The Samsung Galaxy S10 continues to leak, indicating that it may have a headphone jack, a hole-punch display, and a cryptocurrency wallet.
But that’s not all. We also saw some new concepts for foldable phones, a rumor about Sonos headphones, and theories on Google’s secret Fuchsia operating system.
So this week on The Vergecast, Nilay Patel, Dieter Bohn, and Paul Miller run through all of that and then some, which you can listen to right now.
Thanks to Microsoft Azure for sponsoring this episode. Get started with a free account and 12 months of popular free services at Azure.com/trial today.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From a trip halfway around the world to spontaneous fun on Friday night,
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well, not the flagship podcast of the
dot com. There's only one of us right now because was reset button.
their seasons over there, you another one. That's we fund
for now. Just us solo, flagship of technology, news still, council, it deafness accounts. I'm your friend me like how are you populars here?
I'll, while due to us
Dieter figure that out that's what this hours gonna be anyway. This is a show, my know about
technology news, some jokes, just three:
having a good time. We had some phone socket others mess ten weeks, but we're hard.
come up with some so knows
rumours, some netflix stuff go on
I had a whole fortnight, copyright thing on type, but first better worlds
is the verdict science fiction project, its huge massive,
seven stories, five podcast five video.
It's gonna say right now we put one of the package in the virtues of this. We can push the interview upset. I really hope you liked it. I know something different to please check it out, go to the verge extra speed. If you wanna hear more short stories, we regret
better worlds. Look our each channel is amazing admission,
stories on a site that great John scholarly story this week called a model die. Please check it out. I implore you that's just
I plug I'm so sorry about this. The news is so dark, and this is such a positive, uplifting thing. It's about!
science and technology which will not get enough of lightly check about only like it polly reading it. I've read the first one with the spaceship, but I wanna get.
We do it. I'm excited about. I just I don't think we're. Ok, that's it! That's enough plugs! I'm gonna be honest. It's been quite weak, rather quiet, yeah, but like a lot of stuff were in their like c s happened
and now you know most that stuff isn't real, but some of it is potentially very exciting, and then everyone has taken a breath.
In our world congress is gonna, be starting up in a basically a month from today and so on.
that starting to wrap up the leaks, are starting to ramp up
in this zone
It's just a lil bit quite as far as least as far as like direct gadget news goes and yeah. So it's you know it's fine, there's, there's plenty of stuff happening for us talk about, but not so much that it feels overwhelming we can just sort of spread out and relax and talk
but notches for as long as we say in my favour, a little bit of news.
such a run down its Ivan news. It just my favorite thing that happened this week. The government
As you know, shut down, that's my favourable,
There's no, that's not my hair, but generally normal, but in our thousands are employees working the fcc shut down, but
our friends at motherboard, who are great
They were a story about location tracking with us, weak suckers
your location data, and I wrote this follow up piece on its company zoom ago, which
presentation, for why the rules should be even more relaxed and so they eat,
the FCC mother words, reporters email. The FC sees press line for comment, but
nobody works at the fcc
person. You just started emailing them back was achieved high.
he's the only person left in the building. It's like you, sheemale customer support. It apple you're, just like my iphone screen is broken. What do I do and tim cook replies, he's a hey: what's up debts and crowding cook here I laughed very much about him. I saw the tweet, from other words at energy, dieter yeah
There's the exciting notch developments or anti, not developments in the world today, the s ten in s, ten plus or leaking all over the place yeah.
when we talk about this whole points, we should talk about the double wide whole punch, displaying the best and plus has. But first can we just
Can we all to celebrate the fact that something is making flagship bones and twenty nineteen with headphone jack's people, like I literally I tweeted out just toward headphone drafts that link toward our story about the leaks and people like excited act? I'm gonna buy now
Then that's amazing. This might be the last one. There's a rumor
This? Is the last time samsung gonna leave headphone jacket found. Wasn't that the rumour last time,
yeah, but then I think samsung sees the market demand aware they notes
phone says, are slowing down the upgrade cycles phone down this road fabienne sell for three years. That's three more years of
of high end headphone jack. It makes me it makes me
now am I gonna get a samsung phone. Is the quest?
You really ata you, the vote.
With your wallet. I need to have an EU us phone and an android phone and the other thing in my life
it also really nice to have of vanilla, android phone diplomats
I am sir sampson phone is monitoring rocky road situation. Let me make the case for why you should, by one of these samson france, we don't it's good.
receive it and we will see them, but, like the ok make the case for way should be hype about the samson, France, a man.
Indeed, as wearing a red polo, any approaches you and of horizon store
I think the first headphone jack. That's it. I think that we get a look back at twenty eighteen
If you survey all of the notches on all of the funds in
Two years on, we are beyond the era of the notch, the notch era, and you have to pick what was that
you feel stupid, ass notch that was made out a phone. You can make the case that it was the pixel three exile over there
rain data is. I make the case. It is a fact, others
Thirdly, there are, some phones are like the double much unlike the double notches, like pretty out there anyway. This thing has an elegant, looking front of the fund
It has, you know a little bit of a vessel, the top and bottom because they didn't make you do not. Spending the
stress, however many tens of milk.
The dollars to the engineering to fold the screen underneath a already spent
that money to fold the screen on the left and the right, so it is relatively proportional. It has these little hole, punch notches, which again, I think that just a full cut out proper nash would be
just as fine, if you don't actually gain anything by having that extra screen, thereby aesthetically. I think it looks good. You no longer have to deal with the figures.
answer on the back that super hard to reach. Instead its three
there under the screen and if you you know, maybe they'll do the up to the irish.
sir, but I think those women those notches for that. So that's gone so
a very simple among process, and you get to try out.
one you I witches sampson's latest attempt to make a clean version of software. You get to it
That's me, and now I think I will soon see what one you eyes like a really I miss out on the beta but shifting everything down, and you know what
I'm not even mad about the year, the crypto currency. While I was prepared to go in a full rant about how dare they an external care? Fine, like it's a thing the people want or on the world and neil I for you in particular,
You are the man who we slack everyday for our internal chat and we have to use it all day,
Most of us do the same thing and customize. The way slack looks and feels to match our preferences. So you don't have garish ugly colors, but you
You have said that you like to leave slack at the default, because you want to experience what most people experience. I leave almost everything of a default. So if you leave everything at the default, anyone to experience a most people experience, you have too for your job by a samson phone. I understand what you're saying now to be fair europe defaults, ripe chain.
all the time. For example, I think you know how I feel that motions moving, which is that the most things change that one.
