Would you have years episode number two hundred and sixty two of the way I heard it. It's called Let's talk about september, scroll, dams and chuck. I guess we should just start by apologising the advertisers they provided. No, they were sponsoring episode with scrotum in a title, but you know what you got. What you get on this gig. that's true, that's very true. This is a good upside though we say that a lot. We always say it's a good episode, but I know you ve wanted to have this guy on for a long time. James nestor modesty aside, they ve all been good, some of them, I they have been very good, and some of them are just satisfying in ways that are super personal. and that's for me anyway. That's the case here, James ster is a writer, freelancer he's been set. francisco for years? And he- god famous not too long ago, he wrote a book called deep. and then he wrote another book called breath. His book called breasts

as the straw that broke the camel's back for me or my cept him, it's the straw that broke the symptoms back, it literally changed your life didn't ya, it convinced me, after thirty, five years of being a mouth breather to finally yet the surgery I needed to fix my nose and that happened early early june a year ago about fourteen months ago, in real time, Its changed every aspect of my life from the way exercise to the way I sleep So I feel a measure of gratitude to the sky and I've always wanted to meet him. I've heard him interviewed and other places, and I admire. Stuff you were saying before, which is pretty funny. You haven't read his book, but you feel I do have because I called you like at the end of every chapter and said get a load of this.

Well, yeah I mean I, we talk a couple of times a day. It seems and, as you were reading that book, you would just tell me about the chapter or chapters that you have just read. I know all the stories when we are having the conversation. I just knew everything that you brought up and that he mentioned because you had related it in real time. As you were reading the book, it was cool yeah. I guess I'm kind of it evangelist for this topic, because if you have a hard time breathing, if you have deviated ceptin, if you ve thought about a cept, o plastic in the past, then we have a lot in common. I didn't feel appreciate just how bad situation was until I finally got a fixed and so for that reason I'm happy All of this in detail. It was really good. really great fun talking to James nestor, you're gonna meet in a minute, but I shall point out when I My nose done. I about it on this podcast, I wrote about it on facebook, even film myself getting the spot. Moved from my

from my snobs. It was quite an odyssey in my drug addled postscript pain, delirium that far load the surgery I mentioned. Somebody ought to set this whole hot mess to music. weirdly enough, some listeners at this podcast gas sent in some songs some weirder than others, some better than others but I want to share one of those with you today at the end of the podcast cast. What's the guys, chuck? build, do moss. Do you emma s bill? I challenge the listeners to incorporate a song that somehow touched on my ceptin and my others scrotum, which at the time had swollen up to an enormous size due to one another, quality that we will need to get into now. I just thought it would make for an interesting tune, and this guy I'll do my ass man. He stepped up with a little dirty

I'm not going to describe it, I'm just gonna play it for you at the end of the podcast and let the chips fall where they may. He called it symptoms and scroll items, which is why episode is called. Let's talk about symptoms and scroll Adams, because we just did Its episode number two sixty two with james nestor, and here it is, right after this dude dude, didn't do it every month my friends box, butcher box ship me a of selection of high quality meat right to my home, and they would love to do the same for you Alex no added hormones, free shipping in the continental? U s, but most of all is the asked meet your money can buy pact fresh, and shipped frozen. So you can save time on your next trip to the grocery store. You can customize your own box. You can go with one of theirs. Doesn't matter either way, it's everything you need and nothing you don't

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I, like my knees. I know my own business when the tiger came upon me. Naturally, I was terrified, sound good, banks ROS what happened. Next, though, you can't leave us with that. Well, I, He had me and it went raw and I shit my pants hook. I suppose that's perfectly normal. You know I mean seeing and encountering a tiger in the wild. No! No just now when I went raw, I shit my pants. pat, oh.

The visual get now, to my mind, right I'll, get a clear, the mine. I take a deep breath, wellgood that was from these two Guy, I think they were called beyond the fringe. it was Peter moore, dudley more and they do these. Ex on stage like nods, I was nothing they of nothing. They cracked each other up and they were a big deal in the sixties and that's one of the first exchanges peter cook walks out and says. So how was your trip to india? and no dudley, more ask and peter cook literally talks for twenty minutes, describing his search for the elusive bengal tiger. and it ends with a bout of incontinence. It's great it didn't in drinks, because deadly more with pretty famous for that re started, withdrew ok. So how are you forget? How are you I'm great,

and I'm tickled to death, and maybe even honoured that you would make time for this are now much chuck told you, but your book breath was: proximate cause of one week of abject misery, followed by fourteen months of complete bliss. I got the sceptre plastic. My life is changed and I dont think what would have happened without you James. I wish I could take credit for that, but it was all the good researchers and surgeons out there that are applying these techniques, plying these techniques and bring an awareness to people about nasal breathing. We're not told anything about the difference between mouth breathing, the nasal breeding and that's a cry, in and of itself I am and in violent agreement with you- but I will say that, like so many other really really important things, it seems like the conversation has existed for so long has existed for so long in sight.

These vehicles right where the choir preaches to each other, so yeah sergents get it and certain doctors get it, but you book. but through a lot of that, and you took what I in the hands of somebody else could have just been a pile of research and we told a story about species and about our The ship with what I guess is maybe the most fundamental thing our body does, and you know not to blow unnecessary sunshine. blow unnecessary sunshine, but it was already relevant. You made it interesting and so I wanna talk to you about all of it. I'm sure, you're sick of telling some of these stories, but you still feel like this is a mission oriented thing Do you still believe the information in breath and fundamentally change the species.

I'm not sick of talking about this stuff. When I am, I won't talk about it. I really mean that I'm so excited to continue talking about it, because I keep hearing stories from people like you, people who had had sleep people who had had sleep, thirty snoring for twenty thirty years, people who had chronic structure and in their nasal cavities for allergies or for some other development. I had to breathe properly and completely changed their lives. So I heard these when I was researching the book. Now, I'm hearing them every single day from people all over the world so people all over the world so that charges me up makes me want to keep talking about it. How can something so obvious- have becomes so obtuse. How did we lose sight? Did we lose sight? I mean that one think in terms of I'm drinking that's a couple of water. That's but you can live a couple days without it. Food can go weeks without, but

