Today, on the verge cast dancy for joins us to get into the m two macbook air review liz. The bottle comes on to do this week can elon and, of course, we'll get into all the goodies from the ios. Sixteen public beta, that's all coming up right now for this eighty issues are a headache whether you're running a plucky start up or a thriving business tat problems can derail productivity, frustrate your team and make a friday feel like a monday. Electric conflicts that electric offers unbeatable tech support that help their customers reduce aid, costs by up to fifty per cent. Their services are designed to scale with your business. So if you grow they'll grow with you, there chat, based support is lightning fast and staffed by more than one hundred and thirty experienced eighty specialists, and, if you're, an ity decision maker at a u s, company, with between ten and five hundred employees, listen up, electric will gift you a pair of beats solo, three headphones when you sign up for a qualified meeting with them,

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the hello. Welcome to the chest flagship podcast of the delaware court of chancery. That's good! Maybe they've needed one! It's about time! I volunteered. I said I went and said mister chancery, your honor What you need is a content strategy and I've got a ready made pon cast and the judges very willing anyway, if only I could but reversed the fiercest here, I'm your friend who will always accompany you to court, just to make sure you're feeling. Okay, just like I brought snacks yeah alex transit here I am friend of a friend of the content strategist for the delaware court of chancery. Apparently it's like you need the hookup. You can't just be cold emailing people, he said very pointedly to the people who call dna all day long about contents, road.

Are you sure making your blog later here? I am but you're not gonna dancing for this year. I am here. I am interested in making our blog bigger too. I have you do I wacky called emails for you, my friend all day, long there's a lot going on this week. We are only going to theirs Dance here, because we have our macbook air em to reviews- which I would not say are surprising, but they were shocking well They contained no surprises. I was shocked not like electrically but like emotionally. I'm glad that one of our product reviews just elicited that Motion in you didn't listen. How does address we gotta talk to anyone in twitter and the delaware quarter, chancery its. We don't have a choice. But we're going to do that in a in a fun and exciting interactive way. was just to not be angry for a long time.

So we we're going to be angry for a short time a bunch of times, rather than one long angry. If that makes sense. The micro anger mike anger, bursts, abetas came out and David, I and offices micro anger burst, for we have to tackle stage manager, says quite a bit going on today. This work has time to be mad. At the end of this episode now you're gonna, let it all out ok, this will be good. This is like the catharsis of of all this. like. Yes, it's managing your anger at stage Here's the you put your anger in a pile off to the side, other files to oscar emotional bundles. I need to shove it down until it comes out later. This has been my strategy, well wife, actually, David. We had a really big Wednesday episode. You wanna tell us what happened there. Some people have missed it. They can go. Listen to it! Yeah it was super fun, so we talked about the James webb space telescope, which is like objective the coolest thing that has happened in a very long time,

the first images from it came out this week. I understand almost none of it and they're still unbelievable. They are in fact my computer background me and everyone on planet earth we also talked about cable tv. We are. I spent some time with one of the guys who runs youtube tv and we talked about like what is coming for the future of live tv which turns out to be very complicated and then the really fun thing is. We create a diverse cast hotline which is, to be deeply hilarious and very and almost no one has intentionally told us, yet I assume that will change, but it's I'm very grateful. So far, you've got to stop trolling us we're we're not giving Alex. The number on purpose is not allowed to have a practising all my voices, but it's a thing we're I try to do like once a month on the show, just basically like take a bunch of people's questions either on a subject or about whatever is on people's minds. Also ceiling. A bunch of people's really good questions and ideas is due as whole episodes and segments of the rich has. So it's been superfund the numbers, eight six eggs, verve one

and I believe the hotline is still open, so call and ask all your questions and we're going to get them, you gotta say it again, though. Yet that's that's! How you do these? That's eight six, six verge one one! That's one of my faces the secure, you're gonna just do morning: radio announcer voices, as my colleague it, we don't call a radio show and do radio you do. That's the ones show which has gone great by the best thing with the James webb space telescope we were going to marry. Briggs is gonna, have a story about this on the site. Soon, if you look at this photos, they've got big lens flare. In them and that's the stars are closest to us, but that lends her look. There's are called the diffraction. Spikes that is like the signature look of the telescope because of how the mirror works, and so that whole story, unlike lens, I'm so glad it has a signature. Look like deserves to have like a vibe.

Did. The signature look is like Jj abrams. They just stuck a starburst filter on the front and it's like a nineteen eighty eight wedding, if it shot video, definitely transition with star wipes, like that's the James webb space telescope. It's great! It's amazing! It's a very cool there, one great tweet, which was like I feel bad for Hubble, which is now the before photo of everything. Whoops, sorry yeah. It did it's best. It had a good run but go listen to it. Cause the the telescope. amazing. Alright. Let's talk about this macbook Dan reviewed it Monica was out of commission. Makes a dance stepped in heroically to review the m to macbook air. Here's. What I When I say it was shocking to me so ones came out and we had the m one air in the old chassis in the m, one macbook pro behold, chassis and the. jordan. What we discovered interview, processors are great, the big until the arm this was a mass of success for apple, better life skyrocketed, and we

at the end of it, we were like the only difference between these computers really is one has a fan and a touch bar, but one has a fan in that If you have these really long, sustained workloads, it can keep the performance high because it can move air over the processor and to attempt it was like really sustained workloads. Yes, it took a lot to do I am one air to throttle the m to same situation only we ve got a new case for the air, which apple was very loud about David. I remember this in there. redesign, the processor and the computer at the same time, gallia these things were made for each other, so you got this new case, not the new ship. In an old cases and for an intel processor, but a new case indiana. the air, the empty, gets really hot and hits ceiling pretty fast. In the air,

in a way that it doesn't and the pro which has the old case with a fan in the touch bar. Yes, so part of this new case does not have a fan like you mentioned, it's also thinner. So it's a thinner, slimmer case than before it's sleeker. It looks like the macbook pro fourteen sixteen in terms of design language, it looks modern and new and part of the current line up of apple mac books, as you probably envisioned them, and not like the macbook pro m two, which looks like the line up from twenty. Sixteen it is as part of that it is thinner than the macaroni. It doesn't have a fan, so there are definite thermal constraints with this design. and we did a bunch of tests on it. I ran a bunch of benchmarks. I did a bunch of real world testing and the M2 is stir than the m one in almost every benchmark, a little bit faster on the border of like ten percent or so light, compare it to the m to match.

Pro. You can easily see it slowing down, especially with longer workloads and we're talking like ten minutes or longer benchmarks. So things like running a bench. Benchmark will show it doing long. Export on a video edit will show it because it takes quite a few minutes to do that. The some will slow down the processor. It will reduce the amount of power sending to the processor. There's a the utility within makko s called power metrics, where you can watch it and shows how much wattage is sent to the processor as it's doing something and you can see it starting out at like twenty five watts and bring it down to nine watts as its doing a test, and we did. The same is acting and to make the pro and it just kind of holds it at twenty five wants or twenty one wants, or whatever it is, whereas Air is ramping it down. It's slowing down the clock, speed and it's getting notice, we warm on the bottom, as is doing, is longer tests. So the difference is yes so then the m one, but it hits this thermal ceiling more aggressive

