Agri body cept? So two hundred forty of the way I heard it this, what is called the crushing certainty of Scientology die? A Czech does not entirely approve. What is your problem with my title? I just what does it mean you're saying the word Scientology and title which is going to be very strange. Well, it's either gonna turn some people off or make some people curious. And frankly, I fully expect it'll do both. The title is it'll be made self evident, as the titles always are. Clearly I am saying, is that those who practise Scientology are afflicted with a crushing certainty that they are correct and, of course, many religions. I think, have a crushing certainty associated with them, but with Scientology it's different.

Would you agree that I know in general that you are not a big fan of crushing certainty to begin with? No, because you do like to look at all angles, which I think is really a good quality, but its very difficult to find a favourable angle. Procyon tolerate. Yes, it's easy to find it verbal angle on Scientology. If you enter the church and ask the adherence to explain it, they'll love it. But if you're looking objective leave at this thing called Scientology man, it's something fancy the page on Facebook might remember. Post seven years ago I put up about today's guest, which is our mutual friend Spanky Taylor. I wrote about Spanky because she escaped the clutches of this cult there I sat at a color chuck good for you. That's what I believe scientists.

Jesus. I wrote this post cause. I was so proud of her she's featured in a documentary by a guy called Alex Givney documentaries called going clear, Scientology the prison of belief. I think, as the apparition of only if yes and if I could just say that, when this film debuted in LOS Angeles day, Butte originally in Sundance and Spanky, saw it there, but when she went to go see it here in allay, I actually went with her, and you said something just now that I feel so strongly, and that is, I can't believe how proud I am of her and what she's done in the witness that she's born to this cult there I said it too. I think she still got a little ptsd from it. Listening to her talk, she so grateful to be out. She has so much empathy for her friends who didn't make

out, and she has so much concern for people who are still being pulled into this thing. I agree, I think, which did a super. Rages. Spanky came into my life years earlier when I was completely overwhelmed happily overwhelmed with letters from fans. Dirty jobs had blown up really blown up back in two thousand five- and I just couldn't deal- I could not respond, everybody, I was signing photos in writing, letters and so forth, and she, provides a service to a lot of movie stars and she took me on and really allow me to respond to people who are otherwise wouldn't be able to respond to that's how I met

banking Taylor, and then I learned that she had escaped Scientology and I was just so interested in her story because, as you know, I'm interested in why people believe anything they believe and where their certainty comes, and what they put their faith in, and when I saw this documentary chuck, it checked all those boxes, It also had another one for me that really pissed me off and that is the tax exempt status. Ontology enjoys today for the life of me. I just can't believe the IRS awarded it and if there's any public service that can be accomplished by talking about this on the pod cast, I hope it just brings that egregious

truth to light for more people it so galling, and it's so annoying and Spanky makes that point in the interview where that's the thing that irritates her: it's our tax money, that's helping to fund this organisation and that this is a bridge too far, and let me tell you that I became friends with Spanky before I knew she was in Scientology and when I read the book by Lawrence Right, I was shocked. I had no idea of this story, this part of her life and when I went with her to the screening I just couldn't have been more proud of her lover, dash he's a dear friend and and really just one of the bravest people. I know, and humble very humble shows that off, as you know, I was conned once upon a time swindled by a friend I wrote about it in the book lost every penny. I had it's very humbling to have that happen to you and difficult to talk about it, but once you start

again to realise these kinds of cults. These kinds of cons, honestly It's a con. It's a long con written by a charlatan named l, DOT Ron Hubbard. I know I'm poking the bear. I know I'm going to get some pushback for this. I did seven years ago. I honestly don't care it's not mandatory folks, but you should watch this documentary. Ideally before you listen to this conversation, but you don't have to. I just watched it on Youtube again this morning. I hope everybody Country watches it cause you're gonna, see Tom Cruise say some things that you are simply not going to believe you are gone. To hear a number of stories from a number of people who have escaped the church. And if you keep listening to this,

Podcast you'll hear one of those stories from one of the people, the Chuck and I happen to know. I wanted to do this because I just hate a bully, amen, brother. I just hate a bully, a thug, a creep and when those people get together when bullies get together, you gotta mob or something worse and that's bad all in and of itself, but when that my can somehow convince the United States government to grant a tax exempt status. You're gonna be appalled when you hear what speed he has to say she worked as a slave for years literally,

virtually no money heart of a huge giant labour force that works essentially for free lives in squalor and you'll, hear about this church with its many congregants who donate hundreds of millions of dollars billions to this day, and they don't. A penny attacks and, in my view, it's a hell of a thing. So that's why I wanted to have her on thanks for making it happen Chuck. I think it's a difficult conversation to listen to at times, because if you put yourself in her place, it really is chilling and it's kind of a miracle she got out and it makes it the stranger because speck he has such an unusual voice idle of course we had our normal technical drama as well, but in spite of all of that, it's a conversation worth listening to the crushing certainty of Scientology

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percent of surveyed businesses have reported increased visibility and control after upgrading to net sweet. You should too at the nets we dotcom slash, might for a special one of a kind financing offer that's nets. We dad Gunflash MIKE nets. We dug gum, slash MIKE orders. in another way, Sweetheart MIKE we like to count down from six just to build the drama. Spanking lotta people go from three. Occasionally you here, five but Chuck likes to start with the number six

We don't know why it's an even number, which is good, threes, an odd number and I dont like on wings. You look terrific, it's nice to see you again. Wonderful and she'll. Make really gonna feel is this your office, your home or is it storm of an office? Yes, what's happening outside transitioning to a different home, I'm downsizing, because I was living up on a hell. It's just, my house as I got older and my Amis becomes more challenging, I'm losing some physical mobility, so I wanted to downsize and get Sunday more manageable for myself. How's business: are you still doing what you ve always done? Something different day our Jessica celebrities. By now, now I'm good with it. I'm grateful actual forest Living in our, what can I say? Thank you for doing this sure your name comes up all the time, Of course, you came into my life because of our mutual friend Ricky, who took

when I was complaining about just trying to keep up. You know with the FAO an engagement, and you were just so. I We don't know what I would have done without you, because I had gotten to that point where there was no way that I could ignore the people who wrote me their weight to important to me. There is just simply no way that I could deal with it. either, and I had no idea people like you existed. was all new to me, but you made my life so much simpler. What I've got You gave me help you truly, so there he could join things we can talk about, but I know just told you that dumb, I was angry. The first time I watched this documentary going clear I was also inspired. I thought it was just incredibly brave and I wrote something on Facebook, Easter seven years ago and people still ask me about that post and they

