The Bain Family Murders. June 20, 1994. Dunedin, New Zealand. A 22 year-old man sets out on his newspaper route early in the morning. Sometime after returning home before 7am, he discovers some members of his immediate family have been murdered. The victims were identified as 59 year-old Robin (father), 50 year-old Margaret (mother), 19 year-old Arawa (daughter), 18 year-old Laniet (daughter), & 14 year-old Stephen (son). Initially, the scene suggested a murder/suicide. A rifle was found on the floor next to Robin's body. As the investigation continued, though, all signs began to point toward the only surviving member of this home. The 22 year-old son, David Cullen Bain, who also happened to have an alibi.
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separate now streaming exclusively on Apple tv plus tonight's case is the Jeremy Bamboo of New Zealand. It's the Stephen
every of New Zealand. And what are we talking about a knight errant once known as the
he Bain family murderers at the centre of this is
man by the name of David Bain, who at the time was twenty two years old, the murders took place on June 20th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety four in New Zealand
in for anyone. That's wondering New Zealand is low
what's smaller than the state of California. So this is a big deal there. This was huge news and still is big news to this day.
Right. Let's give aid summary of what happen that way as we go through the case
Yo Nigeria, where we're going with it on the more
king of June 20th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety four David Bain got up and got ready to go out on his paper route. Now
Twenty two and has a newspaper delivery route that it goes on, and he supposedly goes on this paper out and they many returns starts washing some clothes takes it
power, and then he discovers that some
Members of his family have been killed.
At the time he says that he knew
Of what a couple of them his parents any calls one one one which is the equivalent of nine one one, the emergency number Annie says they're all dead. Yes, in his call takes place, it's estimated about twenty five minutes after he had returned home from his
out yeah, so he returns home around six forty five fish.
and then the one one one call comes in at
Evan. Oh nine! That's about twenty five minutes, policing
emergency services show up they it's just after seven. Thirty yeah David is pretty much in the feudal position. Crying
and not really responsive to him ass, an emergency workers. It turns out his entire families been murdered and who are all
victims. While the victims are his immediate family, his father,
in vain, was fifty nine years old the rifle used to kill.
each and every family member was found next to his body, Margaret Bain, who was fifty years old Arava was nineteen. She was the eldest
after the next daughter was lung, yet she was eighteen and then David's. Younger brother Stephen was fourteen and Stephen that one was more than just shooting a look like. There was struggle and fight. There is a physical comfort
Asia. It wasn't just a shooting, whoever the murderer was was struggling with Stephen
initially, investigators are looking at the scene. They have the eldest child of the couple whose twenty two
and he supposes returned home from doing his job and the right
is laying their next to the father and burst, it looks like
it's a murder suicide. Now this twenty two rifle has a
I ll answer or suppressor on it kind of reason why somebody could go around the house and gun people down and not alert others as quickly.
right in its noted that around seven in the morning a neighbor was awoken by a barking dog from within the house there was a dog, the dog name
Casey, and it actually belong to one of the daughters when it
ass, the gaiters were at the house. It was strange because the dog wouldn't go near David. The dog would stay behind other people and watch him wearily, but that's just something that was noted. Don't have video footage of it. There is a lot of women,
testimony in this case that may or may not have any weight or any substance to form any credit.
for anyone, that's listening, I'm sure that you ve wash documentary before and
I would call it span or presentation, but if you
you see or hear something you'll take it in the way you take it in so fast
people, they would say. Oh their distress,
make David, look bad and someone else would say: oh, come on dogs sense, evil yeah. I don't put any weight on whether the dog was doing. This are not because my dogs, if there's a thunderstorm, they're gonna, stay away from me and everybody, because they're scared and they're gonna be under the bed, so this was there and
protection of a thunderstorm and it the dog could just be scared. People coming into the house dogs not familiar with bad, and we don't know. Perhaps
David was never close to that dog anyway, so we can't say: oh
They used a pale around all the time and he would take it for walks. We don't know so it may not be
or it may be important. We can't say yeah as they start going through the evidence
the twenty two rifle bolt. That has a silencer. They also note that on the computer there's a no
and this is actually typed into the computers was not like a note. That's ticket posted note or anything. It's not been stuck to the computer is actually on the
the computer word or no patter something's been opened, and this has been written and it says sorry you're, the only one who deserve to stay
so? The father Rawdon obviously went through and killed everybody when he knew David was out doing his paper out and-
He deserves to stay because he was the only person in the family that was doing something good.
working in as an upstanding citizen in his father loved him, but the rest of these kids know Dave is the only one that deserved to stay in the father. Did it that's what we're supposed to
believe in this case the scene looks fairly straightforward, but they find
a lot of other items. They find bloody footprints in the hallway. They find bloody clothing down in the launder. They fine blood smears on the soap box to be washing machine. They find fingerprints
in blood on the rifle. So we have a lot of evidence here lot of different things that can shed some light on what went down that morning, your star at the play footprints, while the footprints were
basically, Sock Brent, I mean they were Sock Brandt's yes, oh it wasn't like an outline of a flavors outline ever they were prince left behind by
socks that had stepped in blood. With that you dont have a shoeprints to say these were David shoes. These were Robin choose by the way. That's pretty much that
theories that are going here. Are it was either the Father Robin or it was David, the sun that committed these crimes. So we have a sock print and Robins foot size was two hundred seventy millimetres. An David's was three hundred millimetres, so about thirty millimetres difference and the bloody footprints were somewhere kind it and between NAD might what's two hundred and eighty two and ninety so bigger than robins but smaller than David's. So then there's the bloody close and the washer. One of these articles are clear:
there is a jersey or what we would call a sweater that belong to David and there was blood on the shoulder. Well, there's a question with who belong to
depending on when David was ass. He gave to different answers. He said that his father war it, but he also said that his sister war, it
game. Now this sweater their results,
who talk about whether it was man made or machine made and that will determine how well we go through a washing machine because it was said by people that new the family that they would hand wash jerseys they clean and without risking damage to the jury.
