The Verge's David Pierce, Nilay Patel, and Alex Cranz each discuss the big open questions they have about the future of Apple, and the hottest takes about the company.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
come of the votes, cast the flagship high of planned obsolescence. I'm your friend, David pierce and, as you probably know, there's a big apple event. Coming up really soon were expecting new iphones new apple watches, probably new airport. it's a bunch of new software, all kinds of stuff coming, and that means it is time for what I have come to consider my annual moral obligation, which is to go to the mall, go to the apple store and tell everybody who's shopping for phones not to buy a phone because there's a new one just about to come out. We are also going to be spending. This show talking about apple, but not so much the event. We didn't want to make a bunch of predictions that turn out to be totally wrong or have feelings about things we don't even necessarily know are coming yet so we're going to We have that all for the Friday show it's going to be a big one on this, We're gonna talk more about apple in general, it's the most valuable company on earth. It makes some of the most influential products that anyone uses and we want
into where the company is right. Now what changes for apple now that it's so big and so popular? What are the next big products for apple? Why is apple so obsessed with making tvs? Why is Nila so obsessed with apple being obsessed with making tvs we're going to get into one? What's that I gave me lion Alex some homework, which was to come with big questions and jests place. Spicy takes and we're gonna dig into all of the things we want to know about the future of apple. But before we get to all of that. I need to go. Save this person who looks like they're about to buy an iphone twelve, which just honestly seems like a terrible idea. This is the verge guess, we'll be right back.
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overheated takes, and I should say right at the top, I'm just ruthlessly stealing this from the ringer on her fancy for bullshit. They have a thing called the take purge, which is just a whole episode where the hosts, just say the things that they don't actually believe but feel deep in their bones anyway? So where does we're gonna steal that from them and do some overheated takes that you don't really believe, but you can't believe alex you started last, you did your homework while we were sitting here getting ready to record, so you get to go first, you get to present first, because that's what the cool teacher does is: try to tear as you in front of everybody alright I really want to know everybody won't shut up about an apple car that I have yet to see. This is on a mine too, which is why am I supposed to care that the What car is like? They can't care about it, it's hard. Yet at this point apple could just follow along with every other carmaker and just show us a three d render of a car and be like here's, our car, They were just match what every other carmakers to give us a hundred dollars on a pre order.
in two years from now maybe we'll ship a car. Like me, that's actually great business models for a lot of people give a hundred bucks surrender. I will answer your question with my first question: has that yes the biggest open question rabble Can I find another market? That's big enough to make a dent in. Is that and the thing they should do so the reason they are chasing cars and the reason they are chasing health and the reason what there chasing an everyday, also doing. Is because they need some I think that will generate enough money to be like ten percent of the biggest company that has ever existed on earth and the only way you can do that is if you eat a whole industry and street I shouldn't be. Cars is a tvs. It should the federal government likes stems like you know that They get cobalt and all that stuff, that's that's basically dead, nobody's running an apple could be that company apple could do it's all gonna be swift, you either buttons won't make any sense of the grey every couple years. Little change for another reason have you
I to do and insurance claim piles now you like, but that's that's their problem right leg of the answer to why are they doing a car? Is The car industry is big enough said. If you become a d, when a player in cars, you can tell all your investors, you can tell your employees entirely too makes money under stock. We have got. I fear that is meaningful yeah. Like every question on asking by the way did this is my warning to you all. My questions are just while they make a tv expressed in slightly different ways. Let's give us it's about half a mind to so it's only five, but now I think it's funny rina, because I've been rereading the new thing, which is Michael Louis's work from like the late nine, these about Jim Clark who founded netscape, and it is like, precisely what you're describing it's like. Guy starts. A computer company gets very big. Guy goes okay! Well, what do? What do I do? Next? I have to top that somehow. So he starts an internet company which was very big get, makes a lot of money gets very excited and then Ok, but what do I do next? I have to build something even bigger and he has helped
That is the thing right. It is like it is this massive industry that seems like it's a mess and everyone who is like well, if I can just take a slice of that, I can make a lot of money and I seem smart so that I can convince somebody that this is plausible is like. There is only a handful of those, and I feel like cars is one of them, and health is one of them, and so it makes sense that apple just has to keep like pointing at those things how serious it is is? to know it seems very serious in a way to you, be very serious when you're the richest company on planet earth, but I'd oh how much I'm supposed to believe that there is ever going to be like a good car that p. We care about and drive that apple makes? I have no idea. can be like sony and they just like pivot to party speaker As always, I renew my call that if you are on the sony party, speaker team and you ve been in a meeting in which the third generation of party speakers has been agreement, I'll give you the whole show you'll get a week. Long,
average hast episodes just to talk about that product. So sony is like the classic example, though yeah and we don't perceives sony in this way in this country, but sony historically its balance sheet. Is it big insurance company in Japan that happens to make tvs and party speakers and they pivoted that company. To a much larger business, the consumer business was fading in that's, like I dont think apple should so life insurance, something sony cells in japan, but you can see why they're moving in the same re general direction, which are what next biggest industries and we trip Michael on average, has several months ago. I just slipping through his book again about. apple after Steve, which is excellent and like this is explicit in apples. Thought process in TIM cooks thought process. What is next biggest market? I can go after wreck because we in order to grow, we have to attack the big markets
is what led to the car. It is what has led to a bunch of their health efforts, which my without ever an also keep talking about. and has generated virtually nothing and, to some extent it's why they went to watches instead of teepees This also why they went to entertainment, right lake. It's why they went into that space to try. They went to services yeah. They were just chasing revenue and army, like we usually when you say that we mean that is, like cynically as possible, but in the case of apple like they really had to go chase growth because they were already so big that trying to find another category is because the iphone was less a good option than sewing iphone customers more things, but, like I guess this is not one of my five questions is a brand new fresh question, a boy why are they pursuing these really known categories when they effectively invented some categories riot, like figured those out into the really well and indeed cases apple is going to like places. Withers around
newly established competitors like what is the disruption to be had and apples like, I know, we're gonna disrupt car This feels like there's lower hanging fruit to go. Disrupt dimly smaller. I think that's even the tv industry is like too small. That's why apple won't? Do it yeah right and it's that that doesn't turn over enough and people aren't shopping on their tv's enough, like they can't in that case, the getting that screen in everyone's living room is more valuable than the screen they already have in everyone's earlier and which has the phone rang so they might as well put their software on other people's hardware and then do it over there in india there right Just aren't many industries that are bigger than the iphone and so like they are, they are inventing you now are as we know they are heard about them. They're gonna start with me reality in there trying to invent a big new category. in the meantime, has something a long time in the meantime you're, trying to run some of the play book that they ve IRAN, which is everybody hates the software, and therefore, what? If apple, did it ever hates their mobile phone one apple,