I guess, like ITALY m, one was really hard to get it to get hot like it just never got. When we did the m the macbook air and macbook pro reviews way back when it was like thirty minutes of sustained workouts before it started, hit that ceiling and throttle in the air here too the pro, which is why the like it's a air with a fan like it made a lot of, and to me in that context, now you're saying ten minutes, which just seems like a lot less yeah and it's hitting that thermal limit earlier, and it's hotter that also, even hitting that thermal limit and being hotter, it's still completed test faster than the imo yeah so like, even though its thermally limited and it has lower headroom than you'd, probably want out of the chip it still faster than the old ones so like it's not like there is a time you know when I think it was the macbook pro fifteen inch with the intel chips where it actually slower than the prior generation, because the new

ass. He was so thin. It didn't have enough cooling enough Even with the newer intel chips is doing things slower than the old computer. That's not happening here. It is faster than the m one. It's just not hugely faster than the one, and it is not the same. What we saw going from intel to the m one was a massive leap: super huge leap in performance, huge leap in battery life hugely been quality of life. In terms of like it's quieter, it's cooler, it starts up faster. You don't have to like shut it down to just close lid walkaway whatever. Ah those advancements happened and they all are included with the m. Two, of course, but going from the m one and the m two doesn't have that huge generational leap hour. multi generational leap, wherever you want to phrase it that we saw going from the until two p dot m on. So it's less of impressive of a junk. It's a little bit better. It's kind of like an order of what we had expected an arm processor generation improvement to do, but it's not like the holy crap

This is blowing us away, partly because the end one where is so good- and it was so good two years ago- and it's still so good- it's still like a tremendously capable computer This is like kind of I mean we were talking about. You know monica review that that m two macbook pro and we were all like- why does it exist? Well now we know why it exists. Yeah, I see I don't think it should, except that monica and I actually different on us and I think, she's going to put her feelings on the site real soon. I think that if you are hitting the limits of the m two chip. If the m two air is not powerful enough for you, the mt pro is not going to be enough powerful enough for you either like yes, it is a little bit more powerful, but if you are hitting the limits of this, you should really be looking at a fourteen inch or sixteen inch macbook pro with an end one pro or maybe it I'm one max, depending on your workload like that's, where you need to be going. The difference between these two in terms of performance is not that huge. Yes, the empty

It was faster m two macbook pro the yeah, I'm sorry, the names are not great, but the new ones are really not great. I actually had to update our review this morning because there was a lot of readers around What's the one two pro that she wasn't clear enough in the copy, so I had to go put macbook in a bunch of times to correct it. So thank you. Apple for that. They ve only got six words and there are just gonna, keep recycling them, and one of those words happens to my daughter's name, which I would love it if they would just fix that problem in the name, the next one ultra, it's just what I the next child hell. I love that ultra, but tell us very good, accurately, actually used why sure that whether thirteen inch macbook pro with the empty chip should exist apple, keeps saying these the best laptops in the world hilariously when, editing. The review asked him like: where does this claim come from? And the answer is no one like you. find a source for that claim and anoles you doesn't mean much, but that argument that apple made was like that

the best sign up in the world per their internal apple measures that they will not share, and a macbook pro is a second best selling locked up in the world, any. I didn't end up in a place where you've got a little bit of differentiation between the two now in terms of, if you have a real camera, and you want to shoot raw photos, the pro is a better choice for you yeah, but the fourteen inch pro is really where you should be looking and in one like who cares like, I guess I'd like my questions, does really that really matter. Yes, the battery life is like basically, the same. The battery life is better on the m two pro, but excuse me, the macbook pro with m two processor has better battery life than the macbook air with them to processor. However, macbook air with m two has more than sufficient battery life. For basically, like most any situation, I was getting eight to ten hours of real real battery life usage out of it

in my tests and for whatever reason, bat Never last long for me so like to get eight to ten hours is more than I get with other computers. If you need more than that, then yeah there's the macbook pro with em to there, but now it's like we're getting to a point of like diminishing returns on that like are you just not going to plug it in at night? Okay, If that's your situation, but like most people are able to plug in their laptop and I and then go a whole another workday without having to charge it again. I still think the m two macbook pro now has a very good reason to exist, because I am looking at this I'm looking at the m two air, I'm looking at the fourteen inch macbook pro with the m and is it a Nimrod pro yeah one pro yup? I am looking at these horrible names and that's my first problem, but no I'm looking at it and I'm like the m two airs really appealing. But what, if I am, what if I do want to like it mean for k export, you had almost a two:

minute difference. That's not nothing! Yeah! You can like buy the m two macbook pro save a few seconds on that four k export you do once a year and give up the better screen the better camera. Actually charging the lighter weight, the better design, you're, giving up a whole port because you don't have magsafe on the empty macbook pro like there's so much, is that you give up in terms of like everyday quality of life, things that are better on the air that it's not worth. Saving the thirty seconds on that export that you do once a year, that's two, that's according to adhere your own metrics. Here I will say this: I put this no into our review. If you're, just looking at the charts you're not getting the full story. Premier pro is like screwed operating As such, we ask around twenty two is giving a slower export times and premier pro fifteen on the same issue we reached out to adobe talking to them about it figuring it out what's going on there, but that is like an actual real thing. That's happening. I wouldn't base your purchase decision on from your pro export.

clear base. Your purchase decision on how adobe products perform has been true for decade: good advice to guess what he's don't do it? Don't I guess what I'm getting at is all that other stuff right. The quality life on the air is better than that. Hold over a macbook pro design, bread, there's a slightly bigger, nicer screen. You get the ports back its thinner any step up, fourteen inch pro, you get an even better screen, even better screen, more ports, more power interest. Weird to me, because I remember like David, I at the event being told, over and over again, like people. Jumping out of bushes behind steve jobs, theater being like we design the processor and the computer together? That was the overwhelming message like apple's integrated design philosophy, is like these two things were designed in common. What I'm kind of second is like the old air was designed around the third

I of an intel chip kinda, if you remember with old. Intel air was really funny because it had a fan way. Dowd, unlike the left side of the computer, those so far away from the processor, it basically did nothing right. So it was kind of funny how that design worked, and like you know- we ve got this new one, that's thinner and summer. I think what we are seeing is that for a macbook air computer, what they are prioritizing is thin design, weight and other quality of life eaters, and they are putting enough thermal headroom to give a certain level of performance out of them too, and if you need more performance and that you are and advocate macbook pro customer. I think that's what we're seeing here and I think, there's there's two pieces of that that Dan you and I were talking about in the in the course of doing this would be one. Is that almost everyone who buys If the computer is going to be coming from an intel computer and the like vibes upgrade of that is just going to be gigantic like yeah, it is insane. I went from an intel to an m one when I joined the verge and it's literally

like. I have still not gotten over that, like giddy feeling of how long my battery last- and he too has same how think so, it's like that experience in real life is going to be a massively for people and the challenge with these been marks is there, so not representative of most people's actual day to day lives and- and a thing I always enjoy about a dan review- is that you, you are like the the like power, casual user, where you're, like I'm, not doing weird stuff on my computer, but I do have one hundred and sixty one chrome tabs open, so Let's see what happens, and I feel like the I got from you- was that, like as a as a normal person who uses their computer pretty hard you never seeing the ceiling of this computer and I feel like that's the thing that apple is is going for, and I think, if you throw out the macbook pro with 'em too, and that stupid touch bar, which I think it eventually apple, is going to throw that out. You're going to have the

at one price and you're going to have the fourteen and sixteen inch pro at a very different price and those two things like it's just two different customers who will like self select the thing that they need and I feel like in that sense, the air being this kind of performance makes total sense too, and the price is a pretty big difference like I think you know, we talk a lot about like we'll save up your money, but like that's it's five hundred dollars. If you want the same storage capacity right at the launch of five hundred and twelve, if you, if you're like no, I just want a computer that goes two hundred and fifty six is more than enough for me. It's not don't do that you're being dumb, but if you are going to be dumb like that, that's a you know: it's an eight hundred, seven hundred dollar difference

depending on the on the device- and I do kind of see that that that calculus, I think, if I was like- broke ass needing a new computer and I'm a little wary of the brand new macbook air, because it's a coat totally new design and it might be a little scared of that, because historically apple is not always great at their first of a brand new redesign and I've got limited budget. I know I really need battery life. I know I'm going to need to sometimes use speed like that macbook pro thirteen inch almost makes sense. Would I buy it, Absolutely, not I'm just going to get the ipad waving into this jobs, we do that is talking like like slightly on your side about the pro, and then you said that and now now, I'm out on with Dan now. Well, so, actually, let's talk about the storage and the pricing for a minute cause. The the interplay here is fascinating. This pricing should be illegal by the way

all over the place. So, let's start with the storage, has a storage is like a complicated factor in the pricing yeah? Well, I think it's actually. Let's talk about the pricing. The pricing is more expensive than the older model, so it starts two hundred dollars more. For the same amount of ram and storage as the m one version you're already starting at a higher place in terms of cost, and then that base storage, which does the same problem with the macbook pro m two and over on youtube. Max tech has done a ton of testing on that model. The base storage, they've determined that the

