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Barbara Cotton Part 2: A Tangled Web


On April 11, 1981, 15-year-old Barbara Cotton disappeared from Williston, North Dakota. Barbara was a bright young woman with plans for her future. She was saving for her first apartment that she planned to rent when she turned 16 in the fall. Barb’s dreams came to a screeching halt on that chilly spring evening when she seemingly disappeared into the night. Piecing together even the most basic clues today is difficult. Who last saw Barb, and at what time? And how can we even confirm these things now? There are conflicting stories and big puzzle pieces missing. Now more than ever, people are invested in finding out what happened to Barbara Cotton. They might be getting closer to the truth. 

If you have any information regarding the disappearance of Barbara Cotton, please contact the Williston Police Department at 701-577-1212.

You can follow Barb’s story on social media at Find Barb Cotton. You can find more information at FindBarbCotton.com, and check out Dakota Spotlight wherever you get your podcasts.

If you have a missing loved one that you would like to have featured on the show, please fill out our case submission form.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey prime numbers- you can listen to the vanished ad free on amazon, music, download the app today, the. I don't think anybody even knows what to think anymore. It's like anything you you knew about this case- probably isn't necessarily as relevant as you thought, for instance, lake bob last being seen walking into the park to my knowledge that not the last time she was seen. You know, that's the most. Widely shared story about her disappearance, sanctuary different back in, and people don't understand that that distant day and age you know my mom and bob didn't alone along well. I know that, but teenagers
We don't get along with your parents or hope that real good most of the time, but my mom had different ways about it. What is actually truth about different stuff because she kept a lot of stuff secret. It just seemed like I guess, but it was. What was in the past us in the past? No need to talk about it. Now. I'd like to see her come back, I disliked her Put my arms around her and told her how much I loved her. And mr, I guess that's why I guess I'd rather not that than a body a body, but on the like side, like seats and calmly justice. If that's the truth, they actually killed her. In april of nineteen eighty one fifteen, barber cotton disappeared from Williston north Dakota, barber a bright young woman with plans for her future. She would say thing for her first apartment that she planned to rent when she turned sixteen in the fall, but barbs we came to a screeching halt on the cheap,
spring the evening when she vanished peace, together. Even the most basic clues today is difficult who last saw barb and at what time? Can we even confirm these things now there? lifting stories and big pieces of the puzzle. Missing but now more than ever before, people are invested in finding out what happened to Barbara cotton unrest. In from wondering this episode, three hundred and sixty two of the vanished part. Two barbara cotton story The. academy award nominee carry mole again, Emmy nominees a week as an story:
she said as new york times, reporters megan to eat and jody canter, who together, broken the most important stories in a generation a store. That shattered decades of silence around the subject of sexual assault in hollywood and ignited if in american culture that continues to this day, the film co stores, oscar nominee patricia clarkson emmy winner, Andre brower and tony winner. Jennifer, easily with a cat, the award nominee samantha Morton she said, is in theaters now yesterday we brought you part one of our coverage of Barbara cotton story. You learned about life, her relationships with friends and family and the known circumstances surrounding her disappearance, which can be murky and difficult to piece together was Our last seen with this mystery boyfriends, stacy walking into recreation park
or wish you last seen at a party that night could both things be true. Could she have been at that party with her boyfriend? and then they parted ways after in recreation park, to be the other way around. Could they have ways at recreation park and then barb showed up at a party later wrong. Unfortunately, we can't answer these questions. The thing were certain of: is that barbed disappeared and hasn't been found in over forty one years. We left off at the end of pipe. one discussing how they learned that barb may have been at a party on the night of her disappearance. This was something that had been erased from the narrative for many years, but Louise had reported to the police early on that stacy, less all barb when they parted at recreation park, and then Europe was seen later at a party around ten p m, while speaking with joy is the host of dakota spotlight. He told us my this part. The timeline is strange. What is very interesting is
the official sort of narrative of this story on line and everywhere has been. She was had. Down town with a friend and walked home and there's never been any mention of a party it's even more interesting. Is that so in my interview with Wilson vd. That's when we learned about this party, however, barbers siblings cantons anyway. I have no right election of ever being told that there are Was at a party- and I mean all Families are different and dynamics are different, Obviously it seems like Louise car and was either shielding her kids from information or something, but still I just wanna deal. Like they would know the narrative of barbarism ass movements and they had never heard of this party on the other we ve interviewed someone who remember seeing meeting Barbara
at a party. She had so I don't I don't know why Louise or person she's it would make that up. It is odd that no one else seem to know about bar being at a party. James to a woman who believes that bar may have been at her apartment on the night she disappeared. She frequently parties there around this time. She just can be certain that it was that very night. She also said that Louise called her four months looking to see if she knew anything in the nineteen five article in the bismarck tribune Louise's would as saying that she came home from work that night around eleven p m and talk to barb barbs That should be home soon, because she was actual to work the following morning at country kitchen, did bob call Louise from the party that night around eleven p m, stating that she would be home, but never meda. woman who hosted a party at her apartment and her sister, both remember are being at a party there with a boy they didn't
HU, we was they were shut, a photo of stacy word or the man Louise says bark was stating and they believe that it could have been him, but they can't be certain. one of the sisters remembers barb leaving the party with the boy and that he turn later without her she asked him where barb. When any said she got a ride, their sister has a memory of the boy coming back the next day and asking where bark was learning the party has possibly given us some further clues as to how the evening unfolded. If that was in fact the night. The barbed disappeared their due versions of stories about what occurred that evening. She was seen a cakes and cones. Then she parted ways with boyfriend, I recreation park, and now a party lisa explain that she's tried to piece together a timeline of that night. The best that she can, while oh keeping an open mind as story has continued to shift and evolve with time. Far probably was that a rapporteur