like? They want apple, to replace the razor speed, big industries. That apple should be play more and to my first question, which is when apple going to get like actually serious about winning at video games? Video games? Is it granting industry apple arcade is like kind of working and to me it's like stop making things. The t shows that when awards- but nobody cares about- unlike go by some video games make me a game console. Do a game streaming thing like give. one whole shit about gaming and it seems, like apple, has like real moves to make here. I think, there's a lot of problems, the rate microsoft. In other companies have consolidated that industry a lot it's a lie smaller industry than it was when we talk about indie games and everything. But any games are relatively small piece of the puzzle. Most people are like call of duty and all about you in microsoft is up there be linked up, we'll take that will take that and also or watching Google they've seen like Google went and was like yeah we're going to get serious about video games and for most people, serious, equates with consoles and doing these
immersive. You know twenty our experiences, not what apples really good at which is mobile gaming. Anything there, the biggest mobile gaming there, the most six So, if that serious is council, gaming tat would be so bad for them. I mean there's still a lot of transactions that take place and consuls right, the future of all this, though, it has to be streaming so they're gonna do something I dont think they're gonna ship Andy processors in a box. The run operating system that is largely irrelevant to then play a game. Apples of game pass, feels like where it would have to go. Isn't it kate, it is, but as for mobile games, I think David's questions like. Why is it that this huge industry, that's growing, primarily based on microtransactions, right, yeah fortnite is free and you buy stuff in fortnite like apple and epic, are in a gigantic fight over the fees of buying things in fortnite, but epic happily pays the fees to sony and epic happily pays the fees to microsoft. Why won't apple get,
next term, and we like now when you play games in your living room. Aren't you paying us? I think the answer? Is they just can't see it like? It's been three decades of this question? Rather deprecate open geo. Have they want with metal? No one went to meddle with them. They had their own wacky jp. You ideas the industry's cheat, they hate nvidia, they just hate nvidia. One time in video made some jp use made macbooks get hot and apple is never free and there is a recall and apples. Never forget that company in their little louis dented as one hundred percent what happened in it just like their aversion to the to doing the foundational work to be good. At games in the current ecosystem of games will has cut them away from forever. I dont think they're averse to what's if a data center in run games there and stream them to you, but even that data center will end up, fill it full of other people's sheep use. He need that data.
An upright needs to run open g like it needs to run direct x or whatever it is the games run on, because none of apples, foundational technologies who run the games it constantly courting of those those developers and in those studios rate and apple, has very little interest there, like they ve worked with them. They got cap on to do stuff, the garden these big studios. oh know to do some development producing games arcade, but there are meeting in the game development space, everybody's, oh yeah, one day, they'll do gaming, and I dont know how apple could ever No, that is serious enough for them to believe it, especially after we saw like Google, be like our serious, but gaming ends. Data frequently becomes the punchline sorry So when I say ah, no one mentioned stadia on this when just stadia fans come into my twitter to say that clearly hit stadia all four of them that exists all four of them? Are there saying I hid stadia but lake? It's you know Big tec is kind of shown that they,
it'd, be interested in the space cause. They know what's funny, amazon's doing the same thing with Luna right and you have to tune it really badly the student, everybody, is participating in the future are like obese off one of the biggest game developments. It is the air they don't do it to be, thing sure you can play assassins creed on every device. It was ever It notably resources in indy ray, I mean they need that that widespread support. In most like the consolidation of the industry means that it's just really hard for apple, even if it did decide to be serious about it, and microsoft is just this elephant in the room, alex. I think to your point, like the thirty years of not doing. This is a really interesting point that I had not thought of, because it seems to me like what we are talking about. Swimming is like this is the moment right like if you're ever going to say we are People are serious about like turning the apple tv into a game council which they like hinted at before and never done in any real way. Games for me would be the moment to be like this technology all exists. We have an annual the ability to make it all work, and I one of my life
throw away overly high takes was that, if apple and epic weren't being sued apple would have just bought epic by now, which I have no reason to believe. That's true, but it just like that is a neat solution to a lot of like things, Apple wants to be in the future. It is an interesting point. I wonder if anyone would take apple seriously. If there were like we care about games now rebecca ok, they also did this big fight to right. They did this fight with microsoft. in syria and all the other streamers where they were like you know, we don't want you honor service, because we don't get a out of it as you bypasses entirely. We don't want that, and they were alike. Ass. We are not going to be a cut of a sixty dollar game that somebody buys on our service. F off. We're just gonna run out of the browser. and I think apple has to make a really compelling case for why these companies don't eat, run off the browser anymore and is it going to do that because apple once a cut of the money and what is the cut that microsoft and google willing to say yeah I'll pay, that to get myself on the apple tv
What's was this example now microsoft is gonna ship box, game pass the streaming version. There is a lot of bad names and microsoft world. So xbox and just call tat. They, been hinting so spencer, said in decoder, they're gonna put it on smarties yeah, it's coming, in so that's a deal you gotta make with a and tv you gotta go to a samsung and algae and sony whoever and say: ok we're. start transacting on your platform in there's some business relationship there for sure you could make that deal An apple microsoft could make that deal with an apple and say: ok, we want to be in your box to and we lost. Games apple, could make a deal with microsoft and say: okay like please, don't take office away What is your underwear thing like there's? A lot leverage on both sides of that agreement are on both sides. That relationship in what are the terms who knows the hard part apple is apple. Now runs effectively a nation state on its phone were veto. It makes
effectively legal decisions and there's a lotta government regulators in lawsuits. Look at those decisions an epoch. Why does microsoft get this preferred treatment and we don't and Google will say it and amazon will say it, and once you do that now, you've just like opened and ordered to game streaming on your platform. I'll, get to see inside of the transactions and either. Apples, like kind hamstrung, to make good what should he had no brainer deal with microsoft, to say xbox seems really now available on the island, and its kind of a no brainer deal for microsoft right like but I think the larger contacts it is then people podcasts like this, will show up and say what is game streaming? Why? Why doesn't it? Why can't I stream apps to the phone entering act inside of the aps, like what is it? What is a game but but type of application? You just end up on take your right now ends up having to defend these very fine gradations between the car
of code that run on its platforms makes it's ok. We should keep moving me. I d, like only half way, did your questions are given up on. What's up what does under less? Well, this wonder, says: why won't you build a tv, Let's see read, I think apple over reacts to external competitors, the iphone a lot. Yes, They turn into things and a name. They realize it's, not a real threat and they back off in the product fails that thing, I'm specifically thing about is the homepage right there early with syria and then amazon shut up in a lax and google shut up with assistant. An apple completely overreacts to it right. They think Syria should do all the same things. Those products should do they rush out the home pod, which had been brewing in the background forever, and I like couldn't get it together, yeah they. Finally like alright, we're just seem let this team ship it in wait. These things are not actually eating the iphone; it turns amazon alexa is not a viable replacement for the iphone, even in their home.
