This episode is brought to you by peacock presenting the original limited series. A friend of the family. On this story of the Jan proper kidnappings from nickel. oscar executive producer of the act and candy and direct producer eliza happen comes out and compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands. Produce which a robot herself, this theory stars anna pack when jake lacy common hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only on peacock taxes, yes and Y see is the next instalment of the award winning anthology series. American horror story, crate by ryan murphy and brad fell chuck with to all episodes airing each week, it promises to be a season like no other it s an Y, see stars returning favorites like Zachary window and Billy lord along fresh faces, including Russell Toby and Charlie carver. Some Evil is coming at back

the age, ass and Y, see premiers october nineteenth on ethics stream on hulu Are you doing tonight? It doing pretty good awesome the experts, holding down the fort. While I was gone and thank you for calling for a first step in and for me I was away visited Some of our fans down in texas at the sword scale meet up the way The right now is who was? I didn't know what to expect when I walked in there. I didn't know if I was this kind of either the war. flower waiting to meet my core if anyone He's gonna know who I was or whatever, and

As soon as I walked in, I forgot. But some lady screamed just dead set up. I knew that I was gonna be good after that, and it was awesome meeting people in person, and if everyone enjoyed the the meet and greet- and it was awesome hanging out with MIKE you know for that weekend too, so it might have been erica, it's possible. I think she mentioned that she saw you from afar before she even saw the shirt so might have been her. Somebody else came up and they're like where'd, you get that shirt cause. I was being cheesy and I wore that our generation Y shirt and not just the You have an exclusive extra limited edition. Gray one, and I was don't even say where I got the shirt from. I just said: I'm justin in you know my Links were all bought for me all during the night.

Gore is really awesome and I think we got a couple of new listeners from from the meet and greet also, and it was pretty cool meeting mike. I bet oh sword and scale MIKE's awesome. He is a gentleman. He is very polite and cool, so I'm not so much, but whatever well I've heard otherwise. So one thing is clear: up: we ve had a number of messages both by e mail through twitter through different social media, People are asking about older episodes, one I should prefaces by saying you know just side. Look back at our episodes in their their ancient episode, zuma, slake, going back through history to some old and day when he and I first discover that we could require voices. Are some be that as it may, if you had your website are on the right.

inside, if he's got onto the episodes, if you're on your mobile phone you'll see a search box, you can actually type in a search term and find old episodes that way there also categories you can click on. I have em sorted by if it's a mystery. If it's a conspiracy or what have you so and you can, just do a google search, the generation? Why and whatever the topic isn't that right out about find it too, but there? They don't show up on itunes, were stature, past episode, thirty or somethin. Well, and here's. The other thing is every podcast has a feed, will feed cannot exceed half a mega by or it may encounter issues, so I'm just playing safe here and making sure that it and go past that half megabyte mark, even if I enable them all and were under way,

adding a new episode every week, so eventually older episodes will just sort of disappear from the feed anyway, so they'll always be available, though we always have them hosted and they're ready to go. So if you can't use google to find something- and you know we've done it- you know feel free to reach out. I can get you a direct link. So my welcome back here is a woman bound. her hands behind her back and her seat hanging from a balcony. What are we talking about tonight? Well, tonight's case involves thee, spreckels mansion and the deaths of six year old, max shack, nigh and thirty. Two year old, rebecca the. How how those goes down is mac It's alleged that he fell over a balcony or a railing on the top of the stairs and

came crashing down onto the floor and he was about to two floors up and he's in critical condition. Rebecca two days later is found hanging from a balcony. And max passes away shortly after she's found dead, but he he's actually its wits, tat day. They determine it. It's a suicide. Dutch sheep committed suicide because you, distraught over the the child. following or the railing and in dying. and there are some details about that- but Her hands and feet were bound in her hands were bound behind her back? She had a gag in her mouth. She was completely naked and her feet were bound. while I was reading the autopsy report on this-

and as soon as I saw the photos and all that, my my initial instinct was this: isn't it This is a murder by it As we know, weird things in life happen, so we're gonna go, the details on this in and try to figure out if the authorities to get at it correctly. If the sun's death was a problem, we start with that rebecca is dating a man name, Jonah Jonah happens to be a ceo of a large pharmaceutical company. Jonas salary for the year of twenty ten is Point four million dollars for that year and he lay It's on coronado island, which is right. outside of the san diego people that live in san diego can see the island out there, and it too

expensive island thy actually was just out there on a business trip staying at the hotel, dal witches. Italy, haunted But I didn't even know about this case. When I was staying out there, which is kind of success. I might have driven driven around the island and checked out the mansion that they that she's dating Jonah. His son max is there and she has little sister name Zena, that's their max. he's got a razor scooter. I guess that's what they're called razors scooter the metal sky yeah nobody's around when the accident happens, with max. No, nobody saw what happened, but he's found on the floor by his right. Your scooter and the chandelier is next to him also are pieces of the chandelier, and it appears that he's gone over the railing grab

