The show was severely beaten, in my case, unaware of the meat eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by an ex hunt creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters download the hunt app from the itunes or google play store nor stand with annex next, Firstly, we start out with this to fish did things nobody get into them. The real me the show here with the two fish related things on episode, two to to which the cobbler go We still episode to two to three some and pointed out that we should have commemorated more carefully gazelles, a rifle caliber, so the two to three, but the two

two episode, which is also, another representative. You do believe is a duty to set up. I challenge the veracity. I challenge the veracity of a man's email who rode into say that he snake The official line, or snag rod. fishing in a hundred feet of water, pulled up the rod. real up all the line, and lo and behold on the end of it, is a dead whitefish and I was in because I must I somehow questioned the veracity of his tail And unless he went out their day with a rotten whitefish, he said and photographs tat made me the back them up so. My apologies to his name is you beard my apology, There are mr stew beard. Dollars like a legitimately rotten whitefish found on the bottom of the lake.

It's so rotten and look that he cannot poking at it in the picture and it doesn't want to quite seem to want to grab it guys not interested this. Not officially. One would think that someone sent in as they sent in. Did you see this gas and a turkey gizzard ope? open, you know what had in it a marble for your kids marble. I believe there are put their picture instagram. So if you gotta stephen or now on instagram, the question is: does he think he was eaten? It too are to added like the stones. Yes gizzard or do you think you're some sort of food they had seen before it's so eight times bigger than a normal pisa. As the great question man, I had thought about. Like the vehicles daphne way bigger than the average piece of stone. That's in that gizzard. You know what he could thought it was. You know how they eat snails.

I hadn't occurred to me that that was horrible. How to like all swirl too it could have been my little snail twist I found bear shit. One time is all creole grants. He found a box crale the grants. Oh yeah, I think you're probably correct. He wasn't picking it up as grit. He thought eat something tasty. The last fish thing is a conundrum, the father and son conundrum that we need to that. They had asked that we weigh in on so this dude and his dad were fishing and they both headlines out in the old man gets distracted in the kid lurks in is the old man, going crazy walls or man's off talking to some guy, so the kid is over and reels the rod and- and it's like some tanker four pound rainbow so who's fish is it. I is the romance fish,

Really unintended rod now I'm to disagree. He we gain and it he cast out. Psych ilo, If I saw like a video of what was going on, maybe I'd have a different opinion, but I dunno, maybe it's. The old man was like barely distracted now, so that but listen. I don't think this. Is you and I sit here, talk and do not think we should ask our guest away when I d ever burgoyne sure. Do you have anything to say. Please who is the media representatives here from bob defer you guys. We have representatives here from the boon crockett club, so they spent all all day. They sit there and look at you know whether or not to accept things in the record, books and stuff. So I feel like these guys have like a moral they sort of have the moral high ground. We have the power you have the you have the career. You have the credentials to weigh it out, so so that, let's say you guys were a fish. Let's see you guys kept fish records and this is a record fit

and they come to you and be like here's, a record version. You like clearly its record fish whose named we put down and then they tell you the story lot of times. When that happens, one will take the ownership of the fish and the other one will say they call it now as long as the person that called it had the fishing license, they would be good, you know, and they followed all the rules a lot of times. That's what a lot of fathers sons do as though, like this subtle shoot it or vice versa, and then we have a thing where the the father could then take ownership, which is basically just as a sentence, letting us know that hey this person hook this fish and I'm the owner of it. So we base everything off of the ownership of the of the trophy but harm it now. So that would mean who, as I'm saying who owns the fish we have to design yeah now they would have to decide legally. Isn't it whoever reels the fish in, like khazars, certain states say

you hook it and landed at your patience on your bag limit. So I can't hook fish and handed off. my head the legality of it. So the kid the grabbed the rod I think legally, it is his fish, but was nice enough to Kyle's point. He can allow there to be lost, as a secondary fishermen in them case assuming they both absolute. The licence is necessary for the fish. I like that perspective on it, Let's say he had pulled it in and then there was a pause. Like he retained a fish he wasn't allowed to retain. He wouldn't be. it would be like all the game. Warden you better talk to my old man. It was his rod, the guy war is going to be interested in yahoo who hooked it and who landed it yeah, I sold the kids fish. Thank you settle that

problem for the family before you do the intros before you move on to to to remington. Oh okay, triple deuce, first centerfire, twenty, two caliber in our country. Are you alone, great Jani earned. Is keep, cannot do angels google, which I remember from the words or talking to folks in the boone and crockett club, we're going to explore this whole thing up down sideways. But let's start out with like what? What do you get? What he has do, each of you. You know So I'm tony shouting and the chief executive officer burn crockett how long you held opposition of two weeks: oh, they just changed their title. You know the chief of staff for twelve years and then I see they just decided to change my there for a reason. So, but anyway I had been running the organization station for about twelve years ago, and I have been

Thirty years, the outdoor space about half of that was for profit sector half was the nonprofit sector. I went to my first shot show when I was twenty one. I just wish my thirty fifth. They should be some kind of cries, but they haven't offered me any. I'm surprised, you're still alive, yeah me too me too. It's a lot like coming home with, like a weird flu yeah I've managed to avoid the weird flus they get, but but now so it's and a good right at a video production. Can we begin with in depth than it would work for wonders why life they ran that often downer and death, then too bureaucratic ahmed but didn't want as well, but just open Well, they were open before and then, when I left as executive director there they shut it down for remodel and then they just opened it up two years ago, but shadow if he gets been there. But it's awesome place are you here, people that on that are easily impressed? Who'd say it's like really something

knights its awesome. I don't know anything about it where it. What is it and where is it? I have never. Knowing about nights, it's ok, it's it's a museum, an aquarium there was built. The first round was in two thousand and one and the original intent of John John Morris was to have a home for hunters and angers and in all the stories in the traditions surrounding that community and and then, when I left, two thousand and seven johnny wanted to make it a bigger, better place, and so that's what he did. And so it's still a tribute to the american sportsmen and women of the country. But it's it's incredible gotta see it to some error described. We had our two words. Programmes are less two types like three miles of trail. there are three mommy draw. Is that was down in florida? It's in springfield Missouri.

Thank you think in reserve. if they re like a hotel right by now, we re astronomers cries and nobody, Just people know Johnny Morris's, the other founder of bass pro shop. That's a hell of a story, yeah. Like guys life area, you start Alex Ellen bait, abe at a marina or something like the ice. He started day in his dad's liquor stores was outed with an encap yeah in his dad at I dunno how many liquor stores dozen or so in springfield, and he sold her he sold off the in cab. There's a rendition of the very first in cap that he had at that. Indonesia, One of these days later stores, so yeah just lives like a live bait and cap or a tackle and just a lot of tackling cap, though he didn't, he didn't like the the the tackled at the locals,

I was using so he went targets. I bought a czech law, bad feminist, dad stores near where the whole story started ass. He called a bath protocol bergmann yeah was bass pro, as far as I know, he's a little bit older than I am, but I've known john for thirty years, forty years and it's always been bass pro now he's sharp dude, though he's a great guy and you'll find a beer conservationist, and he he is, we should have, on a voting, is if you listen and john five as moon than his janius, as though out in the morning ganis and then moving over, I yeah. My name is kyle layer on the assistant director of big game records at the boone and crockett club. I've been there for a little over five years now, assistant director.

if big game yep, so my main duty is to review all the entries that we get in. So we have about fourteen hundred volunteer official measures throughout north America and it's my job to basically make sure that every entry that comes in basically has all its he's crossed and size, dotted god you and then to make sure that you know to be there. They have any questions, weiler scoring or any questions about her these policies and procedures. Stuff, like that, may I keep those entries moving through it's of a there's. Fourteen hundred volunteer scores will explain what this all means in minute by a plus or minus. How many are active, ah, a good a good majority of I mean a lot of people that we train to be. Official measures want to be, and so there a lot of what they measure. Though doesn't quite I mean it. Pretty rare to actually harvest abandon, crockett club caliber animal

so a lot of guys wanna become official measures and they think they're gonna measure a ton and they Why don't I get a couple in their lifetime, but there are a lot of alarm big enough to enter the book yeah but day they dont the ones, don't make it. We don't necessarily see so they're doing a lot of of basically public contact force. I mean they're them through the people that most of the public can see. They won't talk to just in her eye or any one else, though, you will meet our official measures, so they're, pretty much ambassadors for us and and so is our job to make sure that day they know what they're doing and know how to do it. Yeah. My old man, was a scorer. I know he did it he's real active and pope and young rums, like. I think I feel like he's. Anointed commemorative of Michigan. He scored for pope. I am almost certain score for boon. Crockett. There's something you look up. Past measures, the ohio We keep track of everyone who has been a man. I love registered in there now

we last name, then he re it's a research or was not on their because not inert, now frank, J, renault, we did it. We did a database transfer two thousand in some of the names could have been largely but generally speaking here everybody brought or stuff over. He had all the forms- and now maybe just maybe does not know he. He measured rifle stuff too, Will you say CBS commemorative buxom michigan is another great squirrel organization. We work with close and a lot of these subsidies, you could have registered date register their their train to score with our system. They use our says them. They they just may not have gone through the process of an actual b and c certification, gaucho gotcha which I I I should introduce myself. Sorry, I've just inspiring director big game records, I've been b and c litter for ten years, starting with them at the assistant you're doing. Kyle does now, with the of entry and then, when he came on trains and into the director basically help him out.