it's a very useful and people like them and amazon is he has no, or else that's what's gonna bet on it. I don't know what, who is doing with assistant nick neglecting it I think the answer is around its around, but you just see apple kind of like rushed itself into a corner and then forgot to iterate, because there is no pressured and actually exists to compete I think this is a sort of a pattern with them, and so the one I would give you right now is we keep hearing about, are from literally mark Zuckerberg from insure rogan, rogan, podcast and seems like they're gonna get to market with us, super expensive mixed reality. Headset outsiders. On it, and it just says I Is this also an overreaction? Yes, is it there? so afraid of not being dominant in the end that they're going to make a move and then recognise a pressure. Is there and let it wither away, which I think is more unless we happen to her. But I would but the watch in that category as things that were kind of an over reaction to what apples
as the thing that might kill you. I found as there is that moment, whereas, like ok, ever did the future of this all his whereabouts right. It's like biometrics, sending me accessible, computers, underbody, and that was thing that was going to kill the iphone. As we have discussed many times, tat I think they did that to the mac in some way. Rather, they went all in on tablets because they thought it was going to eat the mac, and then it turns out the mac was surprisingly resilient and then they made the mac good again and people liked it like it turns out. If you just make it good, people will like it now I mean, I think the the flip side of that is that the the iphone has been like astoundingly durable overtime, like a lot of things have shown up and nothing has even Ben any kind of real threat. If anything else, every that has happened as like entrenched the smartphone, because it is now like the centre of all of these universes. Then you manage alexa on your phone like that you do alexa you talk to it on. Thing, but you do all the elects. A work on your phone and apple has always talked about this right that, like, if you dont, cannibalize your own stuff, somebody else will, but it does.
kind of feel like apple is, is like chasing its own demise. Even when it's not there. like sees bogeyman everywhere, if you don't cannibalize your own thing, somebody s will as a a statement of confidence, sure we Oh it's next, we're gonna make the thing that so good the people by the old thing anymore and usually the times I have said that we're steve jobs, introducing a slightly smaller ipod, might be just a historically when apple says that thing it's right there a big thing, and now they made a small thing. That's like eighty five percent as good as the big thing, like that's the ipod, But many of the many to the nato weena macbook tim book air right like that pattern to when they say that? It's usually within the same category. They ve rarely done it outside the cat or even the iphone. So the macbook wasn't that thing in that right. There are light years if we give to plug it in your peter to set it up. It took a decade to get there
then I say I just lately apple- has been its reactive perceived threats. Instead of creating its own, I mean is. My other big question is who will take to cover up? Okay, wait. Let's come back to that, one. First, we're going to take a break, we'll be right back
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the rack, okay who takes over after tim cut diva theory on this, or is this just a genuinely open question My fear, is that the chef Williams we just focus on making products- that we're excited about and let the or they may be added. He seems to be like the leader in the club asked yeah yeah, it seems, are going to look up ass, a really likes him he's been becoming more and more prominent, which is a very only apple. Cats kind of attention can measure the amount of minutes people get on stage. I then you see like no other company. Does that or very few, but jeff waves is almost as old as to cook. That seems to me, like the big reason. Right that everybody says he's not gonna be the person is because we just having the conversation in two years. Europe. Fiber ever mean very accurately elderly,
there's no like sixty five year old apple. It's not like a nineteen sixties item or whatever take your watch and leave yeah exactly the same car can keep going he's, told kara swisher in the past. He doesn't expect to be doing it for another ten years, so there is some sort of looming event our friends in natural choice. But again it's are you getting five years or even fifteen years it will he be as successful right like every leader changes the culture of the organization, that's just true again trips, but is basically a book about how TIM cook changed. The culture of apple to focus more on growing products are still good, but, like that's the whole book, yeah. I think it is a remarkable, open question, because Tim cook inherited the company from Steve jobs, but whoever or a company. Next one heard it from TIM cook. What is delayed. overall sense of of sort of what Jeff Williams thing is, could re like Steve jobs was like the visionary and then too cook was like the ruthless executed right that was like when he came in. That was like what everybody understood was like. It is now tomb cooks, job. He is
the operations king of the universe, is a supply chains. Guy yeah he's just going to come and make this the tightest most efficient company in the world which, like by all accounts. He has basically done. Is there floating around about Jeff Williams. In that sense, like does he have a vibe? No riot That's right! I don't think there's any way you could describe. The ceo of apple is just a guy. That does that right, but I I think apple is a very secretive company. They show you who they want to show you even tim cook. He does not get onstage me like this. Next iphone, sweet three sense of margin of a tiny supplier share, heard of and to apple at our scale. That represents five billion dollars right, like that's his thing, I think there is a real sense that Jeff whims that person he saw, does that thing there. They apparently bout concepts similar in that way, and I think that it is true that Paul is not apple. Without that operational, Someone like you cannot be the case:
ships, a billion iphones every minute and then a new one. Every year I must act the core of the company, is operations right now apply chain management and logistics management like operated a scale. It is incomprehensible to anyone else. So I think maybe you need. You need a leader who respects that and I buy all kinds of jobs respected, that element of cook, but jobs never ran a company as big as apple. Soon as him cook runs a company, that's as big as tim cook made the company. Who are you going to find? Do that? only be one national choices. Somebody who existed in that company already there before Again, what are the other companies at this scale in its Oh, you really do have to go. Find a defence tracker executive to manage something this complicated. And managed by the way, your geo political relationship with china and sit down on trumps right hand. One tromp is like a ban every imports from china and get him to tobacco that these are all things TIM cook had to do. They have almost nothing to do with. Are the eye
Anthony. I found any good yeah and partially. I think his skill is like letting that be took, maybe his detriment, because I don't know if you have seen some of apple's software design and recently the icons are bad for the place I love or pile bright, but like they are doing it at that scale, which is, I think, is the victory. Okay, so alex nitrogen. What's acts what you got this one's kind of adjacent. Some of this, if we ve been talking about, but can apple link. Do the whole. We love privacy. We care about privacy weary of your privacy wires, protecting you from everybody? If the training you and also do the ad business there quietly growing, maybe not quietly, but there definitely growing and had business. Like increasingly not quiet. It kind of reminds me of the whole. Google do no evil, but also be the biggest at business in the world and eventually they had to decide and they said money here. I said our work, but don't be. Evil is not a thing anymore. For us, it's cool, that's a good book! I can no, and I think even just on like up public perception,
like, I think we ve seen that is possible to do good advertising anymore privacy. Preserving way right like how will you can do that remains to be seen, but like there are ways to do adds that are not as sketchy feeling as the way that like facebook and Google have done adds over time, but from a public perception standpoint, I think it's very hard to be simultaneously the privacy company and shove more personalized adds into people's ass. I think people are just like awake to what that is now and it feels like- and I think it's really hard, even if you're doing both, Those things genuinely, I dont think people will believe you anymore. Rightly evidence of your privacy being violated, is you talk to someone and then an app shows you and add? Yet? First,
