Joe Nocera shares some recent updates on the story with Laura Beil, host of “Dr Death.”
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
On this special update episode of the shrink next door, really the damage done to the patient is during this
rooming phase, and that is where the therapist gains most of the control over the patient and the patient idolizes. This person wants to play.
the therapists. My main goal during that period was to please my psychiatrist. That was Michael I'll, be taking a deeper look at Marty market, which is experience, was I cursed cough and what can happen when a psychiatrist any site
I address crosses the line. You know, you're your mother's, no good stay away from her she's bad for you, you're siblings are going to really.
Take all your family money, so you better stay away from them. Had Ike's urging I've only had the courage to tell my mother died. I would never speak to her again. I, your friends, are no good for you. They don't even interest you, I'm all you need in your life. The idea was to cut my sister out of my life and that isolation leaves you even more powerless. Then what you went to therapy for in the first place and
sharing never heard before interviews from my reporting from voices
who can give us a deeper understanding of the psychiatrist patient relationship of this all kinds of different
signs of exploitation that go
and so it is maybe physical. It may be fine.
all of these things that decrease the power of the victim and increase the power of the therapist also be talking
with Laura beyond the host of another wondering podcast doktor death. Her investigation looked into a different area of medicine, neurology and the case of Doktor Christopher Dunk.
convicted of aggravated assault from maiming a patient doing surgery. It's a stir.
That raises serious questions about how this
designed to protect patients failed. That's all after
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from wondering and Bloomberg, I'm Joe. No sarah- and this is the shrink next door for this bonus episode I'll be talking with Laura Beale she's. The
of another wondering podcast doktor death about the case of neurosurgeon, Christopher Dunce, Laura thanks for joining me,
Joe, I'm very so happy to be talking with you, because we're both did podcast about doctors
why was stories are really different? They really get to core issues about trust in the matter.
system yeah. But I have to tell you, I have never come
heard, a story like this one before and the fact
that you know my story was already,
In the news I had heard about it, I read about it before even started, reporting and eat you,
to this story, literally because it was next door to you. That's pretty incredible when you first, I heard about this from Marty markets like what did you think
well you know it. I'm a journalist, so when
comes over to your house with a woman and says: hey Joe I'd like you to meet my sister fill us. I haven't talked to her and twenty seven years. You think how,
I knew I wanted to know more. I wanted to see if there was a story there and then it turn
out that Marty had so much documentary evidence that backed up his claims so
I walked away from this show. Thinking about what happened to my party was wrong. Was
the first rule for any doctor. Patient relationship is, do no harm
that's true psychiatry, just as it is for any any other doctor and so do no harm.
Free psychiatrist is a little bit different from others and that it means keeping some distance from the patient. So you can have a good therapeutic relationship, and these days it's not wasn't quite so two hundred and thirty years ago, but these days they even have the view that once a patient always a patient, so that even if the patient leaves your practice,
still supposed to treat that person as a patient so but, as we know in in life and probably in
doctor patient relationships. There are grey areas that come up. Can you tell me about those you're in the profession?
these days. Are they make a distinction between
Hungary crossings and boundary violations? So a typical bound
crossing might be you ve had a patient for twenty years. She invited to her wedding and you say: ok, I can do that
one off or it's raining outside and the patient doesn't have a raincoat or an umbrella, and so you say, oh
I'll, give the patient a ride home that that kind of thing is ok I'll. We talk to one of the pre eminent ethicists than psychiatry, Doktor, Glenn Gabert of Houston, and let me note that he was speaking about psychiatry in general and not talking space
thickly about Ike the patient can do whatever they want to do, but it's a therapist responsibility to to stop any.
Find a boundary violation. I always say in my lectures on this: the patient has no ethics code,
They can say whatever they want to say, or they can try to hug the therapist or whatever they want to do. But the therapist sets the boundaries. Doktor Gabert also outlines how boundary violations can happen. What we have learned from me
years of study, is there is a phenomenon called the slippery slope,
Revelations begin with non sexual violations, which are creating a slippery slope. I'll give you an example: the therapists stands up at the end of a session. The patient says to the therapist. I love you. The therapists without thinking says I love you too are thus not a total disaster is probably poor judgment, but if it stopped there that they might be able to discuss it, so the nothing untoward arose from it now in the slippery slope scenario, the next time the patient comes back here,
back here. She might say you said you love me and then the therapists might say. Yes, I just can't help being honest with you. You do something to me and I can't resist you and then he says I know we can act on this. Of course, then, when the patient leaves she hugs the therapist hugs back and they kiss and the therapies is weak
have any more of this physical contact and it goes on down from there to more and more physical contact, and maybe he loans, her money. Maybe they go meet for lunch so that all kinds of things would lead to eventually a sexual boundary violation and the idea is to have all practitioners of the mental health field constantly observe these small breaks in the usual frame of what therapy is so they can prevent harming.
