On this episode, Justin is joined by Shane Waters of the FoulPlay podcast to discuss a serial killer case he was involved in. In 2016, Shane had placed a red cross at the site where the body of a Jane Doe victim was found in Arkansas in 1984. This small act led Shane down a path of investigation, intrigue, and assistance from an unexpected source. Shane was able to discover the identity of the murdered victim and was able to connect additional victims to the investigation. Sometimes we don't realize how one small act of kindness will affect the world around us.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joint, wondering plus in the wondering app from wondering
doing tonight chain.
I'm doing gonna. How are you just it yeah,
I had a rough night sleeping, so this morning's kind of a rebel and Ritalin kind of mourning better, I'm doing good
you say morning it's two p m eastern tat, ass, you how you doing tonight. You know it's all smoke and mirrors man.
Let's not wide? Anyone you just woke up, I understand so as
most of the listeners are hearing a different voice. Besides Erin
Shane is a pot castor that has a wonderful.
I guess you should all listen to and I don't want to take a thunder Shane so go ahead and introduce yourself
yeah, so my part causes called foul play
also the pod castor of hometown history, and when did you start those start foul play
twenty fourteen hometown
history was started in twenty six terribly enough,
summary of both? Yes, I foul play. Typically,
listeners are hearing some serious that I've put together based on an investigation of some kind hometown,
history is history that you probably are unaware of Africa.
towns across the United States. I love it here and
You remember when we first met,
I would assume attack crime cohesion problem
Indianapolis? I remember having a picture taken us both do remember that yeah, but I
I just remember we were walking side by side and I looked up at you there's very few people on
world that I look up at because I am a six point three and I,
I'm sure I made some snark ridiculous comment about your size and height B. I saw I am I'm six foot nine and, as my friends will all tell you, I could be heard
for Halloween. We must
it's a very rare occasion run like, while I feel short,
however, I will say that that's why
thing, though, is an interesting. I am, I think, to bring up
has going into the crime world, especially someone who does a lot of interviews in person with people
I've always been aware of I'm a very large person and to go speak with people who may be they ve
they ve gone to a lot of things and they may not be as
comfortable with especially men
this is something I have always had the mind on how to make people feel more comfortable. It can help
have dimples. There's someone smile, you see them and I feel like that's like the biggest the biggest thing.
Going for me. I got us any
a calming voice too? Oh god. Thank you doctor
that helped me alive during my the phone
days. I guess I don't know who thank you for calling. How can I help you so?
talked a lot over the years, and I know
little bit about some of the cases you ve covered. But tonight you wanted to talk about a case. Have you
shared this before lake publicly.
I've shared some details because I try to use social media impact podcasting as a way to try to gain more information and when
start telling you about this case. You will realize how I kind of used in as a tool
but it was away the bike again
information, and I was
being stone walled a lot by a lot of people who you would really be surprised about us ignorant, podcast us,
no we're doing right. That's that's the thing being
old by law enforcement. Oh you must be the podcast repeat that as
dirty word, you know, and now in a lotta, Netflix series and stuff, you you see and in all kinds of little documentaries and stuff, this crime podcast with pop up,
and there always you know, a nosey person who is always what
for that got moment, which I mean I'm not not for that.
Not for the gotcha moments, I guess, but I did see
Lee cheer during the Avenue Holloway movie, when Michael Myers killed the pod casters of light tat, it had deserved it. Have you seen the new season of doktor yeah there's a pod,
started and ass soon ass, she showed up. I was like oh they're gonna make our podcast her and she
he did an interview and she talked about her influences and she said she list.
two degeneration. Why? Oh railway, that's cool, headed and realise that very flattering. There.
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had a, I don't know an accidental conversation the other day and you asked if you could come on in
story about how you helped the
these were solved. The case and your journey
that and I thought it sounded
Emily interesting and I'm excited to hear what you have to say, though we can just jump right and if you want ok
That sounds good and
just so that everyone is aware. You dont know about the case. Some about tell you so now. This is common,
a cold right, yeah, everything's, fine, so
this is a case that, I guess
start I'll- have to tell you that
around the United States, there are six red crosses specific
they are in West Memphis Arkansas. There are three in
see there is one in Kentucky and theirs.
in West Virginia in they,
tire story of how that happened started a boat.
say five years ago, when my cousin, you know being
true prime person that I am my cousin, who was in Kentucky called me in
she was like king theirs. They are a Jane DOE from here. I don't know
looked into that, but there is
a gravestone budget says Jane DOE, that's all I know about it. You should come here and
So what are you can find? So as any good?
Castro say: ok, lessons, fun, intriguing, yeah, yeah yeah, so special,
I'm talking about barber well, whereas the locals call it Barville bar work and
I'm from northern in Vienna. So I get to barber and
I see the stone and it's a very plain.
Terry on top of this hill at a very secluded. I thought I was gonna get shot driving to it. It was very scary, and then I saw
ok, I gotta find out. You know, I'm always looking for good mystery. Just for myself. No other reason: socio
when you find out like what was once a story.
On the stone suggest.
