy lord, along with some fresh. Mrs, including Russell Toby and Charlie carver. Something evil is coming effects:

age, ass and Y, see premiers october nineteenth on ethics stream on hulu now another case, and I want to talk about this one because it highlights working with someone who most people wouldn't think would be able to give you a good description, and they case I'm talking about is ten year old, anthony our team is who is obstructed in nineteen? Eighty seven, you know and that's what those cases would work shoulder eye witnesses. I have no problem with children's. I witnesses. I've had them as young as five and in every instance they ve been very accurate. The anti martinez case fearlessness, was it ten year old boy objected, but twenty feet from his front door, and the only eye witnesses were as an eight year old brother and his ten year old cousin, and they witnessed the abduction and they alerted the the

who in turn or the authorities, and they were able to provide me a very very close- a composite was very, very close resemblance to the suspects. All italy arrested and is sitting on federal death row right now, but subsequent to that, the samantha running case described in the book where the witness was five years old and I have had a couple of other cases, not in the book where the I witnesses were five years old and they were remarkably accurate, young martinez case you had said how there was a lot of pressure on you, especially the media, but possibly the detectives as well they really wanted to move on this case they did. I mean I, I received a phone call enroll right away on it and during the interview I've got people. Coming in the door wanting the scarcely on one of the things we see. Some a tap on there was saint come on, come on, come on in

it was really annoying, not from the standpoint of it was pressure. I made it quite friendly ticking off, because I have very good friends and news media in the new media It plays a tremendous role in helping the successful conclusion in a resolution resolutions these cases, but I I tried to tell him I said: look I don't work for you know their deadlines me. I work to get this right and, of course that was before the Roy took off a social media in real time type of transactions in such but always a lot of pressure when there's a lot of pressure on any case, but particularly with children. I had a case the other day, where I did three different sketches from three different witnesses: It's on a high pressure case for some guys were engraven young girls on their way to school, police departments. Fill the pressure, to solve these cases, and anybody who has some sort of forensic experts

where there is neither a have to examine some sort of evidence or be some like myself has to interview the. I will discover the sketch a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. You take your time to make sure that the sketches is good and his accurate, as you can make it and then some tea like in the martinez case. It ends up being useful in a way, but in a case like that, there are four or five years that go by before or there is a real movement on the case where they. Finally, can narrow down in zero, and, I suspect, absolutely there. That case went called for a long time. Number of earth and we have some cases I've had resolved in less than a minute. I've had em go on like the anti markings case for

I update yours, I think that's where it was when he was finally arrested in conjunction another crime, and there are some cases I've provided sketches for that have never been solved. You get this sketch and youth believe to the best of your ability. This is is the suspect- and you have no idea well later, just how accurate your sketches right. Eventually you get the person who did it or the. I should say the the person who did it is arrested and prosecuted, and you can look at their photograph next year sketch and compare them, and I know from your book there been some sketches that are just eerily. Similar to the person and catching the annals of the best case scenario. I mean a lot of my peers. All we owe them I'll tell you you know I got so many, but the call a in the business in my question of them is always well how many of them were. As a result, the sketch verses

dna or a fingerprint like and I've had cases where the sketch had absolutely nothing to do with solving the case, but yet the person still looked like the sketch and they capture him through a dna or fingerprint, and I've had other, cases in the last six months. At a case, back in baltimore, were I provided sketch in one case and a detectives invest getting another one, a similar crimes, sexual assault and m somebody else's yacht looks like I arrested a guy last week and provided the debt. his name. They got a dna profile and match them up to two to four cases, so it works both ways, but I would never be want to take credit for you know, I'm always

