Jack Schafer (@jackschafer) is a retired FBI special agent, current assistant professor at Western Illinois University, and co-author of The Like Switch: An Ex-FBI Agent's Guide to Influencing, Attracting, and Winning People Over. [This is part one of a two-part episode. Keep an eye out for part two later this week!]What We Discuss with Jack Schafer:
- Why happy people make terrible spy recruits.
- How the Friendship Formula (Friendship = Proximity + Frequency + Duration + Intensity) can be used to build rapport in every human interaction.
- How to "name it and claim it" when manipulative techniques are being used against you to withstand and resist their effects.
- How to recognize friend and foe signals in others and make sure you're not inadvertently broadcasting the signals that mark you as an easy target for manipulation.
- What's really going on when someone grabs food from your plate without asking, or takes their sweet time getting out of the parking spot you're clearly waiting for.
- And much more...
Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/557
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
At Temple. Universities, Fox School of business, experiences, go beyond education. We provide real world opportunities through partnerships with global businesses and access to Philadelphia, top employers. You'll, learn by doing build your ex her teeth and advance your career goals at Fox. We do more than tell you how the business world will change we How're you to be the change gets today at box, dot. Temp Don t you coming up next on the job in harbinger show if people share the same space there's a mutual liking that occurs. People are mutually tracked it to one another who just simply share the same space him enough Kay with one another, but they share the same office and they see each other daily. Then their proximity causes have mutual attraction neutral predisposition to light somebody,
welcome to the show, I'm Jordan Harbinger Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in that conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts. Entrepreneurs, spies, psychologists, and the occasional billionaire investor, national security, adviser or neuroscientist? Each episode turns our guests. Wisdom into practice advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. New to the show where you want to tell your friends about it. Now always appreciative: when you do, we ve got the starter packs. Jordan Harbinger outcome. Slash start those are a taste of everything we do here on the show sorted by popular episodes that today Uncle Jack Jack. For back on the show everyone's favorite FBI agencies that really my uncle but you'd, never guess by the level of snark in all of our conversations
to be one of our nations top by catchers. You heard him before teaching us about visitation and how to get the truth out of people now a two part or on getting people to like and, more importantly, trust us. This is a great episode with tons of practical for any, in any profession where they work with or deal with other people, which I assume is pretty much every single one of us last year, tons of practical. Let's get cracking by the way, if you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing thinkers authors, creators every single week, it's because of my network I'm telling you dig the well before you get thirsty, build those relationships before you need em. I'm teaching you how to do it for free over at Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash course in most of the guests you here on the shelf. They subscribe to the course come join you'll, be in sight company, where you belong now: here's Jack Schaefer, let's assume for this one, People have not heard the last one to go over all the principles again, but I would love to get some start off with some background on your job at the FBI, recruiting
Turning enemy spies, I know that's it grows- duration of you get a lot of other things to do our growth simplification. I should say bridle, that's a lot of what I did the is so tell us about how that kind of work and I would love to know how you get selected for something like that. Do they do say this guy understands people go an enemy spies or are they just kind of like Schaefer, is not doing anything have go, get around that's kind of the second, then, if you do well, you stay and if you do well, they give you another job Ok, so are they thinking because it seems like wouldn't want to just test that out on people, because what theirs to be a way to put you through the ringer without saying, go chase this really important russian ass and then they go world out was the wrong guy for the job he made us like a bunch of different. It's a garbage. Can you go try now, like that's, not really riots and ten?
Well, after one guy I'm trying to think what they do. Is you got you a training programme first, and they determine whether you have the skills, the social skills, because a lot of recruitment has to do with social skills. You have to be able to I've done if I would somebody up ever empathize with somebody and, above all, you need to learn what that person needs. Above all, because happy people make terrible spot, you cannot recruit a happy person if you recruit a happy person. What are you gonna give you look for somebody who need something they need health care. They want their kids come to school, United States added income for retirement. You can give them that exchange reclassified information. In fact, I I spoke with a russian KGB after the time and he asked we would
king about what it takes to recruit a spy and was kind of a careful conversation, and I asked him if I put a bag of money in your. Where would you show me caused by the information- and he looked at me and he said Mister Jack? Would you give out find information. If I put a bag of money in your laugh, I should move course. I would. Let me see what makes you think I would and I asked her. What would it take to recruit you as a spot and he said nothing. I have everything I need. I need nothing. I have a good family. I live in a good apartment to go to the best shop. I get all the privileges in Moscow that are available to somebody. I have no need. You need to
somebody that need something knows very interesting. Did you ask him for a referral? Yes, I did. Your organization is pissed off at you right now, I'll start that it had smiled and said. I cannot do that, and I said, Sir, you can't do it. He said Well, I won't do it. Ok, this that's a better answer, so we cannot be back and forth. And I learned a lot about recruitment just by talking despise the psychological make up of somebody. So if I want to catch a spy, I look for unhappy people if there's an American who spying against America for foreign government, I look for unhappy. People is happy. People do everything they can to maintain their happiness said people do everything they can do to be. right to get themselves into a different set of circumstances. Yeah. Yes, that's interesting, so you have to be able to read someone's vulnerability, but not just that sort of
jewishness momentary, vulnerability like when I look at Russians buys right, and this is from like news research so take it would for what it's worth when I look at stories about russian spies. They find Idiot who's been cheating on his wife in Korea and they get compromise right. They get photos in and they say, I'm a ruin, your happy life or your somewhat happy possibly so happy for cheating on your wife life. If you don't give us this, but you're it sounds like you're, looking for more bigger It sure vulnerability like this guy is depressed and he knows that his kids have no future because his situation he's in a dead end, or he knows that the tick We train is up or that the Soviet Union is is all but a foregone conclusion that this is over with. That seems harder to find than just getting some pictures of some guy, shagging, mistress and in another city?
