« The Generation Why Podcast

Who Killed Jerry Tobias? Part 2 - 312


On episode 311 we discussed the investigation into the death of Jerry Tobias, an oilfield worker in Gaylord, Michigan. On this episode, we bring the story to its conclusion by discussing how the case went completely off the rails. The prosecution's star witness, Debbie Parmentier, had a lot of information to give but she was also a liability. If you thought that you had heard of some unbelievable cases in the past, then you will want to listen to this one. There aren't too many true crime stories that can top it.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
New ideas and either great just then, how are you feeling I'm far more, perky and spunky tonight so ready for another round. Yes, I want to give a quick shout out to rick walker
he's a fan of ours from liberty, Missouri, not very far from where I live awesome and a quick shot out two erika. Thank you for all your help and I hope your husband is getting better and we wanted to give a shadow to yeah from Calgary her friend blaine. He said that she's one of our biggest supporters. So thank you for turning into our podcast. Every week with no fees or minimums banking with capital. One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions even ease here then deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast with no. We're draft ease, isn't he the decision that banking re imagined, what's in your wallet term supply, see capital, one dot, com, slash bank capital, one in a member of the icy price line? It goes without saying that we're all missing travel right now, but you know elsewhere missing getting more for less with pricing. Can save up to sixty percent on your favorite hotels? And you can also get
This deals on car rentals flights and more and when you the more you can do more, more wow, This view is incredible: more round of room service. More sorry, boss. I'm going to extend my view. Haitian price. I knows every trip is a big deal. So when you're ready to book your next one check out, pricing dot com for the easiest way to get more how an extent vacations, so this is going to be part. Two we're gonna, give a quick recap here on the events that have taken place. The man the victim here is jerry, Tobias. He was found in the back of his pickup truck and the freezing cold. There were packages of meat wrapped from a local butchers shops cause of death, is semi up for debate. Medical examiner says it was blunt trauma to the head caused by a chicken spit org skewer, the owner of the butcher
up lorry more is charged with murder. He is found guilty. second degree manslaughter and hit with the book, sentenced to fifteen years a mist. various woman named Debbie parliament here comes forward, saying lorries innocent. She knows who actually killed. Jerry law enforcement and defence attorneys disregard her at first but does she speaks to the prosecutor. They start giving her a little bit more seriously now. She agrees that or more was present during the murder and the beating, along with his brother, sure, also name her ex boyfriend, his best friend an ex employee and a bunch other people that where there are a whole list that keeps growing ass, the story progresses. the rest of the story that we're gonna tell tonight is going to be
loosely in chronological order, because a lot of these things happen simultaneously and as you see. The story is crazy. There's a lot of information and this is some. I really had to take major notes while doing ok he's so yeah. So where we left off was the jury was deliberate. on terry moors trial. Nine days, the jury captain the judge they were deadlocked, the judge refused to declare and miss trial, so they kept going Debbie the star witness who places terry at the scene of the crime. Sensing that the jury doesn't believe her story and she might be losing credibility, she starts planning aid drive by shooting on her own apartment, two, I guess, give herself more credibility, make it look like she's in fear of her life.
If you stop and think about how insane that sounds, how saying can she be? Really here I mean I'm going to increase my credibility by faking. It attack on my place. It just doesn't This doesn't make any sense to me, but her logic is. It reinforces her story that these people are drug dealing, weapons, dealing, war criminals that are murdered this man and there are willing to do witness intimidation to get her to not testify against them. There's a conspiracy here exactly, but it's all her she's thee. entire conspiracy. What's even crazier isn't just that she's saying this and that she is planning to do this, but it who's going along with this plot its.
some of the men that the police have assigned to her to watch over her while she's in protective custody and as you will find out, they report back to the police what they ve done. Still nothing's done, so she higher a friend and gilbert who will shoot into her apartment when she's, conveniently not home when the police arrived to investigate none of the neighbors seem surprised, were upset and dislike. Oh yeah, we're Debbie lives if your neighbor's house was shot up, would you be chill and com
I dunno I I might have to move out for a little bit yeah. I might yeah one might suspect that she tipped her neighbors off to this before it happened. Let's just speculate a little bit there you're going to hear some you're going to hear a bang or two. It's no big deal just fireworks. Well, this happens. The shooting happens. And lo and behold, the jury will come back with a second degree murder charge for terry, more the other of lorry. More now, the jury was not sequestered. They were deadlocked for over nine days, and now they come the decision. So maybe it wasn't a crazy plod anyway, it might have worked. You know we're not sure this jury was influenced by the shooting or not. It definitely gotta decision at the same time: Debbie and her husband are going through a very nasty divorce. Her huh
it is not allowed to testify against her because of spousal privilege and I just assume that a spouse couldn't be swayed to testify against you, but I figured that they could. If they wanted to. I guess not Maybe it just depends on the state urine, but he absent We wanted to testify against her. He absolutely knew her history her background everything. Maybe some of our listeners can inform us on spousal privilege any who Debbie's own divorce lawyer is following the trials and he gets worse, and that Debbie is the star witness and she's saying that she was at the scene of this murder witnessing it. So he wrote a letter to the prosecutor prosecutor haze in this light
he gives Debbie's whereabouts on the night of the alleged murder. He says that she told him, that she was driving around with two other men doing drugs and the time doesn't match up to the events at all Maybe she's not remembering right now, the defensive any of lorry more terry, more marked canter, I dug and dawn. They know nothing of this letter it's just the divorce attorney, sending it to the prosecutor and the prosecutor just files it away. I think that would be considered exculpatory, but you know the craziest thing about this part is that is her own attorney? That's notifying norman haze about this. So it to me It is very much exculpatory and the fact that he just sort of what's it away and doesn't it