I'm always thrilled when it looks like the suspect and quite honestly, the end of the day, because what I provide is just a tool and I'm not really jumping up and down take the credit. I'm always amaze, myself still yeah it's your contribution. It is, I had a great time you know, running down. Crooks in the street chased him on foot chastened, my cars, and but you know I always wanted to be able to do something different. That set me apart and gave me even further reach the end. The ability reach out to identify criminals and such- and this was my way of assisting my community, exploiting a skill I had and and being able to set myself apart from from my peers and other people in the business. What year did you really start doing this full time? In what year did you retire as a sergeant in the police force? I took my first sketch training in

january of nineteen, eighty, I believe, was late. Seventy nine early. Eighty right, I never did a full time. I did it as an ancillary duty, in that I freelance ask I moonlighted, so to speak when in my off hours, for for other local agencies that hired me to do it am I retired, as a police sergeant, two thousand and eight, and it wasn't until two thousand and eleven when I was hired by the baltimore police department to start up their friends at facial imaging unit in their crime laboratory and become their first full time ever sketch artist. So when you are a full time sketch artist are you, civilian at that point. At that point I was asleep I was heartened is a civilian in the laboratory and which was fine. You know I I'd already had enough. You know running a gun and chasing crooks down and stuff, so it's nice to be able see it from the other side, but they provide me a lot of autonomy because it was a new program.

And so my clients who were the detective. I wanted to make sure that they were happy I was living away, my family side plenty of time, so I was working twenty four seven, They call me in the middle of the night calming the weekend in one case was more outrageous than the one before in terms of the circumstances. And just a sheer violence yeah. I wasn't quite sure, because here you are with all this law enforcement experience, but then you retire, and yet you find yourself back in a police station, essentially right, yeah funny how that works. You know, but you know it's police work itself when you're in a uniform or your detector or whatever it's it's a it's a young man's game. I always liken it to professional athletes. I mean they've got to a certain shelf life when they're at their peak, and you know it's getting more violent. and the demands physically. Emotions are much greater now than ever before. So I had the chance, retiring and get out of my mind and body still intact

was different as a civilian, the pressure for me, to make sure that I could get everybody that needed my help. I was like a kid in a candy store. I love doing what I did and, as a matter of fact, I had a woman asked me one time: don't you retired senior, drawing I said no, I loved a dry said, but even more so I said, are you fasting people come to mind everyone has a story to tell me I interviewed people from opera singer is too doctoral students. Gay members profit grandmothers and me I've been choked nearly death during air view by sexual assault victim I mean one guide limped in had survival, nine stab wounds, but thought if the you know come in and see me to describe his attacker and just great stories. Just you know fascinating people that I just absolutely fell in love with just loved helping yeah. That must be really satisfying, knowing that you're there to

this and to help people who others are trying to victimize or harm for stupid? Thanks for silly things, I mean As long as I've been on this earth in his life, I've been in la force. I've never ever seen any good reason for these people to do what they do. Each other and then sometimes it's just for the sheer for just the hell of it just because they could. It's certainly no way to treat another human being. That's for sure what is your most famous sketch? Do you believe, a sketch that you drew related to a case that the audience would definitely know about or have the chance of knowing about given their interest in true crime. If you're in southern california- and you keep track of these things- even nationwide said samantha, runnion abduction and murder, that case made national international headlines back in two thousand to yours,

was five years old. Plainer. Five euro playmate in an alley was abducted by tall stranger, raped and murdered body dumped. you're my home here. Actually, that was the case that had news lined up in front of my house for two days and I really to know how how I came up with this astonishingly, accurate sketch from a five year old, because nobody believes five year olds, on the flip side in turn other cases I was working with america's most wanted back the late nineties, helping them promoted facial composite software product and they sent me down about rich louisiana today a sketch of who would later become known as the battery serial killer directly taught, and he was he was killing college coeds and another women back in the nineties. Another case that is covered in your book that, frankly, it is pretty surprising we had this idea in her head and I know you'd worked

spell this idea in the book, but we have this idea that criminals sort of look a certain way. They act a certain way, but there is a case that you cover where criminal is someone most people would expect, and that's the murder of janey pang, yes and she married danny pang. She used to be an exotic dancer and there was a day where she's at home and the housekeeper answers the door and the person at the door looks very professional looking and asked to come in to see janey. Can you take us through this bizarre case? Sure happened in vila per california, which is a wealthy on club in orange county. Ten thousand people- it's it's right now harvested. it warns. City warrants were pleased with this kind of wrapped itself around the city. Very wealthy people, professional sports athletes live there and so