That she was found in the early nineties eighties.
they start doing a lot of digging in old newspaper articles, and I found
She indeed was murdered in the eighties. She
had been found in a fridge orator,
that was left in a play,
said the locals left junk. Like a dumping,
of sorts, that's all
fine about her
so I started doing a little bit more doing and I came
I was about how this detective thought that this
case was linked to a series of other murders
intriguing- I have never heard of this case and as a true friend,
Castro myself in a troop I'm fan,
unlike my wonder why I have not heard about this. Like sluggish, sounds like something that should be aware of, especially as it so close to home and a possible.
serial killer if there's multiple murders here,
yeah? I had a lot of questions. Why did someone
that all these were connected
Why was the case unsolved? Why were these still Jane DOE victims, the
who's that I found listed up to twelve different people that it that could be linked
So I realise that the cases per cent
are considered unsolved and they
all under the jurisdiction of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and from what I can gather
They were still the clearing house.
for all of the cases, because it was still likely that a serial killer was the person who killed all these women today.
were able to rule out. So I try to come
the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation of investigation about it that go well
that didn't over so well, so I sent an email, never heard back
start doing a little bit more digging, and I thought why
if there's even someone who's been assigned to this like it that it just seemed like there's nothing in the news. There's no new articles being written about theirs,
and I wonder why
was anyone aware that
cases even existed at this point, so I called in-
We got transfer all around the world. I may I get
lady and she's, like
ok, so I'm looking at the cases, yet it is still unsolved in its our court case team is ensured.
of the case I was I
Hey. Do you mind if I have like? I speak to someone you know if,
something I could do to help I'd like to do that. If you guys need help in sharing or trying to get these Jane toes identify like
help with sharing of that stuff and very rich
late she's like well. No thank you and if we
I need your help, will call you and I was like ok what
I get an email in case I run across something, but I feel like you guys, should know, and then I heard click
ok, ok, I can change
people in a react towards me. So that's fine, the abbot to me. It's ok,
back customer service and professionalism
I would have said: hey this,
under our jurisdiction. We have it assigned to a person and we don't usually or typically seek help from the public unless we ask so thank you but
move on your way, not just hang up on you,
right, I knew that they were going to tell me any information. I just more of wanted to find out if there,
an email or a number that I can call with tips. If I were able to find anything so the next,
that happens. Is I start looking in two of these victims anti.
to decide which ones could
I be linked to the. I could find more information about these people so out of about the fifteen
set the tv I was looking into.
I was able to narrow it down too likely six women.
they were murdered in similar ways
And so I was there okay, so these these women more.
we then not were murdered by the same person. I mean it. S was very damaging so that
women. Specifically only one of them had ever been identified. Her knee was LISA Nicholls. She was found in West Memphis Arkansas
all the other women were still up to that time. Jane doze and so youth
in Kentucky Tennessee and Arkansas. So this is a cross, multiple state to your end, West Virginia so I mean
we was like: okay, well, one of them's identified. I wonder if I can track down,
I'm way. You know any any details like that.
Because I know that Jane DOE cases typically there's not much, that you'll be able to find about them, especially because you don't know who they are, so you can't come up with a good temper
file on you know, like
the person was, how did they get there? Where were they from who? Did they come into contact with? What was their lifelike
information is available
to you when you are dealing with a Jane DOE case
so immediately. I saw that the least
Nicholls victim was the most
likely to give me information, so I tried
poor. All this information as much as I could. I called the local sheriffs department
the local sheriffs department? I explained
where this woman was found.
It was a long interstate as you are leaving Memphis into West Memphis and the sheriff buzz
I'm sorry, sir, we I do not have a victim from that area
from that time period. It all sounds like Bob
that's weird, because
I have all this information that says that she was found. There was a red be happy to give this to you in the in the guy. Was very very nice and he's like well
do some calling around and see what else I can find in.
A few days later, I heard back for a moment. There was an
older gentlemen there, who I
had retired at some point, but he came back and
he was around at the time when she was found
confirmed yeah, I was
the scene. We did have a victim from our patient, but they had misplaced file. It seemed
so. I had a really good conversation with him. Of course, this guy was an office way after she was found in so I dont place, but
Let them at all. You know, that's not what one I was blocked
the day I was trying to find more information about this person
use the information I gather from him along with any articles from that time. Here
of any interviews about LISA Nicholls,
she was found on the side of the inner state. I believe she didn't have any clothing on
she was a red head, very young, they estimate of her to be a younger than twin
years old and they
that she had had children at some point in her life
together, they knew a Jane DOE. Victim
I'm honestly not surprised that the first officer you spoke with didn't have any clue. What you're talking
And everyone just believes that they have this perfect database, were they
just type in a name, and everything comes up for them, but it's not like that.
and I think it's important for people to kind of level set their expectation on how long
Where's man from state to state is different
how they might not be able to just pull up a record of a murder victim just within sight.
Hence it just doesn't work that way, and he told me point blank if I hadn't told him about this, this person
but he would never have been looking too,
not any more information about her, so
when LISA was identified,
aid news, specifically in Memphis in Nashville, and
the time the attack
in charge of her case was untrue.
not to get all redhead on all red faced right now. This always upsets me, but the detect
was interviewed by the by the media
and in the interview
quoted as saying argue LISA Nicholls what we know about her, she had a bad drug problem and she was a prostitute. He says that
she'd stretched from the ceiling to the floor two times
to win the the media.
asked him. You know how bad did she have a drug problem. He said
Lisa Nicholls had a drug problem like my car has a gasoline problem and I just thought
why would you use this kind of language to the sky
someone who you're supposed to be trying to find out who killed her and that
I've got my mind going as ok. Shame this entire time, I'm trying to think why. Why did society and these detective
and the media forget about these women in this is the best idea that I can get,
the people who were in charge of solving the case
was using language to describe her like she was this other person
and I think that language helped those can
nowadays feel like me,
be this woman deserved it, but it was,
I believe that the time and I still hold the belief very
strongly. That because of that,
the type of language being used about not only LISA, but these other women I've I've, I just think,
society at that time, didn't care now most.
Hopefully realise that these are human beings with value, but the time I think that's what helped the cases be forgotten in throughout
next series of processes. I was able to track down the other original detectives that worked on all the other six cases.
of the main ones I had it
We had a meeting with him and I
him did. He feel like these
Six women were killed by the
in person in he said
I have no doubt then I said ok
So do you think that there are more than these six women, because at that time I had locked and all types of databases to try to see if there were any others, I could link any
jane- I have no doubt
other women, but you will never find them.
like my wife, they were murdered. You think he liked the body, so I couldn't find him and he said no,
because these women are throw ways and that term had
ever brought my ears before and saw was like ok well, what is the throwaway
any such Jane. A few are homeless. If you ve had a drug problem,
if you are Prossa two or if you are not white, your throw away p.