So there's blood on this jersey, so he can be assumed that the killer, the murderer probably was wearing this jersey
They also believe that, because there's a blood smear left
this jersey on, I believe, a doorway. That's a clue. They also found a bloody handprint on the washing machine and they found a blood smear on,
soapbox my end envy handprint is actually a palmprint and it was
benefits is being David's, so David has blood on him. The other
it is these clothes were bloody when they are put into the wash down
supposedly how his hand got blade again.
the soap box had blood on it, so I'm confused as it his father or sisters. Sweater wars at his word
Why would he he was doing the wash and
ways to explain this is that his parents work getting along.
As is gonna where we have to talk a little bit about the past, because when David was young not
after he was born David move
with his parents to Papua New Guinea and they lived there for fifteen years now they were supposed to go for a few years.
his father. Robin was doing missionary work,
While there are there. His mother,
he's getting into occultism
businesses are things like that and his father
was doing missionary work. You can see how this was a bit odd when they arrived back
in New Zealand. They were certain going different directions. The father was teaching and he
basically living at the school through the weak and then the weekends he would live in a caravan.
Outside of the home in the yard, so she's living in the front yard. In a little camper thing
It was the front, but I don't know their every living outside in a caravan David Byrne
the oldest child of this couple. They say he was becoming the mad house. He was having too
you. Take over responsibility is because his parents weren't spending.
I'm together. They were basically living apart. There are you could see what
You would be doing. The laundry stuff needs to be done. If you see photos of this crime scene. If you see photos of their house, you will see that they were a very
poor family, their home was in a dilapidated state on the outside. On the inside, it was kind of a mixed between a mess and hoarders house. It was not well kept just to give you a vision of what we're doing with your poor family at the house had been cited by
the city. They were trying to decide what to do, because it really have the money to upkeep the house that in early have the money to afford all these children. It's not a good situation, dazzling in the yard and, of course, David. Perhaps the problems with his parents were affecting him, because he
really have a job. I mean yes, he has a newspaper job, but he was unemployed for a time and he
didn't do well at university and gotten into opera which he seemed to enjoy, but things just weren't. Looking so good for him near twenty two years old living at home during a paper,
out sucks. So there are some issues in the family and, like you said, the state of their living in
man, not so good,
I can imagine and make it more difficult to try and investigate it because you go through and if you look
the images tat are available. Look at Stevens Room. I guess
I want to analyze some of this evidence, but we analyze it because the law enforcement they focus on David. They no longer think this is a murder suicide. They think it's a murder in its because of some of these items they ve seen such as David appears to be the one that has the blood on em, not his father Robin, and they charge him with this crime
the trial they analyze? All this evidence, and in some of these pictures I saw eyeglasses that
we're missing a lens, so the eye glasses were in one room, but the lens was in the other room. So, yes, the glasses were found in
this room, where he was when it s scares arrived and then the lands which ITALY was the left lens
was found on the floor of Stevens room. They tracked down the story with these eyeglasses.
and the story is, as these are eyeglasses, that David would wear when his primary eye glasses were being repaired because you sit on em, you lose them you whatever, so these were his back up
Now, when I looked at the photos, I have to say that I had to look for the lens. I had to look for this, the glasses because it was such a mess. It was such a mess to the point where I
wondering to myself. Was anyone wearing these eyeglasses or were they broke in just left in this state? For weeks I couldn't tell, but the prosecutions theory is David was wearing these and during the physical
Vacation was Stephen. They were broken. The defences theory is Robin
was wearing them for some weird reason. This curious beak.
Is, as we all know, eyeglasses they're there made for a certain person, proscription eyeglasses. I could take my wife's eyeglasses and put them
and I would essentially be blind and our probably get a headache. So I can't just put on her eye glasses. What would be the purpose? It has really make sense either a he was wearing them and they were broken or be
they were broken prior and just lying around, but David never really makes statements to that that they were broken prior and laying round. So I cannot
go with a on that one. Is it doesn't look good forum on the eye glasses and tied into that
he had some marks on his face, which they say book
could have been made if someone struck those glasses off of his face? I'm sure he received those marks on his face from his paper out there. With me, no branches and stuff might hit.
there's no real explanation for his injuries as they would be called. Ok now, that's
thing else. When you look at his father Robin and then you look at David
injuries are a completely different story, so Robin
Only injury is, he was shot in the head. That's all they could find with him
When it comes to David, he had bruising and he had scratch marks. How would he have
an injured, and he doesn't have an explanation for where these injuries came from
you're taken to a police.