That's? What behaviour analysis comes into play because a lot of times what we do is we looked to see. The first thing we look, it is the people who are in a position to give us a good information. Has you don't want to recruit somebody who doesn't have the information you need? The second thing we do is we look at their person to find out whether they break social norms? Are they supposed to go out at night? If there's a curfew in that atmosphere? That comes with it now, and those people are out at night. They broke the social nor they broken rules. If they're not supposed to be cheated on their wives and gone out and got a clubs, they broken a roof. There, that's bullshit, drink, broken a real nice was small programme rule. So we look for people that break social norms and then tell them to see how far or how many arose norms no break. How do you test them? You give them different scenarios like you would ask them
to go in and bring out of telephone book, not replaced by telephone watches, bring me a telephone book of your password. If they say ok, then they broken a social norms. That careful book is of much value to us, but- They broke the shuffle, nor so you're. Looking for somebody who will so this is what is that call the Chinese! Do this in their error. I read about this. I guess the korean war, they would say something like they don't sit there and beat you up and ask it to be true a country? They say what do you think America is perfect in the persons as well? No countries perfect. Ok, right down the list of ways in which you think America is not perfect. When you re on this in this escalating set of compliance rights, are you saying Gimme a phone book and they go around, I'm gonna be rough, even if I get caught do and that its they're gonna be pairs, but there as long as you don't. I gave it to the FBI that they're gonna be like you took that out of the office, take it easy I read, I should have taken out of the office right, so they can
ash analyzed that small or medium level of breach, and then he said hey Gimme the names of the KGB? What is called the ice heard about this in the Americans? It was the KGB. Now she s, army, ok, so give me that names, given that a mere bosses who are doing the intelligence work, who are what is it called don't have diplomatic cover. Is it an icy right, not official cover? the people, there was to be undercover, yeah right and then like so really they're, giving you this escalate. Giving into this escalating set of demands ran right and once you get them to do things for you, it's hard for them not to do something higher for your cousin, you'll tell him. What would your boss think if you knew you smoke about a telephone book? You think you're in trouble now you might be in bigger trouble, but the time they want to do it because there's a reward at the other end right, the dangling carrot of happiness. We look for fighting
I remember one officer- KGB also needed healthcare first kit and they didn't have that medical treatment in Russia he said. Can I get medical care in United States? Of course you can, but there's a price you have to pay for the net is giving classified information so that an incentive see, look need some people, just its ideological need, sometimes especially what idea allergy and is similar. When you talk about the Chinese, the what we do is approaching and say you're, not a trainer. Your government is the bad people. Your people are good. Your culture is good. Your country is good, it should governmental spare show. In order for you to be a patriot, you wanna take your government down and restore them.
so the more acceptable society that makes a lot of sense. So they're not really traders their patriots, You want to help them rationalize their decision, but also refrain their decision into something else. Re like you're, right, Orton, you're, not betraying your country. By giving this away, you're saving yours, life. What could be a high it? What's a higher calling, yes pushing paper for the CIA or saving the life of your son, and then it's like well. This is obviously- I'm doing is giving them a phone book. You now I'm being a good dad outlets, basically yeah you're, just trying to look look for ways to satisfy beads. And that's first thing I look at when I looked to recruit. Somebody is they happy are unhappy if they're happy people, the chances are recruited murmur and not very slim,
It seems like, then there should be almost an entire division of counter intelligent people, making sure that intelligence officers are happy satisfied there's gotta be a whole leg. anything going on in your life, I mean yes, they check for game. Debts, and do that old background check thing, but it seems like somebody should be monitoring the health and
well being of all of my family members. If I hold a bunch of classified information ran in foreign countries, they do take care of their elite intelligence officers by giving them the best departments by giving them access to the best stores, with the most goods that education and what s interesting about it. What I learned about the KGB is people tend to hire people like themselves, so we hire those who are most like us, so you know one KGB personality. Typically, you gonna know all KGB personalities because they hire people like that, but in the United States and more difficult because we have-
diversity of cultures in our intelligence. Show not one personality fits all like in foreign countries. Typically interesting, so in a way having a diverse workforce of intelligence agents makes us harder to penetrate, because you can't just sort of stereo type the personality, what I've got people from all walks of life, Ok is kind of hard to pin down when it comes to personality. Yes, it's tough weed, have a universal personality, like other countries, do or universal culture where more diverse, so seems like from that premise- Writer- recruiting other people and also testing different FBI personnel. To do that, counter intelligence or the recruiting a foreign spies. That sort of presupposes- and I assume you agree that social skills. Are you learn a ball but also teachable skill, right, sort, can about sales, recruiting of spies and dating kind of stuff. It would you agree with
I absolutely wooden. That's what kind of motivated me to write the lights, which is because I recognise all the tools I needed or what was required to learn to recruit spies, and I said well, our doing is developing relationships with people and then influencing those people, the same skills that we can use to recruit spies. We can also use in business, dating family and all anytime, you have to interact with somebody. You can use the same skills, I'd love to break that down learn able and teachable elements of this. I know that's what you do in the lakes which, but I wanna there's a few really cool juicy morsels that I would love to talk about. One you broke down formula for friendship, which is great. I don't think I've seen that anywhere in such a practical type of delivery. Friendship is a friendship equation. Right friendship equals frequency proximity intensity.
