« The Generation Why Podcast

The Redhead Murders - 459


On this episode, Justin is joined by Shane Waters of the FoulPlay podcast to discuss a serial killer case he was involved in. In 2016, Shane had placed a red cross at the site where the body of a Jane Doe victim was found in Arkansas in 1984. This small act led Shane down a path of investigation, intrigue, and assistance from an unexpected source. Shane was able to discover the identity of the murdered victim and was able to connect additional victims to the investigation. Sometimes we don't realize how one small act of kindness will affect the world around us. 


Can't get enough Generation WHY? There is much more: patreon.com/generationwhy

Listen ad free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. Available in the Wondery App. https://wondery.app.link/generationwhy.

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joint, wondering plus in the wondering app from wondering doing tonight chain. I'm doing gonna. How are you just it yeah, I had a rough night sleeping, so this morning's kind of a rebel and Ritalin kind of mourning better, I'm doing good
you say morning it's two p m eastern tat, ass, you how you doing tonight. You know it's all smoke and mirrors man. Let's not wide? Anyone you just woke up, I understand so as most of the listeners are hearing a different voice. Besides Erin Shane is a pot castor that has a wonderful. I guess you should all listen to and I don't want to take a thunder Shane so go ahead and introduce yourself yeah, so my part causes called foul play also the pod castor of hometown history, and when did you start those start foul play twenty fourteen hometown history was started in twenty six terribly enough, summary of both? Yes, I foul play. Typically, listeners are hearing some serious that I've put together based on an investigation of some kind hometown,
history is history that you probably are unaware of Africa. towns across the United States. I love it here and You remember when we first met, I would assume attack crime cohesion problem Indianapolis? I remember having a picture taken us both do remember that yeah, but I I just remember we were walking side by side and I looked up at you there's very few people on world that I look up at because I am a six point three and I, I'm sure I made some snark ridiculous comment about your size and height B. I saw I am I'm six foot nine and, as my friends will all tell you, I could be heard for Halloween. We must it's a very rare occasion run like, while I feel short, however, I will say that that's why thing, though, is an interesting. I am, I think, to bring up
has going into the crime world, especially someone who does a lot of interviews in person with people I've always been aware of I'm a very large person and to go speak with people who may be they ve they ve gone to a lot of things and they may not be as comfortable with especially men this is something I have always had the mind on how to make people feel more comfortable. It can help have dimples. There's someone smile, you see them and I feel like that's like the biggest the biggest thing. Going for me. I got us any a calming voice too? Oh god. Thank you doctor that helped me alive during my the phone days. I guess I don't know who thank you for calling. How can I help you so? talked a lot over the years, and I know little bit about some of the cases you ve covered. But tonight you wanted to talk about a case. Have you
shared this before lake publicly. I've shared some details because I try to use social media impact podcasting as a way to try to gain more information and when start telling you about this case. You will realize how I kind of used in as a tool but it was away the bike again information, and I was being stone walled a lot by a lot of people who you would really be surprised about us ignorant, podcast us, no we're doing right. That's that's the thing being old by law enforcement. Oh you must be the podcast repeat that as dirty word, you know, and now in a lotta, Netflix series and stuff, you you see and in all kinds of little documentaries and stuff, this crime podcast with pop up, and there always you know, a nosey person who is always what for that got moment, which I mean I'm not not for that.
Not for the gotcha moments, I guess, but I did see Lee cheer during the Avenue Holloway movie, when Michael Myers killed the pod casters of light tat, it had deserved it. Have you seen the new season of doktor yeah there's a pod, started and ass soon ass, she showed up. I was like oh they're gonna make our podcast her and she he did an interview and she talked about her influences and she said she list. two degeneration. Why? Oh railway, that's cool, headed and realise that very flattering. There. Small business owners. No time is money, so don't waste either with repeated trips to the post office, withstands, dot, com, you can skip the trip and this on how to take your small business to the next level stamps dot com lets you print official postage right from your Peter and saves you money in the process, so you can spend less time at the post office and more time making your customers happy whether you're in,
office sending invoices aside Hustle Etsy Shop or a full blown warehouse shipping out orders stamps dot com will make your life easier, you're up and running. In minutes, printing official postage for any letter, Annie package anywhere. You want to send stop overpaying for shipping with stamps dot com site with promo code wondering for a special offer that includes a for weak trial, free postage and digital scale, no long term commitments or contracts just go to stamp out. Come click. The microphone at the top of the page and enter code wondering acting is the smartest way to shop and save you can earn cash back? over thirty five hundred stores, whether it's fast and beauty, electronics, homosexuals, travelling, dining or subscription services. You can earn cash back with racket in membership is free and it's really easy to sign up rocketing deposits. Your cash back directly into your Paypal account, or they can send you a check. It's a nobody you are earning cash back when you shop, it's like you're, getting
Aid to shop start getting cash back now with racket in rocketing. Has fifteen million members who are already saving start all of your shopping, the racket and at racket, dot com or get the racket in at the start. Saving today, your cash back really adds up but had a, I don't know an accidental conversation the other day and you asked if you could come on in story about how you helped the these were solved. The case and your journey that and I thought it sounded Emily interesting and I'm excited to hear what you have to say, though we can just jump right and if you want ok That sounds good and just so that everyone is aware. You dont know about the case. Some about tell you so now. This is common, a cold right, yeah, everything's, fine, so this is a case that, I guess start I'll- have to tell you that
around the United States, there are six red crosses specific they are in West Memphis Arkansas. There are three in see there is one in Kentucky and theirs. in West Virginia in they, tire story of how that happened started a boat. say five years ago, when my cousin, you know being true prime person that I am my cousin, who was in Kentucky called me in she was like king theirs. They are a Jane DOE from here. I don't know looked into that, but there is a gravestone budget says Jane DOE, that's all I know about it. You should come here and So what are you can find? So as any good? Castro say: ok, lessons, fun, intriguing, yeah, yeah yeah, so special, I'm talking about barber well, whereas the locals call it Barville bar work and
I'm from northern in Vienna. So I get to barber and I see the stone and it's a very plain. Stone, innocent, Terry on top of this hill at a very secluded. I thought I was gonna get shot driving to it. It was very scary, and then I saw ok, I gotta find out. You know, I'm always looking for good mystery. Just for myself. No other reason: socio when you find out like what was once a story. On the stone suggest. That she was found in the early nineties eighties. they start doing a lot of digging in old newspaper articles, and I found She indeed was murdered in the eighties. She had been found in a fridge orator, that was left in a play, said the locals left junk. Like a dumping, of sorts, that's all fine about her so I started doing a little bit more doing and I came