Well consider you as a throw away
More evidence of my mind on why these cases were quickly forgotten about and
Immediately when he told me that Justin
I know the we we ve talked few times and in
That you also d, don't know a whole lot about me. Besides
I'm, a very large person and I'm a podcast as Well Hall person right
but when he said that
immediately when he said the word homeless.
realize that I had more of an attachment to this case in these people, these women, because
at one point in my life, I was a throwaway person and to think about that
that, like society, you wouldn't have cared. If I
was murdered at that time and
to give you a little bit more detail about that. When I was in high school, I was abandoned. I became homeless to the point to where I was
staying overnight in the theater. Was it so that
has it may have been to quote outside I didn't
out of things that most
People will never have to do because they have
people on their lives. Who will look after them
no that their missing. Who know that if you're not
for dinner, someone's gonna be looking for you. I didn't have that because of that and going
to those experiences even today,
I have this
thing in my mind where things sometimes with other people
I'm transactional, because I
I'm always reminded that at
point in your life
and have all these relationships with people and you can talk to them, but
You really need help. You may not get it, and I did I didn't
help- and I didn't get help and so coming from that to hearing a detective
Tell me that these women were throw away
and no one cared.
In my mind, I thought okay. This is why I am so attached. I didn't twig until then, but from now
Point on, I was okay well of these women.
need someone to care about them here. I am take moment, get word from our sponsor
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the so the next thing that happens in this in this cases
I was sitting at home one day talking to a good friend of mine whose daughter had died in by because of a drunk driver, and she was
tell me about how they were repairing her cross that they have next to where she had died.
I thought all: that's that's really nice that that there's across there, too
people know that someone who mattered
asked away there in their loved ones are still grieving, and- and I just that
sticking my mind and I thought okay. So these are all women. This detective is telling me that people didn't care about them.
To start this feeling like ok, well, gonna, go pick process up for them and if nothing else,
the back of my mind. I thought the person who killed these when
may see these crosses and realize o crap. Someone remembers in an at
point in time. I have to tell you just at no point in time. I ever think that I would know these women's names or that I would know the person who killed them
that was not on my mind whatsoever? I was trying to find more information and when I realized
situation. I just felt this. This feeling
ok, I can't do anything else. I'm just gonna go and put these crosses up, so I did I painted them read and I put the crosses up: it's a good deed in your trying
give them remembrance, memorialize them and
just show that they matter and one of the things
happen that I didn't expect the very first, when I put up
was just north of Knoxville Tennessee and
one thing, that most of the people who are listening to this will never understand or never experience and hopefully, networks.
I should say is when
hammering in a wooden,
on the side of the interstate, it echoes unbelievably
so there are semis in cars just going down the road, but when you're done,
the hammering of the of this cross into the ground at that meeting
it sounded like ok
like someone now knows in it.
A very calming experience.
for myself. I have never really
have a memory of parking on and on the side of the interstate.
had gone there. I thought I was gonna, be very nervous because of you know possibly getting hit by a car or something
that was not my mind whatsoever. When you heard the banks of the hammer hitting the crosses,
realized that at least, if nothing else,.
People will know that someone cared and one thing I did
expect was people
communities were singing these red crosses
wondering why what in the world happened,
who died there,
Eventually, people start googling red crosses
finding me on social media and stuff and asking questions about who do
found there. I don't have a memory in recent.
History of someone dying here. What's the story here, somebody
say stuff like that does,
happen in our neighbourhood, but we don't even know what happens in our neighbourhood,
for all small communities. I mean there is an interesting,
going through them, but other than
these are all small. Small towns are very tight, knit communities
and I have to tell you also just in it doesn't-
I think that I'm telling you has all transpired over the last five years
I don't have a piece of paper that I'm reading a half of the I'm.
Remembering being here talk is this person,
In all honesty, a lot of the information I have for you is information that I got because I was in the right place at the right time talking to the right people gnats. Normally how cases are broke it sometimes it's
just due diligence boots
the ground. But then it's luck. Just pure LE year end
of a few local news channels had seen the crossing contacted me in wanting to want to know more information
Suddenly some of these communities took notice and some of the news agencies took notice.
And when that happened per really weird thing- happened this house
teacher from Elizabeth
in Tennessee emails me.
and his email said: hi Shane, I'm Alex
or from Elizabeth and high school.
my sociology class this semester. We are true
to think outside the box.
We notice that there is a Jane DOE in our community,
start looking up information about her. We linked her too
this series of women, known as the red, had murders and
we saw that you are the only one doing anything you're the only one per publishing anything talking about the case
Would you be willing to talk to me about this to the weekend, taught my students to see if they can do what they can come up with further the gene
found in their community. The one little
apple thrown into the pond, and now you have a ripple effect right.
I responded in those like Alex went a good
for me to come. He does, of course, like at the outset
that point, I'm the only one doing this, I'm the only one driving I'm the only one going to these places.
And suddenly there someone else who like? What can we do to help you know so I drive there it first to have
If you are from Eastern Tennessee, you have the best accident in the world. I love it
new the moment that I crossed into the south, because I
stopped to get something to drink and I ordered sweetie and the lady.