duration right. Can we discuss each one of those in what they do and that'll be the worksheets for those listening, we're like wait, I've got to write this down, don't stop jogging, don't stop driving it'll, be in the worksheets for the episode friendship equals frequency, proximity, intensity, plus duration. Take us through this year there was some genes would come to us in the behavioral now ass his unit, and they would ask us how do you recruit people and we told them just ingratiate yourself, developed friendships and then meal, intensify the relationship and then usually station It was to find out what their person needs. So, Joan of our own, I got together and we thought about what goes into person. Relationships were
least common denominator. Let you need to maintain personal relationships, and so first thing we thought about. Was proximity unique proximity to a person to have a relationship either virtual war will proximity, because, if somebody's in one Saturday and Sunday since then another city- and they don't know each other exist, then they need proximity to know that each other exists and without proximity there's no relationship, what now digital proximity, a kind of funny, we were talking about this pre show about there's people that I'm friends that I've met on the internet ten years ago and talk to a bunch, and I can't when we in person. We go once all the time I saw you. Never we ve never met, and it's mine boy, I'm wondering now about digital proximity. I assume you ve thought about this at this point where you can beat, and was somebody via Zimmer squad It's like we are now and if we had meetings every week after a decade of like to think that we'd be pretty close,
and even if we ve never met in person, bright showed. The proximity can be virtual proximity also because All you need to do is no. Each other exists, and there are certain things that I attach when you have proximity is. Is it people share the same space? There's a mutual liking that occurs, people are mutually practice to one another who just simply shared the same space. They may not communicate with one another, but they share the same office and they see each other daily. Then that proxies
it causes that mutual attraction mutual predisposition to light somebody. So the second thing you need is frequency. He had to be frequently by the person, but that doesn't necessarily make a relationship which you have to do is also have the racial solve your frequently with somebody, and you have to reckon with that person, then there's more likely a relationship will develop. So the more you spend time somebody the more influence you have over that person. So if you think back up all the good relationship Had the past. Those people spend a lot of time with you right. That's why you're closer friends with the people that you go hiking for a week with, then somebody that you saw once a week for twenty minutes, while your checking into Europe the hotel, your Jim, yes, principle there and the last thing that we look tat was there has to be some attention to their relationship
the first one proximity, it's either there, not frequency. You can measure whether a watch, her hash mark duration, you can do the same thing is measurable, but intensity is not measurable objectively, but you can use Nonverbal, to measure intensity and one of the non verbal, in fact the strongest nonverbal intensifier to relationship is mutual gaze. We'd, look at people, we light and we don't look at people without light and when we look at people we'd like it releases oxytocin, which is a binding Parma. So any if you have a dog, if anybody has a dog, what that dog does it take? We will go up to you. They are right in your eyes for a long period of time, the site there looking deepened yours. what you doing is their releasing oxytocin in their mind in their brain and Europe.
So when you stare back are releasing all she tells him and that's what creates the band? between you and your animal, it's almost like, there's been some so, around this, and I don't know how strong the scientists but people were saying. There's these scientists hypothesize that It's actually just learned to manipulate us over. However, many thousands of years domestication like they know how to release oxytocin era. Brain there's, like amateur, lay down on the floor and stare at my human for three hours and at some points, he's gonna, look right at me and right in my eyes and thinking about it scientifically, obviously, but it's been working dogs. There are more likely to do that. Are the ones that got domesticated. It's probably the same with cats but I think we all know if you ve had a dog and you ve had a cat dogs are much better at creating that bind cats only with eight. They want to bond when their hungry and then they want you to leave me well. Dogs need their human master for food and care and love and all those things
shit, and they figured out a way how to do it and that's why people are show attracted to the animals, because that actually Tellson S Bonded develops. So I found it quite interesting, so it works the same way with people you know you say young lovers: they look and each other's eyes for a long period of time, they're sitting there staring at one another well they're, just releasing their oxytocin developing that body Linda. Yet now, if I'm lying in bed- and I look at my Wife- She'S- either set good ass what's wrong or she's gonna, ask me if I fell asleep with my eyes open somehow, what's wrong with you, you staring at me, there is something to be happy as you see all their couples in restaurants, they know look into one others eyes, anyone something called the constable quiet, comfort, quiet, comfort. I know that person that person May I go anywhere, I'm not going anywhere to weaken it.