Do change the color tuning on funds. Has the super crazy right, but I'm talking about like your general mucky, muck settings and people are you can just change that, unlike most people, don't I think that's important how things behave
I leave it to develop. Did I hear you say, look I got. I always have to have an android one
Oh no, samson! Verona! We want time. Maybe this is the one minute. Maybe
maybe this one you I'm gonna convince me. I mean you, don't have a pixel three right. I do mean of the little guy. What I mean,
Just imagine a world where one you eyes so good that people start switching in droves there like syn.
or whatever, but then they try the one you. I know that this is what I
always wanted afford to be like it saves a cracked people have. Finally, like you
I want this dog issue. I want clytie to be home for no second C4 ages ago in I think worth a point
phone, you eyes, where the value of experimenting at actively cuts against servility to capture customers right zone dan, his wife's phone, it
broke and he gave her some android phone and it was like to differentiate like it right, but-
you give the found that has like just aggressively cloned the iphone you? I and people like make the transition
and I I've noticed this several times soon, as I have some friends you switch to andrea,
and an samsung aggressively cloning how the iphone looked and felt like captured customers for salmon
so I will set the more we
to see how this competition, we want to see all these crazy ideas all these new paradigms.
and then we ll phone right in real, my gimme, a windows winnowing system in silence,
and in real real people out there in the world are,
like I know how to use a phone. I preferred this other phone to be similar to that
and I think they did have switching causes real high. So everything is converging.
I would be very surprised,
apple swipe. Gesture ideas, don't just become the default everywhere in like the next year.
three years behind time, you miss a hundred percent of the shot. You don't take
you're, the one you I every time, you, u swipe, webpages, screams one at you. Instead of the bleak blip noise, it is its essence,
look, I'm surprisingly hype about whole bunch displays aims
but that we saw some more affordable, display concepts, asia,
he's got a really good. One. Jammies is really good. There is that the money
There's a motorola patent, drawing of the new razor that might have affordable, swayed at least this week, which hall man that pat drawing is like. It will never be that good, but anyway,
the arab handwriting, as is I don't I don't know if you can fire fighting aspirations, patent
it's very aspirational, but were
like entering an era of extreme hardware, innovation again, because
display technologies have taken. Another weep was usually when you see it said that this was an adventure.
Can we incur rummy can punch holes in them? I am sir,
super down for all of that, and I think we're I we with either. I think we're in a look back on a notch era is being like an aberration. Before we did more
interesting things with screens like the notch moment, is very much. This is the most you can do with this category of screen and I'm working like move on and see all the foley stuff all the stuff for the sensors are in.
Directly into the screen or under it I'm not jamie. I've become a sucker. You know I love extremely futuristic prototype demo.
things. But it looks at that, as this is the closest to see gee. I, where life, that I've seen on a phone and in forever
re literally let us like their folding. Just like a floating image. You're. The first officer
video. I thought it was a single market. If you have
seen two sides of it fold in think. Like tech, russia could nail that they set of the triptych
like it too, of the sides fold under and behind the thanks of that. But that's what gives you the phone shea percentage is falling in half which for some
and just adding an extra fold, makes it more impressive force cat. But you know,
they actually manage to make android
but even work with that little thing so good good on them. I'm actually a little bit surprised, like
I want to know more about what google is doing to support falling displays by default because they said they're to do it, but it's like what exactly does all that entail because I'd highly
out that the protests seen so far are using are all just some custom thing that these different companies,
made, even if your job, you don't give a shit right leg you fort android you're in china, your high school, you, Google, where have you heard of me mixed? That's our operating system? It has nothing to do with you. My guess is that folding phones are just as well supported by android as tablets.
That's it it's conceptually the same you have have they can adapt to different screen sizes and ratios yeah, but that
but in the end, so martin people hood build apps with using the modern tool kit of that the google provides and don't do anything customer interesting with their app can support tablet.
And probably support folded votes, as one might say, my guess: licence
the folding screen honesty,
an android that platform as its dynamics. My sense of what it's good for is consumed,
content right. I don't. I don't know that I've, I've, never
sat down in a coffee shop with my phone like looked a twitter and unlike man, I wish this was bigger. Rarely that's not it, but I think I'm an unfolding in like look at the bigger picture or watch a video full screen if that stuff, and I dont that doesn't really does eyes the video players right, unlike content views scale, I dont know that this is the thing that makes people want to use. Microsoft word an interest rate rode up. Like mostly for view I mean I can imagine specially with this, show me phone
like your scrolling through you to be find a good, a good video, and so you unfolded watch it and full ethnic automatically goes to full screen. You watch the whole video and that when you're done watching the video, if tut tut decides back in- and I start scorned to you to look a freer, you next fix
oh yeah yeah, I'm pretty sables experience I
just history, suggests that the word seamless should not be applied to this experience yet yeah,
I'm pretty sure it'll, be italy weird, but
best. I and I, in a way that just like new processor improvements will fix it
in two generations like it'll, be like that
how much he and work is involved when you ve got a phone in port
and you know you wanna go full screen as the attack of the full screen and then it like it
burns, and now that the operating system starts turning,
ninety degrees at a time trying to find which weighs down with gravity is a shake the phone, so it gets to the landscape. Just right,
because you're an android and it's not as perfect as it is on I'll ass. I will say: iowa Israel, Jackie with rotation lily.
maybe gravities, MR assets, which
shut down, no no one's in the gravitational signals. They need from the government network of gravity that that works
Can I just say that the rumour algae by the way is not upholding screen its adele just having a second screen that you can forget yet these
carrying around and flung it in. I love this idea at the sight.
You have another like things in your baggage that click it in her like you can maybe on click it and like sticking to a pocket buying the phone yeah. That's great, you like get all the benefits and then, if you
I want the skinny little phone, let the weird bandanna near throw you leave the second screen behind what want I dont, like a kind of get articulated the benefits this is
we for like real estate people.
We're like last respects the unplugging, the other screening ex Roland found you like shoot. A picture
glitter. I believe and try to find out what you will use this for, and it's definitely for that. The kind of people who give powerpoint presentation than starbucks what visa, like all this. In theory,
Stop it! You do on an ipad. You could do on. You know. You're found a logical that still you know what,
I had many and like a dual screener
the screen device like is essentially an ipad many, but it full tat. Yeah, that's cool!