an offensive, it well yeah. We know what he wants. He wants a conviction, so the state has their convict terry. They move onto doug, brigman and mark canter Debbie claims that, Men has sold and bought drugs from a man named vander, bird and. somehow ties into the night of the murder she says a lot of things and they don't make sense so. Sorry! I apologise. If I dont go too deep into the statement she made, but they do fine this man brandenburg. They questioned him about the sale and he said it never happened and he
as that he knows Debbie and she's not very stable, and that he definitely had nothing to do with this. The interview with Van hamburg was taped unrecorded, and this was given to the prosecution who then never gave it to any of the defence anyway, as something else is happening with the defence they were trying to get law enforcement to serve their subpoenas and summons further witnesses. Law enforcement and gay lord and gay lord refused, they cause acted his office, and I guess this is somewhat standard seizure for defence to ask the dossier whether the prosecution office to help serve summons prosecutor haze, refuses to help them or
This them says he doesn't have the time or resources or he just doesn't respond. The defence goes to the judge to force phases office to help serve the subpoenas. The judge agrees. That seems like a good thing right, a. got him to help us and then every single person that serve to subpoena is either threatened with prosecution pulled over multiple times by local law enforcement and jailed or just straight up, says: I'm not going to testify, because I'm being threatened by process her haze, that's insane! This is the generation. Why? I don't care about narrative, this isn't coincidence. Justin now will again you know we ve seen this in other cases, though, not to this gray may be, but we seem where a prosecutor has their theory. There no, what happened and then, when these other
he tells come up there, just sort of inconveniences that can be shoved aside. The question is: is this I know is hurting my case. So I need to stop it or em. just ignoring it or making these people go away because their messing up my case, and I already know what happened? Is ego, or is this oppression? I'm really trying to stay unbiased ice. I promise you. I am but the more and more. I read about this case, the more it just infuriates me and I have to that this was by design? This is oppression. Defence will hire a ex cop private eye to help serve their subpoenas, and he will be pulled over multiple times by local law enforcement. To the point where he could. So mark chanters defence attorney is a man named macneil and he's like a bulldog he's. We allow
the latch onto something he doesn't let go. You know that whole cliche during can yours, trial. Macneil tries to make all of Debbie parameters statements admissible. Events like she does. Cocaine drops and military helicopters, which she claims mark counters father is the pilot. They go back and forth between canada and california. think that they could actually substantiate this claim that his father is a helicopter pilot, but you know not down bother. She says that they're all drug runners, drug dealers, and that He can move objects with her mind, can alike jet. I using force the stuff telecom uses. Yes, I, like general stuff. But the problem, though, is macneil is by the book. He
he doesn't live by my motto: witches ask for forgiveness, not permission. He actually tried to ask for permission during the pre trial hearings. and again, prosecutor haze, shoots this down and the judge agree that is not relevant to the case, so their star witness, who can move, objects whether mind, and I mean it give you some more hands on other things. She said now: she's, corn, everything's. Fine! at the same time, the man that's watching over Debbie is barons and he actually comes forward to law enforcement. Any tells them that Debbie is hired to different men for the shootings on the other witnesses house and her own. One of the guns used in the shootings was his now. He says he didn't pull the trigger. Who is this other man, but he does have firearms licence is a licensed dealer and he doesn't want to go down for this
so this information is brought up. He goes all the way back to haze? Who, if he didn't know before this point, its damn sure he knows now that Debbie is a loose cannon and is manipulating others. So the man that's watching over Debbie report, this crime and nothing is done. The judge asks haze if he wants to continue with the trial against more cancer gives. The judge is like in the know about this too right, yeah he's going weena continue this circus, sir. What are we doing? We already know the answer I dont like everyone knows. and they haven't even heard it yet you They continue on, but he's gotta find it the witness to put at the scene because- Obviously, Debbie's credibility is, a little shaken at this point. You know,
but you know this is not going to be a problem, because if you can get a lot of people, not to show up to be witnesses to give testimony, then you can probably use the other way and get someone you convince some one to show up and give testimony now so well his first plan. Is he actually asks mark cantor? He offers mark a plea deal to testify against the others, and you can walk out of jail tonight. Mark has been sitting in jail for a year and a half not only does mark turn down this deal, but it pissed some off, because he has no clue what happened that night. He doesn't know any of these people, except for Debbie, and he hates her because she got his friend doug fired from his job and he quit two and now they're, all being charged with murder
of her dog brigman has been sitting in another prison, another jail dog, I guess, met a friend in prison or more or less I'm saying that Lastly, somebody is harassing Doug one day he assaults. Doug Doug is asking to be moved to sag. To get away from this man. That's denied dog actually a job where he asked to go into a special secure area were only people with security. Badges can get into This other inmate gets a badge and ends up raping doug, then Doug's offered a plea, deal testify against the others and you walk out of jail tonight. Inmates do horrible things to each other. That stuff happens but wow. The timing of this
is just insane. I can't say that this was orchestrated, but it doesn't look. Good dog is offered this plea he wants to take, it becomes he's being assaulted repeatedly and once the torture to stop. But again, he's is torn. Dawn, he's done is also offered a plea by haste to testify against the others he turns it down. Also, he could not bring himself to lie. He comes back him in his defence and they offer the prosecution and no contest for a reduced. Which prosecutor hazel and accepting now I mean add another character. This story a woman named sherry Paden? she had a loose connection with some of these men. She also had once for her arrest for bad checks, she had moved.