I'll ask me: what's new in the world of Scientology, really reached a lot of people? I just watch the movie again and that's why I called Chuck said. Look I want to talk to Spanky. I want to talk about this movie and I just think it's important for people to understand why the movie was me why you agreed to be in it, because someone's gotta be done on these guys still in business and for the life of me. It just chaps my ass to know, and I still have tax events at its sell, the work we are paying for them to exist and to do the nasty things they do to their former members and make em away with a completely because there are charge, or so they call themselves and at the time that we first spoke about it. I think it was a bit his wedding, and I told you I did this thing and he said what do you want me to do as it now? I got this and I thought you would see it and that would be it, but then

when you wrote that thing I was shocked, blew up so many people shared as so many people side because of what you did and what you wrote and I'm sorry for that? At the same time, it was so worried about you making yourself a target MIKE. I so I know no, no, you know what I got some push, I knew there would be some and, as shock knows, I've always taken an interest in calls and organizations and churches both legitimate and illegitimate, and the reason why people believe Thing full disclosure. I never told you this, and this is the real reason I wanted to talk to you. I would swindled once upon a time years ago by a trusted financial adviser and a good friend, and I lost everything and that stories not unique lots of people have been through this, but the thing that interests me most about your story, my son

and everybody who was in this documentary is the frog in the boiling water? It's the one aim. It's the way it creeps up on US sound fuddle off and, if I'm being honest, when I look back at me, experience. There was a time when I knew I knew what was happening to me, but I was simply in some weird state of denial, and I was paralyzed and I couldn't get myself out of it. That's the human condition that I think is so interesting and what allows organizations like Scientology to exploit. So I just want to tell you that up front, that's kind of where I'm coming from. I would love for you just to give us a sort of the short version of such a thing exists about how they got you, how they kept you and how you got out

Why is very young when I got interested, because it was friends who introduce me to it, friends whom I had great regard for they got involved. I was really young thirteen fourteen years old and they were getting involved and I want it again. Bob. I got involved a little bit and then I backed away for life. here and then I jumped in kind of us both feet. The peer pressure for me. I think- and they saw me this goal of guns. Of course they were duped as well as I was, but since then most of them have departed. The group as well, which grateful for, but I just followed them in and bought into a completely and trusted at the beginning, your question, everything and you go while this doesn't make it

sense, but in very short order. Something called thoughts. Stopping technics come into play when you start to question this. Is this is best up? Oh no, I must have confrontation. Oh, I must be connected as somebody that's bad whose against me getting better, which was called from the porter superhero, yes or potential trouble source. So there's always a reason. So you assign all your doubts to something else. Then they use just shut. Those rocks up you to stop them King and their costs are suffering tat makes, which the organizations really good at using an idea for years at the beginning. Now it still go on you owe you can't think that, because you're connected suddenly, oh, you have covered tension to. What Hubbard was all you. Ve got crimes than having bad, so they pulls out on you or nationally, and then suddenly just do it yourself. It just a lot of time. Just oh I'm pretty out. You are connected to the present whatever, so that you stop thinking and you just.

All along following the orders in the commands out the leader and your superiors, an organization. What were those sullen that you found appealing? What was the promise? I was amended because I wanted my own gain. I wanted to help people, I mean up I was told of sixty for the most part I mean so analyzed tune, Internum drop out era. People's park was happening in Berkeley and I I wanting to help people. So much, and I know I was acted- trying to stop the war and all that stuff that I think in large part. We did a method that public discontent and the mass scale all over the country at the same time made a big difference, but I really want to make a huge difference. It I felt When this guy said look, we can do it, but we have to help people one by one. We have to clear the flat we have to help each individual go clear and get rid of their reactive mind, which is this

they claim exists which, by the way does not and they leave later find out even inside on me. It doesn't exist so s just ridiculous, but anyway, if we do not find that. I'm saying please stop me, because I can't do it speak quickly and ramble Abed. So tell me if I'm losing also on track and Chuck Royal, both jump in if we hear something that doesn't track but the reactive mind. look Hubbard. As I understand it, it was one of the most prolific writers of all time. I think it wrote like a thousand books he's in the Guinness Book of world records. For that I believe yeah. That's a lot of those books. Even do these lectures, he'd go and talk and drawn on and on and on, and those letters would get cut down into pieces and a lot of those lectures pieces of it would come up paused letters. There were still these volumes, but it's because he talked incessantly and while these huge tales, when he was writing pop fiction, he wishes goin off and these changes, but there

he developed diabetics and basically sank when he went on and on got strangers danger and more wild and more in the introductory stuff and all that nonsense. Well, that's the stuff that when you look at the documentary and you talk to people just kind of skipping ahead? Do you learn about Zanu when you learn a dollar phaetons? And you look? It's just comic. Stuff and no one in their right mind would look at that and go up. Ok that tracks at the beginning, I may say all this is gonna help me so much gotta along better with your girlfriend, your wife, your parents. This will happen in the workplace, we're just gonna teach you to communicate so,

Europe by and all that, nobody in their right mind would go o o k, Zena, ok assigned me up. Nobody does that, but hovered in time. The whole process create such a credibility for him that sooner unquestioned anything and also your told anything that he didn't develop or create as bunk anyway. So you have to justify the Hamburg and it's ridiculous, because you turn your back on so my stuff. I never think what he didn't event. and we as a foreign every day or he didn't build every bridge soon effect? If it didn't come from source, it's not real and not legitimate source being our unhampered. Did you ever meet him? Never. and from the films that you ve seen in the archives? Did you censor Erasmus from the man, because people worshiped, unlike a god, must remain very closest friends from the organization