Station and they are concerned about a suicide risk. They will have you change out of your clothes and to their like paper, then close its pants and a top, and you can't twisted together and hang yourself with
or anything it's just they would tear apart. I think they caught a suicide. Gown, ok, suicide down. Thou is the word, so he was,
to strip and then when he had taken off his top
he said that there were scratch Mars and they were bruise is mostly
his right shoulder the mob,
stood out as they appeared to be left behind by fingernails somebody grabbing or digging in nor trying to fend off my and they asked him how he got them, but he wouldn't respond to them. So he did not answer the question. Everyone fights with their their siblings overtime right, that's reasonable
got into a fight with one of his siblings earlier that week TAT he had some other injuries, but suffice it to say he looks like he was involved in something
as Robin. His father was untouched
were shot in the head and something about that. Head injury, he's lying on the floor and his head is leaning back
and you see the blood trails down his forehead and going down his head and there's multiple blood trails, meaning his head looks as if it was moved so
to think he shot himself in the head? He fell down and then his head, under its own weight, shifted and then the blood went that way as opposed to how it was flowing the first way, or did somebody move him after he was murdered? Why did it had move after death? Can we talk about the bloody Sox next? Two hundred and seventy is Robin and three hundred is David, so there's thirty mm difference
cabins on the short side David's? On the long side, the bloody footprints left in the hallway were somewhere in between, so the defense took people wearing socks, get them in pig's blood and then made them step on carpet. They dip them in pig's blood like in saturated them with blood and then had them press down completely. So if you imagine, the bloody footprint
doubt to be much larger than the actual foot, so the defense says Well Robbins, but was two hundred and seventy, and these bloody footprints were around to eight thousand two hundred and ninety ish. So therefore, it was Robin's footprint that left this and not David's David's foot
would be too large. Now you know when you, if you ve ever, had your fingerprints taken by the police,
they roll your entire finger out and get the entire print, but if you were to just grab a glass or something, what kind of fingerprint d leave its much smaller and when you stepped down on carpet, everyone has a different step. I used to work
Come my toes as a kid. So I did not walk distributing all my weight across my entire foot trying to make the biggest footprint I could
when you're walking around. Naturally, you have a completely different step in your step is going to be smaller than your footprint. So is this robin, or is this David
well, who was wearing bloody socks and who was an error.
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now will be determined based on your credit income and certain other information provided in your loan application was easy because robins socks,
no blot on them and he was wearing shoes. When he was found with a bullet wound in his head. He was wearing socks and shoes with no blood on them. You would think by wearing shoes that would prevent blood from getting to the souls of year your feet or to the bottoms of yourself
all right, so I dont know how this bloody sock,
thing shows it was Robin, but that's what the defence said. You pointed out that when you walk you don't always step with your foot.
What it's easier to leave behind less of your foot then more right. How would you leave more of your foot if a print is larger, too large to be some ones,
and you say, was too small to be this other persons they have.
Taking into account that when you walk you don't always step on your foot? In other words, the tests they did was complete bs.
didn't really show anything to me. It's inconclusive what they did, because they did not re, create a natural step. So the test was both
So we said that there were closed in the wash their bloody here's, something that amazed me now
to go back here for a moment just because this was a case that I didn't know about prior. I know a lot about true crime cases of God, hundreds
the thousands of my head. This is not what I had in my head. That's New Zealand domain. We just didn't pay that much attention to what went on order there. I'm sorry people, but we had
Multiple people rotting in overtime, and they kept saying you gotta. Look at this case.
And so I was pretty well surprised when I found out that when they analyzed the closed that David was wearing that they found droplet
the blood. Any reveled identify the source of those droplets Stephen his brother. Now Robin didn't have any ones blood on him at all, and if we go back to David statement it was he entered the house, he went wash clothes and
he did not know or did not see his other siblings. He only knew about his parents being murdered. So how did he gets
evens blood on his clothes
it isn't Robin the alleged Merle
here have Stevens blood all over him
even the strap. That was on the twenty rifle was soaked in blood.
They found some fingerprints on that rifle and they said that the fingerprints appeared to be in
blood that was splattered on the rifle and those fingerprints belong to David, not Robin his finger. Prints could have been on it because it belonged to him, but how fingerprints show up in blood.
on a rifle. You would have to assume that the rifle
used in the murder, and then David touched the right
He never says he handled the rifle butt as fingerprints are on. It are robins fingerprints on it there not what
Robins fingerprints are not on the rival at all. Now this is curious because
robins, not wearing gloves. He has gloves, but he's not wearing them. David has gloves, but those gloves were soaked.
