Friends episode over two hundred thirty six of the way I heard at this one is called: don't fly over the story doubtful I over the story. Nobody wants to fly over the story, but people do it all the time I guessed his Selina Zito Jock. Would you think we just had won the longer conversations so far on this podcast personally, I was hanging on every word of it yet meet. No she's a fascinating person. She's a mother she's, a grandmother, She doesn't fly to the story. She drives to the story and get stories along the way as well and she's just a fascinating person. I think she's. Probably doing some of the most important work in the country. Right now, in terms of reporters, she truly goes to where the story is. She takes back roads. She dropped

all over the country she's been writing a column now for awhile called the middle of somewhere. I just love, it It did get a little indulgent from my and from time to time, because everything she says about her approach, being a journalist has, corollary and what I tried to do on dirty jobs, I didn't realize it at first to this extent, It's really amazing! This woman is like my sister quickly my older sister, because I believe she's in her early, Sir cities, she is of your hand, mother, and she is just full. piss in vinegar and she writes so well, and she writes like three big media, articles every week, I don't how she does she writes three to five articles a week she's prolific and really interesting, and when we were first talk about having her aunt em like she is you she's? U, with long hair and lady parts,

That is what she is. You guys are the same person, because you think the same way you ve gone to this. in places, you ve met the same people. You understand the parts of the country that a lot of other people just fly over What's known as the fly over country and that's you guys have in common. Well, that's why to call it don't fly over the story, but now that you say it she's with lady parts is also a pretty good title. I'm really not sure which one we should go with if you're not familiar with Sylvia. I bet you ve seen her, pops up all over the place on all sorts news programmes to talk about the articles she writes will plug it properly at the the conversation, but in case you I'll make it to the end check out her column, the middle of somewhere. It's real. Great and Chuck. Didn't she get somewhat famous for summing up. whole trump phenomenon and a pretty catchy way,

Yes, I had heard this quote somewhere in twenty sixteen some one said this to me and I went wow. That is really it's sort of just blew my mind and I later found out that it was Selena Zito who first said this, and that is the press Ex Donald Trump, literally, but not seriously hit supporters taken seriously, but not literally I thought that made so much sense and I completely got it. It just seemed like a brilliant summation of this. Situation to me anyway. Yeah I'm it feels especially Presi it now because part of what we talk about in this conversation is whatever, to our language and seriously. Is different then literally Vince three different, then literally, but it's easy to come let them at the same time, and so

I think she was right about that and I think she's right about a lot of other things too, but most I just really, enjoyed this and full disclosure. The other reason I invited her on whose, because we reached out like a year ago just Salem here at Micro works. Well, fans of your writing. We, like what you're doing and, of course she was gracious and said: look I'm very aware of what you ve done and I love your foundation and at some point I would, to write an article on it, so our sky will being what it is, is pretty Jane and we wanted to get a podcast up and Selina wanted to conduct an interview. So I just said: look: let's just do it together. So what you're about to here is a weird mix of a conversation and an interview with a terrific writer and a great reporter who also happens to be a sixty some year old grandmother whose commitment to her craft involves rising all over else, half acre

because, as you'll hear, her explain, there is no middle of nowhere. Every place is the middle of somewhere else, I am glad to say that somewhere happens to be episode to three Six of this podcast, where Selina an I solve the problems of the world in mere moments. In other words, the fly over the story, gosh, I'm sorry, you folks missed the opening, but we greeted our guest with the request to up put down what amounts to a drop cloth Ross. the producer behind shock is try make, the audio was greatest possible Selina, because we have every expectation that every out of your mouth is going to want to be captured in the highest possible fidelity. To match the interest and the it's like that you bring to our Brooklyn. I better watch my Pittsburgh acts. no lean into it.

Come on now, huh, you could be free here. He just talk to what you want to talk stock and that now see that the thing in Baltimore it was you. Why are you asking me use going to any ocean or what in Pittsburgh. It is a long time ago was more like you and gets yeas. Why Z, but we say down the same way. I'm gonna be shields going down the river now we're more down down like a Danny Ocean out One time I went Danny Osier would chalk and we got so sick. We throw open, zinc. I've got you answer you can currently be late We had a war for our close. Let me by sucking up a little bit, as I said in the intro. I honest Leap out, no four the bottom of anybody with better hair, male or female. What an extraordinary head of hair

the Zito Ego- my parents, Bob chucks Harris Great Mine's average, but yours is idle words fail me honestly, I don't even do anything I just wake up and uses ass like I am the most minimalist female ever I mean just make sure I and my lipstick, but my hair. This is so late and perhaps even more importantly, I don't think anybody's writing more important stuff than you I'm not just saying that if I had some sort of parallel career in journalism. I'd like to think I'd, be doing something really similar to what you ve been doing for the last decade or so I went and other way I'm in this crazy jacked up. business of reality, tv, but I've been to every state half a dozen times and the first time we met you probably well remember, but you were on Tucker yeah idea and I was sitting in this exact chair way,

for my life head and you came on, I think, to talk about Keystone Ass, an undergraduate together and yeah, like maybe one of the greatest self inflicted wounds ever, and I I just mentioned you and our conversation with talker because you had just been on and you reached out, and I took a deeper dive into your stuff and I thought one of these days, maybe she'd interview me and Chuck was like well screwed at one you interview her. I wait a minute. Why don't we interviewed showing that way? Like absolutely you know you, men, on my radar in my life for years because of the work that you do and I think we do a lot of the same things just indifferent mediums and I believe, through listening Do you want Can you reading you

that we share a sort of the same geographical understanding of what it means. A personal begin with roofs. People don't often understand what it means to be rooted and or have a sense of place. But alas, people's lives begin and remain in that part right there and read it to where I'm from I'm rooted to my family, I'm ready to make community and they made life choices because those roads are so strong and of day and you know I see that all across the countries not just limited to Appalache up. Would you sooner Pittsburgh is the Paris Appalachia, which is where I live, Well, wait a spread insulated like that, where the largest city in Appalachia stand without the latter, from where it starts in New York City to where it ends down in MRS Epic, None York City, but you are safe and down into Missus through so much interest in cultural connections with you.

Other well, I read something cash. I don't remember it's yours so much. I'm gonna wind up can leading things, and I want to talk about that too, you write a lot about Rochester and places. we can is not Appalachia, but there's much in common with the geography that Youtube to write about and, of course, you're really writing about people. But you can't write about the people without the geography to your point, dirty jobs. People always ask me about the dirt and the jobs, but really it was a shovel p s. That's the thing that I get from all of your writing. You love Pittsburgh. The weight shock and I love ball tower. I mean let's start there, what the hell I woke up this morning, an abridged fell by now. I think Hedberg, every injures, irrational fear happened. There. Spices did you bridges within the city limits alone. There is fifteen hundred within the county and one just

collapse this morning and it's not one of our oldest bridges. The bridges was built in nineteen, seventy and one thousand nine hundred and seventy one old enough to remember that. We don't have a lot of, but what happened by God? It snowed because it's the way to school and delay people traversing it or it could have been a lot worse. One person was hurt, but it was wonderful, is that you saw people format human chain to poor people out and get him out of there. That's that sense of rudeness and community. This is my backyard. I'm going to help people yeah. I think it's incredible and bringing it up because it my foundation, infrastructure was word, we talk, the lot about in two thousand eight back, then it sounded like I was mispronouncing something nobody was really talking about infrastructure. And today it's not really being talked about its being. To my mind, anyway, redefined before our eyes right. It's happening.