this woman who were j paying the victim who was once is unexacting answer she married danny, paying. Who is an investment entrepreneur similarly a great life had a complicates? Now she rollerblade attack I read your garden and you know- had the life and one day, there's a knock at the door and and the housekeeper answers and invites his person in and next thing you know he pull the gun. I was brief cases first chasing around the house and chases genie upstairs and she goes into clause and tries to close the closet door guy fires. One round to the closet hits her in the chest kills are installing. I was called to do a sketch in that case, and it turns out that they had somehow focused on danny paints. who wrote some money, and so they figured that he was the most likely suspect people said the other day I strongly resembles him the herself very distinct, in a figure? He warfare must ask as italy they never mustache

and so about the time the police were looking for him he'd stages on suicide happened was as you. He went on the run for four years and live in the life of yesterday when they finally caught up to him, but they rested for the murder and took him to trial and he was acquitted by the jury, and that was pretty much the end if there was really nothing done on the case afterwards, because he was the only suspect at the time. Of course, you know the the defense was was doing their job and their their job is to bring up reasonable doubt they start telling stories about how danny pang was involved. With this, these chinese triads and organised crime and such and I owed everybody money in and is what kind of interesting, because I had that was later on after he married another woman, she's about an auto action. He had responded at the scene

and then later on. Of course, he he died himself, but they still dismissed he killed her, and so the suspect, this guy, a lawyer, would be the last person you think would. Would the crime like this and in Heaven he looked like a warm. He looked it maybe look this picture in the book. You never get this guy. Would your harm anybody, especially in the way that he pursued her through the house as pre mac I mean than did the behaviour was, was he was pretty deter and then of course, yes, there, there were other allegations that she had a stalker and, of course the police were able to verify. He was out of the country the time. So in again it's I don't know, others since guilty or not. All I know is that you know the police said the evidence. The sketch looked a lot like him very much like him and.

it took it to trial and and really the defense didn't have to prove he didn't do it. I had to create reasonable doubt. So if the jury didn't necessarily believe he did it and they didn't have to have any belief on who did it just the fact that there's some reasonable doubt whether he did it or not? Once they acquit him double jeopardy applies and even if he jumped of snapple jelly, I did it can't prosecute him. It's done we'll, never know you look at the sketcher yeah. He did it. He looked at the circle Well yeah. He did it, but will we ever know? We don't know it's one of the great mysteries in the book. Writing it's also a mystery about Janie's husband danny because they ruled it a suicide. How do you take that situation? Do you believe he committed suicide or or was it something else boy? You know what I do. I dunno what I mean, there's there's so many things that that look like suicide and people. Just you know mixed filled the wrong way, and my guess is that there were some allegations of some fraud and some financial mismanagement and

been that the walls were closing in around him. I don't know enough about his latter life after the murderous such too to be formulated, an opinion about looking all the evidence, but he cut em, it's it's possible He could take taken his own life to avoid everything was crashing down around and financially in personally or could have been the other I dunno I like to believe you know these nefarious theories, these theories about how what happens and why things happen and stuff like that and then again apps and a suicide note. People in this house of the room saying committed suicide people on the other, half the room's going to say I think you just like an extra spills, her. It was an accident. So who really knows? Is there a sketch artist

It is either working now or had worked in the past. That, you would say, is the best sketch artists you know of this is the guy that I always held as the top sketch artist am. I have three people actually for different reasons and then their talked about in the book. I mean, I think that for the party whose the lapd's artist, I think he taught me lot about work ethic noon in working hard to you be able to achieve your It was an inch, a cio level excellence where people would recognize him, and I always tell my kids. You know if, if you're really good at what you do, no matter what it is work like I'm looking for you, you don't go looking for work and horace hafner who worked for the fbi for a number of years. drew the sketch of james or the alleged assassin of a document with their king. He taught me a lot about humility and in the end

into so the work, but always you know, staying true to yourself and in not taking too much credit for the successes, because it's really all about the victims and the witnesses and tom macros who's who's highlighted in the book very soulful, very laid back individual who he really got it. He was all about. You know the the technique and he was all about creating this atmosphere and then believing in your intuition and believing in your gut damn I mean, I think, if you combined all those three together, they all had a baby together, so speak as a joke goes on. You would be the perfect sketch artist, and I know that and ask your question.

