It's zone over two hundred and sixty eight of the way I heard it, and this one is called a place for the place less, not exactly direct quote chuck but close. She has. What is it reference exactly well argued, the very special Selina Zito, who always has a place in our heart writes a column called. the middle of somewhere in the middle of somewhere. Yes, and at some point early on in the conversation you're about to listen to, you will hear her talk about the importance of geography and the importance of of moving for any number of reasons and the way in which she believes many americans today have become untempered free their origin. I think she's talking about a time when everybody had a place, but now many people feel place less

And I just thought it was a nice turn of phrase. So I've turned it into the de facto title of this episode which, by the ways, I think, probably much much better than the title. Well, we'd have to be: wouldn't it now just kidding yeah, But what this is really about is the article that she wrote where she quoted you multiple times. I believe it's called pencil, and feel left out by Biden student loan policy, which is about the debt forgiveness. That's going on and it gets all spicy? Doesn't it yeah? It does and to be clear. This is not a conversation simply about that article, but what happened was the policy came out and, as you've no doubt heard, people with college debt are being relieved to the tune of ten to twenty thousand dollars depending on your income? A lot of people are upset by this and

killer people who went to college and paid off their loans and in my world the kinds of people that I've been featuring on dirty jobs in the kinds of people are foundation assists. They're. The ones essentially being asked to write a check, and so I wrote about this on facebook, it turned into a thing: Selena wrote an article and it's been read by millions of people, I'm not going to let this go for personal reasons, but I just thinks William is one of the most interesting people to talk to about this, because, as with everything else, she writes about she's got a front row seat to the issue, yeah she's, an excellent writer, and she always those two where the story is a main when we had our own the cast previously whenever that was seven eight years ago. I believe you have so it was called, don't fly over the story. That was an expression, he used because she always drives. She makes two trips across country every year.

One is east west one is north south correct shoes from appalachian me. That's her beat and social is written, hundreds, maybe the harris of appellation. The riches of witches western pennsylvania near pittsburgh, yeah she's off if you haven't heard ever before, you should really check out her column and just start with the conversation we're about to have right now. Selena is about as real as it gets she's, not a political animal, but obviously it's impossible to really write about anything today and not find yourself right in the think of it. So it's a fun conversation. We touch on a lot of different things, including my mom, whose become friends with Selina in the course of getting her book out. Theirself It's always energizing, really to talk to somebody like her she's, pretty fearless and the fao of a lot out what's going on and she doesn't poorer punches now she does

not she's a straight shooter but she's, a very fair writer. I mean the article that she wrote about student loan debt. I thought was pretty well Oh, it's, like you, said a lot of people read it. She got. I forget how many millions of clicks, but she got clicks. Alot click allow yeah, because this is an issue that affects everybody, so you know strap in there's some day. There's some school there's some coal mining, there's some forgotten notes from a baptist church. There is talk of mentorship, there's a lot of meat on this point. Killer bone or the least of which is not fiesta ware, which you're gonna learn about its, not fancy underpants. It's it's something a lot more useful, its episode never to sixty eight did you have a final thought chuck my brow,

This is empty as the days long MIKE. What manner without any further ado, it's a place for the places where chalk would be quite at home well right after this do do do do do do do do do do do well! Here's a terrifying little did, you know. Did you know the address, interest rate on credit cards is over nineteen percent right now. That's the national average interests trade overnight percent. That means lots and lots and lots of people paying way more interest than they need to don't don't do hat a credit card consolidation loan from light street can help you pay off your credit cards and lock in a low, fixed interest rate hollow well, they started five points, three percent, a pr with ato pay an excellent credit, you can borrow up to a hundred grand with. No These you get your money the same day right now for this Hundreds of this pod gaslight streams offering especial interest rate discount to save you even more when you go to light

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in the may I just met a girl certainly- and suddenly anybody ever saying that to you before. So that's really funny that you brought that because nice stirs name was a gnat, Marie answer West side story came out when I was a little kid and never seen that song Maria all the time- and I was like why There is all about Selina. Why is it maria, and so my dad would sing it to Selina? I had no idea I love that. I also of the fact that, like if you're in a room and its crowded- and you hear some one shot- your name- from across a crowded room celine it, like the odds, the odds that they're talking to you are extraordinarily high.