Right now and on the one hand, a bridge falling down in Pittsburgh is an incredibly complicated thing on the other had its precept. Second, Lothar, no Dynamics just tap the country on the children said: hey member me, it's all coming down right. So I'd love your thoughts on. What's going on with the infrastructure bill your thoughts on how much fun our politicians are having with the language and what that means Joe blow from Idaho, who would just like to get down the road without falling into a pottle rang. So structure as we were coming up is young people right? infrastructure was most kids. We went to high school were probably went off to get degrees in engine, hearing and all war went to trade schools to get education's on the things that support engineering. because we had great value in those types of enterprises in terms of keeping our cities healthy and function

and moving and then all of a sudden fell out of paper, and then you look at infrastructure today and the jobs associated where we don't have a lot of people to feel those jobs that support engineers and whether their camp. Engineers, mechanical engineers. We don't have a lot of people to support it because we need going to college to be. you wanna only say was someone You actually support the engineers. There's a welder. There's the plumbers: the heating in the air conditioning and all those other things that you need to make a sound structure. So you can cross the bridge. You could go into your home so that you can have a community building. You can have a church, but we said not me but cultures, we only those shots anymore, you only go to higher education. You only become this person and we d balance the importance of those jobs

how we can survive without these job, to me, that's what I kind of love about your foundation data. Can I ask you about it because I just think it's amazing spot also cause you're, even thinking about it You know it became this. Sexy thing to sell to get money from politicians, after you talk about that. I want to go back to the fact that climate change is now become infrastructure. What the holy hackers that rubber! yeah reparation, what your sexuality is, its infrastructure, no its, not its branches, roads. It's sewers. It's our wire systems which in both rural areas and city, a razor just wailing and we walked. We start talking about lint well, Sure you know this MIKE went was a one off. That's everywhere.

We have an implant is everywhere. We should stop talking about a cause, your election, to talk about it anymore, but I won't talk about your population. Let me just make one point: the chalk, real, quick because I told him a week ago, it's like if there were Dirty jobs, primmer and Micro Works handbook and somebody went out into the world of journalism. Say: ok, let's see recently right about issues through the lens of whatever that amalgam is its you, I'm gonna try and state why most of time? Unless you want to interview me and write an article seriously, which I think would be great, but I'm literally jumping out of my skin, because I've never talked to a reporter before Bruce things that I wanted to say seconds before. I said and that's what I told Tucker that night, I'm like when I sit here. Waiting to go live on any of these shows. I always put myself in the place of the person in front of me, and I was trying not just guess what they're gonna say but say

I would say to that question- it's kind of the way. I warm up every single thing. You said that night was exactly I would have said, and it both freaked me out and tickled me a little bit, not repeat myself, but that's why you're here What comes out of this conversation is an article that is of to you, That would be some high gotten so yeah firewire. So let me talk a little bit about how I approach reporting. I have been blocked. Drew out my career to never have an editor. Tell me go get this story. I want this story I have always had editors. Valued my intuition, and I don't want to think fearlessness, because that seems like ego but my willingness to just get the cargo

Don't curiosity Selina Curiosity joint out? Why not because I am afraid of lying, but because if I'm gonna go find the story, I'm not gonna fly over half the country and miss Jeanne other stories and I don T interstates. That's it Why you're just going past, you know Jackie cheese and a gas station fire you're gonna get in store you just seeing the same little a Mirage little island along every seventeen miles. I only take U S rounds for state rats only backwards, so why because if you're gonna write a story about a community or a town, you have to actually passed the counties in the towns along the way. Why well, because they tell you how busy outer exert tell you if this areas doing good doing great if its prosperous bore

It's just on its knees and that's part of the story is the journey to wherever you're going. I also don't stay in hotels. I stand then breakfast. Why? Because the first person I mean is this one: business owner and they know where all the bodies, your bearing. but they have all the right. They belong to the little chambers of commerce or the little rotary. Clubs. Are this fraternal organizations that are so important to holding the fabric of communities together? That's where I am start and it's how I'm sort of always been that's all. I have always approach covering politics in culture that's why I understood in twenty six team? Why Donald Trump? What's going on, when some because, like them circling didn't like go, I'm listen to people leading up to the election,

and understood that people didn't like the establishment in the Democrats or the Republican Party. Donald Trump didn't cause that election. He was the result of sentiments I had been writing about. Fur fifteen years. There was your book wrote the great revolt, the great revolt inside the populace coalition, reshaping american politics. If you want a blueprint of what still going on in the country. That is it and it's up because our road it because it's I didn't read, it covered a cover, but I read enough of it to once again no well said this way, the Sunday at the election. I was invited on meat. The press me a guy who cross through sewers, basically

and I'm no stranger to interviews or press but meet the press never before they reached out, and so suddenly, I'm sitting there in my ball cap dressed like I'm gonna parade or something talk until what's his name chuck taught about what happened, he asked what the hell happened and everybody else at the table is looking me as, though would not be interesting. If somebody actually knew what happened, and of course I don't know what happened, but my theory of what happened was very similar to yours, which was a big chunk of the electorate. Just didn't feel like they were being hurt at all. Right or being written to or being programmed for, the story of dirty jobs is in some ways very similar to the GEO peace cannot from you know when you had seventeen candidates on stage and what's his name rights previous me Yet when you guys were there all terrific

everybody affair. We ve got this one in that. One look at that. we have an african american gentlemen and we have a woman any, but don't look over this guy who anybody, but that guy that's the guy in the middle. Let's not to that with dirty jobs was in two thousand three. It was not the show that the network really wanted their audience to love. It just happen yeah you're, absolutely right and one of the really important stress in the block and strain Let us continue along all the people. There were interviewed where the book was the Americans are aspirational. They want to be part of something bigger than themselves. They haven't felt like that. For ten years they haven't felt like any thing was connecting them any more, which leads to the second problem, our cultural curators. So annoying

by that corporations, academia, institutions, government all of them- are located in these super zip codes, re centres of wealth and power. There's nothing wrong with that. How ever they jump know the people that they, Sir, they don't have any culture, connection. To that thing about Hoover backing players, whenever a vacuum cleaners were made an acronym higher start County Ohio, Mr Hoover lives for blocks from his factory not only did he know every single person that worked ring, and maybe not personally, but by base He also knew who his customers were. He sat in the church pew with them. Every Sunday his wife was on the school or why is that matter? He was culturally connected. So he's not gonna put a tweet out,

that alienates. Seventy percent of his customers he's just not going to do that, because there was a connection now, let's just think about the, about. Where is the Anna Bells headquarters? Park Avenue New York, Twenties Epstein. Now I have argued the NFL headquarters should be in no I'll write were the hall name is in its impact, gave a New York first everyone down their board, never case or face every Sunday we have to take out alone to pay for their tickets or season tickets, Ray they don't have man caves in their houses with all grimy sign. Footballs are terrible Taos, and so they don't know sitting in their seats and calling Capron whether you I agree with him or not decides. You say I dont want to stand for the national anthem. Now

you weren't, can't know Heil and there are some being encounter whose looking at the contractor works Vienna now you must then said. Ah young Mister Kafir Neck nine, you sighing We signed the contract that Central Dennis Day and for the national So you're gonna have to stick with that. I regard the shit that next year, that's fine but there's no one with anyone common sense on their boards very worried it. They say something like that. The day will get invited a cocktail parties or you know, weakens the hamptons rightly so they will be the same problem isn't newsrooms, most people in most major news networks. Didn't dodo. Community college I also went to a textile too, to see now that I have a beauty school great whenever it was called. So you got something

fall back on this journalism. Thing doesn't work out, in tat. Everyone has an ivy league degree. There is a mass shooting. They go to cover it all day, about his guns, No one in that newsroom has ever undergone they never known anyone whose own the gun and show right about the gun, is though it's a gene men as opposed to move people there on a gun Empowerment and only for protection, and only to be themselves, and the same goes for covering things like abortion or the March life. They can't covered them. Know, anybody like that? They don't know anybody that believes that life issue is supremely important or their religious liberty is important so when they cover people, they make the selling breaks and then no connection to the people that their covering and as we lose more and more of newspapers

and people who rely on national knows, but everything just sort of coal? and stood out. I mean about our cultural carrier. Does not really long way of saying we are disconnected from our cultural curators. That is what started this conservative populist coalition. It was not Donald Trump. He was the result of that but it was not here and each election it has ground just because he lost doesn't mean it hasn't crown. All you have to do is look at down ballot races across the country and twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, and we look at the girl them. Hispanic voters and whack voters and minority donors, and they want to be part of something bigger than themselves, and that's what's going on right now, there's a news flash! You don't need to work on Wall Street to make real money in the stock market. You This need to be disciplined and patient.