Here, the pr side of our official made. they're doing the best they can for conservation. That's kind of what I am tasked with making sure scoring is uniform that this the current site that's coming out, we're not rewarding something, that's actually negative, which will get into later on what we're looking for. But that's that's my normal ninety five position, with b and c in canada, help in cairo and keep it all of our major is doing the same thing for uniformity throughout the system by forty two degrees news. I'm up our brain go up to speed on something cause. I feel like a lot more people know. I think that people know about boone and crockett. They know the scoring system. So just catch up on there and what that means in it or if your a bow about- and you hear someone say that so and so I a one eighty white tale so one sort out of four hundred and bull. I a twentieth blackberry like what does that mean? Ok, so

The system was originally started at the very beginning. They thought. While I was going extinct in, there are trying to find the biggest specimens, which would have gone in the national heads and horns, which is now the wonders of wild life, which we still have that collection, but they are trying to find the biggest so our generation. What was once on the north american continent? They thought everything was go extinct, so that the beginning of our records, you know, through the work of early, members and conservationists, and what not things started to turn around after world war to conservation is really too In our you had funding and everything in place will no longer wanted to go, see dead, heads on wall of the museum and we had this data we started and so nineteen fifty they said we need to create an equitable since them to evaluate big game and then we can use this system to monitor conservation successes and failures across the north american continent, so they brought together. There was a copy

at the time there was a taxi germans that had his own scoring system, and then there was also a growing system, They never took off. It was I remember the name of it. Ah, we had grants or fits in Jimmy clerk Jimmy Clark. With James clark, taxidermy, and so anybody there was a taxidermy client of his would entered their trophies in a competition and he'd do quiet and give out awards so I made one. He made his own little system the up and it was actually it was. It was pretty well done and and then de the other side of it was the more you know. widely known system, but anyway these is come together. Booting crockett put together committee, all five of them, that they kind of. down and they said. Ok, let's, let's look at the science of today and what what are the traits tat? We in a mature male specimen that comes from an ideal habitat, and so you look at nature of bilateral symmetry. That's a huge question already asked what is being have deductions with you?

nature and, if you're looking at something your eyes, droned bilateral symmetry in its very common, so the thing. They said we have to have left or right matching. That's a sign of hell, habitat and healthy animal, and so they went through each different cap. worrying kind of said. You know what what are the signs of a mature animal? What is common, what's caused by some four the stress her, and they came together with the system meal for moves. For example, we dont major link the points, because a mature moose has the pollination that gets bigger and so very Sure bull may not have long points. Didn't want to reward the length of a point on a moose. Instead, they wanted to reward the pollination which seem to be prevalent in the healthiest of the specimen gotcha, so there

was that was the basis, and then they just took the number of inches of whatever they felt was important, and that gave you a number you know that was that was. The original thing is in a word word: is this rank in terms of when it took allowed to get their gas and the scoring system started out with lank the porn and what they called, the girth of the base of the circumference of base- and that was how they got an idea of a sheep or go in started out kind, a rudimentary and they realise that order to be scientific to be more rigor, and there had to be more measurements to get a to allow again the public what they thought, the animals that were going extinct to get a picture of what that number was and so if you say that number one sixty year, a one, eighty white tale, I again a picture in your head of what that is

Yeah, it was because I think it becomes ingrained for people who are exposed to lula. I remember when I couldn't picture it right I don't know what it meant and gradually over the years now, if someone says the two hundred Ishmael dear. I get a very specific image in my head and I like I understand, and I tell the alarms and are the official measure we common ones and our course I say we ve created a system of measurements that you add and subtract to get to some number that we created. Now. We think that numbers important and luckily other agencies and scientists and stuff it have bought into that and the hunters is well. I mean we wouldn't have a data base. If people didn't take the time to have their trophy measure, so they kind of all bought into it and so

no, it is just may suggest a set of measurements that are add in practice to get to the scorn and we say, entered in as many different things. You no organizations as there is out there, because they all have an important mission are all trying to accomplish something we're just one of them and we ve created this His ring system was important to to you know, go and turn the timetable back a little bit. The purpose that you know that these guys didn't really kind of sit down and come up with a scoring system because they needed Do you know, there's a there there there's a there's, a precursor to the all of that when the club was found in eighteen, eighty seven, they wanted to solve a problem, and that was the fact that our wildlife populations were being decimated. Our natural resources were disappearing in the west and, and you know they wanted to, a way to fix it, and so here they started with the yellowstone preservation act and eighty. Ninety two than in when roosevelt was president. They got together national wildlife, refugees

in the national forest reserve was he involved with boone and crockett. He was right. He founded the organization yeah, but so he in eighteen, eighty seven. Yet I can get you up there, Here's historian to line how our work. I want. You back yard the time on their, but why did he saw why boon? Why crockett? Ok, then So that'll be you could even come back to that if you want no, no, actually that's a good place to to go, and so when the the club was founded. Eighty seven because Roosevelt had been out west for three years. This was after the death of his wife and mother? Yet he's your mama's boy? Do yeah well, but anyway, He was out near to rages in madeira, north korea when he around in the dakotas and wyoming. All Montana had already saw this yo defamation, I'm talkin about, and so he was upset.

at that when he got back to new york city in eighteen, eighty seven, he called round a group of guys at to it over influential in their respective areas: industry, people, scientists, education, folks, politicians and but they were all joined by one common thread. That was that they were, they were hunters. They were sportsmen in a cure, about conservation and in the future. So they sat around scratch their heads trying to figure out. You know what would they going to call this new organization and at the time, Daniel boone davy pro crockett were the two most prominent names in that space? Let me name the most famous people, so you are doing someone in america is named. You hunters at that time. Yes, now, not always you'll, probably under less do not know that you will not be renewed every time about that

but I mean I think the euro, so that was how dhunacrag him about, but many ways better. The timeline. You know In essence, the scoring system was created as just an it indicated. First of all, to preserve a something that would show future generations will actually want existed, unearth bearing on it. But then, as our conservation efforts were successful, state laws were

implemented and our population started recovery and growing. The system then became a measuring tool for how do we measure the success of everything that we ve done, and so in that's what it is today and that were still gathering dust data were still sharing it with with state, while like managers with academics with folks, if at all, why is my ecosystem? Not working and somebody else's is they're getting bigger male specimens and I am in love, they come to us and ask ourselves questions and then make it. We can hook them up with those people that our successful I live managers and to help them out and so there's a there's, a distinct purpose there, besides just coming inches in county numbers, will have what have you guys, but we look at the records.

Mohammed ass, I got a need, as you know, a question about the wreckers because explained the cut off. like you guys, don't accept something tells a certain size right or do you accept all numbers it just they don't get put into the book. So what we are, What we do to set it up that my questions and clear enough repeat: we have set a threshold that says if it feeds this particular level, it is worth recalling as a mature male specimen created by this habitat oda, if we were Clearly, if we were purely warning to just recognise the biggest and best, why would we accept a threshold, say sending your biggest mule dear this year. Then we just keep track of what those biggest one's work. not what our mission is. We're looking at. any time a male specimen reaches a certain age under conditions. This is the expression of secondary sexual characteristic. Antlers your horns,

and so we want to mark this down because we can't keep track of everything taken in the country. So we have to take a small small bit of this data set and then we can extrapolated out now we can't say: ok, bozeman, no one ever gallatin county Montana say Thirdly, it put out ten book mule dear year and then drops the five our records cancer Oh well, this is what happened, but we can say well for thirty years it put out ten and then all of a sudden. At this point it dropped to five what changed, and so that's that's why we have a threshold and we had to set. It Where will you know when you we wanted to say those mature male specimens? It reaches asian beyond breeding prime breeding base Who was the idea of going for the super older ones cause it have no effect on the population? So that's what you wanted to concentrate year, your harvest pressure, and then we can record how often those happened and try to extrapolate that tab. Equality. So what story? Does it tell the aviation?

species like let's say you pick whitetail deer does look at the submissions are coming like the number of deer every year and in winter start like diligently keeping records. The current system was nineteen. Fifty That's what I was trying to get well wasn't real clear. We started for one reason and then it was was redone in the fifties to switch focus to really uses a gauge so nineteenth it is that's when the current system canines when the current system. So if you look at from nineteen fifty to now, I do you does does the story that, though the record book entries tell line up, the story, as we generally understand it. Meaning that starting out when the hell started in the nineties. You know we should start to have a lot bigger dear around the count because management practices began to why tell dear why, as I wait till the august manager practices began, change do like. Does your stuff reflect that

so they absolutely I mean we're we're enery more every year and that is a testament to the effective, well, I've management by our state and federal agencies and dumb that's kudos to them because they mean were bert taken more big critters in what one of the things that you? What are some animals that you realize that more and more of them are making the books? in water animals. Were you looking a black man something's, not right, because we're just not seeing them anymore? Well, I guess I'll be before we get to that. steve. I our go a little bit more and your white till question, because it's a great example, so you have the ninety. right. Milo Hansen balk at a bigger scheduling, world record typical, wait till at that time. I'm we were seeing more top income dear than we are at a white tells us we are now now I would argue that what you saw was never population of dear. We were too successful. and then you have a density meal. The species is to dance here, actually seeing a decline

in the available resources, the goat antlers? Will we had that big diet? few years ago you were when each d hit the upper midway ass, though it had never been seen in wisconsin your across a cross that era and so there is huge die off a white tales. What we saw a corresponding droppin injuries What we saw after that was you had unexploited resources that that tucker buck out of tennessee? There was some dear that absolutely blew the doors officer is extra resources, and so some like. That is what our records are real cool about and sometimes gets lost cause. I can't look at mozilla county on mount line entries and make hypothesis off of one cow, I don't have a big enough dataset, but when I look at, entire upper MID west and see a seventy percent decline. That's where our records fit in a desert really exist anywhere else, so that now get back to your question on species racine, caribou, caribou or

dismal we use not seeing big care but come in with our yeah we're not we used to get a few. thousand every three years, we're lucky to get three hundred kid yeah. Now there you know, use that you look at the. though the barren ground caribou in northern alaska, they're, starting to see the populations go up. So I'm hoping that I start to see that gradual uptick in our records- and I haven't noticed that yet yeah, that's more kyle now during the day to day review, but yeah carrier or bad there's worse in We are seeing more and bigger bears from all over north america, the south, the sublime bears grizzly bears brown bears they're. Doing awesome like bear so you see a lot of big grizzlies area. A cannon, alaska, alaska, opinions, world record broke twice. I believe tat, the other.