You should know what is accused of sexual impropriety. But the big point doktor Gabby trying to make is that these violations start with small things and then over time the psychiatrist keeps moving the goalposts and eventually that completely warps the patient sense of what
Kay and his own. I was struck by Ike's own understanding of this barrier. He kept saying. Well, I I've never crossed a boundary because
I wrong, but never had sex with any that later,
I wrong, but he keeps coming back to that later. You didn't do that has run into that terrible thing. So therefore anything else I did his fine. He says three things one. I never had sex with a patient, too
recharge more than a professional fee and three
Oh by the way Marty wasn't my patient. Anyway, he was my business client
Now Marty says, of course, that he was his patient the whole time it's hard to ignore in all of this Marty's role, and- and I think that's the one thing that I also kept wondering
through this, I mean your wife's comment that it takes two to tango or even his sisters.
action in episode, six you know like well, he might have told you what to say, but you still did it at some level. He would he not have had control to just say no, you will, you would have
thought for sure, and it in and one thing I keep saying, as you know, Marty's a sophisticated man who as well
Kate, add any runs a company, and you know
Firstly, he said he
these decisions- he made himself, and I think he had this
on our ability and once Marty left assist
and cut himself off with his friends and and
we only had I to rely on I he felt like
he had no choice. But to do what I said, because I had no one else in his life at least that's my impression from everything. He taught me over the course of my reporting
this I'm just gonna say that's, that's also something that you saw, at least from the glimpse that I got in the pod cast of a way of
trying to control people as you systematically prune away
Everyone else rope who the person might turn to and rely on. You know, there's a voice
a famous case about this kind of thing
Ryan Wilson of the beat voice whose life
was taken over by his psychologist, Eugene Landy in the late
Indeed, in the eighties, none of the other beach boys could could talk to him or cm
he had a really had no one else in his life, except landing and just did whatever Landy said all
Firstly, he broke free and landings licence, at least in California, was taken away and and give known money for a while now been talking with him about this.
have you seen any evolution in his thinking about why this happened? Any new insights her reflections as he has the benefit of time, to be able to look back on it. We argue about it. He can sound as perplex today as the day he kicked out of the house in the hampered backward two thousand tat, really in fact now that it has some distance. It almost sounds like like he's talking about a different person or is talking about a dream or something that happened to someone else as we describe it.
episode. Sex, can you talk a little bit more about the different reactions between Phyllis and Marty? I in her she lost a lot too. I mean that's very clear. He he lost his thirty years, but she
She was also denied thirty years of our relationship, that's rather in
up until then. It had been the single most important relationship in her life outside her children and which is the whole thing, is very sad and in the crazy
is they lived in the same neighborhood for all those years,
remember that during one of our interviews, Phyllis described this kind of,
and she would do to check in on Marty while at the same time keeping her distance. He lived on eighty six straight. I live on eighty second straight.
was still doorman at his building. Who knew me who know my parents, who knew my kids so one
especially I would go by and say how is my brother,
and so I got. I did not go by that frequently I didn't make it happen.
walking by and saying hello, but whenever this particular doorman was was on, it would stop by
just say hi anyway, I would have done that regardless and let you know how is my brother and he would say: oh he walks in with his head things on, he looks down, it looks up. He doesn't you don't talk to anybody? One point I think he said that I don't know if they told me something was wrong. As I was in in all of those years. I actually saw him only twice down the street. He did not see me and I think, once it was, I was walking down. 86Th Street Court EAST end and I know my brother's walk and his stance, and I remember
in my head stand up, because I could hear my father Roma segments be proud. Work proud like why. Why are you won't hunched over and looking down, and so he went into the building and I waited a couple of seconds and I think I went up to the dormant as it was at the brother who just came in it. We said yes, I said how is he he's, ok and but that wasn't only twice in all the years, because I really avoided walking on eighty six feet I didn't want to bump into him. There was no need
on a different street, her her efforts to reach out to her brother over the years from time to time were
Either, with total silence the
time. Marty responded was when, when he
If you send him a sixtyth birthday card and he responded by saying, if you ever send me anything again, you know I will I will. I will have a restraining order against you, so sure
suffered, it hurt she. She was hurt a lot.