We also need to dollar cost average every month into a diversified portfolio, identifying asset allocation that makes sense for your own risk. Tolerance, avoid unnecessary fees and others the tax ramifications of every decision you make now, if you help with that well, you're, not alone, What you should do, though, before paying a fortune for of finance he'll adviser is check out, wealth, front wealth front was designed and by financial experts to help regular people construct and maintain port portfolio. That's right for them well furnished, trusted with over twenty eight billion dollars in assets in their helping. Nearly half a million people build their wealth. Today If you do your homework, which courage you to do your fine their product is so simple and so powerful. They ve got a four point. Nine five star rating in the apple app store, Four point: ninety five, not bad gotta welfare.

dotcom, slash, might learn more get your first five thousand dollars managed for free for life at wealth front. Dad come slash MIKE W E, a multi, H, F, R, o Anti Dotcom, Slash MIKE to start building your wealth to day something happen since that I just fine endlessly fascinating. That goes, beyond the kind of biased that you're talking about right and we all bring the totality, our experience to whatever the town SK at hand might be we'll get that, but the thing that ass, an AIDS me is the cognitive dissonance that occur, there's when say a newspaper realises that its readers. Don't want to read this worries they want them to read or when a producer for network,

realises, wait a second. We might want them to watch planet earth. Twenty four, seven! what what they're watching Smart Alec followed through through were making a poor job. Yet what do we do with them woody? do when you realize your customer or your constituent or your reader or your viewer is not the person you wish. They were with the taste you wish they had. Do you adapt or don't you? Do you write for that or do you write for yourself and hope, they'll catch up, which is a long way of asking you how world. Did you ever in this crazy industry. never have an editor that told you to go, get thus story in simply let you write details you ve, been writing. I think that a casket I think they chest

My intuitions, I'm not gonna write about coal mine unless I go down in the coal mine which I've done twelve hundred feet by the way this is so fascinating, but I'm sure you know that did you know that from the moment of peace of called those out of coal mines travels? well. I travelled eight miles on a man car and through the processing centre over to the coal fired power plants. the into your house and I tax twelve hours it very he's anthracite is a little different than by to address and we did both mines not to are one in Pennsylvania. And yes, We have it in our head that this is in Ancient technology that has done anything to adapt at all, and we, the dirty faces of the dirty minors, and it still nineteen forty so there has been no like guy

smacking monumental revolution and fossil fuels. Oh my god, Gonna talk about energy strap in because my guesses is we're singing out of that same hymn. Book yeah, that's absolutely true, and one of the things I press writes me also, and you guys go up about morning. We grew up in in neighborhoods that worked all white. were all black. We grew up in its neighbourhood. My eyes was seventy five percent minority show my experience, It is well aware that it was an italian black neighbourhood with the best tabooed ever via my willingness to go in the housing project and talk to people on me. I remember cash. We use it placed exchange. I was in. Heights Chicago. It was just an outer southern Guerrero in Chicago include county and I just remember just going through these projects and trying to talk to people and

sat down cry because it was so sad, the poverty, the bullet holes. It was just all the businesses were gone. I think, if my biased comes from anything, it's empathy and the deeper people, empathy for their experiences and trying to walk in there shoe which is very similar to what you do. You know you get in there and try to experience what their experiencing. So you can talk about it in an eccentric way for a day or to it so easy to fall in love with your own smack sometimes, and dirty jobs has been on the air every day. For twenty years it's become inculcated in people's minds optically and so they assume I've spent the last twenty years going from bridges to coal mines to score. Adding facilities to golf ball, retrieval operations, and that's it I go in for it. And do my level best

get out of there, and I think about what I saw and then I tried edit it together in a way that might stay on its feet. I would never understand the importance of empathy, but the quality that I'm through most for me, when I look at what you write really curiosity guy that's the cornerstone, on which the entire discovery brand was built. It such an important word because you can't be curious without being Maybe you have your curious right, you're, starting from the place of saying I dont know yes and you know, but I am keen to find out and then If you happen to be an empathetic person? Well, then, your car- and maybe people like you more than if you weren't, but to me The thing that's missing in journalism today is that slavishly ocean to carry first and foremost gas. Something has replaced it and I dont know what I feel like everybody's grandma

this, but my mother always sad, and it was far because I was literally yapping two years on one mouth. You should listen twice as much as you talk. right. I do that. I'm rarely say anything when I'm interviewing people, I just start, Ok, I just start asking questions and if you take in the surrounding you are respectful and as long as you are respectable, incurious everywhere it's got a story area Has a story Everyone story is compelling and unique to them, but also where they are and where they are from. That's what I take with me every time you know my parents would beat me if I was you know him my sixties. I carry the responsibility of my parents being on one shorter and my children and grandchildren on the other shoulder, I will always be respectful to someone

easier said: Anne and this is something that I was in the business Maybe twenty years before dirty jobs became a thing and at the hall that show it's really it it's a talk show, and I said well If we imagine that we're access Hollywood and we treat septic tanks technician like he's, Brad Pitt them were in the right direction if such as paying respect, is paying attention and so you ve interviewed so many people who are rooted in aggressive anonymity. Yes, but you try, them, as though you are sitting down with a world leader or oppressed, which you ve, also interview Brecht, viewed by talk to every president. Every presidential candidate, since what two thousand two thousand yeah a much more comfortable talking with people. Listening

technically their people Selina technically. Our past presidents have been part of H. Save me As far as I help couple exceptions brown, yeah I've interviewed a ton of people and all kinds of different places. I completely forgot where my brain was going, that no, let me just say something I do a lot as well flow, but it could have a good sport, it could have an accurate could have been canosa. You been a lot of places, that song always runs in my head to have been everywhere. Man were over every year I drive North South and EAST West costs country always on background. My favorite road is yours. Mary, it's the original. It's the Lincoln Highway, it's the first highway. There was ever in our country, it's just magical to me and I usually go, maybe like

Lebanon or fifteen straight up and down and go down to the south. It just always learn something new. I always meet a new power said one of them interesting rats and I've never done all at one time, but I really really want to do. Is U S sixty two which starts in? in New York canadian border and ends up at the Mexican. U S border the billing, now email saying those diagonally a street, but I'm being a nerd I'm kind of fascinated by route, one not far from where we grew up before ninety five, because aim the order for I hit Atlantic. There was Rwanda, you know down in our neighbourhood? It? Bela role, a Larry. Blair, fire guy and aspire to start a watch than road change names if it goes through either account- right here or escape, but I've done

one and I think, eleven eleven and also goes through Baltimore or fifteen forty. therefore worried that comes out my way that was asked Billy, the official turnpike developed by Albert Gallatin. That was our first sort of the canal and the term fight to move commerce to the Ohio country. Unnerving I'm getting too narrowly interesting and our world rude. Forty is plastic. Yes, Glasgow Highway Ass, this fascinating, how the same road has so many different name ass, depending on the little bird happens to wander through when you were talking before about Akron. I was thinking about God, like comedy frontage roads. Have you been on the frontage road, like they're, not called fronted? but it's sort of like there's the motel six and there's the super eight and then there's the

again and then there's the chile's and then there's a highway, but between the two is theirs access, drove their everywhere in America and your right there's one right in Akron and I've stayed ass, a quality in motel which, by the way, are very well play both Hauser these other. Wonderful, sperience shoe chairs in front of the mad cow and they're all lawman, ah, most quality and your own by off families multigenerational. Why interviewed the owners of the first quality in brief with Pennsylvania? Certainly you guys events with praise. What have you you're I've been through breeze would arrest tray about it, because people crap libraries learn because, You know if there's a calmer said: there's trap egg, but am I did you ever actually goes rubies with me there

four and five generational family businesses, in that little village and american businesses usually go beyond three generations. Those were stories unto themselves. They had been there since the family, on the dairy farms and they decide what the highway through it was one. small town that actually survived the turnpike, because people were forced to come off turnpike or seventy together through there How many stories began with people were forced to go somewhere where they didn't think they wanted to go because of a decision like that those frontage roads used to the highway and then like PLUTO. They were demoted yeah they lost their planetary status, but they were still there. Yeah and Akron was one of the four. Places we went to on dirty jobs in two thousand for two profile: roadkill pick robbers, while was there- and here I mean they work.