Although the chandelier and came crashing down, there are some different ways but look at this accident with this child. people analyze it and say well, he was riding on his razor scooter, really fast any hit something in that propelled over the rail. Other people say that he was just messing. Round by the rail and maybe tripped over the dog, but the upon the top floor, this pretty thick carpet So him writing his razors scooter on the carpet. and getting enough speed to launch him. Of over a railing. does it, make a lot of sense. Also on the railing. There are marks that appear to be from the razor scooter. There's stuff marks in the paint in that paint is actually found on the razor scooter, Some people say that he's not tall enough or his centre of gravity is too low for him to go over the railing, and I would agree with that

because the railing is pretty tall at the top of the balcony or that you know the staircase, but Being that I used the skateboard as a kid you know the railing going down the handrail going down. The stairs is low and tom. I would all up to go slide down this rail. You would aim for the downward rail because it's much lower and if this child was on the stairs or heading towards the stairs It would make a lot more sense if he flipped over the downward rail and not up on the top, just because of the height difference because of the scuff marks up at the top railing. I almost wonder if either a he was trying to set his Peter up there, if he was trying to buy

once himself on his scooter up on the railing which you might think, why would he do that? Will I did that all the time with my skateboard in it it's dumb, but I did it so it's it's very possible that he was making some bad play decisions I think you were talking about, is possible because done your son had a razor scooter earn right. He plays with outside If you don't know what a razor scooter is, it's it's, a big hunk of metal with wheels and handlebar its wings freely, like You pick it up upside down, it will just swing around at you. I picked it up before, like that. And it swung it mean the shoulder pretty good god. So it's almost like a mace it could be used as a weapon very easily. It's not pleasant to be hit with one of these things. I think it's almost ten pounds

it'll, be about ten pounds hitting you and max is about forty pounds. So he's not a big kid. It's a quarter of his weight coming at him if he picks it up upside down. It could strike him. So there's there's a lot of scenarios of how he could a flip over this railing. There's a lot of people analyzing. It some I'll say that he was thrown over the railing their say that it did apparently it's an apparent accident. I personally, when I was a kid dad age and even older, I did a lot of. I made a lot of bad decisions with my skateboard or bicycle, and I have the scars to prove it. So I kind of go with accident. I think he did flip over the ridge. nothing, but I only see it as maybe he was down the stairs and went over the downward railing. He,

I have even been reaching out to grab a holder, the chandelier and fell once he got a hold of. It is no. Nobody saw it happen. They only saw the aftermath. So it's it's just a horrible since scenario with this child this, stir Rebecca little sister. Teenage sister Zena sees the boy and he's, the one calling nine one one and back was in the bathroom. She just and around when the accident happened so she's, fine, out about it after the fact and coming to the child's aid. while Zenos calling nine when one and she's visiting and since it doesn't live there, she is unclear, where the mansion is what the addresses, so it takes m t and emerge see response teams alive but a timer are nine when what dispatcher a little bit time to figure out where they need to go to they get to the house and the boys

unconscious, not breathing in it's, it's a bad seen yeah. They say the fall damage, the top of his spinal cord and likely stopped his heart. Now, if you're not breathing and you're not getting, for a certain amount of time it affects your brain. You only have this small window, essentially before your braindead. So in this circumstance they may say that he didn't die until five days later, but we get the feeling that while they had revived his body that his brain wasn't there any more so, but that you know that takes time they have to run tests to make absolutely sure of that, because it's they're going to take their time with a child they're not going to just write the child off right away, they're going to fight to try and rescue the child

and so when Rebecca s, how is found hanging on the thirteenth? The boy is still quoting quote alive at that point, he's he's at the hospital his parents are there, so that's kind of the set up. So we we can't say that she acted on information that the boy was dead, but we can say that she was notified that the boy was not likely to make it so she did get that call just trying to set up this whole scenario of this boy. Has this accident, which I agree with it's one of those things the kid will play the kid will get hurt scraped their knee bang, their head something and there okay, everything turns out. Ok, but sometimes there's an accident, and there is no getting away from such a bad scenario.

also you're, going over the the railing nearing and falling down two floors below it's. It's a dangerous proposition, and I can imagine everyone for your in charge of a child. In this case rebecca says that she was in the bathroom. While she doesn't know, anything's happened until I would guess. The chandelier hits the floor yeah because that would be the loud crash, that she hears, I could say what she might have heard the scooter as well. It's one of those things, but I haven't almost imagine that it is likely that chandelier you come upon that seen in theirs. That boy in the skateboards on him and the chandelier. Next to him rebecca reported that he spoke one word which was their word ocean, which The name of her dog, which is of a wider reiner, I dont, know what type of dialogue was. I think it is the name of their don

I believe it is a wider reiner, because it's it's a unique name. You could take that to mean, at the dog was somehow involved. He could have. The dog could have knocked him over He tripped over the dog he tripped over the dog. It could be, they lost control of the scooter when he picked it up upside down, and then the dog hit him somehow coming up the stairs or what have you there's just so many different scenarios there. So you kind of have to wonder: was the dog involved take it as just my opinion, but I almost feel like there's no way he could have uttered a word given what he had just experienced. The dramatic injuries and in everything the spinal cord injury and hitting the floor like he did. I just can't imagine that he could have uttered anything that that was I've brought into question. Was it an accident or not