I am into legacy, and this is what its people missing show. No, like I'm, usually them.
What what is it good for in this is the one place from like. I don't care. I just
I just want to holding firm like it's an iphone jack with
can't. Have it all
and then their honour view. Twenty is out of forty eight mixed forty eight megapixel
which makes me happy, I mean well, and that cameras licked sandpiper will really be
like the cameras, actually not bullshit like it's actually third there
they managed to have real benefits and there have been very, very, very few smartphones with super high megapixel counts. That haven't actually has been
gee, actively worse than like a standard, eight or told megapixel camera, and this one you know,
manages to be as good as some cases better and that's rare so that that's. Why that's? Why I'm excited about that? Yet
as the worst in this period, where a bunch of threads that have been brewing for some time are starting a land and shipping devices like
the there's a veto, apex it'll, be an end to be see where the entire displays a fingerprint sensor come on, like that, seem for cool, it's a prototype, and who knows- and I mean we ve- seen enough vivo weird nests to know that they just like having ideas. Distrust, look at them like the thing, but the camera,
pops. Up like that's fine, but I I just where am I think this end of you see, which is coming observe mid february, is great. Full of
extremely weird found designs. That sort of make last year seem like an aberration. Yeah. Can I throw
Both are our topic last yeah! That's why we're here for
You have even keep up with you shop. Google's skunk works as projects more from like the programming language sidewise with well. Ok, so to think
happened. Since we last checked in one,
U I that everybody has seen for future has basically been yanked and put into a private repositories. It was called armadillo so,
you no longer can like track and watch how their thinking about what the user interface looks like publicly anymore, earliest, not easily
so that's one, and then this week, Google hired
This apple veteran named bill stevenson, who were
on a lot of macro s releases, and
What is interesting? There is two things well I'll say
there are three things that are investing there, but I'm all you to say what is on the verge cask them save in the other two, but where
we austrians are posted about it?
he said, I m excited to share that this february I'll be joining google. Here's the important part to help bring a new operating so
some called future to market
markets to market like
the first time, to my knowledge, a guy like Google. Finally, just up and admitted yes we're doing with this is this: is it
hang in lots of other little development. So we ve seen some pretty clear indication
but they have been developing versions of
You show that can run on things like smart clocks and smart displays, so even
that lenovo, smart clock. We think that that could run future you and that's gap. I've got a couple other things like
gestures and thoughts and ideas, but there are like to see
gee for media, like put my name
not even on the verge castro I'll say anything. So I think that future,
gotta be an exciting to watch. Torrenting ethic anything's can actually get released this year, but I do think that
get a start to see more stuff become like secretive. So if you haven't like poked around, if you are able to look at you, I get up and understand. Even a little bit occur.
now is the time to do it because I think they're gonna start pulling more stuff back as they get ready to like turn it into something real
What is it going to turn into their see? That's as well
I think I know, but I dont want to say. I think it's Google's everything operating system if it can run andred applications, it began its bait and
can run on really lightweight devices to kids like its google's, like darwin, at the colonel ray it's instead of having ike its own special variant of unit.
as its main colonel for all its operating systems, Google will have a future.
What it went over the actual colonel a future is and then it can
toy around with making like more user facing operating system stuff like they could ship
an android phone that would have future stuff as the innerds of it, but it still works and operates. Just like your courage,
android phone or they can go crazy, andrew to replace all the. U I with flutter and stuff like that that they have a lot of flexibility, but I do think they want to get away from linux, or at least have my
rid off think, was that they wanted to have a very viable replacement for linux. If something goes bad with lennox right now
seems like their investing enough in it that they are fairly confident that they can play
If you listen to this near in your car must until you dieter, is completely stone faced right now,
nothing. Nothing from this may pose a saying. Every word you can think of leaders like
the ideal eurozone
I to say I remember once when I was trying to understand darker and I couldn't figured out and then
Paul, finally, is like explained it to
and then I went. Oh, I make sense.
Really obvious and that's like really smart and that's the way that you know software. The cloud should work and I feel like
there's a not precisely analogous move that they're doing with like a consumer,
like a device operating system to doktor, but
it's like sort of analysis and the like,
oh yeah everything everything should be. Should the that internal parts of software and computer should communicate
we probably pulses. It's like the everything operating system. I'd like, I feel like their building,
colonel, nor building a system that, instead of like having
total machines, are seven, have no like report stuff that its flexible enough, that it can run like absolutely flutter absolute
they were the android us decay and there's even like code. It's like swift, like, let's see if we can figure out how to get swift to run on this thing right. I've got bigger swifter there. They ve got like a lot of rust code. One way to think of it like
that the invention is not the not like they came up with this concept, but the what makes future different than a typical Aubrey system is that it has what's called a micro, colonel and so the idea,
that, all the most of the drivers, most of the functionality of operating system is not in the colonel, whereas linux is
Moreover, all its colleagues model with its it's big and when you write a driver
were harder right. You want your hard work.
able to work with linux, you happen to write code. The interfaces directly with the colonel which see basely have to contribute to linux, to make your hardware work with linux, whereas with a micro, colonel, the colonel is much more self contained, and so therefore much more portable and stuff like that, like a lot of the drivers, can be much more stand by
much more like basically like apps and therefore a lot more portable, and so you end up with a lot more modular of an operating system and a lot more portable of an operating system that people were thing came out.
even back in the nineties, the thought was that maybe it's not as fast but but they're, pretty sure that they can make a fast. It's funding that we will come this far with google and its allies there.
Gonna make their next o s right like enter. It, isn't that old, but the
they're gonna, completely ryaku attacks, a new kind of a from the ground up is actually kind of remarked, wanted, rather hiring people to bring it up.