and she was probably at restaurant with stacey worker, and from there it gets kind of fuzzy, because we have an article saying that barbed maud saw her downtown, which barbed mom at the time was working a chinese restaurant downtown, so it's lake bargain stacy could have stopped in there and maybe they were going to take some common and She would not have gotten home until ten thirty eleven o clock. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, we would not have gotten home. The article said that louis spoke to her last around eleven p m And that she was coming home, she had to work in the morning. She both tables at a restaurant, either bb was at home at that time or maybe Louise called round or maybe bb called home from maybe a party the part about stacy and her parting ways of the planes man it's like they could have parted ways. Maybe
when they were downtown. Maybe bar went home to get ready for the party, or maybe it was after the party and maybe that's where they split and barbed was walking home. After a party we don't act, we know what time that was all of that stuff. That is. He may reported on it is they have dinner, and then he watched her walk home from recreation perk. Well, I haven't been able to put those connections together in that time line. So it's like. I try to keep my timeline a little luther. This is a case where we literally no nothing. We don't know anything. There are things that we can assume are plausible enough that they lately happened. But as far as I can, I say that this is a fact
This is a fact of this case. No, I can't say that about cape and cones. I can't say that about the party I you know. I can't say that about what time Stacy watched her walk into recreation park. I can't even say that he did. If I had to guess at the timeline, I would think that they were downtown. They probably were at a restaurant, maybe case and cones. Maybe they popped in and follow. He is maybe they actually had dinner with Louise, but that doesn't actually seem all that likely just because Louise would render working. I think that bb probably did go to a party as a saturday night. Otherwise why wouldn't she be at home at eleven? Why would We had to talk to her about her plans to come home, but beyond that, I'm not sure talking to the girls who had the apartment and number believing that bar was likely there on the night of the party he sisters partied with around that time or something, and I ended up reaching owed to the one-
sister and she meant the party and that she thought that bar made have been there. That night- and I was like- oh my god- they cannot be certain that barb with their that night, but they really do believe that she was and what we called them for six month after just asking them. If they remembered anything, I mean that told me that they're, probably right that are probably was there that night after the party, I can't be sure when or who or the context of the conversation, but they vaguely remember talking to police throughout the story. You frequently heard about this boyfriend. Stacy word her, but much in the way of details about him, stacy himself is a bit of a mystery. We know it stacy, because barbs ma mentioned him to the police when she reported barb missing- and we know stacy was a real person who existed. One odd aspect:
is that the only person who places stacy and williston is Louise cotton. Stacy from williston. He was a bit of a drifter, if he was living there or temporarily staying there, no one swear, not a single free or family member. Besides, we can ever will call barb mentioning that she was dating this man or saying that she had a boyfriend around that time. Barbs closest friend at the time diane records barbed days prior and then speaking to her on the phone in the lead up to her disappearance, and she said that bar didn't mention: a new boyfriend Diane believes that she would have been the first person that bb would have told his apostles met stacy sometime during those last few days and she didn't the chance to tell anyone else about him. Besides her mother, it is, strange bar friend diane said that she embark didn't see one another as much in that last week and she couldn't recall. Why could it have been that barbed
in fact meet a new boyfriend and was busy spending time with him were when to share with you what we know about Stacy he was twenty one year old man from California who died, three months after barb disappeared station took his own life inside a jail, and Malta montana James Walter Dakota spotlight has done a significant amount of research on stacy and was able to down some of his remaining family members in California, in order to help them when the gaps about whose stacy word or was. he's a riddle. Really I mean we ve learned that he grew up in. Why Rita California, and it was apparently very intelligent, ts couple sisters and I interviewed them in the podcast very intelligent also had assembly some mental issues. They say he was getting. Paranoid gets a frantic this.
Turn have relate stories to us about how Stacy almost killed his father or at least strangled him, what an electric court, I believe, the other sisters. sir, you shared that he had burned down their house one time I think you like in the class of eighteen. Seventy eight around there. In my riga and after graduating, while he was in the navy for a short time- and he was stars. I believe, that's where they discovered that he was gets chronic according to his sisters. And then he kind it became a drifter I travelled all over and and he's sometimes come back to. Why rica, I guess and No, his path out to north Dakota. In fact then pity did tell us when we dig it to speak with them that nobody, but Louise cotton barbers mother can place stacy worker with bar
in willis in williston, and in fact I don't believe we ve talked to anyone who saw him remember him being in williston at the only the only connection to this stacy worker Being an well ass, thin ass, Louise cotton farmers, mothers comment to pay, is that she saw Barbara with him earlier in the evening, but stacy after Barbara went missing. He gets arrested, in Glasgow Montana, is in jail for about a week or ten days. Something like that get out of there. He ends up in malta, montana, and to a movie with a friend and Stacy, gets arrested, their causing some trouble in the theater gets arrested for disorderly com and he later hangs himself in them, the jail that night through my enemies with his sisters.
who have never been spoken. Do by law enforcement, which makes me wonder if Stacy is just not considered a straw, suspect for some reason that we don't know MR took his phone call I phone call home and he apparently tell mom. I love her. Tell her I'm sorry for what I did. I'm damn sorry for what I did. She believe like the next, Or something was one day when he took his own life. So there's been a lot of circulation. Like was he saying, tell mom I'm sorry for what I did, meaning I'm going to kill myself and I'm telling mom, I'm sorry for killing myself or did he have something to do with maybe barbara's disappearance and that's what he's sorry for we don't know lord. It say I've always thought my brother, had something to do with barbarous disappearance. I've always thought that and he would just turn on a dime like she said it was like flipping a switch and he would go from being nice to just kind of crazy.