They worked right with him. The woman I worked for four years, IRAN who started celebrity centre. She worked with them for years, and a lot of my very close friends worked with them daily and they sent all he's so greatly. So charismatic the only person I had a friend who was an attorney who went to flag and met him and said snaky. I met the com oh, my god. What do you think he said? I thought why is he saw everything in our view so evolve, and neither by God and made me laugh so hard in retrospect. But at that time, as I might go, you can't say that, but it's so true I mean a lot of people said now you he had those bad teeth, and you know this all these things at low. You can't think too even see those things talk about denial Our choice, runner were so. You mentioned the celebrity centre. People should know that that's sprawling complex in Hollywood right, incredibly I'll run. Hubbard way I mean,

Is that not every centre by the way celebration as our Franklin Avenue that main organization, the LOS Angeles organization at they advanced organization and the American, seeing how Argos Asian S account of buildings it delivered, signed, Hodges Service quite frankly, I don't even know what they're delivering anymore. I know the main courses that they had at the American seen her organization them primary course about doing that anymore. I don't know what they're delivering I think they're. Just doing a land grab by a lot of property, a lot a real estate so that they could justify their tax exempt status, say building organizations for all this floods and people hoard bounding our doors to get services. Although the buildings are empty from what I understand the credit I passed by one in Burbank all the time, there's a brand new one, I think on Burbank bullets,

Have you see now that spiking that valley ideal or gets called yeah and this kind of empty it looks it always he didn't say a lot of things that were true, but he said a lot of things that were plausible and taken out of context. He just created this whole mythology. The react, of mind that you mentioned, that was half the brain. The other half was the analytical and, like that kind of makes sense to my brain. I know there's a rational analytical pie, the way I think there is a very emotional instinctively pilot, conscious and subconscious there, Now I can get a powder, so he was basically in the business of helping people purportedly purge the reactive part of their brain, to get rid of these. What did he call them

grams, an grams right. So the auditor mammas obtain an unconscious of the talk and grounds that cause other difficulties in your life. What that's what you think at the beginning? But later the babies, which comes when you find out that's never cause of any of it had things other entities, but anyway again in the reactor mine which, by the way you have never heard the rapid materially dynamics you're all about the reactor mine. So then you buy into that, but then the kicker towards the end. The way realise at your clear, as you were like You never had a reactor. Maybe you created it. Well, guess what you would have created and your men not been told that this was their like at european level. there. I wouldn't put it there. You know like hello, so then people spend so much money go

God I never had a ragged mine. I created it. Why hello? You taught me to retain it. You know I can live with my kids. I got I have so many issues. I said: look I've worked long and hard to get those issues that sort of the same thing in Scientology. How well clear of this stuff for you, it seems to come back to money. Hope yourself up to an e meter which looks like something any kid in science class could make it has that slow moving needle that purportedly gauges tracks. Your reactions, auditors, ask you questions. You said across from each other face to face the meter tracks your responses, everything you say to that person is written down now, videos and now videoed and of course you pay for the privilege. Yes, every step of the way, how much money do you reckon

you paid over the years and the caribbean pain. I was asleep. I signed a day in your contract, as you might recall, and so and from the time is very young, I worked for nothing per se wages but sometimes really and often if I got his Russia's drifting dollars a week and of that eighty twenty hours today and what were you doing for your hating dollars a weaker Why was MR, whenever they Tommy do sometimes at a doing promotion for events? Sometimes I was doing when I was it. slave Labour camps, I was put in dry wine and working physical labour, but mostly I was just doing organizational stuff and recruiting people and keep them and and involved in taking now, as you remember from from Irish General Motors called handler for many years. What was your relationship with John prior to that.

why I met him in the organization at the time. I work for this woman Yvonne and I was her publications officer. She was a representative for hovered and the head of celebrity centre, so my job is to make sure happy and please and got what he needed in Anybody had wanted to go involved. I would talk to them and what average made sure that he stayed pleased. I made the power of celebrity for an organization like that. Is huge and honey it their endorsement? I mean it's like whether its guccio over they have a spokesperson in a celebrity endorsement. You just we could this be one that may become your endorsed an arm and the idea situation. I remember an interview with Travolta and I think it's in the movie till. If I recall, he started going to Scientology and that guy booked everything everything he touched

and he just immediately associated that connection and you're right. That's about the best pr. You can get for an actor to tell other actors that I was struggling, Then I went here started getting audited and now I'm in commercial, snowman sitcoms, the guy was on fire, accept make richer than I mean in my humble opinion, giant well tat was always incredible and he was looking stuff before he came along best but their attraction to him was he was he had. He really had the factor whatever you went for he bought it. Bandits Carter this before cycle everything you went up for he bought and then he got inside algae and then he books a tv series well hello. He probably would have anyway, because pages was that good at what he did and he was funny and he was kind and charismatic and wonderful-

what he did and had this magic, but it came in with so to a tribute all that to the organization has given them now a power that he already possessed. But I've been asked to him. He didn't realize It already. I wonder, if even believed in this house at that time, but it was pretty obvious, he was pretty magnificent. You guys became close. He was at your wedding was yes, he was and he cared for you and you cared for him very much, but he must have known your basically part of the cheapest workforce since slavery and you

are living in conditions that our great, I don't think they think about that. They really look at that. They gave her came to see where we left. I dont like call him ever coming there. You know we ve lived and pretty scholarly situation back then. I think that the situation has changed considerably back in my day, cause it out. They make more money to be made like fifty dollars, resources fifteen dollars a week or something like that- I'd rather they make now, but that was meant Many years ago, how many you're in Europe twenty is at this point out with a team eighteen, okay, so got married, you got

pregnant you stay by got married twenty three in stating till I was thirty four well, so I stay working for the organization when I left working there, let the sealed innovation, but I stayed a member, because I was worried about my husband security clearance. He was a high up in the legal sphere or other organisation, and I didn't want him more trouble than he would be. Another So I just played along until I couldn't do it anymore. Why the latest researchers in an apparently nine percent of employers plan to make enhancing the employee experience priority and twenty twenty two. Here the way I heard it, for instance, along with a flexible work schedule and generous benefits. I now encourage singing, consequently chuck is a very happy employee. I love everything about