Matt bear out there. That was brown. Bear Chris combat, killed world record art. Brown bear. We haven't seen it break hours, but I mean again, you're still seen some of the biggest bears in the world. So they could tell you its interim, because you can't tell what I can tell you one day and you could look and say hats off to alaska right right, dude, a job other hand, could look and say maybe they're not offering enough opportunity. or am. I would really say that there is there like increasing our inquiry, is increased effort resulting in an it in an uptake and the number of trophies racine that's hard to untangle. So in that that's again where you have to look at it in a north american scale. If you get too precise, kind of miss it. A little bit with our data sent word is looking at overall trends, so I can say oh the south eastern united states were seen, bears from a bunch of states that we ve never seen before they're, getting very big there do and healthy bears in that part of the country are doing good kudos. Did you know?

carolinas and our concern all that, so you mention mount lines so one of the was to say I mean They'Re- only really know matter how many states have thirteen or fourteen states have legal land seasons very. Are our mouth lines up or down steady, steady, steady mozilla county montera. That is the place to get a book skull outline of error. just over the border in idaho. Those are the two top counties there's the unstable, but that makes sense of the word give em outline, because you can have too many big tom because they kill each other, so it makes sense that that would be something that's kind of a status quo. You know across the range from what we see is not likely to be supervised. Little right, Mildred

Down down but holding steady and showing positive in some areas, and not in others, it's not as dismal as you all know. It's not that he's a mule their harvest. I actually did a talk on this one time it wild cheap. Whenever started you, I had a philosophy, and I was wrong. and I thought I knew everything back then, but parents alive animal, that brought up Right, like predator control, when they win We see in those big me older in colorado, in these three hundred each dear gettin killed there. A lot of people using coyote, getters, gotcha and so yeah. There was a big peak back in the sixties and seventies, but they're not they're, not continuing to draw but we're putting a lot of effort into them. They're just kind plodded, along and why is colorado blow on the door is often very well yeah. That's that's the thing I want to ask. Mammy, does a tonic ground

want to cover, but I do want to hit that real, quick. As you know, we spent twenty years scouring the state up and down and sideways and trying to find like, like Like a big writer, you know not that there is something wrong with us. then start making a handful of trips down to colorado and idaho, and I'm like oh, I get it yet just just different man or someplace. They have a lot of them. Is it like in colorado, puts up. ten, the one compared to oh yeah, some other, don't stay. I know I don't know the exact, but it's it's ridiculous. You know what was I remember what my breakdown was, but colorado would put in three hundred and some entries and the next closest was like one hundred and one, and then it drops the montana that was like forty, you know so in the same time, period to credit

yeah they're. Even I got all kinds of theories, but why that is blue. What's your theory, but why that is how we let people show meal there all the way through the right I mean at it. You know colorado's opportunity state, but they have They seem to set it up to where their bigger dear protected in a lot of those real big dear, come from sleeper units, and so I think they ve got. They ve got the groceries. They ve got the age structure. They protect him at the right time I think I think we're is no over the counter dear take their archer it was the arches and we'd have to check, but I don't think so, isn't really, I think pretty much everything mule deer has gone to draw down there, but either way you're right, I mean they. They definitely protect those dear, but you can still. They still have lots of opportunities to go. Shooting right does

you know, for a lot of the seasons have before we are. I know where I don't want to leave the scoring system. Frank nominees in a couple of my questions cause, and I think we mean to make sure that everybody understands it, but what want out with. Is you can imagine it is changed over the years right. Is there a chance and the squire system will change again. because- and I can give you my example why brings up this question- is that I remember when I just got into like look having to judge boil as a guide in arizona for clients and saw his gay like getting into the that mindset. You know the time there was that war record of that was forever number one. The was at the blue, boar colorado, lacking and right, and then it got bastard. I believe I can inch or something like that by the white mountain bull.

can involve ii. The way we look at the two compared side by side the black cable, just alone, you can, it must weigh twenty. More than this, the white mountain, but why mountain both long in spindly and but had at length right, which was awarded by your system, but ours if you saw the two animals on the hoof, probably inside of two sets of antlers you'd, say- will for sure that that the black cables is going to crush. the white mountain bull because he's just big batter and healthier just by judging the mass and his antlers, no one. So it's a great question and if we were to creator scoring system today, I guarantee there be some differences, but what we did was nineteen after we did the best we could and some of those things now we kind of have to to hang onto or all those data points that we have to this point become invalid. Yeah cause you can't go, look at it all right and so

Elk. When you major join. You start in the sinner you transition to the outside and go to the tipp. That's the number one, thing that we see problems with. If we were to do it today, I'd say that that's not really, in my opinion, not necessary, explain to people what that means yeah. So when you take a little help sort of show how detailed this is so when you're taking the length of time you draw on a baseline, an elk is what we're talking about here and, generally speaking, on the edge the beam or the time we were. The beam would be. Has the time not happened is where you started. all the sooner the tide along the outside curve on Elk. On the g, one point the first point just because the way it sits on that base and I think what it was originally, they didn't have a lot of curvature to amend these bulls were at the time, not as much is what we are seeing now they stop in the very centre like if you're home, the Elk sideways, like looking at it from the side. Do you start in the center of the time? It goes to the end, a transition to the boy imagine the time and then continues around the outside curve, which at that I made sense

now, I would say, probably doesn't, but that's how every jew, It has been measured, so weak now say, oh, never mind. We were wrong on that particular measure. I got a suggestion for you what you could do it if you needed a pivot, you wouldn't do a hard pivot right You would continue to measure everything. The way via measured it so that you can He's compare relative to the pass right, but then you simultaneously do the new way Everything has been measured twice. And then, in ten years, you'll have this decade law. body of the perfect way, but then miss the nineties which the eightys and ninetys, which is the taking off of in white tail. You know if this evening that future generations, but but you need to see where the dataset you dont disk out there years. Fifty years continued to do it, you can do it, but you also do it the new way. As a measure of eating twice the guitar volunteers.

all those guys they re the fog cos. That to me would be like. Would you ever add something like the way then animal or- the girl, more data point we did for a while. I ask for the weight of the rack for awhile the programme. The chairman was a professor at the university of Montana. He was looking at aqua weights, and so we actually had a data collection thing on the back of the interior or the one hundred guiding hunt form that asked. How much did the. out of your animal way or horns your. How do you the school in everything- and there is, there is a thing: how was it cut whole school and so we tried to do it. We found out that that wasn't really a great thing. It's a big ass

right. There is a lot of variation there, so we quit asking for that. Particular you. What did this rack way? you hear about water displacement. There's gets a lot of that to your plasma, my brother's, really big, and they think it should be water displaced. So water displacement is a bit again. It's another great system, it's interesting to know, but it doesn't word, symmetry basically rewards freak traits, and so, if you look the overall health of the animal you get suddenly gets a big infection and the giant bulbous. You know growth off of it. Well, that's displays more water, but that's not actually a positive trade when you're looking at you know how well this right that means something to me to get hit by a car or whatever or got bit by a bug and it got infected or you know, gotten a fight and it got in early on in velvet and created something goofy? So that's what what what those abnormalities generally stress here. That would be negative,

europe will not only have one of our universities looking at there isn't one of our fellows looking at that abnormalities caused by aggressors and yeah. It's been looked at a few times. You know basis with the science that they had no nineteen, fifty is still solid There is some some work out. That shows like split I guards in certain areas. Perhaps that population got so Genetically bottleneck that all the white tales from some areas have a split I guard and so are you ok, that's that's what they all have well, that was created by a stress here that the population is so bottlenecks that this negative trade is now norman! That doesn't mean we change the system reward and negative trade is dominant just because they got bottleneck. I think that though, one of the primary. one of the primary hunter based criticisms of of the buddha crowded scoring system

into the non hunter bait criticism of boone crockett sport scores, but the hunter based one has the like deductions: So the point were: if you lie hang our day on this, please don't say: nets for fish, but yeah. So you. The are things to move limiting establish somewhere. I get around you You know you shoot it here and you take all these differ measurements out, like you measure the length of the main beam, you measure the length of all the different times. You measure Bunch of circumferences emails like the with the inside spread, so the distance. one to the other antler at the widest point and you add all these up and we're supposed use was due for each side left, antler right, antler, and solar, say you get all you get a

left antler. That's seventy and you get a right, antler, that's sixty someone would, think also you shoddy one thirty white tail, but in fact they penalized you or not Lord you there's like some penalty. The is the fact that there are different. and that case is people off now you say now you give the what I tell people, I'm trying to say or words not penalty were just measuring what's out there, but we will look at leisure penalty will have on structural and that in some kind of penalty, a reward Sure it's just what the animal now it's, what it is it just a sec, like I said earlier, is a set of measurements that are added and subtracted. as other square. The reason people feel they got robbed, I think, is because they look at the concerns about them. It's not about the annexes about them. Unless them it's not about them. Both are looking at the thing they see the number, because even like a box, it's like a net

everyone knows arose so grosses, like the all the score: the deer, and then you do like yours auctions, letting people get bombed when they have the one number they feel like it, taxes the one number and then they got to write the real number down and I think they'd rather just stick with the big number. When we asked how much do you make, I think a lot like that as well. How much do you make, depending on the audience, you'd tell your like pre, tax or post tax number, because you know just tell the narrative, so I think- The yes I'd be in tax like. Why can I have the big number one earns could tell everybody the big number, I could tell the small number when you tell them whatever you want. So when I go to explain that because you're right, we get that question eternal. Why are you penalising this

If the word penalizes, it's a good guy comes to your house and takes the points away, throw a flag know what what you're doing what causes? Those differences like what it causes a big deduction. I think it would help if I think, if you can answer this question, forming sad written it down, I'm glad you brought it the bilateral symmetry again. Can you is it today accepted amongst wildlife biologists that bilateral symmetry is a display of the health of an animal? Generally speaking, Yes, yes, there are, like I said ass. I turned to get out where they ve shown some some traits that are necessarily perfectly bilateral have been shown, but for the most part you know, and I mean look at nature and whole. a tree. The tell the isn't, gonna be lopsided to one side, you anything you want to, at their is bilateral symmetry and so what causes?

creation to that as a stress or which is the basis of it, but where I was going, is what causes a big deduction: okay, well, three, the oaks times or bro and while he was just fine, I shot him lay in the season. That's not a penalty! Well, what results in excess of fighting that breaks times and over population of bulls, so that actually leads us to believe that perhaps the bull population and that unit could be too high because he's stressors are being exhibited on this right which results in a deduction. So, if you're one hundred per cent talking to your buddies and you're making it about, you know, will my dear was this or gross. This gross is fine, but when we're looking, the actual health, the species and habitats? That's what the nets! For so my go to us the grosses for the hunter, the nets for the animal ethics, we're a large where it comes from us. I think that people people have taken a tool created for this purpose.