The deity, and we learned so much so quickly about what happens if those guys all call in sick for a week, especially like dear season forget it. I mean Interstate commerce stopped because the highways clog, but there was a frontage road in action That I later learned was the beta testing site for virtually every fast food restaurant known to man. If you drive on this road for about two miles you see them all. peace. I guess it's incredible and I could understand. Why anybody would put a restaurant there with so much competition. It was like the mall of fast and I learned later, that you have to be there because that's where you test your prices, that's where you test your new entrees three test. Everything

and nobody really thinks about better knows that in Akron. There's this place where every french fry ever consume discontent yeah and Akron is the perfect place to put it it's where two highways me? It's where? U S? Thirty goes through and it is both Appalachia in the great lakes made last. So you have this concentration of customers that you. Why right they're gonna tell you something two about Canosa, since I read something you wrote about it and it just really touched a chord with me chalk and I in another life sang in these society for the preservation and encouragement of barbershop quartet singing in America happened in the late seventies and early eighties, and then shock went off to be famous Broadway actor and I state is Baltimore to sing some more and screw around and figure things out

and I learned that this impossible acronym, that we both love dearly, was headquarters in Canosa and I didn't know what Canosa was, I know what it meant, but I became interested in it and before the internet. Out there I got maps and I looked at it and I read up on it and I learned a lot about this little town and then one day, in the late eightys. I went there with some these fellow singers in this group, and I got a tour of the headquarters. and I saw what looked like the frontage road in Akron, except it was called sure, and it wasn't frontage robe. It was the people it was like my feeling and what I think of when I of America. This weird sentimental amalgam that exists, probably mostly, in my mind, was William body by the people of Canosa and the fact that the barbershop or tat singing,

organization- was headquarters. There just struck me as somehow important, yet flash forward to less than a year ago. That town did look like canosa to me any more at all, and it broke my heart in a weird way to see it be used. The way it was used, talk about that for a minute if you want, because what you wrote about that, I thought was important, so canasta interesting way is feature prominently in my black because I kept ten counties in

It states that flipped from blue to read in twenty sixteen Canosa was one of them, so I spent like a month living there, writing interviewing and learning about people and that heart of people that commercial dimension, seven easy to talk about still exist, but it was hijacked during those protests, and it was heartbreaking, as you point out in connection will always stand. The people are still the same. Was content is really interesting canosa in particular it's one of those places. If you look at the census, data were people rarely boots, they always lived. There are always from there and its a legacy county, because the children in the grandchildren also always stay there. All this into transpired in Canosa, the heart and soul, a branch of it, but it didn't break it. Canosa is gonna, be ok. I was

just there they forget how long ago, ever since twenty twenty, I dont actually know what time anything it was spent in the upper right. It's always to be around three in the afternoon. Yeah again. I fear it is either the item on twenty twenty part. Three I know we're off to sell your time as such in jeopardy. Feeling this time compress for you when you right. Yes, it does, I remember in twenty. Sixteen in your post had said.

Go out there and see what's going on. This was like six weeks before the election. I said. Ok, I'm going to go and drive reap thirty from times where all the way across the country and its up everything senders tiger per with you, she was lovely we'd, never met each other. I met her and we start driving across the count There is no longer any act of this, but I think this is important. What was really interesting for me to have her with me is that shit, grew up in Beverly, hills went off to Dartmouth and have been living in Manhattan all her life, had never been Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin. You get your, nor did he had been to Europe and

her curiosity and wonder at sea in the country, and seeing eye was wrapped in twenty six king. Twenty sixty was rough on our hearts and our economies is ahead of the elections was after eight years of the recession and sort of the essentials of new politics, and she was just sort of the loan away. She like never saw this before I didn't know. This is what our country look like and she approached the laser and that was good you're, the maid Storing even more important, however, when I get back and I wait. I forget how long I was gone. Maybe two weeks I get back and I'll go to my computer immediately. I just sort of sit there and let everything that I experience come at me to warnings later I sat down and my computer and the next thing

No, it was five o clock at night and I had written. Ten thousand didn't, even though, is the evening because it did compressed started from the beginning. I record report, Since then I interviewed than I haven't transcribe. I want you to go back and look at my notes, but mostly writing in writing in writing and everything that I experienced was part of that, and I don't Remember ever doing that before, but it now I've done anything that big before, like all of the kind. Three in one story, I knew it moments before I wrote it both, but I knew at that moment I had a book in me. I could do it because I was there first time, a really noticed that I can consume these experiences and right really bass, well, this is interesting. According to the latest research, ninety percent of employers today plan

on enhancing the employee experience in twenty two, tea to another. Ninety percent of employers to day have come to the conclusion that keep quality employees is all just as difficult as finding them in the first place, and that's where it recruiter, can help zip recruiters matching technology. Helps you find the right people for your roles fast and right now You can try, Sir protruded, for free at zero. your dad com, slash row, not overstayed all this, but finding com Letty talent has never been more challenging that it is right now December four, a half million people quit their jobs, member that today eleven million jobs are open and companies are competing for talent like never before snow wonders. recruiter is the number one rated hiring site in the? U S based on key to ratings, their technology is selling active four out of five employers who post on zip, recruiter, gotta call

The candidate within the first day find the right employees for your workplace would zip recruiter Try for free at this exclude If web address zip recruited outcome, slash row, that's zip, recruiter, dotcom, slow Oro W e they work. For me, though, work for you, zip recruiter smartest went higher. Envy, your? What is it prolific ness? Your prolific Letty Prolific, see you ever noticed this. Before I write with three different places I haven't. There's no middle. Would someone had little somewhere Joe? I write daily for the Washington in salmon are weekly for the new post and also weekly for the Pittsburgh Cosponsor. They call one columns the minimal somewhere and that came from Bill Crystal who he used to be the editor of the weakest

yet he had treated. This is what I was on social media. I left because day on that side of the place a bite he treated that I feel bad for everyone from Philadelphia or New England who has to the middle of nowhere Minnesota to watch the Superbowl game, and that has got to me like that. I just said politely, but I said in my estimation, nowhere in this country is the middle of nowhere. This is America. Every soil is the middle somewhere, everyone has equal value that distorted stuck with me, the middle somewhere. How big I had ever articulated it before, but that's how I'm always view everyone that I cover

tat. Every one has value and every part of this country as an important and compelling story to tell us about who we are, and it so easy it so easy to go too far with a good thing, but so much of what we ve talked about so far is geography, but there's clear corollary with humanity and just listening to you right now, I'm reminded of what's happened to the word. I mean infrastructure, obviously, but essential essential, and for me this has been so weird because dirty jobs began. I mean, I think, that was the grandaddy of essential working shows, and I was very comfortable and very happy to talk about the fact that we were looking specifically for people who typical labored out of sight in out of mind, but did something essential and then, after the lock downs and dirty jobs gets rebooted, I'm out there and kind of defeat. lt to my normal patter, because I've been promoted

that show for a long time. It just in sit right any more, because I was beginning to think in the same way that every places the middle of somewhere every work is essential if to know but he put him or herself maybe they're immediate family. This idea dividing the workforce into those that are essential in those that aren't holy shit, the UN tended consequences of doing that are no different than to your earlier point debating one form of education at the expense of all the others right? Absolutely it just seems like, though, that's what we're doing Selina at every turn. We're not saying hey Canosa in the springtime ride and Phoenix is, Eight, it's like no! No, no phoenix is great because New York socks or Canosa is rotten because tapirs awesome yeah. It's this false.