It is also remarkable because they just spent quite awhile mucking around with, like some of the corporatism
what cromwell s is right. Like chrome s is now basically like half chrome, half android bets right and, like there's a there's, some there there's some stuff that, like their debating whether now
had been virtual machines, or rather a lot but like there's like the wake there there messing with
chrome and, at the same time, their developing. This thing on the side and sudan. The big question is like we used to be like weight
you gotta, do to get a bet on all an android or on. Why do you have both at it so confusing,
in two years we're gonna be having the same argument about like cromwell s, lush era,
hybrid and future?
people are like? No, no, you don't understand she uses for this. This and this and chrome os is for that that in that and then android is, do you know that that other thing in so I don't think they're going to kill off any of the stuff right away, and it's talking two thousand one hundred and forty one
which means we're going to have a whole lot alike. Confusion about what is for one thing
in the same way that you know like. Why is there both cast platform?
for smart speakers and andrea platform: bright, google, just as a company is not worried about
having like a single unified. You know thing
runs everything in the way that apples basically has everything, as I, alas, and Google, suit sort of doesn't care and
some ways, that's a little bit more honest has to say that everything is
The running I o s is like rough riders. Like is the touch bar on you know my macbook pro.
it's like some variant of watching us apparently sort. I kind of like it almost like becomes like meaningless terms. When you talk about like what
operating systems are run these little gadgets. I did
wait until they launch the app store for the touch bar with some sort of
pricing, and that is there
great services play on the mac, I mean come on, that's what's so its common. You can feel it
your heart. If you wanna tell me that everything I just bluebeard about future was wrong, I actually want you to tell me in my email addresses dieter diverged com
talk to me. I really do want someone that, like
said a little more than I do and night. If I max
doing serious culture future fridays and they do really get work but
general, I feel like we're getting to appoint words no longer like random skunk work projects. It's a thing: they bring
and we can actually start defining what it is. You know, here's the two things I will just very broadly listing tito one feels a crow molasses gonna end up the odd one out right. It's the most
open right now, even though he stated in this is just not the
They're trying to make it like become, is not good click, a third puppets it, but the book. I love
chrome, o s laptops. I have only one they're doing the very narrow task of web browsing the web.
everything else Google wants grandma has to do is like a mass so like it
if they, if their and our intention is to extend the desktop, it seems I crumble. Ass is the one that they should in more meaning
we replaced the secondary essays. Did that
attitude. You're, describing a google where this kind of care is the
thing. That scares me the most about buying Google hardware right right where its sights,
I don't really care they're not invested and regulate the wrong. I keep it up. They're, not gonna, maintain it like I've. I've this home hub and I'm just like- is this product and alive
Are they gonna care they're going to release a home hub to, or is it just gonna sort of like into the ether like so many other Google things disappear into the ether and that that's to me, is they out solve that problem? I think any more people perceive that with google, then that company wants to wants. It is
the biggest problem with Google other than the fact that they are to aspire everybody as it another way. To put it is that I feel it way Google thinks about products like instead of aggressively dog food in things like instead of telling us poor employees like look, we built this one
you better use it. Google has, moreover, of like a vibe like hey. We built this thing you're not using it.
Should we make a different things, then you will use it. You know, like that's gonna like more their attitude about it like they want their employees to be using their there things their components to build the new things and when their employees choose not to google thinks well, may we need to make
different thing, so their employers will want to use that everything seems even Google is like the whole via the company is a college campuses in it. Just often, it often feels like they're like think they come together on project aims and then in the quarter ends
move on, so I can everyone took the class when they built the google WI fi, and then I still want- and I cast
Does anyone we're gonna, Google, wifi anymore, so deeply unclear to me? Maybe they made some lasting memories. Rest vacation ever their author, robotic spare member that I wouldn't let a wifi that products exist,
lots of people we made.
his promises about ay. I doing ban steering leg
is there any? I researcher, Google, is still thinking about channels.
allegations, google wifi or at the latest,
Can it over to the cloud monster like that,
a cloud of good works out
its own say, as I'm sure, there's lots of people who work on all these products, but the company's outward communication about that process gets lost in this like flood of new things,
or gets lost in the flood of not having anything built.
A the Google messaging story and the death of hang out yet what
didn't you, the only one who understands so hang out
Turning into hang ups chat, so enterprise users that use
outs, are getting converted to hang out chat, which is like a slack alike, and also here
its meat, which is, I don't know, let's skype alike, I guess relatively soon and then concurrently.
Google once again, as I will not work
were consumers and regular people we're gonna, do or go to transition
You know something about october, probably will see at an hour. You know it's stake. It's probably got awake.
We value you your grade
a border. The switchover to chat once we sort of figure it out.
In the meanwhile a recommendation for what you should do. If you want talk to somebody is,
eventually will roll out our cs, but that's really a computers
I don't know man you're you figured out there.
its other companies, I guess day at school, we're cool, everything's cool, so
by the way hang us chat is come in. I guess it's not really fork
errors, but if you want to use it sure, I guess
maintain, hang out you're, so there I thought you slack right. I mean that's what's happening here.
use it internally
so unlike other big company like twitter users, hang out thrall, it's always vehicles, so there
it just seems like okay like we. We need this product, we have it. We can keep sort of developing it right, like the interns fix it up every couple months, but they got to do something and that then we
I pay slack. Reality is microsoft. Aims like aerials a get exists as a consumer product just cause it cause. Google needs it to exist or objectives and interprets product. Just goes. Google needs to exist for its own unapprized yeah, let's just very much. My sense of so one is:
yes from our data. My my best answer to what is going on is that rambling, insufficient
a non committal thing. I just gave you and I could. I could give you that again, if you want- or you know
We can move on to things that aren't awful and terrible like that's. That's it like
she isn't going to come out when it comes out. Carry by carrier phoned my phone, the roma,
there has been not quite bungled, but it certainly not like being handled well, there's still a lot of confusion out there and like what they should do is like. Atp now supports our future profile done
instead, as like this one carrier, has this one phone that will let you talk to other one carriers that have the other one phone sort of so there it's like like like him, a mess. Speck of
yeah, it's like I'm. Unless it's exactly the it's exactly like that
sort of get it like not to defend.
our nations wireless carriers, son, something I usually do, but I get it. I break message
usually roll it out without,
some small scale deployments to works right. That's what I must
this is going on, but I don't know
the meantime it's just like. Well, whatever
mike. Also, I kind of I am happy that are
our cs. Roll out is happening slowly and haphazard Lee. It's it's much better story outside the EU. S to be clearly is actually quietly just like happening in a bunch of countries,
but it being messy. It just means that andred users are forced to like make a decision now to see
the signal our wire or, what's up or whatever, so I don't know, I can't
I get the feeling they are the true our cs, rural outcomes, when five g funds it right there could be there
yeah that's a good time to like break everybody's habits. Milk, your files, you phone now, has been
multi media texting, that's part of five g million. You even feel others like this consumer benefit. They can tie into this intangible network change. The ivy restlessly. That seems obvious oda.
say, break through demands a kind. I want to talk about the google nor colossal going to spring poorer than I am.