Way from michigan to florida. She was turning her I pulled round. Ah she got pregnant and she's like you know what I got this warrant over my head back in Michigan, I'm going to go back and talk to my lawyer. Get this all cleaned up because I want to just a clean start, and- and I want to do the right thing, so she returns back to michigan. She meets with her attorney and he's like ok yeah come on, we'll take care of this it'll be a bunch of finds you gotta pay and we should be all right at the same time, the lead detective on the case against african dog and dawn, and all these guys declares that he had a dream that Sherry peyton was there the night of the murder and he asks Debbie about this and Debbie.
yeah she was there. I want to say this in the best possible way. I want to not make this sound like a complete and utter sham. But this is the reality, is he She said he had a dream that she was there and now Debbie's backing that up and saying she was so when Sherry peyton arrives in town immediately arrested for special of or accessory of she's put in jail. Now she's pregnant arrested on a friday night, the keeper behind bars for three days, not feeding her and just repeatedly in terror, getting her, then? What are they? What are they do to sherry earn more when I It was that they told cherry that if she didn't cooperate, she was probably gonna lose her newborn she's going to be charged with accessory to murder or murder go to jail. Her baby will be born, who behind bars and taken away from.
yeah, that's what that's! What it sounded like to me is that's what convinced her she needed to do, something that she didn't want to do because She didn't, while is her baby. Her only connection to this was- she knew who jerry Tobias was and as soon as they heard that day latched onto it. They ask her She knows who Debbie is she says? No. She has no clue. Investigators tell her that they know she was involved and shit. They know shoes that butcher shop and eventually she turns and says fine, but since I wasn't there you're going to have to tell me what to say and detective name go, as says. I will give you all the information. I will give you the statements of exactly what you need to say, but this com
station never happened, and if you tell anyone well, it's your word against mine and will charge you with obstruction of justice and perjury and all other things. So now we have a new, not star witness but another. I witness to this and, of course, mark counters trial is on hold, while they're getting sherry in take moment to get away From our sponsor simply safe, we'll put off. doing things that we know we need to do. I mean we knowing to organise the garage or edit that last episode, but something always gets in the way funny our homes. Security can be like that. You know it's a good idea, but there is always something holding you back well now the time to act, protect your home simply safe home security simply safely. Nothing should come between you and protecting your home, so they ve gotten. Of all the reasons not to get a home security system, there's no contract ever no price more.
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the best selling book comes a juicy mystery full of romance murder and deadly secrets. Daisy agro jones plays kyar an outsider, who europe alone in the marshes of north carolina when finds herself drawn the two men from town. It opens a whole new world possibilities until one of them turns up dead blamed for the murder the town once answers, but will the truth said kyar free or condemn her forever? produced by reese witherspoon, featuring a new original song by taylor. Swift. This is the event of the summer, see where the crowded sing, exclusively. In movie theaters July fifteenth buy tickets now mark counters attorney. He has the right to go talk to this. witness so he's trying to set up an interview with her before trial every time he goes to the jail she's not available, and this
on for days and days and days until literally the day before the trial or hours before supposed to be in court. There, like ok, nine, go talk to her, so he goes and talks to her. She says nothing of value and its obvious to macneil that she's just a fall person, she sister manufactured wit, at this point, because she has nothing to say so. Here is It s really interesting data hearing in court and it's not in the presence of the jury or anything macneil puts debbie up on the stand. And starts questioning her, and he says I have some questions: this woman named sherry, Paden and Debbie repeats the same story, but she add sherry, was there the night of, but she ran out. You know screaming or something like that any says: can you pick sherry peyton out in the audience behind me,
and Debbie says now I can and Macneil says. Well let me help you out and he has a woman stand up and says: can you please identify sherry Paden to the court and Debbie says: ok, yeah, that's her! That's the woman that was there the night of blah blah well. This was a big ploy and add macneil. actually had just some random woman. That was a plant in the courtroom, stand up whose hair and every like Oliver characteristics were the exact opposite of sherry payments. So the hair color was wrong She was taller. She was skinnier whatever and of course, Debbie says that's her. Will you laugh But this is sad, is a sad state of affairs and how does that make the justice system look in Michigan? This isn't a little bit of corruption.
in a little bit of Oh one guy did something wrong. This is everyone and when it's in the face of the prosecution and the judge and everyone and they're still not accepting it, they're still going through the motions. It's ridiculous. I know you'd be surprised, though there are people that their beliefs are stronger than truth. Do you know what I'm saying? Oh I know I'm on the internet. I see that every night and so you'll find people that absolutely think that these are the people that were responsible for the death of jerry, Tobias and that Debbie's doing our best but she's having to do all the work here, maybe she's under a lot of pressure. Just then she just can't pull it altogether it's so much work she's doing what she can. Now a sherry Paden added to the witness list, this trial,
can get under way? And Mary was not on the witness list before the trial. She was added. And remember all the issues that MC neill, the defence attorney had trying to get witnesses and summoned served. Well now he's le he's thinking. Well, you just added a witness that was on the list, so I have a whole list of witnesses that I want to put on the stand that I didn't declare either and of course, prosecutor haze is not cool with this, although he did it himself but hypocrisy, veils well he's special. Just then a weird thing happens when sherry is testifying an being cross examined. She says a
Other woman was their named windy brok. Okay, so let's add this up now we have how many people, in the back room of this book shop, lorry more terry, more dawn, he certain Doug brigman, mark canter, Debbie, parmiter, sherry, Paden and wendy brok and, of course, jerry to buy Yet because supposedly jerry drove sherry there, so we have nine people. I don't know what the population of this town is, but I would say that that's a percentage well just think about how large the back rumor. This butcher shop is, and now there are nine people there but see the strange thing,
is slowly. We have people being added to this back room and you're. Talking about wendy brok. Isn't that counters ex girlfriend yeah just random rio, that is counters ex girlfriend. But why didn't anyone mention her up until this point may be? People were covering for each other, but the truth is Finally, coming out or not I it's well, let's go through. Yes, that's figure this out because she gives testimony about this. I mean she's bright, so they bring. They add her to the list to end He brought in as a as a witness to give testimony and she gives pretty damning testimony. What does she say? So she testified that when canter is her boyfriend at the time came home, and this was between six and seven in the morning on December sixth, one thousand nine hundred and eighty six that his hands were cut up. His mouth was blood.