Guess and his actions, violent actions towards his family. I think It's probably one of the key stronger things we do so in the past that it gave light too. stacy order was again we figure out who he was ourselves well, based off first name but when Louise told the police about state see she mentioned that he used to be a dishwasher at cakes and counts in ears, barbs friends sandy has finally been interviewed by law enforcement. And she asked them if they ever tried to confirm that he work there with the owners of that business. Maybe they have provided some insight about who he was and that have given them someone other than the ways to place stacy and will assist in sandy, felt This would have been something that could have easily been done at the time, I'm in their due They interview and we're talking about. Stacy order whatever and ok
friends of ours and remember my dad was also police officer, So friends of ours owned a restaurant and they also get the jail. The prisoner food and brought it up their everyday threeg. I do there to die they whatever it was. I think back then was actually three times a day. Everyone I'm new who they were. It was one of the famous restaurants to eat, it was open. Late hours called takes a gulf supposedly the stacey warner work there as a dishwasher for awhile saw when I've been there. I ask if that's true or if
anybody ass, cakes are cones, the owners of it ron enjoys merrick already the staff there. Will we even work there part time for awhile? Did anybody ask about the stacey worker to them? They couldn't tell me- and I was like what do you mean you can't tell me, run- enjoys for up here three times a day or if she says to me. Well we're not going to get into that. We're not going to bad mouth any police officers in the path we're not going to criticize their investigation, and I remember just being put back because pick up asking a valid question as she is totally shut me down and I knew from that. Men are right on, even though I told her by that was a police officer. I understand I'm not out here. Most of those police officers were friends of mine even after by that got the out of the fourth. We can together We they have out together, we snowmobile together. I dont want to criticise any one of 'em. Really
want to know what they know and like to ask. A question then want to go did anybody do this. You know I've is coming from question point of view not like you guys did do a good job. There's just nothing documented any more like. What's in the file about you know them interview and stacy can't say that These were they? Did it didn't interview him cause, there's nothing ever did they find out? You did work at kicks accounts. I can't tell you that, because there is nothing in the file, did they go to school? Be can't tell you that there's nothing in the file. Lisa install a lot about this relationship between garb and Stacy. Could it have? all made up or is it true? She is theory on how this could have unfolded. The big thing with this is a dialogue with her barbs best friend at the time,
I mean you remember being that age. She wouldn't known about stacy before Louise would have known. Maybe barbed met stacy early that day I mean- and maybe you should his hand around to telling diane about him. I mean if it was a manipulation, a case of manipulation, and maybe bb was just that smitten with them I mean maybe stacey was like alex to me your mom. I could see that happening and that case, nobody would have known about to make that for with you know, maybe they met, and he had off right away and they were hang out and barb had them stop downtown and talked her mama they like that, it could be realistically, just as that of innocent does that Burps younger sister, Cathy, you told us that barbed didn't bring boyfriends around and she know anything about stacy or any boyfriend that barb had. But she, I remember barb having someone over that. She thought was a friend today
cathy wonders if that could have been stacy. There were going assumption that she had a boyfriend. I didn't know that she had had a boyfriend davy had been mentioned me a couple of different times throughout the years, but I don't remember here my course: you really didn't you know boyfriend's or more anything. I it was one day I come home from school and there was a guy laying on the couch asleep, and I asked bb who that was- and she said it was just a friend we needed a place to crash for a little while so her to buy you better get em out of here before mom gets home she's going to be very happy about this. I vaguely remember his face and the color of his hair. It was kind of like a lot sandy blonde dish working here some of these pictures kind, resembles this guy. That was on the couch, but I couldn't I couldn't say for sure I dont think it with too many months before bb disappeared.
Another strange thing is that barbs mother was in contact with stacy's mom after barb disappeared. We don't know, if we called stacy's mom cynthia first or if it was the other way around. We also no, how they would have found one another with stacy's family being in california and louis. in north Dakota, if bar Stacy had just met Louise or cynthia know enough to track down other family. Didn't he's just call information and asked for phone numbers for people with that last name. We dont the answers to most of these questions, but LISA been trying to make sense of what they do now talking to Stacy sister, then learning that he had paranoid schizophrenic and that he had a violent background, at least with his family. Obviously, Stacey sisters were under the understanding that bb and stacey were boyfriend and girlfriend, but Louise had been in contact with cynthia that Stacy's mom. I kind of wonder
How much of that did Louise insert into the storyline present here we have no way of knowing. If this is something that states he talked to Cynthia bottom I would imagine that if that were the case, yes he would of. But you know we can go back and verify that that that stacy. prevented it to his mother that way or that states ever talk to his mother about barbette all. Maybe this was all stuff that Cynthia from a real nobody in williston. Remember with him at least not for sure and really nobody and williston that has came forward anyways, even if they did interact with him to know him at all. There was a police report where Louise said that stacy's mom worn a verb to call her if she came home
there's a lot of unknown. There there's a lot of assumptions, and I try to be careful about the assumption that I make allows me to accept new information more readily, then getting planted on something that would make me, after which everything up so like a try to keep everything loose leaf, loosely there but changeable at the end of the day there there's there's no on in there that super solid, all of the other part fur movable weeks, of all scary Frustrating important we told you about a tip that Louise cotton gave to the police after barb disappeared. She saw them I may have been in a hotel with stacy worker in scooby Montana, There is no in the police file that this tipp was cleared, but no other Details were known about that. It was a very specific tipp that even include a room number to check at the hotel James, all. The city is still perplexed about this particular tip in what it
potentially mean such an interesting detail this case? So Barbara goes missing April, eleventh a saturday and her mother apparently Caesar downtown with stacy right and then she calls the police the next day and she said her daughters missing. She tells him that she saw them, saw her with stacy and then on Monday. I believe she caused the police again, like she's done, some detective work between sunday and monday, and she says she thinks her daughter might be in Scobie Montana, at the pioneer tell or in at a room to all five she's gonna room number, and I believe she also says she thinks someone a friend of barbarous, whom Wilson. Pda would not share the name with us. In my interview with them, louie said she thinks this
name person knows where a bargain but she won't tell her everything. Regarding Scobie because on monday, two days after the disappearance and tells them thinks it daughter, is in the pipeline you're. In scooby Montana, in room to all five. So it comes from farmers mother, you're gonna get the feeling she was doing some asking around right and where the sheep an information. Exactly we don't know. Do I think she was and scobie really hard to say it's really these mysteries in this case, that's just really happen: fascinating knitting and way I'm innocent, saying that that is the part of the world where Stacy worker, who louis she saw Barbara with does. Getting arrested not in scooby, but here honey I town may be sixty miles away in go and then later in Malta I mean that's he's out there, that's where he is
sandy. His memories of louise talking about the police tracking stacy down in Montana, in to see if barb was with him at his motel room, her memory sign up with the bits of information in the police file and might, fill in some gaps in the documentation. So at bargain the thing. The first thing I hear from Louise and my mama or my mom tells me about barb- is that she was with stacy and barbs. Ma am always ran andorra that night and they actually had a real, really good night, because earner mom we're having a little bit of problems and that this guy that farmers will stay the stacy warner. There goes wake up,
thought I Saturday night, that a monday use in montana and that the police thought she was with him, and I had heard from my mom from Louise that the police had been there twice and searched his apartment, urges motel room now that the police couldn't even verify, was true and she said the detective said well, we might have just went there and talked to him and there wouldn't have been a report then, so they can't even tell me if that's true, that they ever went there and searched it, but I feel a little bit vindicated that my memories are true, but really gives us no answers. The I want to tell you about a product that you have to try. I'm talking about built bars, new rematch,
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calm slash am I I. while James was speaking to Stacy sisters, they mentioned a friend to address, doth stacy's belongings with their family, They remembered a few details about him, including his nickname. Read it wasn't me, to go on, but james and LISA went to work when we interviewed stacy's sisters out in white, northern california. Now what we a lot of questions about what they remembered and they remembered someone named red coming to california after their brother took his own life coming with stacy's? But hangings right. So this person name read they couldn't remember last name or anything came out. couple other people bringing stacy's belonging due to their mothers in the effort to their parents,
of course, were wondering. So who is this red, because if they have this is belonging. They were obviously either travelling with them. Are you know? What's the connection where they with Stacy did we They part about crime. You know towards Barbara, whose red and We never really got anywhere, I'm not putting on facebook and facebook group. Does anyone not none? Someone named red, nickname, red and williston area back in that early eighties. Never really got anywhere and then I petition If the county up in Malta, where Stacy took his own I wanted to see the coroner's inquest They went just give it to me as an open record, but I had actually petition sue the county for it. Then we went to this law process. It took several weeks, but a judge finally did release the coroner's, inquest and inquest was basically sort of a the little trial a few months after stacy hung on self.