What we want to do and still have the assurance that the persons gonna be there. We don't let them take those steps anymore. So people often mistake there for a couple days ago, along because the ones read the paper. The other was eaten, or vice versa, something in say now: that's why comfort their wages very comfortable one another very true. I remember when I was dating Jen We would go out and we would say we would see these couples in both around their phone or one would be like your legs at reading, the magazine or the newspaper on the other ones eating or look at their phone, and we said, let's never be those. Apples, there's wasting all this precious time they have with one another. Now we go out my jen hey. Do you want to do that and you were a kid she's on Instagram and I'm really ready at or I'm reading. You know the newspaper and I realize now it's not all. We don't care at each other anymore. It's I don't need them.
Of her brain, decreasing oxytocin in synchrony with my brain because we're married and it's not like we never do that. I just dont want to do right now want to eat my food. I want to look at those articles, I'm here all week, right yeah, that's basically what happens, but that aren't you. such is the initial binding agent that gets people together until longer bonds can take hold. Sort of crafts, the lay the groundwork for the emotional connection and all the other things that older couples or more long term Patients rights already have in place, or maybe the the neural wiring is kind of already all there did not yet also occurs when we engage in reproductive activities in a boat people release endure the oxytocin, and that creates the bond turn that intimate relationship and that's because you need a bond between two people. If there's a baby in the office in the old days,
So they wanna get banned right in and I believe that it happens when breastfeeding and things like that. So mothers in babies are especially bonded that way, as that's a touchy so because a lot of women now don't breastfeed and they want to argue that. That's not the case, and I will hold up my hands and say the science is whatever it is, and I am not up on that. So don't send me angry emails about how kids are not bonded with their mothers. They didn't breastfeed? I don't want to. I don't, have a dog in this fight so well what we say. that's one way right to develop. You can also do with touch all the baby caressed. The baby talk to the baby, looking the baby's eyes, so we can look at other alternative ways to create that band outside breastfeeding Your listening to the Jordan Harbinger Shell with our guest Jack Schaefer, we'll be right back. Thank you for listening two and supporting the show. I love that you listen to this. I love the feedback I get from ya. Please do concern
supporting those who support, as we put all of the sponsors, all those codes, all those urls they're, all on one page, Norton harbinger dot com. Slash deals is where you can find it and don't forget. We ve got worksheets for many. So if you want some of the drills and exercises talked about during so those are all in one easy places. Well that linked to the worksheets is also in the show notes, Jordan, Harbinger come slash, podcast now back to Doktor Jack Schaefer. Tell me about how the chinese use this approach, the friendship, equation, knowingly or unknowing. They were rigged. A bunch of they are recruiting a bunch of scientists to give away I support and unclassified information, it seems like they have a pretty good mastery of this. Our earlier exam was the Chinese during the korean war. Obviously they ve only got and better at this type of intelligence gathering the very, very good at it and what they do is well. Let's talk about the in inverse relationship between frequency and duration.
You spend a lot of time with a person you don't have to spend as much duration with that person to maintain their relationship. So if you don't see that person for a long time, we haven't seen your friends forty five year, you see them and you go out and have dinner. The next thing. You know you're the in the restaurant for five hours and you don't like I spent five hours and then sitting here and that's because the frequency was low there for the Duration of each time you meet, has to be higher to maintain their relationship. So with that in mind, one outside this goes over to China is invited to go over and they typically of one person assigned to the scientists. The quota called translator are minder and what happened
is there. A person now has proximity with you, but since the frequency is low, you only off there for maybe five days for seven days, so the duration has to be high, so they wake you up in the morning and there with you until they put you to bed at night and during that time, what are they trying to do? You're trying to develop a rapport with you get you to like them, and it turns out that one of the ways to do that is through common ground shelf. They want to find out where you from Hamley kid. You have what you religion is. What your past times are. Your Hobbes are two scientists great surprise. What the chinese minder has the same interest to develop the common ground and also what they want to do. Is they want to use a less attention to get your birthday, your wife's birthday, you kids birthday your holidays, it you were celebrate and that's for use
so they're gonna illicit, all information from you and then what they do is what the intensity. Of course they have there with you. day other flattering you there, half the better, you they're doing all the things that are good and it's funny that some ugly shy just go to China, and I'll asunder. The most handsome people in the world, as I just outside this crisis, is the odd you been ignored, your whole life in the United States. But when you go to China, the models are coming out from the woodwork to come and try and eight you, yes and then you I'll, give you a presentation and of course they used solicitation again and the walk up to you because you're the expert even call the China. Now you have to there's a predisposition for humans to prove that an expert in the field, so what better way to prove it then to talk about it shows