And created like a tool created by an organisation to pursue like the sort of long term goal, and they don't know about that- there's no about the tool. and I think just a way to write hundred percent what how to communicate to your friend over the phone. What it was near and it's all they do. They see imperfections in the tool without knowing or even like like. Why is it that way now mean the club itself is so much bigger than record somewhat justin than I, run. I mean we do so much more. I mean we're known for our record book, but we do so much more for conservation And- and I know tony can touch on that a lot more me, what we do with our university programmes- and you know what we do with our associates programme and our conservation and ethics programme mean it so much

more than that, then what justin and I do, what role that I mean we we've gotten we'll come back to the scoring thing in the mix. There's some more points about it, but yeah like get the bigger contacts for what you know It's coming up ways for people argue about how big the dear was. What goes out over there Oh, you know really that lighted wreckage programmes about ten percent of our budget when we were founded,

and tat was to make some course corrections in in while I've health and an inhabitant of another way to do that is through policy. So you know back then, and today you know, of a huge chunk of our mission- is spent developing conservation policy in Washington DC and help with states develop policies at state level. Get word were very much involved with forced health were were involved with wild life. Disease you know were were, were a group that people go to say. Ok, you guys have the knowledge to come up with a solution to the problem that we would in a fight.

And that's what we do bennett is what the probably two thirds of our entire mission budget goes towards. Is that that effort to make sure that we have land that we have public access, that we have when guys get out there? They have animals to look at that. The landscape that supports those same animals supports all kinds of other wildlife like birds and fish, and you know the health of the nato, the health of wildlife, but also the health of the habitat, so do policies a big part of what we do. How'd you guys get money any way we can, but we, you know our members, you know we still when roosevelt founders and eighteen, eighty seven we have one hundred. You know he founded us with one hundred regular members and

Those are guys and gals that are influential in their respective fields, but they are all joined by the common threat of being hunters and I, and so when they they are a big part of us. They know that a member contributions, member dues, are a big part of our budget. Our corporate partnerships are a big part of our budget. Are we have a fairly healthy endowment and those interests are, Is there a big part of our budget as people that die and then do like a not like, bequeathed her estate to a nonprofit, actually yeah, partially, and then a lot of them have just been major gifts from again those hundred regular members, because we're the you know that there are those the bylaws have never changes, just the same number, regular members. Today, as there was in one hundred and thirty years, You know hundred so you keep it at one hundred. We keep it at one hundred, and so we have about one hundred and sixty we'll have what we call professional members and those guys and gals are like worker bees. Justin, and I are professional members

I've been a professional member. Before I ever came to the club, do not a regular member, I'm not ready Never. I dont have quite that big jacqueline eyes but anyway, I've got the fire, the valley, just not the man, but I will eat meat. You know those in those that I could state aids. He heads federal agency heads a lot of academics, lot of univee, virtually professors and forced to wildlife departments in land, gray, innovation. As the country are all in that mix of professionals where we work, which is really our knowledge base. You know, when we have a problem like see. Dvds, a good example in our friends, idiocy dvd research, trying to figure out a way to stop the spread number one number two. I would fix the problem. And you know, we spend a lot of time and energy research,

she's using are professors in our academics that our special that that are known all over the country for being experts in cwd, trying to come up with answers to that problem Well, you know the in answer the funding. You know we do have grants. You know we have grants, we we we we have. We, we do a lot of matching funding for issues like cwd and things like that, but it some were not a huge organization by compare Listen to a lot of others. You guys get checked some people that writing a check. Donation. Yeah, I mean we. I mean you know that it's interesting because all of a sudden like on social media, somebody will say wow. You know you guys do a pretty good job there. I want help sporting yeah they'll sinister some money, but I think that the main thing is is that, unlike other group were were not reliant on events. We don't have chapters, we don't have banquets, we don't have

While we are reliant on is our members and and our member support, and for a long time there were sad either the bureaucratic, clever, and silent and deep- and you know, nobody really knew what we did. We didn't really care that nobody knew what we did. We just cared about what the end result was when we got the job done and now in over- were kind of coming out of a coup in the last ten years and talk a little bit more about what we do, because we want people to be aware.

These these issues are not so different than what they were one hundred and thirty years ago. There's just different solutions to the same types of issues: the threats to our public lands, the the you know the threats to the health of our wildlife, but at the end of the day, if it does, if it, if it if it comes be, boils down to one hundred and the anger, if you don't have those guys out there, fishing and hunting- and you don't have those licenses getting sold, and you don't have you know our state and federal agencies dry up and that funny mechanism is solely dependent on hunters and anglers who need fresh water to fish. They got ahead. Public glance and arable land access to hunt on they gotta have healthy, healthy wildlife populations to hunt, and so we have always tried to be in a position to work.

I can down the road and anticipating what what is the next big problem. What is the next big threat? And- and you know we have huge wildfires now and you know across the the western states- and you know the forest, health and rangeland health is not where it needs to be, and you know we've got to take much more aggressive approach to active forest management and restoration, and in may, ensure that you know we are for certain tinder boxes, though, and so you know those the kind of issues that we look at, and I know it's really boring for the average honor to sit there and listen to all this stuff. That's why the records program? You know the concept of fair chase. Those are two cornerstones of organization that are really our public face that are somewhat sexier than what it is that we actually do behind the scenes to ensure that those two things can happen: get that the fair chasing is interesting, because I see there

no you're, a hundred early, your buena cracked, closer. Hunter based organisation, but there's a a bit of a conflict: economic, where on one hand, if it just record keeping, it would be that big specifically redrawn understand in some geographical area how many animals of a certain size, the landscape, kicked off put off it would include like animals that were killed poachers animals that were struck Vehicles, animals just turned, then some of swimming pool right a beat us back, come on come on, but you don't do that because there's a cachet attach too. getting it on the record book, and so you don't anyone through and you have rules and regulations about who can get in that are more stringent, even. The state law yeah,

But let us know how do you reconcile those two other less just take care, because we actually do accept found it. yeah well, you do so. The picked up is what it goes in as or if it was example party taken. We don't feel that's a fair chase thing, but a lot of states allow a well three states allow party hunting we don't lose the hunter. What those rule also you do have a way I got you, so you do log the presence of the animal you just don't reward yet forget we have running, rose at eight owned head, so they say the boon across accept it. We let me more accepted user rewarded? What well you, couldn't yellow recognising the animal. In some cases we wouldn't accepted if it was from a high fence population, that's not indicative the areas native wild lag ass. I never. I never understood that another. That was true, so you do take it into account right. We ve got, we ve got it. One of the first year process got hung up on a cemetery fence like they founded, hang in there dead in the water

Oh yeah, that's a picked up head wildlife agencies. If, if you want to know about it, if estate confiscate ahead, we never lose to ever the poacher was, but it's shown is owned by montana, fish, wildlife and parks and work. from where it came from. All I see I realize oh, but it is it. Is you bring because that's how people like know so much. What I know about boone and crockett club is just from like shoot the shit with we should have had this one earlier. I know when I hear that that's the gallery's hers like that or they don't accept acts. They don't accept this and that so I got you know we have that we have a set of rules that are fair, chased requirements that you have to stay within two recognised in this goes back to the beginning, as a wretched like for you to boot, till you lose your name as a fair chase hunter, this dear taken in fair chased by this person that goes back to them. beginning there was no rules, and so they had to try to switch everybody's opinion on you know what was approved

Well yet so they said to get into our records book, and this is pre. Nineteen fifty you know whatever you must take this unfair chase and at the time you couldn't jack light you could crust them in the snow. It was a lot sure, even though he might a lie even then you might have legally been able to so they in the very beginning they put that on. What happened is the hunter perception started to change, fair chase took off and state agencies, Leupold started the, Well, the the wildlife school in wisconsin and all of a sudden, you had scientifically trained managers that are setting this, but at the time fair chase was one hundred per cent, a necessity to force harvest on the old, mature males, basically force trophy hunting in the beginning, which was the mature male harvested, did not affect the population, and that was the whole beginning, a fair chase. What we continue it today again the rest, for fair chases kind of morphed, we no longer have to follow fair chase the save wildlife populations, but fair chases interval to what tony pointed out on hunting and fishing to contain

you and the funding for wildlife to continue what is on was an example of a pen This, like war, we seldom boon cracker club would regard it's not fair chase could be legal somewhere. It what's vice versa,. I gotta go the opposite example. So the bigger Once we see some states allow the usage of radios the talk, somebody, anyone game, animal, yell, arizona, organ for example, you can one hundred percent or you could last time I looked somebody into an animal. We say if you guide hunters to game with an electronic with use of electronic communications. It's out god. You know another one that that's probably the biggest misconception that we have is so you are trail cameras, it's not fair chase to get live images of a game species. Your hunting it we're working on that final wording on that, but for cellular trail cameras. If I'm sick

I could be sitting here in this pod gas and all of us. And the bear walks by one of my trail cameras. If it was legal in montana, I could then go legally hunt that barren many states, and that is not fair chase and the other side of It- and this is a very contentious topic- is baiting baiting as a general, practice, especially for bears is not a violation of fair chase. Also as examples they might not be allowed to do in his right. But you would accept that if you were correct You can never do something illegal. So you know if, if, if it's illegal debate nor state, you can't do it it's in order. So you always yours, bow to the steering. This state is more restrictive. That's fine! But dumb with with the baiting forebears, you know four blackberries in certain areas. That's the only way that you can get a real good look at a bare and make sure you're not shooting occurred or the wrong bearer will. Then we look at baiting of service, which is a very hot topic, with seed of you d, you could make it

strong argument right now. In that case, for servants baiting may not be fair chase, but as an overall practice for baiting less than four bear, We say it is still a chase practice. Who was it like? You know, teddy Roosevelt wasn't arguing about what to do trail cams like who was a dyke. Who is it that who decides it's there for for the overall club? There's the entire? You know it would go to the actors and ethics committee for records the records into requirements for fair this would be the records committee. It's a thirty two member committee and they got a rustle with emerging technologies right and we do constantly hurried. Have you dress, drones, specifically ears at captured or something else, so it was captured under something else again it was. It was transmitting images of live games to them. Because you can't run a drone without seeing the animal we actually called out drones by name in the inter affidavit salon. What'd you do that.