Two hundred and fifty six bytes of storage in that model is noticeably slower than the other models and slower than the m one generation and apple confirmed that the storage configuration in the base, twelve hundred dollar macbook air with two hundred and fifty six gigs of storage is the same as the base macbook pro and too, which means that it only has one storage chip as opposed to two, and the knock on effect to that is that it is about half as fast, in speed, testing file, transfers, more heavy multitasking things like that. So there's a noticeable speed difference in the base model, vs one that has five hundred and twelve or more gigs of storage like you're, going to notice it coming from intel like you'll notice it and be like why my computer, so slow the videos they ve done that little speech. S show that this is like a grievously slow like you should not be skipping this apple. If you are you Like David described, how I use a computer, I will hit the system hard enough to make that storage be up will, notably

It is not necessarily you have to be editing, fork, Eric a video or running eight hundred bra files. You can do it with forty five chrome tabs and a zoom window and disliked no and multiple spaces in all the menu bar, apps and stuff, like that that I use like you, can saturate the ram causes system to hit swap and then had swap with that slower storage, it will slow down and you will notice that much slower it is. We should, this whole court from apple about this, because you have a whole quote from from apple nerve you so the gist of this quote, is basically the into services, but here's the whole quote: The performance increases the m to the new macbook air and the thirteen inch macbook pro are incredibly fast, even compared to mac laptops with a powerful m one chip, amazing sentence by the way sure these new systems use a new higher density, nand that delivers two hundred and fifty six gigs of storage using a single chip. That's the confirmation, while the benchmarks of the two, these six gig ssd, may show a difference compared to the previous generation.

The performance of these empty based systems for real world activities are even faster so that their copying to it, I would say, but there I think the approach is but over It's so much faster. You won't notice. I just think if you're going to ship it with eight gigs and remember that eight gigs of ram is unified memory right, that is shared between the cpu and the jeep. You like your your ability on the we've, had 'em ones. For a long time now people hit that eighty gram threshold and unified memory, a lot. So, if you're on a ship, eight gigs veneering may go to swap on the hard drive to swap memory in and out of the hard drive in the hard drive, a slower like the poor and two is just like starved for data.

Yeah, he can run real fast, but it's it's actually bottlenecked by the stores in the memory which again, I think, comes back to this pricing situation. For me right exactly so, then that means that in a to get a m, two macbook air that doesn't have this storage bottleneck. You need to step up to five hundred and twelve gigabytes, which is the fourteen. Ninety nine tier, that's the model that I reviewed with eight gigabytes of ram. Five hundred. twelve gigs of storage? I definitely hit swap on the eight gigs of ram. In my testing, like I saw it there, I saw it with the system. Monitoring apps like didn't, slow me down, because that storage was fast enough to keep up. But now this is a fifteen hundred dollar computer and then a lot of folks would say- and I can see this argument- that hey you should kneel. I would say this- you should probably get sixteen gigs of ram in there because he wanted his computer to last five years or more, you're going to need that now we're at sixteen or one thousand seven hundred dollars whatever the upgrade is for that.

a lot of money for what was initially a thousand dollar computer. You know macbook air. This is like the entry level I'm just saying, and if you are at seventeen thousand seven hundred dollars by a fourteen inch macbook pro for two thousand dollars. Ray yes, I can see that argument, which comes with eight sixteen gigs of ram and financial years force. Yes and incomes are the more powerful em one pro. However, it is noticeably heavier, almost a pound heavier, it is thicker and it is bigger so like if those metrics matter to you that, like I'm taking all over the place, all over the time or maybe I do need longer battery life, you will get longer battery life out of the empty air, then out of the end one macbook pro fourteen But here's what his arm saying like all that it like that right now we're just like doing we're just like narrating spreadsheet, just back this all the way up when m one. Air came out

the line we printed diet or bones review. This thing is a triumph and we were like, apart from this garbage webcam, it's a at a time like this is the only laptop most people should consider and am I only know it was like just get more ram cause you going never regret having more ram computer write home run like whatever price point right Now what I went into air and it's like coffee at africa. It gets you two thousand dollars and maybe should just the other one That's the shocking thing to me right, yes, When I say it's not surprising. Ok, the chip is better. The design is beautiful, the quality of life and proven ambrose, better all that stuff. The shocking thing to me is that, unlike, which one you by like I will. tell you. We never needed to have the conversation of. Should this be attend

like obviously like you know we're evaluating products and- and we want everything to be attend but like there was never that debate of like. Is this a perfect laptop, because it's not once you factor in the pricing and how expensive this is no like, there's no way, this is a ten out of ten. It's got all these great improvements like a better quality of life in many ways and it's an excellent laptop and I think everyone that buys it is going to be really happy with it but like where we- we're two years ago with the m one air debating whether we give this thing a nine or ten, because the webcam like that conversation just does not apply here. Because of all these. You know caveats that you've been mentioning. This is kind of apple being apple, to write like I think it was part of the shock of that in one macbook air was. It was so good that you didn't really have questions. There were no caveats, whereas typically

because, like look at this great thing, forty thousand caveats prices actually down four thousand dollars. If that's that's also, there was no alternative get anyone. Error was like the computer to buy. Now, it's like, oh, you can still by the one air so there's an actual legitimate alternative at a lower price point that performs nearly Well, do we know if the new m one air is doing single chip storage at two? Fifty six, it is not. It is not. That was the thing that I think is most egregious about this is they were doing to one twenty eight chips and with with the m two, they moved to one to fifty six chip likely because they're going to sell more five, twelve, which are two to fifty six chips. So this was very likely like. I think that was one of the videos. The max tech video noted is that this was very likely a supply chain thing of like this is just going to be cheaper for us. Why buy a bunch,

on twenty eight for these bought lake or they could just started a fight? Will let you do that this is a topical or computer. That's what you and I would do, but margins man, you gotta! You gotta, get the margin The to keep him right at forty. That's that's samples move. Forty four but Here'S- I guess what I'm saying if, if the m one air that still for sale does not have this storage compromise at it's base model, it's a better base model than the m two air base model yes, so the choice is really do I spy an m one air base model because they don't have a bunch of money or do I and a little bit more money to upgrade the storage, and I would tell you the ram, because you one has ever been sad about having too much ram. My advice would be if you are lucky a twelve hundred dollar macbook pro or macbook air into, and you are not able to spend more than two hundred dollars, just save the extra two hundred bucks and by the base, and one air which you can also now get like