I do believe it's an accident, but it almost seems a little odd. convenient that he would say, the dogs name, so rebecca rowena is saying. Will he be referred to the dog almost insinuating? The dog was the reason for the accident. Thus we had no part of it, but I don't think it's really here there are there I'd. I don't put much on him saying that ox name rebecca s body is found on July, thirteenth, twenty eleven a couple days after the boy has gone to the hospital she was found naked hanging from the balcony. Her hands were bound behind her back her feet were bound and she had a gag like a t, shirt or something wrapped around her throat and gagged in her mouth. I think there's like six loops around her right hand and eight loops around her left hand in there's like it too,

and tolerance between her hands. According to the the autopsy report for all council purposes, it's kind of an elaborate not same with her feet. Its not it's not a normal knot or binding there hitch knots yeah. So you can slip like the ones that are round the hitch knots for the hands. She would push her hands through each of the loops. then tied up. She can pull one hand out and put it back in as long as she's not point on the rope, not our means not as a not you can use and not for any thing. They. They almost look like bondage knots to me, we'll hit not sir they're typically used in. They can be used in bondage. There. You

used in voting and the reason is because a hitch not just means you're able to tie one object to another now using the not so the way of securing one object to another, that's the simplest way. Put put it so! Yes in bondage, you could use hitch knots to tie sins hands to the bedpost sore here or right I suppose it would be risky, but either way I guess what's key here as they do sell rope, some rope actually is sold with knots already on the ends of the rope. Did you see this, but I thought it was listed as ski rope it. It was just I didn't he it referred to risky rope. I just heard it referred to as nylon or travel are kind of rope, cholera dissent as synthetic rope, noddy, not an organic rope.

Either way it doesnt matter really which kind of rope eu you can use a hitch not with it. But I guess what I'm trying to say is she could of form these knots herself and then it easy for her to slip her hands in relatively so anything. You know any way and her feet. It would be an easy way for to set it up herself compared to some other knots, It is I mean if you're going to bind your hands behind your back. This is pretty much to mine, limited knowledge of bondage. Knots warheads it's it's, it's kind of the only way you can really do it Really enough! When I lived in California, I had a friend who had a roommate who was a bondage fetish model. She blood. To share her photos and what she could do and she could tie herself up almost hog tire self, without assistance from other people, so my initial reaction of, if her hands hide behind your back.

There's no way she could have done that. But then, looking This model that I used to know in california and see indeed reenactments on the news of how you can bind your hands be. And you weird story on home, I'm looking up people finding themselves, people. Tying their hands up or their feet up, while they hang themselves and seeing if its. If it's a thing- and it is, it says it said about a fourth- a people that commit suicide. By hanging, will tie their hands or their feet or use some sort, a gag as almost upon tentative measure to Make sure that the hanging does happen they're making sure that needles. of preservation doesn't kick in and they don't fight it.

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I'm not on the side to central now streaming. On short time. I have attempted to format the oasis decides, who a tennis notify the medical examiner crime scene and almost looks like a large animal attack which series let the right one in new at this old streaming now only on showtime, most The pictures that I saw They would tie their hands kind of loosely, though in typically was in front of body, not behind their back worth it. Behind their back. It wasn't too a two inch tolerance. It was like a from you know, just a regular kind of tying Of course, I'm looking all this up on my computer and my wife walks up behind me and sees these horrible things on my computer. screen and wonder as if I'm feeling depressed and

had to assure her that no one researching this case, it's pretty got For that. If somebody is committing suicide by hanging that they would go that extra step to prevent themselves from escaping the suicide with the findings, it's been promoted, that someone may set it up to where they can't go back or no one can help them. Because no one would hear it again. Two muffle any noise they might make also or to lessen the pain on their throats the hands, art the binding, The hands is to prevent them from grasping at the rope or grasping at anything in the room in the binding of the feet. Just takes the whole thing off of takes them off balance. I had a friend back in the day whose brother committed suicide. He took a belt wrapped it around a closet,

dead, coat hangar in the closet and literally just drank a lot and put the belt around his throat and let his legs go out from underneath them and he used the alcohol to prevent self preservation to fight off the suicide. It's it's a terrible thing now that all that said, when somebody commits side by hanging. Typically, they don't bind their legs and their hands behind their back and use a gag its use lee one or two of these elements, but having all three of these elements is really weird not common. Pretty much, been seen before so it's it's very odd, it's very odd situation to have all the elements in play in one hand:

death- you I'd, love to hear from listeners if they are aware of any other case like this, because I was unable to find it that I mean it's not out there. It just means wolf, it is be very, very rare, ricotta digress there a little bit but. When max the sun goes. You know, has the accident. Jonas brother, Adam and the mother of max Dana Dena, there come into town to give support to check on Jonah check on the on max use in the hospital Adam the town and staying at a guest, the guest house in the backyard during this this time and the night of July twelve. It's

day yeah, and it was said that rebecca had been planning. A party and neighbours did report loud music from the house. That night, which is curious because the police Make it sound as though they are aware of any party having taken place there, there's nothing to support that there was a party and, furthermore, with with max or maxie as they like to call him being in the hospital and near death. It doesn't fit that there would be a party yeah. I think the party would be cancelled, right. But why would there be loud music? So that's thing there: file on them of your mind, I suppose for the time being, is that night, Rebecca was texting her ideas. I think older sister, Back in Missouri, we got some connection. There that she had family in Saint Joseph yeah, which is just

about an hour or less dr north of kansas city. That's right! So she's sitting with her sister Mary about Z. the younger sister, if she arrived home, ok because sheep- the only their visiting so between eight ten p m rebecca is alive and texting with her sister. It is said that she gets a message from Dena at about ten forty eight and she, saying she wants to stop by the mansion to talk about her sons, accident rebecca, never replied to that text. It said that rebecca had a voice message after that text low, but later the voice mess was listen to and deleted. It is suspected that that voice