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well, see brute cruder dot com Sula explained would see, Org is, if you would, the citizen is the most fertile part of the organization and its Bobby clean. The most dedicated members are, I consider the most brainwashed members are other than the Public Corp pay money. For this you send a billion your contract. You agree to do any job at any time whether your trainer untrue, you have to do it because Hubbard claimed you ve done everything in your existence of trains, arrears of resistance, so ok or why brain surgery. How are you better just remember how you did it before I exaggerate, thereby minutes. I was that outrageous, but United

writing about the billion years now literally as a billion years contractors obeying a contract gets and I brought by contract, so I've only by about nine hundred and ninety nine million knife to hide behind the ups and downs winters. Addressing that I read, because otherwise I wouldn't have a life. My children would have had life truly. Was my children saved my life, their honey, because MIKE I can keep them there. I couldn't do it. It was awful, and I worry about my kids and so and my son, my daughter, I could not her and escaped out. I was pregnant with my son. I was in the prison camps whereas pregnant, so he was born quite ill is full term in under three pounds had not got now. I dont know what were come of. Anything I just can't imagine through is your husband at this point. In time, he's still working their Ex husband

he's not on staff. He. Why not start a long career went to law school and he doesn't I'm alone from what I understand is still very much a member and doesn't have any didn't. Do my children both of your children or with him no they're adults, they never my daughter earlier MIKE Vanessa. Oh you Travis at Missus, wedding but don't know I've met. I mean both Travis and Vanessa he's their dad. Yes, he's their dad and open, as I had spoken to him and twenty eight years.

Thirty years renown early, have bodies, you're pregnant with Travis. Vanessa is a baby still yes, attire baby, and how did the church deal with that to get on with your baby you're at the time, and I said I was in prison camp, I wish in something called a rehabilitation project force which is like a re indoctrination camp for members to kind of their away, go out of step with the mindset, the rules of the game south, along with three hundred other people, that I knew we all got. Sent. It was, as are all anybody. Any outdated organization got taken off their jobs and put into this camp because there was a sort of higher executives who just had the skids simultaneously, and I was in that group not that I had out to do, but I think because of my proximity to IRAN, there was concern that I might have some attitude so

I take it. You just explain what that means. Having altitude, I was a high ranking within the organisation. Ok,. I have a question to what did they perceive that you had done to wind up in prison camp? Essentially and described there was an incident. I was already on a bad list for some reason and then I was simultaneously trying to get Yvonne. Who was my senior my boss at the time who I adored some medical attention because it is suffering. quite severely with an honest and I wanted her to get help and she kept saying. I need to go back to flag the headquarters in Florida to get some repair because she claimed that somebody had messed up on some of her processing. So any Yvonne had dedicated her life to this organisation. There couldn't be aboard dedicated person. In my opinion, everything she did was to make covered up and everything.

And she was quite ill, her children. She gave them to harbour Emma. She turned them over. Our young girls work for him as messengers, and she didn't see them for years because they were with Howard and she was so dedicated and seat bought it. How kind the singer- and I trust her and loved her and believed her, and when she took girl. I wanted her to get help. I went to every body that I could think of to get her help and I was just run into brick walls So finally, I went to this high ranking by natural person and said I need to have the money. I need to get the money to send Yvonne to flag, which is the headquarters and clear water, and she said if she wants to go to flag, she could take the F in Grey Excuse me, this woman has given her life for this organisation entire life. I mean Russia very anxious, Scotty Job, but she had given.

Many many years to organization Workin for method working on that ship and everything. So it just made me angry, and I shook my finger hammer face and said you re bonds, assassin. I wasn't gonna get me any points, So where did that land you? What were the conditions like where they put you? Well, you know that big blue building that you are talking about earlier at the big blue, sometimes cop, that aren't residual. I was on seventh floor that building disarm lockdown, where we had to run up and down the stairwell, and we had to work chipping pain and been out scraping window cells in doing reservations on the organisation and- and I was pregnant. I got pregnant, and so it was a key ass, really awful, but you had to live. There are also right here and you had a livid. These banks, like I think for six. I don't remember TAT, you had a live. There did your baby with you at this point.

Mean where's renewal Vanessa Sheet not taken from him before I went. She was with me when I was working in our position, but when I got put in prison camps she got taken. Why does something called a cadet organization which is three vital in my opinion, but I gotta see her twenty minutes a day was called family time. I was on really good baby. I could, her I've been. As I recall, it was one of those visits that ultimately lead to Europe on authorized. Departure I had a planet out pretty well and I to figure out what is gonna do as well as I could, because you constricted people other than the people within that group and our Pierre Fucus pick two other rpf. First But you couldn't speak to other people. You are now. Do you want to walk anywhere? You were not to use the phone, you were not it, so I did make a call, but because I promise had I have to call the doktor in an arm. I call somebody to get help describing

can the moment when you decided you had to leave, you had to get out of there come hell or high water, where there are a few steps back. Add up to it. I had gone and I've been doing work on premises and one of them I had to work was at the cadets on and I went to see what my daughter was and the condition there was deplorable. So that was my first that I won't know. I'm out that was not present. But then I am. These missionaries came this table on mission. They came to put together. some kind of reward for the RPF and the EPA Averages Estates project force for a building blundered organizations. Will then why these buildings