this will come up to a Chinese. Scientists will come up to her one of american scientists and say I've been working on this problem. Can you help me with this? Can I get your advice? The Benjamin Franklin Effect right asking What are you guys yeah then, and then what they say is all you made a mistake here. He almost predisposed to correct make their correction because you have to prove your neck, but what if you say, I dont know how that works. Then longer network the hour. I can't tell you because that would play I'm not supposed to tell you how to solve this problem. Will thanks jerk yeah, I'm asking you for advising you are keeping a close to the vast. What's your problem? Aren't we colleagues right yes and they develop such good report with you that you feel obligated through should provocation, there's the need to reciprocate
so they do something for you. You had this over one. We need to do something back for them, so these are these psychological techniques. To put psychological pressure on you to make their correction, so you say all you have to make this correction here, so they got the answer to one bit of knowledge. They do this. What a hundred scientists they have a hundred bits of knowledge, so we can get by bits and pieces right. So it's like a jigsaw puzzle aware if I think just given in one piece of this ten thousand bees puzzle. It's not a big deal if they ve I figured out the other nine hundred ninety nine pieces. This is really going to change anything, I'm just being polite by giving it to them. Yes, but if they do at ten thousand times and they get a different piece of the puzzle, every single time we ve given them the whole puzzle. Yes, here and now what happens? Is that say, Europe lecture was show successful. We're gonna, give you the Big Ball
room next time. I wanted to bring your wife with you this next time you can shoot. with all the wonders of China, all expenses paid, of course, and so sensors no proximity when their sides is leaves they have to increase the frequency duration in intensity, so what they do with those sent you a birthday car little birthday present to you, maybe your wise. If you're jewish celebrate Cosette, you Hanukkah sent you all the holidays. If your Christian, doesn't you Easter Christmas cards, Santa Claus to the kids doesn't little presence? so while you dont have proximity, they take advantage of frequency, duration and intensity to maintain their relationship right. So, if we think about friendship equation like a set of buckets on a scale right. We have to keep them filled up and if we
can't keep one of em fold up. We have two overcompensate in the other buckets yeah, that's that's actually getting analogy. So what would happen if I weren't depraved these scientists came back from China and say was anything unusual now? Did they asked you any classify? Questions now just so nice and I'll go right now on our sons rotten. So now I ask: was their production and who was it with well one translator the whole time morning noon and night. Okay, so they were with you and they were frequently with you and the duration was extreme and there was a lot of intensity and they got your birthday and they got oh yeah yeah. I told him that the shock lash right as well, of course, not so based on just asking questions about their personal relationship We can tell whether there was a relationship develop between that scientists and that the minder, then I can tell whether they ve been elicited
It seems like for them and for anyone doing this, it must be kind of a lot of work. right, because You know someone pretty well by the time they ve already set foot on chinese or american soil. You don't really they're gonna be like right like what, if I'm physicists and I've got this reputation and then China- and you set me up with this kind of intellectual guy who's married and has a little kid just like me, and I go are at man. I want to go to the nastiest grosses establishments you have here in Shanghai. I want to do rails of illegal drugs all night long and I'm gonna blow off the call tomorrow and you're going to live for me because we're gonna have an awesome type which they gonna have to either that same guy has to go along with it or he's like gotta go back and go
We need one of the twenty year old guys to go out with Jordan crises we wild. I can't be doing this authority, you know what thou well well, what I do it before the scientist go. I do bring them to the personal relationship in this. This is what they're gonna do to develop relationship with you be aware: dont give out information, that you don't have to and when you leave they're gonna send you letters and cards gives beware of that report, all those things because they are recruiting you to give over secrets, Ok, that makes sense, because a lot of people got report african Hanukkah card. Why, in the reason, is because you in your line, encounter intelligence, behavioral analysis, you're. Looking for beginning of the ladder right, because your prior not going to see the later elements of the latter, no one's gonna report. You know you're right. They gave me
Joe Holiday cards. But now I'm selling them of the new agreement will have their right. You can only see the beginning of the ladder of the compliance ladder, the innocuous stuff. So if you are getting reports of a you know, we got another fruit basket and it's delicious and it's definitely expensive. You know that, or go, and after me pretty hard if I start reporting my third trip to China this year, except I'm staying at the five hotels in Shanghai and Nanjing, I'm flying private jet. from Beijing to Shanghai and all around the country? You know that their coming after me hard and I'm just saying I doing my about big shot around here? But here's your stupid report? F B, I you know now: ok, Jordan is being pursued, take additional steps to make sure that he doesn't seldom parts at whatever blueprint well we're just make you aware. I say Jordan, let's talk, but how chinese recruit people and after I tell you how they recruit people, let's go over what you,
and what they don t you and China, and then all of a sudden you go my wall. It looks like the recruiting me. Yes sure does so we can do to thanks Jordan. We want you to continue to be recruited or do we want you to stop shop, they dont garniture, yeah or if you want to be our spied, you wanna spy for me, then we'll let them continue to develop you until they asked you for classifying them will know they are looking for and then why do I feed them? Fake stress, yeah! Ok, yes, that's interesting! There's a lot of ways to handle whiskers lot of play action there when you being recruited that makes sense, but if Jordan says I'm too nervous, I don't want to do it Lastly, what don't go to China anymore? Yeah, stop her loser security, clear right!