message was the message of max's condition is going downhill. This is the alleged call that max's, probably not gonna, make it which is kind of the motivation for rebecca to freak out, feel guilty about the child's death feel horrible possibly Jonah and the families going to hate her because the child died under her watch. She might be thinking that when is gonna, leave her there's a lot of speculation as too. If this message what the child's gonna die and if it's, what pushed her to the point of possibly suicide, no matter what you're going to read. If you look into this case that there are all sorts of people specula about what was her state of mind. Look, let's just be honest

out there, you don't need to go in track this down, just think about it, she's with the sky for over two years She wants to be married to him. It is said that he has mentioned that he is interested in doing just that at least he's confided in some friends but his son. and has been severely injured, gravely injured and of that night. It looks like they prefer we are going to be able to save him. He's too far gone. Already at odds with some of his family and with his ex wife. So this is a very stressful situation. There's no way it isn't! No! yeah, it's going to be hard on everybody, so I know that her sister, Mary hat is asked d, sound normal and she replies. Yes, I have a problem with that

as there is no way that she can be normal at this point in time, was in also, if their conferring viii a text message. How can you, How can you tell she sounds normal will? Even if they talk by fire, I can say is maybe she's putting on a good game, face she's doing her best. But when you look at the facts and the facts are that the boy under her care even though she was supposedly in the bathroom took a nasty fall All the way down to the floor from an upper floor and severe the injured, his spinal cord. and is in the hospital there's no way that this is a comfort situation for her. She had to go and pick up family at the airport, not her family. She had VIC up. People related to her husband, but long

are you here. What I'm getting at is this is a stressful situation and it doesn't matter when anybody says this is a very stressful situation and she's probably doing the best she can given the circumstances, because I don't see how she doesn't feel some guy. whether she's, really at fault or not. She has to feel some guilt because she wasn't watching him and you kind of have to wonder why with the boy be allowed to have his scooter on the upper floor like that july, thirteenth, six, forty eight, a m Adam Jonas brother, calls nine one one and reports backer hanging? He claims that he came across her from the balcony, and he had to get a knife to cut her down. He claims that he had to move something away from her wrist to check for a pulse, and you didn't find a pulse There is also a message message

Not a door in black paint, she saved him. Can he save her? That's weird right. This is the and the message where I thought about thought about ever since I I learned of it and I can't sorted out, I've tried I've, tried thinking he saved him. Is this in relation to win her younger sister called nine one. One reported that she had attempted cpr on him. Is that what you mean like she did try to save him ordered save jonah, because Jonah was possibly in a bad place after his second marriage fell apart, which was a very contentious marriage. I did think of that But, on the other hand, can he save her? Will if this is suicide and cheese taken extra steps too,

prevent anyone hearing anything or prevent her from changing your mind after she's done the deed, I find the message doesn't fit. So it's to me it's an out of place message. Let's put it this way. If she's got the rope around her neck and she goes over the side. It doesn't matter to me there she has a gag in her mouth or her hands behind her back once you was over the edge. You think that would be bad cause she's falling down some distance there. It's not like she's, barely above the floor, she she's gone over the balcony and dropping nine ten feet, so wouldn't that be enough. Who's, gonna notice of that point. It's a weird message: it's it's a cryptic message. And it doesnt point to really suicide or murder. It's it's kind of out of the ordinary it it's written. the paintbrush and black paint and people say that

handwriting does not match rebecca, as I don't really think. Much about handwriting analysis, but I think it does point to somebody, but at the same time, when you write something with a pencil or pen between your two fingers it's gonna look different than when you use a paintbrush and kind of do block lettering. There. Two different styles of writing, so I dont I don't know if you can say it's her handwriting or not. I know that people have their, techniques when they write a letter. But I guess, if you're writing on a paper multiple times, you can really think that up. trying to sink up handwriting on a paper too block lettering on a wall. I think it's pretty impossible, so it's it's hard to tell if that was really her handwriting or not. I don't know, I think it's just not enough information most. She did pay

and her family swears that she signed her name with paint brushes on paintings, so they feel like they would know her signature and when I look at it again. The only thing that I found out was, they did say. Given her height, she was five foot three and she was one hundred pounds, and It should be noted, she's, very athletic woman. She could enter a race without specifically training for that race, just because she kept herself in such top shape. But if she did write this message, she had to have reached up the message: wasn't written comfortably in front of her. It was written high up on the door. So it's kind of a question and yes, even though the families, whereas they would recognize her signature or her writing. I think it's difficult. You say that as well again, we don't know if she was it at that point, and she was upset. Who knows that that affected her writing? If she did write it

and if it was somebody else, we'd have to find some evidence of this. If somebody else, there must be some serve clue left behind to let us know if it was somebody else or not, and we go over that yeah so Adam that the brother reports this situation, and the police officer show up and investigate and Adam even goes in to the police station to give a report to interview and because and about it, and he actually submits to a polygraph test and the videos out there on youtube. You can watch him answer these questions I don't know of any my reaction to watching him was, I can't he's. Try if he's lying or not, because I dont his personality, I dont, how he responds or behaves in a normal conversation, So some of those mannerisms seem weird to me, but I dont know: if that's him, trying to be

sneaky and lie. Or if he's trying or if just he's a weird qana guy but the end of the polygraph test, its inconclusive, whether he's being deceptive or not why, as we pointed out, the pass were not really sure that paragraphs are worth a whole lot. I would say you can watch the person you can get it got instinct. I'm sure detectives are good with that, but we have to give me the bat. The doubt that he cared about this boy. That boys Barely hang on and I'm sure that's a stressful situation as well, so you can say while they account for that they give you they used to give you questions. So they might ask you know: what's your favorite heller what kind of card you drive and then they might say, do you know anything about what happened to rebecca zau? and see if there is a major change in his reaction on the graph in being that his submitting to this polygraph test so close to the incident it could throw is

