A summer party. A stormy night. And a shocking revelation about Joe’s neighbor next door.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
By any measure. Marty markets was a success.
He had an ivy league diploma, a large degree, his own business and plenty of money, but when he hid thirty, eight
no self feeling seriously overwhelmed his.
Rabbi recommended a therapist. He knew who had an office,
it happens a like
office, which was
honestly furnished office with a desk and a chair.
And a couch, the thorough
his name was. Doktor Isaac Hearst cough
told Marty, column, Ike,
he was a young handsome man with a round face a close crop beard and curly black hair. He was dressed casually and an open collar, shirt and shorts. I sat down right across from
and we looked at each other, and you said: okay, why are you here? Marty had seen a therapist before
I knew it listen. While you lay down on the couch and talk about your dreams, this therapists was different,
is a modus operandi was basically I'm. Your pal tell was borrowing and lets take it from there.
We spent the whole session laying out his problems. He told I colors,
father and mother had recently died. How
inherited the family business, how he was having a heart.
I'm dealing with his new responsibilities when he finished Marty's
I looked at him and said I M going to take you want, is a patient and I said: ok
he's. Not only was I'm taking a mine is a patient, but here
Marty. I promise you said, don't worry I'll, take care of everything
I was overwhelmed and to have some
say to me: don't worry
calm down. This is nothing new.
It is said about we're, gonna straighten everything out and we're going to do it fast, very calm.
We need to me, Marty wrote a check, I think was for
a hundred and sixty dollars, something like that. Back back in the day
It was June nineteen. Eighty one Marty had come to I because he needed help
but if he had known what is new therapist had in store for him.
Probably would have walked out the door and never come back
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from wondering and Bloomberg
Jonas, sarah- and this is the shrink next
this is episode. Warm welcome to the neighbourhood.
Every neighbourhood has a chair of mysteries,
We can live our entire lives and barely know the people just one door down. I have a summer house in Southampton.
Couple of hours outside of New York. This part of the Hamptons is called the bayside. It's quiet, peaceful place to escape from the city in the hot summer months.
Simpson and Jackie Guiana have a house on the same street. Is me my name is Jack
and we're married thirty five years, remarried fifty two years they ve been coming here since the eighties.
Most of the houses on our streets are single story with wooden clapboard fronts. Sampson Jackie's house
No different, so lovely home really, but there's one
house on the street that stands out. For starters, it's just bigger than most of the other houses. It's too stories, and
I of one and is the only one on the street with a separate, guesthouse out back and then
This is the way it looks. The house's Spectre
cooler with windows and windows windows. Every thing about it is over the top, this upon with goldfish lots of fish and a waterfall to the pond too,
its bigger old rasher than anything else on the street in two thousand ten, my wife dawn and I bought the house
Next door and right away, our neighbours, place, gave dawn. Headache differ
thing I said to my has, and was we
are going to screen as much
We can do about that.
Promptly, and we did. We ended up planting a border of bamboo. That was the very first property that we tried to through careful landscapes.
Screen personally, what's wrong with that? Aside from what we can see from our yard, the house
store was the last thing on her mind or mine.
That matter, we just had a bit,
be so we were a little preoccupied, but even if we were
paying attention to our neighbours the
They were paying attention to us
were male man to the next door, neighbours people
quickly learned that Joe worked for the New York Times. It wasn't law
before a man popped over to our house to introduce himself he was.
Like a maintenance man, green catchy, pants along sweep workshops and faded baseball cap. He welcomed us to the neighbourhood.
And then he handed us a folder of press. Clippings literally just took them and said thank you in, but he wanted us to have them in it. He really wanted Joe to happen. There were articles that a psychiatrist, Doktor Isaac, Hirsch, cough had written
articles that had been written about him in MID August.
Invitation arrived to a summer barbecue next door hosted by doktor hearse Ike
this would be the last of three big summer parties. He through every year, I went alone to reach the front door. I had to cross a bridge over a fish pond
or maybe forty or so guest hanging out in the back yard. I roamed about
stopping here and there to chat. I spotted the actor rigid kind
just in time to see him do a belly flop into the pool. There were a handful of other people to people. I recognized is permanently Yorkers.
Doktor roof. The tv personality and sex expert
It was a warm afternoon. I chatted with a few people sipped on my glass of wine.