this article I was about how this detective thought that this case was linked to a series of other murders intriguing- I have never heard of this case and as a true friend, Castro myself in a troop I'm fan, unlike my wonder why I have not heard about this. Like sluggish, sounds like something that should be aware of, especially as it so close to home and a possible. serial killer if there's multiple murders here, yeah? I had a lot of questions. Why did someone that all these were connected Why was the case unsolved? Why were these still Jane DOE victims, the who's that I found listed up to twelve different people that it that could be linked So I realise that the cases per cent are considered unsolved and they
all under the jurisdiction of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and from what I can gather They were still the clearing house. for all of the cases, because it was still likely that a serial killer was the person who killed all these women today. were able to rule out. So I try to come the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation of investigation about it that go well that didn't over so well, so I sent an email, never heard back start doing a little bit more digging, and I thought why if there's even someone who's been assigned to this like it that it just seemed like there's nothing in the news. There's no new articles being written about theirs, nothing online and I wonder why was anyone aware that cases even existed at this point, so I called in- We got transfer all around the world. I may I get lady and she's, like
ok, so I'm looking at the cases, yet it is still unsolved in its our court case team is ensured. of the case I was I Hey. Do you mind if I have like? I speak to someone you know if, something I could do to help I'd like to do that. If you guys need help in sharing or trying to get these Jane toes identify like help with sharing of that stuff and very rich late she's like well. No thank you and if we I need your help, will call you and I was like ok what I get an email in case I run across something, but I feel like you guys, should know, and then I heard click ok, ok, I can change people in a react towards me. So that's fine, the abbot to me. It's ok, back customer service and professionalism I would have said: hey this,
under our jurisdiction. We have it assigned to a person and we don't usually or typically seek help from the public unless we ask so thank you but move on your way, not just hang up on you, right, I knew that they were going to tell me any information. I just more of wanted to find out if there, an email or a number that I can call with tips. If I were able to find anything so the next, that happens. Is I start looking in two of these victims anti. to decide which ones could I be linked to the. I could find more information about these people so out of about the fifteen set the tv I was looking into. Early eighties I was able to narrow it down too likely six women. Looked similar they were murdered in similar ways And so I was there okay, so these these women more.
we then not were murdered by the same person. I mean it. S was very damaging so that women. Specifically only one of them had ever been identified. Her knee was LISA Nicholls. She was found in West Memphis Arkansas all the other women were still up to that time. Jane doze and so youth in Kentucky Tennessee and Arkansas. So this is a cross, multiple state to your end, West Virginia so I mean we was like: okay, well, one of them's identified. I wonder if I can track down, I'm way. You know any any details like that. Because I know that Jane DOE cases typically there's not much, that you'll be able to find about them, especially because you don't know who they are, so you can't come up with a good temper file on you know, like the person was, how did they get there? Where were they from who? Did they come into contact with? What was their lifelike information is available
to you when you are dealing with a Jane DOE case so immediately. I saw that the least Nicholls victim was the most likely to give me information, so I tried poor. All this information as much as I could. I called the local sheriffs department the local sheriffs department? I explained where this woman was found. It was a long interstate as you are leaving Memphis into West Memphis and the sheriff buzz I'm sorry, sir, we I do not have a victim from that area from that time period. It all sounds like Bob that's weird, because I have all this information that says that she was found. There was a red be happy to give this to you in the in the guy. Was very very nice and he's like well do some calling around and see what else I can find in. A few days later, I heard back for a moment. There was an older gentlemen there, who I
had retired at some point, but he came back and he was around at the time when she was found confirmed yeah, I was the scene. We did have a victim from our patient, but they had misplaced file. It seemed so. I had a really good conversation with him. Of course, this guy was an office way after she was found in so I dont place, but Let them at all. You know, that's not what one I was blocked the day I was trying to find more information about this person use the information I gather from him along with any articles from that time. Here of any interviews about LISA Nicholls, she was found on the side of the inner state. I believe she didn't have any clothing on she was a red head, very young, they estimate of her to be a younger than twin years old and they that she had had children at some point in her life together, they knew a Jane DOE. Victim
I'm honestly not surprised that the first officer you spoke with didn't have any clue. What you're talking And everyone just believes that they have this perfect database, were they just type in a name, and everything comes up for them, but it's not like that. and I think it's important for people to kind of level set their expectation on how long Where's man from state to state is different how they might not be able to just pull up a record of a murder victim just within sight. Hence it just doesn't work that way, and he told me point blank if I hadn't told him about this, this person but he would never have been looking too, not any more information about her, so when LISA was identified, aid news, specifically in Memphis in Nashville, and the time the attack in charge of her case was untrue.
not to get all redhead on all red faced right now. This always upsets me, but the detect was interviewed by the by the media and in the interview quoted as saying argue LISA Nicholls what we know about her, she had a bad drug problem and she was a prostitute. He says that she'd stretched from the ceiling to the floor two times to win the the media. asked him. You know how bad did she have a drug problem. He said Lisa Nicholls had a drug problem like my car has a gasoline problem and I just thought why would you use this kind of language to the sky someone who you're supposed to be trying to find out who killed her and that I've got my mind going as ok. Shame this entire time, I'm trying to think why. Why did society and these detective
and the media forget about these women in this is the best idea that I can get, the people who were in charge of solving the case was using language to describe her like she was this other person and I think that language helped those can nowadays feel like me, be this woman deserved it, but it was, I believe that the time and I still hold the belief very strongly. That because of that, the type of language being used about not only LISA, but these other women I've I've, I just think, society at that time, didn't care now most. Hopefully realise that these are human beings with value, but the time I think that's what helped the cases be forgotten in throughout next series of processes. I was able to track down the other original detectives that worked on all the other six cases. of the main ones I had it
We had a meeting with him and I him did. He feel like these Six women were killed by the in person in he said I have no doubt then I said ok So do you think that there are more than these six women, because at that time I had locked and all types of databases to try to see if there were any others, I could link any jane- I have no doubt other women, but you will never find them. like my wife, they were murdered. You think he liked the body, so I couldn't find him and he said no, because these women are throw ways and that term had ever brought my ears before and saw was like ok well, what is the throwaway any such Jane. A few are homeless. If you ve had a drug problem, if you are Prossa two or if you are not white, your throw away p. Well consider you as a throw away is.