civil and see where this false comparison. It's making me crazy. Well, Canosa is great because cheese, Kurds, My name does not love cheese, Kurds or sausage, or capacity may I call beer with all of those things in front of you. That is amazing and get I spent some time. recently in can, but also in Pennsylvania with dairy farmers and the impact that they have had. By the energy costs? Ok and people don't think about that Ray the amount of people can have what our conversation with young people. They don't think about where their food comes from. We think they think lives in the back of the supermarket and attract dropped it off, but they don't think about the inception. Their work educated about the inception. There's a farmer, that's getting up at four thirty in the morning and feeding cows in heating, making further counter war reporting

He carried their own children and their due for you thank you- have fresh milk or creed more ice, cream or cheese or whatever, better Genie I'm hungry. We don't think about these like that to me, dairy farmer is an essential worker, of course ray. We should Ella they get away cause teachers to have in really bad public relations problem, because our politicians have elevated their status and their feet things are Bob everyone else and there are many teachers, but I thought you did say: oh please stop. It displayed Not that, because you are making us the bad guy, it's politicians in unions that do not teachers.

You know I'm so torn with teachers, my mom and dad both taught public school aside, from those to the most influential figure in my life was a high school music teacher who we ve talked about a lot on this pass. I dont think pound for pound. You can come up with a more impact for vocational than that of a good and dedicated teacher, but what's happening now, I mean they're, so many parents, Selina, who are genuinely freaked out Lee concerned about? What's going on in the schools and what's not going on in the school? You know what you're happened in Virginia. You had lot to say about that. It's going to continue to resonate more and more with people who is in charge of the kids like whose really in charge who owns our kids. If such a thing at last

I saw this. You know my kids are in their authorities now, but this having with both of my kids, are three years apart, but I thought this was remarkable, so I always expanded on my kids education. Shaking them to historic places, not just reading it in a one dimensional lack. Let's go at Gettysburg, let's go to Anti, you know, let's go to Philadelphia. Legs feel like stand where these people stood I don't remember what the case was about the victims. The history teaches hearse american History teacher called me on bills. children saying you know your daughter and your son contradicted me insulted and then gave the incidents- and I said, well writing upwards, What are you taking down and couldn't happen with my daughter? It was at that moment that I understood there were things going on there. All that I thought were too one sided

Now I already intuitively had always broadened their viewpoint. Then I got a job. Well done. And now ass, you know fifteen years ago. I can't I can't imagine because I've been covering it when it's only got worse, and I think this is one of the things that I answered a fascinating about your foundation in that? We are whole promise about education is about work, ethic and hope, brambles right now about education in places of higher learning is my feelings. Nobody cares about my feelings, you know My work ethic is why I have three full time: jobs, not because I have feelings makers, valley, feelings, but that the whole thing about work asked you to this country has always been like your point of pride. Was your work at back? I'm your leg. Did my feelings get hurt. I try to stay.

In my late, but I real eyes now I dont know what my lame really truly is any more or where the parameters are. This makes chalk very nervous. And everybody else who works with me because you run a non profit. foundation. It's none of my interest to alienate everybody whereabouts, give away a million dollars next month again and we're going to try to get as many kids to apply for a work ethic scholarship as possible And it's gonna be a slug. Amazingly hard Selina to give away a million dollars. If you ask people to make a persuasive case for themselves at a time when they ve been trained, not to do that they ve been trained instead to find a way to articulate their feelings and to share their fears, and just one more

white guy shaken his face to the Heavens, tell him the kids to get off of as long as he moans about something that feels lost, but dammit something is lost. Look this just cause we're talking about it. We actually turned our sweat pledge into a work ethic curricula, my God, This is in thirty trade schools right now and my hope is to try and get it in the high schools, but obviously a person up a rope because you go through. I mean this is everything from positive attitude to delay, ground vocational to personal risk possibility. I dont know has any hope of getting into the schools. But when I look, if there's something? That's opposite? of what was going on in Virginia and so many other places,

this is it, and so it's a heck of a thing when work ethic becomes the enemy ray. It's like work ethic and interest. picture and essential- and so many other terms they just don't mean what I used to think they meant and it is a God. Yours now critical you're, like you know, like I'm, a white guy like who's gonna, listen actually Lastly, my experiences in interviewing people across a multiple ethnicities This'Ll, still an american value on board. Can it Lee, you can't talk, now that you can create about it. You know I'm alright, You can't answer here be aspiration. You care, however, if you gotta communities and the most gradual level, no matter a white asian black Hispanic. There are here

turns out there. That is, has value to them and they want that for their children and they want that for their grandchildren because they believe that's the tenet of being not just six. ass well, but also compensate about yourself and make you a better member of the community. So how then do we make a persuasive case for work ethic if we're not going to preach about it or lecture about it or even talk of it in firms of its inherent aspiration. I think dirty jobs did a better example of that simply by knowing it, then really anything I've done since I just one there. A writer you eager fasts advocates are the people that have gone through it. They happen.

a story to tell, but also you need to point people in the communities in the black community in the white suburban communities in their hispanic community. To be your advocate, to talk about it, to the schools to be on the scoreboard that how you make that persuasive argument This is where Emily get political for just a second, but not pick a sigh, but this is important, I think, to understand in the cultural shift, with shift with voters the demo party has wildly misunderstood hispanic voters. They have thought of them, as hispanic herbs and not as Americans, they have approached them as this entity when they see them- sounds as shoulder to shoulder with everybody else, and that has turn off completely, but also one of the top small business owners of groups in the.

Country are hispanic. Some blacks, Small businesses are people that didn't go to college and those who live in New York City, a Manhattan but stay in their community and have h backtracks in their suburban Baltimore backyards. Me that's what I see that to your advocates, are: are those parents because they want their community? is to be made up of a lot of people just like now. Who value were because that makes community safer and makes community stronger and mix the Frederick stronger between. Other. But to your point, when you say communities just like them, what I hear is a computer. If people who share an idea and a path to something that looks like prosperity, ass, a path that's paved with delay, grass the personal responsibility, right and so forth and so forth, but today

when you say that it immediately goes to well. This is a group of people who look like me now who came from the same place I worry, and I know this is almost hackneyed now to point out that when we talk about seniority and when we talk about which seems to be in the headlines now day after day after day after day, I just can't for the life of me. Imagine what doktor king would say if he were here today and we look, anybody who is going to argue persuasively or genuinely about the importance of an integrated, diverse society has to favour a color blind nation. Yes, you should have to that's the goal of all of this is to get to the point. where nobody gives a damn right where you're from who you worshipper what you look like, and it just feels too like we're in opposite Phil, we're so folk. now on how we look.