I'm just basic gonna ramble about the fortnight lawsuits situation until someone makes me stuff,
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Ok, I'm going to start with something you already now. We need to address
the accelerating impacts of climate change and we need
do it now.
something you may now. Microsoft has been carbon neutral since twenty twelve.
is committed to being carbon negative by twenty thirty and their commitment to sustainability focuses on innovative approaches. Take, for example,
the problem of plastic and our motions. Almost all of them,
the pollution in our seas gets their via our rivers but microsoft it
Energy is helping power, a little robotic, both called clear but would use
say. I too identifies scoop trash before flows out to see these many.
These are expected to expand to rivers, harbours and canals across the globe. Here's another example: microsoft
raided, an ocean plastic mouse that, as a shell made in part from the plastic waste recovered from our oceans and beaches. This is the first time.
The ocean plastic has been recycled for consumer electronic plastic and micro
I share. The science so others can adopt. A sustainability is,
hot priority for microsoft, blur more at you
microsoft, dot, com, slash climate.
Do you know you don't remember classical course, partly by fires. Interesting, so android, one
by the time was dealt with the same api causes java and there is a deep relationship between
at java still build andrew adapts with job still did they were built with
vehicles at work the exact same way as the job api calls, what they were not the same api calls if you believe, google they just worked and
smelled exactly the same will happen to share similar names or political named. In some cases, the driver was developed by company called some,
her systems. You might remember some microsystems for its famous ceo, Eric Schmidt, who was once the ceo of Google began chairman of Google to Google he's. Ok, this thing, I'm a java, maybe
Yes and used a lot of java or a lot of java ish things to build entered so microsystems purchased right
Oracle, oracle, ceo warehouse and notably famous for being Steve jobs best friend fact, or
now owns driver, they sue, Google,
years ago now soon google for
fringing, the various copyrights and java and respect
and drama. We cover this lawsuit ages ago. We went to the trials Craig
the town or to the first trial. Where fish concerning this. This is the case. I want it, so the specific copyright infringement is the api.
called names the words that were used, the structure of the AP eyes and java were replicated in.
Drawing even other underline code was not the same. This is the infringement risk. The judge who we ve actually profiled surgeon profile, judge asset for us here.
is the judge who codes basis. This is nonsense in circuit that got overturned
Then they went to a jury. The jury said this is an infringement that got over time.
today Google announced they're asking the supreme court of the united states to rule
whether the the
structure of api calls can be copyrighted in protected because it
this threatens the future of all software development. If coming, I google cannot build a compatible operating system by using the structure of the baby. The structure names, maybe so, can a sum
a thing, that's a piece of a larger thing. Can that smaller thing be copyrighted, shack, larger think it proper
we d copyright as long small thing, we misses the theme of this section, virtuous papa,
right just having laid out what I ve done it. Knowing what you know what you think I never understood this at all
I never understood. Okay, if you want
he's an operating elegant programming language to build an operating system. Did you use all the functionality of that programming language and if it happens to be that the so like? If, if I took, I don't know some imaginary poured out, if you take the programming language, swift right, which has been explicitly opensource right, but it's not doesn't work on all platforms right or it might
partially ported to another platform right, so swift has a lot of functionality, but not all of its functionality works on all platforms, so it sam gonna, do it. I'm gonna bring swift to future re and it's gonna run on future on arm and it's gonna make your fridge talk. I could write some arm code to support the swift functions right. You know I could write that backing code so that it now I can use more of swift so that I can make much talking, fridge, really responsive and great, like that. Just like how you port software to different platforms, if give java was not available for making software philip oracle should have said. This is not for making software. This is just a thing that you look at this
this code that you can. You can read a book that we published about job you you're not was the make softer with java. Does it make any sense papa? I can. I can simplify this far. You have you ever heard of bickering yoga which the hot yoga you'd the yoga you do in a hot room, yeah! Ok, I've heard a guy yoga in twenty fifteen, the night circuit court of appeals ruled,
that become yoga isn't copy ridable, because it is an idea rather than an expression that soap.
you're, really really hoping it relates. It's sort of relates.
This whole section just be charlie me lie here. That's the thing is
like I'm, going to get it wrong and their copyright lawyers going to yell at me, but I'm going to truck
They try to remember what I learned ages ago, yeah. So the idea
expression, economies foundational too, that the notion of copyright law,
so for something to be copyrighted. The right that you're getting is right copy it in order to copy it needs to be fixed, a tangible
if you have an idea for song, you sing that loud copyright, you record it. Now you get a copyright right right. It's you get this tangible six.
Expression. The idea doesn't count so the bickering yoga people they run a manual crowded debate. That manual can be copyrighted, but I do- and it is not so that's a good role thing with Google. An oracle
The main thing is it: oracle did right down there.
Actually sequence and organisation of the java api right, so how it structured
the sequence of those elements- the organisation in it in good,
saying yes in
or to use java for our operating system. We had to reuse at structure, but none of the technical implementation of the fbi is the same as yours. So you re app and java, and you
calcium api android is doing something totally different. It's like right! You call the appeal
You say: return return, this data in a way that java is son, implements it does something to return the data that we enter. It does it to something different, but all actually happening is you're you're, pushing api right
and giving this thing that I won't literally oracle saying to use the structure sequence organization job. If he s, isn't it like that's copyright infringement in Google saying well. No. This is how people know how to code. So we doubt then everybody knows that use java won't be able to write a rapid android founded. It travels happens. So this is like this is the debate. It's not so much. I d and expressed
That's the only thing gash about wisest copyrighted surpass terms. There is a whole set of patent claims and they were they were to us at the heart of this structure, sequence and organization of asia.