When cholera trial, though, but he ain't inquest, into their are trying to substantiate it. Did this guy kill himself or was it you want to make sure you there wasn't a crime. someone didn't hang him in a cellar, something right. So it's an interesting read because your basically reading, through this inquest than these different witnesses and they interview the police officer who arrested stacy for conduct that night and then suddenly right there. I see the name because ecstacy was not alone. Oh wasn't someone else with them, and it was the name, a red sullivan, which was probably exciting moment, because suddenly we felt we found red, release this last name. And then you know we try to find him and I have to give all credit to LISA Joe shilly for actually finding him in the end cause she did. That emerges
excellent researcher, obviously, and We found him and when we spoke to him we thought you know. What is he going to tell us? it turns out? He just run into stacy in Malta, stacy without hitchhiking. I think, and they ran to each other and read- was their camping and they spend a few days? You know three or four days together went to the movies. Stacy gets around and that was kind of the end of it. So that was the you know we were thinking, maybe red had been traveling with him for weeks and weeks, but unfortunately, now and again kudos to list the socially for actually finding her mind, I'm not even sure how she did in the end finding red ended up being a dead end. Didn't seem to know anything about barb, but he helped felons. gaps about stacy stacy Order remains a person of interest in barbs case since it asked away just months after barb disappeared. That has always me,
people suspicious and those suspicions remain today, There is certainly a lot that points towards him right, He was actually seen with her that made up the persons of interest that we have come across. That's the one person we know was with her and then it potentially suspicious. I depending I look I'm taking his own life and his call out his family thing is sorry for what he did. Louise is information is accurate, that they were marble. Scooby while he's in montana they're just a lot pointing out, but I can't that I believe any one person the cross is definitely responses now while Stacy were sounds like a solid suspect in barbs disappearance baby. Here had nothing to do with it. see, ended his life due to kill over as possible role in her disappearance, or maybe each and his life due to his own battles,
we may never know the answers Stacy, isn't the only person of interest in barbs disappearance? The second person of trust, is someone that has no known connection to barb. He likely would, in a stranger to her. He was working in williston around the time of her disappearance in it possible that they could have crossed paths perhaps the restaurant that barb worked at or elsewhere but there's no established connection between the two, no one, new barb had ever heard of this name until recently, James your viewed an investigator from the williston police department. It was around their tents interview. You can hear for yourself in episode six of his series on barb we requested an interview with the williston police department on multiple occasions, since we began working on covering barb in twenty twenty one, but they have done to do any further podcast interviews, but going of james is interview. We know that they said that
a team Adam, come out in twenty twenty two review and digitize barbs file. They were building timelines and establishing persons of interest. That's when the young burden interesting bit of information in may of night? He eighty one not quite a month after or had disappeared? The williston police department, received information from law enforcement in wyoming the day The double homicide of two young girls in rawlins wyoming for the murders. This man had also tried to pick up other young women, girls and a little boy. The plate on his vehicle came back. frank del apamia, who had been staying in williston law enforcement all this as a red flag. A man, would murder to young girls and had been attempting to lure other women and children was clean williston, the night that barb disappeared after the murders, he was initially on the run, but was later apprehended and justly
stacy word frank della pain yet took his own life once he was incarcerated this lead, seemed promising and also shocking barbs loved ones, as they learn more about the crimes that this man committed. An invasion he could have done. Two barb, when James heard about frank del apamia, he stood submitting record request to the various agencies involved in the wiring double murder case. And quite a bit. I mean we. We got record, requested records, Why arming the suffering? a penny I was born in mexico. I believe he was working and williston. He had like up about and a camper. He was driving around with working on the up like oil industry, You're staying at a camp were caraway, campground and williston this, You ve been a coincidence or perhaps not, but in the way following barbs disappearance, frank del apamia checked
self into a hospital. He gets checked into the hospital for a pressure in his head and a lot of anxiety and is under observation for two days, and this occurs. on may is released on mace, anyone. So this is about two weeks to three weeks after Barbara goes missing after he gets on Saturday may. Second, these days, wilson for three more days after the brief but I stay del apamia left williston, and this is things took a frightening turn on tuesday he drives down to Y all men and on Wednesday. I believe he starts almost randomly not completely random, trying to abduct people trying to coerce women, usually into his band thing, he's got a puppy that he was together.
and he tried several times I mean it goes to show any wyoming river tinware yeoman He goes into this drug store and tries to do same thing with a gown him. Diana had got a puppy, wanna come out and take a look at it. In rawlings, and this is just one of the most terrible heartbreaking parts of this thing. I've learned the stories that he ends up killing the two girls nine year old, pennies one, seven and twelve year old, renee davidson and wrong why omitting armed may seven, which is less than a month after barbara, went missing right, and this is terrible, terrible crime and heat sir bodies, the same night and the next day, just kind of on the side of the road I his remedies is very reckless is compelled, it seems, like he's just seems compelled to try to commit these crimes but end yet days later he's applying for a job down in colorado.