And began to wander around. At some point, I found myself in the living room. There was a fake giraffe bust, Phoenician mask plastic parents hanging from the ceiling, even a giant gong, but would struck me most with
photographs lots and lots of photographs, and in nearly every one of them there was Ike. Ike was Henry Kissinger. I quit Brook shields Ike with find a Paltrow, EVA Nike, with Oj Simpson. It was like one of those diners where the walls were covered with pictures of celebrity patrons at
a moment the man himself appear. He greeted me like a long, was friend and said that my wife and I should come over soon for a drink and then
He was gone sure enough. A few days after the Summer Party,
play maintenance. Man we met before showed up at our door again. This time he brought an invitation for drinks, it was
very formal as if he was reading from a script like doktor scaffold.
Wants you to come all right at five,
at a time when such and such a day in the formality of it, blew me away, and he was very, very exacting
how it had to go so we win.
One of the strangest evenings I've ever had the hamptons or anywhere
for that matter a definite lanterns
It was pouring rain
we headed over umbrellas enhance together the front door. We crossed a bridge. We could
coy circling in the water below I can his wife
He welcomed us in. I showed us to a round kitchen table. There were signed
laid out care
its and salary. I observed white wine
so what I remember is
things that I really remember him talking
incessantly about being a sex therapist than a celebrity therapist, and I cant remember the details that debt just really sticks in my mind that he kept going on and on about that
more like a monologue, gonna dialogue. That's what I remember. What do you remember? I remember thinking,
These people are, I felt, suffocated item
about his work. I've never seen anything like it. I remembered thinking he was very
Brazen about the details of his life can theory we were strangers and also concerning what he does. He did talk about it and the ape sport
skies and somebody a Yankees player. I
star. He laughed aloud discretion given his feet.
We listen politely as he went on and on. I just remember, looking too
the door finally
after about an hour
I said we needed to get home
and we got up to leave and it was very clear that I wanted to photograph a photograph of me
I think he came out and sad or would like to get a picture of you, and I was just Joe. It wasn't Joan. I then it hit me. I wanted a picture because in his eyes a columnist for the times was a kind of celebrity. I remember desperation. Can we get your photographs and that we'd like to get
photograph. I thought the whole thing was this straight strange:
couldn't see away out. I was due.
To hang on the wall with Richard Kind, o J and going to patrol ok, I said, and I quote, to grab a camera one of those instant all right things. He led me
alcove, where they were hundreds of other photos pinned to the wall,
I didn't want to be another face on the wall. To tell you the truth, it felt weird, but I also wanted to be
like, and I really wanted to get out of there. So I left I take my picture.
The two his walk and then we left as fast as we could.
Remember getting her home collapsing on a couch or something
don't call me. She never wanted to go back. Every member sang jail was a cross between a scene from me
the fuckers an
something was the other thing we Fellini Piazza Lily.
There was no sign of the maintenance man than I don't and I went on, but I knew
still around sometimes we'd beyond our deck and we'd see him outside working in the yard. My neighbour
saved and G. I saw him too. I remember doing conversation I meant
before his property is
and how lucky he was or is to have.
Fellow that runs around all of time, taking care of the property he remarked,
yeah, I was lucky. They deserve a good worker when I return to them.
Captains the following summer. I noticed something strange at the house next door. I would see the maintenance man out on the
property, doing his usual work in the back yard. But I cursed cough was gone. I would never see him or his wife Becky in the house,
think again. There were no more summer parties, it was as if they had simply disappeared, and that's when I learned
everything I had thought I'd known about. My neighbor was wrong.
It's it's a wild story. That's the maintenance man, the guy. You came to our door with a Prescott
the guy. We saw working around the yard, that was Marty markets.
The same guy, would first gone to see. Doktor Isaac hearse costs as a patient. Nearly
thirty years earlier.
Hey, I'm Stephen Johnson Post of wondering show american innovations. We go deep into the stories of the scientists and engineers and ordinary people behind the greatest discoveries of the past century. Did you know that Philo Farnsworth dreamed up the modern television while he was plowing a field when he was just fourteen years old? This week we started two episode series about his journey to create electronic television and the corporate struggle that robbed him of his place in history, to listen to this
great series subscribe now to american innovations from wondering if there was a welcome of which said the Hirsch Golfs on this fall day.