It's actually been the supreme court once and it was denied and outgoing again
what is happening or denied to review the case that right, sir,
there's a long history of car, you have to copy the structure. Sequence lay out whatever of of a machine if you want to be complete.
double with it right up. So so, when you made ibm compatible operating
damn. You know you had to make it like. I mean that
is actually a writ. One reason why a lot of people can't forgive microsoft is that microsoft has been extorting companies that have used linux for decades over the for the fact that linux implements the fat file system right. We have eighteen right, the dumbest simplest file system of all time, that's been around for thirty or forty years. Microsoft has a patent on it and so microsoft extorts money out of companies for using linux, because them
about. I mean it. Is this why we should abolish patents? Are copyright thank
programme of the fat patents one expired. So that's fine, but it still
give microsoft for being because it s all about it here-
I believe it is really about, but we can move on to the next thing, because the next
is the expansion of copyrights in digital spaces, which troubles
every time, I seventeen slot between my lot assuage rode down from taiwan to Pakistan's. So there's
these people suing epic there's four cases I think about enhancing amounts. In fortnight
and we ve done some good coverage ethnic relegate peace. He talked to a lawyer who had been a professional dancer like the decision
best, analyse that you can find for such a thing right
the cholera lawyer who's been. Do we actually is a dancer in his grey coverage out there
I don't think anybody is really thought, but through the public policy implications are here that here, like the facts, she's got to merely the wrapper. You got the guide, the Carlton dance.
gotta, floss kid there all represented by the same law, firm they're, all suing epic, because epic, like lifted their dances into these Emma
it's complicated, I buy them what usually by the battle passing from pakistan, maybe by them individually, but
they say, you're selling our dance, and we deserve a cut of that right. That is a lot.
So then you have a lot of people saying well, that's true, like they made
saying they put this culture in the world. A fortnight is selling it the diversion of it there making tons of money a fortnight, just printing money with
or night. It only makes sense that they should have to pay. These people may be stances right. You can't just like boost stuff out of internet culture and resell it somewhere else. Why? It's? It's only fair, and I think that fairness argument is a very powerful for people. Given the scale of
success yeah boy, I think, is extremely dangerous, and so I don't think we should abolish copyright messages. I was a covenant learn through due to me, but
every time they exert every time back. If we could keep but
Every time you expand the the realm of
be ridable. Subject matter, you run into insane side effects that we see over and over again. So this
issue has never really been litigated before it has quite frank,
there's not a lot of money and dancing just a real thing, but for has a lot lot of ice. This offer is out there, so you can copyright a work of choreography, so the single ladys dance that beyonce doesn't video. If you just like do that whole thing again in self autumn, money
Saint choreographers can sue you for lifting her choreography. If you want to put on a broadway show eared, I swill theatre,
and by the choreography to a broadway version in a book required if he's written down and eat. I redo it rightly by these rights to crack visa like along piece of choreography. Is copyright apple thing if he has special? If you read it out, if you know
or you make a bit of it expression. It is not clear whether a sequence of dance moves is copyright above the copyright office, not the law, but the copyright office says no rightly, ok, the losses, but when you look like just under the guidance of the copyright office there like no like their example, is the hustle is not copier annabelle casucha like a common dancin, but that's not the law that is the copyright office has gotten. So these cases are going to create precedent for, like the quantum of dancing, the desperate
possible under copyright law and that that were I want a move that unit of dancing is not yet. We don't know where the threshold is between what is not protected, because it's just the hustle iraqi due to hustle or its dislike larger peace, peace of choreography pool, and what about? What about? Like? Simultaneous dance invention, like you, people, rush
I too, like like, like they put it s, Deckard of a video of them like doing undue dance, move and then mail to themselves like the work, the trick with copyright right
that you have a good time stamp of when you invented a dance and now you can sue everybody, whoever does that doubts move yet sides. I should airs.
For I you like fairly say, like the current man's guy, he's press,
so he invented it on the reference probably like the awkward deeds name is too milly. It's called the miller awkward
writing, but that unit of ownership doesn't exist like it's not clear where the boundaries of the unit of ownership are, which is a very hard concept to get your head around
right. You can own a song,
you write a song, you can register copyright a song
known the sample of asylum rights
and you can owner riff as well.
Can't on the song title right now, it's all differently, but you cannot some notes
It's like the difference between these are just some notes in this is a rough, and this is me quoting your if in a transformative work, those are all things get litigated case by case, and we do it for songs sons
got can't money. You it right, reuse, aurette! Can't you can just like take the satisfaction reference rolling stones like make satisfaction again, but you will gets
For that I don't know, but I said that's pretty close to advance its timing right,
doing, and how long you do it so,
famously robin thick and for our got sued for blurred lines, rosy right and court ruled? This is too close to two.
Some even outside, so you there's a lot of that press it out there in the law, but here in acting there's an expectation right like a bird lines had flopped at anybody got ensued low. You make this head you're, making lots of money authors who think they control
it's your work and I come for you. None of that expectation is their culturally with dancing right
you see, Michael Jackson, moon walking. You can moonlight. No one thinks, like
of moon walk in a bar. I hope this bar has jukebox licence, which is tat. You would usually were so
as might my worst case scenario right, there are
dance, music, trolls invoke arms, start up of the bible.
The rights to dance moves on the internet for cash right,
so you know in dollars you gonna go by one huh
dance moves for ten thousand dollars. Each right, like
yours, I didn't do it
by a lot of money and ease the rescue and ours to file lawsuits against other people who do that dancing because who's that
Gonna, take the up front cash payments, further dance move! This happened,
the problem or thing until fortnight, right until fourteen the other reason that people go after it. If in any cover situations, if there's more
Ok, I'm saying this unit have ownership has never existed before.
Who never existed before. There's no cultural heritage,
but there's there's. There are million places where
The law around owning a thing is complicated. As hell we did the super long podcast
we are about mechanical rights. We have accurate mick mick, whatever was with music. You know what
What's one more super complicated, vague area of law for people to see each other over goods?
burning down, and you know epic is still gonna make money like. Are you worried about
stifling, dance, move innovation in the world? Is that yeah sure frayed, I've absolutely worried about cycling, dance, movie, innovation? Wouldn't you be worthy of levelling down through innovation, know dude. I can't dance
why don't you worry about cycling, dance renovation? My point is this set this thing, which is very strange:
which is digital representations of dancing for avatar has created.
Fortunately, for there to be a new quanta of ownership and copyright, which is crazy right, like too
a new thing that you can own does like not happen very often,
that you can go sue. Somebody else just for
doing a youtube video right, so I now
like some. You two were for eight seconds in a video. The kid can cast will now have the right to go them for whatever portion of youtube ab revenues. Again,
they're, not demonetized. Indeed, you asked to develop a content, ideal system to make sure
dances are not infringing in their videos.