pick one, but it's just hard to pick one, those three out of all the artists, I've known work row the year. Those three are the ones that were the most important to me for those reasons. Now, if you have three rather than one, it's not that rigid of a question it's just. Usually people can name one. If you have three that's great yeah. I have three for very different reasons. They were there at the very beginning of my career and they left an indelible impression on me just by their different personal traits that they had and how they approached the job and how they approached people. All three were very, very good with people, because at the end of the day, you cannot do this. I cannot emphasise enough that you cannot do this job with people without people in you. Don't want inject yourself too much. I mean I think what happens is is that sometimes people get so hung up on their art or they'll. So folks, and on is beautiful pictures or anatomically.

correct yeah. I know memory doesn't work that way. Where is that exactly people remember that much so I think when you start injecting too much of yourself into the drawing, you start losing your way and yet that is about the person and not about you, so they can. fill in any gaps or make adjustments as they look at the sketch, they'll. Think of the suspect or that's the idea that the eye witness looks at the sketching in and they can discern immediately what's wrong with that. What's right with it, and I always give people the admonishment that hey look, you know what I'm working for you today This isn't about me if I wanted to sit and draw pictures people's faces are gonna, get a job disneyland, but because this is about justice is about justice, for you, you taking part in the criminal justice system We create the synergistic relationship, were

it's your eyes, my hands and we come up with something happy. If you don't like it and pardon my french, but you know, if it sucks, just tell me how to fix it, you can criticize it all you want, but I've got a really thick skin. I won't get offended just tell me how to fix it and we pray his great relationships as great synergy and stuff and and they'll come through the door initially sometimes say. If I can help it with an hour or so they're like. While you know I could do that. You get him talking. They forget. either there and they get relax and start communications trimming if you're in a room,

if you don't do skirt or chair closer and start looking at the paper start really, you can start seeing the change how they they come in really uptight. If you do your job right, you're, just shucking and jiving you've got this great conversation going and it just works out wonderfully the audience. Might not forgive me if I don't ask this question but you're familiar with the Steven avery case right. Yes, now, in that case early on in the documentary they talk about this sketch. That's done that supposed to be of this man who raped his one and, and they end up arresting resting, Stephen avery for the crime, although later on dna reveals that it wasn't stephen avery, it was other man named Gregory Alan. Have you looked at the sketch that was drawn and if you look

to the similarities of that sketch and another picture of Stephen avery. I have not another. I heard there were allegations of the sketch being drawn from like a mug shot if somebody or something and so that there we might have been some tampering with the evidence or or something in terms of the the sketch itself and that's nothing. New. That's happened in other cases where the the sketch looks so remarkably close and almost looks like they copied a mugshot. So if you told me that's what somebody did, I wouldn't be surprised because it's happened before you say it's happened before. Do you mean on purpose or by accident on purpose? Okay, that's one thing that people wonder about is: could this happen and, of course the man who was the sketch artist? When he's asked about this, he said how proud he was of this sketch. It was his first

sketch that actually became news, so he was very proud of it. Yeah. That would be interesting to to hear the explanation, and you know what this is the thing nobody's going to back up and say yeah. I was told to do this. By so, and so you It philadelphia mob case mob, related case that happen here ago, same sort of thing. This person look remarkably like a mug shot persons. I didn t come out later that that's exactly what happened, so they haven't seen in every case again. Unless some he jumped up and says he I did it, I was forced to do it. I was told to do it or else You can speculate and conjecture all day long, and maybe he was that good. His first time out I mean I, you know what that is like the mckinney case. That was one of my first big cases to actually artists are proud of their work, but I'll rack, my brain