She also said that she had overheard him talking to brink men and this was in eighty seven saying that he was dead when we put him in the truck meaning She overheard them talking about jerry, Tobias and about how they had murdered him, but some pretty specific details. Let's aiming testimony any if you're wondering if counters guilty here well here his ex girlfriend, who was suddenly brought in, and she has some good information on this case, but she didn't come for or during lorry or any these other people. She only gets brought in three for trials into this well. Thankfully, Sherry comes along and out, sir, so now she's brought in and now she's just ass. Do her civic duty right. Yeah too, that, however, you want she comes,
and she testifies against her ex marc canter. The jury will find mark guilty. You say that, like you're surprised I've, just though I'm not, but it is what it is. Ah, after the trial after the sentencing, the jury calls in the judge and prosecutor Hayes because they have some problems with this case and of course, if they're being called in then
to get mcneil the defense attorney to come into. He walks into the room and the jury is asking why Debbie hasn't been charged perjury and they all think that she's, an absolute liar Mcneil, is obviously appalled that they found his client guilty, even though they think all the witnesses that the state put on the stand are liars. I'm I'm just blown away by this. Ah, and this has gone on for too long. What are all these men? What are they like? What are they found guilty of, and what are they since do? Let's just say some time here listed off well, lorrie moore was convicted of voluntary manslaughter and he was sentenced to seven to fifteen years in prison. Terry Moore was convicted of second degree murder and mark canter,
was convicted of aiding and abetting a second degree murder. He got life in prison. He sent brakemen, both pleaded no com test hasten received three to five years in prison and brink. Men received a similar prison term. They were both released on parole. Time served So now it's nineteen, eighty, nine! All these trials have come and gone. All these men are serving time and sherry Paden, we'll call marketers attorney macneil, and she tells him that she wants to recant her statement against mark recant. All of her testimony that she gave during trial, I understand that macneil. did not reach out to her. She reached out to him also, Another woman bought one of the homes that One of the men had died.
on the shooting she moved into that house and she finds a rifle hidden behind the wall. she handed over to law enforcement. Who does a ballistics test on it, finds that the bullet from this? on matches the bullet that was recovered from Debbie's apartment and that this rifle is registered. barons the man who was watching over daddy the police, I hand this over to the gaylord police and they file it separately and the case out on the shooting to Debbie's apartment error in the world. of today is cover up. Can you say it with me? They have the rifle used in a dry by shooting they link it back to people were associated with Debbie and they match rifles ballistics to the bullet fired into her apartment,
May I remind you that if you are helping out prosecutors for helping these here. If you're helping justice, then exceptions are made right. It's a way of saying? Thank you so much for your service, you wouldn't when I think of other cases like stephen avery or norfolk. For some of the other cases that unites there's some questionable investigation work there you were to tell me about this case and say you have to hear about this. You won't believe it you're right, I wouldn't have believed it I'd, say no way, there's no way that they would have done this. There's no way that a sin officer, oneness said or done, the right thing. Now need to take this up to the top and report this. I wouldn't believed it is literally a conspiracy. This is multiple agency.
all working together in an illegal manner. Again now, this information was ever given to the defence, so why would you helped the opposing team out justin, well by law. You have to have that. What is that Why here yeah? Well, here's a funny story. The defence teams of all of these men are trying to file appeals. They know of each other, so they start reaching out to each other and saying hey, I'm doing the appeal I could you help me with some dark imitation. Did you have any of these police reports? Or could you help me with this? You know they're coming together to help each other out. When you have asked for defence attorneys new legal offices coming together, that's a force to be reckoned with. What did you call
psych like voltron or somethin yeah, it's bowl trying. You have all these different parts coming together, informing this giant robot of justice, but you know it's not just defence attorneys. Terry, more was later then by Stuart Hubble and he's a former prosecuting attorney. Yeah even get the attorney general's office involved. This is the Agee office there above the d a there above all of these people. Even I think that's the power having this other prosecutor come in on the defense side because he has those connections and when he comes along and says this is ridiculous. Every aspect of this case every bit of it is a joke. Then I think his words carry a lot of weight and he can actually get the attention of someone who can make a deal.
here. So the agency's office comes in the streets doing investigation of their own. Meanwhile, these defence attorneys are banding together and making some progress on their cases. The funny thing is about this new investigation from the agee. The one person they can't seem to interview is dead, Debbie's just seems to be so elusive. She's Change your name several times and when they go to court, in her the sheriffs department they finder through like so security accounts because apparently she's collecting social security the two are due to a mouse an old distress by being put on the stand and having her apartment shot at she's collecting social security
anyways. They find that she's actually on the payroll of the shares department as a paid informant and when they ask well, how do we reach her that church? and said. Ah well, we have talked her in a while. She was doing a drug by for us and she disappeared with eight. thousand dollars of ours for the drug by who, so they finally tracked down Debbie and o connor door. She answers they say here we have some questions and this is just a routine investigation. This is even like they're coming they're coming after her there just interviewing people in getting their statements. While they ask Debbie forced statement- and she says you need to talk to prosecutor Hayes giving any statement. This is the attorney general's office coming in they go and the prosecutor haze and they say we want to talk to Debbie,
the way prosecutor haze he's not a prosecutor anymore. He is now a judge, hope that gives you a warm and fuzzy judge Hayes. Says no you're, not gonna harassment. My client you're, not gonna, ass, my my witness, you can't interview her and the attorney general's office back down and they don't interview her so yeah mark chanters filing an appeal based on several factors. First is sure patrons recanting.