I over the years and she really missed her brother at they were very, very, very close before all of this happened. It's easy to forget what podcasts are businesses to at Wondery. We do all,
the business he stuff, accounting payroll marketing, but sometimes that business he stuff takes up way too much time like shipping that used to be so time consuming filling out labels lugging packages to the shipping place. Then we discovered ship station since the early days it wonderingly weave used ship station to ship all our
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Make ship happen, we got some questions from listeners through Facebook and twitter. So I'd like to ask you some of these cause they're, really good questions. The first one is, is it I cursed cough still practicing and, as he still have a
Iceland. The answers are yes, and yes, as I reported Marty's, had a complaint at the Department of Health for three years now, but after episode, six came out last week, a department lawyer got in touch with him and he has since had really his first substantive conversation with the department. I, since he filed the complaint back back in two thousand sixty, so it looks like there's a movement,
So another question from a listener who wanted to know how patience found ache to begin with
I was a pretty high profile member of the and why you medical school community, on fact for a while. He was there
president of the alumni association I'm. So he did get referrals from other doctors for sure he also got
for us. It was pretty well known in several synagogues in New York City and he got refer us from the right
buys any also got referrals from councillors for students to we're. Having
well at a number of the high end, a jewish schools,
so we had all these different kind of referrals, but though the patients that I wound up speaking to an interviewing, almost all of them
I came through a rabbi referral, but even Courtney love well, that's! Actually now
you mentioned it. So we had this other sidelined. I don't know quite how he got it, but he had this thing where he was. He did a lot of business with Hydra Hard Rock musicians, one of whom actually gave him apply.
no record that used to be hanging on the house in Southampton, and I think I think Courtney love came in through that route.
So I love origin stories. Tell me what we know about
hush tat. He was always growing up the smartest guy in the room or the smartest kid in the room. I should say ever
school. He ever went too. He was the valedictorian in
in the end, why you school of medicine where he actually gave
now the address not only for this,
of medicine. By for all, then why you and ninety seventy five at Madison Square Garden- and we also spoke
who knew him as a child very well,
afternoon harbour here I was
before our civil. Her half place sure how that
I suppose my name is
If you would talk to us about your step brother,
I'm a writer with Bloomberg,
we wanted to find out. If you would talk to us about your step, brother Ike
what about him? Civil is significantly older than I ten years older. She was
When, in Poland and she's a survivor of ass, she was actually four years old when the war ended her parents, both
survived Auschwitz as well, and so did I
I'll go in her arms and they were the jewish doctor and a jewish nurse in the camp, and they were able to protect a number of people.
including Ike's, mother and a stepsister, then
into America they landed in Washington Height, and I was born a few years
and you mentioned that this was an important part of Ike's life. His written
Out at a lot- and he talked about his
go and his aunt David in Sabah, who are they
after the nurse- what's the relationship like now between Ike and
sister. Well, they ve never really gotten along
and now they they definite
don't get along when long time, how long
more than one
Oh did you did you talk to her about the pod Caston, the subject of it and what you are working on? All we did
we found her in in in Brooklyn, and we gotta run
and we may we do said,
Do we tell them? We were running at doing a podcast about her brother and she said why and then she talked about how, at a certain point, they kind of went their separate ways she said. Well, you know maybe was just the aged difference, but we really were never close and we were never really friends and overtime. We became a strange and then
master in a. Why do you think he became a psychiatrist he wanted to the to? If it's a good answer,
but you don't really why he became a psychiatrist and all of that we are not familiar with it.
not really accept that bear the goose a reminder of power people in general.
Just in case you couldn't hear Sibyl there. She said well
not sure really accepted, gives them a certain amount of power over people in general. So if
could just step back from this particular story and tell me what you ve learned about how common psychiatric abuse in general is. Let's, let speak broadly about this, it's impossible to know how communism
for several reasons. First, although they do surveys from time to time, they're asking the psychiatrist and and who knows, if they're telling the truth of sex
lay, and this is at least as important. So we need
cases wind up being settled out of court and the documents are sealed and I'm so other people dont know whether the doktor abused his position or her position and finally
are the cases that do make their way to the newspaper are almost always about sex. I talk to you,
maintain Wolberg, who actually knows the details of many cases that have wound up being sealed, she's a patient advocate and she runs an organization called the therapy. Exe
dictation link line, so she hears from lots of patients who are awaiting their options and she
frames us all in an interesting way. What were real
looking at in the fairest exploitation area are not
so a linear occasional crossings of boundaries? What we're looking at is patterns of things that the has done started the group after being a victim of sexual exploitation by our own.
Therapist and allow the experience you see here through the link line or about sexual exploitation, and
a lot of. It is the grooming period we hear from people, for example, who the therapist first start,
making comments about alikes, address you're wearing today or are you know, that's very attractive or euro? Your skirt would be
Nice terrain you, if you weren't a little shorter and
by the way. Why don't I move you to the end of the day, so we have a little more time together, gather your very special to me. I care about you. Let me tell you about some of my other patients who were really crazy, or let me tell you about my
wife, but there's a lot of that personal revelation that goes on. So you look for patterns. You don't take,
any single event, as the thing that tells you that, if this is about the patient or about the therapists, do look for the whole, the whole
during the gushed alt, and we have we see much more damage very often in people where there was never sex where it was simply. The therapist took over the life literally took over the law.
of the patient air. We see some cases where they don't take over, but they use the patients in various ways they,
we had one, a woman who was a lawyer and she was doing the therapists tax returns and giving our
legal advice and then the therapists escalated it to the point at which the the therapist was having this patient.