You know emotional response off. I mean, I think, if you take a polygraph a week after the event or two weeks after the event, you might have settled down a little bit better. I don't know I mean again don't put a lot of stock and polygraph tests, the fact that it came out inconclusive maybe he's still in a heightened sense of freak out because of the boy and finding rebecca hanging off of a balcony. But I think the autopsy and A few other pieces of evidence cannot turn this whole thing on its head from the autopsy report. There are a couple interesting things. One is theirs black paint on rebecca dat. They say it's on breasts in that's about all the more detail. The black paying out on the black pain is given in its

assumed that when she was painting this message on the door, she rubbed some on herself or something. But you have a different take on this. Well, I'm a little influence because when they, when they did their investigation, they checked out the computers they even checked out adams phone the day he comes in that day a computer in the home is acts is found to have accessed pornography and he admits to looking at the panel on his phone. He has an iphone

but I dont know that he admitted to using the home computer, but the thing here is that apparently, the same kind of searches were don both on the computer in the house and then on as his phone and his phone. He search for that stuff, the very next day, which would be when he found her. So he he looked that day as well, and it was quantum quote asian porn and bondage, anime so varies very strange. I would say, given that rebecca, how is I believe, she's well she's of from Burma shes burmese also Adam, is a boatman and he knows how to tie boat, knots, hitch knots and he's looking at asian porn due to some odd factors here and she's found nude. And she has black paint on her well, the family contends that it was on her nipples, Rebecca S, family right

now. We know where their minds are out because they filed a wrongful death suit and then let let's just stop real quick a day. The police Yes, if you ve ever been following this case, the police actually declare that rebecca His death was a suicide in september after after the fact and rebecca s family not happy with this decision. pursuing a civil lawsuit, and they're using a lot of the autopsy evidence and other things for their case, so just to clear that up, if any one wonders why the family suing it's, because the authorities declared it assumes, Ryan there's all kinds of problems with this, because the authorities seem to take Adam at his word exactly He says something and aid just taken his word. He didn't leave her where she was hanging He cut her down and moved her by and then he does.

serve the body by messing with the binding on the wrists. And removing the gag from the mouth, and he technically is the only one there that night, that's confirmed now we in assume mac. his mother Dena might have said by also because of her text ej saying I'm gonna come by and talk to you about my son's accident You do know out and was there he admits to being there all night, I believe Dena. Oh jonas car now and he midst being there. So there is no question that you that he wasn't present, but he was you know me how much of this house karsten and granada's not cheap. It's a huge, it's a twelve point: seven million our home yeah I am sure that the guest house in the backs, probably bigger and nicer than my home here, but whatever

he's the only one there somebody's dead, he's kind of the prime suspect. If it's a murderer, if it's aside, but they never seem to consider it as such and when I found curious is when he reports it makes it sound as though he knew it was suicide right away, but with her feet and her like her ankles and her wrists bound, especially her risk being bound binder back hanging. I know we know we ve looked at some people have been able to demonstrate as possible that it can be done. Or there is a will there- is a way, but I guess my point is that it seems awfully elaborate. I know that ninety nine point- nine percent of hanging deaths- are suicide and not homicide, but if I were to across a hanging body whose hands are bound,

My initial got reaction is not suicide, especially in the way that she was found. It almost looks like mentioning she has injuries to her head. She has multiple injuries. Not enough to kill her bed and oddly She has cuts over her back. I initially look at the head injuries and think she could have suffered those going over the railing when she is taking the fall that doesn't explain the markings on her back. There's multiple, Michael of marks, oliver back in so I thought will mean she was rubbing up against something when she was dangling. I hate to get to graphic here, but but at the same time balcony that she's dangling from theirs Thing underneath it so there's

nothing really for her to hit or scrape against her arms, do not have these marks on them, but her back as so. It's almost as if these marks happened before her hands were bound because there's no slits or marks on her arm. So if she was rubbing up against something with her hands bound, it would rub up against her arms to write. You would think also there's the footprints on the balcony that are very concerning to me, says: she's barefoot she leaves footprints on the balcony. Did you say was her left foot shows up, but a right one it's not now it's the other way around her right foot is there in her left foot? Not so have you heard yet her left foot doesn't seem to show up, you can imagine both of your feet bound together.