This is a thing we do what twenty thousand times a day and so many of us are just doing it wrong. I think that p for when they look at breathing, they do assume if your breathing you're, ok, you get near in and out of your lungs, I'm reading them alive. When you're not breathing, that's really bad cut your unconscious or dad or something awful. But what but don't seem to appreciate what I didn't appreciate until I got into this research was how you breathing that so important, just like how you what kinds of is not just important vow you're eating food? Are you eating food or not eating food? It's the kind. of foods, you're eating and even the time of day in which are eating those foods same thing with exercise, so I think for the past two hundred years or so tat was We thought about breathing you not as long as your breathing. You're. Ok knows mouth whatever

bringing thirty four times minute does matter. It's just accident you bringing ushered in co2 but as I learned its much more subtle than that, and our ancestors have known about the stuff, literally for thousands and thousands of years. Now, was. The thing that really shocked me into your book when you started not really with an examination of The way we breathe, but with the way our teeth look? The way our posture has both Posture has been evolved and devolved the impact on modern dentistry. Visa be mouth breathing. Has to be one of the great, told correlations modern medicine Anthropologists first told me that one of the reasons were breathing so poorly is because our airways have changed and they ve changed. Just Over the past hundred too three hundred years as it will be

it's tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of years to work, and they said well. If you don't believe me come on out here and we'll show you human skulls from two hundred years ago, one hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, will show you modern human skills. So I did that. I looked at hundreds and hundreds of schools and if you look at a school from theme: pre industrial food, all those skulls have straight teeth and they have a pronoun thick face: okay, every single one of them all of our ancestors. every single one of us all of our ancestors had straighten all of them. if you look at modern humans today, ninety percent of us have some crookedness or deformation and our mouths. So if people don't believe this, if they think it some crazy hypothesis, look at an old school and look in the mirror, and How the hell did this happen? how the hell did this happen, and how's it affecting us. In so many ways. how did it develop of how did the holes appear and air sinuses gets smaller was at brought about

diet or was it what about by exercise or what? What caused it in egg. That's the one thing I couldn't get straight in my mind: the inciting incident for this. Mess you can pin point the exact moment when our teeth went to Hell. And it's the exact moment when cultures adopted industrialized foods This is not me on some soap box against it us realize foods it is, a researcher going into this world and seen anthropologists and scientists who her and scientists who have died, humanity this for the last hundred years, the mom a culture, gets industrialized food within the first generation, their kids, teeth or crooked. After that about seventy percent of the population is crooked teeth after that eighty percent after that look around. That's us now. Ninety percent of us have crookedly Can you define industrialized food sure so

industrialized food. If you look at the food that all of our ancestors aid, especially hunter, gathers look over there, in greeting meet their cooking. It mostly hi there eating roots berries, all that stuff and then you start looking at food of early farming cultures and its pretty whole re. This whole natural foods, and then you look at it estralla zation, especially the industrial revolution. We got really good at pudding, sauce, in jars putting stuff and can in wheat of being the germ and the bran off of rice see just how policy white rice our teeth went to hell and we also had a ton of different health issues We also had a ton of different health issues like rickets stir. it taking over england who was called the you know English disease. It was so prevalent, Yet again, this is not a hypothesis. You can document this, and people have done that so our food lead to a dental, sorted

Calamity and did that long running of the face- was that about ultimately by the food, or did that led to the shrinking of the airways that, further exacerbated the problem. so smaller mouth, smaller airway and one happens with the mouth when the air. and the face don't grow properly. The upper palette over your mom Their tends to grow up instead of out an amazing thing. Looking at these ancient schools, they have these huge palate and they're all flat. If you look at the majority modern humans today, the upper palette grows up when it grows up. A king impede the or flow in the nose. So it takes away real estate from the nasal cavities along with that with the smaller mouth you have less. room at the back of the mouth, mrs, when the recent by so many people snore and have slovakia. So the reason

that this will happen. It's not just because of the food, even though that the primary driver soft process food, Didn't have enough nutrients in him, but mostly they did not require hard, masticate, chewing, especially in our early years, without constant chewing the faces don't grow properly, not what happened so It's almost like. We stopped exercising our mouths and all of the- atrophy that you would expect to follow that car The neglect, like any other muscle, It was inevitable great summary there I should have just said that: that's exactly what happened and the thing is. This is very important when you're younger, but it's it's so important. When you're older, I mean you think, go to a german everyone's working out every little micro muscle of their body, but no one's paying attention to the muscle

all the college and the tissues that deliver energy for you to work out and that's the mouth and there or exercises for the mouth that have been shown to significantly decreased snoring and sleep up, because your toe mean that must, you're toning that airway these have been around for decades and people just don't seem to have got the message. Well, I'm leaning in right now, because I know a few hundred thousand of our listeners, her leaning in and theirs aiming to words. Do tell how can I stop myself from snoring? How can I stop my bedmate from snoring prefer not to murder him or her, but surely somewhere between murder, and me just leaving, there must be, something that can be done I put on my doctorate hat and prescribe something. That's gonna help everyone everywhere right now get rough sleep. Bosnia can't do that? I'm not gonna. Do that. What I can say is everybody's different everyone breed,

slightly differently. Everyone has a slightly different breathing dysfunction for a lot of people. That dysfunction is in the back of the mouth and in the throat they sleep. Albania, where the tongue vault back they snore sounds like that. So and take you through these because they're pretty gross to watch, and I don't think this would make for a very good many gross to watch, and I don't think this would make for a very good audio programme. Just as some sort of tongue going up and down side decide, you can find them there freely available online. There called oral. fair and geo exercises, and all these are or exercises for the tongue and for the mouth and mile functional therapists, which is getting very huge. These are trainers for your mouth and they were, specifically with kids but they also work with adults. I know it seems so stupid that we need a trainer for amounts as well, but talk to someone who's been snoring for forty years. You know on the level ok

I want to talk about the experiment that you ve since become famous for, but before that I just want to cut mean touch on this idea that, your passion for the topic mean? I know a lot of researchers and a lot of writers and a lot of very smart people who fall passion in the work and then there's this other group of people who have equality to a degree, but they also have a personal connection to the labour. Your face, looks a little like mine. You have a long guiche face. It looks like I have a where they call it like adenoids knoll, almost six We re at face so I breathe through my mouth for forty five. It all just makes perfect sense now, but anyway, I'm I'm just wondering what Personal circumstances might have brought you to the research yeah when you go out and become a science journalist. The last thing you're going to do is spend when you go out and become assigns journalist last thing, you're gonna do is spend a decade or less than you think. You're gonna do spend a decade researching. Something is simple

mundane is breathing and this was not something that I you know a destiny, nation. I wanted to reach in my career. What happened was suffering from a bunch of breathing problems. The started purse where I was workin out. All the time with serbia was boxing. Doing marshall Votes die was sleeping rioters, even the right foods- and I just was having constant bronchitis when I went to my doctor, I was given like a bronchodilator anna, I went to my way this was given like a bronco dilate, her antibiotics and sent on my way. This one for years and years those things work like the drugs work. But after a few looking at me as I was talking she's like I think, you're breathing a little off. You should check out a breeze, who was looking at me as I was hockin she's, like I think, you're breeding, so little off, you should check out a breathing class and ideas, I'm in san francisco. So those are a dime a dozen here and I

That a very weird experience- and I didn't include this in the book because I don't want to say what happened to me- it's going to happen to everybody else, but I have not had one breathing issue. Any respiratory infections, since and I've learned how to breathe properly, not one, how long did it take you to learn how to breathe properly. How long did it take you to learn how to breathe properly it was the awareness part that was the real driver. So once I learn what breeding could do for you as far as meditation and relaxation, I said well, can normal breeding do for us? How can that improve our health? So I had very bad breathing habits and sharp was amount breather. My whole life, I'm sure, was about breather. When I was a kid I would, wake up every single night and drink a huge thing. A water like what I have read here, because my mouth was constantly drawing a beginning cavities. I thought this was normal, because everyone else I knew was suffering from the same so it took me months and months to learn to become an obligate nasal. Breather

and to learn to read through my nose at night as well took a very long time Oh, did that personal journey, proceed your experiment at stanford and like how did you come too Ty, those two things together, somewhere in my question. I the answer to why your book is so compelling because I don't think you can fake enthusiasm merely for research, She had to live it. Clearly, you have. We did right through the experiment. Maybe should tell us what the experiment There were two of em right sure, so Everything I just mentioned eu happen. Probably ten years ago, and I did not even think magazine was going to want a story about breathing, and I was told this from editors and when I mentioned this to my agent, I said you know, I think that there's When I mentioned this to my agent, I said you know. I think that there is something that this could be an interesting story.