Blood one of them. I believe, if that both were found under Stevens Bed- and you would think
Robin shot himself with his rifle, which have
silence or on it
that he would have had to have left some kind of a fingerprint on the rifle. Somehow the prosecution says, the rifle was too big
in this rifle is fairly long and with these suppressor on it it's a very awkward way. You would have to shoot yourself in the head with this rifle, but the defence did a demonstration of how you can
it by putting the rifle but on the ground or on a chair and then you can hold the barrel. While you pulled the trigger, with your other hand, against your head, it looks very unnatural. It doesn't look like a way somebody would actually do. It would be much easier to put it under your chin or other ways, but it is possible with this rifle. If you handled the
for the Robins fingerprints are not. There is also a ten round magazine there, too magazines them with his rifle
then raw magazine was it was standing up which doesn't seem possible
if he were holding it there shot himself. Why don't know why he would be holding it? Why shot himself, but if it were to fall,
and land that way. That would be unworthy
on that it looks like you was placed. There is what you're saying
it would be manipulation of the scene. You ever think there, but I don't. I don't know I don't do that. There is imprints on Robins hand,
that one could assume were from the magazine. The magazine have like little dimples or the shape of it, and it appears that his hand could have been gripping or shoving that magazine into the weapon says: there's markings on his hand, but I can't say that the markings are inexact match. The defences do look, there's markings on his hand and appears does marking
only come from the magazine, so therefore Robin handled the gun or the magazine money would have had to have handled it. That day, I would assume tat. There are a lot
comparison images that you can see on line of this and they look like an exact match for when you take your thumb and forefinger, and you push that magazine in room. But again it's odd that
they can't fire prints on the rifle is not as though the rifles completely clean off Amanda. We already said there are bloody fingerprints from David on there.
And there are no prince at all from Robin there's another curious.
thing about this case, which is when they examined Robin. They discovered that he had a full bladder which
You know how it is when you have a full bladder, you tend to want to urinate boats
This was early morning. Usually you get up and you get dressed or you go to the bathroom first thing in the morning and it appears that he hadn't gone to the bathroom
no, but they assume that he went and got the newspaper before he went to go into the house and
from what we understand? Robbins,
team was too
he had up and then
Seven o clock? He would go from the caravan to the house. You pick up the paper,
and then you go in the house and pray and do his morning routine right right,
So even though he didn't he didn't sleep in a house, he did still sort of live. There ended the din was considered somewhat his area where the computer was, but the computer was considered David's. Something to that effect.
kind of interesting that they have to distinguish what areas at the house belong to, who kind of goes to show again how this family was getting along when this side of the house is mine and that set out as yours David said, he controlled the computer and he would allow the other siblings to use it in a short window in the morning
Hector, email or do whatever. So in that they are a real question, because you have this note on the computer. Sorry.
sorry, you're, the only one who deserve to stay, but some people pointed out that Robins background his educational background as well as is teaching,
Would suggest that he wouldn't leave a note like that when you think about it, you think about what this no is supposed to suggest is supposed to suggest
The father is stating to his son that he's
when you deserves the live, basically there's not relating to suggest that
He was going to spare any one if he was the killer, that it was going to be David. They didn't get along. It just doesn't make any sense
that there were there is actual witness testimony that says. David did not like his father and they did not get along, and David was closer
to his mother and David was becoming the manor house.
Steve, on the other hand, got along with his father. Why would he
do a big struggle and murdering his youngest son, but a counterpoint. They say
David got along with his oldest sister, and they were very close. So why would David kill his sister, but going back the note
when you say you are the only one who deserved to stay it doesnt quite fit.
Could have types you are the only one who deserves to stay not deserved. There's I'm saying yeah, it's a past tense, present tense kind of wisdom.
yeah and that, just as it makes sense for someone who supposedly can teach English now
If you are someone who fails at university or I'm sure, just the average person walking around probably would have difficulty at times, if they're not paying attention to typing something really fast. That's the kind of note you might leave, but not someone who would teach English. Yes,
are. We concerned English major and why not just right, then we have to remember this is
one thousand nine hundred and ninety four you go to boot up the computer you're going to sit there and wait for it to boot. Up
windows, three one or whatever was back, then you- I didn't actually look up to see what kind of computer was, but you have to wait for it to boot up and then you have to type to know and then supposedly, if you believe Robin to this, then he would suicide. After that, that's a nice headway into what is David's alibi here. They had, as he prove his case, that he was not there. There is a witness, a lady that listen, the neighbourhood is driving along. She sees David on his paper out,
at six hundred and fifty and that's according to her car clock now it is determined that she set her clock five minutes fast, so she could get to work on time. So technically she sees David at six hundred and forty five, a dot m, not six hundred and fifty. So you understand the clocks five minutes past. They determine that the computer was turned on or boot it up at six hundred and forty two, a dot m. So that's three minutes before David was home to David, could not have committed these crimes because the computer was turned on in this note was left on it while he was out at witness places him outside the home three minutes, ish time for David, not to be there correct. I thought they had originally said that the computer was turned on at six hundred and forty nine
Then they determine that aid had been turned on earlier. What they do is they looked at the present time emanated since her back calculation or something but the time it was up or something go, I'm giving you didn't offences out. I'm giving the defence saying this is his alibi.
The computer is turned on earlier before he was home, but when the prosecution analyzes that computer they say, no the times
Ah and they try to synchronize in the prosecution of course, is like no actually kind of shows that David might have been home in the defence says. No, it absolutely shows that David was not home, but the defence says thee.
Analysis guided did the timing and the sink renovation
got it all wrong and that it's all for nothing will if their claiming that everything this analysis was wrong
Then they can't say that the numbers match up and David's favour. All you can say as its inconclusive. Just like the sock print, you can't have it both ways. You can't say this was a bad test and it's only in our favour. It just doesn't work that way so they're trying to argue that tests are bad or good, but their cherry picking and they're not exactly there, not exactly hoping there.
he's right in a case like this, when you have these disagreements over when the computer was turned on and when he
seen in people's clocks are quite right, you can just talk some of this stuff out.