whereas for me MIKE right, a guy's yanked, and around up no one knows anyway, you're special. when I went to school, everyone say was mary, Margaret Mary, Elizabeth, very catherine, Mary Mary, I mean any then there's selina when everyone else in bologna, sandwiches and I had pepperoni in crusty prattle- at this hour, Still that way, selena still is special. I always ask this not always, but fine people with singular names. I always wondered: do you think your life would have been materially different? Had your name been betty or Elizabeth? Do you think you'd be doing what you're doing now travelling all over the back of beyond writing the way. You're writing. Yes. Now, if I didn't have his hair, that might be different I don't think my name is ever defined me, but because

from the inside out right. People like you think out looking from the outside in, but I think always be the same person not because I name, but because of like my family now my family to have been different and all the sort of wonderful, crazy, chaotic thing they went along with being a z, though I would probably have been different for folks, listen to this. For the first time, salinas Zito writes a terrific column called from the middle of somewhere, and we ve had around the pond ass. Before the first time I saw her was on it able new show, and I was on after you. I think I think it was Tucker carlsson and I, Just remember him saying Selina Zenos up next and I was walking out to get a cup of coffee before I came down here to zoom in I thought,

they help what will soon see. Don't look like a little. She have to say. So it was your name that pulled me back to my computer and then it was of course, your many prescient thoughts and observations on the human condition that made me a fan and chalk. Have you read her latest screen. I have yes, I wouldn't describe it as such is and how it has. Yes, I how it's the difference between a screen and a rant, then you do a great selina of making your point respectfully going too where the story is, but I'm talking now, of course, transitioning roughly right into the whole student loan thing which you have written about, and I detected a tone of exhaustion and are you can ing me in your words, was reading too much to them

now, you're, not reading to mention two other comes from personal experience, but even more so it comes from the people there cover ray, I live in western pennsylvania, sorted the paris of appalachia and why I cover goes from their out so across wes down south through appalache into taxes, all way out to Utah, colorado and the people I meet because of the way I report a trouble. small robots backgrounds, either old. U s rouser state rules to find what's going on in the country, because HU I cover and I'm not focused on readership and or people that I write about living in big cities. These are the people. that are most affected by what washington does no matter who is in charge, but this one was in

take your life very sort of trading, because it was the guy our men, doing what they do well, either best or worse there. They were choosing one section of the country to be successful, one out of the people to be more. Successful and to be rewarded. Yes, reward for why my parents would say would be bad behaviour and that is taking out alone relying on other people, often other people that already retain their alone. or never went and took out alone, but found success in their life and we're talking, of course, about student loans and the by the administrative decision to forgive student loves up to ten twenty thousand dollars as long as you don't, your salary doesn't exceed a hundred and twenty five thousand surely people that I cover either didn't go to college. Andorra went

we're, tradespeople or went to community college and all went on. for a year or guy a higher degree, but paid their bill, and now they turn around and looking at their neighbour or their nephew or their cars in europe the person that works at the insurance company getting a ten twenty thousand dollar bonus of rebate, anything its absurd. It is the theatre of absurd. As you know, This one had pretty close to home. For me, the people you're, describing in the beat that if embraced, are by and large, very similar to the people I featured on dirty jobs. Over the last twenty years, the people you'll find on how america works that is currently in production. Now and of course,

there is no greater corollary than to the seventeen hundred people, that my foundation has awarded work ethic scholarships to people who affirmatively do not wish to go to a four year university, but want to learn a trade. I mindful of the fact that I am biased, Maybe you are a little to roads. Ok, so we just admit that, but it's still awfully interesting to me- to see the general sense of outrage around this, as opposed to the great bailouts in two thousand and eight and two thousand nine, I'm still pissed off about the bank's getting where I live it, and when I write about this on Facebook Selina those student dead thing, people were like well we're. Were you in two thousand and eight like what I was right here still outrage

it's still pissed off right, yes, and so what makes this different than every other decision? The government is made to call winners or losers or encourage one kind of behavior over another or put their thumb on the scale. Why has this resonated so deeply with so many people? Well, I think we should clarify is that we do have a biased towards this? Even if it's a scourge that bias is based on geography, not on politics, that's based on where were from that, based on place right we are a country of the place and the place. Let's, and I believe that, that your biases problem very similar to mine. We both started out and community college, assuming have a sense of place and where we come from, but we also have a sense of our of that sort of cool right. You drop