More evidence of my mind on why these cases were quickly forgotten about and Immediately when he told me that Justin I know the we we ve talked few times and in That you also d, don't know a whole lot about me. Besides I'm, a very large person and I'm a podcast as Well Hall person right but when he said that immediately when he said the word homeless. realize that I had more of an attachment to this case in these people, these women, because at one point in my life, I was a throwaway person and to think about that that, like society, you wouldn't have cared. If I was murdered at that time and to give you a little bit more detail about that. When I was in high school, I was abandoned. I became homeless to the point to where I was
staying overnight in the theater. Was it so that has it may have been to quote outside I didn't out of things that most People will never have to do because they have people on their lives. Who will look after them no that their missing. Who know that if you're not for dinner, someone's gonna be looking for you. I didn't have that because of that and going to those experiences even today, I have this thing in my mind where things sometimes with other people I'm transactional, because I I'm always reminded that at point in your life and have all these relationships with people and you can talk to them, but You really need help. You may not get it, and I did I didn't help- and I didn't get help and so coming from that to hearing a detective
Tell me that these women were throw away and no one cared. In my mind, I thought okay. This is why I am so attached. I didn't twig until then, but from now Point on, I was okay well of these women. need someone to care about them here. I am take moment, get word from our sponsor Are you looking for a way to take control of your health while one way to do that is to check good our exe, and finally stop overpaying for your prescription medications see prescription. this can vary between pharmacies, meaning you, ever sure if you're getting the right deal, not only will good our ex find you discounts, but it will also let you compare and find the lowest prices. Have pharmacies near you. Even if you have it Parents are Medicare good. Our ex often beats your copy price. In fact anytime, you need to prescription just checking good. Our ex could save you up to eighty percent. Taking control of prescription causes free and easy with Gunnar Rex, checked the website or download the free good Aurex app. I remember the
Tom, I use good our x, I don't even know about it, but the lady behind the counter was concerned about the price of my prescription and she said hey. I can get you a huge discount. You just got a sign for good. Our extra quick and let's just say that she saved me a lot of money that day very appreciative so far, simple smart savings on your prescriptions check. Good aurex go to good, are ex dot com, Slash J, W P, that is good. Our ex dot com, Slash Cheetah, BP, one more time, good, our ex dot com, slashing she w p good our excess, not insurance, but can be used instead of insurance and twenty twenty one good erects user saved an average of seventy nine percent on retail prescription prices. Let's talk about hair color, everyone has a different routine But if you want to skip the salon into your head, Home Madison whoever salon quality results every time and unlike other hair color, it's full of ingredients that nourisher hair
what's amazing is that mass and red hair color doesn't smell and all the women in my life that have ever used. It love the results actually like the smell, and that's because doesn't have any ammonia caravans, p, p days or any of the bad stuff that makes you smell, like a chemical factory, get em all you free multi, dimensional, hair color, delivered to your door or book an appointment for a fast and fabulous hair color service. Madison Red Hair Color bar near you visit Madison Dash dot com. That's that's! and dash red dot com, and now generation. Why listeners get ten percent off plus free shipping use code Jen? Why that code again G in W H? Why. the so the next thing that happens in this in this cases I was sitting at home one day talking to a good friend of mine whose daughter had died in by because of a drunk driver, and she was tell me about how they were repairing her cross that they have next to where she had died.
I thought all: that's that's really nice that that there's across there, too people know that someone who mattered was loved asked away there in their loved ones are still grieving, and- and I just that sticking my mind and I thought okay. So these are all women. This detective is telling me that people didn't care about them. To start this feeling like ok, well, gonna, go pick process up for them and if nothing else, the back of my mind. I thought the person who killed these when may see these crosses and realize o crap. Someone remembers in an at point in time. I have to tell you just at no point in time. I ever think that I would know these women's names or that I would know the person who killed them that was not on my mind whatsoever? I was trying to find more information and when I realized situation. I just felt this. This feeling
ok, I can't do anything else. I'm just gonna go and put these crosses up, so I did I painted them read and I put the crosses up: it's a good deed in your trying give them remembrance, memorialize them and just show that they matter and one of the things happen that I didn't expect the very first, when I put up was just north of Knoxville Tennessee and one thing, that most of the people who are listening to this will never understand or never experience and hopefully, networks. I should say is when hammering in a wooden, on the side of the interstate, it echoes unbelievably so there are semis in cars just going down the road, but when you're done, the hammering of the of this cross into the ground at that meeting it sounded like ok like someone now knows in it.