I was say about eight years ago, eight or nine years ago when it really got when he used jones really kind of picked up pace. You know people used him for a lot of different things and there they got to be pretty popular, and so we did call him out by name and he might even bid longer might be close to ten years, it's been awhile yeah, but it was. We were getting ass by state agencies. What's your thoughts on drones and answer, would be worlds transmitting an image, but we got asked enough that to help the states were alike, we will call it out by now So there's no doubt that a drone usage defined to scout for or hunt game falls outside of fair chase. What you know we would deem as the ethical pursuit of the animal that they can escape yeah. I I gave you completely give minors that they're always like similar were not he knows. I infer is a complex. It is like a misunderstanding, but that that people argue bother deductions right away.

people complain about that that they felt the scores should be higher like wow, you know those assholes boone and crockett always on saturday, but by god it was one eighty doug so. The other thing is, is I think that the numbers this anyone who criticism that comes from outside its like inside and outside honey, but people look at the fixation on numbers right, and people feel the that it's like, I did that this kind of this jack to of animals monopoly the toy, the right word, but Basically, there taken this sort of like a living. This beautiful living thing that has a lot of this, I a huge amount of cultural pride that we take in that that that we have these animals around us and

generally, America's gently recognise them as gorgeous were generally supportive of their existence. Here. there's a lot like reverence for them, and people feel that way. Boil it down and just take the deer. Turn it into a number it's that something is lost. it's is all hot you're here. Hunters say this and lots as a newer hunters we'll be prickly about because there are excited to get a deer anything like it, Zyobite. It is good to be so happy enable there is kind of like this all just a blank and should never be there why leaving rate we recognise it should never be that, and you meant, to an earlier it simply a tool they created in his kind have been bastardized. But I don't think it's your. I don't know that it's your admits. I don't think it's your fault at all yeah, but it's a thing and then but people know as the boone and crockett score yeah. So you get

right. There oh yeah right here, but all their energy I'd I'd, argue that if you, if you, if you do so any a single component? It's inappropriate when it's about you again. Do you not about the usual, never Kill an animal just because of a number: that's ridiculous! You never use it to that. Honestly. If you don't care about regulations you're just shoot and certain. For only me, you don't care about the experience in the laws. That's wrong. It's a whole experience you enjoy them. You enjoy them out. joy the number how it how it affects the biologic data, make sure that that still there just another piece of that, you should never make a hunt about one thing: it's about the whole experience in the animal and everything that animal is This has of thoughts about how the the the evolution of the term trophy hunting that that its

no know each generation kind of defines it fur whatever to to. You do defines a further moment how has at drifted so I guess I didn't answer loaded it acts I have been in the space and eight is a mention before I started in a space. Is a film producer. Then there was a nineteen eighties at that. Time is only four of us that we're doing that to everything- and you know, turn the clock back a ways to the days of her guardian american sportsmen. Here those were days when it was all about hunting.

And then in the in the eighties and the nineties, what started happening was. As my and the business I was in, there was more and more video producers that started getting into the game in all my films were always you know, they told a story. They stole the story about. You know where the animal lived, what the animal ate in. Oh, we didn't always get an animal. If we did, it was always under fair chase, but later in the in the late eighties and early nineties, as more and more of these folks started getting into the business, it all became about the kill. How many kills you have your tape? I'd have. I would actually have distributors asked me that question and that was prayer prior to You know the outer network I was there would have to determine if it was good or not exactly because

where they were selling on so all of a sudden with begin and end in the term trophy then became start to get really polluted because they did your. What you're? Talking about the numbers thing? You know the bigger the better you're, not worth squat, if you don't kill a gaping animal with big horns or or anders, and so, and so it went from the hunting days of curt gowdy to the killing days of the eighties and nineties, and it really got the term trophy a black eye and- and I think, the I drove that. I mean if you look at our outdoor programming now, for the most part on our outdoor networks are still a lot of whack 'em and stack and stuff going on and those networks, and I think that's not a tribute to the animal. I don't think as a tribute to our sport of hunting. I don't think they call it any say: media, you dumb, our own media, I'm talking outdoor media and I think the term

I? What I see now, though, years. I see hope in the fact that I think you know. Programs like yours, for example, angel you're talking about these things in your tired about, and I and I you're going to see him a migration back now from the kill to the hunt and what it really means- and you know the locavore movement you know consuming those animals. Where does your meat come from and you know so. I think that there's there's the you know we're we're starting a course correction error in a positive way, and but I think that's really happened to trophy it was. It was said So much in outdoor in the outdoor media there for twenty years that it just kind of took a left turn, and now we gotta get it on a right turn again. It's amazing how how universal not in honey media, but how universal in the mainstream media hug unit? soul

over condemnation, trophy hunting is, is like. If you use that you and even need to say anything else, no, you don't it's like. If you see an article trophy hunter like You'll need to read the rest of the headline even right. You know that it is bad. We tabled this recently, whereas there is a fundraiser, the Don junior was going on for black tail dear ducks k, so what I black till dear docks. I don't jump and my head like. doesn't sound like an evil. Trophy hunting adventure but describing the news was leading a trophy hunt and you'd have to say why I'd have to know a lot more. I don't really know that. That's what they're doing the deceased they're, going hunting dear dockside. How do we know that? But someone I don't wanna make this seem real bad. I would the word trophy Everyone will know that I mean it's real bad.

Well the year and save their work to term trophy was never intended to be bad. Do it, but, unfortunately it has become that way and I don't think it's salvageable. It's it's just a firm that has been beat up so bad misrepresented by the media, whether it's the outdoor media, that the general means media put the stories you like you're talkin about you know. We need to find some other description for these troll for that for them, with the immature male specimens that were taken out of these ecosystems yeah, I outgrow them, I'm just going to say that I ives reading jack o connor stuff. I always had the idea that true, like trophy and then the head or the mouth were interchangeable there were sent out and that's what how that thou, where, where and how they use trophy you would you agree, there there may. I just want the head

you just wanted to have a duchess like what that piece of the animal was referred to. As you know, That is all I ran into guy one time I was eloquent and ran into a guy on the trail, he's actually a radio. I don't want to say his name he's a radio host and I was talking to him like as well as like holy shit year but anyways. He was Tom was gone, he said, he's taken. Thirty head were solid livestock, I think of but Alec thirty trophies. sure bow and again it was a negative connotations back. Then it was just like that was like up like they had an animal down and there were many different parts of it. And then like the head, was you say it's called it was this also refer to? As the trophy grab the back corridor. You grabbed the trophy yeah. They had all their trophies yeah a came along with the carcass

I have an abandoned. I have not abandon the word and I try to help out a little bit when I can, because it's its warnings in talking to people like you talk to people who were sort of kicking it irish on hunting her. You know curious bob, though there really want to push you right away. The big. What you're not like are trophy hunter. do Varela. Why easy? Now, because I am you know a lot of things in one of the things I am as I have a lot of this shit lane around my house, and I really like it a lot And saw a lower your car, what you might call it but like if I get a big dear any. Yeah. Now, my dear, I want the head never going to get rid of it. I've never gotten rid of one less. I like lent one to a friend because he thought it's cool to have it I've, never gotten rid of one of my life so. I don't know this idea and some people try to overdo it with the tribe that already remove the head from the woods. Am I up to now you're, just like resp.

Finally make a comment on things and it just ridiculous like you would want it and you would have it in your house, but because other p, bull view. There is no way that you don't find acceptable. You will now sacrifice by leaving yours in the woods in order to have likes make turnus. Like social commentary one it should be remembered of your home. hell I mean I look at my hanging in my you know in my house, but every single one of the few lionesses year there, the trophy of all for us, different. I know what the hell you're going to call it momentos. I dunno my kids would think mentos said in a shadowbox yeah. I love it, so I haven't away from it. But I know that it takes a lot of explaining either the explain it like that, people like oh yeah. I get that right, I dunno it's like I like all of it. I'd eat all the meat yeah, but I give a damn bones my dog, I put the antlers on myself like I'll. Take the whole thing I like it,

I found a nice like and will benefit from doing some so called trophy hunting. I caught a little bit of slack for on that video. He posted that meter HANS is hunting Elk in colorado attack that waited do no fourteen fifteen years to hunt but, could very easily thought that tag opening morning and shot a ball, but the old. get mad. I wanna hot. I remembered like older it's my arouse a hunting guide. These. It tell me that, like men, a perfect season will be if I can kill one on the last evening of the last day of pennsylvania, deer season, you don't want to sit in my treestand like sixty days and I'd kind of as a mid twenty year old that didn't really get it. But now at forty two, I'm like oh yeah, I get it on every single moment that I have opened a hot and then hold your last day and if you're looking for something, you know, the trophies fastened or how we want to play a bigger bach. It's a helps. You do that you right unless you get lucky.