refurbished are on sale. You will save more than two hundred dollars on it because they're frequently available for like eight hundred and fifty or nine hundred and then via webcam and by webcam yeah. So like like that's a move, that's why like in the review, I specifically said. I think this is an excellent computer. If you are willing to spend fifteen hundred dollars or more on it, if you are not buy- Amateur I'm just going to get an ipad work or whatever Alex is saying, I'm going to get that ipad pro it's going to be great, just the skin, then he. whatever, whatever king asking our sincerest, it's gonna, be great. You have cost me four thousand dollars you. No other computers exist outside of the sequence, they do so in the end they will come with five hundred and twelve gives a storage and their base and better webcams. Can we actually, about the webcam for a second, because I think we have established that we probably here on verge care more about webcam than most people and so we're just gonna lean into all I care about. I know well aware of this fact

in two thousand and fifteen imac, but I got an rx one hundred mounted above it. That's how I live yeah so How much better? Is this webcam? It's markedly better? It's! So it's ten dp vs, seven twenty, so it's high resolution to start with, but it's also got better exposure, better color, better detail, better contrast like it just overall, all the metrics you can think of in terms of like image. Quality are improved with this model. It's exact same camera, that's in the macbook pro fourteen and sixteen. So it's just move right downstream to the air which is great and like it is remedying the one big complaint with the hat with the m on air, in that it had a lousy webcam. This is a more than competitive, webcam I don't think you're going to find a much better webcam in other laptops than the model. In this I mean that's, encouraging cause, I I do think I I like to the point about the m. Whenever I came, I went into the review expecting to be, like, oh dear god, dance about to talk me into buying a computer. I absolutely do not need and then I look at the pictures.

The midnight color and I'm like. I need that and then I look at all the fingerprints on the m one or that color and I'm like. I don't need that anymore and then I look at the webcam. okay. Well, that would be nice, but then I come to It's like okay, if I'm just like a regular person who wants to buy a new laptop, I think that his m. One is going to keep being the thing I recommend to most people. I think that's going to continue to be apple's best selling laptop, and it's it's funny, because a friend of the site end of the verge cast Johanna that for years had a famous catch phrase when she was during a laptop windows, laptops that set for three hundred dollars more. You can just get a macbook air, and here it's like, for two hundred dollars just get an she but she's gonna to update the countries for this arrows of containers gets us pythian.

it's kind of amazing right that they fix the webcam and the the m two air in a thinner chassis than the stew display yeah. I think the lid is not much difference in thickness a lot of the thin the the thickness savings in the bottom half of it, but yet it is still a very thin lid. I'm fastened with us, please let us know viewing this pressing spreadsheet is confusing as we do, because it to me. I just look at him like I don't even know. Computer by anymore- and it's like oh, the answer- is a sixteen inch rack, the only size of computer that I've ever loved, I'm going to plug stay tuned for more coverage. got a base model incoming. Like I said, I reviewed the fourteen ninety nine here we do a twelve hundred dollar tier incoming we're going to test the heck out of it see exactly how slow is slow with this. So stay tuned. For that looked to the version. we re damn thing you so much for jump this come back was apollo, yeah talk about elon, we'll

the this. Is your world obscured by the scalar a world where hospitals treat patients and their data with exceptional care were smarter application insights need a smarter, real estate decisions where tens of millions of threats are blocked every day and where anyone what anywhere on any device with any application, Z, scaler experience your world secured visit these skeletal com for trash experience to start your cloud transformation. I'm sure it's a fiery and I'm alex heath, we're hosting land of the giants, a pod cast about the biggest tech companies of our time. This season promoter, formerly known as facebook, its accompanying a particularly controversial and former beaumont

sakharov org is placing a multi billion dollar back towards an imagined met, a verse future. Meanwhile, the rest of us are still grappling with what he's already built this season want to talk to the executive, steering matters biggest decisions and you'll hear from I have sharpest critics its former employees will explore. Why Zuckerberg is taking the company in a bold direction and how facebook's past will inform its future the land of the giants, the facebook meta destruction from recode the verge and the media podcast network. This season is sponsored by Cleve you subscribe for We, wherever you, listen and get our first episode on Wednesday July thirteenth but we're back lives the policy trailers, as a going guys. It's yours so cheaper, for what we are about to do list was telling me the other day that every time she

on vacation. You must have something insane which I feel like is something you really, told us before you went on vacation, listen man, we wouldn't have been ready every time. It's a surprise. Like I remember I was coming back from glacier national park like I had been out of cellphone range for several days. And I finally got service and immediately the thing that pops up on my phone is all of these alerts about elon musk smoking weed on the Joe rogan podcast. So that was that was then and then last week I was I was in northern california. There was such a simpler time. And the like. Now I had to like we gotta like do something. Like right anyway, like the machinery of authorities like worried, about weed it was like I would take it let's go back, but he can help origins. the scc is just run around with it's pants pulled down all the time like it's escalated, it has

ask elated. This is not a threat, but a promise. Twitter eddie you on musk that I will be in the court room if you go to trial and chancery cord, so think carefully about whether you want that you may recall did elon musk said he was going to buy twitter at five thousand four hundred and twenty share and then all this can remember because it's the weed number player it parachute. all that financing was heavily tied to tesla, whose stock at the time was riding high, elon sold a bunch of tesla stuff. He put together a syndicate with a bunch of people, including andreessen, horowitz, to come up with the rest of the financing it a bunch banks sign up. Then the stock market decided it didn't like anyone anymore and went down so then elon started tweeting about how twitter had too many bots. which was the reason he wanted to buy twitter to stop the boss, but too many bots needed he needed to verify. But sir actually were twittered said it was riding with a bunch of data back and forth back and forth.

on a couple weeks ago, files the as see a letter that he'd sent to twitter saying we're. I'm out you've lied to me too much. I've terms did the deal, which was very funny, because that, like the first thing you learn in contracts lies a first year law student is that you can't just do that. so he's. He declares bankruptcy right, the students were made. Many lawyers one of the most expensive letters. I've seen like four different law firms. Three lawyers from each law firm and like this deal is terminated which confusing twitter responds with this tweet from the chairman of the twitter board. Brett taylor just as we will prevail in the delaware court of chancery, which is just in the realm of threats one of the nerdiest threats that has ever been issued in the world. I'll see you in three check that ended up. That's like it's!

we have one of like throwing your glasses someone. It's now concentrated. Ok, so they say this and then this will heed twitter files, the lawsuit filed the complaint against elon in the chancery saying elon basically lied to us. He concocted the scheme and then he's a liar and a hypocrite and at the end of it the relief they ask for is for airlines, forced to buy twitter, which is amazingly circular. We're like this guy sucks, we hate him. He lied to us at all. A his solution. Is he should own us, which is bonkers? Well, it's not from them, though, right like like it's, not the people working there, it's the board being like yeah. You said you were going to give us all this money. Give it to us, buy us out effectively. We should say by the way before we get too deep into this, that the twitter filing is one of the great legal files cindy I memory yeah.

extremely readable, and it's also got like the poop emoji tweet, which you may remember from AG agro. All the ceo of twitter, saying you know, we've provided along with all of the stuff. That's you know about the bought stuff that he was asking about an elon like poo emoji, that's an illegal filing and if we're really lucky it's going to be in a legal textbook. One day So actually, Sarah Jong is writing a this right. Now many chores systems do not support unicode. Extended. They can render the poop emoji there's like a long body of law like emoji law that exists emoji experts- exert its. It should be on the site soon. She was very excited about oh my god! Oh my I'm so here for this. This is beautiful. That was like my very quick summary of everything in going on, but what is going on? Well, the end. is no one knows except elon. Musk is getting sued by a bunch of extremely scary lawyers, because the thing to keep in mind here