A very calming experience. for myself. I have never really have a memory of parking on and on the side of the interstate. had gone there. I thought I was gonna, be very nervous because of you know possibly getting hit by a car or something that was not my mind whatsoever. When you heard the banks of the hammer hitting the crosses, realized that at least, if nothing else,. People will know that someone cared and one thing I did expect was people communities were singing these red crosses wondering why what in the world happened, who died there, Eventually, people start googling red crosses They were finding me on social media and stuff and asking questions about who do found there. I don't have a memory in recent. History of someone dying here. What's the story here, somebody say stuff like that does,
happen in our neighbourhood, but we don't even know what happens in our neighbourhood, for all small communities. I mean there is an interesting, going through them, but other than these are all small. Small towns are very tight, knit communities and I have to tell you also just in it doesn't- I think that I'm telling you has all transpired over the last five years I don't have a piece of paper that I'm reading a half of the I'm. Remembering being here talk is this person, In all honesty, a lot of the information I have for you is information that I got because I was in the right place at the right time talking to the right people gnats. Normally how cases are broke it sometimes it's just due diligence boots the ground. But then it's luck. Just pure LE year end of a few local news channels had seen the crossing contacted me in wanting to want to know more information
Suddenly some of these communities took notice and some of the news agencies took notice. And when that happened per really weird thing- happened this house teacher from Elizabeth in Tennessee emails me. and his email said: hi Shane, I'm Alex or from Elizabeth and high school. my sociology class this semester. We are true to think outside the box. We notice that there is a Jane DOE in our community, start looking up information about her. We linked her too this series of women, known as the red, had murders and we saw that you are the only one doing anything you're the only one per publishing anything talking about the case Would you be willing to talk to me about this to the weekend, taught my students to see if they can do what they can come up with further the gene found in their community. The one little
apple thrown into the pond, and now you have a ripple effect right. I responded in those like Alex went a good for me to come. He does, of course, like at the outset that point, I'm the only one doing this, I'm the only one driving I'm the only one going to these places. And suddenly there someone else who like? What can we do to help you know so I drive there it first to have If you are from Eastern Tennessee, you have the best accident in the world. I love it new the moment that I crossed into the south, because I stopped to get something to drink and I ordered sweetie and the lady. Responded and she said: ok, honey. You wanna mediums, wait. I owe you, but anyway so Alex. I met him. Many students in students were asking me all these questions and it was Interesting because when I
there age, juniors and seniors in high school. I was homeless and my per se Sure of me. At that time I was the nor type I was into books. I do not talk to people, so to see these students that to know so much information and want to know how they can help and what they can do, It was just something that was very surprising, and even this day. When I talk about it, no most of these it's now are in college, and it's just unbelievable to me that there were these high school students. One find out do this woman was knowing that she was like we, a sex workers at a truck stop by is, when I realize that, time that were in now, I think it's a little more acceptable, We have a better understanding that these that these people are people and what their professional. What they're doing too
five doesnt to find them doesn't diminish their value. at tat moment I was like okay, so this is a great thing and maybe now more people war will hear about. That's because May this high school class wants to help. So I've been to the school a handful of times. Now, in the past started working with an FBI profile out yeah this teacher, I'm telling you is the real deal. Is an amazing teacher. I wish I had this teacher, when I was in high school right? That's it. Every time I go there in these students would show me what they ve been working on and what they found, and it was a huge, collaboration effort I, which information being on the road and talking to people with them. They would tell me what they ve been able to find when talk about. Outsourcing here. This is right
Just imagine those students going home to have their parents sign this permission. Slap have to investigate this this court case, but it was really cool to become as in my mind, I had already narrowed down to six victims who were likely killed by the same person independently. These students also narrowed it down to those six people who they believed were killed. The same person I was like so we're onto something working with the up your profile of the students, came up with an eight page profile of the serial killer, I had known, person was likely trucker at the time a part of the profile why that they believe that this person was a truck or at the time, but- More than that He believed that this person, I specifically guy, into talking at a time when, The laws in the United States got a little
bit more lenient for truck drivers in the earth Eightys. There was a law passed the deceased directions on tracking. So suddenly, in the early eighties, all these mom and pop truck places start opening up. So there was a lot of independent truck companies to small, maybe one or two tracks, maybe three or four. So the students Your wise that this person likely just became a talker that allowed him the opportunity to kill these women. the things that we know is that each of the women were found on the side of a major interstate, and so the Hurry goes. Is that this being a tree but it would allow him to take the crime scene with him, because all these women are being strangled so he's able to pick them up, able to bring them to a second location or why bringing the crime scene with them. How perfect, as that and then he's able to, them on the side of interstates, where he can still get struck. I had not thought about that. I hadn't
thought about. I did not know about this law that was brilliant on their part and I drive cross country all the time and there's always truckers is parked where her cause, they're sleeping or checking out there. There trailer equipment, it's not out of place to see a trucker pulled over yeah. No one thinks another thing that the students were able to come up with in their profile is that this purse was specifically targeting in the world heads he was specific we targeting women who were prosecutor truck stops. It's all part of their belief was that he was speaking, because targeting these women, because he had this feeling like he had kill these women, because they were doing wrong in a part of that also goes to specifically some of the ways that these women were murdered. Each of them were we're being strangled by hand when youth physically string or someone with your hands. It takes, long time for them to die. It is
very powerful thing to do, of course, but it is too a long time, several minutes. Typically, you have to sit there just manually strangled them, it's not like pulling a trigger. Not like stabbing. It's not a quick death, the murder has to be dedicated to this, so it seem like He had does motivation the he needed them dead and that's very strange very behavior, also for the magician of the women. There was no evidence of sexual assault these are women who most of them were found nude. If they found wearing anything at all might have been a soccer, something so yeah. So so Thinking about all those details, it just seemed like this person was really out too to target these specific women. Young red women. It was very odd so that the eight page profile,