again, so they wanted this commissioners are trying to establish an award, so they asked if I could get a copy of Sir Knight Fever for the crew for those people, those prisoners and both slaves to have to get to see the sun. So I had to put this together and I was able to with the help of someone on John Staff on his regular staff. The people who work for him professionally get a copy of his film has print of the film to show that this event- and I was told that he would lowness a copy predicated on us getting together, because he had seen me I'd like disappeared. I worked very closely with them and then I disappeared developers again. So he didn't I I was so I was so what you know you can get this funding. These gotta see you so I said I'll, let you know so. I went back and ass. They said yes go ahead, do it make the agreement, so I did

so now? If the inn and we're gonna show the fun and the firm as a creditor rolling, and I see one that high people who later became a presidency gets of Iraq's toward me. They always gonna say: oh well, that's Peggy good get into some. Then I saw two other people coming and there s plenty me out, and then they came in from any said attack one in the more you gonna call John right now in council. I said: excuse me no! No. we made an agreement now tell me a commitment that commitment is a commitment so that no, I haven't. I commend this and now you're gonna castle and it I've been there for so long and suffered so much on my back. I can't do this so then I call them. I was crying hysterically, I call them said. Look, I can't make it and said: what do you mean you can make it a really got to lose its banking? I don't know what's going on, but this is wrong. Whatever you think you have done. This is wrong. You haven't been here for me. I need you and my mom

this dynamic. So many things that happened and I had been absent from major advances itself I felt so guilty He got so angry and I was just I was crying said: no, I'm so sorry I'm doing this, so I can get better. So I can help you as its biggest bulshit. That's not true, and I couldn't even think, but I left my man. I don't think I slept for a day or so I was so flipped out and then I just yet and the next morning I never forget. I went out to war there is a window and I looked out- and I just have clarity in Athens, I'm so down here. I've got think about plan so from then I start thinking a plan to get out of there from where I was and how to come up with a escape plan and had a planet out so that I can get access to my daughter, so they could get her,

out, because I need to take her with me and get her out of the delicious and it took a whole bunch of planning on my part, but I had no one. I can collaborate with cash. You can't tell anybody. Your plan is now ready out what was your medical condition, but the boy

your daughter women as had been quite ill and when I come in to see her and she had suffered from a call that there was a block that film traded, as is the exact same time period that statue from when I saw her until one I escaped was a few weeks I think, but she was still sick, so I just Lucius side needed to get her out of there. So I went and said I was having problems with my privacy how to get to a doctor, which is what got me to get to the phone, and then I took her and said when the car pulled up to take me. My friend I said: oh, that's, my sister nauseous taken Vanessa, the doktor tissues sick. So I andor my friend kid. I've had a vanessa to my friend and she put her in the car and then,

agenda of the kind we took off. That Vanessa went to the doktor right, that's in their after and she had slipped a cop whooping cough and she had been quite out without respiratory on this. You described in the movie seeing her in the crib her eyes, fused shut with mucus, they were free, lies over her body. Yes, it was so awful how many children were in that room. I pay five six, in that little tiny room, but there was a whole floor with other kids. One of my best friends who is also her child, was there to sheep with Tommy one day, if she heard a chore screaming and she knew her kid and she was just over at the building for another reason: ass. She ran it and her son was all. bundled up in the blanket like almost suffocating with his legs. Slowly ass, she read it

thank God. I walked in there when I did, because otherwise he could have just mother there. I know who knows what what had happened to him, what a nightmare. So how does it feel to get out. Did they leave you alone? Did they try to get you back? What was that, like the night that I left? I was determined. I wasn't going back in a manner. Why? Because I was again let my child go back. to that condition, and I dunno I haven't thy primacy because I was pregnant and I didn't look as pregnant as I shall read at that stage. So I was very frightened because you are so far behind. Do you really think if you leave some terrible thing well before you, some you'll, get hit by a car or die of cancer?

Sunday offers gonna happen, because we ve turn your back on the truth, but I think that's common with our cards that they have this phobia inducement. This can cause mental handcuffs that you think you can't go size very frightened at first then I wasn't gonna go back at that next day. Of course, some people they find out where I was a candle with cover me. I refuse to go back with them for some reason I gotta figure really clearly I said now and not going back, don't touch me I'll call. The police don't touch my child. I was like so I really has drawn on this, but I said I'll go back is at stake. If you don't come back, you're gonna get declared a suppressant resemble hello. I'm already gonna get repairs rise in prison. I already left so they said no will fix it. If you come back and you rob out properly, which means do the other proper steps so that I

Then I'll go back when I M ready to go back on my own terms. I have to get settled a little bit and I will come back but then a week or so so then I found some piece of land and I set up a home at a friends house and then I started going back for this rooting out process. That was ok for a little bit and then I left and men. That's like the first step when you leave workin for the organization, but then I continued to do stuff all the others.

Again just stay in good standing with the organisations. I wouldn't wonders. Why did you my life? I just I volunteered, because I still had connections that organization wanted and I had created also some political allies for their organization when I was there, so I knew I kind of kept those things up as much as I could and then I just couldn't continue anymore. I've left now. My husband knows I don't wanna. Do it anymore now years had passed a meanwhile in I've. I call myself a mugwump. I was on the fence. My mug was on one side by want was on the other I can about trying to not get in trouble with our decision, and I would have friends who suppresses, and I was so afraid I'd get caught. I was always so paranoia. They ve come over, please on plant by my house, because I'll see of the symbols your cargo reported. I so frightened all that, but in time I got declared to suppress the person. It was such a