Is that when twitter lawyer it up, they didn't just hire any lawyers. They hired the firm that invented the poison pill, which you may remember they deployed when elon musk initially was approaching them and then one of the lawyers on their actual team spent twenty years in chancery court as one does so, I feel like maybe knows, what's going on, you know I. I definitely think that this is like a team of lawyers who understood that filing was going to be really widely read and like root for us, which like thank you. The thing that's interesting to me here is that this actually isn't that unusual, a matter for chancery court and I think, maybe the the first thing I should. I should pause, pause and say is that chancery court is different from other kinds of court. It's a little more flexible in terms of remedies that they can apply

and it's also a bench trial. So, what's going to happen, is that the judge is going to hear this this case and then make some calls and chants record has actually been very busy with a lot of merger and acquisition, stuff. Lately, because you may remember there was this global pandemic in two thousand and twenty, and there were a lot of people who then tried to get out of their their deals because of it. There is one that I think we all know that I'm a matt levine stan. He writes for Bloomberg, but he wrote about a cake decoration company that I think it was. I'm trying to remember which private equity firm, I think it was kolberg, had agreed to acquire and then the pandemic happened and they were like just kidding and then they were forced to acquire the cake decoration company, so that was pretty cool. That's kind of standard actually, and the one sort of big exception to this is a case about a medical company is best known for kidney dialysis. The united states freeze news and they were going.

acquire a company called acorn, and then they discovered that acorn had been like engaging in actual fraud and tried to terminate the deal and the court supported that, and so it kind of has to be a big deal lie that is material to the business that really really matters for elon musk. To have a case, and I just feel like everything that I have seen about. The bots has been so transport, like bad faith, buyer's remorse that I can't imagine the judge is going to have a lot of patience for this so one thing I just want to say really quickly materials like one of my favorite lawyer words. It just means important in life about halfway through law, school factors materially and it's like it just means important, unlike immaterial, everybody understands and materials, and it s very as we keep throwing this word around material adverse event, because that's the thing that would undo the deal and all it means is like important enough reality.

It's. It's important only more vague, which seems like kind of the point of what they're going for Take my lawyers invented this work. You go to court. I argued at year end to this is point like this. You and musk seems to have picked botz as the thing for whatever reason He says he is worried about the, but they re read the complaint. It is very readable. It is written like a cake. it is very much written for public consumption, so they can win in the public opinion there is like Market watch, or somebody had a piece today that was like twitter stock is going back up because- for some reason. You only believe twitter now and I was just incredible stock market analysis- I just wanted a saying when he's has feelings, that's why the stock is up because you're, It seems right like fine, that's how everything works, this entire section and the thing all the back and forth. It was done all these random characters from the guy

the business past show up like the old ceo of intel is here for some reason, and then he gets clipped like weird, but the heart of this is he says, I'm worried about the botz. Give me access to your data so twitter gives him some access to some fire hose data, which has all the tweets will not even that you missed ones too that's actually very important, which is twitter, says this data that you're asking war is not what you need to do. The evaluation that you claim you'd like to do, and he says I don't care, give it to me anyway, so they give it to him. But it's a firehose of tweets. When he comes back and says you didn't Give me what I needed. I can't run all the queries and twitter goes and looks and he's hit the rate limit of queries, which is like one hundred thousand careers day or so there's like some huge number. I don't remember exactly what it is say: what are you doing he's like? Don't worry about it? I need to keep doing it. So then, give him more access to clearing the firehose than any commercial customer that has access to the virus would need and he's clearing likes like what people are liking

twitter, it's unclear by the way he's doing this, like that part of it, it all comes to a head because twitters like look, he has told us what the choice Sarah he's either going to be on our board, which he rejected, he's going to buy twin which he said he was going to do or he's going to start a competitor and now we've given him, tons of access to a fire hose. We don't know what he's been doing. It's not the thing is David. That is not the thing you need to do to verify We're not going to give him that information. You do need to verify botz, which is like people's phone numbers, are identities all the other identity. Did it where, but he's been us for weeks, I rate we're not moroccan, let him leave and started and better. So the only option is for elon to be forced to buy twitter, which I cannot well. If that is a brilliant piece of legal strategy that even securing slowly as whole time or just like the most waiter chaos. I've ever heard my entire life So the argument is like he knows too much, which ordinarily like what they say in the mob movie before they kill someone

Instead, it's must he has no choice but to buy this pizza restaurant. That was like one part of the argument. Right, like the other part of it, was like he said he was going to do it. He also said he did. He waived the right to have any data at all. He waived due diligence yeah, so he doesn't get to come back and say, wait a minute. I feel bad, and that was stupid and like yeah, you should feel bad. That was stupid. Elon forty four billion dollar stupid real stupid yeah. So I think I think one of the things that we should keep in mind here is that as a practical matter, if your twitter,

You want more than the one billion dollar break up fee that your promise in the contract right because you could have had forty four billion dollars right, and so maybe you want to be acquired by elan musk, but even if you're, just looking for a higher pay out filing this law suit is the leverage you need to make that happen. Because then you can like sit down and make a deal with you. I must pay is more than that break up fee and you are away- or he acquires you for less money which, like I think, is not actually a win for twitter and, like I think the least winning thing for twitter is just getting the one billion dollars. As specified in the contract, like that's act wait for them. I think a loss. So I think twitter is heavily incentivized to play hard ball here and, like one of the things that I noticed treating this filing is that they alleged that musk has violated the terms of the contract himself. Multiple times And so whatever he has to say, doesn't count which, like I do, love a good neener nina and that's what that is,

so there is like a kind of a lot going on and I am just extremely curious because it seems like there's a lot of leverage that twitter has here like they've just been sitting here and like waiting for him to, like you know, screw up, which he's done repeatedly and just stepping on break after rake, so I'm interested to see how this gets used in court, because again I would prefer that they did. Subtle, so wait so liz, I'm inclined to agree with you, but I just want to push on a little bit. It feels like wants to walk away. He wrote his threatening letter saying I'm turning the deal. implication. Letters letter is that twitter breach the deal and they owe him a billion dollars. Right is it's the The way the contract is written. Whoever causes zeal to go astray of zero wanted to indulge so letters you pay me a billion dollars and I'm out now you pay me twitter's letter is not pay us a million dollars and walk away. It's no! You have to pay us forty four billion dollars.

And then also run twitter, the grievous did anyone can retrieve if someone came, can me- and I was like you're interpreted- I really have to think of as like? I don't do this I went to elon and said you can give us forty four billion dollars to not own twitter like at this point. He would just walk away from why I think that's kind of what was getting it right. Like they're saying can pay us some number between one and forty four billion dollars, and that will end this, but even begin that conversation you have to start with, or the delaware court of chancery will order you to pay us all the money and run twitter, and so the real answers at like. What's the number that ends the saga for both of them?