And not at all, looking or the similarities in how we what we believe to be important regarding work. That's what I meant. ask you before when I say how do you make a case for work ethic? I mean how do you make a case for work ethic when there is such a persuasive case on the other side being made for the opposite? Well, you make a bad example saying- and this is my experience, that my experiences- we are much more- the country that you just talked about because rooted in wanting a community to be prosperous and have a range of prosperity and to work to get it. pull up to Mcdonald's and expect to be delivered your job and delivered with every. While we were more than has been my experience. How Amber these are not the people. These are not the communities that had the men about Me no sort of the problem. When I talk about our,

cultural curators and I say, corporations and academia The government was also big tack, if I had my druthers, if someone said how do we fix the world's Lena, like I gotta, take every single major corporations and get the hell out of a super state had put it Columbus put it in Akron. Put it in EAST Liverpool. Oh I've put it down in West Virginia. Have these decision makers immersed in a culture that doesn't echo everything that they think that's my big wish list, Michael other branch, I wrote a story ones that I thought was brilliant. Where he said take. The Republican National Committee and all the apple that committees energy and see and locate him in Columbus. Ohio because their surrounded by everyone did things just like that, including the Republicans.

at the moment, is they all think alike? They have forgotten where they came from or they never came from places like pencil, Turkey. My goodness. Nobody in Washington DC has ever not one. Both in Washington DC is decided, a presidential election, the they haven't Pennsylvania and they have in Ohio which, which figured figured it out. If a frontage road in Akron can function as a reliable indicator of what people truly want view to be the existence of every imaginable fast food restaurant. Ever then, why? Wouldn't that work they didn't go to Akron by accident. You don't go to D C New York, a layer, San Francisco to figure out what the country really wants. You go to act, react you go to the middle of somewhere, you do exactly what you ve been doing.

and maybe to some extent this whole forest Gump Ian adventure called dirty jobs really did the same thing that in slightly different way, also read the last road I was. I was in Montana, along the Yellowstone River and I went live fishing Watching Yellowstone by the way, are you, oh MIKE, I just said the Funniest conversation with my mother, whose birthdays today, by the, why have you heard me mom real time? Thank you shall love that she hates violence. She abortion almost as much as she detests, Stew, ITALY, but my dad, whose eighty nine he can't get enough he's better as far away from green lighting, up snuff movie and Self Haven Luckless he loves Yellowstone,

because you're a smaller apartment. Now my mom has no choice. You know we step, so it's so loud. She's gonna hear it no matter where she sitting so they all Michael. I might more wipe it further guarantees sitting there watching Yellowstone and she's. Just I just can't believe all this death and mayhem, but the count Three sides sure is beautiful way to make lemonade bag on is watching the illicit own Virginia graffiti. But if you press her she's like Alan, that Beth I mean my goodness what a slut I saved my mom. You know she's an english actress. She is how well sir let's see totally into it, but it's a soap opera with guns, guy great scenery in eighteen, eighty, three! you watch that yet I have also Tyler Sheridan and he's got what they fill and what's his name, TIM, a girl, yes

son was just he's driving across the country right now, he lives in Glenn. What's friends, Colorado he's driving home? but he made me watch the ozarks. What's that Oh ok, that's like me. Ninety ninety thank the internet should be inner webs her face. I got an idea. Seventy say we're going to the spheres, but only one there's only one ozarks I also say that Ukraine, and now you know, You can get me that also is angular Selina. It's not ozarks, it's just ozone, look. If I were your editor and you wrote a story called the ozarks about a new tv shall be like look. I want you go get the story you wanna get, but am I have to insist. We smell the title right,

deeming person in some love, Jason pavements. Asked work so far. Yes, not so good, just watch the latest? Why maybe not the latest one, but I'm in the latest season and Ruth Langmore is just it's her show she's running away with it and how sure her. Forgive me for but he was listening, who hasn't seen ozark for those, but there character called Ruth Langmore and man? Is she your p or what she saw them sure what she is. Greed binge watched. It and I need you to go, get communion or something after that

Why are you already learned all I'm going on there? But yet I couldn't stop blocking at what was the gets. Rod is a dopey Ilusha Sweden's like stop watching it rejects about here's, my theory on Ozark and Ruth in particular. Never The drugs never mind the murder, never mind all of the many many many curious and salacious choices. what you have in Ruth, and even Darlene the older, crazy woman whose boiler, alert killed her husband these be, both are really really easy to put into one dimensional box that confirms everything You think you know about Appalachian or Latcha. Ozarks were ozark fill in the blank, but there can the verse smart. They are intuitive their intelligence. and all that stuff simmers Do the stereotype yeah right- and it's

true of dirty jobs as well anyway, Theory I'm drawn to good scripted programme ceremony in Diameter, David Mammy screen. Writing right. It's like Glengarry Glenn Ross for it's just if ever watchful, Glenn roster, is not really anybody redeeming in that movie either how ever there very three dimensional and the dialogue is compelling and you just can't stop. We wonder what happens even though you really don't like anybody there now with Baldwin's breastwork Jack lemons, best work, Kevin Spacey he's, never been better. Remember ABC. is behaving always be closing here, maybe mammoths best that's an amazing film and everybody should watch and I'm not sure, there's better advice, whether you're a writer or, however, I am, or whatever always be, closing

do you think we're all salesman. We are, if we think about ourselves that way: which always be our best salesmen. We all have something about you talk about to bring to a conversation to bring into someone's life. It doesn't matter what you do with it C p. I share your out milk and account for thirty in the morning. You have something really important to talk about, because all of us contribute to everything that we experience, and I think we need to do more at talking about that with value, whether them whining about We are talking about our feelings. I mean I don't make my parents were like it all that much will be like while I be why you're a room for goodness sayings away the buyer feel like I'll give you something I feel you gonna feel some back my hand. Yes something else in common. I just thought about this. When I was in high school, I was in the choir

and I am a member of the who's Lou of American, talented students, class and ninety seven. Seven. Oh wow, high cotton, we're gonna choir, would you say I'll tell em tell as they say, ran down a crack. Things are now. Sir that's so awesome back to the salesman thing now, because it matters a lot to me more than I thought it would because my home your started. Yeah. I was selling magazines over the telephone in college to pay for it and so Gary Glenn Ross it close to home death of a salesman it close to home. my first job in tv was on Cuba, see for three years selling crap the middle of the night- and so today that doesn't seem to have a lot in common with what I'm doing, but for the fact that

we relies on persuasion and you need to pay. Wade, your readers, I need to persuade my viewers, certainly from a foundational stamp its persuasion Wanna one all day every day. I think what you said before is really important and worth repeating in a slightly different way, somehow or another. But when people see themselves as salesman, I think maybe they take. A new responsibility for merely expressing their feelings, but for making a case making it as for the middle of somewhere near making the case for a dirty job, making the case for a candidate we're all in the business of making cases. Americans have this great tradition of good story telling that we ve sort of lost not completely lost, but it sort of faded behind needed, immediate ratification of the internet, the inner webs, but you bring up a really valuable point in you're, a great story, teller that is at

hard to believe are so that sales person in you is your ability to tell a good story gets. Put. I remember was so Harvard asked me to teach, and I thought thing is you don't fuck around thing so and then they asked me and I said ok, but if I can take my students out, like out of the House a Harvard immerse them in two different parts of the country that they would never seen before I wonder what they were drinking, but they let me deal, and I took these kids to Sweden towns, young town. I forget the other towns, but we didn't why we have to the back road. We all went in this big bay and together, I hadn't awake anywhere from seventeen to thirty students, the time and they had a live in the bed and breakfast, but they worked industry There. They went to the PS, Bactrian West