Baby sit for her, is ultimately grandmother, so he and his wife could guy she and been hurt. Her mate was female. Therapist could could go out and do other things, so it was baby sitting for the for the elderly grandmother a part of the grouping the goes on to finally get to being totally and control of the patient by the by the exploiter by the abuser has jus, with isolating the victim the potential victims from all of the rest
cuz of her support services, and that means a very systematic. You know you're your mother's, no good stay away from her she's bad for you.
Who we're siblings are going to really take.
your family money. So you better stay away from them.
May your kids, I'm being good to you, you should cut them off
Your friends are no good for you. They don't even interest you, I'm all you need in your life and that isolation leaves you even more powerless
Ah, then, what you went to therapy for in the first place, that that rendered you in some part less powerful than the therapists classic classic thing. One of the things it some patients do some victims do is try to recoup those relationships by sending somebody they care about to their abuser. It's a very clear
thing to try and sent a friend, a neighbour or some other way of trying to bring some of those people who were in your support circle back into your support circle, and it's a guaranteed way of making sure that that person is never in your support circle. Again, we ve had therapist, we ve heard abusers who have actually taken those sort of gifts that their that their victims have given them and use them against. The victim turned
the friend and the victim against one another saying you know you know what so and so said about you. You know you said so, and so me so is it of fairy can hoarded way of treating that support circle? Most of it is pushing away, and some of it is using it against the victim. A so a personal question after it, just diving into this story has changed your own view about psychiatry in that pact.
of psychiatry are not at all not at all. Are you may know this, but a year and a half ago I wrote about my own struggles with depression for Bloomberg and in I made the point that you know I have had. I been lucky to have a really good psychologist to talk to, and I've been lucky to have a really good psychiatrists to prescribe medication and they really important people in my life, and they save me on several occasions. Love. Thank you. So much tat, Fer, a great power station,
interesting interesting story and podcast. I I really enjoyed talking with you about it will. Thank you Laura issues, a pleasure.
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to the wrong person for help
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So it's producer is Lee Hernandez executive produced by George Lavender Marshall, Louis and her Non Lopez for one night
I could hold so after we finished recording.
said seven. We got some
additional updates. Yes, we did
and I'm hoping that you can catch me up. You said something about news from my: u right until very recently, Ike her scarf was listed as a clinical professor of psychology.
and the end, why you medical school website and then a few
years ago. I click through
with an eye. Instead of coming up microscopic, came up page, not found, so I called the school to ask.
what was going on, and its spokesperson told me that he had resigned from the first
did they give any other information about that. They did not that that was a very short one sentence statement,
and that was pretty much all they were all they were willing to say about it.
and then there was another up de about a different order,
position was involved. Where can you remember what it's called English through its the it's? It's called fact be. If they ask p the fellowship set out which, for the study
professional right in the final episode and episode six. That was where you had found out that I was
silly and master of Ceremonies person of their advance right. He ate it turns out he's on the board and he was the master ceremonies last year and this year it was also
state, giving a short ethics seminar with two of the fellows in the afternoon.
After we had finished taping. Yet so the chairman of our fast be his name is David common. He sent an email to get to the end
speak community and other interested parties like a kind of a deal. Yeah kind of name, is lighter and I'll. Just read you the entire thing in recent weeks, a blooming
opinion columnist is issued a series of part CAS alleging unethical professional behaviour by fast, be bored member doktor eyes a curse cough. There are no
our gaze of any wrong doing by or on behalf of factory. As you know, our organization is dedicated to the task of helping professionals, particularly those just beginning their careers, to uphold the highest standards of ethical conduct and personal responsibility. We hope and expect that our fellows are bored and our staff will meet those standards doktor whose cause as told me that he disputes many elements in the conclusions of the report. Sat me is not in a position to investigate the allegations made
the report are the reporting underlying the podcast doctor, who scarf has it by fast food that he wishes to resign from the board to focus on his work and to ensure that fast food mission is not questioned. The board has accepted his resignation and deeply appreciate Dr Hurst cost efforts on behalf of our organization.
It's called says and that wasn't saying to you that was just sent in to people who are members are affiliated with fast me. That's death has Ike issued any kind of comment on
either of those resignation are not yet. We only learned about the second resignation hours before this episode was due to be released. We reached out to him for comment, but he only had a few hours to respond and we haven't heard back. If we do, we hear from him will provide
update on the theme of website creating an interest Bloomberg dot com. It's less shrinking star sailor, rags great for things to tell I thank you crystal ok, Bob.