say the most fun option is to continue being recruited and wind in the iron and give them fake stuff and then keep them super super happy and keep cash in those checks, rats or whatever that's what we hope for their fur. Although I can't I can imagine the gas. Get older and have more relationships with. LEO in have kids. The light appealing. It is for me to go to China and risk them figuring out what I'm doing and keeping me in a dry prison cell or not address, because you happy and you want to maintain your happiness. You don't want to do anything. That's going to watch, jeopardize your happiness, so you have a wife and kids in a nice house in the nice job. Why would you jeopardized there to do something risky, the loser, happiness so what's interest here, though, is if the edit it was weakened, doesn't have to be chinese. The chinese people right now we're listening. I come out. Why are we always the bad guys if I'm going to North Korea? But it's a bad example if a gorgeous roman right,
and I'm being recruited by o monies intelligence all the time there look four unhappy people, because I'm more vulnerable groups and so as a counter intention? agent or double agent or whatever you'd have may be, as an FBI officer agent. It's also better, if I'm not that. We because that I'm willing to do more risky stuff. So your car, battling over these very recruiting people right, because The thing that makes them more likely to take the extra risk for country is all the thing that makes them more recruited ball to the enemy right as we look for risk takers, yeah and people who are happy, take less risk so that that's right that you're doing with intelligence all the time this was in any thing: confidential or intelligence services use the same techniques because fur here, human behavior gross cross culture. So what what our job is to make people aware of how they could be recruited,
once they know how they can be recruited, then they become aware of it and are somehow name climate change all they could say. Ah I see the technique you use and I have a name for it and I'm gonna prevent you. doing their name and in climate, that's good, so that's kind of like the site, logical awareness of whatever may be a cut of bias or or an event, that's happening. If I naming claim it run its less power what is it? Theoretically, it's less powerful works, less effectively against They want to know how to practice their. Yet little car dealership talk to a salesman. They will use all kinds of psychological shales techniques on their cost The most show my son wanted to learn these tactics of behavioral analysis slice. It let's go to a car dealership. We went into the car dealership. The car dealership talked my son and issues. Are you using the puppy dog technic
you set it out loud yeah, he said why I said David Climate. I told the Ladys pulls the name, your mind, you, namely your mind, dummy We were not around or less thought it. He says. Oh you're, trying to show me a payment instead of a car is a lot of cartels. Missy. I could show you a payment of four dollars a month, while I'm not interested buying a payment, I'm interested in buying a car. Let me worry about how much you caution, so they must but they all you're trying to sell me a payment set of car and the guy finally says wait a minute you know too much about how our salespeople were just last year, because either your car salesman yourself or your coming from Jack Shea First Class and we ve had thirteen of those people here this we get out of here. I could get my damn car kids it again. the way my son learned there just through just doing it. That makes sense. Even so,
doing that with telemarketers. Obviously, car dealerships a great place to do that, because there's nonverbal stuff happening to you sit down, and they go all. I've gotta ask my manager the appeal to authority right. Oh, you can't do that in the near: that's theirs lot going on in a car or a mattress dealership, a car dealers. Probably maybe they're easier to combine, possibly more so I don't know I've never bought a matters in person their difficult to negotiate with a mattress. Yes, yes, indeed, one wonders if you show me a mattress. Without a bet, frank worker nonsense. Is there a site shallow may occur without an injured they saw what's wrong with their take you there net technique, is you she'll the deal, and then you asked for something extra near my son recently bought elections, and I was with him- and I said sure, would like a nice coffee cup with lectures on the left.
and covered the lectures, logo goggles or I ll answer. I wrote it in only have seven hundred of these in the dealership. So let me see if I can find a clean want, so what you do He always Angela lecture by the car he set out by the car. I'll wait a minute. I need the under coding rush proofing. I need tat, but Can you throw their while our? I was really an insult. That's just a technical, because emotionally that salesman's his I've sold it right out my commission its mind to lose yes reminder loose. This is the Jordan Harbinger fell with our guest Jack Schaefer, we'll be right back and now for the conclusion of part, one with Jack Schaefer, I suppose you can push it a little too far. Right like all, I need extended warranty. Why can't really do that? You're gonna have to find that sweet spot where they can prove
without any real authority. I mean the mug is obviously such an easy. When, but even something like, can you throw it? there are times I don't know of cars, Converse Parotitis, they probably do, but if there isn't one hey, can you throw one in the trunk? Oh, I have to go to the shop and get that are I go to the shop and get its pride to allow more tyres are two hundred bucks. If we get it from, there from the dealer cheaper. you got it anywhere else. While you do there was real estate because we bought a house, and I While we need this, we need that. We did this like a push in a little by little by little- and I said you know, be nice- I'm a patio cover and the real stairways it. No more there. You go that way. Yes, we'll get one, so we got as much as we could use in their technique. Let's talk about friend and fellow signals. These our interesting and some of them are a little bit. I don't want to stay obvious because things things are obvious to different people. You know smiles. last time you are on the show about head tilts and eyebrow flashes and
contact and extended. I gazed things like that. Touch touch acceptance, but I'd love to talk of. how these are used because you're in the book you give the example for example, I hadn't really thought about, which is how street people so homeless or houseless people use these that's per Galileo cycle. I think a lot of people think about this year, especially in a big, city, there's a lot of people on the street that are looking for handouts and they can read people very well if you give my contact and you give them my eyebrows flash, they know that you're soft target they will. Will you and how'd you do you give up something? And how does the person know that you're soft target, because when we eyebrow flesh That is a signal, a long distance signal that says, I'm not a threat, so that tells a person that you're not a threat. But, of course the other person that is targeted, use, gonna eyebrow flash back. Let you know that