Markets is wearing cocky pants, a zipper fleece,
And velcro sneakers
he's now. Seventy six but looks at least
decades, his small
wired and, on this occasion, unshaven behind
a had from the animal shelter where we got his dog must stay inside stay baby Marty, big
to show us around the property starting with the fish pond. We build the point. This did not
what the House Marty so
the pond was one of its first editions. There were a number of things that I had great ideas about in. One of them must have put a beautiful, coy pond approaching the front entrance. We
had now coin here for all over twenty five years, we want from the front hall into the living room. The fur
It is mostly the same, but the walls are far less chaotic
Wally were pictures of celebrities. Why were their pictures celebrities? I was
I was a celebrity hound and the went out of his way to get himself photo,
the variety of different celebrities different, especially sports celebrities,
We walked down the hallway back into one
The two wings of the house-
in the master bedroom. I expect room it's.
Fairly ordinary, except for the Alps.
Lately massive staircase smack bang in the middle of the room. While we're downstairs, we shall look into the master bathroom is pretty.
Big. There were angle.
Viable it just you can
And walked in here there were so many things highly were birds hanging, flamingo
is hanging down. There was
all kinds of stuff. There was a giant double mirror over here, which opened up very kitchen, all kinds of stuff. That's my producer crystal ripple. I never thought
cool. I just thought it was that's what he wants to do. Let him do it wasn't my be. I was using this bathroom, the boy.
Through was one of Ike's answers to what he saw as the central floor of the house. He was a little disappointed that the house looked very ordinary, and so he felt it.
Needed, an addition
Dixon was a second for sunrise,
So here we are in the upstairs son room. It's quite a nice room in one corner is a life size, skeleton
from the Sun Room Windows. I can see the poor and the wooden decorative circles
in the Eightys and Ninetys. The pool had been the centrepiece of every summer party today is covered in dead leaves clinging to the time I am with you
We go outside a trail wines, two trees and towards the guest house, part of a separate line.
Conferred upon. So I had a grand plan to develop. Then the two properties
and, and this spectacular job right it's not something that personally, I would have ever done, because I am uneasy going, but there are parts of this back building here that a pretty we're all this the sun dial up,
the sun, dial, isn't some small garden ornament, its forty feet, tall, a copper prong thrusting up from the
and you are. They bore a guy in from France to do the copper turning it's urgent
has a copper roof. The building this gets to arm I need to.
Every thing different from everybody else. I try and then there are the cows. He insisted on insisted life size statues of cows. There was
anti. Deal are here on the highway, who put a few cows
there and, I said to me: go there and by a family of cows
which way did their large. There lie a large black and why I like it, I think, is an cute specially with the baby I'll just passed. The family of cows is a full size. Basketball court equals
about basketball and then the crown jewels. The miniature golf course
What do you do with the front yard for she put in a nine humanity golf course? But if I was eighteen, oh yeah, the answers that eighteen holes, he insisted that each all have two cups so that he could bragged that it was an ape
in golf course. I even gave the course a name dear head. This basically was for the parties. This was too
here's the party interests to break that he had how golf course for in
very very good golf course: people for love
Everyone comes out here and plays God loves it. It's definitely a place for entertaining a fantasy land, but there is another side to this.
Which Marty has buried underground, Raynham forced the poor and say a thing
the sun, dial isn't just another Corky feature is also the entrance to the basement. A door at the base of the Sun dial opens to a flight of wooden stairs. The basement is unfinished
and a bit dusty. There are dozens of green storage tubs and a few old vice
because leaning against the walls, there are high
the frame photos spilling out from boxes lean
against the walls, even
pile of identical brass frame stack than a corner. This
is where Marty Historic, most of like stuff party montages
he's from the various places in the House more party month. We start to sort through the frames,
Marty shows us one tall frame that holds a series of photos, celebrities posing with Ike's youngest daughter, Michael J, Fox James Taylor,
and during your men to harass Elton John Doktor Ruth
Who is it that that's that's so all of them?
stuff, those on the walls.
There are so many I mean how many oh, my God years after everything had been taken
there are still reminders of Ike and not just the cat
statues in the toy fish.
Marty- shows we a box full of New York or type cartoons that I kid hung in Marty's bathroom. This is
cartoon with two panels.