The only way to move around would be to hop and you're not going to be hopping on one foot, you're going to be hopping with both feet, because first thing she's gotta, do is tie the rope to the bed. Then do all these other steps the way this has to happen as she asked a bind her feet. First,. Then she has to put a gag in and put the rope around her throat and then the last thing she does is bind her hands behind her back and then she's got a hop over to the balcony and she's hopping on one. And then she goes over. The railing by the bed doesn't move that far now, and that's another odd thing here is that The bed only move, I think they said what it moves like a foot or something less than a foot and move like seven inches or eight inches and is very She weighs a hundred pounds. You would think she could have pulled that bet out o o further. I don't there was the new story, cause god bless

horrible, morbid news media? Were they re act, the entire thing with a female student, but she knows tied these elaborate. Not so I don't know how she knows that, but the bed moves up to thirty two forty inches when they drop a bag over a railing, a hundred pounds punching bag, essentially to represent rob. His body and also the law student. That's bound self she's hopping on both feet and it's not an easy task and it takes her a good thirty to thirty five minutes this I tried to do the not that they do. I can't do it now. I can't I'd tried about three times. I could do it. So it's something that you have to inherently know how to do something. You can just watch youtube video and have it figured out what makes you wonder if, if it's true and I've looked at the the images, I couldn't find the left footprint either

but if she was out there she's a print just inside the balcony yeah and then another one at the very edge up against near the railing. Some people surmise that she could have had one leg lifted up if someone was behind. Her somewhat was carrying her out that way and then set her briefly down going through the gotta, the exit to the balcony kind, picking her up and they live europe and then setting her down again right before the pudding or over the railing because she's a hundred pounds, so it kind of, question: who was someone there? Well, there is a boot pray out there on the balcony, but its explained by the police as being one of theirs. But then there are these other prints. that this is analysis, by a couple of different people, but they say that these shoeprints with these unique ridges That they actually are on top of her parents and appear be right behind

turn overlapping some as if she there stepping into where she is behind her and that's why they're kind of not now they can really see them very well because there, on top of her footprint, so it's yet a pizza, the side. Some! If you look it up online, you can see the images just search for how print analysis and you'll find what we ve seen. I've seen it on someone's. log and have also seen it, as I believe, the blog took the information from a website that I found it like a new site where they had some one that was hired to take a look at the the balcony and he says that he believes the police miss this because he said this is compelling and for me, in that should throw the suicide finding into question? So you could spend quite a bit of time. Looking at these prints, you can ivory self? Whether you think someone was behind her, I kind of

under if she can set a foot down, but not the other if it did go down that way. I dont think her feet were bound until after she went over because you, be dangling at that point and some wicked easily bind her lake legs together then, but that doesn't a lot of sense, noble I would their only be the single print there, the light footprint here and then layer over there. because you, if they're bound together, you can't? How do you One leg up out of the way the you really don't, so it would lead more too. somebody's lifting her up and maneuvering her to toss her over the railing. Yet it is really a question because, if you're going, two, as you say most almost all these issues They are usually legitimate suicides. If you're going to kill someone and make. like a suicide. Why would you bind them yet

that that's, what makes no sense either is if I'm going. If somebody's going to kill you and try to make looked like a suicide, why would strip you naked and bind you like that. they weren't trying to make it look like a suicide. At that point, they were just murdering you and they didn't care what it looked like. That's how I feel I think could be argued that if it is a murder that there too the humiliate her, because they have her naked. They have her bound up and to give you an idea after the body was discovered neighbours, especially There is in particular one neighbour that came out. It was inviting people ought to take pictures from his house would be a humiliating thing and you can understand why the family was so upset. There is another problem to which is there's a what appears to be a ligature mark across her neck that doesn't fit the characteristics of the.

cord or rope that was used on her. Almost your dinner at almost appears like a wire, was used on her throat first and then a rope site. There's two ligature marks one underneath the other so Is this a first attempt in a failed attempt. and then a rope, or is this somebody controlling her with smaller ligature and then binding her in fulfilling the final? It could go either way right. Sort of stands out it's hard to work out, so you may. sitting there. Thinking to yourself we'll case this is murder. Why did the police miss this? Well, the police, as with many people out there in the public, put huge stock,

in something known as dna, there were a number of items found. There were a couple of different knives found. There were several gloves, one of which I think a solo glove. Neither one was a pair. They even tested the the rope the bindings they couldn't find find usable dna other than dna that belong to rebecca. How so her dean, was the only one that was obvious and easily tested The other dna which they didn't announced right away. They waited until I believe it was an bremner, the lawyer representing this, how family came on pressure there and they did release that they did find mixed dna, but that it was not usable to them because it was in such a small amount. So it begs the question are these glove sort of just thrown there for what reason? And we, because they is not

There is the why they would be used and for what purpose, but then they also don't have dna available on them. That would tell you who wore them so was there another set of gloves possible? another pair. Why were the gloves even there I get if you're going to suicide. You can you can do these things. You might need the knife to cut the rope and whatever, but what he knew gloves for they don't fit in this suicide scenario but then, if someone did killer, why didn't they just take everything with them somebody did killer and they wanted it to look like a suicide. Why did they? that way, but Again we don't they killed her than they weren't even trying to cover it up as a suicide. They just murdered or outright says she has these four areas on her head. That look like she suffered blunt forest trauma and they did find a clump of her hair in the shower. They found blood. They didn't test all the blood

and where did a ford they find the blood at will they found? in, they found some blood in the shower and they found a little bit of blood outside the shower, and I think their thinking was well. If she had menstrual blood, then it would account for the blood elsewhere. That raises all sorts of questions. It's almost like. They just made an assumption like they did with Adam story where he says what he saw when he got there And they just ran with it. So not saying they got it wrong necessarily, but it raises the question of: did they cheat to get to the finish line and then what did they miss yet. If there is, if there's blood in the shower blood in the bathroom, why is their blood you? You could say it was dripping? You can say that, but we we can't prove it. So it's just odd to have blood speckles other places. It's odd to have blood speckles pretty much anywhere.