You know he gives his name like a reference up and well ass them, the guy, he's gonna hiram calls up the well, then turns out. She already wanted for this murder, because someone had seen his license plate there in my home, in the cops worry onto him and a bust. German jail and within local. We t hangs himself in jail, also very similar to what stacy Werner dead right and these are within three months of each other. Basically it another way of putting it is both stacy worker and frank. The panama Hung themselves rather promptly After getting arrested, I mean stacy the same night and other panier waited a few days. It just seemed like up a weird, I guess whence it instead believe in that kind of thing and stacy warders death forget. It says oil worker so is moving in potentially and the oil workers circles and williston, as was the panama waste
Actually off, there's never been able to connect them, but did they know each other? You know with the past but they committed a crime together with the suicide pack them getting kind of very very soon, you right, but you can't help but wonder about some of these things opinion was an unexpected lead. When LISA turn about him. She couldn't wait to start digging for information. They say the information on him when I team, Adam and stuff was there and they went back through barbs file- is what the police said. So I mean at some point in time somebody must have associated deal opinion with Barbara enough to you'll leave that little nugget of it. I guess I don't have experience to say, but to leave that low nugget of information in her file somewhere where they came across it must they were fanning out from that, but rawlins dead contact williston because, Frankly-
goal was registered to north dakota police gave them. You know what they had frank developing opinion, but now there was never any inquiry about barbed, my knowledge and you think like less a month later. Tat would be a thing, but we ve tried to ty arm like stacy in a frank deal pino together we found anything franked helping you a seismology worker and apparently according to what We said that Louise barbs mother reported the day after barb went missing. Was that stacy she said used to wash dishes at casing, cones, which was the restaurant there, but then July Wednesday hung himself in Malta Montana. They had an listed as a labour and not oilfields. We did try to make that point. Sure. Maybe they work together something, but we weren't successful so afraid,
looking out. We did get a hold of the files from colorado when he was arrested and then he was held in the hugo jail, which is where he killed himself awaiting action. two went wyoming all of his his van and his camper. It was also The cheyenne crime lab and we got the files from there and james was on requesting. No. If there was any physical evidence left, because you know they had all these hares and stuff back then photographs like photographs, then how some who maybe bar was in one of them, maybe Stacy worker was in one of them. They can't find them which, after forty years and nobody is beginning any information on frank, developing opinion that does surprise me. I don't feel like there was much. obligation there for them to hold onto that. I wish they had, but it's on stand istanbul, I suppose you know, but there they were very forthcoming with
everything on wyoming an colorado. There are very helpful in the lady who email the back about the cry lab stuff, like I'm in a check one more place she's like, but I haven't, came across it. Yet I don't think it's gonna be here, but I try frank de la Pena did have an arrest in williston, for I think our petty larceny, but I dont think you is in williston for too long, and I did and arrest record they don't have. The the file anymore, but he was arrested in denver fur first degree. sexual assault signal. Details. I just know that he was arrested and may nineteenth of nineteen eighty, and I do have that record an affair There is nothing more to it that they still have while developing it sounds like he could possibly be responsible for barbs disappearance. She disappear when he was likely in town he two young girls and also try to abduct others as well to jane.
There is a piece of barbs case that doesn't seem to fit della panniers m o when he killed these wanted and re davidson. He made no effort to really their bodies and it surprising they didn't find her Only then will we have discussed that you know that the way he attempted to abduct people with the puppy story, barbs siblings, talk a lot about how she was just so nice and she might be the kind of person that would get in someone's gotta look at a puppy. I know she. She had a lot of faith in people and believed in people, and it seems like searching and the persons like yeah I'll go in here, this puppy butter is frank. Della penny responsible for barbarous death. I can feel it, but her body would have been found just laying on the side of the road or something just like sea border. It appears that frank della kenya is another person of interest who can't be ruled out at this time,
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us or thirty minutes for a running recycling class. There's a work out that works for you with music that is truly iconic. So not miss out on politicians. Best offer of the season visit one politics not com, to learn more all access membership, separate offers starts novel were fourteen than any november. Twenty eightth cannot be combined, with other offers, see additional terms at one palatine, dot, com, The third person of interest that we're going to discuss is a bit closer to home, in fact he's one of barb's brothers, frank, cotton, Frank was much than barb. He was in the old, grouping of siblings and was thirty two years old. When barb disappeared, indeed is in our view, with the williston police. He was told there was considered a person of interest early on and still is today, Frank died.
I ninety nine from cancer, so he isn't here to shed any light on the case today. Over the years frank sometimes stayed at the apartment with Louise and the kids for periods of time, though no one can today. If he was staying there at the time barbed disappeared, if he wasn't living there at the time. He was there on a regular basis and often Louise out with things around the house, barbed sister they told us that she was always very wary of frank when she was young. I think because I got bad vibes from when I was younger, where he first time ever you got a bar with him to celebrate my birthday sure I went everything was fine and danny, except for one guy. Here on me. He acted more like my boy him and my brother, or in all fairness, stood god
And then, when the bars closed, you tricked me home and then he made advances on. I got my part called my boyfriend. While he was on you, wade, my brother did come back, but I never did open the door. Make a long story short, I told my mom about it and my mom I'll be a liar, come to find out years later that he molested by systems girlfriend of his that he would being were come to my apartment one day with her two girls, young girls, and she told me, but the girl had taught her aunt em like yeah. That's sounds about right. I believed her one hundred percent that he was working. The girl, my mom, thought I was a liar. She was a liar. The girls were lyon and frank did nothing wrong. I got her to bring her girls and stay with me for awhile and when I need for I guess for er, couple days and then frank came knocking on the door talkin.
In the coming back home hold me to stay the hell out of his business and I, like You cannot seriously seriously- and I take this girl back here- that situation she's, gonna, shrugged her shoulders and left with the girl and her one daughter had gotten a hold me. remember how many years back and tell me what happened with my brother. He would modesty and my mom defended him. My mom got me she me. I needed mind my own business and that it was we now and then he inappropriately, comments to my knees, airy grabbed her. While we were up fishing and it was finally brought to my attention I could play station. I feel that a report I had heard tell that
detective what had happened boy did I get in trouble for that. One too My mom were not kept me for quite some time because it was family matter- and I had no right to do that. I dont like seriously: it's not ok, you're still be sending that piece of work I feel in my mind that would perfectly fine. For him to be doing that firms, her sister Diane explained that she had come to suspect frank years ago and she wasn't aware that he was considered a person of interest at that time I was I was my brother are not always at first when she first disappeared. I thought probably she had got adopted because was oil born at the time in early eighties, and there are a lot of strange people out there, and I heard there was called in town and stuff, so I did know because
didn't take any money with her any cause or anything. I didn't think she'd and run away. I thought she had got attempted kidnapped or something and then, when my brother died, Frank died at the time that Frank was sick and died than I was like after he died that I found out that she had declared by bad, but it just the way that she acted after Frank died. She quit actively looking for her and up to that time should always been looking for her. She talked to the missing and exploited children place, and I noticed she had then contacted couple times. through them, I believe about bodies being found in different areas of the country.