We could talk for a while about how likely is it that, if Robin committed these murders that he would use a computer to type up a suicide note plus look at that real quick
Robin had no blood on him from anyone else and he was wearing pretty much clean clothes and shoes and socks. So how does he
come the murderer. The defences theory is he committed these murders, stripped all his clothes off
Took a shower then got dressed turned on the computer type, that the suicide message and then suicide. Pretty much that's
theory right cause. That's the only way it works, but again
remind you that it was David who put the clothes in washer. So if he had shipped out of all our clothes, meaning Robin the Father, he stepped out of the clothes, then he would have just put them where they would be gathered up and then put into the
sure he didn't actually wash them. So to me, that's a risk tat because,
The evidence is sitting around. Why would he do that?
but he just set them aside to be wash later. It doesn't make any sense. The defence says that he wanted
new changes clause so that we met his maker. He would be dress nicer. I cannot take this seriously. Sorry, because if you look at the club.
He was wearing. I dont see the difference between the close he put on if he did put those on after getting changed as the defence as he did
and the ones that he was wearing before, supposedly as they say that were bloody,
because on one hand you have closed,
actually nicer their bloody, and then you have these tattered ratty, looking clothes that he was wearing. I swear just looked them up. These are terrible
if you think, you're going to dress nice to meet your maker,
and this is never mind- the fact that if he did do this crime that he just murdered five people
he's going to meet his maker, and as long as these dressed okays gonna be ok
It is not even dressed. Ok, that's the problem here. I don't
understand the theory at all or assumption here. So you have David that has blood on him. Leave drops of blood bloody behalf
prince and smears all in the laundry area that he claims. He didn't know he had tracked there therein didn't know that his hands were all bloody and Robin has no blood arm
what's point out a couple things that maybe we're wrong with this investigation. Cousin do investigations perfect right, I mean we want them all to be packaged up all nice and neat and say here's what happened and we can backwards engine
all the events that happened this day. But if that were the case, we wouldn't have a podcast were asking them to be perfect.
Rita every time, and
coming onto scenes that are horrific that are disturbing and they're supposed to do everything by the book. As they say. I don't know how many times have they come across a few like this, that's my question: how many times have they enter to home?
were they had five people shot to death and then in a in a place like this? That's me I'll call filthy,
this is New Zealand worth this doesn't happen there. Crime rate is pretty low, it's really nice place to live compared,
the United States of America, where we live. Where this may I hate to say about this- is more common, something that
I felt was a little interesting about the investigation. Is they ran the gunpowder test on David's hand? It did not test positive for gunpowder residue, but he admitted that he'd washed up. So
How can a test for that you set it wont. Let me put it this way now. I think when it comes comes, the shower I say took shower if your prince or on the rifle and your father's prince or not.
neither of your hands show any gun residue. The gunpowder residue
I'm just going to say it. You cleaned up now
What is he doing in that twenty five minutes cities at home before he calls one one way he washes laundry a claim.
Well, I just got done doing my paper out when I was eleven. I started doing a paper out. I deliver the Detroit NEWS and your hands would absolutely get dirty the front of my t shirt. If I had a white teacher
which that's bound to happen. You don't always think about it. It will get dirty from the newspaper ink the print right. It just rubs you carrying around a big stack of papers. I would deliver to these apartments and I would have to carry big stacks from
car and I'll be dropped off, I'd have to carry them inside and leave them in lobby and start distributing the newspapers. I have two pretty quick, because someone will take one yet they're just sitting there. You don't have a God
no insane. Regarding your newspaper, you just have to kind of move and get all the papers delivered quickly. So David's got this ink on him and he wants to clean up right, but he's not just washing,
His clothes he's taking clothes that are just waiting to be washed, which,
happened to be bloody, while, if you
leaving blood on the wash her and on the soap box and and other items in the washroom. There
you claim- you didn't know that you are leaving this blot everywhere now I guess
it's early in the morning. Sometimes I get up before my wife. I don't
on any of the lights. So I'm going through the house quietly
without turning on the light, so I dont interrupt others some, maybe he didn't see the
the defence of his family being wiped out. Maybe he didn't see the blood because he didn't turn on any lights. But if you look at the
missions of the house. You look at the conditions that this man is living in you looking at just a filled, and this guy has to do laundry right then, and there, when he returns home, that's the time to do laundry, and he admits to that. I'm sorry, but when somebody's dead in your household in the first thing you're doing is cleaning up that looks real,
really bad, even if it was an intentional. It just looks bad, there's no other way to say it were supposed to point out problems in the investigation, so they didn't test Robins hands
for the gun residue. They didn't tests it in
timely manner and they didn't preserve his hands before testing bagging them right
you're supposed to back them, so that whatever is on the hand, stays either on the hand or within the bag yeah they didn't do that will and technically they should a back all the hands of EV
one in the family, if we really want them to exclude any body, they have to do it for everyone in the household. Don't we want that to happen? We can pick them
station light. Really, if we're going to say anything in David, this defence we'd have to just bless. You give people less is going to be easy,
So you can say that the Bloody Jersey, a k, the sweater,
was either worn by Eiroa or Robin so
that's something that may be Robin was wearing when the merger committed right. He does have again will say it on that
forefinger and thumb he has marks. They look like two lines: yes, certain distance from each other on each finger that look like they pushed a magazine into a rival. There's. No doubt I looked at all the pictures. Many times I kept looking over. I thought. Yes, that's very curious and its unexplained. How could we explain this? We can sit here and talk about and come up with all kinds of theories, but that's a sum. It's all aspects.