I figure out how I could have done better and if any buddha asked me say, hey look in a while. We you know we want you to draw this person has I think it is just a mug shot just create this dummy composite. I you know I w the day I got out of the business. This book has something very interesting towards the end of it and I believe it's just beyond the chapters where you talk about these other sketch artists, but at the very end of the book you lay out safety tips for people as I was reading through them, some of them seemed kind of obvious, but just having these lists in the back of the book. I think, is a good enough reason for people who are worried about personal safety. It's another reason to buy the book, and how did you end up deciding to put these in there? Is that your law enforcement side coming through in saying I want to put a little something extra into this book for people I really care

what people I really do, and I thought was a fitting way to end the book. Saying hey. You know what this is, how you can avoid getting in front of a sketch artist, but if you have to get them from a sketch arts and later on in the chapter, it talks about how to become a better eye witness. But if you have to get him from a sketch arson, then this is some things you may want to remember in terms of eyewitness identification it It's obvious. I even stayed in there and you know these things may be obvious to you, but they're good reminders to reinforce I'm not going to Guarantee that, following these will make you save, you may be able to think of some other things. But really we talk about these things seem obvious. They do and they are. But wouldn't you agree that walking down the street and looking down at yourself all walking Is not a smart thing to do right and that's why I think the roma, you're so helpful, because we're always thinking about our personal safety. It sounds crazy, but we aren't and The only way we can make ourselves safer is

just by knowing what we're supposed to do, but its by repetition, just as good police officer, wool practice fire training on a regular basis, a person whose word about the personal safety should be reviewing the steps they need to take when their walking to their car at night or walking down the street or getting right. Leave or enter their house unless you're thinking about these things, often enough, they will slip your mind, especially in a stress situation. Vessel engage in repetitive training. I can show you even I've been retired. Oh, my goodness, going on eight years now- and I still when I can, when I go into a restaurant- sit with my back to the wall. So I can have a clear view of the entrance and when I was on the job it would drive my wife crazy, because I would sit there in a restaurant. We'd be eating and she'd be talking

fuck your ass you'd, be thinking I wasn't listening to her. I said I hear every word you're saying, but I'm busy skiing the room, because that's what I'm trained to do now go back to the example, the cell phones. Everyone knows, you shouldn't tax while driving or walk down the street in and potential found me yet everyday in traffic. you say there lie in their summer texting going down the road and their risking definite during our themselves other people and no matter how many pierre says tell us not to do it. There are still people. Thinking is not going to be them before I finish here. Let's talk a little bit about your publishing company that you're a part of you release your book through, while boo press wobbly process- yes- and we ve had guessed sign from wildly present before john fabric and city jackson, of course, and how did you come too

who really about through, while boo press. While I was looking for a publisher, they understood the genre of true crime, and and understood when it took to make a book like that successful, in particular john rights to him. market, and so I read a lot about you know stephen in some of the authors of the dance signed wildly press set out what a great group, what a privilege to be part of this group, they are already all established authors in true crime, and so I went ahead, contacted the stephen and submitted some writing samples and we communicate in such an then they that the material I had and the the my perspective back backroom the great fit for their company in and they ve been great work. What they they've done, a great job. editing and designing the book and marketing in such a night, and I couldn't be happier yeah Imagine you probably get along pretty well with Steve he's

I agree that it is a good guys, a great mentor. He knows the business down and got great editors, the know how to historic flown and keep the energy going in, and I think that I was wanting to learn about you and publishing. This book is the value of a good editor. You came and talk about writing a book without having a good I am in a privileged I'm unable to be part of a groups and not have to self publish me. No knock on the people are self publishing at the. I think it's great, you might have that kind of control over a book, but when you start publishing in being published companies and deal editors and book cover designers and social media directors and stuff like that it can become over in, and I would rather focus on developing the story.