Responded and she said: ok, honey. You wanna mediums, wait. I owe you,
but anyway so Alex. I met him. Many students in
students were asking me all these questions and it was
Interesting because when I
there age, juniors and seniors in high school. I was homeless and my per se
Sure of me. At that time I was the nor type I was into books. I do not talk to people, so
to see these students that
to know so much information and
want to know how they can help and what they can do,
It was just something that was very surprising, and even
this day. When I talk about it, no most of these
it's now are in college, and it's just
unbelievable to me that there were these high school students. One
do this woman was knowing that she was like we, a sex workers at a truck stop by
is, when I realize that,
time that were in now, I think it's a little more acceptable,
We have a better understanding that these that these people are people and what
their professional. What they're doing too
five doesnt to find them
doesn't diminish their value.
at tat moment I was like okay, so this is a great thing
and maybe now more people war will hear about. That's because
May this high school class wants to help. So I've been to the school
a handful of times. Now, in the past
started working with an FBI profile out yeah
this teacher, I'm telling you is the real deal.
Is an amazing teacher. I wish I had
this teacher, when I was in high school right? That's it.
Every time I go there in these students would show me what they ve been working on and what they found, and it was a huge,
collaboration effort I, which
information being on the road and talking to people with them. They would tell me what they ve been able to find when talk about.
Outsourcing here. This is right
Just imagine those students going home to have their parents sign this permission. Slap have to investigate this this court case, but it was really cool to become
as in my mind, I had already narrowed down to six victims who were likely killed by the same person independently. These students
also narrowed it down to those six people who they believed were killed.
The same person I was like
so we're onto something
working with the up your profile of the students, came up with an eight page profile of the serial killer,
I had known,
person was likely trucker at the time a part of the profile why
that they believe that this person was a truck or at the time, but-
More than that
He believed that this person, I specifically guy,
into talking at a time when,
The laws in the United States got a little
bit more lenient for truck drivers in the earth
Eightys. There was a law passed the deceased
directions on tracking. So suddenly, in the early eighties, all these mom and pop truck places start opening up. So there was a lot of independent truck
companies to small, maybe one or two tracks, maybe three or four. So the students
Your wise that this person likely just became a talker
that allowed him the opportunity to kill these women.
the things that we know is that each of the women were found on the side of a major interstate, and so the
Hurry goes. Is that this being a tree
but it would allow him to take the crime scene with him, because all these women are being strangled so he's able to pick them up,
able to bring them to a second location or why
bringing the crime scene with them. How perfect, as that and then he's able to,
them on the side of interstates, where he can still get struck. I had not thought about that. I hadn't
thought about. I did not know about this law that was brilliant on their part and I drive cross country all the time and there's always truckers is parked where
her cause, they're sleeping or checking out there. There trailer equipment, it's not out of place to see a trucker pulled over yeah. No one thinks
another thing that the students were able to come up with in their profile is that this purse
was specifically targeting
in the world heads he was specific
we targeting women who were prosecutor truck stops. It's all part of their belief was that he was speaking,
because targeting these women, because he had this feeling like he had
kill these women, because they were doing wrong in a part of that also
goes to specifically some of the ways that these women were murdered. Each of them were
we're being strangled by hand when youth physically
string or someone with your hands. It takes,
long time for them to die. It is
very powerful thing to do, of course, but it is too
a long time, several minutes. Typically, you have to sit there
just manually strangled them, it's not like pulling a trigger.
Not like stabbing. It's not a quick death, the murder
has to be dedicated to this, so it seem like
He had does motivation the he needed them dead
and that's very strange very
also for the magician
of the women. There was no evidence of sexual assault these
are women who most of them were found nude. If they
found wearing anything at all might have been a soccer, something so yeah. So so
Thinking about all those details, it just seemed like this person was really out too to target these specific women. Young red
women. It was very odd so that the eight page profile,
a lot of really good things are one of the other
they re able to do with the profile or was seen of occasions, that the six women were in knowing that
person is likely trucker. Where were they?
working out of and so
They came up with. Is that this person was likely trucking out of
talks Tennessee, so one of the women is found just north of Knoxville and that woman
who is also that the person who was the first cross that I put up, she was known as the Campbell County, gender, specific
clearly, when I start sharing facebook posts and other things about these women and asking the public for help. As I got, this rule
the interesting message on Facebook, wonder it was fun.
This lady from India
I was saying, hey, shame my
Mr went missing in the early eighties. No one has ever.
from her weave
if that she had been trafficked, she was a red head and its power
for that one of these women that you're trying to identify could be my sister. So,
a huge conversation with her, and I ask you know why,
reported missing, and can I knew that
Dna was entered into the nameless database, so a part of
having that knowledge is that wherever these people with
Sing from there miss
person case was not entered into numerous and chicken
your picture half of her and I sat there.
Data for a long time- and there is an art-
drawing of the Campbell County, Jane DOE,.
When you look at what someone looks like compared to an artist.
rendering of what of it.
at least in my experience there, never one hundred percent, so you kind of have to look at it and think. Okay. Well, maybe the ours eyes aren't just right cuz. It could still be her and that's why I did, and I looked at them and
Ok, this really likely could be the Campo County, Jane DOE.
I sent a contact form into the tv I letting them know. This is the sister. This is her.
number she would like to hear from you. We believe that this could be her sister.
That point in time I had also gotten some of the original police reports and notes from the original detectives. So I knew that when this, when this victor,
found she had been wrapped up in like a sheet and it had been tied off with duct tape,
and these are often written notes like from someone at the scene in it
and they put
that made me believe that
on top of dna, was found on her
there were seamen found on her and I was-
ok well, when they would have worked this case, they would not have been using dna so in mind
email that I sent to them. I also
splain that I have strong believes that
could be dna on that blanket
like if you still have that blanket. Please try.
and gave them a contact information for someone who operates an emphatic way
is how you can extract dna from objects and back then they still would
to secrete or non secreted and blood type off of seamen, so they have it and if it still viable, if it's been kept on file, we can test for DNA now right
So I sent it. Never heard anything back so the
that happens- is as I'm starting to do a little bit more digging a little bit more digging and suddenly the Kentucky state. Please contact me
I gotta tell you when you're foam and yourself on suddenly rings.
unknown number, but it says that it's the Kentucky state please.