There has been talk about tape, residue and she did have a place on her leg, were she had in india? it was healing, and so some people speculated might from a bandage other people say that the tape residue is further down away from that area by it. They never found any tape at the residents. So it's that's another loosened, I'm sure people have heard of. Actor sera whacked. He has done investigations. He has done autopsies in many famous cases when he took a look at case. He says he leans very strongly against it being a suicide and he's got a problem with the blows to her head, because he doesn't believe that you can get those four blows to the head by hitting anything ass. She went over the railing. He also talks about the

ligature mark, and he also notes that her neck wasn't broken by the fall from the balcony, and he also points out that the way she is tied up seems elaborate for a suicide. So for him I guess what you could say is when he Look at this he's trying to say that there are enough questions here that he felt as though the final it was. A suicide was surprised that may be they should have kept investigating kept looking at the information, and yet they didn't They spent a decent amount of time on this month and a half or more, they had up to fifteen detectives working the case from different departments. it just the suicide angle, seems fishy. I think, with the lack of dna it made it easy for. The detectives due to say Well, we're not finding any evidence that anyone else was there with her. I concur

understand why they would go with suicide. I it's not that unreasonable to if they don't find any other evidence of other people at the scene, although the footprints show that there could have possibly been somebody else at the scene, and when you just take into account that most, if not all hanging? things are typically suicide and there very few hangings that our homicide. I think they're just run in the numbers, and I is enough question there that maybe a month month, half of time before closing the case as a suicide might not have given them enough time to really analyze and research. What happened in this house. it might have been a little premature. Will there is a question if they miss those prints on the balcony, because they kept stating that the only prince found were her.

But if you look at the actual images it does appear like their shoeprints and they're, not exactly shoeprints. They believe, based on the tread pat there is some sort of a sandal near they were at the beach and their very close to the beach and they in their on top of her footprints. Oh it was it. Somebody investigating the murder scene and they stepped on top for prints, Why would a police officer or forensics investigator be wearing those kind of shoes and they would more sense that it would be a family amber or something yet says that he doesn't go to that house that he that's her down and then notifies the authorities yeah. So but again, he says that he touches these items is

As I am aware, the night that he says he uses to cut her down with doesn't reflect any dean air prince from him, which is that it can happen you don't everywhere. You touch, doesn't exactly leave a perfect fingerprint, sometimes can just leave a smear in whatever I dont know. it's it's no dna yeah. It should have something you know it seems clean It is kind of reminds me in the Jeffrey mcdonald case where he says that he places phone call, and he let them know which, he had used, but the phones clean. They can't find his his prints on. It It's it's just to me that little red flag it it's just something that everytime, I think about Adam and his story. I just keep getting doubts the best way I can put it. Why would they kill her

in this fashion, if we're just going to assume it's murder or homicide, why would somebody kill her this way, so I've I've heard the different theories, and I think people should look up this suit, that the Xiao family filed against DINA, her sister nina and against. shack nigh. They should look that out because they have their own theory about how this went down and they believe. all three of those conspired together to kill rebecca now I would say, if you think about it, I'm sure every eyes. Come across this at some point. There life I know I have, but either you have Uncle nearby or a brother or you may even say yourself. If someone ever hurts. And then you fell in with a child's name: either yours, your daughter, were your nephew or niece my family. I will kill them. need to go. They don't need to go to trial.

I realize here that there is no. Evidence that rebecca did anything malicious against max, but he died under her care There is already some animosity there between Dena and rebecca as no, she didn't respond to dinas contact right, yeah, that's where it appears and they're, not in the best terms. Think about it, rebecca with her ex husband and rebecca, was very attractive. younger an ex wife is not gonna like that. It's just going to add to the animosity non I am not saying this is naturally what happened, but I could see a scenario in which As far as I am aware, Dena had one child and it was max because he had two children with his first one, And they had been in town prior to this happening and of course,

question about when they actually left. Dean is very up front about how this has been It's been devastating for her to lose max He was her life. Basically. If she doesn't already like rebecca, you know he takes that nasty fall. While she supposed be watching him. Who knows what she was we have no idea. I dont know if she was in your toenails or what have you, but she wasn't watching him. She was in the bathroom, and so you could say well, she just went in there. Maybe she had used the restroom or perhaps she was just pampering herself. We have no idea. He's six years old I mean I can tell you, I don't. I have a seven year old. I don't watch him like a hawk constantly, but of course I live a mansion where we have floors that high up. Regardless of negligence, regardless of maliciousness, your child is,

horribly injured wall. Another adult. Parent guardian, whatever is supposed to be watching them you're going you blame that adult regard of it, whether they're at fault, it's just gonna cause a major rift perception is everything I dont know if he'll hear this by it, I used to to school or the guy and work with him, and this was back around This is back in my high school days and I used to write lorries all the time. I wrote a star one time, but these two brothers they end up having an accident. One of them dies. Well, I didn't realize this, but this got it. I work with. He had a brother with the same name of the guy who dies of my story or the kid that dies of my story, I think their names were billy and george and Billy was pissed. He thought your written about him. I had no, I yeah, I didn't know anything about his family. I knew his,

his bill, but in my service William George, and it was two kids. I had no idea, I tried talking to him. I said man, I knew nothing about your family. I I just I never even talk to you at school or work. I would just say hey and we see Yolanda. I didn't I one thing about the guy- and there is nothing I could see, as far as I am aware, he never spoke to me again and, it brought up all those feelings that he had of having lost his brother. What do you say to that? You can't make that right, because they're they're too upset they can't. I think they can't allow, for there was a mistake here, so it the possibility here. Though, I mean all week long and even before that thinking about this case, my mind's, been everywhere on it. My initial reaction when I read the autopsy report was murder, but

as I was doing my research, I action kind of what more in the middle. I I can accept that it might have been suicide but if it was a suicide, it's one of them. complicated. Weird elaborate suicides and history Maybe maybe somebody else can point out that even more crazy than this, but if, was suicide. It is they most weird. on common way. Anyone could do it. I think the cops enforcement. I think there is a few other things they can looked into two really very, fi when it happened that night and they might not of some of the other evidence as much as they should have. I say that I felt that the law enforcement was truly.