That's the worst idea. I've ever heard, so I forgot about it and years went by. I got better wait just because I was curious about my own body and improving my own health, and it wasn't until years and years and years after that, once I talked to other researchers who had been doing the same thing for decades and had a laugh. other researchers who had been doing the same thing for decades and had a lot of science to back it up that. I realized that with a larger story here. So that's how it all came about I couldn't be more delighted to welcome black rifle coffee, couldn't be more delighted to welcome black rifle coffee to the podcast or more enthused too personally endorse their deletion. brand of coffee. This is the sound of me sipping from my second cup this morning. absolutely delicious. I started the day with a k round and then moved onto a thin blue line, can't decide which I like better. full disclosure, though I should confess that

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get yourself some fresh. did freedom delivered straight to your door? It's coffee with a little culture on the side, or maybe it's the other way around it away. I like rival, coffee good to the last bang, bang owl, and so, when you decided to my company when you decided to my company is called lab rat productions because so much of What I've done over the years is required me to assume the identity of some kind of a guinea pig, and I if thou loud, when I got to the part in your book when the researchers at Stanford said: look, we can't ethically do what We want to do in order who prove the difference between mouth breathing, a nasal breathing

and you essentially sorry well on I'll. Do it. that's what happened once the real book research got under way. I knew the difference of maltreatment, nasal spray than we have known this for decades and decades, but as a journalist I'm sure you can relate to this. I wanted to get down and dirty I want to get inside of it to try to understand it, a little better and I had a strong arm, Rinaldi's their j edgar niagara, who is the chief over analogy research at Stanford. After talking with for months and months. I said you really need to do an experiment, as you mentioned, he said, ethically, I don't do this. I volume tiered. We me with pay for the study Stanford I support this either, which had stamford trust me with not the cheapest thing in the world and the man x amount of people we could do was to people, it's not perfect. He no end to it does prove that much but allowed me to truly understand what these people were complaining about for years and years about having chronic obstruction, and I learned valuable lesson It was you and a guy from, but

Paul under nor were somewhere over there and you. Basically, yeah not too proud of the ten day. People need to understand what for ten days. Two proud of that. At this ten day. People need to understand what, for ten days well, when you think about a people, think that this was their like. Oh that's, you know some jackass stunt or whatever look at the amount of people suffering from chronic obstruction. Ok, chronic sign a scientist, chronic rhinoceros and we people mouth breed right now we were just putting ourselves in new position that mill in tens of millions. Hundreds of millions of people suffer from all the time, but we were Accordingly, we recording what happened, so the experiment was set up in two phases: the first phase with ten days of only mouth breathing, so yeah, we jam it whole bunch of crop up, our noses had bandage over that in doubt,

kids, who are mouth breathers and it was so much worse than we knew it wasn't gonna be fun right. That was a given, but my god it was terrible. It was so much worse than we ever thought. I was going to say It was terrible. It was so much worse than we ever thought. I was getting I can't even imagined it because I can't fall asleep if my nose and clear I know that I breathe through my mouth when I say but times, but I cannot fall asleep unless I blow my nose before I go to bed every night, just to make sure that its clear cause, I know, will fall asleep if it's not so I can't Imagine ten days without that. Talk to a neighbour talk to the kids in the neighborhood talk to people who have severely deviated septum talk to me. Who have inflamed terminates. I mean this is a huge percentage of the population and they're not breathing through their noses ever for years. In you, decades in decades, so

First thing that we notice, which was really frightening, is I went from not snoring it all zero to snow in very first night hour and a half A few days later, it was snowing for four hours a night Anders this poor guy from Sweden who came over here and wanted to do this felt really guilty about it. He was snoring like five or six hours a night we recording ourselves and it sound like we were being strangled to death, which we were on our own bodies but chuck. Here's the difference, it's the frog nose boiling water like for me, I breathe fine till I was eighteen, broke, my nose one so good. Broke it again, at twenty got worse broke it again at twenty three, twenty four really bad And then you just get used to going to bed feeling like there's a tiny little man up there with a concrete, mixer and you're. Just completely walled off its strong ordinary what you can adapt to, but with joy Did he flickr switch like very, very quickly

What else happened to your body over the course those ten days well the o two went down. Cortisol went up, I mean just basically across the board. We were doing a bunch of other measurements, because we know that poor sleep, especially sleep, physically across the board, we were doing a bunch of other measurements, because we know that poor sleep, especially sleep abner, can really lead to. diabetes and sugar problems and increase risks. heart disease, and as we were going through this, we just literally felt our bodies breaking down because, of course they were They were struggling to breathe all day long and especially at night, when you must be restoring and growing. We were just waking up all the time and you think about twenty percent of the population with sleep apamea. That's doing this as well: What is the difference fundamentally between You analogies earlier to food, but I want I mean it seems more like the way we breathe.

And the way we eat theirs you'll parallel there, but how different is the air that goes into your lungs through your mouth versus through your nose, massively different? So when you taken air through your nose, your You made a fine it your filterin it that's what all those structures are in your nose. They filter the air they help remove bacteria and even viruses. Condition the air so that by the time that air reaches your lungs, it is so much easier to extract oxygen and it's less injurious to your lungs. If your breathing through your mouth, try to do this when it's really cold out, we feel what happens to your lungs. You also have to said, are all the toxins and pollutants in the environment. I live in a city that stops all over mould dust, the and more with no filter you just taking this. Air in and out of your mouth all the time. That is going to the lungs which can lead to increased risk of respiratory infections and it all

makes it harder for us to get occident breathed into the mouth. You wrote and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said mouth breed, It's absolutely right, if you think about how long it takes me to take a big nasal breath here,. absolutely right. If you think about how long it how long does it take me to take him out Beth, that's at the same volume of air there. Second right. How long does it take me to take a mouth, the same volume of air there's, nothing blocking it so for a specific purpose and we have a mouth we can breathe out of it when we want, which is great, we have a backup system, use it right and we have a mouth we can breathe out of it when we want, which is great. We have a backup system, use it right. If ever you break your nose, which I did about three or four times just like you This doesn't mean this backup system should be used throughout. so ten days of hell. Ten days of research, ten days of.