Because they don't secondary liability. If
we want to point out. Yesterday. All kinds of Ethel players do dances on the sidelines on this score: touchdowns
a lot of money in the nfl do all this
We'll get to go, see the players, the nfl, the broadcasters, if you accidentally do it adds that you didn't know copyrighted. This is like the pandora's box of
crazy that these laws, so I think, everybody's very focused on the unfair and
of wealth transfer here, but I think that
nightmare scenario of like me,
thin, merv old being like will this worked in patents? I'm just gonna run around buying up dance moves, so I can
just go see they do this music samples happens. There are companies will scan
four samples I am worried about
dance move, patent, troll organizations, dance, move, troll
Yes, finally, my allah and then next that rate villain, that's better marvel to deliver. If we can, if we could stop that from happening, and we just allow these they quantity of movements to be copyright of all, then we have
a massive source of non governmental funding for the arts,
choreographers no get paid jack yeah now here is a way for them to make some money. It's clue. That's a poorly monetize, both profession,
like I just in my egg. I've been thinking about. It deserves a fourth classify this week
so you go, listen to function with an eel dash, but also about new pakistan working the whole thing about sir. The iniquity of of the wealth transferring actually had to merely on his show goes had its is its fine self, but I just I want this
also think, like you're, creating a new thing, you're, creating a new thing that people can sue over in like the history of platform,
being overzealous with knocking down
copyright infringement. This
dmca complaints, the histories of unscrupulous law firms trolling because of intellectual property rights
I actually have some value to accept to pause point something's not being copyrighted, discover it not existing in some places. Does it lets people just do stuff? It lets cultures
bread faster and serve. You start adding money and rights to something that is strictly not had it
you will necessarily crush it and I
I think everyone so focused on the unfairness aspect, that the knock on effect of kids on youtube. Getting suit is like not there like there.
Whole fight in europe right now over articles eleven and thirteen were google and facebook would have to pay a link tat.
when they have to every online service provider, has aggressive content shouldering ideas
Imagine if you added dance moves to that mix, because you can beyond them. That's nuts, that's it loretta
you do it all like being a boss, exact tuesday, tennis to the kids homework, and you do at all and style. That's why we can
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soon us rumoured
making headphones. Yes, sir,
from german over bloomberg and seems like he's, got some
is but an addition of that sort,
as recently told shareholders quote, we plan to push
boundaries by investing resources to make the experience of solos outside the home. A reality which is the worst quote ever
I gotta. Why would you want so knows headphones?
number one, maybe they'll sound good right like that. That seems like a good reason right
Is there any other reason? You'd want important.
there so knows headphones as opposed to just good sounding sony, ear, banging olsen or whenever headphones the ideal with a sort of headphones. This would pay off if you're walking home. You know you
got the tray and you walk home and you listen to a song and songs about to get real good, and so you take off your headphones. You put them on a sonos stock and then your
play. I'm your soto system comes alive. You know, unlike the song climax, is really exciting. That would be the sonos experience. Experience for had once otherwise are really get. It now
the only other reason I could think of to what I have seen us headphones is, if you somehow
think that so software of, like queuing up all like integrating,
different music services that you listen to into a single app and letting you like queue up things from like here's, the thing from ipod cast up and then I'll play some music next and then I'll play
thing from the sea, no radio apt that does the news and the love of a block, and you just
want to have like a centre
repository of everything that auditory that you ve got and then
you'll, be only use out with your headphones in addition to using it at home. Yeah can just how, like I q, but then he ran away
root, audio in your life through the santos app, which is just deeply depressing. The eggs
from solar cells perspective. That is exactly what they need to be doing is otherwise other acts are theoretically gonna, get better at at routing,
Audio and they'll also work with home speakers. The arsenals yeah
I mean, I think I think they just need more products. What science is effectively saying is, like our product line is limited to these experiences at your house. People really by so many speakers. We need us-
and one more thing organism raynham indoor ecosystem. In a way that is additive, let you would be
cool. If you put on your son us headphones at home, any audio switched from you sent us beamed your headphones yet without would be need, but that doesn't boundaries around us experiences out out of the home. Yet
To me, I feel, like eight, we reported at sea s on a survey. They were doing across a bunch of platforms whether what product should make max had
we're not on that list was a bunch of other stuff like
a cheap persona. Sub at most were firing. Speakers like yeah. I think that stuff will take them farther
rolling out Google assistant, which dear I saw, will accelerate them. I just I'm very curious what they can offer for headphones in that same report by the way was very interesting and anger. I mentioned the apple was making headphones,
own high and cans, and they are projects with a rumour around for a while. You appletons beats
birth, the original super premium, expensive, headphone, red nose.
apple remembers. That has is ever acquisition been so like bungled, most acquisitions, not legislate, they brought me
I get that apple music exists.
There is no reason to spend a billion dollars to buy the core of apple music. Defiling could have gotten those deals in built that service themselves
it's all has been re architect it along the way
solid jimmy and dry and trent resin are doing anything.
Right. You don't know that terrorism is not doing anything. I just I promise you he's gonna work everyday me like
I think we should fired you hundred car engineers, like you know that
Don't think I like they probably already gotten their monies worth from beats. Just in hardware sales yet mean
as part of the deal raising. This is like this acquisition and pay for itself, but they didn't do anything with the products except
put w one in them and then inconsistently ab lightning ports.
They just amazing it out like there can be rumours in the world of apple making headphones. When I bought a dominant headphone company, I just feel like a lot of acquisitions. Go that way you answer so don't mess
Yeah I mean how long is google o nest right
so there are. That's. There's that story this week of of people's passwords, getting reuse that people had bad passwords. Certain people lie in their nest, cameras where they re used. Passwords and people are dying, s accounts and then we're issuing like fake warnings of impending worth north korea. You see this,
nest? Not really are fall right, like evans, agnes cameras get hacked and look into what it really is in its we raised her password. Well, it s could have
I kept a closer eye on. I don't know you. You could make the case that at some point, nest should like look at its customers that don't have to factor
and I know, is the onus like let their customers dollar their you're on
I've been owned and we notice ye should change your password. You know what I mean by right. I don't know
but you could make the case that they might have had some responsibility like try and keep an eye out.
for some of their customers. It might have had passwords compromised on other sites. Maybe I don't want to. I want to say that, but sure for anyone, it maybe is mentioned as a limit cameras and thermostats live
hired duty of care right right but necessary by Google, and you
login to your nest account with your google account
ran Google. Does all that stuff like it's? That is just a
easy situation to me that
I mean I literally one marauders receive here, he's gone now. I emailed him
I just bought an estimates that why can't I log into my google account- and you just replied with
Good idea, smiley face those like the two and a half years ago,
do your ipod- maybe maybe the solution to like- and I trust in them
this actually just let everyone by each other, because billboard evidently fall before those whom you think you were joining,
my team, I'm not on your team Paul and I'm just interested in your letter.