relations that we just don't have enough information. On top of that they say he could have worn the clothes and change them and gotten cleaned up and then shot himself, and then he would,
have any blood on himself aside from his own, which is what they found on either
The things well, how reliable, as the sock evidence, we talked bows from
easier to leave less of your own foot, then more, I would stand.
that, but it still question. You know it doesn't quite fit either one here so
you're going to have some people say: aw, that's not enough! You can't! You can't use that you're fine! You can throw that out. Oh yeah, it's it's like any case, if it all hinged on the sock evidence. If you only piece of evidence, we had was the marks on his fingers. Great hey,
all. We have to go on. Let's go with that, but that's not all we have to go and we have a lot to go on and David left the house. He went and did his paper out
We don't have a specific time and when he got home we have witnesses. We have
or, but we don't have anything salad. You don't have a clock next to the front.
Door and have him entering the house and of the Euro area. It just don't worry, I'm eating defensive. You never do, though, will
we can do is say there are witnesses who say they saw him at certain times and you can t use as a guide. We also
he's as a guide when Robin normally comes into the house now
on the other hand, maybe
been changes routine. If this
the day rate decided to all the people on his family, except for David, then perhaps he changed his routinely came in at a different time. It would have to be different to support David's defence and we have to say David's defence, because David really doesn't say much. So when we talk about his defence and things that are helpful in his case, then we
pretty much have to go by his lawyers. They really just doesn't say anything I mean we ve talked about earlier when he was questioned about those scratches and
had nothing to say. In fact, there is a witness
friend of his who said she
we're shown those scratches.
When she asked David about it. He didn't say where they came from. He didn't explain the scratches
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which why for ninety dollars off so if you ve actually been listening for the last, what thirty forty five
All the evidence really points David and not rob so he is found guilty and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole until he's serve sixteen years. Well, that is the possibility of parole, but yes, after sixteen after sixteen years, so he goes for his fur
feel wins the appeal and is granted a retrial in two thousand and nine. Now, when you hear how that case went down, you find out that the new evidence, which was pretty much the old evidence that was just rehashed about robins intentions on his fingers and other things, are what gave the jury that doubt that they needed, but at day
its release party, some of these jurors attended it. Apparently they knew who dared was in that's kind of what jury select
as far as do you know anything about this case, no, ok, then you can be in an impartial you're. One of these people are going to is released party, apparently there their fans of ham and they believe in his innocence. That's kind of shady to me also. Some of them gave statements
TAT. They were really paying attention during the trial. They weren't actually there to analyze the evidence, and it appears that the trial went much more and David's favour. As far as what evidence was considered admissible in which evidence was not he gets released, and at that point
the prosecution can't retry him now he's out. I'm sure there are things that could be considered. But to me it very much looks like this. Is it then they ve? Let it go to be fair. It said that the defence team wasn't very
If it is in the retrial, you want a retrial. You want a second chance. You always want to second chance, but leading up to that second trial. It was obvious they didn't have a lot of confidence in it going his way. Two thousand seven is when the conviction was basically
RO now. So at this point, that's when the retrial decided that the retreat
doesn't happen, as you said, until two thousand nine, they kept asking for stays and I think what it means is. This is the kind of case where you really want to make sure you you go in with a good.
strategy, obviously the first trial, didn't go there way that when you keep asking for stays building your case
rights. Is it's interesting if you win an appeal- and I know of
every time it seems like. If you win appeal, you can,
will the show something that throw everything into doubt, and you would think that if it's, that good, maybe have something
with even during the trial they kept applying to get stays were asking for a mistrial. You would think once it got going, you eulogist do your best bet. They appeared to be nervous and doing their best to try and get
things just stretched out as long as they could. So what I've read is he wins and he's let free
New Zealand is divided on how they feel about this. I found
a lot of websites that all say he's innocent and a lot of websites that are not so positive for David and they say pole, say it's bout, fifty fifty and that's pretty interesting. That now
and half believe differently here in a lot of evidence or a lot of other things came out after this, such as, though the one when one call during the call people say it sounds like he says something to the effective. I shot that prick there's a lot
two different ways that they say, but when you listen to the audio, you can't make anything out of it. I mean it
I will be, you know like Judas priests played backwards here. It just doesn't make any sense. They bring up things in his favour, like what we ve mentioned. There is a whole argument going on now I dont get it don't get where people
find in his favour cause. I don't see the horrible errors
The investigation it looked like a pretty straightforward investigation to me wasn't perfect, but they say they burn the house down, because David said it was
Kay and they go. Why would you burn the property down because you could re investigate and look from more evidence and I'm thinking they already guy
Third, the evidence they don't really need the money
seen any longer? It's not necessary right. One of the things they point out is that they could have cut out carpet that had bloody sock print on it and save that is
evidence so that it can be analyzed again later David.