Had this moment like ok, I've been driving through Kentucky.
Take it and do not know it. You know so I
answer it, and it was a very nice gentlemen and he
explained that there was a lady who saw of Facebook posts of this victim from Barbourville Kentucky.
He said that this was a woman who she believed
her niece was this
So she was related to her through marriage, but it was her sister. I guess I'll be her sister in law, so she reported that Kentucky State
please- and I was like
awesome. Have you already talk to this lady at the daughter in his life?
no, not yet, but as we just
appreciate that you were able to share this information and what we want
but you know about this- and I was a slight due to has not like that's awesome,
but they, let us know that I of course discover
do the fit the many social media pose to the air was the sister, nor are they become
packed them in the meat
Lee the possible
M daughter wasn't white comfortable talking to me.
Phone rightfully. So I don't blame her and I said
if you don't t know if you don't feel comfortable talking to just me. I can include someone who's, a good friend who can control on that
and the lady was my good friend and one of the co host
one of our citizens about wage Emma Hoskins, who
started the Netflix Documentary Series, the keepers and
but I was like. Oh, I saw the
four years I'll talk to you, guys so perfect, great great icebreaker, yeah yeah, so
we all jumped on a zoom, coy believe it was so far
because as soon as she gets on the zoom car boot,
her bright red hair and I was like oh
in my mind, I thought she looks a lot like this. Lady she's from
Spindle North Carolina
so she has a very thick accent, which is you know from someone who lives in northern Indiana? I love accents and she was
very, very nice and- and she explained
a story that her mom disappeared when she had just
born in fact, her dad came
one day and she
a baby, an a newborn was just laying
all alone: fine,
whenever saw her mom, no one
had ever seen, seen her again and it wasn't it
her. It was
being around and saw that image that she now realise that maybe this
is her mom and maybe her mom was murdered
It's always. This thought in her mind that her mom is
out there somewhere, but she also
at this thought in her mind, her Mamma abandoned her, which
imagine, for you
Can I mean? No? No I'm I mean then later realizing that put your mom might have been murdered like shortly after
She went missing so like you were abandoned, but but having all that animosity built up and then having it flip the guilt and sorrow Right
exactly- and so I am I said
realizing. This is likely her mom, and I also knew so. One of the pictures I sent you Justin is a picture
from when I was at the original detectives house. He had all this information. He also
of the original evidence which aside no
That's a little weird detectives will have that anyway, it in their work
Necklaces found on this victim and they
one of them is and was a heart shaped object,
the other one was
an eagle and flight. Looking like it was about to attack, and I was I got a really weird necklace to have I
thinking that we saw the image. So I
Answering her. I was like some do. You know like what
type of jewelry, your mom war, and she was like well.
I asked my brothers that, and they told
you that one of the objects that she wore law, one of the necklaces was a heart
Nicholas that my
brother got her believers for her birthday and
I'll say? Ok, that's interesting in my head, I'm thinkin! Ok back that checks, a box and the
the question I was like was there any other types of jewelry that you can imagine are having and yes
is another thing. Isn't it
going to celebrate, though- and I okay, so she told me that
brother had broken it.
high school at some point instead,
all this necklace and it was
the massacre of the high school and I was like- will boost the high school. What was the mascot? She said
there was an evil flying like this is her mom
by? What are the chances? This is definitely her. Mom take moment get word from our sponsor. If you
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Am I envy Dachau, Flash gin? Why so this
what thing came out in the more that we talk to the more answers we got her mom
believe her mom had experienced, postpone depression,
suddenly laughed her mom had been arrested before for being
sex workers at a truck stop, and I think that
tell her. Mom came into contact with this predator. This man,
Then of course her mom never meet a back home. I was able
down- and I will
who saw the woman in the area before she was murdered,
in the eye, witness, was working as a manager had a truck stop in Corbett, Kentucky the guy
told me that he saw this woman come in. She had this bag, she assumed
her belongings in it ass. She sat down
the table and this man came over and whispered in her ear. He laughed out the back door to go towards that
talks and he realized that oh he's, probably true
to pay for a SEC.
Worker. So he
I was gonna stop this, so he goes towards the back door from the kitchen trying to intercept her and ass. He,
the back door, he realizes that she's not there and he walked back in and at that time he was looking through the front door
and sees her getting into this means truck,
and it was a red truck with a flat knows on it.
someone who saw a lot of trucks. He gave me a lot.
Details that I couldn't share with you just because I don't know much about trucks.
I asked the most like what what makes the stick out your mind
spent many years later. What makes you remember what the truck look like by he was wearing what she was wearing. He said why
the next day she was found in a fridge dead
course. I remember that like did you report it yeah? I did. Ben
One person came to talk to him and he had never heard anything after that. So that was
ok, so now I know what this man looks like and I
what the meanest wearing and I know what to do
I have these students who gave me this profile of what this man
is, is likely where he's from is likely working as a truck or out of Knoxville like ok about why
his neck like I've, already look
all the unsolved, Jane, DOE cases
the women were only were found within a true to three year period, so he said
my stopped for some reason
in the students theorized
in their profile that key either became enable
You are physically go through with this type of crime.
Your boss change to where he had to have someone with him in the truck at all times and that took away his offer
Kennedy, nor is locations would be tracked everywhere or
Maybe he arm
passed away was another theory they had. You went to jail for something
yeah- and so I thought well, maybe he did go to jail for something. This has been the ultimate question when it came to them
Dennis Raider and the Golden State Keller. So many people that just stop and you think what will happen. Why did they stop? I'm glad you.
That is because, at that time, the golden state pillar.