I went into the water and you watch the circle go out with a sense of that circle and we can see those people to the left and right of us who all. the right thing and the people I think here, then wider point is wise. this one so hard, because the people that benefited from the most are the elite and the people that are hurt by the most are the people they go to the leads house and fixed or air conditioning or Oh yeah carpenters are an age battery farmers who are going in paying off the loans of doctors and lawyers and things tangible ray. You feel it. Makes us feel resentful towards the people. There are getting the s and who we naturally wouldn't be reserved for. We, like a doctor whales We need our lawyer right now. This is a all hall attacks at its worst.

In terms of hitting us against each other by the way, there's a resentment that the elites feel towards the people. That's the part that really rubs me that they are entitled this money and there were several people that I interviewed for the story did I didn't even put in the story, because I thought oh geez I don't know if you really want to put that out there. You know what I want to ask you about that because, as I read it, and by the way, full disclosure I'm in this story, you hold me and I gave you some quotes. I tried hard to pull my punches for the same I'm trying hard. Now I was I'm just pissed off We know we literally and chuck out a front rosy to this. We just gave away one point: six.

million dollars in work ethic scholarships to roughly three hundred men and women across all demography is united only by two things: their willingness to work and their decision to forego a four year path, and for that for that they're getting pie in the face. They feel like their chumps on that trying to get out of my lane whatever. That means any more, but I read not in your article but somewhere that eighty percent of the people who work in the white house right now are going to get money back as a result of this, and so it is hard. I do my best not to make it political, but when everything is political, how do you not point that

and how does it not make you go well wait. Yeah. There are, I know, and I tried not to make the story overtly political. There were several people that, but there is I know people that I didn't put in the story, but didn't help me with background in terms of trying to understand the sentiment. There were several people who told me that they believed that they were entitled to this and it didn't go far and then there were other people who this one decision, this one thing, this forgiveness, which, by the way not forgiven we're paying, were footing the bill. It didn't you apparently thin air somebody like just print the money impasse it now. There are people whose mind have changed politically going into the those. On november I didn't put that in their name, and as well. You know as rapporteur, you really have to be careful about using people names. I always your now. There is the slightest

flash people have over. You know an unkind. the eyelash just media's insane jobs think this is a political. I think this is very common sense. The reaction to it leaves intuition of is very political The reaction to it is common sense. Well, so there's a guy you mention in the article yahoo is about thirty thousand dollars in debt, he has it classical music degree. He didn't even finish his degree. And, of course, he's still on the hook, for the note and- interests. Me was his reaction. You ask them about it and he said. Look, I believe I was taken advantage of predatory lending and so forth and growing

up. It was pretty clear that there was no other option, but his dad is like a fourth generation. Tradesman he's got other options right in front of his face and it's not a judgment, call on this kid and there's not a kid anymore, but it's an observation, people can't see it. He believed, as I'm looking at your article right now. He believed that his unfinished degree in classical music was as legitimate, to society as the tax rate of that somebody might enjoy for purchasing a bulldozer or for the cost the taxpayer foots for building a new road. It's not that is wrong that he believes he's right, genuinely yes, it was really interesting is we're. Having this conversation, there are a bunch of welders behind us well behind I have in front of me, and