yeah, I'm really hoping for forty. Four billion dollars I actually dont care, whether twitter is actually bought by Moscow. He's just force to like discords, that twitter shareholders, because like having to pay that much money to not on twitter is personally very funny to me. I would be aiming to gatt again the whole thing here, a shareholder value right like that's. I have a whole lot of thoughts about like what fiduciary duty means in the context of eel musk, attempting to buy your company, which you can read on the verge dot com. But the thing that I'm thinking about here is like there are now going to try to get as much money for their shareholders as possible and that deal had an and nice premium for shareholders, especially relative to the current twitter price. So I think that you know if your twitter you're not probably going to let him walk away cheaply and, like I deal, he he's going to be paying at least

what the current share price has to shareholders who will continue to keep their shares. I just have a real question about evil on himself like we saw obviously this week that the the analysts are saying we actually think he's a big dumb dumb. So we are, we are now valuing twitter stock higher because he seems to be such a big dum dum. Is he really being a big dumb dumb? Or is this secretly like all some big plot? So this is a recurring? Question on the eu on must be, and there her I'm sorry and so kay, he says, he's genius. Is he not a genius? So you the thing about the eland musk master plan through like forty chess, whatever stuff is the reason I don't buy. It is because he so demonstrably has no king impulse control that leg. I just two. I can't imagine him ever executing a plan like. I cannot imagine him executing a plan. I mean it seems like he went out and executed a plan on

how to get sued in chancery court like that was like he just like somebody gave him like a list, and he was like I'm going to do every single thing on it, so I get sued in chancery court like does he just love the court? I just mean it's very front door. Chance record is deeply hilarious. We should all say more often. yes, but like every corporation is headquartered in delaware and every corporate dispute ends in the delaware court of chancery and like delaware is a state, has decided it's good at its corporations, which is a really weird identity to chase. After is like a poetic like a whittaker collection in like what we as a state, unlike wisconsin's

to be fair, though, like we're not talking about rhode island on this podcast big ups to delaware, I'm just saying sorry: he got to pick a bit and stick with it. Yeah like maryland, crab, cakes and football in delaware is like corporate legal disputes anyways. So like yeah, it's like he did all the things but like, ultimately, he did the things to some end right where he started buying the twitter stock without telling anyone for some reason. He agree to be on the board disease, and he said some transparently. He thinks great, he thinks it's the it can extend the light of consciousness. He thinks the world needs a neutral planet all these things he said actually doubt that he feels that way about twitter. Given his obvious love of twitter, like that makes sense to me, I think the market crashing is like at the thing that really changed everything and I think,

getting cash out of tesla. Does he sold a bunch of tesla stock, and now he just has the cash and he's not using his. Why twitter like? swimming around like scrooge mcduck. That's why I assume he's doing if, if I suddenly like sold a bunch of stock that I wasn't really allowed to sell, because it would signal my lack of confidence in a company that I'm most associated with and that I had eight and a half billion dollars in one was one Why, like maybe I shouldn't, spend this and twitter right? that seem like my more likely outcome. That's one of the conspiracy Is this floating around the internet is that this was a really alive rules for europe be able to sell an enormous amount of tesla stock without any of the

applications that would normally come from selling. That much tesla's key here is the thing about these elon musk conspiracy theories is that they continue to also paint him as like a genius but like a genius of like misbehavior who's like got dastardly, dastardly plans and whatever that he's executing over like some like timeline, and he like, he really knows. What's going on like he knew the market was gonna crash, so he pulled his money out of tesla yeah. I don't buy that again because, like this is a man with no impulse control and like over and over again, we have seen this. We have watched him, like unexpectedly, announced stuff at at press events where other people, like the knurling precedent event where he announced that, like they were in monkeys and like his head of research, was like I didn't know, we were announcing that today. That was the thing that happened. I was there. You know like this is this is a guy who I, I think, really shoots from the hip.

And if you're going to do any analysis of elon musk. You got to be pretty clear that got a super short attention span and that he Is not you know, necessarily and to stick to what he says and like. As for the the the competitor argument that he's going to build a twitter competitor, I think it is very funny and I'll tell you why thud for those of you who do not remember he very short, lived, elon musk satirical effort, thud it's because he pulled the plug on it right before it launched and had no business plan, and the goal was just to really bring joy to the internet like they hired some like former anew

I writer is after he didn't, buy the onion and so like. I imagine any competitor that he makes from twitter separately, from whatever those searches show is going to be just as half assed and justice like slapped together without really having a business plan or just you know, we already have true social yeah, which one because of the weird sbac merger, which will also probably happen in the delaware court of chancery, so excited for that one, the place to be so this, I have to go, but I have one more very like specific question that I have and the internet has, that I'm hoping that you can answer, and it comes back to the billion dollar breakup fee thing like at some point, could elon musk just like wake up decide to

not deal with this nonsense anymore. Writer check four billion dollars and walk away, and this is all over or have we like passed the point where that is a thing he's able to do. I think we ve passed the point where that's the thing that he's able to do as it. If I'm twitter, I'm I'm, definitely holding out for more than a billion dollars, and I've got my cool little lawsuit and my very expensive lawyer to get me that stuff and that's what I'm gonna do so twitter just tears up that check and says, see you in delaware, whips his glasses. I dunno. Why that's a visual habit, it's very compelling, and they also like I mean the problem for twitter now- is that the employees have no faith in that management or that board right. It seems like they have failed to manage the situation. At any rate,

away the whole time, they're, just not great at standing up for themselves. Only just ask all of you. This I've found myself using twitter, less and less since this began. I'm just like. I don't need to contribute to this platform like nothing good is happening here to anyone. I don't need to be a part of it and then, like so addicted to it. So I still use it. Did you find that too that your desire to like participate has gone down? Yes now it's increased! No! I hope, she's like I'm tweeting from my ipad all day, long tweeting from the ipad sinking. The ship is great, the band's playing Robert a great time of year. No, I mean like look. I am a trash raccoon right like I love

garbage. Of course, I'm on twitter know like like twitter and reddit man like they're, just the worst stuff. I do think that it's it's. It's certainly going to be a crisis point for twitter and I think that's part of the reason that they have a really good argument for getting much more money out of elon musk, because he has really screwed the pooch on this one and, like The board can make it's argument that yeah like we are representing shareholders. You know interests cause, that's our job and I'm sorry the employees don't like it but like representing the employees. It's not so much our job, but I think you know if suddenly twitter has this exciting influx of several billion dollars to spend on, for instance, looking new products or hiring new engineers, or you know, making the timeline ghosts. It weighs then yeah, then I think that's a huge win for twitter, despite the fact that you know. Obviously, a lot of people are very unhappy right now. Alright, well, there's always will be one wait and see what happens tomorrow and will have less back very soon.

If you in delaware, chancery later my friends, we love you liz. Will you later? We are back by guys you know I want to wish we all try to spend a little time thinking about a good prank that we could pull. I think it would be a good idea and in fact the few If you turn around right now, you'll see that I'm in the treaty- this is love, is a pot cast about people incredible things like a woman who moves across the country to work with her hero prince a man on his way to dinner, who finds a baby on a subway platform your town in northern italy, the tries to stay quiet at the same time

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favorite named company, possibly on planet earth. Right now cause it all it has done, is made it impossible to about, but after like months of hype and then eventually just like leaking everything, nothing launched the phone one. It's a it's a starts at three hundred and ninety nine euros. It's actually like a thoroughly mid range android phone, but it has some cool stuff, over three talked about on the show, like the has lights, on I can do some neat stuff when you charge and has some cool ringtones and a like eight bit wallpaper thing going on we're going to talk a bunch more about this next week johnson. Our team has won and has been playing with it and using it and she's going to have a lot of thoughts and John poorer on our team has also used it and so we're we're going to bring them together and talk about it. But I feel, like we've gone through this at crazy months, long hype cycle and I I