The first one has a cigar man on a couch and talking to a psychiatrist asked him. Are you afraid of change the patient?
replies no, the skies.
Replies and the second pal good go get me a soda.
This was my relationship with
whenever he needed. Marty's life was
had begun the moment he made the decision to walk into Ike's office in Manhattan nearly three decades earlier. I'm very embarrassed that I let myself in on the same from, but it's like a cold to me. I was in a cold, but Marty wasn't in a cold. He was in therapy early
That's what it was supposed to be. I haven't had a by look after me for the twenty seven years, except
and his family, like everyone else who visited the house next door, I hadn't
Oh idea, Marty was Ike's patient. Why?
Would I remember that at the very first time you and I met you knocked-
and you said I work for a very important psychiatrist in New York
You should have very important New York City psychiatrist. They might occur
Often. He would like to invite you to a party. That's the fairy first eyes hurry. He told me to say that you just like that,
Wasn't the maintenance man he was the owner. He had bought the house back and nineteen eighty six he had paid for almost all the fantasy land
the cows, the miniature golf course, the sun dial the Sun room, everything it was his house not
the real story about Marty from my neighbors jacking and Samson gear. That far,
Sampson and Jackie had been on one of their regular afternoon walks around the neighborhood? They always made the koi pond in front of ice house there last stop before going home. We love watching the fish, especially them.
Big once called decoy, that's one,
He was moving
off around allows. The house was in chaos, there were boxes everywhere, Ma
he was out front and there was no sign of Ike. Everything was in tumult. A lot of things were off the walls, including the photos of Ike, and
guess and everything like that. He was sort of Lord cleaning out a resigning, and we were asking me what was going on these issues
turning everything tat. I
What do you mean you returning everything die? That's when my
they told Samson something he'd, never told anyone before
as well known. This is my house. I don't want to hear anymore. We were flight
because all those years we thought I was the owner, they were also sceptical. I wasn't really convinced at first,
That's what he was telling me was in fact true. Who is he
For me to believe that this kind of person needed
He couldn't do anything for himself that
you else had to be taken over by the second.
Interests, not too long
after I heard the neighbourhood gossip Marty came over to reintroduce himself to me, not as the maintenance man this time. But as my neighbour,
He told me he was on a mission. He was D. I clean the house taking down there
instant reminders of eye the plastic figurines, the charts keys and, of course, the photographs he had filled six giant crash bags with icon Becky's clothing
taken them to the: U P S door and had them shipped eggs Apartment in Manhattan. Marty put everything else in the basement, not justice.
Celebrity photos in frames, but home videos, birthday cards, legal documents, manuscripts letters and was
liberating by the way and to take all of us.
Unfortunately, I had a place. I could store the basement of the of the
I guess south. Otherwise it would have thrown out. It was an archive
of his relationship with Ike, some doctor,
sums are dangerous,
twenty nineteen out of human thought. He was on the brink of making history his company, we work, was valued at forty, so
billion dollars Adam made people believe that together
would change the world. So how did it all crash down in less than forty
Is he would be forced to resign as ceo and preside over the largest destruction in shareholder value since Enron, I'm David Brown host of business wars and from wondering comes, we crashed a thrilling story of hubris in excess powered by group. Think a cult of personality and the desperate desire to crown the next tech unicorn subscribe to. We crashed and apple podcast. Now, after listening to this episode of the shrink next door, you may be ready
for something a little more light: hearted more Hollywood than Hamptons, more Olivia, Wild and NEO Patrick Harris than a psychiatrist and his patient from wondering the makers of the shrink next door and business wars comes. Life is short with just in long an actor in comedian. Everybody likes this one guy hates my face so much tat. He wrote about it. Some books are like the face of just in long. This is a highly punishable face. Stay tuned until the end of the episode for a preview of life is short, would just in long
he chats with NEO Patrick Harris and don't forget to subscribe to life, a short on apple podcast or wherever you're listening to this right now, because life is short.
That's first post ike summer I'd see Marty outside. He still maintain the proper to himself and sometimes at walk over, and we talk.