I believe that the one you have to correct me if I'm wrong Tustin he had just been identified in so
so the next time I went to the school, I was talking with students and we are like ok, we need to
the media more involved in this. We need to get more people to hear about this. Help us identify the rest of these women made that point
I likely new to two of them were. We knew who
of them wise, but we still had
Jane doze while
school the news broke, but that serial killer had been identified so
Myself and the students were like, but let's give him a name up until this
why the women were known as the redhead murders as a whole, but that didn't give the purse
who did a name in Salzburg,
to give him a name. What's what call him something that way we can become focused on try to find him?
so the students during one other class actions, came up
bunch of names and all these names upon the board- and they allowed me to
which one I felt like sounded.
best, so we named him the Bible belt strangler, specifically
has he were strangling people with in the Bible belt of south
giving him a name suddenly, whether things I feel it
most people wouldn't know, especially me at that time is up.
When someone has a name.
There is a suddenly this physical thing that you component piece of paper that you're going after,
sooner yes, yes, in up to that point,
you know. Most of the women didn't have a name. They were just known as Jane DOE in the county. They were found in
but we didn't have anything to describe the person who is doing it, so the
dunes, arranged a press conference at Elizabeth Tennessee High School,
we invite. All the media from all the areas where these women were found, they invited all the original detectives to come out in the current detectives from that area.
And we also ask the tv I if they would like to join us specifically
We wanted the tv I the law in force.
But over the entire case we
to be able to give these media places some type of source where people with information can contact them, because we,
students podcast or we do not want people calling us. We. We can't make an arrest
We cannot run DNA, so we thought about
course of action would be that these tips go to the responsible party, which was TB, are so the students and the teacher Alex Campbell decide.
that they would try contacting the tv I again too
Try to ask them if they could have some type of number email, something to put together
and we also invited them to the press conference. They are denied the request
They did not want to be involved, and then we had
problem because suddenly there is a pot castra from Indiana, and there are these high school students who are going to be putting together this press conference or tips, but how
we going to get those tips and how
and we get those to the responsible party who can do something about the steps, so the teacher
had this this conversation with that he be I'm saying
Ok! Well, if you guys are here, we're gonna, have to tell these these media places that they're gonna have to contact a high school.
Don't know, that's going go over well and you gotta get stuff
to become a call centre to take tips like this is not right.
The tv. I realised that it could be a pr issue, so they allowed for us to give a contact, number or email address for tips. So during the press conference
which it out on Youtube. I go there
and I spoke at length about going to the locations where all these women were found.
How this has developed into this press conference were were asking people to all
The TB are it. It was
Suddenly it was so weird because suddenly you had all these camera
facing you. You had all these MIKE's upon you in your talk.
women in your talking about this case.
the entire time. I'm thinking, I'm just a part, castor from Northern Indiana head. This all happened.
my cousin new,
but Jane DOE in her area is
farm. I want to look into it
a very weird experience, so that the press conference help tremendously
gained a lot of attention, a lot of tips and calls it shortly after the press conference, the tv I made a
another press conference for themselves.
and they announced that they were able to confirm that the woman
I put them in touch with was the
sister to the victim found north of Knoxville became more county. Jane DOE was in fact Tina
my from Indianapolis, and
That was a moment
that I remember when I I think I got a text
the sister and I was just dumbfounded.
Like suddenly what I said:
to do helped identified this person.
It was just an unbelievable moment. I it's hard for me to describe to
right now. I have nothing but passed.
things to say about Tina Farmers family.
I went to ending up was met with them, their amazing people
Tina farmer was reported missing, but because she had a history of being a sex workers at a truck.
They seemingly just did not. While the missing person case, sir
unfortunately, that's what led to her being unidentified for so long. The moment that my tip
then they were able to get with the Indianapolis a police department and they had interact,
words that they were able to compare and that's how they confirm that this was her and then-
shortly after that, the delay,
from North Carolina, who we thought could be the daughter of
Jane, DOE found and Barbara your Kentucky,
and she said, that's my mom,
That was another moment where you're just thinking, ok
now. Another Jane DOE has a name. Her name is Sb Regina Black
and I just kept thinking okay, this is our great,
There are still three more Jane those and I just thought: ok, let's
keep the momentum going, but
you get someone else identified in then
it's weird thing happened that
I cannot say I had any part of where this woman,
named: Elizabeth Lamont, it was from New Hampshire. Her family had been
contact with her since the eighties for a very long time and I believe the local police.
coming was trying to find out if this lady was a victim that they had up there in that area
and so they ran whore her dna. They were able to obtain it from her brother and when they re
her dna, they realised through the night.
state a base that this is the change
the sound and Greenville Tennessee, which
the county that the high school students were in
so suddenly Elizabeth Lamont was another name that we had. He say you don't feel.
like you are responsible for this, but that First Red Cross you hammered into the ground is kind of response.
Rather than the I guess, a similar. I am, I guess, response
billowy is not something that I've ever cared
I guess I've just been true.
To my mind, my next thought, like my thought right now is there are still too during those we need to find out who they are
The next thing that happens is, I start thinking that maybe the skies in prison or maybe
went to prison for a period of time and then when he got back,
He was no longer able to physically do this. Now
but he is like we from the Knoxville area, at least that's where his tracking is based. Out of. I start look
female looked like a could be related, like he has a series of things that he does to his victims was
leaving the match that could we,
to believe that this could be the guy and
what is happening with. I found this this victim who survived her tag
Her name is Linda Shack. I believe us
pronounce your last name and shortly after
re almost run after Tina farmers frowned and again Tina farmers.