the thing that you just talked about right and then it's like oh instagrams, listening to me, whether I instagram is listening to or not whether it actually just happens to be your two people in your twenties in the same place. At the same time, and of course you're talking about spring break like like, maybe the answer is like everyone's a little bit more predictable than they think right or maybe the answer is that mark Zuckerberg has a micron embedded in your body like no one really knows, but the answer is usually like you shut up at your friend's wifi network. We assume the thing a friend is searching for is the thing that you are searching for and what a coincidence, It happened talking about the thing that they were searching for right, like that's usually that have echoes apple, they're, going to claim they define tracking taking data from the user and using it somewhere else. There's no somewhere else rabble they. They like the definition of tracking design apply to data that remains in the apple ecosystem, yeah, so they're like we're, not tracking, you we're just keeping it all in house, and it never leaves here, but then the outcome is going to be personalized advertising which
other processes that aid as everywhere right only they can do it am. I stayed in this is just It will be hard rapid. You can't you the privacy company. Your promises, we never use your data and you can keep that promise, because the evidence of your data not being used is easy to see it's proving a negative in some way, but like there's, no person has ever like once you start using the data. Now you have to like let an ot you have to let some independent auditor in to prove it out. The cures or the data goes. Here's how apple uses the data, here's how the ads are generated like we understand the system and its private as they say, applicants I claim, but unless you have it but party of some kind of validating that its true you just send it back precise advertising that feels creepy yeah. I was thinking about this with all. In the context of all these, like privacy companies who are now starting to say, like we dont collector data, we don't want your data we don't want to do anything with their data like we are taking all the steps we possibly can to avoid getting it in the first place, and that was like a thing that apple
who would have started to pretty credibly say for a long time where the like? We have no use for your data, except till. I help you with these small things in syria right. So if you want to opt into that great, if not no problem there, if we don't even want to know like we have no upside to allowing our stuff to listen to you, twenty four seven, because we wouldn't want to know- and now there is an option, like there's a reason. Apple would do that, and even if it doesn't it still, it just becomes much harder to prove that you're not doing it. When you have a reason to be doing it, they work. Higher antonio garcia, Martinez, facebook to build announcements and like it is not quite what there I think they just have to prove that they don't need the giant weird. Third, party Dana brokers, to do it, and maybe they knew it down but that's not a claim. You should just trust the claim you should trust when someone else goes in investigating, tells you it's true my excellence. I think it's my turn is: do we want
what a new idea for an iphone it's iphone season. You know everybody's, like this is the year. It's a. This is a tick year. We're going to get redesigned new ideas, everything's gonna, be great, and part of me is like. Maybe we need to start treating smartphones as like a fundamentally solved problem that, like this, is what they look like. It's fine, changing but actually be more hassle than its worth having new ideas just make my battery last longer and keep making everything slightly better and I'll be happy forever. Now, there's a lot to be done to the phone right I said to put a case on mine less. I drop it in shatter a thousand dollar device and have to go get the glass on it replaced like that's a problem I shouldn't have to worry about that. I think it's like battery is obviously the biggest thing, but but the district ability of these things, really really bad and given that people are holding out a phones longer because they are not biggest heavily subsidized and they're just like more use do all the stuff we need. I wanted to but like last all three years or for years that I use it yeah, I think so
it's a big challenge. Her phones is that they actually kind of do last a long time. So I might disagree with you. Write like people hold on phones for an awful long time and the idea that only happens. His need a case is not the way having people had pudding cases on their friends like big next morning. Phones is you don't need a case and in the last three years I do know that we have a common I think people are stupid. Cases on us, phones, it'll just be me I'll, just be like in the crowd, cheering very loudly terms like calm down yeah. I think there's a bunch of stuff around how we use phones that could change and be meaningfully better like what I still and typing on a phone call. Saxon, that's a good run right like it's. it's no fun. I don't want to do it whenever appetite anything long. I start hunting for it a real keyboard, its interests, like that We haven't innovated there a long time, and maybe it flashy enough for apple to be like
we've invented a way that makes typing on this phone superior or better. It's a revolutionary input device outright, but it's just like, I think, there's a lot of the basics that we take for granted now were actually a little bit of improvement will go a long way and maybe that's it I'll. Just back to what you're saying right, Maybe that's on the order of the cameras under better and better hustle that longer, but We have settled into, most people not to use a phone. Any radical change now is a phone will irritated. More people than the excited about it. So no more radical changes are coming in that area. It feels like it's like that's when things are born. I dont know, though I like I've, been thinking about this in the context of macbooks and like laptops and general, because if you re wind or no eight or nine years, there is this moment where we that is like ok, laptops of basically looked and worked the same way for forty years. Let's blow at all Let's change some things, it's time for new ideas about laptops and we tried. I mean everything: what, if your laptop, detached what if it looked different, what if it did a spinning wheel
had three screens like we tried all these ideas and then, when it turned out, everybody wanted was just a better laptop, and so we ve come back around to like this just what a laptop does. This is how it supposed to work. It doesn't solve all of your problems, but it involves a lot of them and we should just keep making this you better in ways that are not different and like. Maybe that is just where we ve arrived smartphones. Maybe that says something about like the majority of the market, but I feel like they're still this still like heaven- idea about smart funds and part of me is maybe maybe that's not where we could be going with smartphones, like maybe we ve had the idea for smartphones and, let's just like, keep making a better and then have different ideas about other stuff yeah. She cars had sold with three wheels incentive for, in an honest, I haven't wheels like there's some basic that I think are locked, but what about like we're seeing You know everybody's got, everybody loves or lead lotta, all this is that allows for that flexibility is missing, bottom watches and and laptops, let's play with things. Let's close it flap it
shot. Is that a whole new fingers, adjusted adoration that's fair, and I will give you actually think that, like the more I talk to, people about the z flip for the more unlike. This is the future of funds, and I want a flip fund for ever and ever and like maybe that's that's big enough that might count as like agenda new idea about our funds should were accepted. The thing where sampling is like put it on an l, shape and tick selfie videos that is dad and not interesting, and not a new idea that smartphones, but I think I guess you're right that, like on the display front, there is probably some interesting stuff left to do either a general theory about the tech industry is that you can tell what's gonna happen. If you just know or displays, are going what if we had an invented elsie these there wouldn't be funds. If you invent reading all add. Some one will come along and like put them to good use, and maybe that is a phone. The turns and or maybe it's a phone get smaller or maybe it's something else entirely. We haven't seen it yet spray. The next order of real change. I odyssey sometimes for generations deep into it.