He would tell me stories about his time with Ike
I think you know those on his birthday. He would insist,
then I give him a gift. Since this insist,
So he would say: ok, it's my birthday,
and we would walk all round the forty second street to the sneakers store on forty six
street, and he would by himself a fancy, Paris of, and that was my gift to him,
had plenty of therapy in my life
and none of my therapist, whatever demand that I buy them, sneakers on their birthday, it was
hard to imagine, Marty describe falling under expel so thoroughly that he let I take over a house he owed. Sometimes Marty sounded as if he could hardly believe at other times. He sounded angry. He called what I did to him existential evil, but I also
Found myself questioning Marty's version of events? Could it really have happened the way he described it, a psychiatrist? Who would transform the patient into his personal servant? As my wife Doin liked to say it takes two to tango.
Whose two thousand twelve and I was still writing for the New York Times. I decided that this was a story I needed to investigate. So I picked it to my editors and got to work that men. Of course, I had to talk to
when I walked into Ike's office, one of the first things I noticed where the frames.
Wall behind his death was a mini vote.
Of the old living room in Southampton House. It was full of frame certificates from N Y, you, medical School Queens College, five, beta, kappa and a host of other institutions.
Desk- was a mess overflowing with books and papers. We sat down him on the couch
and me on a leather chair across from I placed the tape recorder on a table next to me, tested at once and hit record
I told me that, yes, he had known Marty Marcos for thirty years and that for all of that time he was the only one protecting Marty from the many people trying to take advantage of him, but he also told me that money was
deeply troubled man that recently Marty had embarked on a vendetta against him Marty. He told me with someone he cared about deeply any couldn't understand why money had turned on him after such a long and fruitful relationship after two hours
decided to call it a day we agreed to meet again in a few weeks. We shook hands and I left, but when
got home. I realized I had made a horrible horrible mistake. The tape was blank. The interview was lost to make matters worse. I never got the chance to speak to Ike. Again he cancelled the second interview.
But just because we didn't speak didn't mean I never heard from him again dear Joe. I hope
you and Don and the Kentucky Derby, and that your sixtieth birth.
Celebration was everything you had hoped it would be with the benefit of all
I'm too them I can
respond to Emma Lambs accusations in an organised fashion.
This is the only way that I can reasonably defend myself. I
Let me several long emails. This isn't Ike by the way. This is an actor he'll. Be
reading all bikes writing in the series and within
long letters. I had a simple explanation for everything I was hearing occasionally
People will do something that they might subsequently regret. Conscious,
the sub consciously or unconsciously. They might not,
want themselves to take responsibility for that act. Conveniently there is in
nip it in Spain Golly to take the blame instead, unfortunately, every site
I trust and many other authority figures will at some point in
under this displacement problem. Fortune
de there isn't? Usually a newspaper reported living next door to publicize it. I believe that if you
floor. Each delegation thoroughly, you will arrive at home,
fully the same result. Ike said he was
Devastated stated by the way Marty was behaving any couldn't understand,
Only anger was coming from a pointed out
that Marty, Marco, who we were first.
To buy the initials M M or M M was in fact a success.
Business man with a law degree any needed to take responsibility.
For his own actions. Is that of blame.
Everything on Ike for twenty nine
yours on a regular basis. Emmeline would repeatedly expressed his gratitude to me for having quote say
his life and more imports
Lee for quote making
his life, a joy. If, in fact I had
committed some existential evil crime against him. Wouldn't this
see he oh lawyer have been aware of it.
Before someone apparently convinced him of it months after we parted
and the house in the Hamptons Joe
you blame me for the fact that you thought that Southampton belong to me.
The time that I was there. You had far more content,
with M o m than with me if you
I need you to know that Southampton in fact belong to him. Why didn't he tell you.
Why was it my responsibility not is?
Why do you blame me? He also
A very different picture of Marty M M felt strongly that any animal that wandered onto his two acres Southampton estate was literally fair game, raccoons cats, dogs,
wilder collared, older young or all threats to his precious, coy fish. He claimed. I quote that Marty would catch animals and tat
jobs and if they were still alive when he found them he'd submerged
and rubber bins filled with water until the trapped animals drowned. The fact that he continued this practice
even in the dead of winter, when the koi were hibernating under a sheet of ice in vulnerable to predators, suggests,
that this was but another manifestation of his sadistic tendencies? All
evident in his cereal vendettas, Ike made Marty's life, a joy money drowned animals,
I had no idea who is right. Maybe dawn was right when she said it takes two to Tango Joe
I am sincerely sorry that our relationship has to end in this manner. It pains
me that you have such an apparently unalterably negative impression of me for real.