not a threat and then typically the children had no smile and what the head till does. Is it does the crowded artery, which is very vulnerable party body, so you're you're telling that person. I don't fear you, because I will express my profound and get back the animals dogs do their shoes to come home. What is done to search until his hat and what's the owner nodded there, not a frightful itself, a friendship or also dongle flip over stretched? They're coming right? That's more obvious sort of showcase of our ability for sure yeah. The other example you in the book was interesting about bad neighborhoods right and it's the same advice that you get when you look at self defense, where it don't look down Don't have your phone out don't ever headphones and look up be aware, walk with a purpose that kind of thing to make yourself less of a target for your kind of. King growing, all the like ability, Nonverbal, Senor, sort of reversing those, yes or at least making them neutral. So when you
somebody who's panhandler. You were trying to wipe your windshield. What you want to get more. call the urban scar, just the opposite, that a browser get that type John Number cheap muscles and their personal look again say that guy's not pray, he's not gonna, be a soft target and will not get anything from him. I'm gonna go find. Somebody else was more vulnerable, despite tourists who go into big cities A lot of trouble is typically from small towns and everybody waged at each other in a very friendly, and they share all these friends signals eyebrow, flash head tail and smiling and they get along. trouble. They have learned the urban skull when I, If you have any thoughts on this, because you did do a lot of counter intelligence during
the cold war. When I travel I used to live in the former EAST Germany, it wasn't EAST Germany went to when I was there, of course, but it was a few years after that I've been to North Korea. I've been to other, formerly socialists, didn't currently socialist countries. One thing that the people seem. Having common. Is you don't see a lot of neighbours or people talking to each other on the streets, interaction is very minimal. Eye contact in friendly non verbal communication, kind of doesn't really even happened, and even when the when I was in EAST Germany has there for a long time when I was free, to neighbours that I didn't know other it's in the neighborhood would say: why are you waving at him? You don't know him and I'd go, but isn't he like gives two houses down from you and he'd go yeah, but we don't talk to each other, especially that guy at say. Why any go you're too friendly? You just don't understand and that had to be cut. in east german remnants left over behaviour,
because if you are in my neighborhood in the United States, even if your three blocks away of euro cutting your lawn in your lawnmowers off or even if it's on I'm wave and I'm saying hi, I'm smile and at you, but in EAST Germany, they were really not about that. There was like don't even make eye contact with neighbours that you don't know. That was a new Yorker a couple days ago, and I'm walkin in Manhattan Times Square there's like thousands of people there and nobody's looking at each other. they're just looking straight ahead. There minded no business, they got open skies are and they just go back. Then you could tell the terms yeah. They're, looking around it IRA Flash Flash away so you know the people and the people that are from New York. Less common signals of, I guess- Lena Sore or openness that I read and I thought were pretty interesting- was one was whispering. You know that makes sense, but you don't think about it too much only like close friends, are couples or closed
eggs maybe whisper to each other, as you have to get closer, and especially when you talk about whispering written someone's, yet it's pretty much only done with family or a significant other ran or friends, good friends if to students or shit in in my class and they lean over whispered a one another. I know that there's a relationship there until some time, call a modest how long you guys been goin out loud. You know work together this obvious yeah yeah, it's obvious. You don't have to hold hands in class in order for yeah Jack Schaefer, no the year together. What they're out you say or what they trying to do is one or should I want sailor room. The other must sit on the other side of the room and they sit down look at each other. Always look at each other, sometimes just stare now do that nonverbal signals ice and show you two guys you're a couple girls or whatever couple yeah. How did you know We just showed a partial. We wouldn't bright. Be associate, it's one, another ass? It you don't it virtually yeah. That must be really,
Because you can see everyone in the realm yeah pretty easily, when you at the front of the class yeah I was looked for, then I tried it. It's it's just my way of saying and its two b, I teach behavioral. Now she was my way shake your signally anytime. You exist, you are signalling to people nonverbal what you're thinking and what you're doing or what? What you might wanna do was it you, who told me it was either you rob injury coin? I used to work with. You said something like you're, always communicating Nonverbal, even if you think you're not right yeah. I absolutely and that's really looked for those new watches. You meant. food forking earlier food forking was another one right in that totally exaggerate. I dont go. I dont to hang out with If I'm having lunch with you for the first time, I don't got all that looks good. Let me get some of those fries. You know, that's something I only deal with close friends and family, and even sometimes it depends on the friend right. What we did was I discovered this because I was out my family in the house what my daughter enough
sign in my wife and I had the succulent shrimp, should I get shrimps and white young leaving that circulate one for the lash, just, alas, good taste. That is surely right so behold, my daughter, do tat, looks good reaches over a fork, stamps that lead by my plate and Egypt, and I looked at her like nothing. I was an angry. I was mad measured by while I should be tested, but I was I sit all this because we have a relationship. right, you sure each other's food, a relationship is only slightly damaged by the fact that I was saving natural or the last piece of chocolate cake it ass. He thought You drive our way home thinking how I want the last piece of chocolate cake. Somebody shaken that's right, that's right like if you weren't my aspirin you'd, be out on your ass right now. You know what I like to do sometimes is prey like little behavioral jokes. We work with our