So ten days of hell ten days of research, ten days of logging every What do you do for the next ten days? Do you limit the mouth breathing? get this crap out your nose, what do you do for the next ten days to limit the mouth breathing as much as you can to compare contrast, so we expected that final moment, when we went back to stamford removed every thing he took samples, I thought this is gonna, be just the celebratory awesome thing, but our noses were so messed up that took hours and hours for that obstruction to really clear, But the first thing I noticed is the very first night my snoring went down. Several hundred percent was down to about twenty minutes as opposed to four hours, and then, after that it was. We just shut our mouths. So when you're out, if you're not used to doing that, you can use a tiny piece of tape when you're working

shut your mouth. So when you add, if you're not used to doing that, you can use a tiny piece of tape when you're working at an office, we tried not to talk that much because, when you're talking your brain into your mouth a little bit and at night we just a little piece of tape? Another seems insane, but this is what a respiratory therapists at Stanford told us to do and that why are snoring, went down back to zero from for five hours and I to zero, both me and Anders, and is the one to have heard more from people that anything else shutting their mouth at night as transform the quality of their sleep Well, you can put me on the list part of why I got the surgery is. I have a couple recurring dreams, all of which involve various levels of claustrophobia, but them and throw it in the trunk or they're just left alone, to breathe through their nose? It freaked me out their hands tied their throated trunk or they're, just left alone to breathe through their nose it freaked me. so badly, because you might as well kill me.

Gonna, be able to breathe through my nose in my former life, and so when I The splints removed after a week of that The first thing I did James, I went to bed and I taped my mouth shut and I breathe all night through my nose, and I did that for the next. Maybe we can have an and I noticed more than anything else. I was waking up Five and a half six hours of sleep feeling completely rested, and that was new. Yeah? What's great about this and living in a modern age that we live in? Is there? Whoop band, I don't care what to use pulse oximeter, and this is what we did during the experiment, and this is what so many other people are doing. So it's one thing to feel great This is what we did during the expert, and this is what so many other people are doing. So it's one thing to feel great in the morning. That's good news, that's where you want to be its another to see the data back up everything and this

a big mystery to the people course study this stuff. I mention this: do they sleep doctors. and its manfred there, like, of course, you idiot, you know, of course, you're gonna be sleeping better. Your bodies, gonna be more rested if you breathing the way were naturally designed to breathe, which is through the nose in and out through the nose, the imp. Act on Joe citizen from your researches, obviously the fat part of the bat and the most em. Wooden thing. But what about athletes performance athletes whose entire mean everything start and finishes with their ability to control their breath. You see these guys roy being in gasping, you know, does gasping and you right in your book about a story of a guy who trained more or less sclusively and he's break all kinds of records and looks almost relaxed at the finish line. His mouth is closed. I mean is that typical,

for people who have been doing this for years and years- and this is the very first thing that they fixed with their athletes- you would think that athletes would be the best breeders in the world. They aren't there's a reason why track runners have a higher incidence of asthma would be the best breeders in the world. They are there's a reason. My track runners have a higher and sense of asthma incur. Excited scientists and respiratory problems, because when you are young you can get away with it. You know you can put your body until it breaks, but what these guys are doing, is assessing breeding and then teaching people to convert to nasal breathing. So there are some levels zone for zone fi when you're really going forward that you can do well to mount breathing, consciously take a big breath of air reset yourself, otherwise we should be considering the pathway through which you breathing air, as differ gears to your exercise and all the way His own for, as such Actually, when you're jogging, you should breathing in and out of your nose. It is

We reduce recovery times and is going to increase your athletic performance, and this has been studied again for decades decades but I'll- be damned walk around san francisco count on one hand, how many of the hundreds of runners every single one is everything they do and you're not doing your body any favours. By doing that, I find it really hard to do died recently, visited mike and took his walk with him in. There said that, at the end of the walk, theirs really steep hill, he's just breathing out of his nose. I dunno how he's doing it because he didn't use he's just kind of like he's is breathing out of his nose. I don't know how is doing it because you didn't used to be able to do it. But how do you tell someone? What do you have to do? What do I have to due to get to where he is without having a surgery, baby steps. you now as westerners. We just want to go and kick everything's ass immediately. Use hard to be both here about a new diet may go from vienna to plead out in a single day like this isn't working for me. So

a slight with breathing. You have to go very slowly. If you ve had a habit, thirty years it's gonna take a really long time to break that habit and slowly acclimate your body to this. You have to go under this slowly Try nasal reading for five minutes ago. than ten minutes a day and twenty minutes a day, try nasal, breathing walking and try nasal, breathing, slowly jogging what I heard from a few different breeding therapists and athletic trainers. They said the moment your breeding dysfunctional when you're working out you have to back off- go back to breathing, normally and then slowly push that envelope slowly and can take months and months for some people took months for me, but and you convert you'll never go back, is fair rule of thumb to say that if your exercising two degree where you can- breathe through your nose, then you're, probably exercising beyond your blood. Legal means you're too far over your skis and other words now

Necessarily I that, once you are well trained at nasal breeding, you'll know that limit, but for peace all who just default to mouth breed too soon, which is the majority of athletes. They need, We better trained to do that. There is a time and place for everything like when we laugh. We breathe through our mouths right on breathing through my mouth. A bit as I'm talking to both of you and that's fine, What I'm really talking about is the majority of the time that ninety five percent of the time and most to exercise, especially if you do an interval training be tween. Those wraps, don't sit there and huff and path through your mouth. That's a moment to bring your heart rate back down, breathe through your nose, get more oxygen toll of your hungry cells to chuck part of the answer, is you kind of have to embrace the suck? You know it? uncomfortable. to feel like you need air and deliberately withhold it from

body, it goes against every sin. It goes against every bit of muscle memory that you have, but you're not going to pass out right, you're, not going to fall down because you're not getting enough air. In fact, so Much of what you talk about James is not contradictory, but dichotomy. Us, like there's a chapter in your book, more, where you argue very persuasively that we need to get more air into our bodies, stat and the next after is called less, were you argue very persuasively that we are breathing way too much and at a glance, two things seem like the work of a madman, but I'm at a place. There is no cookie cut her advice really for any of this, and that's what makes the books such a challenge. I think.