a lot of really good things are one of the other they re able to do with the profile or was seen of occasions, that the six women were in knowing that person is likely trucker. Where were they? working out of and so They came up with. Is that this person was likely trucking out of talks Tennessee, so one of the women is found just north of Knoxville and that woman who is also that the person who was the first cross that I put up, she was known as the Campbell County, gender, specific clearly, when I start sharing facebook posts and other things about these women and asking the public for help. As I got, this rule the interesting message on Facebook, wonder it was fun. This lady from India I was saying, hey, shame my Mr went missing in the early eighties. No one has ever. from her weave
if that she had been trafficked, she was a red head and its power for that one of these women that you're trying to identify could be my sister. So, a huge conversation with her, and I ask you know why, reported missing, and can I knew that these women- Dna was entered into the nameless database, so a part of having that knowledge is that wherever these people with Sing from there miss person case was not entered into numerous and chicken your picture half of her and I sat there. Data for a long time- and there is an art- drawing of the Campbell County, Jane DOE,. When you look at what someone looks like compared to an artist. rendering of what of it. Looks like
at least in my experience there, never one hundred percent, so you kind of have to look at it and think. Okay. Well, maybe the ours eyes aren't just right cuz. It could still be her and that's why I did, and I looked at them and Ok, this really likely could be the Campo County, Jane DOE. I sent a contact form into the tv I letting them know. This is the sister. This is her. number she would like to hear from you. We believe that this could be her sister. That point in time I had also gotten some of the original police reports and notes from the original detectives. So I knew that when this, when this victor, found she had been wrapped up in like a sheet and it had been tied off with duct tape, and these are often written notes like from someone at the scene in it and they put that made me believe that on top of dna, was found on her
there were seamen found on her and I was- ok well, when they would have worked this case, they would not have been using dna so in mind email that I sent to them. I also splain that I have strong believes that could be dna on that blanket like if you still have that blanket. Please try. Extract dna, and gave them a contact information for someone who operates an emphatic way is how you can extract dna from objects and back then they still would to secrete or non secreted and blood type off of seamen, so they have it and if it still viable, if it's been kept on file, we can test for DNA now right So I sent it. Never heard anything back so the
that happens- is as I'm starting to do a little bit more digging a little bit more digging and suddenly the Kentucky state. Please contact me I gotta tell you when you're foam and yourself on suddenly rings. unknown number, but it says that it's the Kentucky state please. Had this moment like ok, I've been driving through Kentucky. Take it and do not know it. You know so I answer it, and it was a very nice gentlemen and he explained that there was a lady who saw of Facebook posts of this victim from Barbourville Kentucky. He said that this was a woman who she believed her niece was this women's daughter- So she was related to her through marriage, but it was her sister. I guess I'll be her sister in law, so she reported that Kentucky State please- and I was like
awesome. Have you already talk to this lady at the daughter in his life? no, not yet, but as we just appreciate that you were able to share this information and what we want but you know about this- and I was a slight due to has not like that's awesome, but they, let us know that I of course discover do the fit the many social media pose to the air was the sister, nor are they become packed them in the meat Lee the possible M daughter wasn't white comfortable talking to me. Phone rightfully. So I don't blame her and I said if you don't t know if you don't feel comfortable talking to just me. I can include someone who's, a good friend who can control on that and the lady was my good friend and one of the co host one of our citizens about wage Emma Hoskins, who
started the Netflix Documentary Series, the keepers and but I was like. Oh, I saw the four years I'll talk to you, guys so perfect, great great icebreaker, yeah yeah, so we all jumped on a zoom, coy believe it was so far because as soon as she gets on the zoom car boot, her bright red hair and I was like oh in my mind, I thought she looks a lot like this. Lady she's from Spindle North Carolina so she has a very thick accent, which is you know from someone who lives in northern Indiana? I love accents and she was very, very nice and- and she explained a story that her mom disappeared when she had just born in fact, her dad came one day and she a baby, an a newborn was just laying all alone: fine, whenever saw her mom, no one
had ever seen, seen her again and it wasn't it her. It was being around and saw that image that she now realise that maybe this is her mom and maybe her mom was murdered It's always. This thought in her mind that her mom is out there somewhere, but she also at this thought in her mind, her Mamma abandoned her, which imagine, for you Can I mean? No? No I'm I mean then later realizing that put your mom might have been murdered like shortly after She went missing so like you were abandoned, but but having all that animosity built up and then having it flip the guilt and sorrow Right exactly- and so I am I said realizing. This is likely her mom, and I also knew so. One of the pictures I sent you Justin is a picture from when I was at the original detectives house. He had all this information. He also
of the original evidence which aside no That's a little weird detectives will have that anyway, it in their work Necklaces found on this victim and they one of them is and was a heart shaped object, the other one was an eagle and flight. Looking like it was about to attack, and I was I got a really weird necklace to have I thinking that we saw the image. So I Answering her. I was like some do. You know like what type of jewelry, your mom war, and she was like well. I asked my brothers that, and they told you that one of the objects that she wore law, one of the necklaces was a heart Nicholas that my brother got her believers for her birthday and I'll say? Ok, that's interesting in my head, I'm thinkin! Ok back that checks, a box and the the question I was like was there any other types of jewelry that you can imagine are having and yes
is another thing. Isn't it going to celebrate, though- and I okay, so she told me that brother had broken it. high school at some point instead, all this necklace and it was the massacre of the high school and I was like- will boost the high school. What was the mascot? She said there was an evil flying like this is her mom by? What are the chances? This is definitely her. Mom take moment get word from our sponsor. If you me, you probably have a morning routine, get up a life and a few work from home. Rolling out of bed and logging into a computer right away, probably isn't gonna help you wake up and be focused. So what do we do? We load up on caffeine, makes us all jittery and then we crash just a few hours later. While I replaced coffee with magic, mind magic, mind was created, taken daily first her mind steady,