laurie more is filing appeals. Both of the appeals are citing prosecutors, misconduct, weirdly enough lorry, more gets off on a technicality and is released from prison, but that doesn't fix anything. Now I mean that helps but yeah it doesn't fix when he's fixing and sadly all the prospect misconduct issues were not addressed, because the technicality was issue number one and the appeals court. agreed with it and said: ok he's out, so they didn't even get to judge or give a statement or any kind of ruling on anything else. Well, I think that's the justice system right there, They saw that he needed be released because of a technicality. So all points are moot, even though there are people who are looking at this and saying. Well, how can you fix the system at the system? Isn't even looking at? It
yeah and mark in these other guys were hoping that they could use some of these rulings. In their favour, but they didn't get mark and Larry's appeals eighty years, their lawyers are asking for this thing called an order of cod. potentiality discovery. I'm not exactly sure what this means well yeah. I've read some articles on it and let me just say that men The articles. I read seem to think that what Stuart Hubble, what Engaging in was a one man grand jury, but that's not true, because that was actually shot down in forty nine by the governor so either no in michigan they had this thing called a one. Man grand jury were a prosecutor, Where a judge could hear testimony and go through these hearings,
someone witnesses and have their question answered under oath. That's not exactly what happened here, his legs at a governor and already signed a bill that Rather the one man grand jury, which was I dont, know if it was exactly need to michigan by michigan was known for it. So what this really, as is what you just said and again I think it's something supposed to help protect these individuals rights through this process while still getting information well it sir it's, giving them extra powers to go, collect evidence and talk to witnesses. Out of sight out of mind, because if there is corruption, then can be witness intimidation. There can be stonewalling. All these things that we ve kind of seen from this DA's office, so
are so it's allowing them to go around that and get the job done. Macneil and hubble one of the first things they do. Is they go to the gay lord police department and they ask for all the files related to these cases, including the police reports and lead investigators notes. Now, you were talking about exculpatory evidence earlier or why wouldn't they hand over this stuff to the defence to help them out They go in a room and there is a bunch boxes in there and nay the cops hand em all over and there's one box, often the corner that now ones acting like it exists and, of course,
the hubble and these guys they're like what's in that box, and they get it. It's just full of Debbie Parmentier. His initial statements saying that jerry Tobias was stabbed to death. He had no stab wounds, there's just hundreds of documents and there were even documents. With notes about the shooting that happened and how barons and other police reported it up the chain that Debbie had orchestrated tire thing so when they finally get the lead investigator up on the stand to ask him about this, save
Why didn't you hand over all the exculpatory evidence and his answer is: what's exculpatory mean so? Is he playing dumb or is he really dumb? It's malicious or incompetents? Oh yeah, there's no question, but that's you know. That's the whole thing is You have these people saying oh. This is this. Is that mrs this? But it is really what they wanted to be in for them. They didn't care. What really happen because they had some one. Who is this, or witness who literally handing this a case on a platter. So all this stuff was inconsequential. So long as no one knew the truth, or at least could prove it, but now that this process is happening and they can't hide stuff anymore now they're in trouble. So now it's what we try to save face by by playing dumb yeah. They they spell it out form. They say it's any evidence that would help out the,
That's what the accused is not complicated, and this led investigator says well I'm not a lawyer. How would I know it would help them? I guess, if you're in law enforcement, you dont know What these legal terms are? You wouldn't know what evidence is, and maybe deserve that position, because I don't know, I guess true crime podcast weren't around In the nineteen eighty, so maybe he didn't know what exculpatory meant well I'd. It does reflect well on the other officers are out there, but I'm sure many of them right now, if not all of them are saying. Oh no he's trying to save face by playing dumb, but that's kind of a sad go to right. Now. I'm gonna play dumb suit to save face No, I don't know anybody could buy this unless they're, just that blind or they just want these guys to go down. Its around the same time, that more countries
Macneil he's just seems to be. They go to guy that people come to. He gets a call from our favorite person Debbie, and she says she wants to talk and macneil says. Well, I will only do face to face with another lawyer present as a witness and the whole thing has to be recorded because he knows her games. She agrees she actually comes in whose office she gives a sworn statement, an affidavit whatever you want to call it recounting everything saying it was all a fabrication. This is in night Ninety five yeah this is years and years later. This has been a long time coming and I mean do you give her any credit for is, this is someone who put a lot of people away lied. I mean involved in a conspiracy to make it look like she was being intimidated. As a witness
She's. Finally, coming along and saying I don't out there anymore. I want all pull back. I dont want it now, there anymore, I'm not standing behind what I said. She admits that she no, who sherry patroness she doesn't who dawn is half the people involved. She only testified because she claims she was being threatened by prosecutor haze, who said I'm in charge you with murder or accessory of so you have to testify form. she's saying the only reason this went down this ways because of norman haze ross gear by There may be another explanation here, because it's not like he saw her out, found her and then basically threatened her and it's making up a bunch of stuff right. No, she came to the defences side. First ass. She went to them and had information, and she said, laurie more, was not involved. I was there right now.