And then they always turned out not to be barred. So up to tat time, I figured she'd been kidnapped or adapted, but after my brother died Maybe not maybe it was an accident, but I had had dealings with my brother and my daughter. He had made inappropriate moves on her and I was going to take him to court, but because of other things that were happening at the same time, we dropped the charges with proche as I never heard of anything until till I just went to and had inuit a real detective dairy of fear, though he just mainly wanted to know what my home life was. When I was growing up, and that was pretty much about it. Then he told me that my brother Frank had been one of the prime suspects, frank, is a controversial subject within the family. Some if he did something barb while others defend.
Character and remember him as a good guy who helped others. He did have a good side. There's people say, no. No, I couldn't have done anything could use good guy. He always help people out I really needed it. He taught my brother mechanics my your brother campton took him fishing then stopped. You now employed the dad role, both him and stuff, but you still have that other side. and like say my mom always seemed always defend the man. I was just the way you have brought up. The idea that Frank could be responsible for barbs disappearance brings into play Jim barbs own mother, Louise she may have known for Sister, Cathy, she can't but wonder about frank and if her mother could have known, I am finding it. So many in discrepancies in stories about my mom told different people
compared to what I know and I am more concrete now than I ever have been, my main thought was that my sister was kidnapped, objected background I know that she ran away and edges what I've got out recently, just as more and more to what I thought back then I took clear my mom one when she was dying a cancer in two, I was, and she would spirit at kitchen table and the head in her hands and say was gonna help burn in hell for what she did and I asked mom. What are you talking about. What are you gonna burn in Hell fork, really mad at me and slammed on this. told me didn't never mind. I was in my thirty for my mom and I didn't know what to think at the time, but The more I thought about it
and the more I looked back on a different that had happened after my sister disappeared. I hate to say this, but I I think my brother, frank and my brother frank, had something to do it. his disappearance, and I think my mom nobody not a known about it right away, which did later on My feeling on thinking about it. Afterwards after she had passed, I had time to reflect on things her reaction and everything, and then she talking about bob barton disappearance did she know more than she was saying these things that it had a service last year that know anything about. I believe, didn't know anything about my brother that also looked at home in time my mom knew she would have had a party the night. She never came home that my mom had went to the apartment in how low income housing working.
My sister, I did not know anything about any other up into last year, like what the story mama always told us that she didn t bargain at all that day, and then find out that she had lunch report or dinner by that date, the she stuck to that door, job a day. She died, but she did not see bob hearing this made us want to look at the relationship between barb and Louise a little closer throughout this story. You have heard that Nearly all of the information that is known came from Louise and there isn't much com acts to show the sources of that information. Beyond her stacy word or being barbs boyfriend no. One else seems to have known about that. The lead scooby Montana. Where did that come from something are sceptical of Louise and that's it fair wish grieving mother, or did she know more? Cathy was
the home at the time and witnessed the arguments between barb and their mom. She told us at things it uglier than most others realized. She would be had being a typical fifteen year old. hanging out with friends I didn't realize my party and that she was given back then she didn't want to live at home anymore. She was born to move in with her friend diane and my mom. What level my mom. Are you really mean you're? She would mean the all about, but she will work with barbed for some reason. At that time He was calling my sister a whore and verbal abuse, my sister, was definitely not, though she had boyfriend like most teenagers, do by. It wasn't like she was going out to party sleep around all the time. Bourbon I got a brandon, a lot of the anger, I mean my brother can't really gotten trouble, but not to the extent that his girls did, he he was allowed to do.
More things than the girls, because we, the boy and my I'm always favoured the boys in the family. If you ever been to tell her that she didn't agree with, but the boy in the family she would tell you you were lying here, mom got mad at her at extremely? She was very path of very crying quiet. Gentle. is she would do anything and everything she could to make things right. She was a people peter. She would not stand up. An incident that I happen to know before she for a disappeared. I did come in later something on that situation Mom had come into our danger because we share a bedroom and mama Joanna heard, calling her a war and a slut. And sheer downloads. On numerous occasions
I finally stood on my bed and got my more and I said, would you stop calling my sister is lacking? because she's not a mom turned, and she gave me this lock and I gave her the looked back in yeah. That was the first one we ve reached out like slot my mama drafted a shield Let me in shock she back out. We'll get me in shock. My mom actually left or will happen. Get me and she goes. I can't believe you did that. You should go apologized and chief city there going turning your call. You a lot in a work, and you want me to go. Apologized mom was standing up to her real I've always stood up for myself and everybody that I care about and by a very quiet in athens
I know Barbara gettin, tired of the verbal abuse and physical abuse from my mom. And come to find out? She had made should already had plans in the works too, to move out of the house Barbs friend sandy spent a lot of time at barbs home growing up. She has different take on Louise and she doesn't remember seeing Louise act in an abuse of manner. She wasn't always there, and perhaps things. She simply didn't see in the end, a friend and not blaine or you know not really. His daughter, whatever. Maybe she maybe active a little deeper around me, but I was there so much. I stayed overnight by was kind of scared of my because he was the big guy. He was a police officer to not when she goes missing, but shortly before that she was kind of scared of him. So she didn't like to count de maya
so we get her house all the time get Gabby. Will we still call each other like brother and sister, because I grew up in that house so much that it kind of surprises me Cathy says I dont know so much that what went on in with her mom but Louise always took great care of me. She was a single mom, worked really hard and did everything on a tight budget like the first time I ever or try rama noodles is with them guys. You know, because that's a staple of click on my more aid There is only one incident that I can remember where somebody got in one of the girls either bar or Cathy. I can't member which where her mom and I think the threat of it was worse than what actually happened. But Cathy said she remembers the switch, but she said one of the girls out they will find their own food
to get a vacant other than that one empty. I don't remember anything like that. Louise, as long as we behaved, which we always did, She led us pretty much just be at all. Where any commotions allows ouch remember them fighting other than that one time and kittens he and I were and barbara this really tight. Like brothers and sisters cappy. You now have the different take on this I don't know she remembers or my more harshly than I do. Have we also notice that after barb disappeared, there mom began to act on when others would come around people with a mobile in right after barbie disappear should be fine boy date walk through the doors in she would. It was like she put on tv, look like an earth to show for it and then they love the tears dried up there and she was back to normal quickening,
you could turn that on and turn it off very quickly. I don't to me. It looked like an app. Are you? when she was really crying about something and when she was up and again the bird and talking to people- I don't know it was. It was fake. Do thirteen years old. I found it very strange. The renewed efforts to find answers in this case, have Sk evaded alot of dark secrets from the past some of those Grits make people uncomfortable things. They would prefer stayed forgotten, but the bill pressure within the community has helped some new leads trickle in cash. Told us about one. Such lead there, the woman that I've known her, For years I come and said that she had seen barb after she was reported nothing at the hospital. which I did not know that before
she had went to the police station and reported it let's talk that she did not see bar, shouldn't make things up. She's like not seriously. I did see her and when she hold it to me. I one hundred percent believer she really did see barb and she'd sooner, but the hospital guarantees she never beard, farmers from the story and niger occur to the lowest and police department here a couple weeks ago so? She could tell lieutenant jerry who is in charge of barbed case now and it was the same thing she had said to me. It was very shocking. very, very shocking, my wife and unjust wondering what went wrong forty one years ago, Who didn't do their job? Who turned a blind eye. I talk to lieutenant Gary a few weeks.