It still kind of iterative rogan have that like sick, follow Cuff to this is my dream. What's my brand, if we do that, there is a little spikes on it. Yes, so down for this made me as if I can call it a rolling around it I can't see this neil. I just started throwing money at the screen as exactly alright, let's keep going so, let's do it. Let's we're not going to get the alphabet. Let's do one more each Alex. He went first, so you get to go first. What's what's next on your list, my final question: totally real apple tv this big deal that apple wants to bake. They want it to be a tv like service streaming service. They want it to be a box, they want to be an app on the box and the phone sometime the macbook and its all the same thing like is gonna. Work is successful. I think it's like watch. The shows Your question is just why apple tv question mark my question is: why wouldn't you make me a tv right?
the game that apple is playing is one where they kind of dont have leverage if they put the screen in your house and then netflix to be on the screen. Then apple can work you have to be in our recommendation system and it's just weird that they haven't made the connection to owning the hardware. It gives us control over the software or the other way to do that, which is the thing alex and I have talked a ton about is building the best interface, which is like people are desperate for an app that it just has all the stuff. I want to watch and shows me the things I had like to watch rare, but netflix has an out there, but you you make. ap and you ship it to android, tv's and affixes like we're not going to participate in your app. You want netflix drive to survive, isn't that this other app that we control? If apple, has the hardware they get to say no like to be. On tv o s on our tv, you have to participate in universal search in enough. People will, by those tvs that netflix we'll have to feel the pain and do it. Who do you think it's True, though, we see netflix play really
hard ball in this situation. In the past netflix is not so much in a position to pay for disclosure. We have made the flip show disclosure. The disclosure block is here. We make a lot of tv. Our company makes a lot of tv shows a lot of companies, I'm just saying: netflix isn't it. This is the time to say if you want to be on our hardware which people will buy. Unlike the car right, If apple makes a tv it is. Guarantee the people run out and buy the tv they make it What would it won't stages? beg people send this renders of what you think apple, mid size cross over the most popular kind of decline in america. How it is apple, make anything it doesn't look like every other bubble on the road today right. It's a homer simpson car that live in a logo. I might done sold red you can see how apple would make a great tv that look school students
this way notwithstanding. Can you get it we just if the? How do you make a tv that doesn't just look like a tv? I got it, I got it so apple, story, glee has really really good collaboration on their tvs. I'm not yes. This will be a selling point for ninety percent of people, but the a ten percent everybody listening to this podcast will actually go out and buy this. If you like so like home, theatre, technician, dude five hundred dollars an hour grade cat inspiration out of the box. Ok, thing we have been talking about a bunch on this episode- is that apple is only interested in large markets and people who want by the tv you just described, is like only eleven people. S: disasters like selling point: that's just the selling play. I think you just say we're doing well tv they got up at the back lights, get that micro, l d s. No, they will do no one they were due to lead- and you would to be able to replace the apple tv in the back like become with the.
Tv in you. Just pull it out and put a new one in when it's time to upgrade their. the killer feature, apples and me my money, I just wanna point out the people making this relation for like twenty year straight? I have tried on it Jeanne monster, built a career on this prediction is a real thing. My Point is, unlike the car, which again I just challenge you to be like what happened. Ass to compete with is midst. His crossovers, that is them We need to make a test the model line, that is the market for cars, people like their midst ice crossovers, they sell lots of them every day. That's hard suffer differentiation. Cars is not thing that sells. Tvs are different right. Youth, apples and we're making a tv people would give their money apple tomorrow, but just what the same way that apple says it's making airports, people just like by the airport. And they assume it'll be good and the software will work and all the stuff they have the ability to ship a thing that is not at the top the technology curve, but still be likes. A sixty five in over display is now
squarely in that sweet spot right where you have set the standard algae over display with apples, software apples calibration runs. and then you can say a lot of people bought these Peacock you wanna like participate. We want to cut of all your ads. You only video on demand. We want a piece of every transaction like that Ok! Does that's roku's business, so the argument against the tv right now is people buy them often enough, but the act business for Oh who for the fire tv for everybody, is, of the transactions service business and that's what apples get out now, and so that's again. Is it a question isn't take is just a bald faced demand tenant com. it'll me a. I have ever hoped more that you're right, because I so violently disagree with the idea that apple can make a differentiated television like now. I hope we get to move it out like the things you just described like bluetooth, headphones, mostly suck most
our phones are a pain in the ass. Most things are bad when applesauce right. Like apple comes in, and as we have made a thing that works better, there is none of that with tell us that apple has any track record or potential to solve. Like me, tv, is too large for me to carry around as like not a real problem that exists. My tv is ugly as like not a real problem that exists. My tv software sex is real and apple has precisely no track record of doing it. May better. There's a thing that sucks on tv is that everybody complains about the moment they bought. They upgrade their tv apple does suck at it, though, but really good. Audio jack granted, like a thin tv that you can put on the wall and don't need a sound bar can't be done, has been done. apple was like we solved that one I'd be like ok sure and too would actually be like a compelling thing for brought that, like that's a problem that people want solved with their tvs I've home, pods
apple tv strategy will simplify home pause for free. We could see like that's it. That's hardware design challenge that apple is up to the task of doing right, integrate hers around the tv that do all that bouncy stuff, like they love spatial, audio apple ones, nothing more than for the cap. Two bridger tend to be sneaking out behind you. do they have to do, and I think I think they get trapped in. We need a market. Big enough to be worth it. So we're gonna chase health care in cars instead of what is Thing people have in their house; it could be substantially better. That then turns into transactions over time to turn into a big market like apple of Companies right now apple could do the thing where they rescue natural by saying you are actually going to a movie theater you're I buy the movie on itunes for one hundred dollars and it's gonna stream. Once on your t, n, your beautiful tv apple has a couch, right, there are studio like
You have to invent this stuff, that is risky and say it will turn into a market instead of saying here, you understand what a big number that has a tea at the end of it and we're gonna go take that one with no tracker I knew I would say, exxon, and this can't be about the tv. It does actually really, sir time our privacy conversation it's more of what will they built right there, this privacy conversation, we know they take a lot of money from Google every year to be the default search engine. The iphone we know their privacy stands, puts them in conflict. With that moment, we know, there's advertising business are, they going to build a search engine, it's the thing that they can take the most easily by saying by the Google's money and making their own search engine that a false on me. I thought they were instantly have massive share in search. They can do all kinds of things with until they kind of sex algorithms, like I never think of. As a really powerful player in the algorithm space, given how often They who will not be named activates on my wrist,