but most of the time you can end up honey more the other. out of trips will be over instantaneously. It s another forty things like so of yours, super moral. You sure firstly, right away, like that's more moral. Then you want around the hills for five days and then get one, but you're you're, less moral, which is its this part, Well, he's only see the word destroyed man. Just one of these is major cringe Well, you know I, I grew up in a subsistence family, so I never had a beef state. I was sixteen years old, but I will tell it is my perfect hunting season is when I draw a beat egg for for a cow, because I can run out, I can get the cow and I can put the counter freezer and I have no. I've got meat for the rest of the year

and then I can actually focus on okay on my eight egg, new start pigment place, I'm going to start seeing. If maybe I can be lucky enough to wander into something that is a respectable. You know mature male specimen. I have not gotten that lucky yet to get into the book I will that but in all gives put yourself in their right there's no back door, but but you know I mean that because then you do. Maybe you hunt the rest of the season, and maybe you get something that maybe you don't, but it it is all about being out of the woods in an in an inexperienced as much as anything else. Four, I think the majority of owners- and you know- and I bet I think- that the unfortunately the plagiarize figure, the trophy pieces been plagiarized and and are not plagiarized, probably not the wrong word, but it's been misinterpreted and

in it's. Not it's not what it was originally intended to be a happiness. You a lot of words or really there's oh yeah. You know like now, there's a certain way you can thorn inflection on environmentalists right and like our own environmental is like. Someone who wants like me Major sourdough overreach, they ruin The good times you know it's like there's like words that, just like you know, trophy hunting cause. You could probably sit here and list a dozen words that at one point in time, had like a pie of have connotation, but then a version of it runs wild and just starts to carry with it. To the point where he had. No one can self identify any more as a trophy hunting Do a lot of bad flips. Do in order to land there.

You know, there's want one as yes bother, weaver retard about at least a dozen times so, nicaragua globally? Looking at the animals against get submitted? You break the like this break up by species, but you break it up by jean. Coffee and in some cases, because there's sort of like not hard lines between things, meaning the If we are bring up, is it a deer? In california say a deer can run across I five and become a different. dear like meaning, he could be a record book dear, the west side. He could be a record but blackmail on the west side of I five.

Should he run over to the east side of I five. He ceases to be a record book animal. We can actually look into that now, so we can have a dna test done. That will tell us what the you know. If that deer is a black tail around there. Oh has that come up yet, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah! We have, we probably have what about two dozen deer right now that are getting dns better champ because of their and so what what you're touching on there is. If you look at the black terrain from washed colombia, blackmail, washington, Oregon, california, the southern into the california. We get down the california. There wasn't a definitive line, whereas they at the peak of the cascade, served as a then it lying between meal there and blackmail, so that historically was not cross all which create this species and where there was a particular colombia's there while south That line there's no definitive. They can't get over the cascades type thing So it's a mechanical. That's! What's going on! There is where severe the severe high altitude

buying. That range isn't separating black tales and mueller historically with different climate conditions that would have well, okay, and then you have cars, so you get down south of that range and they can slip back and forth and what what we've shown if you look in oregon are are black tail boundary? Is the forest service line, so we pulled it off the top of the the range we we made it conservative. So there wouldn't be a potential crossover. So now that the identified the loci that are unique to black tail and mule deer, we can take a deer killed just over the border to the east and say sure enough. It has all the traits of a black tail letter. In the genetic genetics on it and see, and if it comes back pure black tail, we will accept it in the category who pays for that. The hunter does. If we have a question on something not like it's a top inter would ever and we're doing it to preserve the records will pay for it. But if so, he says I shot. This dear doesn't make your book, but I know it's a black tail taken east, the your boundary I can now

ok, one hundred and thirty bucks, and once they get ten samples- and I can run for that cost syn your dna sample and we come back and say definitively here your cue value, a cue value of point: niner hires peer markdale, really You got two dozen right now. The people want to challenge the man it starts all out of date. Can we talk about that? This is my favorite thing to talk about the life of the I five deer thing. The eye fi boundary is actually Roosevelt Elk and there's no, edit variation between arose villain the rocky it's completely habitat driven booker, so that it was just an arbitrary line that has to be easily definable, which is I five, the other one. That's really kind of embarrass thing is the canadian moose stop at the canadian border, become what sheriffs if they crow on in the rockies yeah. I got you here, but what about like a main nato's role? Canadians, ok, but so, if you, really so there is of? There is a hardliner. Canadian

and cyrus thing, they could change back reply like the border tubes, oh yeah, I think it's caught. You got young girl, found it well, then you have there is in Alaska. I've had then like a brown out there. I've had not come down two yards, no yeah, yeah yeah, we'll get a gps creation I've literally had come down to yards among Google. can I get everything up and I've got the coordinates, punched in our line runs the echoes. What what is referred to here is that you baron ground, so grizzly bear yeah alaska, like you know, in the rockies every year, as grizzy bear in, but They were in a brown bear are. If you went to a tax on MR geneticist, they would tell you that grizzly bear and robbers are the same thing brown bears the have coloration differences tend to get much bigger Does he bears tend to have like light collars more pallid.

inter differences and hair color all kinds of things, not nearly big in some ways, like a lot of guys, Lascaux world tat, if it has access to salmon. We called a brown bear but doesn't have access salmon. We call a grisly. But how do you guys? we are delighted to draw a line we did yeah, so it is kind of the alaska range curl up around Despite the alaska rare, until it hits one of the larger two lines. So nor the north So the last range a grisly. The now face the alaska the roma are correct and I've had that come down to yards on that range line is a what it what it is. you follow the alaska range around there's one spot that it's a straight line like now alive as I believe it, and then it goes a straight line across than hits the alaska range and follows the peak of the alaska range, and then, once you reach a certain point that it falls longitude out to the coast guards

guessing again. This was the fifties, so I was not around. They probably go with the salmon. Think that's what I've heard it has got access to be no a big salmon or on its a brown bear. If it doesn't it's a grisly sir, It would make sense that salmon couldn't cross that alaska, ranging you got the yukon to the north, but I think that's probably what they are trying to do is that differentiation. They were set down and said, whereas that line that the most easily definable that hunters, stand and makes sense for separating these out so that you can, but you know bears, is the worst has all the biggest. grizzly bears are killed right on the line that were probably a brown bear last week, so that Yeah, so that, let me guess at the one you're looking at is a guide it feels he killed. Tanker grisly. And your life, or maybe just a small brown bear where exactly yeah yeah. So all the biggest grizzlies come from the line. Not all

But it's it's a larger portion. Never you kind of no worker, a bigger there's gonna, be from when you get an entry, zero. One other ones are like that, so the moves, the grizzlies, the moose, don't seem to fallen, colorado's blown doors off assures moves. Yeah. Isn't that wild? You think it'd be northern montana. It's not washington does well, but so that, when you'd think that just over the canadian border would be the place to hunt sharers, but the answer is colorado and. You don't work till the california area. There is actually a little bit genetic differentiation, so even though that they do potentially have some older, it's actually different. Black tales of the biggest black tales are northern california, in southern Oregon, the further north you get. They almost look more like a sick, Really do you know what you consider colombia yell, and so you know those or colombia block tell the others big ones shop in washington in Oregon.

We haven't seen a lot of real big dear in Oregon since the fires of like the sixtys, when there were some major stand, clearing fires the years following that we saw some gigantic black tales. We haven't seen that, but that new jackson county abrogate type country down that's the puts out some big ones in northern california. If someone wanted to was the quickest way to get the books why should you be hunted for if you want to get in the books? wait till is tough man. Oh yeah, real. There is tough off of like rough population estimates and what not a kind of calculated out how media have to look at two defined a boner and white tails like one hundred and eighty thousand white tells you have to look at to find one and again. This is all real. Generic law would have dealt with you, but it helps capture, but usually one in one thousand is kind of what you. What you think. Cyrus moves and most their ranges. Forty inches wide and split brows, we'll get you to

the men a moment. I feel like giving get a shower stag. You could say your sites at b and c in and have a decent chance so you look at how many define one eyed over Without one is off the top of my head. We split browns just to brown eyes. I saw the where scoring works. Is you terminated? instrument on them on a moose poem between two qualifying points on a brow. If it does not have a qualifying point on a brow, it just comes to the end of the palm. So if you want the mature moose have a split brow. So that's a characteristic. If you want to a good score, your moose has to have split browser better. But if it's forty wide split bro. That generally puts you at minimum score, so that wanted to be in a to point b row right: fork, brown and that'll split down towards the end. So it'll give you a little bit more length and increase your score. So is it one in twenty? You look at judging from the people. I know that have had moose, tat, yeah or less like you find a mature boards.

pretty pretty good, and I mean maybe it's not true in wyoming or some other states, but my limited experience with shire us yeah, forty inches and split brow is just a good, solid ball. You know earlier router talking, you imagine interesting case where you ve had your cause. Nannies, mountains so males and females, are very, very similar horns. The females I have sort of like a little dogleg like a almost like imperceptible little dog leg in them when they come up narrower, but a female, or female mountain goat make the books yeah. We we got a fifty inch fim a picture of fifty inch. I don't have officially dried the I dunno that it's been entered yet, but we got plymouth, hairy pictures of it and yeah I mean things, got a bit

Eleven twelve inch horns sources of oregon, AMO guy, I mean lots of matinee, they grew insanely longhorns and it maybe not. A lot of people are shoot nanny. So there could be no one hundred book nannies, just died of old agers doling out all as good point generally and are not really. We get that to your people. Is this the biggest ever? Well, it's the largest ever taken in fair chase. It was an interdependent crockett. I mean you know so there could be bigger nannies out there, but we have seen one that made our our minimums, but you the same scorcher, male or female, but after we had that on there for two years and never had a female we did away with, or of here comes a female go. What does it won't? I gotta grapes gotta bring up roquat as well. No, my great masses of my have lena put on I want you guys have explained, were all time means what the sun collect all below argument lena great. So I