Yeah. Tell me about it and that's why this book took so long, because I was hearing those two different things from different people and then I was looking. I was like damn. They both have great benefits, so who's right and it turns out they're all right, but it's all about context when I'm in about less The vast majority of us are breathing too much by breathing, less your breeding normally and you. ought to be breathing. Normally it when I'm how come up breathing more that's for a very short amount of time. You wouldn't go to the gym for twenty four hours a day right, you wouldn't be sitting there doing. Curls that would destroy. You these more exercises whim, half method, coon Delaney property of whatever you want to call. It are designed to be done for about fifteen to twenty minutes very controlled state and they, stress your body out on purpose. Just like the gym stresses your body out on purpose when you leave?

the gym. When you leave these breathwork techniques, you feel extremely relaxed and calm, because you've gotten all your stress out So that's what that more breathing this for very short amount of time. You don't want to be doing at all day long would destroy you so then How do you discipline yourself? I mean from a chemical standpoint. We're talking about co2 in the bloodstream right. Exactly right, if I remember right the way, king assumption is, you need, to the more. What you get the better, but there some inverse thing going on visa view. The fact that we really need seo too as well and it's not actually the enemy at all, talk about another one of those contradictory things that I kept running up against. So we do need oxygen right. That's how ourselves operate and make energy very efficiently off of oxygen. But I kept here

from physiologists and other researchers. They said well, the only way to get accident is through co2 see you to get a bad around this too much of it in the atmosphere. There's too much of it the indoor environment can make people sick, but we need a balance of co2 and oxygen in our bodies, and this is very complicated. The biochemistry took me a couple months to get through it, but seo two is a messenger, for oxygen is occident in ears are bloodstream. It go, to where there is more seo to which his wife you work. Out your right arm right as are turning. There's more blood flow is gonna, be going there, because your producing more seo, too, is a very smart mechanism developed in our bodies and me some of us. I don't know say most of us are probably half of us have a deficiency of co2, don't have enough co2 and our bodies or bodies are constantly having to work a little harder to get ox. Do isn't seo too what we exhale though it is, what

We accept that is the metabolic waste products, we're on quote yeah. But there's a reason we're producing it. In our bodies we have a hundred times more co2 in our bodies than we do ask do we. Can often very slowly very carefully. So in the end, this further about twenty percent oxygen and when we exhale we exhale about fifteen percent, or should so only take in a quarter of the amount of oxygen in each breath and our bodies do this for a reason, if you were to huff and puff on pure oxygen right now, you would die after a few days of just taking and pure you didn't, because you have a deficiency of seo too so super important, ok, but so is socio too, and researchers knew this hundred fifty years ago and again this is more research. That's just been swept under the carpet. dude dude, dude, dude dude and

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about there's a lot of counting in the book right because you know heart beats to a rhythm and most of us breathed to a rhythm, and just the notion of deliberate we trying to hail to factor of two verses. Your inhale that's a game! You can play jack, it's a game! Anybody can play if you're gonna, breathing through your nose for a fork out exhale foreign aid and see what happens over the course of five minutes, it's interesting james. Interesting- and it's also, this is just our biology. This isn't some new technique that someone's trademarked somewhere you can. place your hand on your heart and take that short inhale. In exile very slowly and you feel your heart rate lorry. This is not some placebo trick. This is or bodies operate. So, if you Take that logic and then scale it out. You're like huh unstressed out for want to go

sleep. What will happen I breed this way for a few minutes You may lowering your heart rate, your delivering more oxygen to your brain, calming you're nervous system down. So this is not crazy. New aid to stop this. Just basic physiology You don't believe me look at your house. Rate variability as you breathe in these slow rhythms. Look at your blood pressure before and after, and you can see for yourself It made me wonder, or at least think about the old yo when can't fall asleep. I actually now literally count sheep It sounds ridiculous, but I count them. To a rhythm with my breath and so sheep go over the fence, as I'm breathing in, and I make sure twice as many sheep go over the fences I'm breathing out and I just kind of play. with that and I dont know if it's the oxygen or the ceo to the tagging, an impact or the that. I'm focusing on something that is,

the bad news of the day the headlines of that counting there's some. Being almost magical were at least mystical about the power. The count. You know that is the most charming image I have compared to the image that we started off with his conversations this one in my mind, because it is so pleasant, so how ever You want a count, however, you want to exhale longer whatever for you works for you. There's one technique that I found has worked very well for me and millions of other people. It's too inhaled afore hold for seven exhaled to eight. If you notice what's happening there, you're holding your breath or your exhaling three quarters of the time when you do this, you send your brain embody. Messages to calm down possible to do this, if your panicking right. So your Tricking the brain to say I'm in a safe space, it's time to relax.

And while famed doktor did the youtube video on this has been viewed like you know, five million times, but this is a great trick that I've heard from various researchers and again you can. If you have wearables, you can see what happens and see what happens to your heart rate, your blood pressure and more your you have a demeter. This view we even kind of live in this space? right. You don't strike me as an excitable guy and I'm. Thinking of, like you, ve mentioned meditation once or twice, but you have also mentioned that this isn't not that hippy dippy grab. This is psychology. This is physiology this biology, and yet you know I about the chanting. I think about the rituals that are in called katy in so many religions and I think about the past, our of repeating a thing and the rhythm of the thing and the way breath in for

that to forget they are done. Offer was your book. I thought, you actually made a comparison to the rosary with some of these more new Agee kind of approaches to call bring down. Before there were watches and clocks and timers on our phones. How did people keep time? How did they keep rhythm while accounted a lot and backup. Pouring so they develop poetry and prayers that had a very specific rhythm. This allows us to be able to memorize things more easily, which is why all of these old poems were in them and they arrived. and these rhythms. It turns out, locked in to this. What is called a coherent breathing rate. This is not my hypothesis, either. Twenty years ago, researchers we're looking at this. They were comparing the rosary to buddhist me interest to cuba, montrose to christian prayers, to jewish prayers.

They said, my god. These are all locking into this rate of about five to six seconds in hell and then he recite whatever birth, o money, pod me home or even recite, the rosary or whatever, and by doing it in these cycles, this coherent takes over your body, so when people say prayer heels it does. probably has a lot more to do with the breathing pattern that you're doing then the work but who knows, and so by breathing in this pattern about five to six seconds in five to six seconds out cultures have been doing for thousands of years is extremely restorative to the body What's so interesting about that is I mean. Obviously, you can't exhale without an inhale, but you can't talk. During an inhale and so it's the exhaust or the exploitation. If you will those too things coming together in a fight count or an eight count or whatever it is, now that is a hack.

the lower your blood pressure. If you can affirmatively changer physiology with an exhale now we're getting into that space, where the monk who said cross legged in the snow somehow manages to me. The snow around him by his breathing and that's a pretty need trick. Yeah, and that was something that a lot of people called bs on for a long time. They said. Okay, I can see how breathing can influence your nervous system function. I can see how it can influence blood pressure and heart, right now that, but when people in this started about a hundred years ago, then, when above hippies went over to india and tibet, in the sixtys and seventys said: there's these guys in the winter time they stripped down and they sit nude in snow and they melt a circle around themselves in snow in winter, sounds like complete bs until harvard benson at harvard medical school went out there found these guys and tested them. Centres all over their bodies, and we can act

firstly do this, so I'm not saying you know Joe schmo sitting at home. Right now can do this the six years and years of learning these texts, but it shows you like that. through human potential that locked within us when we start to understand and utilise her breathing mind boggling I'd like to talk a little bit too about the guy, the singer, the vocal coach. What was his name Carl style style this guy? I mean chuck, and I talk a lot on this podcast about a vocal coach and a teacher we had in high school name fred king Enormous lung capacity everything was about being on the breath. You know every good singer than I ever known, two things, a great constitution and rum, workable lung capacity and while three things hell of a diaphragm but

talk about style a little bit and his impact not just on athletics but on the medical community as really a vocal teacher. This was a guy who was a vocal teeter. Acquire conductor, get really good at re, teaching singers had a thing so good that all the squires, winning these awards. and he learned something that he thought the key to good singing Wasn't me inhale the inhales easy everyone can inhale. It was a fool exe, There is a lot of us when we exhale we stop shorter than our diaphragm really wants to go. If you forced herself to exile. the diaphragm is able to push weigh up higher, so he was able to teach these singers the abyss b to really flex their diaphragm more so they could.