a colleague of ours that I knew would not let anybody food for right. So I told them. The new guy is richer grab some off his plate. Need it the guy went ballistic after this. The answer he put his hands up says: don't touch my book tasted. It look so good You are your own pulled, don't pay my! So what do you think comes from like. Where do you think those people who are so resistant to that type of think is outlet growing with a lot of brothers and sisters, you take your food and what's goin on our. I grew up with ten kitchen, my family, and we did a lot of food for yeah without foreign, yet without forts we'd reach over just grab start their survival it's a large family, maybe it's a small family. Maybe The only child are not used to people interacting that way. Yeah, maybe
I feel I mean I'm an only child as many people are well with love pointing out. But I don't mind reaches over and grabs a handful of food, although I don't know that I grew up that way. Or did I learn that because you stabbing people with a knife for after they reach over to get your fries women have no friends it's hard to say mine, but I can see I do see. Other people get super upset about that in their people whose it you know don't let can I use your computer now. You must be joking I'm not joking, don't touch my computer there's a lot of people who are more much more territorial than others about everything from foods desk space. So it's something that could be observable. Show of your observing a couple together nurse their share in each other's food, then so, lady in the trampling where they grab the right, spaghetti and kiss in euro because their shared their food. What is it territorially and territorial boundaries. One thing: in fact, I think this is from the book as well from the light switch that people are
slower to leave a parking space. You know somebody here, you're Poland. In the parking lot a target, see somebody go to their car and they sit in a car and arrogant one is taking so I, like you, ok, with a guy, get your keys out, you navigate to where you gonna go, but it's like but like a minute, I'm sitting here my turn signal on block and traffic. What's your problem and then therein there their reading something in their laughing at their phone, they did their on their phone making to call and you go. Would you have done this? If I weren't waiting, I don't know if you would, I feel like you're, taking your dad generally when that do that when their body extends to their car and their courage dance to the space. This is my space. I own it And I'm not leaving until I'm good and ready, and you can wait an account it gives them a sense of power. I feel like small people, do that like how small and passiveaggressive D have to be to go slower when somebody else is waiting for you. When I see somebody waiting for me, I typically try to go as fast as I can do
safely because I not knowing it is yet to sit there and wait special. We get a baby crying. It's like. I just want diapers that's a lot of away. While I do that but there are people that their own space and they won't give it up. I could see that it see that its especially. I always wonder if the people who are in those giant cars, those lifted trucks, you know who you are- is that it How often do you drive this thing in a mud pit for fine? I got our no if I believe the territory thing bar fairly thing which yeah that's possible- and I know I'm gonna- get like one star review from lifted truck guys. It's not all of you. I know some of you are driving around the mud and that looks fine. To view, though I, I've got your number stay tuned. For the show we ve got a trailer of our interview with Molly Bloom, herein infamous underground poker games, in LOS Angeles in New York that were attended by a listers monster.
and eventually landed her in hot water with the FBI. If you ve seen movie Molly's game you'll, know was a master of psychology and used a lot of tactics and techniques that she taught us here on the show coming right up. To allay and needed to get the first job that I could and hired by this guy. Who was pretty demanding bosses personal assistant. He said I need you to stop doing so, my poker game. So, unlike ok great, I bring my playlist my cheese play and I'm thinking The players are gonna believe these overgrown frat boys, but then then, Affleck walks in the room you're too Caprio and a politician that very well recognised and had the studio heads of banks and all of a sudden? I had this labour moment that covers my trojan horse. I just need to control and have power over this game, because it has this incredible hold over these people. Why do these guys with their access to anyone and anything,
this dingy basement to play this game. What is the most money? You ve seen someone losing one nine hundred million I've. How did the mob get involved around Christmas? door open in this guy that I had never seen before pushed his way and stuck a gun in my mouth. Get the hell out of me any kind of gave me this speech about how, if I told anyone about this or if I didn't comply, then they would take a trip to claret oversee my family. Then the feds got involved and the first thing they did was they took all my money. I moved back to allay. not not pretty decent job. Ten days later, I get upon the middle of the night, this agent so and so from FBI. You'd come out with your hands up my walk into my hallways. When my eyes adjusted to the hyping flashlights, I saw seventeen FBI agents. Semi automatic weapons pointed at me if you want to learn more about building report and generating the type of trust that Molly bloom needed to run her multi million dollar operation and
about how it all came to an end check out episode, one twenty of the Jordan Harbinger show Are these the part? One don't forget part to come up in a few days? Links to doktor, Jack Schaefer stuff will always be in the show notes. That means his books. Please use our website links if you buy books from he guessed on the shelf. That does help support the show worksheets for the pursued in the show notes transcripts in the shadows in a video of this interview is going up on our Youtube Channel at Jordan. Harbinger dot com, Slash Youtube, we ve also got our clips channel cuts that don't make it to the show highly, For me, it a ruse, you can't see anywhere else, Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash cliffs three can find that on at Odin Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on linked in I'm teaching you how to cook. with great people and manage relationships using software systems, tiny habits, the same ones that I use. That's our six minute networking course: it's free
Jordan, harbinger dotcom, slash courses where you can find a dig the well before you get thirsty most of the guests on the show they subscribe to the course come join us you'll, be smart company where you belong. This shows created in association with POD cast one. My team is Jen Harbinger J Sanderson, Robert Furmity Milly Ocampo, Ian bared, Josh Ballard Gabriel Miss Raw. He remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends, and you find something useful or interesting. You know anybody who just didn't persuasion influence developing a poor, especially for this set of episodes, recommended on two and share with them. I hope you find something great in every episode of the show. Please share the show with those you care about in the meantime, do your best to. why what you hear on the show, so you can lose What you listen and we'll see you next time
Transcript generated on 2022-03-04.