I have a gigantic avellino. I mean a giant. I don't remember what it was by measured it there's a guy. measure bear lengthen links us with very anything. A measured my have alina with mild and I still have my old man's measuring calipers. While so have as genuine unlike nineteen ten nineteen to when I was very old, we'll take measure worth the pope and yeah the other emblem low emblem on his albert all garbage the cable yellow stuff, but measured. My have alina and then went to check and z fills book. and he s not accept have Lena's nor are richards committee hasn't hasn't taken that while I mean they ve taken it alone, but they haven't decided yet to add that as a category

and or on the the iron gaiters? Not yet either? I had to go to your competitor. Safari they're, not very they're, not outcomes, competitor other another score organization. I have to go there to validate that. I had a giant have Avellino yeah so that the thing the first three, the first time they looked at the babbling category, order to have a category. The states that have him have to ask, isn't it has to be a managed species and up until like four or five, maybe five or six years ago now, Texas did not manage traveling us, I switched over to where they actually do manage them now, and so that was a big hang up as much of these were just kind of a shoot on sight in texas, so we can't really create inquiry for in texas, arizona, new mexico. All now manage forum. very good when you visited- and so it is being talked about at both pope in young indian Crockett committee levels, minds, ato s, taxes must ask us eyes

So when you get a lemon or on the run down of mine I ll be the first guy in the books, man I want on the shelf too, that's gonna get give you run. I must tell you that between you and I will put forward in antwerp- is so alligators it seems like a stretch that again my understanding that discussions before I was around, but Very rarely is one taken infer chase. Oh. Bang here. How do you define the as yet the rewrite fair chase? Right I mean you're trapping m or your catching em, it's trapped animal. You know that That is a good point. You have the kind of discussion and run over and grab it. Profit. look into whether at night we use the spotlight, which is another, had to go out in the daytime cold. getting ahead was somethin in retrieve it. So when you take a buddy, you don't like with the guy got some it's really good point made it as It'D- would take a lot of work to accept alligators and there is there.

My understanding, is you can in the alligator rut? If that's what it's called there I call them and you can get them in the day with a bow like on land. So there is a very rare situation. You could take a fair chase alligator by our standards now, but it wouldn't really justify a category. No one with you with the sample size be big enough to warrant a category yeah skip point? Ok, here's the thing here too I I don't know what this means. People say that it made all time every day of the week, basically, what does that mean that the all time books and then not all time yeah? So basically, what had happened was? Is we created this measuring system in nineteen? Fifty? we didn't know at the time. You know what that would look like how many countries who would get inside

conservation came along by low populations, are doing better. More people were were harvesting mature animals and saw a record book started to grow and now I k we ve got this data set that keeps growing we're doing as working or again to appoint now where every six years we'd have to print encyclopedia, and we know what happened to encyclopedias, buying encyclopedia more and so in order to sell this book. Basically, in order to have a book that was man as well, that we could prevent people would buy at a reasonable price. We can't had to create this other number, four that trophy them further. To reach in so basically, it was just a way for the greatest hits. Yet what yeah? I was just a way for us arbitrary, it is, but any report, so

If one of our university programmes comes to us or an agency, comes to us and wants to know, you know category wise. What are you guys It's always off that that entry score for white. Tell one sixty four enough! Prong horn! whatever the case may be, so one seller away to the all. Our data is based off of that one sixty number in so that that other number that we created was basically just a way for us to to reasonably publish and sell a book. So if one sixty four away till makes the book, if its archery right now we take any legal means, a harvest. We don't separated out so well, sixty makes the boy, but what makes the all time one cent Only but again that's cause we'd have if we once these is identified as a top species. It needs to be recorded. It matter criteria, but we can't put all the one sixty plus is from the last eighty years

it in one book. So that's really where it came from. So we said you know what we're gonna and made a yearbook. It's the awards book, which is a three year period everything entered in that three years goes in the awards book and then we'd just haven't obituary number- that the very top of the top goes in this all time book once every six years and people don't on here, but its currently one. Seventy at the rate will go on that we're going to be one eighty in the foreseeable future, because you are the one we just last all time book we dead is now volume. I might have got the point now written so many entries that, while we thought was keep it at a one volume book has now expanded, which is great. I mean that's great, that there's that many animals out there that that our species are doing well, I mean that's a good sign. I'd rather have that intranet bill pages. Now because remember my earlier suggestion, to give you another one. Now look at that the change in a slightly as we go forward up kid you're, the always didn't die at the other suggestions. This

p o off forget about the threshold for the all time. It's the top one hundred or is the top ten percent that we looked at that's been discussed. I like your thoughts in the right place, top what do died by the top one hundred book. yeah the top one hundred bucks a year that July yeah yeah you could, or you could do like, like women's magazines and have it be the top ninety nine just because it catches your any like, while must be real with ninety nine. Anybody in neighbouring do honoured top one honour box. You know on. Behind the great rams books is your names inner there, so we, the law, two volumes of that we ve actually publish, b and c publishes books and so Julie. Trips are director publications. I think it was great rams. Three. We worked with Bobby Anderson, so we actually tell the publication what not a three and

or rather those works here is your local is earned equivalent from older he did a meal. The retrospective, which we were back in, we took all of our old injuries, the stuff that kind of got dropped, and maybe never No words book that you wouldn't see so did amelia retrospective and we looked at doing more of it. A book like abbot men, sheep or else just so picturesque in the characters are so defined that it's a little bit easier to build a book and she pyres. I think the meal, their owners there's a visible idaho's greatest meal. Dear boy, I ryan hatfield. I wish it was like greatest meal during the west or whatever was idaho's greatest builder, but it's got the stories yep right. I think that the the dude where the disease has one of the best box ever got night. Oh, he on. He was just wrote out, buying binders are over grover cleveland or something like that.

Rough roared out the shooter bark d c The bog things are some wrong with it shoots it thinks himself nothing more than it was called a squirrel, lookin bachar a screw. You look back or something and then years goes by and someone finds in his garage, unlike well, above all, is the biggest about ever picked up. I love you hatfield. Actually, he was I'd a job, but I will to work. For me, see was the bnp guy that was doing those books. There has got the girl s got the best act of any bird. Yet oh, look at idols greatest meal dear. If you look at the cover the burglars on was next bruno crack? Romania has been around four hundred, and I can't do that. Thirty, some thirty two ever get it fixed yes, there, like a mid life crisis that happened, like happens like why I was now. Do you guys

launch. New initiatives are watching people on We want a sort of see what's out of buena crack what're, they gotta do Bernie does obviously go to our website and you know we try to keep everything updated there, but you know we're going to continue our policy work with a focus on again habitat health, wildlife, health and public access, and because those are things that just that are not that. You always have to address and we know we're so we the three gonna like that, while I felt tat health and public access godfrey mainly are three. focusing. As you know, that's no way. To sum it up. Benzene and in all areas, straightens change

I know we have to change with those things, so we under yeah we can deal with what the politics deal are dealt forward. We have to deal with the hanover dealt, I guess, and but you know it, we we just keep plugging along and and that's really all we can do, and You know I've had some successes. We had some failures. We had done you're one of the most exciting things perfect for a personal perspective, because beaten before Buena crockett the day that I and probably about thirty or forty other select infringes the work on for the past. Twenty five years is full funny build uneasy. F. Witches could be with the great o doors america a great at merk outdoors, at right around the corner for the first time in twenty years. I hope so feeling has been around the corner for a long time. Now it is yes now you know we got. We got full authorization a year ago. Now, if we get full permanent funding- and you know that's that's a big-

It has been a long appeal fight, but you know you, don't get it if you don't get everything done here. We were better to do things right, not fast, and so you, you know you got to kind of look at the landscape. Look at what is here. We have twenty to twenty things on our policy agenda that we would like to see done. What are those things? Can we get done in one particular administration might only be six so a focus on no six things for those four years of those eight years and then that's what that's what we focus on you know, for example, right now: endangered species act well,. You know, that's an old ass. He was put in for very good reasons and we need to keep that act, but it does need to be watered down and so on. I dunno we have the appetite in congress for that right now, so why we don't want to waste our time on that again. We know we just want to focus on the things we do think we can move the needle on and but it's always going to fall into one of those three categories: habitat

While I fell through public access, that's interesting the need to arm the need damn that list in order just be most effective, with what, with what's goin on yeah to be able to say. Well, you know what this issue is important to us, but now's, not the time, but it'd be a great time for this issue. Right right and that and then getting the people together to do that. The different conservation organizations out there to help with that, so the rocky mountain out foundation in other pheasants group, the mule dear group, an end so being able to bring those people to the table. When those issues come up and knowing, when the strike you. Yet, I guess an important point that did kyle brought up, because you know one of the things that are organization is able to do, because

We don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak. In terms of you know, events and funding and cause we're pretty much utterly funded. You know, and you know we can- we can facilitate a lot of things facility work with among all the different organizations out there, twenty years ago this in august, we we had a meeting at our headquarters with them with the nonprofits at the time that were involved with the sportsmen's bass conservation. There were seventeen of them represented, including some of the ones that kyle mentioned rocky mount elle foundation, the mule deer, guys well national, wild turkey federation, and you know the whole objective of that meaty was to you know a conservation wasn't moving at the time. Very. Very well, and I you know the club It's an opportunity to say: ok, you know what we're not succeeding here It will all go in different directions. We gotta we gotta check our egos at the door. We gotta check our genus door, we're going to sit down and how we can work together to get the job done.