I'm just north of Knoxville in Knoxville, Linda
and met this man at a stroke club and went back to the
tell with him and his brother, and this
weird series of events played out, but at Last-
and to embrace
her on the side of the interstate and trying
to strangle her in fact,
she passes out. He believed,
he's dead. You leave
steals her. Car leaves- and I just thought
there's a lot of similarities here in terms of like that,
of work. She was in. She was already
I mean she looked just like these other women that same age in this
and a Knoxville which is where we are.
leave the skies based out of now. He was dead,
your vehicle, specifically that he stole from her, but in the police reports I found that he was a trucker. He owned, a small trucking company. Can I was like
ok, this is interesting. What more can I find, and so I kept digging so I
to Nashville in the archives to look up this court case
One of the pictures I sent you just in is of
a t shirt the white teeth
search that sometimes men were underneath shirts and that t shirt had been pulled apart,
and he used to strangle her. You use that as a ligature, essentially yes and
it was in one of the boxes. So
gloves that you see in the picture is me they. Let me handle all the stuff, so this picture
this man and the net
picture I looked out, was of his truck and it
a red flag, no struck exactly how the eye
witness explain to me the truck look like.
this really could be him, and I
thinking to myself. I know
there is some type of dna lips found wanting a farmer habit.
Was this consuming your life at that moment a lot you can ask my now wife,
Much time I mean.
But this was a long period of time. I mean it's been
five years, at least since I had started and I've been
every location many times many many times, including the high school, but like every time you fine, like the necklace or another family, comes forward or this witness your like. I have one more piece of this puzzle and I have to complete this
puzzle in that's exactly how it was, but I was so devoted because I felt like
there was an injustice here. I felt like I guess what
detectives early on toward me that one of the things that hurt these women in terms
keeping them in the media and keeping them as a priority for detectives who they were
those and they didn't.
Family members calling and knocking and saying, hey where's this case out in, and I think the
during this entire time. Not only was
self in these students in his teacher trying to find this information, but we suddenly had people
contacting us because they re
learned about it. They think that their loved one might be involved. I think we probably had at least fifty people email
or contact us through social media
they believe that their ex husband did it in so
you have like you. We are following every lead: lotta, crappy
husbands, other yeah,
yeah, I mean an eye. There was one
and almost others tell you this one story, as it was crazy. So here in my town of Wabash Indiana, we have
one of the largest fund raising chile competitions. Where we are
shall we do this big fundraiser so
of the events,
I am making Chile
a huge event does all these people you can hear very well, while suddenly
woman contacts me or Facebook.
She says, I'm in Kentucky my Ex husband,
is not letting me leave the home. There are cameras. I think he is the main research
the boy. I can't contact anyone
as a he won't. Let me leave the house and I thought oh gee,
so suddenly I had a funk. I had to call the Kentucky state. Please
like that's what you do when someone says that so I got her,
dress there. I am I was hunkered down,
in a long share, with my coat covering me in October, trying to call the Kentucky state
and explain to them what's going on and it was
very weird conversation. I know that the personal limas like like who a sky- and why
is he surrounded by all these people? You is very weird atmosphere and you just try to call on a welfare check yeah. They were keeping
Me in the loop, he would call me backing by ok, we're on our way to our house, and I honour
think that occurs saved your life like it was a master
situation they get to the house and he had just left. Thankfully, the door was
locked from inside and outside, so he had the only key to it there all these sick,
cameras up, she was being forced.
be there, it was crazy. They were able
Get her to safety gear her place to stay at and they were able to arrest him so
just one of those things that was a side effect of this whole thing. Here we were
returning every stone at this point, but as it
turns out. He wasn't responsible for all
these murders. He just was. He was just some random guy yeah, so going back,
going all this information from this case, and I thought this guy really seems like he could be the one.
problem was when
found that out. He had just died in prison and I thought okay so he's gone. I can't contact him as I would have take contacting him
The only hope now is it there's dna somewhere, and we have
six victims, surely we can find in it, so
go back to my message to the tv I and
to tell you and each of my message to them. It is like outline
and spell checked notes
phone numbers by all this stuff. I kept sending them hoping some one was there listening, it wasn't just being deleted. I kind of had high hopes
because when Tina Farmer was was identified, I was like ok someone's listening, so I
in a huge step with all,
information? And I explained why I think this,
I did it and in another instance, why really felt like he was the one was because,
and Elizabeth one mops found and Green DOT Tennessee.
there was a hard found with
and it may have been like up but the old
anxious that come with a business card. You know I'm talking about here,
but I had the name,
This bar- and I was like that's weird-
but I know that this man was originally from Texas in here.
ten to Knoxville and he was doing this trucking business have knocked over. He was also going back home to taxes to visit family members, so I tracked
where his family members had lived in Texas sure enough,
the very bar that that match the card was from
it's just down the street from his parents house like this hast like this has to be him
So I said the tap into the TB are, and I
talk to another written detective and taught him all this wasn't in. He agree with me. This is likely the guy well one
leads to another
tv I was able to find a dna on Tina farmer. They compared it too
this man and was able
to confirm this- is him he is the
then who definitely killed Tina Farmer and he is the person
attempted to kill. Linda went a shack, so I was like ok
now I know who did it.
I know that he likely
the rest of these women, but this time
the stone my head, why? Why did he do this work?
was he targeting specific looking women as well, so is able to,
crack down his ex wife.
They were married at the time that he had been convicted for,
attempted murder of Linda, so I tracked her down
You know how large I am so imagine me knocking on the door. I don't wanna talk about your ex husband, the
The media is now talking about because they confirm the he killed us other woman,
she's like a man, I don't know if I would
open the door to you. Now I promise
we would not. If I saw some that boat like me, I'll call the police
especially in a small town, but
so she was an amazing person who had
aren't you a lot of things and one of them
I asked her was: did she believed that he could have killed these other women
and she sighed, probably, and so
she didn't know anything about the other cases. She only had known about Tina Farmer because it was just released and she knew, of course, that he had attempted to kill Linda
start showing her photos of these other victims.