Another expert they get better analyze it who knows find if there is mixed.
in and there were no, I think it's may space before the measurements. Dhaka you'd have tangible evidence that they could test, they could measure it, they could analyze it. This is one example.
But it did appear as though David was all too happy to get something out of that property.
and your way you can sell that property is to get rid of the crap on it, which is the house. The house was in poor condition that that's being nice. This is getting into motive, though you know
the families dead. You got one survivor that property could be sold off. The only thing you re get out of it. You can sell the property, the land its eyes valuable, but if you have a really crappy, dilapidated building or house on it that spoiling apart with issues was condemned,
pretty much the on going to build, saw that. Why would somebody wipe out their family because he was looking to inherit the fortunes of the family, which the fortune is the property value? That's it that's! It if this
family had might see. This family had saved some money. They were planning to supposedly build a new house. Things were going to change because it they built a new House Robin wasn't going to continue living in the caravan he was going to have a room. They would see in the current state. He couldn't have his own room in the house. There
to rebuild now he can have his own separate room, so the family sort of makes do the parents are together by it
Now they don't have to worry about sleeping arrangements taken care of. Do you think that was that would be a decent motive for David? I think there's always something more.
Now you can point to financial motives. You can point to the unrest in the family, but for someone to wipe out a whole family like that, I think there's something more going on. I don't think David sitting there thinking. Oh I'm going to cash in on this property. So I'm going to kill everybody. He snapped it's bad situation to living in a in poverty he's he doesn't like Robin if
move back and do it you know if they have to go through building a new house. Whatever I mean the guy should have been moved out by now you shouldn't have had to deal with any of these issues should have been living on his own, but he's having to because nobody else in the family.
able to Robin ceiling when you can have a job, a real job, so I don't think he's there to be the hero. No, I think he's there because he has no choice. You can't make a living off of a paper out, not the one he has anyway. That's not going to work.
I really do think that this isn't a snap. Now you might say a snap in, and you know he just got sick and tired yeah. That's that's what this seems planned. I think the best way to finish with this is the kind of go
were the alleged scenarios by the prosecution and that events in that way, it can't lays out how it could have played out, depending on who you see as guilty. Look look if you, if you ask people, if you say what do you think happened if Robin was killer? What do you think happened if day was the killer? You could get different answers there, arson.
Things about this case that you could see, making different calls on different scenarios, but will does give you some ideas here, Robin wakes up changes on the close he's sleeping in and dresses, and a Green Jersey,
that's usually worn by era with his daughter and then he goes out to the mailbox and he gets the newspaper and then when he gets the house, he goes to David's room to get the rifle. Now. The rifle has a trigger lock on it from what I
Paul. There were two keys to this thing. One was actually in an overcoat that had been laughed in. I think the caravan Robin wouldn't have known about that, but there is
He that's in a jar of knickknacks endeavours room he would have had to leave.
Gone through that jar probably taken stuff out of it, but here
returned everything back the jar, because the jar still had the knickknacks in it. It just didn't have the keen like that
he was used to unlock the trigger guard, but David himself says that
No one else knew where this key was only. He knew where it was and then get some bullet
giving idea of how he bullets are available. This kind of surprise me, David had more than one thousand bullets. It's a twenty two and at the time there wasn't a twenty two shortage, so you're in a mess
anyway, this key is, in his part, were jar. What have you and he unlocks the trigger lock, and then he puts on David's dry.
Gloves. Now these are dress gloves. I believe that he would use when he was in the classical me
program, correct, that's what I
assume by these dressy white, gloves, yeah, there's no other reason for him to have them
he's using David's gloves if you believe that he puts my ears
zone gloves at her in his caravan, but he doesn't use those which is interesting,
because he's going to write a note later, keep that in mind so
He has a couple, a magazines, any loads, one with five bullets and another one with ten, and then he goes on his hunt and he starts with Margaret his wife and then he shoots his second
her and she shot three times. There is also a struggle with Stephen Hughes. Fourteen at one point, a bullet will go through Stevens Hand and go across his head, so its kind.
Miss it appears as though there was an attempted strangulation with the teacher of Stephen. He was later finished off with a bullet
and then Erewhile was last to be shot according to this scenario,
was probably in kneeling position. When he entered her room, possibly praying praying
Begging, who knows most people think will say, praying because they
the desert. I imagined she would be doing its. Sadly, it's a better image because begging is this really sad, so
now? Supposedly he goes back to the caravan, and this is after he had stripped off the clothes and put them near the washer.
And he puts on these clothes, which are like I said, do you can look them up their terrible looking
They're, not anything if you were going to dress up to meet your maker as they say natural you put
zalm by this is the scenario they are laying out there. He dressed into these clean cortical, clean clothes, Aaron you're, not the fashion police,
and decides to shoot himself in the house. So he goes back to the house.
The, but he knows that his son we back soon, so I'm sure he's in a hurry
one scenario that the defence would were you to believe.
But there is another scenario which is David, who has a paper out could have since he knows where the trigger lock, he is, could have unlocked
the Czech Republic and went around since the
if one has a silence, are we already established before? In other cases it? Twenty two is not that loud? No, you put us
Eleazer on it. He can go.