black for or at fault in their findings idle. I don't know if I buy that there was influenced by this rich guy Jonah that bought the cops off to you now say it's a suicide. I I think that the police officers truly believe their investigation and their findings, and I can't exactly disagree with them, but at the same time, I think that there is more to this case that needs to be looked at and I understand why her family is suing ye deadly feel like now that more information, come out. I don't understand why they say that nothing significant has come to light for them to look into this further. That strikes me as very very range I understand that you have in each here, you have your pride, but this woman died, and I mean it's mine- option. But I just don't understand why some one would write a cryptic message and do this

albert suicide with hard to explain injuries that took place before It just seems like there's a lot of unanswered questions here and I suppose that it's easier for me, Look at the murder angle because of the loud music it would cover up any sort of confrontation struggle struggle inside the house. There is no party going on not with max in the hospital like that and not with the brother there and he think it in the brother didn't even really say there was a party going on or there were people over. I don't think mention the music at all? Did he does mention the music? That's what it What does he say about it? Just says there is loud music being played another element- I guess that I'm missing here is. I know that Jonah and rebecca, probably are private people but Were they in bondage

on earth, which you know how to tie these knots, and would anyone have a clue? Were you know what her family or any one? I mean enough if joan actually is being sued, who, having sued more it's the his ex wife, is brother and and her twin sister and her twin sister which I guess, if he would want to come to the aid of his family. He would say well, this is something that we engaged in and she would know how to tie those nonce. I guess there is that is a weird element to me is how would somebody know how to do that and Don't know what their backgrounds are. Did he mention hearing anything else, Adam that you can recall, I just remember his interview when he has taken the polygraph and, and maybe it wasn't that complete interview led a neighbor heard. A scream

at first when I was reading it. It says the neighbourhood screams, but then later is clarified, heard just one scream. That's what I recall from my reading, but if it's her being subdued, it would be her screaming. Ok, so you could look at and say well if she screams, maybe that's. Why should gags herself, because she so upset or distraught or he's gagged because she did scream and someone shoves the t shirt into her mouth thou would make more sense. You could drive yourself in this case because you can

keep going in one direction or the other? All I can say. Is they really just need to take a look at this again, maybe with different eyes, because I can see you know I've gotten stuck on a case before and thought something for a long time and then had my doubts later. That's happened actually a couple of times, so this is one of those cases where it just seems like. There's too many unanswered questions unanswered injuries, and I have yet to hear someone account for those injuries as if it was still suicide, as if she did try to strangle herself as He did whip herself with something on her back. I guess, but no one's no one's brought that up, and so the going story is either that she was distraught and when she found out that max wasn't going to make it, then she it was too much for And on the other side, you have this, how family that saying that she,

he would never kill herself and that there were these people Dena Nina and Adam who conspired to attack her and bind her and, I believe, have Adam toss her over so I just I guess so I brought my habit. The suit is, I understand how their trial- to get all three of those people there. I understand that chronology that they set out to established, and then they also talk about having one or both those sitting on the bad that it won't move because they real eyes that if she goes over and the beggars she might just lay on the ground, I understand that by their. Reading through their suit, I it's hard for me to accept everything they lay out the way they lay it out, and maybe it because I'm not I'm not getting it. Maybe most

well if they read it. So I would encourage people to read their suit. Go through the steps. They say that happened at one point: they think that she tries to flee, but that doesn't make sense to me because this is an athletic woman. The women better are their dna nina are nowhere near her caliber. They cannot keep up with her. So if I buy the murder angle that all three of those were involved, if I buy that, then I think she was ambushed in the bathroom where she couldn't escape. And maybe you know, maybe it was a pressure situation where they kept asking here when a what happened max, and maybe she tried to explain it, you know defending herself with words emotionally defending herself not trying to defend

off killers, but maybe that's what it became if they were involved. You know it with the anger building up in them, maybe not buying her story and have one of the women were vocal about, not accepting her story as to what half of the max I I believe it's quite clear from the way that they answer the questions that one of the sisters thinks she's just outright lying and in fact she herself perhaps may be lies about when she knew about max's turn.

the worse, at least as far as the hospital is reporting. So it's a very complicated case The. In the late. Sixteen hundred the coast of north America became a hotbed of piracy, but a man

And pirates were much more than just armed robbery of the high seas. They were also crucial figures in the growth of the thirteen colonies that would eventually become the united states. I lindsey grand the hosts of wonders, show american history tellers. We take you to the events times and people that shaped america and americans our values Struggles and our dreams. In our latest series. We take you back to the so called golden age of piracy and reveal the true stories behind such mythical figures as black beard and captain kidd. Listen, the age of pirates by following american history tellers on apple podcast, amazon, music or wherever you get. Your pot casts within one. we eagerly and ad free by joining one replace an apple upon casts or the one rehab