And immediately she goes that was like me like me too. I was like me
I thought you know she has red hair, that's odd, that he would be killing people kind of look like his wife,
the more that I talked to her the more
I started to realize what happened. So is
wife told me that they met, because
He was in the army or the Marines Cambridge one, and he asked
he fled came home, he was. He went AWOL em when
him home, he was neighbours with her family, her dad mom. They knew the Thea
the army, was gonna, come looking for him ass. He was a war snail
sleep in their attic
So this was this was happening. I believe he was like nineteen or twenty. She told
that she had just turn twelve? When he's
staying there, then,
She goes on and says that that is when they started falling in love this
of course, what she's telling me and it doesn't.
escaped my mind, but listeners would have recognised the he's. Nineteen, oh she's, twelve! Barely that's not acceptable.
And she suddenly learn that she was pregnant and so
They did. Was they go to tell her dad in her dad
says where you're going.
have to get rid of it and there like one
Why would we do that
He says because your siblings
and when he says that
he worms that his mom had an affair with her dad. This was his real bad soil.
you're asking questions about what did he say?
having hatred towards his mouth
for that she's like oh yeah.
His moms name is Lucy
The Lucy was a sex worker
and suddenly he heard a lotta hatred towards her as active. A picture of his mom
she saw me a picture of his mom and I can make this up.
The church. She shows me she,
a lot like his now
ex wife and they both looked a lot like these victims. So I think that
We had something to do with it. I also knows that he started killing these women when he had
start, opening up his tracking company. So suddenly he was allowed to be gone for a long period of time
I asked her another question. I said it seem like he was specifically going after a specific person truck stops. Do you know of any in any scenario that he would have referred
to these women are something other than human beings. You know was their hatred towards them
You told me the story about how she went with him on one of his trucking sprays and he pointed out to her
are women who were working in the truck stops and he was referring to them as basic.
animals I mean just using warble language.
and she realised that yet
like yeah. Soon he either not like these people. He thought that they were in a less land people, so that
cemented in my mind that he has to be responsible for the others and
as of today, when I'm talking to you he's only.
Found by agreeing jury to be responsible for teen, a farmer
the other five women he has ever been found responsible for so until that happens,
I'm still thinking that we still need to other more work here because
Why do we have two more Jane doze? We need to get a grand jury to say yeah. He also is responsible for this woman's death. That's important to me
because until then, these are court cases and we
me too, to make him
but we can't. You know, of course, bring him to court and not be found guilty, but
what they did an antenna, farmers cases they went to a grand jury presented. The evidence in the grand jury said. Yes, we would indict M based on this
That's really what I would like to see happen. We have two more marching. Doze to identify for
but Lamont against.
its founding Greenville Tennessee she's from New Hampshire in her case,
civic I've I've spoken to her brother. He shares
with me that there is this problem because detectives from new
I am sure who are in charge of her missing person case. They were
FBI I be involved, because the F B, I would have much more resources than that
maybe I, but they have been
I cannot step in unless the
he be. I ask them to bureaucracy.
How which is weird to me, because this man was bringing these women prostate lines like in my mind, that should be enough that the F B, I should like a work taken this over. It's not like,
The tv shows where the FBI shows up and they were taken over now. Now it's right is not as simple as that. So that would be my hope at some point I
we hope that the tv I will ask the
FBI to be involved, not because I feel like their neglecting. The case
because I don't. I don't want to pass blame or point fingers, but
gets no secret, that the F B, I will have more resources and more reach. What has been happening up until this point hasn't worked.
So. I have no doubt the f b. I would be able to help
very least bring more attention to the case in that
this kind of where the cases now just last week, I had a phone call conversation with teacher Alex, which is what I call a teacher Alex EM
China brainstorm ideas on how to try to help these detectives get the FBI involved, and
I can't force anyone to do anything, but hopefully we can find
way to ask me
Lastly, I guess is the best her best.
we have in its context,
to me to this date, but I am this part
stir, and I consider myself a nobody that and that these people are still
contacting me just two weeks ago. The original
and that was found who was identified. Lisa Nicholls her niece contacted me and
I just thought when I saw her email. I was like another person like
for all the people who have been identified. I've spoken to their loved ones, and I didn't I didn't put the crosses up
For this reason, I decided
on my mind at all. I guess, but each time
both to one of these victims, families. They would start
following along with what I was doing, and they were told me how much a means to them to go to the location
where their sister mother was found, and
be across their for them already.
and just to know that someone went out of their way from a different state just to put that up for them
That meant a lot to them to feel like someone still here
after all that time,
and I will be the first want to tell you that I feel in this.
going into this. I started refrain
my sister's just because I felt like
suddenly had an iron and the fire like I had to get these women identified. Some one had a stick up for them. Someone
to bring this to the attention of people and I hope
That's something that your listeners will take away from. This is theirs.
Good messaging about this entire thing, but I hope that will help other people,
One of the things is that no more
where you are in life you
matter, and I hope that if, if you need help, you get help ask for help
there are resources out there. If you need help, I wish
as a homeless high school student. I would have known that there were places and people who I could have gone too
for help. In my mind, at the time I had to be someone who was that I was related to them. If I could ask for how like no one else scared, I thought, but that's not.
case and in their is help out there, and I hope that that is the ultimate message that people will get from. Listening to this, I wrote
thing down. While you are speaking heroes,
never feel heroic, and that's
I want you to know why. I appreciate that without you, nothing would have happened here, it's a its own and try not to cry Justin its. I guess through this whole thing
I want people to start looking and their neighbourhood at
any situation that might have happened where they,
have something similar happen of suffering
If, if you are less no help there, while you take a minute, you know you're into true
Prime take a minute to find out.
How many Jean doze or in your county and when you are looking at that.
well if there is any way that you could help those people be identified,
in what you might find is that
these are people.
Have no name
had a name somewhere. If more.
People will go out
their way too.
For the unnamed. I think that that will do the entire world a huge favor.
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Transcript generated on 2022-03-07.