In writing, more stories in and leaving the rest of somebody else. So where can people find your book sketch cup they can find it by these places to go to amazon, dotcom others a kindle version available, as well as a trade paperback version available you also by a through wildly press, but though, the two places. The immediately come to mind. Of course you can get anything on amazon, so I just instantly send people to amazon dot com, but I think it. for anyone who is interested in what a sketch artists does, because our young people see these sketches these images all the time, and I just want the kind of ripped the veil offer the process itself and what it takes. to go into a sketch. Of course, in time. I thought these cases were so fascinating terms. The challenges I faced, the sketch artist but the overall circle.

Ass. The case from the very first gun shot fired the jail door slamming. I thought it was worth spending. You know a significant number of pages on each chapter to fully explain in delve into the cases in such because Roy S, people want right in the book. Does a great job of explaining the history of forensic facial imaging and giving some said. worries related to your sketch work, as well as some of the other sketch artists out there? So for anybody wondering what is the book? Like trust me, there's a good variety of stories and information in it. I really doubt anybody would have anything less than a positive experience reading the book there's a lot of sketch artists out there, a lot of people doing some great work. Looking at my statistics today and and she you don't know, I'm averaging over the last four or five years averaging over a hundred sketches a year and they re

in cases from simple assaults all the way to you know horrific murders and such and, of course that doesn't make me better than the next person, but what it does is it gives me a special insight into the field itself and what it takes to become successful at it. worse, you'll be when the busiest ones in the country gives me availability to these cases and in just make sure that one in four people, like re my stuff, it does me more books coming out on its a bit of a niche market. Isn't it is it is in the end. You know why are you now have the books, but also, if you're my website scared Gop dot com you'll see that you know the software. I sell the training I do for law enforcement, I'm a I'm in the facial biometric imaging now with the opposed correction, software for facial recognition systems, and I do face a reconstr

and most recently I was on the history. Channel, show alcatraz search for the truth, where frank, morrison and the anglin brothers escape from alcatraz and nineteen sixty two and they were presumed drowned in the san francisco bay and the family recently came up with some photographs taken of the two brothers, the anglin brothers in the nineteenth seventies, allegedly south america, and I helped break the case wide open again. When I looked at the pictures and did analysis and determined that it was more unlikely other, they had in fact survived other trip across the bay and it could be in fact living abroad. So I do a whole bunch of different things. In addition to doing composite, sketches and writing books and stuff, like that, but and because of my involvement, it is a niche industry. I just keep like I said, just keep collecting these stories that I'm just anxious and excited to share in the future with the readers and do you have a book upcoming that you can talk about or is it under wraps? For now I have a textbook coming

Although you know later this year, early next year for another company, but I do have another book that will be in the pipeline in the next year with wildblue press involving one of the cases in the book, but in an expanded format, rolling delving into the case really taking that chapter and expanding it into its own book, and it is really does breaking down. Looking all the evidence in every all the intricacies with case in such a manner, we haven't really put it all together. Yet the manuscripts completed. But it's just gonna, be a really exciting story, and I think it's one. People enjoy joy, so powerful be announcing something about assume. Well I'd like to thank you very much for coming under the show and it was my pleasure best of luck to you MIKE. Thank you dave for taking the time and, like I say I just go to my office page at a wobbly press and or go to my website at www, sketchup dot com and

of course, facebook twitter linkedin. I mean I'm on all the social media platforms and stuff just can't keep track what I'm doing and wait for the next book, the the the. The new exclusive series beneath tells the tail of a motley crew, scientists and scavengers who wanted to solve the mysteries of the titanic. They went for answers at the bottom of the ocean, but quickly discovered they were unprepared for the horror that they

earth over a century after it sinking lingering questions about unaccounted for passengers and smuggled treasure continued to cloud our understanding of the titanic beneath utilised, his captivating storytelling with chilling audio as attacking their sound, his eye to transport, you the depths of the ocean to join the team seeking answers, but in of treasure, they uncover an ancient hunger that should have been left untouched, watch inspires next. Is a bone chilling nightmare as each member The team tries to stop a runaway curse before it destroys them all binge listen to beneath exclusively by joining one reply: ass, an apple podcast or the one rehab