gee, it even supports your immune system has much to give you the energy adapt agenda to help you relax. You tropics, that's where the magic. in and honey to make you happy its honestly, help me with my procrastination. My brain fog morning fatigue all the things that come. at least for me, working from home. There completely carbon neutral there made America and fuel me, then you need to get a lot of things done and the shortest amount of time go to magic, mind I co signed. Jen. Why and use the discount code Jen why to get twenty percent off today magic mind is best choice when it comes to getting things done unless time through the power of the new tropics inside that's magic, mine, Am I envy Dachau, Flash gin? Why so this what thing came out in the more that we talk to the more answers we got her mom believe her mom had experienced, postpone depression,
suddenly laughed her mom had been arrested before for being sex workers at a truck stop, and I think that tell her. Mom came into contact with this predator. This man, Then of course her mom never meet a back home. I was able down- and I will who saw the woman in the area before she was murdered, in the eye, witness, was working as a manager had a truck stop in Corbett, Kentucky the guy told me that he saw this woman come in. She had this bag, she assumed her belongings in it ass. She sat down the table and this man came over and whispered in her ear. He laughed out the back door to go towards that talks and he realized that oh he's, probably true to pay for a SEC. Worker. So he
I was gonna stop this, so he goes towards the back door from the kitchen trying to intercept her and ass. He, the back door, he realizes that she's not there and he walked back in and at that time he was looking through the front door and sees her getting into this means truck, and it was a red truck with a flat knows on it. someone who saw a lot of trucks. He gave me a lot. Details that I couldn't share with you just because I don't know much about trucks. I asked the most like what what makes the stick out your mind spent many years later. What makes you remember what the truck look like by he was wearing what she was wearing. He said why the next day she was found in a fridge dead course. I remember that like did you report it yeah? I did. Ben One person came to talk to him and he had never heard anything after that. So that was ok, so now I know what this man looks like and I
what the meanest wearing and I know what to do he's driving I have these students who gave me this profile of what this man is, is likely where he's from is likely working as a truck or out of Knoxville like ok about why his neck like I've, already look all the unsolved, Jane, DOE cases the women were only were found within a true to three year period, so he said my stopped for some reason in the students theorized in their profile that key either became enable You are physically go through with this type of crime. Your boss change to where he had to have someone with him in the truck at all times and that took away his offer Kennedy, nor is locations would be tracked everywhere or Maybe he arm
passed away was another theory they had. You went to jail for something yeah- and so I thought well, maybe he did go to jail for something. This has been the ultimate question when it came to them Dennis Raider and the Golden State Keller. So many people that just stop and you think what will happen. Why did they stop? I'm glad you. That is because, at that time, the golden state pillar. I believe that the one you have to correct me if I'm wrong Tustin he had just been identified in so so the next time I went to the school, I was talking with students and we are like ok, we need to the media more involved in this. We need to get more people to hear about this. Help us identify the rest of these women made that point I likely new to two of them were. We knew who of them wise, but we still had Jane doze while school the news broke, but that serial killer had been identified so
Myself and the students were like, but let's give him a name up until this why the women were known as the redhead murders as a whole, but that didn't give the purse who did a name in Salzburg, to give him a name. What's what call him something that way we can become focused on try to find him? so the students during one other class actions, came up bunch of names and all these names upon the board- and they allowed me to which one I felt like sounded. best, so we named him the Bible belt strangler, specifically has he were strangling people with in the Bible belt of south giving him a name suddenly, whether things I feel it most people wouldn't know, especially me at that time is up. When someone has a name. There is a suddenly this physical thing that you component piece of paper that you're going after, sooner yes, yes, in up to that point,
you know. Most of the women didn't have a name. They were just known as Jane DOE in the county. They were found in but we didn't have anything to describe the person who is doing it, so the dunes, arranged a press conference at Elizabeth Tennessee High School, we invite. All the media from all the areas where these women were found, they invited all the original detectives to come out in the current detectives from that area. And we also ask the tv I if they would like to join us specifically We wanted the tv I the law in force. But over the entire case we to be able to give these media places some type of source where people with information can contact them, because we, students podcast or we do not want people calling us. We. We can't make an arrest We cannot run DNA, so we thought about
course of action would be that these tips go to the responsible party, which was TB, are so the students and the teacher Alex Campbell decide. that they would try contacting the tv I again too Try to ask them if they could have some type of number email, something to put together and we also invited them to the press conference. They are denied the request They did not want to be involved, and then we had problem because suddenly there is a pot castra from Indiana, and there are these high school students who are going to be putting together this press conference or tips, but how we going to get those tips and how and we get those to the responsible party who can do something about the steps, so the teacher had this this conversation with that he be I'm saying Ok! Well, if you guys are here, we're gonna, have to tell these these media places that they're gonna have to contact a high school.
Don't know, that's going go over well and you gotta get stuff to become a call centre to take tips like this is not right. The tv. I realised that it could be a pr issue, so they allowed for us to give a contact, number or email address for tips. So during the press conference which it out on Youtube. I go there and I spoke at length about going to the locations where all these women were found. How this has developed into this press conference were were asking people to all The TB are it. It was Suddenly it was so weird because suddenly you had all these camera facing you. You had all these MIKE's upon you in your talk. about the women in your talking about this case. the entire time. I'm thinking, I'm just a part, castor from Northern Indiana head. This all happened. my cousin new,
but Jane DOE in her area is farm. I want to look into it a very weird experience, so that the press conference help tremendously gained a lot of attention, a lot of tips and calls it shortly after the press conference, the tv I made a another press conference for themselves. and they announced that they were able to confirm that the woman I put them in touch with was the sister to the victim found north of Knoxville became more county. Jane DOE was in fact Tina my from Indianapolis, and That was a moment that I remember when I I think I got a text the sister and I was just dumbfounded. Like suddenly what I said: to do helped identified this person. It was just an unbelievable moment. I it's hard for me to describe to
right now. I have nothing but passed. things to say about Tina Farmers family. I went to ending up was met with them, their amazing people Tina farmer was reported missing, but because she had a history of being a sex workers at a truck. They seemingly just did not. While the missing person case, sir unfortunately, that's what led to her being unidentified for so long. The moment that my tip then they were able to get with the Indianapolis a police department and they had interact, words that they were able to compare and that's how they confirm that this was her and then- shortly after that, the delay, from North Carolina, who we thought could be the daughter of Jane, DOE found and Barbara your Kentucky, and she said, that's my mom, That was another moment where you're just thinking, ok