descend the diaphragm, which allow them to inhale as the easy part, but really too then pushed that diaphragm backer. They got better at singing, they got a lot more volume. Their tone got lot better. He got so good at this that he went to the men opera in new york and retired opera singers were already pretty good at singing and they were transformed by this After doing this for about a decade, so Homologous got wind of his work and said: hey. We have some of the worst breeders in the world. There called emphases x in their filling up our hospitals. We have no idea what to do with them. Do come over here and see what you're breeding practices can do for them, and he stop everything and said he. I spent seven years in these hospital grief that's. The cliffhanger read their yeah yeah, we obviously cannot leave it. There are vocal coach goes into some of the most esteemed hospitals to its end, We do what what doctors have been on That's what we're doing, which is help people with

emphysema literally. Get back on their feet, this is how he did it. No drugs, no oxygen, even though oxygen for emphasis is very helpful and drugs are very helpful. Getting is any that he used slight, massage he's vocal exe. sizes. Any use these very long, exhalation breathing techniques where he had. These people count one two, three four five, six seven eight and ten through Over and over and the more you do that the higher the diaphragm lives they took x rays of these people and they found that the Diaphragms were hardly moving. I have some of these films hardly moving at all, which is why they had to breathe with their shoulders whenever we see some breathing with their back or their shoulders, they have lost that die from attic movement, so just by allowing them to exercise their diaphragm. These people who were left for dead what are the hospital and live normal lives and I've heard some of them. Since the book has come out in the shade,

Full thing here is when style left the hospital system. All of his techniques completely disappeared. emphasis x in many ways, are being treated exact, in the same way, they were seventy years ago I was reminded of the story of we'll chamberlain. Maybe the greatest but couldn't hit free throws for crap until one day he finally said ok and he did the granite shot between the legs wet night. Percent, but the next hey, stop doing it because you look silly and optically. It just didn't work for him. Why wasn't that embraced by the medical community and what made him a controversial figure that was a really good analogy. I'm going to totally steal that for future take it. I stole it from Malcolm Gladwell. So now it's on you so for the same exact reason Why was such a good analogy style was

of really weird dude he'd, where these strange suit with ass gods and out at this very particular manner. I've looked at his therapies and no wonder hospitals once they actually saw at once. You start opening. The doors were like no viewed dude atta here, even though he was completely healing people. He also thought he was hoped there aren't so I'll relatives out there, but things are pretty air guy work. He believed that he was the only one who truly was born with this gift. So when he died about twenty years ago, a lot of these techniques died with them. The closest person. I could find him with someone who worked with him for over twenty years. And, I said, will show me the magic. She said he never taught me the magic I picked up. Some thing: things here in their. Luckily, there is one video of him doing a thing which I happen to get my hands on, so we do know it s not even that complicated. What does yoga do stretches out the rip cages ray

and it allows the castles become loser. Would a breathing exercises? Do they allow the diaphragm to ascend upwards, more so think that someone could reinvent this and help a lot of people, and I hope so in doing this right now I do too isn't it funny how disappear the ability. so often accompanies visionaries and people. Who really have something of critical value to offer, but either get in their own way or are just ass of some other quality It makes it hard for the average person like he was a pretty hanzi guy. Like you can't talk about diaphragm it. I know a lot of vocal coaches. I had a guy given me vocalist years ago. His hands are all over me like he stuck his hand down the front of my pants to demonstrate. You know this area versus that area, and I'm thinking, hey, hey, whoa,

boundaries light a candle, firstly know somethin, but guys like style. They don't care they don't seem to care about how their perceived they just have the facts. And if you can't embrace him and run with them or shame on you. I think, that's another really good point. Is these guys seem to get in front of themselves? They seemed. Stopping themselves for some reason, either you're too greedy with their knowledge or they get too arrogant. Are they just don't want to share for some other reason? But there is also the other thing where you have medical. stably schmidt, that's very certain specific ways and things are on and step ice a b, c d in it. That's how we treat people. We have someone coming in in doing something in a completely different way. Its sometimes threat. two doctors who tried to kill, stay out of hospitals, even though he was coming curing. These people repeated

if they tried to kick him out. Also they're like how the hell are we going to scale this out to have this one guy come in for two hours a day. Every day, dealing with this one patient, you can't scale that in a huge healthcare system and that's the other problem. Do you think there's something to learn from this guy? HU, I meant to say ninety nine point. Nine percent of people listening right now have never heard of, but who, essentially prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that emphasis could be cured in a non traditional way. Do you think this? something about that that rhymes? today with anti the presence or ss? Are I or vaccines, scepticism or you don't Anything that the sea seems to be embraced. His truth is now being either looked at The super healthy level of scepticism or not being looked at,

with any level of scepticism. Kindly followed. Yes right, I didn't think of it when I read it in your book, but I think that's probably why subconsciously brought it up. The truth of the thing always seems to be just under the surface. Right now and again. Sorry to filibuster, but that's why before when I said you're com guy. That's why I really wanted to talk to you, because I think you're sitting on a tin your box of life changing information, but you very circumspect in the way you share it and your hesitant almost to say look. I can change you. Maybe because you know that that level of evangelism is not wait for sale, anymore try to make it really clear and the book that a journalist, I'm a researcher, I'm gonna tell you what I learned from other people, but I'm not gonna make up my noon theories.