Out and murder everybody in that house- and then
on his paper out, we talked about how its understood it
Robin when he would come into the house until about seven a dot m. So all David has to do is be in the house before his father gets there, that's it and then what can you do?
lay in wait for him from the angle of where the bullet entered and exited his father's head. It makes more sense if he standing there and David's holding the rifle at him. It's just a more natural progression opposition then the weird position that he would have had to help held it. He would have had to live
turned his head and put into this like it just doesn't make any sense it almost. In fact, it might have just been an ambush situation where Robin walked in India
standing off to the side just walked up and pow, that's actually more what it looks like to me and then remember the bloodstreams on Robins head. Maybe data kicked him in the head. Maybe David tried to readjust his body or reposition it somehow, because it was moved after the fact or the police are distorting incompetent move
his head, I know he's talking to pass police, make mistakes and you have to hold them accountable right. This is really stretching it at this point because you have to say that Davis able to walk,
laundry and not realise there is any blood interests and clothing had been soaked in blood. The gloves heading
soaked in blood. Whoever was doing the wash was Lee
blood everywhere left a big bloody palmprint on the washer
He doesn't see that you wouldn't think that would stand out to you at any point in time. I wish they
an explanation. I even if they would have said he was in shock after seeing his whole entire family wiped out, and then he stumbled down to the washroom do laundry,
like a shock, but that they don't even bring that up as a defence, his glasses. He has marks on his face.
the glasses are broken. Those are those were his spares, his backups her
if you want to say over that land could have been in that room for a long time. No, those were his backups. He needs glasses to see properly. They've believed that because he didn't have his glasses, that when he went to shoot,
If you believe it, he did it. When you went to go shoot Erle that he couldn't quite see her
was a shot that was missed in this goes back to something we didn't mention is
in one of his statements. He says he hears his sister, making her gurgling salon. Yet yet he says this, but she has a execution womb like she was shot multiple times, but then there's that final shot, that's kind of the kill shot. She wouldn't have probably live through that one, but he says he heard her gurgling
if you think he did it, then yeah he heard her gurgling and then he gave her one more or you have to believe. That's. You somehow lived through this and was still alive, but then a statement changed about whether he heard it or not. So it's all sort of inconclusive, but that was one of his statements was he heard her gurgling and if you look at her wounds that should have been happening. They as the the pathologists knees head he's he's never heard of that happening, someone gurgling after they were murdered. If they survived, you know if they lived for any amount of time
after a headshot, that amount of time is very small window, so David would have had to literally walked in right. After was all said and done right after was over to have heard this. If she in fact could have lived for any amount of time after a headshot, he served thirteen
his sixteen years now, not that he would have been purled on the sixteenth year, but he suing for wrongful imprisonment, like a million dollars in the court systems are saying that you have
prove that something was done wrong it s
An interesting point is the law can actually charge, indict and convict you and since you, without ever doing anything wrong
for the most part, to really hard argument to say that they dropped the ball here or they dropped the ball there. Even if you're innocent,
you can be charged and put in jail or prison in they did. Everything by the book is just the way. It is
so I don't think he's gonna wait and civil ass well, there's been.
Information on this, and it appears as though he's not getting compensated because they just don't believe, despite the not guilty verdict that there's enough evidence to show that he was,
definitely not guilty wow. There is a question about his innocence. So remember, there's
plenty of evidence against him here. There's the the bloody fingerprints theirs.
His items being used its his rifle, what had a trigger lock on it? He had the key dad's
Z. Writing a note saying you're going when it deserves to live by then framing
somehow by using his items, making it look like he did it by killing himself in such an odd way.
Are leaving his glasses the way they were. How does the blood from Stephen get on him? You can't
erase that stuff. It doesn't matter whether he won in court. Think about it yet lucky. I don't really understand how they could have found him not guilty. But then again, I've looked at other cases that look pretty cut and dry, and you still have defenders out there saying, oh, that person didn't do it in this case, I I guess we can at least be satisfied that he served thirteen years, it's preponderance of evidence
talk about that before. In this case, it truly is there. I know there will be people out there. They hurrah upset with us because we're so,
pouring the railroading of David Bay by
you're not listening anymore. They turned off the epithet wealth. These are the elements that we felt were the most important in. It all falls on the evidence. I do not care about whose supporting who who's got, whose back what political policies in place. It is none of that stuff matter
It's the evidence that matters the real take away here is this was a miserable house. I think- and you had this unrest, because David and his mother were on one side and he was helping to run the house.
Robin outside looking in, and then I think I think we can say this
think when you look at it and they are trying to save money, to rebuild a house there and to get a room for Robin. I think you have to say that there was hope that things could turn around. One person decided they were done with this, and this was the best way to handle it because he had no way of making a living on his own
Didn't have the education, he didn't have a way to make money. He didn't have a way out. He had no way out except to take everyone out and then scrape up whatever is left, which is the property value. One thing I kind of disagree with on both prosecution and defense. Defense says Robin wrote. The the suicide note prosecution says David wrote it to frame his father. I think David wrote it to himself. He's telling himself you,
this you deserve to live? They didn't he's reassuring himself, never miss an episode of generation. Why subscribed to us on Apple podcast, Spotify, Cast box or reverie listening right now. Also,
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Transcript generated on 2022-02-21.