I feel nothing is the honest truth like I get to see all the end of all this, and I just don't care about this phone just a whole lotta. Nothing right, Allison did tell me that this was one of the hardest, like things for her to write, because just the urge to have a pun, every single sentence was just like two great, oh yeah, you. either can't use the word nothing ever and ever your story or you have to use it in every single cent does urges reasons. There's like a handful of phones we're not going to get sold in the united states like web traffic is a poor proxy for actual attention or importance, but will use it here like Was it? The show me m twelve, with the we have lost your camera and then the new iphone one likely. Both people just wanted to read about them for a minute and then we're but here's, the phone and everyone was like no, but the idea of this was actually much more interesting than the phone. It's all hundred percent- and I think that's like

nothing for you guys are going into a, but it's, I would just say, like the it's interesting. It's an interesting moment in tech when people are more excited about the idea of tech products than the products, and I like whatever but blue bubbles, and as I move on, which I think is part of why the nothing a work trip cause. There hope a this whole time has been the current state of and technology is boring, we need some new and different and exciting, and I think I would like quibble pretty hard with the premise, because, foldable phones are coming and they are glasses, are coming and there's like really interesting stuff, starting to happen in consumer tech processes are super interest. processors are super interesting, but then it's clear that, like that idea, resonates with a lot of people and I think, a lot People signed up for this ride of like show me something genuinely new and different that I will down within, and it's the same with the shelby phone. With like look at this bonkers camera, we did or, like I wrote, a short thing about

these, a rog gamer phones that people were super excited about. It's like people are desperate for something that isn't just an iphone, but like nothing ever quite delivers its did it damn crap as great as perfect we want more enough in come in and the ones issue next week. Let's quickly take the example of quickly die, what the applebee's cause they're out somewhere, it's a great supporter, weird down I'll just with some of the great stuff micro anger bursts. Three rico, regular reset your official at no macro anger, the locks rings on our system of really cool alison loves them. People alone I mean I m, excited about them they're, better at cutting out hair than portrait mode, emotions were very obvious reasons right. They have more time the pictures are already taken annually or one once you get with your life, but it's just like very funny, but they're cool, like widgets or apple

It's we're, gonna figure it out continuity, camera stuff in ventura on the mac, looks cool and use your iphone as a camera. It's buggy it's in beta, but that's cool it was, was actually marquez Brownlee did. I think it's like a youtube short that I thought was really useful where it's like, if you have a bunch of flat stuff on your desk, it actually works really well, and you get a good sense of like how it's trying to do it, because if you hold the thing up I give it any shape it starts to morris like you can just tell how much price saying that camera is trying to do to figure out what it's looking at on your desk. But as I see it seems to work pretty well, I'm kind of impressed, yeah I mean there's a good stuff in here, good ideas and then there's stage manager which David I'll just let you much a run mess stage manager. I have yet decided. If stage manager is a, the idea that no one ever should have come out of a meeting. Saying yes to or is a reasonable idea. That is just not at all thought

true, but basically I got to I got an eleven inch m one ipad, it's very good! those ipads, confirm ipads have a lot of things going for them installed. The beta you have to go to stage It's like buried in settings, it's very much like a mode that you turn on and like as soon as I turned it on, I stopped having any idea how to use my I've had. It was like none so, basically, the way that it works is like you have. You have piles, which we talked about, is literally what they call them. That is craig feathery geese word. They are piles on the line, side of your screen and then in the middle. You have the apps that using and the ideas that you can. stack or layer or put those apps side by side, whoever you want and then sort of flip between piles. I think that anti spaces is essentially what it is. You can just sort of sea more going on at the same time. Put it just does not work any act that wants to be full screen breaks it any app

It only goes to certain sizes breaks it you leave it and give it and how to get back it just socks just like you get to this point where it's like, I I would rather have only the thing where you can use one app at a time, because at least I understand where I am on my ipad and it just drove me absolutely insane over the course of testing the thing I remember when, when mac o s first rolled out mission control and everything there is, are feeling of like what is happening, and why, like is it worse? It sounds like it's worse than than mission control, It is because mission control is it's like it's a thing. You activate that. It sort of appears on top of what you're already doing, whereas stage manager tries to like fit in with everything else, you're doing, if that makes sense cilic you can use stage manager, but you can also have to apps side by side full screen and if you were to say David, if you have two apps side by side, scream. Is that is that part of stage manager? The honest answer is, I don't know

I spent days trying to figure this out and I I don't know what is in stage manager and what isn't, and so I wrote this in the in the piece I wrote: if apple had gotten rid of every window management system and just had stage manager. I would have been like I don't love this, but I sort of understand why it's here right like more access to more apps more quickly, fine, but to like jacket inside command tab and the menu the top that lets you move windows around and the thing where you can drag windows around and slide over. It's just there's like a hundred ways to do everything Only forty percent of the apps support each one and it just it's just unrelenting chaos all the time. So that's my question: is it just the apps aren't optimized, for men are in training, crazy or just the general chaos its both the app thing is a huge piece of it. The apple has it cod size classes. That are basically like what they've always said said basically here hearer the size that the sizes, your apps, can be on an ipad screen and ass, EL, persistently build an act. That is each of those eyes is so that when you,

is it inside over? You can, and some apps have done, that in some apps have not like gmail will not let you use it in half scream, for instance, which is always irritated me now, how they have to do many. Many many more things because like if I want to put my app on my monitor now thing you can do and ipad better. Sixteen, which is great by the way you just plug in a monitor and it just treat it like a monitor its traffic. But if do a full screen app on it's going to look like one thing. If I want to do a half screen up on there, it's going to look like another thing, which is actually different from what it would look like on the ipad, because the screen eyes are so different and then, if I the habit and stage manager that's another thing, and then it's kind of free form realizing on sit, so they are having to build these. Like fluid design systems. That is just it's possible and it'll get a lot better. If those happen put, that's like that's a lot of work for developers to do to get which is the more unpleasant we don't want to be a laptop, but we kind of want to be a laptop experience. This or chromo ass with android.

who cromer surrender, adapts it's the ideas you try to run an android ebonite crumb less are crumbling. That's like! Oh! No! yeah at least on ipad, all the apps still open like where they are and what they do doesn't make sense, but there they work on android, it's On cromwell s, it's like, oh you, an open, an android outlet come back and twenty minutes more will. Let you know what happened that instagram maybe opens in a corner. The attic we haven't decided if this is an android up or not so for come back. So is really interesting to me about this. Is you know this idea? There is some tweets us stage manner as a concept as a flutter, an apple for years, right leg, This is why this is one of the interface ideas that apples had forever and they just pulled it off the shelf and they shipped it this year. steve jobs in xerox, parc in the seventies just yelling about piles. Well, you get the feeling they show this to Steve jobs, and he was like no, no, no, no

This is the larger ipad strategy. Question right. My understanding from every conversation I've ever had is that people buy ipads and apple knows that they open one app at a time, and they just like do. I've had things in a bunch of like corporate executives, allow them they send emails on planes, and the pilots have a thing where they can strap and I've had many to their fight and right. I've had really kind of, perfect single application, computers and a huge variety of contacts. And then there's some amount of people us the listeners of his podcast for, like but you keep telling us it's a laptop make it to laptop things, and ever grapples like do you like this garbage, we won't think it through suppose we like now it's a laptop like that feels like the dynamic we're in working. Any about this feature that maybe no

Had users ever going to use it's hard for me to tell, I think you're not wrong, like. I think there is very clearly this subset of ipad power users who, like use I've had as their primary device, but use it for like real serious, like multi, app multi screen work and whether that's like eleven people Just all have big twitter followings or that's like a meaningful percentage of ipad users is very high. To know, I would bet it's eleven people with large terrifies, if I was being clearly has actually just me in a very large suit. three alex's and stacked on top of each other, but I think you're right inciting apple has like leans really hard into. How do we give users more power user stuff to do without making it more complicated and they're falling all over that line. Now

It's to the point where just is complicated, now they're just getting link Dahmer lake lake as sorry to all the engineers at apple. Listening to this that worked on stage manager, but it does just feel like they there there keep. They keep looking for a solution in want of a problem and like live, got solutions for all of this. You in fact I have very lovely solutions for all of these things and zero desire to have those two interact, and I don't necessarily know if I want MAC o s on an ipad like I like the ipad. The way it is and a lot of respect, but you know how to do windows, you could do those without this weird thing and it's just like it feels like they're constantly looking for these software reasons, to explain why you should a macbook air instead of an ipad? I think that's the frame we constantly like bring to our conversations with oaks and there like no don't understand everyone buys everything we make. So it doesn't matter like. If you have an ipad, it's very likely. You have a mac,