Virginia Davis, beautiful, powerful plates that you see and it's the last pottery in this country by the way where mercury is made in America, Mass a big pottery, but they also went to church. They went out with police officers and I took them to a gun range, None of them had ever been, even where in like a hundred yards of a gun. These kids were really willing and interested. I mean these are the best and brightest right and if they're gonna be running thing in this country, you know they were really interested in having a different experience. and not only did they learn to shoot a pistol one of them. Sullen a are sitting in the corner. Now I can we try that They understood what it's like. You target practice and they had a great

instructor former military guy spent like six hours with them each place. I took those kids each experience of those kids had the people that talk to them and they were just regular. People really were their best salesman and sales women, really taught these kids, not me, standing in front of a holiday and lecturing down that people who would normally have interaction like that were selling their wives, when their job sterling there. Sperience selling going to church, and I think that we do you're not well, and we should do more of that to bring back where we started it wouldn't have happened without geography you had to go to the gun, rank you had to go to the place. there's a scene in death of a salesman which I'm sure you're familiar with,

but it's not a scene that gets quoted a lotta reference. The lot, but it's one of my favorite moments were Willie is talking to his. I think it's his uncle Ben and very successful man and, of course, Willie's. Not so successful in struggling He can't get out of his own geography. Take it out of his own way. Ass. An just so mystified by the six ass of Ben. He says to him: how did you do it? How did you make your money and how did you build your empire had succeed and his answer was. I into the jungle with nothing, and I came out a rich man. I always think like what does it feel like to be a kid today and have no sense of how you can be free of your college long,

and on the road to prosperity. So many people are surrounded by so many versions of Willie's uncle who just say in I. I went into the jungle with nothing and I came out rich and the whole in just feel sedan, mysterious and unattainable and the point is you have to go into the jungle ass, You have to go to the middle of somewhere. Yes, you ve gotta, get out of here comfort zone and you ve done, Well, you have to be willing to take a risk. Miss Daniels he's the president or whatever. Oh, the governor of India Indiana, he's now that President Prodi, I love that guy she gave us. telling Kurtzman speech this past year, twenty twenty one to his students about taking risk, I went out and the interviewed him about it, because I thought it was just

is so simple, yet so powerful, there's a segment of society that wants to train our children from the very beginning not to take any risks. Well, my dad used to say you can't get to third, basically don't take your foot off second, which ensuring everybody's dad told them that as well, but it True, you gonna, take a rest. You might get out you might not. might score your tea might win. Because of you and your team. I hate you because of you. Gotta be able to take that risk and we need to instil that value in our students we're doing in this back to the cultural curators but all our cultural curators or trying to certain nullify risk out of our lives. Don't do anything that makes you feel unsafe. Don't do anything that hurt your feelings, don't interact with people,

better different with you. You literally needed dictionary to understand the word. Your lot to say not say these guys any delay carrying around with you for making our kids had cases and it better be a very very up to date. canary because, as we have said, the definition of everything is changing every week I mean Did you see that acts now? Those are its the ozarks now they're down to just one Ozark Mary Webster officially change the definition of anti backs to those oppose mandates that, to me, is one of the most incredible shifts ever gap it Miriam extra says it is you know, there's all generation, Kendra, they're, gonna, look stuff up. They're gonna, look up infrastructure.

They're gonna look up essential, they're gonna, look up anti backs its changing in front of our face, an iron to the people. There are changing, and this is why our political parties have changed. It is forcing people more rank were even if it's not their natural in Croatia, because it's in our DNA may not seem like it. If you go on the inner webs, twitters. Why it's? You know to be sceptical of all things bag- and I see this across the country- people quietly just pushing back really. Does Miriam Webster really say that about anti? Yes, that's been the most recent official updating of what that term.

means. I think language is so important that education is such a huge topic and if you put the word higher in front of the word, education. Then you can't help implicitly suggest that there are formed that are lower and what You tell somebody that right, yeah guess what Europe effect for the lower education. We been imagining for you. Ok, you gonna be great. I wouldn't call it lower, but we call it alternative and so into that bucket goes trade school and community colleges and so forth. and so on. So I I know you see this is a writer day after day, but I swear to God. Maybe we start to land the plane? I gotta been talking for an hour and twenty three minutes. I got the time in the world, but this could really go on forever, but your take on. Let's go Brandon happen. Around the same time as I can

Might I swear to God another another? It has something to do just to sum up. Selina and I both in our own way said the that expression not merely code for saying, F Joe via its something much bigger, and it has to do with our birds being redefined in front of us even more, I think it has to do with the feeling. So many people have, when they are look, it's something and they can see with their own eyes, and there being told that there seeing what they're looking at it makes you he's too many. That's what let's go branding exactly right and I talk to people or across the country about this. It absolutely right by the way, if you try to cross Pennsylvania,

fines are everywhere people think it one way or the other thing that's interesting to me. Is he still see thirteen years before the men and women, the lesser wise in Afghanistan we still see thirteen years of bars or thirteen chairs in towns. Where's these things have left an imprint on one of the things. I think that these report, I mean they were so like the Heather panties in a bunch of this. Are we not allowed to have a sense of humor? Also like I wanted to add that on top of it it's because these people, these people, these people, governments. So seriously lake of government is true, Trade is the most important thing. How however, even the least in the middle of software governments nothing to be sceptical, love. So much Kate allow better like what men and women in the Sixtys and Seventys were we grew up where it was lying middle finger to be established,

Why haven't you now, like Neil Young yeah to its opposite will the world how Neil Young becomes the guy who says it's me or Joe Rogan, right hat, how in the world does? If you had told me a year ago that the four dead and Ohio guy. If you told me that that dude would be the one calling for a measure of censorship. I just don't know, How much further goes until it truly goes. Splat I mean mind boggling, absolutely mind boggling, I don't know what happened to the Sixtys and Seventys revolutionaries They got power power, they got power, it turns out there if worse than the ones before, when all is it after you got power and you sold out, but you are wherever you said. You were,

the new boss, just like the old boss is. Why do you say like me, I know it's Roger adultery four Neil young it it matter. If Robert Malone, who I think was the guest and upset, Neil Young on the Rogan podcast yell. We ought to have conversation about whether it was accurate or inaccurate, but we're not we're having conversation as to whether or not it should even exist. Are we allowed to talk about this and of all people? four NEO young to say now. I don't think we should. I mean why it's possessor of Superman Ray you remember. Zira Superman. When we were kids, you have just one big task that's when all these cultural curators live. They live an alternative universe.

A lot of them are driven, not new young. I saw a lot of people. Tweet goes, you know young, so you have grown by they just lost touch with the common person would be every day per cent and feel like the kid in that Christian Andersen, the emperor's new clothes to try and some up the general feeling that I've gotten over the years from just being a lot of the time You go and just talking irregular people. It's this growing, idea that that's who they are their standing there and there looking at the emperor and he's naked.

Everybody around them is saying gosh what a handsome outfit you just look great. It takes a kid. It takes a kid to finally get the crowd. The go! Oh yeah! Well, I guess you yeah. Absolutely. When I used to me on Twitter, asked on insecure pretty pictures by what I used to be on twitter. I can remember feeling has far away. I left I felt like I was struggling to different dimensions. The one were reopen, well there and then the one where twitter lives the position that most of the people and of great Pew Research study. That shows that this is true. Then it's mostly people then live in wealth and power that have the most. Followers and spend most of their time there- and I just can't remember thinking well, I need to get off of this place, because everything I read on here has like nothing to do with anybody. I've ever talked to,

reality and its people repeating the same story back and forth. Rather than actually being curious to explore what the story reverie is. I think that's what what you're doing is so important, not just because you're doing it well, but because does your stories exist in places like the examiner which can get out all over the place? You're not just preaching to the choir Honestly, it's the same reason. I agreed to put dirty jobs back on after a ten year. Hiatus it reaches people are who could otherwise not reach Do you worry that we're going to have a twitter for every specific group and we're going to lose any kind of diversity in our social platforms? If we haven't already that's Wonderingly began,