My team has sensible antitrust rules which in some
Outcome of copyright laws are jimmy command, real, quick on what's gonna with netflix,
You learn unwrapped the singer. Only if we let Paul do his weekly segment that we never forget about and that in a week with the same name, all the time bomb.
inside I like you- are gonna love this week. So much like always. The second is called my heart is alive.
Frequency asked later yeah and
the feeding of engineering is, is the greatest company on earth. They just came out with this, like it's called opie zed as the european say, or a pc.
She's the followed the opie one with so it's like a little synthesizer things. Really cool has no screen very hard to used very exciting, but just now I guess cut his name. They announced another pair
act, which is this line of pocket operator modular sense. So I don't know if I didn't hear about modular synthesis telling six months ago, but imagine this neil. I imagine again
that is only headphone jack's. Yes, sometimes volume knobs,
yeah. So suddenly
plodded early, ass, cable, sometimes often actually so so. Basically,
it is in its just a money. Think so you get into the euro. Rack system is three point: five millimeter this also modular synthesis with cormorants jack's. This is
dinner is trying to make a very affordable modular synthesis. Set up. It's it's looks, awesome it'll it in it. I mean it's not cheap, its five hundred dollars, but that's cheap for modular synthesis.
it's got a lot of stuff to anyway. If you have ever heard of modular sent. This is if you like, spreading thousands of dollars on gear, its there's so much youtube waiting for you up there, I'm ready for it. I love teenage engineering, it's my fault
by russia, and I should note that its man this week speak musn't. Trade show
danny deal and wider at nam and their reporting on a bunch of wild stuff physics
for us this year, like I want us to do more tools, coverage for creators khazars
splitting of need, podcasting staff,
Video streamer, stuff, neat, camera.
for you to errors. Instead,
is like a renaissance of photography equipment.
I want to. I want us to do a lot more about this year and connect the tools greater.
Using the platforms are using the work that it that's the verge. That's the thing that we do so look out for if you're into this music staff look out for day invited shriek surname days, some wild interviews
the actual am excited for ok, I was already netflix knew, but here's a news, netflix cost,
george, more and who's gonna cost your eyes left. So it's a wash. Yes,
most of it. It's just like the folks makes a ton of.
These are the shows all the time it gets. You know oscar nominations and it did bob
I will join you handmaids tail netflix
every year, which this makes me so sad hulu and they
who has a handmaids tail and like they're, just six to around like this, I hate to say it but like hulu, is not
making the splashes that they need to, and so it makes sense that their job in their prices, let some kind of needle netflix a little bit
good on out. But this could sailor they're gone there. Is there some wild there
they have some good originals. A man have obviously the first run stuff from the major networks.
what I will say is that I like assigned out like we need to do now
It's a sou piece by rising looking at today, thrust welsh it'll be a by the time you listened to pull over in a car in return for citizens, but so one of the things that have different content, obviously, but there also technically very different worlds apart. Netflix technically is where, if right netflix supports for K, they support television dates. Some seven utmost have lots of softens around sound
Hulu is like ten gdp. Syria, in most cases at most, sounds like marinus as a christian, it mentions ransacked he's like actually who supports ransacked, but only in certain devices in its day in cures tears there
who you can get surround sound from hulu
And tender switch, but you cannot get
it is true, but you cannot get it on
apple tv or wrote.
It's an xbox one, the ps for the switch you can make it
stuff anew, sir answered but not wrote sugar tv, it's actually bonkers at our summit
doing, and thus I paid him two dollars less among my question is what why is there a service for people who, like movies, that already made you let a man like? I want to watch doktor strange
it's called voodoo or itunes movies. You oughta pie there, yet
rent and yeah. You like to know how bravely service they lost all
rights to stuff
It is one the stuff in the junk. Will you,
describing Paul is hbo her
You get hbo, atrium library movies in her fine, thereby justs very small, curated selection of film.
you're! Looking for every movie right now, I'm looking for doctor, strange of which, by the way, there's not a very good- I mean. I know there are a couple websites to help you find which service a film is on, but there's not a very good one
that I think Paul you should go full on into owning physical media
the next step for you in delight criteria
collection blue, raise in the like wise of books
like I'm, going to go visit you and enter like abuse, plush mahogany media space? Yes, ok here my thing I
by one physical media is not great like archival ali. Unlike her, like a last for her,
years. Neither is digital media. No, but at least you did it,
wait here, you're equality, what you're
but here is it, should latticed outlast you? Yes,
I could buy like a holographic cube right that stores of film for over a hundred years. That's microchip paused, craig!
here yeah collection. Over a hundred here, oh my gosh, I was going on to lie in eighty flatly thirty seconds left it needs this. There needs to be a K management.
Before k is not equal to the resolution.
Thirty five millimeter film making two archival set anyways, that's what that's. When I moved to physical me,
get out zoning,
who's gonna make a weird format that last for four hundred years making its sony.
Yes, I've, anyone, it sonys listening memory, stick eight kit, memories, the cube few alpha.
That's been the verge fast everyone.
Most of the year it really only january sir. That's fine back next
What about another interview episode
the virtuous on thursday. Listen all of season. Three why'd you button. It is a good podcast that you can listen to well produced tells a narrative story it.
on time? So listen that should actually get a great. You can listen to pay
it was got going care, switcher,
function earlier than was an official in the dash our great chosen, the box me podcast network. You also follows and other social platforms, but honestly Scully shut it down rebook, but what wallace in death? Ok right now.
Paul email me about future doctors. Strange of is available on archive dot org, but is that legal? I don't know
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Transcript generated on 2022-06-02.