answer, my questions poorly but yeah- I didn't mean apple- can be good at whatever it wants the richest company in the world they can. They can be good at whatever they want. I think yes, and no, I think what is the answer. Your question does, I think, like spotlight is pretty clearly what apple perceived to be a search engine rightly get it searches. This when your computer, but also like it, does it as web image search going forward and that's like you can search for images in spotlight? Is that it's like not quite a stir? engine, but it's kind of a search engine, and I think what apple seems like it's gonna do is start to try to like abstract more stuff away like I don't know that building the sort of gender informational. Google search thing is all that interesting to apple, but in the sense of like can apple build all one travel products and, like an apple, take shop, share away and starts like pull some of that stuff into its other products. I think, salute the and it's pretty clear that that's it apples gonna do so. I think, like is apple by I don't know some small search engine or like try to roll its own from scratch. Maybe it's
they could, but my guess would be. It tries to just like pull a search engine into like its component parts and then just like eat them one at a time. when someone you have to build web search, maybe but also like that The commodity straight you just like by the being search index, put your stuff on top of it and lake people's sir. like who was this gets sixteenth present united states is like that's a solved problem right like you. Don't need to go reinvent the wheel. To do that. I disagree. I think you have to really yeah The recent everybody makes fun of being is because it doesn't always serve what you actually want, Google has obviously gotten really far afield as a lot harder to find what you want on Google. Nowadays it takes more work if you're, not just looking the most obvious questions on the planet and even sometimes in it takes a while. That's the problem that that happen is like. Google is so invested and selling use ass being is so invested in like now.
Doing what I needed it to do in giving me points all sorts of other junk like. I did think that just takes me where I want to go, and I dont know if apples necessarily capable of doing it like nobody's really good at it. Doctor go, is pretty close. Obviously, Google, if you like, add a bunch of like little negative signs since a don't could pinterest, don't include weird forums for the nineteen nineties like very helpful, but I don't know of goo. Apple can do that yeah. I would love it. I would love a really strong searching and but it search engines can't be like hand coding you can't just like. Have somebody pick it all and make them? Super strong, powerful search engine- that's like Google is successful. They try to do like apple music, like hand carried the internet for you. Every nation me I've impersonally return the surface of sun, and I got that was like a thing, but we can't do that like that's effectively. What a lot of websites do right like that's what the votes does like
A lot of us are about declaration, but declaration at scale. Have we see that done successful no know can apple keep its privacy branding. when they accept a ton of money from google to give yours search data to them. That's literally one. Next to it you're, a physical location or The things you search for is a pretty enormous. corpus of information at you and I basically sell it to google for iphone users right, even if he's sure to being crystal selling into microsoft, like giving it away in some massive meaningful way, and you kind and know that you're searching Google so like it's is shady, is making it to be here, but it still like the privacy, company and you're, not pretend in this thing is hard, as you could, by building on product that actually makes it more than google does not like, I think, there's there's a point at which that decision or on spotlight gets fraud, because you have to apply to give up the money, and the money is important for a lot of reasons. One its money, but to it like you know, Google
supposition, so they want to be in place. Rapids good to them. For all kinds of and they want a youtube up on your phone, but it also But why is it that to me whenever I went up on privacy and the complexity of it, the you take a bunch of money from Google and then that google around it's like weird. Yes right, it's like the first counter argument. No, I agree, I think that's right and I think apple has spent a long time hiding behind like people like google search, so we're gonna. It's fine and I don't know how Longer that works are at risk. take a break and then we're gonna come back and talk about all of our overheated most spicy, not even sure. We totally believe them takes about apple, we'll be right, back today's episode sponsor by drafting this season, draft kings wants you to get it on the actual. With the first ever entity, fantasy rain makers, football, you can collect
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hey there, I'm no o king and I'm shot romish room. We are the hosts of today explain boxes daily news, explain a pot cast and their well. You ve been here for what, like eight months now at this point, eight months, I feel like we have accomplished a lot yet we ve had fun. We ve been serious. We ve been asking some very big, important questions that you have yourself probably been asking. No l, your two parts series recently on the new rights comes to mind. For me politics. We do a lot of politics. We also do a lot of culture. You did a great episode on basque yacht forgeries, in which a former forger told us how he forged art. I looked. I consulted within also realise I can stir copy. It was very detailed, someone's gonna get arrested if you haven't given today explained a chance. Yet we implore you to do so. New episodes dropped every week day afternoon. Don't for dark! Ok,
I'm just bursting with hot takes here. So, let's, let's move on and run through some of those great before we go on, go first because my turn this? Actually, I think jobs with a lot of stuff we ve been talking about, but the first one I wrote down is apple is to popular and it's killing apple yeah back in the day when apple was like this high end thing for people who appreciated beautiful hardware, applicants are today, never wanted, because it had this like tilting group of people who cared about this and were interested and played along and now, when you're in the world, everybody uses an iphone and everybody uses an ipad end. Acts are massively popular you and up in this world, where apple can't get rid of one of its multitasking options on a mac, because there's a small all but statistically relevant people number of people who use it, and so They have a million ways to do everything and like makko s, is turning into windows, because as long as some people use something apple can't kill it, an apple is,
is too big and it's making apple not able to do anything. It's only windows, the correct comparisons. Microsoft word like the microsoft team. Will I tell you this every day, if you ask them the reason the menu bar as cluttered is because every button is ten million people that use yet you can't clean it up Some massive amount of the population that isn't? U cares about it, you down, and I that is true. I would actually put the apples popular in it's killing them in a different way, which is there so popular they often don't feel real competition so that you can do everything and like They are hardware team. So me, the things seem more beautiful than the next thing on the shelf in a careless can see it on russia and better paid out of the ports back rightly very simple things that everyone can see and I can feel the pressure their soft. where teams are more insulated than ever and I think you can see it in the software design. It doesn't matter if applesauce is ten percent easier to use anymore? But what are you switch
and I think that attitude has permeated a lot of what they do. What are you going to do? Switch is like definitely written in large letters on us on a song just like tap as they walk in every morning. Okay, Neil! What's your? What's your first hottest take my overheated take. We should say again these. These are not things that we definitely for sure believe they're, just things that exist inside of our souls that we need to get out on the microphone. I actually apples. This is over. I dunno. If I believe this at apples complacency in nice. Software will be the thing that hurts and we see end apple. It's maybe true, maybe not, but I think a lot of developers or angry apple, I think apple to work fruit people they have to buy into apples way of doing things which we If you are young and you want a job at apple like maybe you're not allowed to invent as much stuff as he would be somewhere else. Maybe interface- isn't up for grabs and, I think fundamentally, like a must get more aggressive.