We truly fight the oh, my god. I was in such good company. the people I respect the most and the role that already but declares the press about. It only be so. I didn't have a thing on it, but then a lot of problems with their innovation because they did want me to speak to anybody as unusual talk or make em rough us for them there. Ok, maybe they're gonna shoot out star in any document trees or appear on any podcast atop candidly via your appearance, Nothin MIKE. I did so much for so many years, but that are under ground. I used take me When I told the press idea was body now they re I'd, say I was Beverly center. I give my kind of break them properly said to her. I didn't want to be found out, so I didn't for a long long time and then, when Larry did the book Larry right, you want to do, and I said no, I can't I can't have it prize winning author. Yes at this one I had just like. I had a home on my cars and either

can't lose everything now cause, I'm gonna speak and then I'd done it on Iraq for so long and I've got another cap now that it's me because they suspected me all the time, I'm sure, but I did want them to know for sure. So then he just said. No. Thank you. Gotta do is your guns, her story, because so many feel I've heard of Scientology, but they don't know what it is and I said well that's by designed so that your actually come in. So he said, I understand that Nobody really knows charge of all destroyed, they dont other will story, and you can tell you could fill in those gaps and I said no, no, I can't say suspect there's gonna- be till I renew your reasonable novels and good unnoticed. Isn't all ok, then side greeted them? and then an idiot. So I do the book and then I remember one day the phone rings. I met a restaurant with a friend and he said a shaky book has been accepted in eighteen international publication, as it already

good for you, I'm so proud that makes these are he said and if conveys front page story. How do we reported, I said, or how great a ring is more? It's your story, Oh my god. Oh my god, I don't they're gonna, kill me! Oh my god, I'm dead, I'm a dead person all MIKE. I was so frightened and then came out in all the arrest warrant for stuff was far greater. It had been terrible. I you know the kids were followed. We had pilot investigators. Farmers over time was dreadful. Man, I don't please over the. Can you describe that a little bit more well when I first left yeah, because before I was in good standing, I mean I was still like. I was out of the sea org, but before I made good with say, nor are we all count behave on behave, so they didn't know. What's gonna happen with me, an ice had friends, they didn't like my friends and I friends that were very controversial, so that wasn't a popular thing, because

was friends with espies, but at that point that you don't I'm an adult, I should get to pick up. My friends are by now in my life. I should know the good guys for the bad guys, so you ve got to tell me what can be friends with, but they thought they could and for a long time. I let them, but at this point I didn't want to let them any longer, and I paid the price for that. So then, every time someone come to my house at private investigator would go see them the following day. I'd have friends out for dinner. then Piazza shop. Without asking questions about me. I just got nasty and then people going through my garbage almost every summer camp in other common practice for people who leave and speak out and I wasn't, even speaking out that they know over. Maybe they did, but I didn't they paid our recent. They knew I had an opinion and they had a longer that go on offer long term barriers, but then it created way down because I was no longer on their radar and allow our people big migration, Baton, endeavour, bigger enemies and big fish to fry

time frame rockwork, so you leave in nineteen, seven. I left the sword, seventy classes, seventy eight! I get a clear divorce and eighty seven because our large rub, my husband thought emphasised how she was not the most important thing in my life we could be married, it is clearly wasn't and I couldn't take it immediately. The isn't isn't and at this point it wasn't so we can be married. So ok, so I am now asking that I am no longer in the game and involved. So I just decided to leave and then things got very stinky for me because I, like I said they d, like my friends and they thought I was subversive and then surely ever. That is seventy. I wanted it there because I thought I knew helped sorry, my out which that's really and no now an organization it up, there's nothing worse,

the mental health field. I mean, there's a wheel, animal world, the Sykes right. Anybody remember how failed yeah so that put me in a whirl bad. Situation with our decision bad at that point out then carry it must have been really awkward for your husband at this point to he's still high up the food chain. By this time we split up. I mean I certainly wasn't with a man s getting therapy are I took the kids to get their appeal because my kids, really they were little, but they were very said dot by all of us that every time there was a knock other we'd freeze, because we're sure is a process server or our.

Has come in as crazy, though not of the Jordan Israel. Some other areas, like so bizarre went out was doing a film when out give me another Oscar winning documentary down the thumb. Outgoing clear I believe I saw he was talking to my son, and I was so awful for us and we feared for allies is a travesty. Didn't really think will be killed. he said my words of kids, we didn't know. What are they we know there are mother was always in danger. We know we had always be afraid we do. People following is one. We must think, of course, with all their lives are in danger at various times. My god of course say what I mean they were traumatize around more than even real. I know you said something Larry right. Does that really struck me in the beginning of a documentary? His book by the way, is the same title. Is the doc right going clear the prison of?

We find the prison of belief that something we can unpack in a minute to, but early on he just calls it the crushing certainty, the crushing certainty of the true believers and the impact that as on people who are just investigating Scientology for the first time, people who were curious, like Paul Haggis, whose amazing, in this documentary as well, you know he just picks up a copy of Dianetics on the street opens up, says: take me there and he runs

right into people who are so certain about everything. They say. I'm always impressed by the power of certainty and the danger of it too and TAT is a brilliant man, talented and educated, and in I know, there's a stigma and these cuts that you're broke in are somehow you can't function on your own. So this is much, but I had to say and so bad if you need one, you know, but that's not only the case here, a lot of very accomplished people. You know that woman grievances

friend she's until she teaches that Georgia she's out IE eight, I mean they're very established people to you. Yes, what's that mean? That means the highest? You could be in Scientology at this point at the highest operating the incidents robbery, fate level ate. It means you're at cause over everything, universe, matter, energy, space and time of that's how I saw it anyway, as is the highest point. You can get an she's there and tore hard core believer from what I understand. It's just impossible job, I'm in two things could be true at the same time as we know, when I look at the footage of Tom cruise accepting that metal. When I look at him doing a military salute to that giant photo of our on Hubbard there's so much german slash nazi symbolism and paraphernalia.

its mind boggling to look at that and realise that, forgive me, but they drank the Kool aid. They drank it and their passing it out. Stan in line four seconds and thirds. How can Tom cruise be as big as he is as talented as he is as knowledgeable as he is that guy can fly a frickin, f, fifteen and an Apache helicopter. But he can't hit Google and read about his church is not allowed to revoke as fair it s mean in that permitted to look- and I dont know the man, but I think from everything I heard about him is a great guy, but I do know John, and I know how good he is he's. So good is a good human being an honest human being and oppressing you. I mean who just completely buys this story is a prisoner believe, but after all

years. You ve never had any contact with him because he is possessed of the crushing certainty that all true believers have Alex so my unhappiness helping us case because I'm hoping, as things have happened, as I've any about things that by Scientology rose, can't possibly happen. Now you can't die of cancer of your o t and yet check career good oceanic twice and he died of cancer. Kelly present Johns wipe out. He died a cancer. You lost your son, I mean at some point you think I got a law which can cause you're all in oh dear. What happened was burgee spoke. He spoke. He can you hear me your pictures, God, and you yourself. I hope it's not decided