I guess you'd been get mugged phone calls with new information watch, he's not a liberty to share with me at this time. In that understandable and the way he talked a kind of sound like you, they were getting close. It is that witness We did see Barbara hospital after she had disappeared, working, mean, and how would it shifts the entire time line of this case, while speaking with kathy He asked her what she thinks today about what happened to her sister so many years ago there are a lot of people avenues that have opened up. I still believe deep my brother had something to do with it. My mom knew about it, but there is always other guys that were around that possibly could have prevented with my sister's disappearance. Do not wait in state the water and that frank del appeal I think my mom had vented to my brother, frank,
my sister by all my sister weren't get along I personally think frank. I picked her up to hear her. To get her my mom more things. What one in the process now I dont have evidence that had happened. It's just my gut feeling. My mom was it telling me everything she the way she acted the way she talked. I always felt she was hiding something one come the bark Why would she call a young man mother who had just hurry himself? We're in california the so many questions have come up over the past year. More questions than answers like I more confused thou than I ever have been. she now what happened to bird scenarios keep going through my head? Ok, my mom had a temper
a big temper air. What have you bar that night and had picked her up and she lost her temper with barb accidently hurt her in some way and didn't know what to do about it. what I've seen over the years that disappearances like this- not all but a good majority family related. I hate you no point finger at my mom and my brother when I dont have concrete evidence, but everything that I've seen before going back around the world to that's what I feel it was an accident and the places that Her body possibly could then have been coming up, are dead end then I guess without finding her, it's gonna hurt you,
they were days, you know had something to do with it. If she would covering coverings. Opening up for frank, frank words, her baby, ok, frank was her favorite child out of all of us and Frank could do no wrong if she was covering up something for him. She would have taken it to her, even though he was already dead workers that we have everything that happened this year. I am growing more and more confident you're gonna find your body. We did have a celebration, life for her in on the anniversary of her disappearance in April I needed that no life, The data that end there out of the community, was just overwhelming soul, hurt touching the rest of the urban you moved out a well. I did I'm the only one left and I have asked the old like anxiety, attacks to stay.
in about moving away from here, deep down. I know she's gone, but there is always that small Pardon me the hopes she comes back. Why has the one that's always too, but I always have the sinhalese and hope that one day to come back deep down. I know we're gonna happen. No one ever wants to suspect that their own family member could do such a thing, but I and also suspects. Her brother frank, I thought of it strange, when her boyfriend hung himself in jail after she disappeared my kind about will, maybe he might have had something to do with it back then, and then, when Frank died them and us, after they had dealings with him about, I thought were made, he had picked her up together ride home and tried something went wrong
might have been an accident in here. All the places around there to hide bodies, because he was of a hunter and fishermen and my mom the way she stuck up further men press need. I bet she would have not went to the police about that and would have helped him not said anything to anybody and let them know what's in the past, as in the past, especially because crank helped her, I a lot after she had divorced. My dad went on on his own and all she he would come there and helper mechanics and stuff, and I mean he had a good side. I'm not saying that. There's lotta bad in the family I would like to know before I die. I wished for sure my mom. What alone I dont know she dared fisher. Not I dont know frank
and faster on his death bed is why she changed quit. Looking and stuff, I dont know and has been disappointed by what she has learned about, the initial investigation into her sisters, disappearance- and it impossible to go back and uncover everything that was missed at the time. Still. She has hope, but try remain realistic, with her expectations, not know about the last lady that have worked digit candy striper. she thought she had seen. Barb model we catch disappear again. Was always really disappointed with the police work done back then, and to expect the police no to actually discovered things. I think investigator and people are dead, her memory so bad. I really don't expect a whole hopeful, but I'm not optimistic.
You know you never know the miracles can happen. People been found forty years later, her phone, nobody until thirty years later, but, let's just about everybody that was involved is their dead. Pretty or to investigate something like that. I would think- and I guess I'm just a I've- got my own theories but does it mean the right there's something Hence there is out there now load confusion. To believe some days. other days a man that could have been passed ball, you know a different things have come up with a different people. Just sit back. Waitin opens morpheus come forward as the biggest for someone will come forward in contacted the I'm fine, more information, they told us that she remembers frank from when they were kids. He was, often there when sandy was at barbs, but she didn't have any negative experiences with frank
sandy has always believed that a stranger abducted barb in learning about what developing he added to those two little girls has sandy worry that bar they have suffered the same fate, my personal feeling of a stranger I think she was kidnapped, killed an we have such countryside here. Wet wakes rivers, wilderness. You know nobody lives you'd on these spots, where I feel like shit, but then probably will never be found after forty years, The share hasn't been found now at the would have sent that forty years it would take, maybe maybe a developing He's goin out somewhere were not that had been before, where they're moving ground. That's only way, I fear, being bound anymore. Unless somebody like we keep sand is somebody says something who knows something? Maybe then that way we can,
find her, and you know there is a lot of people that we tried to talk to just because, ah maybe bb hung out with and we've tried to get in touch with them. They want nothing. They won't even off the record in we have like a a box that you can put it any information You know it's totally anonymous. There's a lot of people that won't talk to you it's like. Why? Why would you tell us this breakdown albania to grow? that he murders his heinous really anus. And they were nine and twelve, unlike that has been my biggest fear about thinking about what has happened like what you know or her last moments like that. Just terrifies me scares me. It makes me really upset because I dont believe that there is anything in it, It was something terrible they happen to her, otherwise should be home by now, like your, she was drunk
to a car and taken away or whatever that whole fear the fear that would have been that she would have been gone through there was that frank del opinion that was in williston, and I dunno if he was a serial killer, but probably very well, could have been. I've always thought something terrible has happened to her. It's only gotten worse after you hear things about like frank del opinion, what he did to those girls. Could he have done something like that barbara Wanna horrifies me scares me that that some really awful happened during her last hours, lisa ten years to research barbs case today, she is determined to lie no stone unturned learn so much over the past few years, but there, still so much had is unclear about barbs case.