working on fixing a city street rank no working under me. Are there working on their infrastructure, and he turned and he says I dont think you to everyone paying putting the bill, for my degree, is any different than you footing the bill for those guys getting pay for a new road. I couldn't wrap my head around it. I can't either, but I think it's important to understand that he can't not wrap his head around it. I don't know how to reach that kid, except other than to say, look, be reasonable, make a list of p bull and be as generous as you want. That will benefit from your decision to major in classical music and then not finish versus the number of people whom I drive on that road and make a value judgment I mean I'm. What I want to say is wait a second year

utterly wrong your backwards, those people building a road that we all use offer a far superior contribution to society. Not that there is anything wrong with classical music. I sang in the opera for eight years. For god's sakes, I get it, I get it, but come on really. AL degrees. All trains are the same and they're all the same responsibility to the taxpayer really yeah- and you know thing that you and I talked about before- and I prayed about what these young people he's- thirty nine, so he's young to me. These young people have been sort of immersed within our culture right or cultural curators are corporations. Are institutions are government in hollywood? All told him that all told him exactly his mindset. It's like when you have a political leader that doesn't happen.

No man in the room right that tells you everything you do. His grey everything you do is grey, no one in his life to say yeah. We entire generation of that Dude dude, dude, dude dude. I used to struggle on this cast to find new ways to encourage business owners to post a job for free and super cruder, dotcom, slash robot nowadays. Unfortunately, my job is too easy, because today, business owners don't need to be convinced that hiring is more challenging than ever before. They know the problem does not allow of opportunity, its workforce part separation rate. That's at an all time low you can blame this lack of workers on the pandemic or locked down or declining work ethic or any number of other things, but blame won't change the fact that business owners are competing like never before for the employees they need, and if your among those

business owners and you haven't posted a job for free at ziprecruiter. Calm, slash robe. Well, then, with respect, what are you waiting for even in this crazy economy. For out of five businesses who posted job at super. router dotcom, slash row find a quarrel the candidate and less than twenty four hours I did, and I bet you will to post a job for free its hypocritical council Ashraf you'll see for yourself why they really are the smartest way to higher Smart as- to share he chiron generation. Of that here's. What scares me I agree with you, except for the part, in this kid's case, his name

Jim. By the way, I don't just calling the kid, but Jim's dad was right. There Jim's dad was a tradesman yeah. Jim grew up with joy, dad and every single day, Jim's dad showed Jim that yet there are other ways to make a living. When I worry about is that, and I dont know There'S- this is pure conjecture- apologies if it doesn't apply at all here, but I know lot of guys like Jim dad who didn't want Jim to follow in their footsteps. They wanted Jim to go out there into the world to do something and better whatever better means right, and I wonder, was that happening? Did you sense that, yes, yes, he did tell me that we had a very long interview. What is ironic is that he now works in the same building, track that his dad does at the same union hall

That's ok! You also said that he regrets going to college he was referring to. He made a wrong decision and attending colleges what europe yeah he day he did regret. It is interesting, as you did regret it. However, he still has that mindset that is be bottling like his realities, haven't impacted his lane and she said MIKE pray. These may now. I even the reality has tied him a completely like you should be in that line.

Well, I mean, if you're alive and twenty twenty two and looking for work, you better be down with the facts that the lanes are everywhere and they lead and all different directions and if you're not willing to get in your car and to go to where the work is well, never mind the consequences of not staying in your lane. What are the consequences of sitting tight and waiting waiting somehow for the opportunities you're looking for the land in your lap? Have you heard of nick, amber stat by any chance now tell me back he's a guy actually chuck just right. Amended him to me. He wrote a book about men who simply haven't he just wrote an article in the journal about men who didn't go back to work after covered, but he wrote a book about six years before, on the same thing: is talking about the fact that there are seven million men in this country who are not looking for work or working.