I guess I gotta tell you there was that one thing in there. I forget who say this basis. You know you ask a Jew, you ask a Christian you SK a more men. Hey tell me about your religion, two minutes: they can answer it. It's like you do that with scientologist and they can't they can't vital. Is I don't know for eight years, eight nine ten years there still getting the basics, its being just like breadcrumbs crumbs, they're, just giving you a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit more in and then before. No it your eight years in and somebody's telling you that the entire thing is based on a character, zero lives on another planet and you're like man, that's a long run for a short slide.

I'm in now, I'm it is there anything better than Paul. Haggis is description of that experience. Where he's like out, you know, so they bring out the handwritten stuff by hovered, and I read in a sick. What are you What are you kidding me? I mean he's just his real action. The way he tells the hour is so great. If you haven't seen this movie have to see it going clear. Green gets back, backs, rethink reply gosh, I you know I will try, but you get the basic idea. I just wanted people to hear her voice and to get a look at her face. You novel put some of the video up there she's real. She survived what I believe to be one of the most pernicious cults ever. I just think that if everybody in the country sees this movie, this documentary- that's now was seven years old there, both great or re

The book there both great she's backbone, I'm so sorry, please forgive me the funds and did not disturb. I know how that will carry I'd, be deployed. They showed up and click the door monitoring, the channel and the how God? I don't think, I'm big, efficient or IRA in only a remedy. This woman, who is completely fearless and his courageous, could be and she and render their amazing, and now they have sounded after all the time. But So sorry about that, I live in a second thought. I think it's only a matter of time until this tips. I was just saying the chalk. If everybody in the country either reads this Booker watches this documentary you're going to be forced to look it Tom cruise differently, we're gonna, be forced to wonder how the IRS buckled under the pressure to turn this, as extortion is how they buckled as extortion.

They suit every age, housing and the eye aroused personally thousands of lawsuits personally yeah. How in the world has this been allowed to happen? The First time I saw the documentary Spanky, I thought: well, that's a game over this will do it. You know I thought the same thing when the book came out. Might I've had that that somebody has fresh when we had the IRS raid. I said: ok, that's it! That's the irate assembly seven either at said the Earl Relations than didn't happen. LISA Macphersons killed. I think that's gonna do didn't happen. I mean things happened, this monument things and yet they survive. I now Sonny thinkers are delivering citizens because they have members who are giving them huge amounts of money. millions and millions and millions of dollars, so their coffers get bigger and bigger and they don't have to make up. Any they're just find real estate like many world dictators. Do they just mortgage backed by that over there and they will contain

When you have billions of dollars at your disposal, which in fact I believe they do, there's verified and very little. You can't buy with that kind of money plus in a workforce. The bay sickly labour slave for three billion, You know how to pay taxes, people donating just as surely as people would ties in whatever face millions and millions of dollars and millions of dollars means and millions and millions of dollars, hundreds of men in some cases It's so crazy for me sitting here. Listening to you, I only try and argue from the middle ages, try, you know what a situation like this to hear both sides because are always These are important for the life of me. What am I supposed to do? Invite Tom cruise on Invite John Travolta? Invite anybody on I haven't heard or read. One single persuasive thing, I'm having a hard time.

finding anything remotely persuasive. I know how people get indoctrinated. I understand that, but once you're in it, what in the world are they offering? They have a great number of french groups. I'm not gonna like criminal, like they have some time human rights used for human rights and they have all kinds of groups: social betterment groups that are real they're, all just organizations to make an organization good they're, just groups today, form so that you think, while trying to get most of em, don't even mention that they have any affiliation with Saint already, but they all do. There are part and parcel of the organization and they get slavery spokespeople for those things as well as crazy, but they will tell you we have the most active human rights groups and the world where the most the fastest growing they talk a good game, honey they really do and from your method

odds ears that Sunday won't come along TAT, make a chip, and I think the lack of membership is a big thing, but there still making May is a man's dollars. They need them Listen. They just have money money money which is really the bottom line, which is not about a man, is always been withdrawing. This asian Jim Jones had six hundred people give or take yes right. I mean you, don't give tens of thousands. What you need is a government that is willing to give you tax exempt status. That's what you need an that's, what they uphold it, that's what they have there's gotta be internationally. Maybe Thirty thousand active members, if that in the film over at all gone away down from their so maybe look

a ten that is ready to simply ask today there between twenty five and fifty five thousand active scientologists. But the church website claims growth of more than four point: four million members so happy whatever, who economically amicably spanking and I'm gonna believe Marty and Tom and might Jason and poor. all and Sarah Mighty, rather back in the early nation Jesse all what happened he got set. What now he got set, they fit them not at all and he started attacking our critics. Yes, yes, my darling, it's absolutely true! Now, be kidding me that guy was wow when did that happen soon after they found came out There was a documentary and, in England, a guy named Joseph Wrong and he did a movie about science.