Tat. I know who did this and it wasn't lord riad, there you go. She said I, who did this and it wasn't laurie see somewhere along the line of trying to help, and I think this, tied into some of the issues that she has because She has a long medical history here shall we say, and one of the characteristics of one issues that she has one of her mental health issues is that she tries to be helpful. She could insert herself into situations to be helpful, but she also individual liar. So you can only imagine the kind of chaos that this woman can create, and that's why we are sitting here talking about this case today. So she drops this truth. whatever you want to call it macneil in the defence team- and at this point she has twenty six counts of perjury is obstructing trust. Is just this litany of charges pending against her
and she's out on bail when she makes this statement. What happens next turn yeah. She takes off and disappears so she's skipping bail, her bales revoked and she is now placed think number, one on the fbi's I's most wanted list. I don't know if it's most wanted and just michigan or nationwide, but She made it to the number one spot that takes talent on her breast. Well, she was being helpful before, but now he's literally flushed their whole case down the toilet. mean she's, put everything in danger here and she's taken off, Norman haze is a guy, does not take this kind of thing very well. So this is it's almost like. He wants revenge so he's going to try and bring the full weight of his office and others,
Team shall we say of these different entities that he's all wrapped up with they're all going down against her because, he's making their lives difficult when they had this thing, all wrapped up there All these guys convicted or at least the sum of implants, but I mean they had this thing- all wrapped up nice in neat another very person that got him there is the person whose unravelling at all so they're. Taking these appeals for mark, canter and terry more and a new de because norman haze is now a judge. They good media and they say hey, if the judge agrees or if the appeals process happens and they get access to a retrial, we will drop all of the process. Toil misconduct. Charges if you agree to just not recharge them and the new de so sure I'll call with that. Well, the appeals court grants the marines
and the new de says all right get ready for trial, so the defence is like Ok, I guess we should have got it in writing that he wasn't going retry them, but he says he wants to retry them, which the defences cool with, because now they're like well we're gonna get all these prosecutor or misconduct stuff aired out, because that's actually what we want to do, and not just that, but now they can, I guess, bring out the truth about Debbie blue the lid off this whole thing yeah once people know who Debbie really is and what her background is and what her issues are. Yeah that whole case is starting to look really bad. Like you said, it's prosecutorial miss conduct, but it might be worse than that because there are different agencies that were involved in what to be illegal activities regarding this case
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calm suggestion why code jen? Why so New DA's willing to go to court were willing to go to trial any says he we're going to use Debbie as his store witness this thinks of norman haze. It's almost like he's still around he's a judge, but you almost monday if he's not letting this go any time? the sky. No, no, there's, what's gonna happen right. Why would he reverse course like that? no, it happens all the time. If you don't get something in writing. It probably will blow back on you, but this really feels like Norman Hayes might have been involved. Do we know whether he was or not? Is there any indication? It would all be regulation and this case crazy that I'm trying to keep as much speculation out of it is possible but yeah all of the other witnesses, have either recanted or are gone this, you d doesn't have much and by the way they still can't find Debbie
see this is where it would have been easy for him just to say yeah. Let's just let everything go away now, but that's not the way they are they're going to play. It they're, doubling down whether it be ego, pride or just stupidity, and the judge that was overseeing this he's removed because he actually said. I think these men are guilty, so he got recused a recused himself. A new judge comes along asks the new de? What do you have because, according to all the filings, I see you have nothing and sensors no double jeopardy. You can't even charge these men with first to be murder. You're gonna have to charge them. A lesser crime and they ve already served eight years
bars. So anything you charge them with is going to end up being time, served a waste of the court's time and tax payers, money. this judge pretty much slaps this new de down and You d finally agrees to not continue. Did. He really need someone else to spell out forum who wasn't a defence team member I guess as this is sad nets just putting it. This is in the best light. This would be just sad in the worst light. This is just fuel to the fire for people who think our system is rigged and is corrupt. I just spoke to a prosecutor on the phone the other day. Super awesome. Lady and I wish I had read this book and had done my research, because I would have had a lot more questions for her because I really feel
We might be covered off little negative towards prosecutors and stuff, but it's really just towards this guy haze, and I want to make that clear, The the other thing is is in I've. I've sent this over email to lawyers, that of written into us attorneys. I say it So I know this right off. The bat by you know we're talking about a case. It's usually because there's something wrong about it. To start with and- there are many many cases that have come and gone with very good attorneys. Both sides that aren't going to be discussed on this show so we're talking about a percentage here, french cases right itself, If you're, an attorney, probably pretty cool right, I mean people just trying to do their job and do a well it, and that's one thing about people that right into us these attorneys is. You can feel the passion had they have for
not just what they do, but for the system and a lot of them believe in it, and that may be hard to hear, but I mean when you hear them spell when they spell it out for you, it makes them since when I see their emails it stores? All my faith, because I see some of the hardest working most truthful and honest people fighting the good fight. So I dont want this to part episode to make anyone think that I hate all prosecutors or anything. That's not the case it not by a long shot. Anyways mark and larry will be released from prison and they go on to sue the county and the police department. They will win two points, in five million dollars from the county and one point two five million from the police department. And this isn't just pay them also go
this is they had this come yeah, I mean it's a settled. They settled Truly, this is beyond the pale of what we're not what went on here now they did name prosecutor, haze and the suit and this lawsuit, but he was actually given absolute immunity for all of his actions during the time he prosecuted these cases, you might have heard me make that sort of off the cuff comment in part. One. Were you asked me? What can you do that and I laughed and said he can do whatever he wants and right here, absolute immunity. I've never heard something. That's called above the law.