now. Another Jane DOE has a name. Her name is Sb Regina Black and I just kept thinking okay, this is our great, There are still three more Jane those and I just thought: ok, let's keep the momentum going, but you get someone else identified in then it's weird thing happened that I cannot say I had any part of where this woman, named: Elizabeth Lamont, it was from New Hampshire. Her family had been contact with her since the eighties for a very long time and I believe the local police. coming was trying to find out if this lady was a victim that they had up there in that area and so they ran whore her dna. They were able to obtain it from her brother and when they re her dna, they realised through the night. state a base that this is the change the sound and Greenville Tennessee, which
the county that the high school students were in so suddenly Elizabeth Lamont was another name that we had. He say you don't feel. like you are responsible for this, but that First Red Cross you hammered into the ground is kind of response. Rather than the I guess, a similar. I am, I guess, response billowy is not something that I've ever cared I guess I've just been true. To my mind, my next thought, like my thought right now is there are still too during those we need to find out who they are The next thing that happens is, I start thinking that maybe the skies in prison or maybe went to prison for a period of time and then when he got back, He was no longer able to physically do this. Now but he is like we from the Knoxville area, at least that's where his tracking is based. Out of. I start look four,
female looked like a could be related, like he has a series of things that he does to his victims was leaving the match that could we, to believe that this could be the guy and what is happening with. I found this this victim who survived her tag Her name is Linda Shack. I believe us pronounce your last name and shortly after re almost run after Tina farmers frowned and again Tina farmers. I'm just north of Knoxville in Knoxville, Linda and met this man at a stroke club and went back to the tell with him and his brother, and this weird series of events played out, but at Last- and to embrace her on the side of the interstate and trying to strangle her in fact, she passes out. He believed, he's dead. You leave
steals her. Car leaves- and I just thought there's a lot of similarities here in terms of like that, of work. She was in. She was already I mean she looked just like these other women that same age in this and a Knoxville which is where we are. leave the skies based out of now. He was dead, your vehicle, specifically that he stole from her, but in the police reports I found that he was a trucker. He owned, a small trucking company. Can I was like ok, this is interesting. What more can I find, and so I kept digging so I to Nashville in the archives to look up this court case One of the pictures I sent you just in is of a t shirt the white teeth search that sometimes men were underneath shirts and that t shirt had been pulled apart, and he used to strangle her. You use that as a ligature, essentially yes and
it was in one of the boxes. So gloves that you see in the picture is me they. Let me handle all the stuff, so this picture this man and the net picture I looked out, was of his truck and it a red flag, no struck exactly how the eye witness explain to me the truck look like. this really could be him, and I thinking to myself. I know there is some type of dna lips found wanting a farmer habit. Was this consuming your life at that moment a lot you can ask my now wife, Much time I mean. But this was a long period of time. I mean it's been five years, at least since I had started and I've been
every location many times many many times, including the high school, but like every time you fine, like the necklace or another family, comes forward or this witness your like. I have one more piece of this puzzle and I have to complete this puzzle in that's exactly how it was, but I was so devoted because I felt like there was an injustice here. I felt like I guess what detectives early on toward me that one of the things that hurt these women in terms keeping them in the media and keeping them as a priority for detectives who they were those and they didn't. Family members calling and knocking and saying, hey where's this case out in, and I think the during this entire time. Not only was self in these students in his teacher trying to find this information, but we suddenly had people contacting us because they re
learned about it. They think that their loved one might be involved. I think we probably had at least fifty people email or contact us through social media they believe that their ex husband did it in so you have like you. We are following every lead: lotta, crappy husbands, other yeah, yeah, I mean an eye. There was one and almost others tell you this one story, as it was crazy. So here in my town of Wabash Indiana, we have one of the largest fund raising chile competitions. Where we are shall we do this big fundraiser so of the events, I am making Chile a huge event does all these people you can hear very well, while suddenly woman contacts me or Facebook. She says, I'm in Kentucky my Ex husband, is not letting me leave the home. There are cameras. I think he is the main research the boy. I can't contact anyone
as a he won't. Let me leave the house and I thought oh gee, so suddenly I had a funk. I had to call the Kentucky state. Please like that's what you do when someone says that so I got her, dress there. I am I was hunkered down, in a long share, with my coat covering me in October, trying to call the Kentucky state and explain to them what's going on and it was very weird conversation. I know that the personal limas like like who a sky- and why is he surrounded by all these people? You is very weird atmosphere and you just try to call on a welfare check yeah. They were keeping Me in the loop, he would call me backing by ok, we're on our way to our house, and I honour think that occurs saved your life like it was a master situation they get to the house and he had just left. Thankfully, the door was locked from inside and outside, so he had the only key to it there all these sick,
cameras up, she was being forced. be there, it was crazy. They were able Get her to safety gear her place to stay at and they were able to arrest him so just one of those things that was a side effect of this whole thing. Here we were returning every stone at this point, but as it turns out. He wasn't responsible for all these murders. He just was. He was just some random guy yeah, so going back, this man going all this information from this case, and I thought this guy really seems like he could be the one. problem was when found that out. He had just died in prison and I thought okay so he's gone. I can't contact him as I would have take contacting him The only hope now is it there's dna somewhere, and we have six victims, surely we can find in it, so go back to my message to the tv I and
to tell you and each of my message to them. It is like outline and spell checked notes phone numbers by all this stuff. I kept sending them hoping some one was there listening, it wasn't just being deleted. I kind of had high hopes because when Tina Farmer was was identified, I was like ok someone's listening, so I in a huge step with all, information? And I explained why I think this, I did it and in another instance, why really felt like he was the one was because, and Elizabeth one mops found and Green DOT Tennessee. there was a hard found with and it may have been like up but the old anxious that come with a business card. You know I'm talking about here, but I had the name, This bar- and I was like that's weird- but I know that this man was originally from Texas in here.