It would boil down to that original meeting in August two thousand was from was an organization of of it started out to be seventeen hours today. It's forty five sportsman's based in shooting sports based organizations represent roughly eight million votes and when there is an issue that comes from congress, we draft letters that all these are innovation sign onto the go too far congressional delegations and say we're in favor of this or we're not in favor of that and and they listen, I mean. Eight billion votes is nothing to sneeze at soil. You know, if you, if you look at the for sporting community overall, I think, is better organizing. It ever was at debt that policy level, which is what Another reason why we're actually making some headway in the past pasta you few years that today we hadn't real that we hadn't been making, but but you know that that's one of our strange as to be able to bring those kind of groups together and in an and focus on a common on common ground. We ve

what foster, who leads the theodore. Roosevelt conservation partnership on the show a couple times and we had more recently some months ago now we're here, six point where he sand that the periods of real by partisan dysfunction- Aren't necessarily bad for conservation because when you have such a tumultuous situation in the house and Senate four times you can get good piece, a concert can stuff through because they're, just looking for a win like these broad, these things that have some pretty broad support when they have nothing going on and everything's acrimonious. It's like a thing that they can pass, and so he does I feel totally pessimistic about and that's why you're looking at some of the achievements we've have over the last handful of years where they had- and you know some good conservation bills

because his view is that it just gives them lisa the kind of agree on in a move through some kind of eels, some common sense conservation work. You that opinion you and when you know no, actually I do. I do yeah anti. Our she p is a very active member of that data be superior whirl of conservation partner coalition I just mentioned, and they were at the first meeting back in two thousand and so in witness which right I mean, I think there, The divisiveness, even though it's not pleasant to deal with, and I'm not exactly sure in the overall health of our country is it Good thing and I believe that it is now, how did you know? I will tell you for our world? It has at times not all the time, but at times were tired vantage We could say like here's, the good you could do up yet

If you will the support that we have or it it gets tacked on of some piece of legislation to get get. You know somebody's bill passed it so yeah. I think you know it it it it. We ve tried, as it is outdoor conservation conservation community, take advantage of those types of things to do a good thing to turn. What is not is not to necessarily a great thing into some. Please come at the end of data. About is a good thing. You this! This conversation came out of his arm. In fact, those toward the is an early the early part of the new year here and where we had put to him liked twenty nineteen like films, opera, thumbs down for conservation and he had felt that it was the thumbs up here absolute, on all the absolutely we we made some great comrades last year, ass, great here. It is almost think their day we're talking about

all the planes tribes, some planes tribes used to have the practice was that they would have a robe like a buffalo robe, and basically, they were distill down a year into a symbol. You know, and the simple more could be a number things like could be like someone being sector like something those financial year for hunting roared out you'd like make a thing like to wrap it up. You know I'm here to say and how twenty twenties is shaping up to be like the book. shit yeah, I know it'd be great. If twenty twenty one ended on February eight, unfortunately, it didn't seem to be going great, permitted, yeah yeah, but no, I think twenty twenty was a great year for

for conservation, twenty two or twenty nineteen or yeah twenty eighteen was a great year. We had ominous bill, we addressed the fire, the wildfire funding fix. You know trying to give our agency more money to manage our forests instead of fight wildfires, and you know that was a great that the farm bill had some great to have had some great wildlife and habitat health and language. In its s. Forty seven senate bill forty seven, which that had a lot of public lands great things for public lands in it yeah we did. We did some. We did some good work last year is twenty twenty shot? I guess if we can get the great american out was the sportsmen's act, would was the eight, the great american outdoors outdoors, and it's supposed to be on the dark at here over the next couple of weeks will now that's great, as I'm assuming that once like october has nortons gonna happen well, yeah

it can cause. Your campaigns mean that I mean it'll, be like so yeah you know in in in in the past, that's kind of where the way it's been. Of course, this is Jojo never oh, but I think we it's in our best interest again as a community as much done as we as quickly as we can point because most of the legislation that's on on deck right now has been stuff. That's been worked on, so it's not like we're. We're trying to create language is finished its it. We were just off your os wherever it portion the deal. So if we can get it across the finish line, it it'll be great. No in a net so tat your question, I dont think twenty twenty shot. I think his aim and about. Feel shot well from an early on the sixth mug re. Some organisations is needs, go away. This dark. I understand the eternal optimistic, but no

We still got some some good things going out there I mean, I think again, the health of our country, the health of our economy, it it it it it. You know it's a driver that is going to resonate with, and you know with funding for what we want to do in you know in in in the conservation arena, and but by and large the the the the public in in in in general. I think they realize they may not know why, but that the our natural resources in our country are probably the most valuable asset that we have and without those regardless of wall street or anything else.

nothing jail and nothing else is going to tick yeah. You know so we've got to maintain the health and viability of our natural resource base. I'm glad to hear that you think that the public god recognizes that cause. I dunno. If I always feel that way. I like that, it's nice to think. Well, it goes better cities point about the you know the the quote: environmental, racism and also you know, there's it does it. It doesn't make any difference exactly where what how they think but they're at least aware of And they made on again, they may not know why they may not be exactly have all the right reasons, but at the same time

If folks are kind of aware of the fact that you know- or you know it's kind of important that we have healthy environment to live in, and it's a healthy in in now, there's going to be people to think we're cutting down too many trees. There's gonna be people that figure are not cutting down enough. You know science points to right. Now we need more active forest management. Overall, that's not going to be agreeable with with everybody, but the point I'm making is people are noticing it. You know people are saying you know we the forest health problem and I think that's a positive thing yeah, even though some of the details might become a little contentious right, details are always contentious. devils and emails. I like to think Have you no? I avoid Borderline like on additional love for my country, like a deep patriotism in his heart, picture like. How would I feel differently if it was what I feel differ?

it feels like an environmental wasteland right. not going help now right now, when I I grew up over the pillar, imbue Montana, which you know back when I grew up as a kid was not exactly the most environmentally pleasant place to look at but I will tell you know they ve made great strides in correcting at brown. No, you know couple fist. throughout this, after all, have to refuse her throne, but you know that, but your point is well taken I mean if we don't have a natural resource base, we don't have a wild places and wildlife than have those wild places to enjoy as a country did I just I don't. I think the patriotism part becomes a lot more difficult know for sure laws be proud of right did anything. I'd. Try to more more point out to people is on a grown up. he knows located what ever you you think, all the great thing.

Things in the wild life and suffer just there like by accident, untouched, like untouched by the hands of lady, like our now, they got touched rather feeble, though there is people like decided to have a b there right. Where was I conscious decision This decision that, like cost money and cause time like there's nothing accidental, don't let alone it was also the north american model itself, They realise that was It's awesome. They realise that I realized that it took me thirty years to realize it. I mean back in the late eighteen, hundreds, a real one that was realized and that people had the foresight, they didn't. Let us walk off.

we were, I lose some species bernal. But again I mean that's just also that a group of people or a collective of people took that on and said what we can't. Let this happen. Try to do like to try to do the impossible or or what other people were those things, like to bring up in his similar to one boon. Crockett started out as well as we're gonna american buffalo, I talk about that guy Hornaday and they were so sure that animals gone? That's why the national courts was they were sorcerers god they dispatched him out by rail. like an emergency order to go shoot a couple and save the skeletons yet because he wanted they wanted to build a have like a specimen. and he wanted hides and skeletons are hurry. Now your checks one that was originally the measuring system too, was so we could.

picture operator that now that you spoke to go, get like as many as he could get the up so that sunday appeal will be like that's what I look like a fair if it was a truck one back to the bronx zoo and they had a buffalo sittin there hanging out in new york and brown, No that's one of the grey ironies of that story is the later when they try to one of those projects of bringing a back to the great planes that day, They use as a source heard the brok zoo bringing them they're bringing bison. The east to the west now reads like that: lecter mentality prove to be very valuable. So we re guys attribute fighting guys in the web, hopefully get boon, crack the main aim of the air we got those earlier on that one early, so yeah, just type dead in you'll find is a great man. You got you know like samuel re, grandpas bar and you find some crazy dear. There now call on or fourteen hundred official measures out there.

You can find those on our website and maybe you'll make the all time maybe I'll make it hundred dogs doesn't matter just in says a lot of times a week rather see. Let's take wait till we, rather see a hundred, sixty and white tail out of it we ve never seen it before then the next two hundred and twenty two zero. That's that's tell us more about the management That being so whatever this area was doing, is now producing mature animals. So it's more exciting for us to see that animal come in from an area that we haven't might not have previously seen a cat come in or we were seeing him from there and then they kind of dropped off and now they're clicking back up now, book. I really want the more I think about it. This be a costume book you can make just for me. It be just the top one hundred, but the top one hundred everything. So it's all of the things

of north amerika game animals, but it's and you might otherwise have been used. the ratio right so be it. Probably you promote twenty way tails. ten me all dear one go so what about abbe a good, but what about a picked up head sure anchor? you don't care if there's not a story about that now, so we got a hundred taken, the top hundred b and c, and it be like No, you did well. How are you gonna break it I'll? Let you know it can't be like fifty mountain goat, southern, not that's not going to be exciting, like old mountain goat, I have two lions and made them I'll go to the best stories. We have no, because a good go that as normal, like threed, all she was surprised have five big whores is again recorded, this bill will outline the alright and crockett club.

Thank you very much guys up. We should those long time ago. Some weird happens. Let us know, they gotta get. I wanna have be that when you get then, when you have a hard called make like they like the bare thing or something that we come down to participate, make the call. Rather like a film here's. What I do in writing. Every hundred publication mean that damn reality lies me. That's a leading, dissolve us and puts it on someone filled asylum, philip. What do you say? also point out that buddha crockett club has a discount code. We're listeners of of this part here can get ten bucks off a yearly subscription to fair chase magazine. You got gotta, use the code, meat, eater and so

for folks? Listen right now! I can scan interesting well, go find Just how interesting and get your discount and crockett club's clubs. Publication verges. I guess ravenous! media pancakes. rapporteur The It's people they podcast the fish conservation. By one

The where the hell he's a man, a guy like that, so clearly, in other words, had failed to make no mistake about it. My friend had skinny watch

Right, you know. How can you do that Your mom? we should say the kills got his conservation. The the document conservation

we do not want to see the that's talk about the the kinds of hunting and fishing techniques. It's the figures vision.

For liberals and other part, a phone you're lucky like I was so, Public access to services

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Yes, some of these things might seem real civil nuclear the. as long as I up, but you get the idea.