Like. All giant companies and all went up like what's the best argument against anti trust action. Is that large companies and have we ve all part of their right, and I think Like I see the software, it's not just mucilage John gruber will tell you apple Software is like pretty messy. Lately it hard is beautiful. It's some of the best ever done. The sovereign like weirdly messy, my overall take is it's the software that brings them down more than any other government regulator. Anything else. It's not having the focus her eye, that honestly- and I think I was talking to the folks- it dashaway the password manager about past keys and dislike past wordless future that we're all heading into and about mobile- and they said in this very diplomatic way, that you know top is one thing, because the centres and much more open and on mobile apple and Google really other echoes ecosystems and apple particular is on very much this, like annual cadence of software releases, and because of that
We're probably not going to get any of the tools. We need to do some of this interesting stuff on mobile for at least a year, because that's just what apple does they just don't release the new stuff for twelve months and like it just got me in that, it's like it it. This is the new equivalent of like microsoft, shipping windows in a box every five years that it's like the world moves faster than this now and Not only is apple, not, you know necessarily known for its thrilling software anymore. It's just behind and it's like a running joke that android is way ahead and eventually it doesn't seem crazy to me that that would catch up to apple in a better way. Here, When I take his really overheated right, then eventually android will become so superior apple. The people have what he indeed switch, but over the long term does apples lack of discipline in its offer design catch up to, I think, setting absolute yes and I get Alex when he got my take his wireless. Is bad lake apples Obsession with wireless is bad for workers,
no. Actually, I can back this up. Also, I have a stat for you help me with it. You know how apple's like they showed carplay dergisi and I was a recant, their new car and in their base. in response to every carmaker being like now, ray apples responses, people bicarbonate, buy yeah that's, that's what are banking. It turns out that, since Our play went wireless consumer happiness, consumer satisfaction, car play has plummeted because it's not as consistent as plugging a phone in education is direct as it gets. It's a little slower, a little flaky or sometimes it doesnt connect. Sometimes bits glass carplay is a weird combo, platter, bluetooth and wi fi right like it pairs it, reboot you this, as I can do. I ask our play its, which is the connection. wifi cause. It's got a mere the screen. Other stuff right turns that there's a lot of wireless radios in the mix in your phone acts. Weird when you and people like this is my last point is on it exactly I think that's. The point is, like you see
you see with bluetooth headphones, like apple, has the best ones they still suck at least a fifth of the time wear them every day and at least once a week something happens, us at least the seventh of the time. Sorry, it's getting round with my my that's their, but there there's a lack of consistency, and at this point we have flake wires are consistent and a lot of spaces wires willpower, your phone, asked. Her still wires will connect your phone to your car more consistently and your headphones, and it's just like people care about that consistency. So maybe you care about, like that. Yes, the most overheated take at the verge is that wired connections are faster and more reliable than wireless ones. There's a hill we are going to die on. It's that fact, yatra that that's an overheated take. That's just true know: people get mad at me. All the time like when I did his harley gravure sounds like a cave.
When your house is better, people like you are in the pocket of comcast was like just wired. Connections are fast and are a lot of. It is good. We just forget the part where it's you know what connections are faster and more reliable parentheses and it turns out. Nobody really cares like with. It's just this is where we live now. Ok, my second overheated take and I like every day this becomes less overheated and more just how I feel, but I can't believe I'm starting to feel this way, which is that I think apple tv might be the best set top box on the market. Yes, I have spent a long time a long time talking shit about the apple tv, because it was bad. And expensive and apple should feel bad about itself. about two rogue who tvs that over the course of the flee. Twelve months that I have on them seem to get slower and worse every single.