Beyond your writing this article, but I have to accept that there is,
thing. I can do about that.
You're back. He and I had you and on over for wine appetizers
an enjoyable conversation two years ago,
genuinely hope to get to know. You
say it wasn't in this way warmly Ike. In the end,
the story. Never ran in the times my end
just taught me that it needed more work. Shortly. After that I fell into a deep funk and when I came out of it, I didn't have the energy to finish the story. I made a few more cars. I did a few more interviews and then,
Then it aside, I kept talking to mining summer after summer
he was my neighbour after all, and the more
told me. The more questions it raised had I taken advantage of mourning for decades
Always they were another explanation. What was real?
what was fantasy
and I ve always had gone down. The way Marty said it did. Why
Hell was I still practicing psychiatry, as the
years passed. I never.
Feeling that I needed to finish what I started. So I took it up again. We called I am. I am trying to reach a crush us as making high doctor
cause. My name is Crystal ruffle: I'm a producer working for Wonderin Bloomberg. I've been trying to get in touch with you because I ve been talking to Marty markets and I left you just talk to you. If you have a few minutes, we invited him several times to give us an interview, large torture, so you say we reached out to again. As I finish reporting this year,
He sent several letters like the Wonted sent back in two thousand twelve in them
he strongly disputes. How Marty describes their relationship
he says: Marty made all his own decisions.
He says: Marty bought those cows for the Hamptons House on an impulse purchase that
I didn't want to sleep in the master bedroom. He said that money did by him sneakers for his birthday, but that Marty also bought a pair for himself.
We share our innermost thoughts and deepest secrets in order for psychiatrist to help us, and we trust that discretion. Doctors, including psychiatrists, have long understood. They have a kind of.
Our especially over the more vulnerable patients. One of the principles of medicine going back thousands of years is the first do no harm. Doctors still follow this guidance to this day. Maybe it
harder in the case of a psychiatrist, to see whether they are helping or harm, and we
to draw the line and may be part of the answer was right next to me inside the house next door,
about power, control and turning to the wrong person for help. If you'd like to help us spread. The word please give
and turning to the wrong person for help if you'd like to help us spread. The word please give us a five star review and tell your friends to subscribe
as well as wondering Dotcom visit Bloomberg
as well as wondering Dotcom visit, Bloomberg dot com, slash shriek next door for more on this story, including images and extended.
Content if you're listening on a smartphone, tap or swipe over the coverage of this podcast.
You'll, find the episode notes, including some details you may have missed. You'll, also find some offers from our sponsors. When you support our sponsors, you help us bring, you are shows for free and thank you. The shrink next door was written in reported by me. Joe no share senior producer is Crystal rippled Bloomberg. Had a pot gases Francesca fact, checking by Molly Nugent sound designed by Jeff Schmidt executive
whose by George Lavender Marshall, Louis and her Non Lopez for wondering
This is just a long you're. Listening to like a short time here with my brother, Christian long, say, mother, simple,
Are they tell us part many before every sentence? We can say it just in wages, their names, the other Christian, though
really fun. It wasn t just an that's funny. People often say to me like a short where's, that title referred to the first one I just like it is sentiment. Also, please be honest. You liked upon, of course, we're at the age.
You more so than I because your three years older, where you are more reflective because you sense it the asking so quickly to the end- and it seems Shorty these days right at times just gotten out much more precious. This is a weekly show for weekly interview, show to actors, musicians, artists, thinkers, I'm curious how these people that I've known in other ways I want to Know-
They get the most out of life. I was saying the survivors Frontier issues like she's, like glaciers
It is also so long and then she said Ling Chu like and it's the exact amount of time we need real
use your mood you jerk regularly, because I would have made a great power.
There would have been very lenient, then we want to ask a bigger questions like what's your favorite emergency and the one that I like the foggy windowpane white. Someone can be like what are you doing this
I don't know foggy windowpane like that kind of that, just like the thumbs up the little takes. This may be the case that we, so I hope you join us like a short with just
long frontiers and make thirteen subscribe today on Apple podcast, Spotify, Pandora or wherever you listening right now, maybe naturally, if we
you're talking, I'm gonna start going up and so get ready for that America.
Transcript generated on 2020-01-21.