Can it be the one on a stage with a huge silences breathe in the background? Other people are really good at that and they're changing people's lives right, that's their position in life. My job is to come in and be skeptical. Everybody that includes the knowledge that we thought was Absolutely right solid in medicine, and that also includes new weirdos. I've talked to all of rank and I listened to all of them. I see where the data comes cannot be measured, can be measured over and over again with something like emphysema. Technically- and this is where style gotten trouble technically emphysema cannot be cured. that too. She was damaged in the lungs in never comes back what can do, however, is access, the other ninety five percent of the lungs. And you can use that. So you don't even need the part that has been damaged because you have all this other lung tissue to you so

it gets into semantics, and this is where a lot of people get in trouble because they say I cure myself of asthma cure myself of them seem technically That's not true, it feels like a cure to them and that's the hope. Are they healthier? Are they able to function normally sounds like clear to me as well, but we can't use those words as far as why this message is in getting out to everyone? I think that some of it has to do with how simple it is, but really like convoluted answers to it makes it sound more scientifically researched rate, especially food, how many different there's two forty different supplements, you're supposed to be taking the florence- is a protein during this me only of six ounces of fat. During that you bring it on down. Breathing is very simple: it's pathetic that we have to. We learn how to do this thing in the natural environment. If you look at indigenous cultures, they don't to re how to breathe or exercise anything it'll have high blood pressure, heart disease or get strokes

in the modern world we have to re these things and re learning. Breathing is simple: it takes some people long time People need surgery like you, but for most people, it is a matter of creating different habits. My point in anyway, is that, yes, it's simple so too is washing your hands with soap in water, but there the time when the mere suggestion of doing such a thing got, example vice thrown into an insane asylum and essentially disowned by the entire matter, community, because in part what he was suggesting seemed awfully simple, but he was also suggesting that if you're not doing it, you are the proximate cause of lots of dead babies and Medical science doesn't doesn't pay it

It was also a badge of honor to cruise around completely covered in blood. This was like I want to work today. What are you doing? You no blood on your hands like you're, not really working. You can relate to this. My will. I covered in all kinds of dirt and other detritus, so I'd really bad blood Hopefully I haven't seen that up. Zodiac, don't do that one next season, that's not be good one. So if you talk about some advice and he went in dayton and died in an insane asylum and then thirty years later they like but I was actually right, sorry, but that happened to galileo. You know that happened a copernican I mean it happens to all these guys that are completely cost. In this paradigm shift, and a term get bandied around by a bunch of conspiracy theories and all that stuff. But if you look at the history of science, the revolutions.

What is happening here with breeding the same thing that happened with food is the same thing that happened with exercise the same thing that happened with cleanliness. There are these revolutions these cycles, and I think I was able to come in and research this book right when that wave was starting to break, because these researchers have been working on this stuff for decades and decades, but seems like people are now considering because poet, I think, a lot of it has to do with that Maybe breathing is important. The main way I get energy. Maybe that's an important thing for my health and and our This is of no miss all along I hadn't thought of that, but have the downs, in your estimation, impacted your research. and has it got more people thinking more specifically about all of this I think humans are very reactionary. So tell me: when we lose something: do we start to apply It's only do we get sick about where life I should get healthier right now

I think it was only when people lost the ability to breathe that they would, like my god, maybe breeding, important and it took some people weeks and weeks and months and months to get that ability back? So I think that awareness through covered has absolutely affected people's appreciation of what breathing us Why did you call your book? Bread, instead of brief. I had so many better titles, the mat all of them were next. By my editor, I mean I had some great stuff and after two months of arguing I finally gave up. I said: ok, you guys know to doing that your job and they called it breath and that's why I know you wanted another answer, but that's the truth. Well I mean, actually, I was just thinking about, amend it just any right, but it's the differ. between a noun and a verb? Basically, I think it was the ink costs

yeah the times are tough man this is six letter guy, not seven, let's not spring, for it. What was your preferred title. they to get into that were announced water under the bridge, but I want to do some more jazzy, more action packed, I said his just breath, but they thought as in the noun right, thing- was more power then just the verb, and we had a bit of back and forth like breathe was holding a little into the new age. He thanked for me and brat sound a little more solid. Is where I wanted to make sure that that messaging was getting through the readers that this was not a will, but that it was an actual science, but will the subtitle does the new science of a law start that parts good.

Great thing. When I had to fight for that, one is well, you did up, don't get in a policy people. This is when we end up spending their days and nights really. Do you think it's raining books? Forget it the battling over titles. Belief, do I know I know. Are you working on another one yeah it has nothing to do with breathing people keep saying like breath. Two coming out. I can't wait. He said it's never coming out. Maybe someone else is gonna ride it. But it's not going to be me this is it I'm revising the paperback which is coming out in about six months, so after a lot of conflicting messages I'm able to shove in about fifty new pages of all the stuff I've learned since the book has come out, so I'm putting in additional scientific studies and other conversations awesome I'm asking about the title, because we can call it episode. Anything you want and if it somehow makes you feel better to see the title you originally wanted preserve for posterity on itunes, I'm more than

happy to commit to that right now. In fact, I feel this certain symmetry in and justice to it. thank you for that honor. I will not get in the way, because I have a feeling. This is just going to be more emails with your production team on what they want to call it versus me. So I will bestow this honor to you guys, chuck it's up you, don't screw it up, ok gotta be real zingy. Now that's right. There chuck don't screw up to sixty three. What, leaning toward right now as I live in San francisco, breathing classes are a dime a dozen. you know, I feel terrible you're you're right across the water, Are you in town right now I am right in the middle of beautiful bernal heights. I'll tell you something mike back in the nineties. I so watch you an evening magazine everyone's life. How dairy jobs all this stuff? I said now, I'm an oh gee fan I turn on at seven o clock. You beat

talking about. You know the latest col stoka, Hata or something was awesome. So I was there early and often will appreciate that the Kalis toga hot tub thing happened. because my bosses realised that the wraps that malone I were doing as a part of every show could occur from any place, and it was A question only a matter of time until his civil, why don't we send them someplace where people we'll pay to have them and that was the beginning of the end. That's when evening kind of went from this charming little show about the comings and goings of people in the bay area to hay tonight We're coming from futon world and so you saw calistoga, because I went into my boss's office one day and said: look I don't mind, and horrid ourselves out deal to keep the show on the air, but futon world come on. We'll call it

your bags friday and every friday will go to a great resort somewhere in the bay area, and host the show from there and they bought it I kept us on the air for an extra year well I'll tell you. Those were actually my favorite episodes because you've had this smirk on your face, while you're doing it, you could see right through it and we would laugh so hard because we knew it was going on. I was writing magazine articles there. I know that gig the magazine doesn't have money to send you out to write about something so you're going to get the hotel. I get it. But that was the charm of it. So do not be ashamed. That is classic history right now and I'm sure someone's got them on vhs somewhere, oh their seared into my retina for sure, but in the spirit of alternative titles before that work signed off on pack, your bags friday, which was my fifth choice, I was pitched shameless plugs and everybody

he's gonna be a shameless plug where we pay the bills with a thirty minute commercial brought to you from some fabulous resort that I can ever afford to go too. But we went all of them. It was one of the greatest on apology A transparent scams of all time I make no apology for it. It kept the lights on and It was in the midst of that my asthma, the dirty job, evolved when I went into the sewer one day with I can remember that one of the few times in my life James, when I thought I'm glad I can't smell anything yeah. I was perfect for dirty jobs, I'll, give you some of my nose blood from the stamford experiment and whenever you're gone back down there is out there workers. I ll leave you with this too. I like to see him, but I sat right here seven days after I wonder, I still haven't around here says awfully disgusting, but I led face book no step by step