day and then I turn on like my fire tv's, which seemed to get slower and worse every single day, and then I open up the apple tv, which is like too big and too expensive, and the siri remote is still stupid, but, like boy, it's fast and it just like it opens the aps when it's supposed to open the aps and unlike eyed her, I feel like a bad person that, unlike I'm gonna, use the apple tv now, but you ve got a bad person. I have not so much a shit about the apathy like. I cannot tell you know it's like home theatre makers. Home, theater makers, but home theatre, like designers and the guys you set him up and everything they actually prefer. The apple tv, like that's, the ceta box that they go to because it does I have like it's really good at doing most of the outputs and it's fast and it pairs with a bunch of their super expensive crap that none of us will be able to afford. But it's really neat, you know fireplaces that come on in sure like coordinate with whatever you're watching on how the dragons at weak. Yet it thinks it's a good box. I have got to
I've got one of my bedroom. I never trinity vienna, my bedroom, but if I do six months down the line, I don't have to be like okay, I have to find all my logins again. Okay, I have to update the app so I can watch netflix like it just does it the things are there it works. Unlike the worst thing in the world is, if you like blue note, here in the house today, I'm gonna like sit down in front of the tv and eat this dinner and watch a show and they sit down. You turn on the tv and the set top boxes x The things aren't loading, and I don't have that issue with apple- is often we very much try to be a common with Google tv family if the forever at every since reasons like most of which is letting them kid you see our the Google hum Turn on the show is like really good anything just they just we sent it to make it fast and it's like there's a part of it believes the reason, the apple tv as successful as because it just gets a draft on the operating system work that apple does for real computers and no one else has to do that work so like I refer runs now. Ass are the war
the best operating system engineers working at rogue who to do memory management, but also all those companies are now on this. Crazy downward spiral like roque, whose job is to basically figure out how to sell you? A set topics for one dollar, like that seems very roque whose job that they want to put it in your television or just make it like free thing that they hand out at fair. Like that's what that's overlooker wants me and I'm just what have you made a good one like that? an idea like what, if what, if you made a set top box, that was good, amazon makes really high powered boxes right. I mean it every at every price point from nothing to a couple like one hundred and fifty bucks. Maybe, but have you ever used like it's ugly, like amazon, Despite its really, I don't think there, one you designer and all of amazon, and they have to work on every single project. That's the only explanation for how bad across the board, amazon you eyes are just read it all. I it's not like great in answer It looks like everything else, but I do fundamentally apples,
scale gives them a huge advantage for the hardware, the tv box again, I think this for his pretty messy but two things a little ipad. It gets all. the benefits of the ipad, like engineering team and gets all the benefits of the m one engineering team and gets all the benefits of the iphone engineering team to just up It is a computer, so it's a really good computer and it doesn't all its own memory and require restart every two days, like that's weird just a weird thing. My google tv requires yep alex what he got, I think it is the most important product hardware product at apple is then epoch Erlich that, like the computer not a phone. Oh that's, really overheated. come in hot, no cause. We saw during the pandemic that people s we do care about their computers that we all have like we're. Very quietly carrying about our computers and then we all had to go by them and I think, like computers are still at the core of the heart
things, everybody's using phones, but queer, be thought that We're gonna be a great deal. How that go for you watching there came at people, don't actually like watching movies on their funds. If they dont have to they would they would prefer a computer? I don't like having to type out their school book reports and thinking of the kids here, like computers still do? A good task, they do it really really well in full. a really really important their critical. We all use every day. Could you go to computer a lot and thus their core business and from which everything else springs. I would quibble with the idea that it's their core business at this point. It should be their core business, Derek yeah. I do think I mean One of my alternate overheated I was gonna be that apple silicon investment is actually going to be the legacy of apple and might turn out to be the most important thing in ever spent money on, and I think that sort of jobs at this point to rate is that like at used for a while longer are
computers are like a central device in our lives, and this doesn't apply to everybody and doesn't apply everywhere in the world, but like the centrality of the pc is as obvious as it ever was to a lot of people right now. I think- and I think in that sense apple, like seems too fashioned itself as a computer company again for the first time in a while, which I think is kind of exciting energy. Changing everybody else like everybody's, no chasing them to some degree, intel like went from its wild me that five years ago until was so big, it could not fail it. Had this huge monopoly like net. What was it? Ninety five? Ninety nine percent of of light, computers and servers were were them and it's just collapsed because apple and aimed came along an apple in particular, is forcing ever ready to rethink the how they design these things and rethink, how operating systems work and that's awesome, and it's because of the mac I'm bringing it all back. I hears it's. Definitely her she'd, like apple
I shut down the mac line and still be as big as apple. Listen, we're not here for reality, the things we feel no, but I I agree that the feeling is important, like a reason that I will not buy a windows. Computer is because I can't text from it, reliably. As I came from a macbook, That's it. That's a really important feature to me because I spent actually more time now in my laptop than let's just feels that way right while we ve been doing this literally using my laptop, I picked up my phone three times. that's what glad to know we're keeping your attention. Thank you for being president hasn't gotten on with this tv. Take is David's mad at himself again, not on twitter, but I think fundamentally like it's where you're productive and I apples are for a long time, as you will soon be productive on your ipod you'll soon as protector. and certainly barbara. I peasant phones, but like businesses are run. Make so excel happens on your laptop and that's like
that reality is not going anywhere for anyone. I mean you get to the last and we're gonna get out here. What's your last over here to take apple will not reach its final form until it builds a tv feeling it should resume our common desire. I regret everything. Apple is not a successful company. not be counted as a success and too little that until it takes over the single device in our lives responsible for america's cultural hatch, I well we're done We had a good round its true because park. This may be the last episode ever at the voters. Gas is this turns into the Neela, spends an hour begging apple to make a tv every week they gotta do it. What am I doing here? Man there's millions of people out there running tizen in their living rooms. The squatters you doing so you're, saying apple has like a moral obligation. Not just a business thing is is like like what TIM cook says about like saving lives, you want to be the privacy company. Do you know what the single most of like intrusive whacking
privacy is like destructing device in your home. Is your television you're not wrong an apple tv with built in ad blockers? I think I may kill my model by services bottle, but, like It knows everything you're watching mostly tvs, have automatic content detection that can tell what games you're playing on your consuls like the mouth. of data that your tvs, collect and send out to data brokers is out of They do have a more obligations. It sitting right there, nigger. You heard it here. First apple will not be successful until they make a tv apple's just going to ship you, one they're gonna, make one tv just to shut you up and then to say: yeah, it's a it's an lg oled with apple tv back like this is what you wanted. we turned the wifi off on this tv and put our existing product on it and solve your problem,
we need to go, but there's an apple event coming really soon. By the time you listen to this, it's possible already happens. We're going to have a lot more information on this we're going to have a lot more to talk about on friday with all of the announcements. Thank you both. This was really fun. Alright, that's it for the virgin yesterday. Thank you. So much for listening, there is tons more coverage of everything that apple is up to and the apple event, and so much more frankly at the verse, dot com- and you can also follow all of us on twitter, Alex is Alex H, kranz Neela is reckless and I'm pierce their shows reduced by andrew marino and Liam James naughtie donovan? Is our executive producer and Brooke mentors is our editorial director of audio the verge cast is a verge production and part of the VOX media podcast network. If you have thoughts, feedback feelings, apple, hot takes or you just want to make me feel better about liking the apple tv. Again, you can always email verge cast at the verge dot, com or
Call us on the verge cast hotline at eight six, six verge one one. We are going to be doing some apple stuff on the hotline soon, so get your calls in now Alex nila, and I will be back on friday to talk about everything that happened at the event. All of our feelings, all of our reactions. Everything is going to be a big one, see them Rock'N'Roll.
Transcript generated on 2022-09-10.