ten to Knoxville and he was doing this trucking business have knocked over. He was also going back home to taxes to visit family members, so I tracked where his family members had lived in Texas sure enough, the very bar that that match the card was from it's just down the street from his parents house like this hast like this has to be him So I said the tap into the TB are, and I talk to another written detective and taught him all this wasn't in. He agree with me. This is likely the guy well one leads to another tv I was able to find a dna on Tina farmer. They compared it too this man and was able to confirm this- is him he is the then who definitely killed Tina Farmer and he is the person attempted to kill. Linda went a shack, so I was like ok
now I know who did it. I know that he likely the rest of these women, but this time the stone my head, why? Why did he do this work? was he targeting specific looking women as well, so is able to, crack down his ex wife. They were married at the time that he had been convicted for, attempted murder of Linda, so I tracked her down You know how large I am so imagine me knocking on the door. I don't wanna talk about your ex husband, the The media is now talking about because they confirm the he killed us other woman, she's like a man, I don't know if I would open the door to you. Now I promise we would not. If I saw some that boat like me, I'll call the police especially in a small town, but so she was an amazing person who had aren't you a lot of things and one of them
I asked her was: did she believed that he could have killed these other women and she sighed, probably, and so she didn't know anything about the other cases. She only had known about Tina Farmer because it was just released and she knew, of course, that he had attempted to kill Linda start showing her photos of these other victims. And immediately she goes that was like me like me too. I was like me I thought you know she has red hair, that's odd, that he would be killing people kind of look like his wife, the more that I talked to her the more I started to realize what happened. So is wife told me that they met, because He was in the army or the Marines Cambridge one, and he asked he fled came home, he was. He went AWOL em when
him home, he was neighbours with her family, her dad mom. They knew the Thea the army, was gonna, come looking for him ass. He was a war snail him too sleep in their attic So this was this was happening. I believe he was like nineteen or twenty. She told that she had just turn twelve? When he's staying there, then, She goes on and says that that is when they started falling in love this of course, what she's telling me and it doesn't. escaped my mind, but listeners would have recognised the he's. Nineteen, oh she's, twelve! Barely that's not acceptable. And she suddenly learn that she was pregnant and so They did. Was they go to tell her dad in her dad says where you're going. have to get rid of it and there like one Why would we do that He says because your siblings and when he says that
he worms that his mom had an affair with her dad. This was his real bad soil. you're asking questions about what did he say? having hatred towards his mouth for that she's like oh yeah. His moms name is Lucy The Lucy was a sex worker and suddenly he heard a lotta hatred towards her as active. A picture of his mom she saw me a picture of his mom and I can make this up. The church. She shows me she, a lot like his now ex wife and they both looked a lot like these victims. So I think that We had something to do with it. I also knows that he started killing these women when he had start, opening up his tracking company. So suddenly he was allowed to be gone for a long period of time
I asked her another question. I said it seem like he was specifically going after a specific person truck stops. Do you know of any in any scenario that he would have referred to these women are something other than human beings. You know was their hatred towards them You told me the story about how she went with him on one of his trucking sprays and he pointed out to her are women who were working in the truck stops and he was referring to them as basic. animals I mean just using warble language. and she realised that yet like yeah. Soon he either not like these people. He thought that they were in a less land people, so that cemented in my mind that he has to be responsible for the others and as of today, when I'm talking to you he's only. Found by agreeing jury to be responsible for teen, a farmer
the other five women he has ever been found responsible for so until that happens, I'm still thinking that we still need to other more work here because Why do we have two more Jane doze? We need to get a grand jury to say yeah. He also is responsible for this woman's death. That's important to me because until then, these are court cases and we me too, to make him but we can't. You know, of course, bring him to court and not be found guilty, but what they did an antenna, farmers cases they went to a grand jury presented. The evidence in the grand jury said. Yes, we would indict M based on this nation That's really what I would like to see happen. We have two more marching. Doze to identify for but Lamont against. its founding Greenville Tennessee she's from New Hampshire in her case, civic I've I've spoken to her brother. He shares
with me that there is this problem because detectives from new I am sure who are in charge of her missing person case. They were but the FBI I be involved, because the F B, I would have much more resources than that maybe I, but they have been I cannot step in unless the he be. I ask them to bureaucracy. How which is weird to me, because this man was bringing these women prostate lines like in my mind, that should be enough that the F B, I should like a work taken this over. It's not like, The tv shows where the FBI shows up and they were taken over now. Now it's right is not as simple as that. So that would be my hope at some point I we hope that the tv I will ask the FBI to be involved, not because I feel like their neglecting. The case because I don't. I don't want to pass blame or point fingers, but
gets no secret, that the F B, I will have more resources and more reach. What has been happening up until this point hasn't worked. So. I have no doubt the f b. I would be able to help very least bring more attention to the case in that this kind of where the cases now just last week, I had a phone call conversation with teacher Alex, which is what I call a teacher Alex EM China brainstorm ideas on how to try to help these detectives get the FBI involved, and I can't force anyone to do anything, but hopefully we can find way to ask me Lastly, I guess is the best her best. we have in its context, to me to this date, but I am this part stir, and I consider myself a nobody that and that these people are still contacting me just two weeks ago. The original
and that was found who was identified. Lisa Nicholls her niece contacted me and I just thought when I saw her email. I was like another person like for all the people who have been identified. I've spoken to their loved ones, and I didn't I didn't put the crosses up For this reason, I decided on my mind at all. I guess, but each time both to one of these victims, families. They would start following along with what I was doing, and they were told me how much a means to them to go to the location where their sister mother was found, and be across their for them already. and just to know that someone went out of their way from a different state just to put that up for them That meant a lot to them to feel like someone still here after all that time, and I will be the first want to tell you that I feel in this.
going into this. I started refrain my sister's just because I felt like suddenly had an iron and the fire like I had to get these women identified. Some one had a stick up for them. Someone to bring this to the attention of people and I hope That's something that your listeners will take away from. This is theirs. Good messaging about this entire thing, but I hope that will help other people, One of the things is that no more where you are in life you matter, and I hope that if, if you need help, you get help ask for help there are resources out there. If you need help, I wish as a homeless high school student. I would have known that there were places and people who I could have gone too for help. In my mind, at the time I had to be someone who was that I was related to them. If I could ask for how like no one else scared, I thought, but that's not.
case and in their is help out there, and I hope that that is the ultimate message that people will get from. Listening to this, I wrote thing down. While you are speaking heroes, never feel heroic, and that's I want you to know why. I appreciate that without you, nothing would have happened here, it's a its own and try not to cry Justin its. I guess through this whole thing I want people to start looking and their neighbourhood at any situation that might have happened where they, have something similar happen of suffering the If, if you are less no help there, while you take a minute, you know you're into true Prime take a minute to find out. How many Jean doze or in your county and when you are looking at that.
well if there is any way that you could help those people be identified, in what you might find is that these are people. Have no name had a name somewhere. If more. People will go out their way too. For the unnamed. I think that that will do the entire world a huge favor. never miss an episode of generation. Why subscribed to us on Apple podcast, Spotify, Cast box or reverie listening right now? Also he sure to follow us on social media. Our tik Tok is at GEN Pod are in g? Is it generation why podcast join wondering plus in the wondering, app to listen ad free,
do you want to catch alive. Taping, a generation Y now's, your chance in partnership with embassy Our listeners can attend an exclusive screening of the new law, it series the thing about pan plus recording of the podcast serious stars to Time Academy Award winner or Naser Judy, Greer and Josh Demo and is based on the riveting story of one of them. a compelling true crime, sagas ever told on Dateline it's about a straightforward murder case, That takes a series of chilling unexpected twists and turns exposing one woman's, manipulative and diabolical scheme come join us as we watch a sneak peak of the thing about PAM and unpack the details of this unbelievable case March, seven at the noise house, in LOS Angeles, go to the thing about PAM screening dot com to RSVP for the event that, the thing about: PAM screening, dot, com.
Transcript generated on 2022-03-07.