What my recovery was like It was rough. I had a rough seven days And I remove the splits on camera. Sitting right here. I still have I'm an auction them off for the foundation. What this year, I beg you, do that, although whatever and wrote a song about him. We'll have to play that on sat beside. Maybe I would love to hear it well. You know what you deserve to hear it, because without your book I dont get the sceptre plastic without the sceptre plastic, that guy doesn't right the song, which mentions fred king, my vocal mentor, who tied in very brilliantly to us now, and so there it is that's. The circle of life were looking for right there in fact, chuck we should play at the end of this podcast that guy song, that weird and that interesting, let's do it well, I will,

double down on that for these circle of life here without you being on evening magazine having all those fund adventures, I probably would have never quit my corporate job, because I'm seeing this guy, I'm like god that looks so fun. I know it's work, but he's Can it work making it happen? and that was right before I started writing freelance, and I mean that so that was something that got me up off my ass to quit. A very good pain, respectable job to become the scumbag. today. So thanks for that, but you know in defensive scumbags. What was it like seriously because I'm I think the freelancer is I hope, for the future- and I think this state is affirmatively aligned against freely. its work against jobbers for the life of me. I think it's one of the big

mistakes are politicians have ever made and I'm wondering where you're coming from it does have much to do with breath, but, my god, the stupidity of it, takes my breath away. Yeah. So that was one of the reasons I had to transition. an end writing books. I always wanted to write books, but that's one the reasons that really cut my my my budding do it, because I was writing freelance for seventy amazing san francisco chronicle for their there Article magazine on sunday for outside magazine, minister, all over the place, the coolest you're descent on these missions one month in and out get the story come back. It's really a few months later in and there it is impossible to make a living doing that, especially in san francisco. You know how expensive it is here and so look. Writing is like a very long magazine article, but it takes years and years and years for it to come out of the same. Are it is more stable, but I could not agree with you more with the politicians of doing freelancers like we're, not bad people

Why are you making it impossible for us to do our jobs? Maybe they just want us all to get very stable, boring jobs. That's the only reasoning I could see to it were contributing in a lot to the economy. I just don't understand why they made it almost impossible to do this for living well. Look. I made people's health don't break for writers and hosts and actors, but Where do you see what happens to goober? Where do you see what happens to trucking right now truckers there, their own company there their own llc there simply allowed to function, they need become an employee and man I know we're far afield from the topic, but it worries me to death Yeah me as well, I think, to have the freedom to work. The hours you wanna work is a real privilege you have to work really hard to get to that point and then to have that stripped away from you for no logical reason, I think, is a crime, so state legislators, Senate congress

People of your listening change this it's not fair and I think the world would be a better place if there's more freelancers, going out there in finding weird interesting stories, amen, Is it fair to say that breath wouldn't have come to pass without that background, without that approach I don't think it would have an think I really cut my teeth: learning how to get inside of a story, doing freelance ready for magazine an understanding that you really can't take anyone's word for it? You have to go out and talk to a zillion different people met adventure. I love: I'm getting so deep into these worlds, and now books allow you to do that for years at the time? I'm not very very social person while you're doing this, but it allows you just really immerse yourself in a different world and to find things that you find interesting and to have other people find those things interesting, as in a real honour, speaking, do should people read that when first, what does it matter.

You re whatever you want. That book was looking at the human connection to the ocean from the very surface, to the very bottom of this so, it is relating to breathe. A little bit during the research of that book is where I started hearing these crazy stories of these doing all this stuff and that's what really sparked mining. Dressed in a real way to pursue this. His first book chuck it's like free, diving these guys who can hold their breath for you, no fifteen, and it's got out three hundred feet its and To make you think that were really like different species where there are different species or something I think we ve just been selling ourselves short, the last few hundred years of industrialization we're. convinced we can't do all these things, I need to eat three meals a day all the time right at this time. I need to be very specific. In my work patterns of this way. We become very pickled in our own juices, and if you Look in indigenous cultures like we were bad asses. That's how were here today because these

people knew how to be flexible and really to utilise their body and their metabolism in these different ways and ethics much of that is loss, but what's interesting is so much of the new horizon of health is how to get that and once you get that back, who would have guessed body gets healthier. New can overcome so many modern maladies. Can anybody learnt all their breath any the person learnt, hold your breath five, six minutes, half an hour I'll, get you holding your breath about three and a half minutes, maybe even for anyone in reasonable health, even I've seen. A lot of people were not very healthy. Were home their breath for five six minutes, while the credit were built to do this. We have reflexes that we have the same reflexes. The dolphins and wales have to do We just have an access them and so long we have to be reminded of how to use these things in our bodies follow along well

probably a good place to leave it. You ve written to amazing books to remind people of all sorts of things. I'm sure I'm not the first to point it out, but if you put them together, a bookshelf or a mantle. What you really have his deep breath I would recommend both of them. just my next book- needs to line up with that right It's gonna be called. The percentage is complete I'm so glad you made time for this. I appreciated and I'm in the city a bunch if you ever want to grab a cup of coffee. You know of people, Don't do that kind of thing here in our post covered world. I'm I'm certainly game I would love that. That would be awesome thanks a lot for having me geiss great questioned anytime. I well, let people know that they can check out your books, and your movie at em are james nestor dot com, Mr James Nestor, you ve earned it wait! A minute movie, wouldn't talk about a movie

yeah, there's a movie that didn't win an award or was nominated, the whale thing was that click on the ice alone. We are, we are short about whales, dolphins, communication, Therefore it is very interesting. I watch your ted talk on that as well, which was very good and made me think man, these whales are proof sleep pretty smart and we shouldn't be harpooner them. It turns out that there is a huge initiative up through the ted audacious prize. This group of researchers, which is awarded this last year, they have about five years the funding to go crack. The whale language right now what they're doing in the world so we'll see when the whale say you're, so james, you have to come back. I assume you read philbrick spoke years ago for the sake of absolutely I don't know about you, but that affirmatively changed the way I think, about wales and the ocean, and I never know when to end these conversations, but this does bring it full circle, because that was the story right

there was so much history in that and so much knowledge, but fundamentally that was story of moby dick and that's what the ten books. When people ask me what should I be reading, it's always on the list. Completely agree with you and after what we ve done to wales, the act that some of these wells were round. Their relatives were being hunted. They can live seventy eighty years. They now allow us, when you freed I've with whales to come, face to face with these animals that can kill you in ten different ways, and yet they come up and try to communicate with you. It does show with the chose me at least who is the real evolve species here who has been around the longest and who has to tee to we're about how to be a good citizen of this planet sometime in the next year, James nestor we'll be back to tell us all. He knows about wales, which I am sure will be a third book deep breath whale. we'll figure it out folks. Only in the meantime, here's September's amazon modems september

scroll rooms by build do moss that's the so oh I forgot bout the somewhere here it is for the first time ever it's not a melody that you ve ever heard before, but France, it's gonna, stick with you, as will the lyrics we dedicate symptoms and scroll items to james Nestor.

from moss misses the drip drip needs the the screw. The.

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