It's very likely have an iphone gap here and I It's very likely that you have airpods like apple's ability to convert people into their entire ecosystem is second to none they're very proud of it. At the end of the day, the ipad now has like fifteen different ways to manage windows and applications apple hasn't pick, which one is the way to. None of them seem great. And I think it's actually. The lack of commitment to any of these things is the way that keeps any of them from in great. in the mac. It's really simple right, so you've got windows, break fascinating about them, is like all the other stuff, a launch pad emission control like there. adding stage manager that too, but because, at the end of the day the mac is still a bunch. Overlapping windows. It doesn't feel as bonkers cuz Shifting these like modalities of how you work that's right and I think, like to me the way I've I've come to think about it as it like

Apple is a big believer in like giving people rails on on its ipad and iphone software like sort of helping you along in the process is a big part of what they want to do, and rather with the ipad, what they could done it just like taken the rails off right in that make you aren't you free to do. Whatever weird nonsense, you want to with your windows, but instead they're like here's, eight sets of rails personally I would you like your train to go on and on these rails, these rails these rails. These rules are these rules and we're not going to tell you what any of them go out like. I don't I don't know what it's like to do, and it's just. I agree if they would just pick one it would, by definition, be better than having all of these different ones to choose from, and I also care which, when they pick its wealth, is apples usually really get about. That apple, in fact, is loves to pay. one rails, and in this one, and since there are no no rails figured out, you got this. I love like the confidence in me as a consumer, but stop it

it's how I go apple, but again, I think most people are just opening one app at a time and these things go into the home screen and opening another app do accidentally opened this and be startled and upset actually open it. You can't write. It is pretty buried in settings it was. It was hard to find, which is, I think, a really excellent design decision. That apple me, but it's like about when, when apple added, that full screen mode button to the back, like that was a recognition, that, like all a lot of people just want to run one at a time, and they want to like do the weird keyboard suavely thing, we have actually figures out on the trackpad to move between spaces. and maybe that's how you use your computer, and I don't know anyone who actually uses their computer like that. But if you do more power to you and now they're introducing stage manager as yet another way to be like okay, you want to do a bunch of stuff, but you want it to be slightly more manageable and even in that case, I'm like okay, not what I want but I sort of get it, but you're right me lie it's like that. Exists as stuff. On top of this, like fundamentally customizable thing that does not exist on the ipad

in install window managers on your back to make a dude I really want, and that, like that, inherent acceptance of complexity allows you to do all the other things I going from simple and larry on things that make it more complex just like make it fall down I mean dieter. I was just talking about it that the ipad is fundamentally organized by chronology and the mac is fundamentally organized by the physical space. Am I here like stage managers is fighting with chronology like it's a spatial metaphor for window management that is fighting between this was the last app you used to too, there, there doesn't sell Billy. I that's why. The to monitor thing is delightful by the way, that's another one where, like developers, have a lot of work to do to figure out it's very funny like you, you and you put the monitor up and then like youtube trees. It like it's an airplay screen, which is fine. Other apps put there

there and put a full screen. Netflix was just full sideways, just like vertical, very netflix, so it's like in all of these cases. It could get a lot better if the developers play. But like it's been a while, since I can think of a time when developers had this much to do for like basic functionality on the ipad, it's gonna be really interesting or they'll Nothing like it's weird that apples in that strange microsoft zone, where they're building capabilities and developers don't wanna use cars, don't use it like we'll see we'll see if enough people demand that netflix supports multiple monitors on the ipad yeah. I don't think you can get away. I think apple can get away with that on the iphone in a way that it can't on the ipad. the iphone is so ubiquitous that any hoop apple asks developers to go through on the iphone. It seems like they mostly will historically the ipad and if you just build a full screen up and everything else is kind of Grady. I think can even get an instagram app like yeah. I think instagram with this one just loves not having enough add up like it is,

identity. Now for sure it's also like get out of jail free card like the day that there's like, Instagram accidentally leaks everyone's home phone number. In steals ten dollars, and you know, like put an ipad app there, I button leonardo in the series garage that says, launched the ipad in case of emergency like total reputation or as I hit the ipad app We are way over. We got to call some things one. It was accessibility week. This week we had a bunch of stories about accessibility in tech, some really really good ones, just a great package, something that we need to pay more attention to a We need to pay more attention to when we have some great how to use how how to do accessibility features on mac and windows, the over prevalence of animation, making things hard like just a great package and including some stuff on twitter bots that actually make the service more accessible, which is pretty good, so check that out.

And then we can have a virtuous without mentioning dishes, projects and five sis who had exists. We're gonna make this historic. I don't hold me to this. I think we're going to have mitchell on on next wednesday to talk about his adventures in justifies this and neil. I think you're probably have to be there for that. We know where else could possibly we work They are the only publication in america that is two different projection of isis phones phronsie I know this because, when I was like we should do it. The whole staff was like why roughly two other newsrooms. guessing that we're the only publication in america with two different project browser generalised suspense in two different cities, but Mitchell has one he's running around with that they game a five feedback, see get points, if you tell them the that work, which is actually a great idea and then he traded in the points of tea,

if you gotta read the story, you gotta look at the sanity. The nfc is a picture of a dog. I dunno what to say about it. It's like. cartoon dog wearing five g medallion fantastic I have no notes on the n f t like it's. It's truly, it's great to see you there. If you step up, approval level empty. The dog gets a t, shirt that his that's a nice and then the founder level. The dog is wearing I've g shades and over I haven't seen now undergoing before this happened. What its effect rica, it is unclear we could get out these entities are in order to get the earth. He here, download the entire blockchain, which is like it all very good. it's all very, very good. Seventy three gigs to download the entire a blog and verify it for you get out of this network energy provision. If I

This continues to be much too joy. It's all a ruse, it's just a thought. Its value a good additional work has finally realise that were the only of obligation with two funds on project of houses, slave sort. Speaking to us, which is, such ass mash reporting in resources stories as opposed to what was happening before, which was no one of that kind. even acknowledging that there are political means, if a wanderer the streets in america. Looking for you by the way that our still mostly doesn't exist. It's just a t and t it's very good. I I can only imagine that the various ceo, innovation t t mobile and verizon quaking at the sight of this dog if isis come home, and to read that please please, read it please, every time you see us cover jennifer isis click on it can all your friends to click on it, because

after some much time. People are going to make me stop covering prodigy But I'm telling you the idea that we we like created, worth network out of smoke and mirrors to justify the team of widespread, is one of the greatest heists in american history. It's incredible! It's very good and they're like the way you do it is we're giving out. Fts of cartoon dogs is even better. So that's I can't I can't get enough and we're going to have a decoder episode by the way on what iran, smart 5g cloud based networks actually mean I'm not going to be way too much, but the last time I had start ranting about it. We got to reach out for a very fancy person. He says I can explain the season richard that is our at times are thought to be doktor around and judge chancery be allowed episode. We are way over. You can tweet at us. Dan is at he c4 lizards, mss le pado ouses alex

Franz david of courses at pearson, I'm at reckless love hearing from you can call the number of David. What's the number eight six six urge one one. Now that wasn't radio voice enough. What's the number eight six? verge one one we got gotta get a sound like a total equipping like we got the whole thing just think about it, absolutely not Unfortunately, this resolution. What's a twitter atley image james, only and that we need to send word with a peep, you sound it uses exact. That's it that's a virtuous love you all rock and roll thanks for listening to this week, show we'd love to hear from you email at birth cast dot com and if you liked the show share with a friend brcko, the production of the bird and part of the VOX media podcast network, today's episode-

was produced by me liam genes and our senior audio director, andrew marina, our executive producer is eleanor Donovan that's it we'll see next week.