Before that's not above the law, but I guess that's the legal tour. We are wife. Why try to fix something when it's broken right, yeah, hey we're going to leave it this way, because that's the way it was meant to be all these trials cost the state of michigan. Seven million dollars destroyed the budget of the small town. Were just stay huge scandal and scarred mark on the Prosecutions off. Is the police department everything so they can ruin lives, they can hurt the state, they can hurt the county, but it's really. We just need to protect these people here right because their important everything else the secondary. I wish that was not the case and I don't think it's the case in other places and other times
yeah the again this is here or there. There are places like this, but the vast majority can't be right out. Oh well, I'm sure all of you are wondering: what's happened to Debbie in two thousand and three She was finally located based on an anonymous tip and she was found and arrested. she's sitting behind bars, waiting for trial and get this. She wants a psychological evaluation to be deemed incompetent to stand trial. The irony of that We're right because she sang you, can't put me through a trial because I'm crazy This isn't something that is new but she's with it enough that she can play the system and she's trying to play it even up until the end she's going to some hearings.
Sleepy offered a plea deal because she's aging, her health is going down down the drain. and the judge and the core are trying to take pity on her and she has, very unlikely person and her corner terry, more the man she put away for life? He spent eight somethin years behind bars because of her. He came to her defence and he said: Debbie is a manufactured witness created by the prosecution they took advantage of mentally unstable person and made her a tool for the state should not be held accountable for the actions of the prosecution. They should be the ones held accountable.
She accepts this plea deal and she walks free under time served. So all of the villains in this story never had to face justice all of the people who were the innocence in a story? Did time and even came to the defence of Debbie Parmiter? It takes hartman and I don't really blame Debbie, that much because I what she did is inexcusable an unforgivable, but she wasn't in our rights. My you said she was with it enough Let's talk about go back real quick when she had that statement that she wrote recanting oliver testimony when she talked about it that help matters now need to see get any credit for that. I know she did a lot of damage, but does he get credit for that? Wish he trying to
the right thing? Eventually, I think she was trying to do the right thing think it was a day later. Dollar short. So do you give credit for that, because I don't think her statement. I don't know how much impact it had on the outcome of all the world. Her motivation, I mean you kind of wonder just based on some of the stuff. She said if she became enraged at norman haze and she wanted to do little pay she's not innocent in this case now, but she does have some issues which one could look out and say you might to give her some mitigating circumstances here, because she does have a number of issues? One of the things that I have about her was that she has anti social personality disorder. Now, of course, there are people out there who could literally come on to our programme and tell everyone perfectly what this means but what I read about it was
he will say and do things that are very unexpected or deviate from the norm. Very impulsive. There's lots to it, but really what it comes down to for me when I was reading about it- and this is a quote from psychology today, it said due to their manipulative tendencies, it is difficult to tell whether they are lying or telling the truth. Now, that's not excuse anything because That's where someone like norman Hayes should have recognized all of the other issues going on with her and said This is not a reliable witness and when all the defence attorneys were bringing this up to impeach her or get her off the stand, the judges and prosecutors said now, she's a fine witness and you cannot use her medical history against her
is something I tried talking to a couple of attorneys about, just because there comes a point when someone You are, I can see it. It's very very clear that the persons lying because in our she can move sex with her mind only there's more Then moving objects with her mind. There is so much just wacky staff that was in her diaries it. We could do a podcast episode, It's done all the crazy stuff that she was saying yeah and that might be a two parter, I guess what I'm getting at, though, is norman Hayes. Should have had a responsibility to not bring and as a witness. I know that means the end of his case, but this is why, in the end, it's obvious that he had some sort of agenda here: mere israel, hard. To get around that I mean it so big you can't you can't clear it here Go around this thing. It's so big, there's an agenda here. That means willing to side with stuff
makes no sense just to bring down some one. He wants brought down there it doesn't matter that doesn't make any sense because he's powerful enough to get it done and eagerly happened. So why not make it happen? She s the best way, to put it be she's unstable, and we saw that throughout the case because she come with one story, then she has a whole other story, implicating all these different people and then later she recounts everything she goes on, the run I mean she's all over the place. You know she's not stable, while her life isn't stable and it never was. She was homeless most of her childhood. And it wasn't intel she married that one husband who she ended up accused in that he stabbed her with scissors that she had like over it. decade of somewhat stability in her life, but other than that she's been on the go trying to survive, and that's one of the main
motives that people side as she was trying to get under police protection, so they would take care of her like that's her entire motive was just as somebody else payer bills, and they did they gave her. Room and bored and everything paid for everything, and then she was collecting so scared. I shouldn't have to do anything. comes down to it. Obviously, the The matter is: is that the prosecution? apparently didn't do anything wrong. That's that's how it goes down the books that, because nothing was done to norman hazy, or the man that followed him? The attorney general's office, didn't clear him, but just didn't pursue anything. According to norm haze, he says, will look, I've been vindicated and, of course the defence team is saying.