Leaving LISA unsure what to think about what happened to barb. Do you think stacy was involved in part this parents? He could even do you think, frank, verifiable for purpose parents he cut event. Do I think that a perfect stranger who was just passing through wilson for the first time could be involved in her disappearance? Definitely credible when you touched on it lately, Stacy like the most obvious suspect in this, don't always the boyfriend. It's a. I mean we're not even positive for your friend necessarily, but how much of that was talked up by Louise, it's always the boyfriend. It's always the spouse. Right, except this boyfriend didn't have a car even have a driver's license. How would he what would he do with a body to
where, forty years later, forty one years later now nobody has ever found it. The more people involved the more likely that it's all going to fall apart. That is possible, that it wasn't just a in fact if it was stacey e- I do have had help we've even looked at the possibility of bringing filipino. Maybe they met up somehow frank had a van. He had a camper, he had the camper at the time he had the man we thought of the possibility that maybe they were maybe they're ball, then on it. I don't really know I'm and theories, and there are many that I favour over the others. The possibilities don't team endless sort of aliens coming and her up, and no one ever here, from her again the fact that she has never been found after forty one years?
it unreal, and I could not pick one and say that this is what I believe most likely. I could never just pick one right now. one thing at least are told us that she's thankful for is the community that us form to support their efforts to find barb. Lisa at other families of the missing through this, and they each other by comparing notes and sharing resources? Lisa formed a close bond with one such family member. After hearing him in one of our episodes earlier this year, it will thank god, you put up first story about judy brown not that ago julian in that have said that judy is the girl that time forgot and your bar really is too and use a lot of girls. There's a lot of boys that time forgot and after we think that episode and julian mentioning leading to track down people and me hearing the avid people tracker,
that. I am, I reached out to him and offered to help him track on people and with actually became very good friend and to the point. Where not only do I haven't been hoping to win with duties case, but he's in helping me with barbs gay, bouncing ideas off me and it's nice to have somebody else. You know look at it from the outside. It's really a testament to people refer to the true crime community, and that's really what it is. I never intended to become a part of the true crime. Community genealogy was my thing. I was a. I became really good at finding people because of genealogy. I just never realized how well it would over in his investigation. I think there's a lot of people out there like Julian, who realise, after the fact now he's a part of this true
the and the term it takes. A village really comes to mind. It takes a village to solve a case, and I just think it's great everybody's so helpful, and it's just really made me, you know a lot of It- have been suffering in silent. Unfortunately, a lot of families, that's what they ve done for the past in bars, gave forty one years suffered and violent. This gives them a platform and give them access that community. So what happened? A barber cotton on April, eleventh nineteen, eighty one- this is the case. Where it feels like we know so much that so little all at the same time is a true that barb had a new boyfriend was he the last to see her walking into recreation park or wishing party later that night was still see there with her to its difficulties, a firm narrative with barbed story, because the foundation feels week. We only know
it's in pieces of information and it all seems to come from Louise if Louise could have been protecting her son. Frank is any of it information, reliable and accurate, their hand. Louise could have just been a grieving parent providing more information in context to the police, but it simply wasn't document. It did Bob meat stacy word or sometimes shortly before she disappeared, and she never got its. How her friends about him? Could he have harmed that night and took that secret with him to his grave. When took his own life. Just a few months later ordered bar book. That night in frank del opinion, was working nearby, could he have Lord her with a puppy like he had with others, or does it all go back to barbs own brother, good, given her right that night or gone out looking for her in something happened, or is there someone that remains a mystery to this very day? You could be responsible for what happened to barbara cotton for bob.
Loved ones they feel like they waited so long for answers com. It feels like their closer now than ever before. The answer is still feel out of reach, but they still have that someone out. There know something and will come forward finally view of em information regarding the disappearance of barber cotton. Please contact them. williston police department at seven zero, one, five, seven, seven one, two one two you can oh barb story on social media at fine barb cotton you'll be fine, we're information at find, barb, cotton, dot com and be sure to check out james a season on bob you can find. Dakota, spotlight, reverie, you get! Your pod casts a shadow of a great big There should be a very wonderful mom grandmother. first. When I call the guy had a problem urgently needed to mine to talk to,
You can't loved her animals, walker. I think the world missed out on her. I dont know what to say any more like the frustration as this overwhelming and I feel like I will find out. He had till I die fear I don't know that I want to put it all that lots of hope out there, but because I feel like area losing old- and I was in hopes rigour home After all, every happen any more. We just somehow luckily come across your bones. That's whatever hopes that I still keep it that way. Maybe some new developments goin out there they start to bear ground. Then they find bones and then because dna we find her. we can bring her home. I hope it's in my lifetime do, but, if not of serbia
there was barbauld and will be clapper celebrating. Well, I know So I believe that in I believe in the afterlife, then I believe our fear again, but I just hope that the anxious before I leave this earth- the the.
That brings us to the end of episode, three hundred and sixty two I'd like to thank everyone who spoke with us. If you of missing not one that you might have feature on the shop, there's a key submission form at the vanished, podcast dot com. If you like to join in on the discussion, there's a page discussion group on facebook, I'm on twitter at the vanished pod and also on instagram, if you like our show, please give us a five star rating in review, follow vanished on amazon, music or wherever you get your pod tasks or you can listen ad free by joining wondering plus on apple podcast or the wondering at please support us by supporting our sponsors by
importing them, you can help us offer the show for free. Another way you can support. The show is by filling out a survey at wondering, dot com, slash survey. You can also support the show by joining patriotic britain can get early and ad free episodes be sure to tune in next week, we'll be covering a case from arkansas thanks for listening the.
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Transcript generated on 2022-11-19.