Those who I find this lake be different people and exchange ideas in it was interesting right for the first couple of years, but if you start to say I mean I I had people try to cancel me on. Twitter was an absolutely horrible. and the worst part was they were given, Name they were anonymous if those kinds of antics continue. you do what we're gonna be all segmented. How ever what gives me great heart is the amount of people that don't use twitter benches jobs. They live their lives, they do the best they can in their communities and they have social fabric that are outside of twitter. Twitter is a real. It is a social fabric that base on rumour, whereas when you're interacting with someone face to face, you have to conduct yourself in a much more honest and authentic way,

based on the amount of people that use twitter, you know you would think it be talking order. Well, I saw it where, where relevant, where dead, it was like over the whole country, is on twitter. This much country is on twitter and most of them live in Washington, DC, New York or Silicon Valley. If the movie mean girls were a social platform, would be twitter. The thing that I can't get over, is serious journalists doing there best serious journalist impersonation will start a news report with and so and so had a tweet. Today we ve got to it, but it's such ass. but word I equated to like a farce Right is like a Ford. And sometimes can be really loud and noisy and everybody's huddle snap around as if to say who funded and some

I'm still make any sound at all, but they still think up the room. Right and people are looking around going. I of somebody must have tweeted, but in the end it's just a thing that everybody can do everybody does do it seems like, but really I wish we didn't tweet so The same way, which we find it a little less, I wish you'd never started that analogy. Sorry, man, I'm just trying to learn to play at you. Journalists have become lazy. It's really. This is my boggling today, not only do they not pick up the phone call like a politician, they'll be like new. You me your answer and know: can you text your question? some of the other guy who's, its agriculture secretary in Pennsylvania. All you have to send your questions. So, like not sending my questions you never guy run or woman run for president. Why did you

Secretary of agriculture? Are you crazy I tol me every thing about what I profession accepts as an interview. Gino There's, like thirty two people, they're gonna, sergeant message it before you get back in your email, and you know they didn't say it. I don't know If you have enough information The last ninety minutes to write an article, but what I said to chalk was look there. nothing, I would say, on this podcast under any circle, answers that I wouldn't say to a reporter on the record so I don't know why we don't do this more often, if you're going to be accessible. If you're going to give an interview, the best their views. I've ever had are no different than the best conversations I've ever had. The best articles, I've ever read articles that capture the converse

absolutely when I get home after doing give several by the way, I'm like always on the road car breaks. Sometimes the flat tire. I've had some really interesting experiences. When I how I have hours and hours and hours and hours of transcripts and hey because I have this really meaningful and it helps me tell their story better show up. My has does that. I think I think that your pockets is great story telling I always loved. Listen to it. Honestly, I'm gonna be with a fan. Go right now, like really throughout that I'm here, because I have always thought of use leg. My brother like doing something else, I dont understand I've had people from water, authorities, not just the secretary now or culture, tell me where you can have the email. Your questions like this, I'm having some that's my problem with journalism. Today they have accepted.

a massage quote by thirty to twenty four year olds answer from a secretary of Agriculture in Pennsylvania ran all I was gonna- ask them about was energy by the way they were thirty feet. For me in the farm, show complex, come and the other problem with journalism. Is they don't leave? duly bit ly into a place. This is the thing I have to say this cuz. This was so important to me in twenty. Sixteen If you remember the unusual reports about the railings for travel, there were like fire. in all these crazy people were there. When I went to my boss as I do you, ok, look, I'm fine, it wasn't Akron our somewhere. I tremble county. It was like over there in Ohio, I'm saying over their cause. I live in Pennsylvania right there, my ass I remember I did my saying I drove back

RO, they stayed the bed breakfast. I got there. A couple days ahead of time got to know. Community went to high school football came, went to charge when pulling like to get to know the community, and then I went should be banned and I like six hours early ass like this, is like a game Matthew cancer beach ball going across the crowd, people, but their grandmother. They brought their kids, they buy their body, they brought their pulling chair. This is so frank scenarios have been happy and I got the depressing area and in the press coms and they come in Abbas. Ok, they got to the boss from a plane. They got to the plane from wash rosy. They missed all that stuff that I saw in between and they get seven minutes early and your intuition. As a rapporteur like what stands out so a tramp rally while whose dressed in thirty two american flag who

as a confederate black on and then I would watch the stories and stories would be like they would all have literally the same story. There would pick out the same or weird people Item twenty nine thousand industry, It will be about those war where people and they mischief everything else that happened with the people alone. Now also pick up three things that trap would say that was, you know, abandoned their centre. EL. It is, however, missing him talking about work ethic Wemyss, you in talk about economic opportunity, and I just was struck by there's so much value you have lost in German understand what's happening because you think everyone is an odd ball and by God this can't be happening to our country, had to listen to those people. It was never about him. It was always about down. It was always about their community

and it is only getting larger. If you go out right now, they would understand that it's always getting larger. They was baffled by what was happening, their as Willie Lohmann was ass, I his uncles success. All they heard was went into the jungle with nothing and came out a rich man. I went to a trump All in all I saw was a guy in a confederate flag in this one, juggling pies and so forth, and so on its the damn a blind man, grabs elephant by the tusk and reasonably conclude He's hanging onto an ivory monument, you grab it by the tail. You think it's something else altogether. We just have a sense of the animal you down. That, I think, is the problem with my profession. It's what is contributed to argue connect with the media. The other problem is.

you mean we have so many media desert out there. So many places where there is no newspaper, you can go in place in the presence, Countrywards work counties that don't have local news and if you dont, have someone in a local newsreel, that's either covering things or doing investigative work, someone it sits and obtain pew issue on Sunday Somebody coaches, your kids, willowy, whose parents grew up in a neighbour with that local journalism is missing and it's part of our problem with jobs. So I tried it covers things like I'm, a local will eat you when a hell of a job seriously studies show that nobody listens. Anything after an hour and forty one minutes and that's where our right now

really. I would like to talk to you for another hour, but seriously, are you gonna write something I'll based on this guy was to swiftly from this conversation I want to talk to somebody. Kids are really my maybe go down and go and meet saw them before you got your scholarship dry awesome by Ok, I think those stories are really compelling because nothing tell junior storing better than someone whose experience that this has taken that journey, not that your mood not moving MIKE. You're very moving man, even with your father twitters. Just like you quite fire. I have enough here to write a great story, but what even is more important story is for young people that have come up through an up and found themselves in contributing to making us better place to live

do we have fourteen hundred examples of a hook up with whatever you need. I propose we just post this entire converse, asian, exactly as it is. If, for no other reason, give listeners a chance to see, like we said, there's a difference, in an interview, a conversation, a story, breaking news. All these things right. I believe that the best stories in the best writer have conversations like this all of the time and so yeah. You don't make me sounds to me would you part me for one? Second, if you want to read a very good writer, you should go to Selina Zito dot com. It will link to you have suffered the Washington examiner faster, that post and the New York Polio past sign up for my emails, their free there under not fattening no the entire time. I talk to you, I'm gonna have to go out and radio,

driveway for the ninth time in three guys the struggle is during this conversation on my computer to alerts of com, and I assume it's about the bridge in Pittsburgh. Talking about people come. together forming human chains so having their neighbours, I mean how weird to talk about that and then to see a news alert pop up with the same thing: chuckle laugh the title. for these things usually come at the very end of it, but somewhere between the death of a salesman in this idea of a human bridge being used to save people during the collapse of a mechanical one. There's our theme chuck, that's how Yolanda Plain Bridge in Pittsburgh a bridge

too far. I think I would go a conversation about the middle of somewhere or we just call it the middle of somewhere and just for real just keep talking. We never need to come up with a terror because it never end it really. Never that's Rogan three and a half hours the other day. That's crazy! I try and listen what he does is very difficult to set three and a half hours aside. Listen at a double speed, now gathered. you guys knowing showed the Bible Cornea, there's. No still, no, there's no zero, just snowfield Ah, I see here we are the clouds from which the snowflakes fell. Sadly, That's a good loudly that so true I'll, try snowflakes to say now. I believe it

Again, your hair is fantastic second, only to your rapier wit and your commitment to your chosen field. So thank you thanks guys