Just are saying that they didn't have enough evidence to pursue a case against you, but that isn't true. They they absolutely did have enough. Okay, so again, there are many people out there. They all have different opinions on this case, but There is absolutely enough information here to pursue action against norma hayes now how it would end up. I dont know, because at stolen come down to humans making decisions, but if you're just looking for evidence stuff, you can use, however effective it's all there it feels like the system is afraid to attack itself right. That's where fails to me, so we just got done. explaining how all these people were screw over by this system, but it's not just that in the end were left with a victim, jerry, Tobias who lost his life and whose family will never have justice. So Erin were
comes to laurie more. The first man that's convicted in this case the guide at bullied him in high school. Do you think that Secure haze went after him because he was opportunistic, happenstance was trying to This man do you find anything he did militias or was it totally him just trying to do his job, given the fact that more married, the prosecutors former girl friend, and he was known to be upset about this. I think that had to have been a factor, even if he he was legitimately following the law, the he thought he was supposed to be notified. justice in this case for jerry, Tobias. It just seems very coincidental that they had one lead, and that was the packages of meat in the truck
and that's all they really had, but while they they really focused on that as their only bit of evidence, so they could be then again, if you only have one led, you know in some key. If you watch forensic files, they can lead We find a paint chip. And they were able to match it to the paint that was coming alpha of a window sale of a home where someone had been murdered. I know it's crazy. What they can do and the question is was jerry, Tobias murdered? Did he have an overdose or what and I I think, it's kind of the us that he probably wasn't a scuffle that night they found blood in his nose and in his throat. So I I think that might prove that he was beaten up. I won't say, beaten to death,
if beaten up, there were a drag marks or scuff marks on his boots, he's laying in the back of his pickup truck and a very odd manner. There were footsteps leading away from the truck, so it's possible that somebody beat him up and then took him back to his truck and left them there are they responsible for his death at that well, if you are still alive, but we really don't know what happened to him other then he was beaten. So I think it's speculation from this point forward regarding how he died and that those circumstances, but I almost got the sense that will probably happened was he got beat up by one or more people. and then they decided drop. Em off at is at his truck and then they he laughed and didn't really give any thought to what would happen to jerry after they left him
I dont know that they were thinking. Oh he's going to die because it so called out here. I think they literally just drop them off, but that's just speck. nation they may very well of known he's, probably not gonna make it, but who knows, I mean, someone could have seen em and rescued him well before he died, Do you remember his blood alcohol content was point zero too, people were saying that at midnight he stumbling drunk and then the process It is time line. Is he's attacked somewhere between one and maybe two or three in the morning? So if his blood alcohol content If he's stumbling drunk. We can assume that his blood alcohol content is up above you know like point one five point, one eight and if thou the case. This guy could have been alive for a good, eight or more hours ish. Just
You know it's a loose number. We can't say he did this at this time and he died at this time, but it throws the whole prosecutions timeline off. That he was beaten and murdered at say why or two in the morning because of his blood alcohol content, it was just so low. So that leads me you believe that maybe he got into a fight somebody drug him to his truck drop them off and then he slowly froze to death over the course of the night or it's possible that he was alive and then remember, I mention that one cop shows up runs a license. Plate comes back, clean and less doesn't notice afoot hang out the back of a truck. Maybe he wasn't in the truck at that point. We're not It speculation- I just don't know if that would be a first to be murdered charge, even if he did get beat up by somebody It said that he was at a bar bragging
and he had thousands of dollars on buying everyone drinks. Maybe somebody took their opportunity to beat him up and try to takes money. Well. It makes a lot more sense than the prosecution's theory. Anyway, I would say so. Another thing that stuck out to me was Everyone in this case all the accused witnesses that were, I guess you could say on prosecution side due to whatever intimidation factors we want to bring up, all of them had taken polygraph tests and all of them were told that they failed their polygraph tests, meanwhile, are star witness, daddy, Debbie parliament. Here, past hers. How do you feel about that air? Well, do we know that they actually all failed, or was it more? Those tactics where they say failed. Now tell us what really happened: I'm sure as a mix of both, but the only
and that was told that she passed was Debbie. Everyone else was told that they were, they failed. I guess I'm too it's these things are absolute, their totally worthless it angry, knowing that our tax paying dollars pay for these things paper people to be trained to administer the tests. and that their given to anyone ever I dont believe in them. I think they're utter crap and If somebody were to say, oh just in your accuse, it is crime. Take a polygraph, I would I on a whole tangent of how I think, they're just worthless boxes with electrodes hooked up to him and then all you would hear is justin refused to take the polygraph and that doesn't bode well. It just makes you look bad, like you're, hiding something and has nothing to do with the that, I think they're utter garbage you I think there are those out there that still see it as a tool, I'm not sure we can ever just get rid of them by
as we know, they're not admissible in court, I mean that. Might we were were settling for something there, though that might just be good enough because someone will always think that they're useful in some way but yeah. If, if you're going by the score. In this case, the only person who passed is the one person proven to be an habitual liar? I know that people can beat the polygraph, but this really gis Sunk, the last nail in the coffin for me, so we just got done exe leaning how all these people were screw over by this system, but it's not just that In the end. Were left with a victim jerry, Tobias who lost his life and whose family will never have justice if you lloyd. This story here he thought that I was a mess trying to retell it. There is a book out there. It's called wicked
the witness stand. Its by marty link eye glass, stover. So much of all of this and I really tried to isolate down just the key factors of this case- There is so much more that we didn't say there is so much more detail that will inferior. you or spire you whatever about this case. the
Bonnie Lee basically came to hollywood with a dream. She wanted to be someone famous when she married after Robert blake. She thought her dream true until it all went wrong on may. Fourth, two thousand one at nine, thirty p m body was found in a car bleeding severely. She had been shot in the head within the hour. She was gone. night Bonnie went from victim to villain the press caldeira, her a liar, a scam as he was in the pornography business? She was in the prostitution business. She had criminal convictions all around the country in various states by who was bonnie mailing and who wanted her dead, listened to the execution of Bonnie lee bailey on amazon, music, apple, podcasts, spotify or you can listen early and ad free by joining wonder, replaced in the wondering app.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.