By my side, how your story, something and MIKE was already Teeterin at that point, but he did go back and I know I went back because all of the churches perceived enemies at that time he went after them started tackle torn your tegor was a journalist and in our current gonna carry just all the people there position that was on their real, their full blast. He went after and a very bad way believe and told me. Yeah you're, his anger: doesn't he right the underground bunker? Yes, he does, after I posted he pick that up and that's what I I got some push back for yeah blogging about the film. That's how I got Tony's name he's in the movie,

but Marty I mean ties me my friend for many many many years he's terrific. Thirty years the eyes, I wonder for man was somebody in the film credits, Marty Rossman with being the best. Well, I guess I don't know you that's a terrible compliment by the way by your grief, I would not put that in a special skills section of your resident. Do you think that Larry and Alex you know the author of the book and the producer of the dock? What do you think they make of Marty's reversal if they were floored by this as well, but with such a fund thing, because, even as were leaving organization, even pol pot haggis? He was I I'm no one round bad about, however, because it a debt decompression is so lengthy to get her from all I dont want

work there too. I don't want to reinvent Haji. Active till Hubbard is not a great guy. That's a huge leap. Their minutes allotted steps later, but I know was it has said, no one wants anything about hover bad, but then you know in time you get then you wake up more and more cycle. When Leah wrote her book, she thought she had gone well, meaning, but then she started arises of letters and people type horse, for she had no idea how bad it really was, and then ass she was outlined. She learned warmer and you become more aware of the mistreatment of other people, look a believer than ever. They want and what is really important to me that people should they should subscribe to whatever doctrine they think, but I have a problem of the human rights abuses My big issue with our decision. I don't like people being abused, so that's my

maybe that's a pretty reasonable bar. I think everybody would agree that human rights abuses are bad. I just can't get past the tax thing. banking funny, I'm there with you, because all the office does this happen, speed paid for but you and me and everybody appraisal of the tax system came if this is really important high, my list, but I wish I could pick where it goes to write your cats and that they can benefit from my tax dollars and my hard work. You worry Ray you said of capturing shops, my to its very upsetting to me. What do we do by we? I just mean your average citizen. You know, aside from watching this dark sharing, book and so forth. How do you support somebody like Leanna? Is our aim raymie only a remedy. The remedy that was an incredibly brave girl is fairly she's gone

How do you support the way? She knows that you know that documentary the accident and the book that open the door to what she was later able to do, and I'm so proud of her she's done such great work she and render are still on. They still have a good podcast. They interview a lot of people, their fabulous, that's might remember he might render which their pod earlier, as called care. Scientology, fair game right because fair game, fair jail, game erection, they used to justify any tactic, their dirty checks. Anything in anything. and to hurt anybody in the process which they said. Doesn't happening more and you know what they it doesnt haven't any less either. That's just our goals I figure it like they. I know I sound horribly one sided in this whole thing, but

this organization has billions and billions of dollars chuck right at their immediate disposal, they're not afraid to spend whatever it takes to harass people who try and get out of this thing. If there is any rejoinder to Alex's film, if there's me rejoinder to Larry's book. Why not spend whatever it takes to get their version of the truth out there. Why not debunk this documentary, whatever the cost framed by frame seen by scene and tell us the truth. They have it. They want, and in fact what they do is continued to tell people to stay off line. Do not google do not

watch any of this. It seems to me so I dont really anything. They also have a lot of fake websites out there. I was tell him like earlier Spanky that I was looking for Paul Haggis is letter when he left the Carlton. two thousand nine and it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack because precisely all. Well, here's the actual letter. I go there and its something written clearly written by scientologist debunking the letter I couldn't find then a very, very tabloid video about man stuff for freedom magazine whatever that is causing cowards paper that that's like from attacks, Larry and attacks, paw Haggis and attacks man, anybody in the film, but but you're in good company. It's why I was happy to write about seven years ago and it's why I'm happy to talk to publicly about it. Now, one of these days it's gonna tip and a map,

God's here's my I'd really should be on the side of people who said wait a second like you said, believe whatever you want to believe what ship, whatever you want to worship right, but for the I to see film and to read that book and still say yup yup tax free, makes sense thus tax exempt. I can't think of a better, mission for concerned citizens to look at and say, ok, let's do what we can to shine a light on that anyway. It took lot of guts for you to get out of that. My asthma and allotted guts to be in the book and a lot of guts to be in the dock. Thank you for that. Thank you. perhaps so, opening your voice in helping people to, hopefully the look and see the famine get an education about, what's really going out back group because as stop all good for sure, let's leave it here.

Where we started? You provided a service and it was a really important service to me because I have always told shock and anybody else who listens. My boss, like my real boss, is not the discovery channel or CNN or Fox, or anybody really who's ever paid me. It's the people who watch people who listen and treating them fairly was something I it was important to me and I could not respond back in two thousand for two thousand five. When we met my choices were either to ignore them or spend all of my time responding to them. It sounds like a small thing you know, but for me it was a big thing and I really appreciate your help then that world? I was at my wits end honestly with those boyscout letters to remember those I asked

very well very, very well. I start counting after fifty thousand now as absurd. It is amazing that they just kept clean it had no. Surely there can't be this many new Eagle Scouts but truly came forever, and I have other Keyser get request and nobody ever responded the way you did and gave a lot of joy to those kids, a lotta joy could not have done it without your help. Just wanted to check in let you know we're both big friends. They pioneers keep up the good work a check as he knows his, are I'm grateful to have you guys they, my friends, truly by the word weren't banking come from Sylvia was given road sea? They wanted the recipe opinion. Taylor is a name, We are even if TAT S opinion Taylor, I'm mexican makes a can not amongst the cab. I was very young, rikers arrive for Skype, modernization and

Had a friend, name, Larry Shudder, call them both shudder and, I said I'm Bush at her eyes were still untouched. He was innovation is where he had been as a child into different group like that men and women, were men and Niger, I'm one of those kind of books like Pennsylvania. we and others, but anyway Amish related car group Christian. And then he got unsigned haji, but he started com we spent the outer no worry got it from all. He told me later pieces. You always ran with a positive ass. Had friends there ever pay should go. We gotta group, you know my girlfriends right, so he said so we go. We steer bands, here's a musician and are the Fraser musicians, and you owe baggy at her gang or here so we start chemists baggy, and then

was very annoying to me at first and then my two best restaurant commies Frankie, and then I was it there, just kind of stuck in a spiral of thirteen, forty phenomena or lady with this ridiculous name, but they still works out whatever spiky works. When you got a great story, the filled again for sharing we appreciated. Thank you guys sites will be well. Let me check Lovey MIKE, thank you. So much you're welcome