And we ve never seen anything like it before there have been men out of work before, but by every past metric they ve been looking for work. The number of men who have who have given up is staggering just staggering and that's the other thing that your article talks, a kind of opens the door for it. This guy Jim got very lucky because his old man had a trade he could step into, but a lot of people at that point, their life right now, a lot of men in particular, are just throwing up their hands and sent the hell with it. No more For me, there are disappearing into living either with a family member with their parents. I think these she called living on the dole and there's the system as a whole, snowball effect on our culture. By that happening. There is this, next generation. So what if he has children? He marries right with

that generation being time as an example by their parents. I just think we dont- think about these larger cultural impacts. Just the place of men period in our culture, has become remember talking about european corporations in hollywood in georgia There is even a hallmark of these guys. You're sort have been diminished. I dont think any of this is good see wise for what happens with the next generation generation. After that we need good holes. We need people a mother or father or mother and father to show examples of hard work and earning your way. or your way wherever you go in your life and not showing that isn't good for our culture, no local,

sure is always upstream of these things right and made. It feels sometimes like it's the other way around, but I have always argued that part of the reason there somebody stigmas and stereotypes and myths and misperceptions around the trades is that the way they ve been portrayed in sitcoms and movies and disgusted cocktail parties for many decades has sort of collectively conspired to diminish the whole thing. But your point around portrayals of men in general, I think, is super interesting. Maybe we went too far in the forties and fifties may be. The archetypal male was way too one dimensional and way too predictable. But I think I was watching with my mom. Everybody loves raymond. The first season that come out that was a really fun show and I enjoyed it, but she kind of pointed out whatever it is. It's always his

However, it is yet again whether it said he forgets to pick up the kids or he gets the cooking wrong. We get. He never really did anything right right and once I started looking for that Jesus, I saw it everywhere every triple increased I true than has been the case, lay since the early eighties, the betrayal A ban whether its and had, or a movie or anywhere in hollywood or on a soap opera in books there. must a throw away character. We demonize man, we demonize them: value. A man brings not just your relationship, but us To the community I mean in the community think about rotary clubs or else or those kind of

goody, the jaycees right. These are the kinds of things that were used to lift job, an encouragement to join and scouting dad paternal organizations are becoming less and less important in the community. I have no idea what's going on with scouting our you want to know. I pray you to find out and we try to famine eyes and not in a negative way, but we try to. men and women on the same plain in terms of value and well value is true. There is also a very different aspects between a man and a woman in terms of in the community we ve made a taboo subjects. Everything has and again there really say that anymore, well now I want to get your take on everything you just said: views

the well you're demography, the appalachian, because you know I think about what so tragic there is that I'm in a generalised horribly, but the work ethic he's so ingrained in the identity of a man in that part of generalised folks. Forgive me, I'm not saying there's no work arrogant when I say that at all I'm saying the part of the idea Any of a man in the part of our country that Selina covers is wrapped up in work and see opportunity vanish in those areas and to see all these things happen in those areas? It must be particularly poignant run into people who, just or looking around as though there cheese has been literally moved. What happened in these towns? What happened in these communities yeah it's entirely sad. A number of things happen

Towns in these communities. First of all, trade deals and both parties didn't really bad trade deals. Are these trade deals took away the soul of their community, so centres of more new would drive into a town like young communist. China has perfect example you're coming up in days on the forty five bursary of black monday. What's black monday black monday's on September nineteen, the day when fifteen thousand and mostly men lost their jobs up and down the steel valley all in one day, all monday, The thing they're always sorted hit me Firstly, I was, I think, a senior in high school. The thing that hit me first is you didn't hear the hum of the machines anymore. It now and to me, as a young person like that, men work that many people were

people have jobs and the kids? I went to high school what their doubts have jobs and everything changed at that moment. We have not only not covered. Our government has done everything to make sure to make their punishment permanent in terms of knowledge, binding way, is to bring back jobs of value. These were well paid jobs. They could send their kids up to a trades gorgeous, all where they can have a kind jump at lake erie right or a book so they could go fishing. They do not have an extravagant life, but they have the middle class life and it was very aspirational and these communities were centred on the literally gains in the sand like football games and the churches. The gill It all started inner well, then, and make these communities so strong and when took away the harder that not only did they take away others manufacturing jobs but then the barber hadley could steal debate

Eric had to cut anymore the machine shop that fixed everything the car dealership. We wanted the brain inside out in our zest for technology and push for college education. We force the young people out all that let our skeletons of these citys good no way do I want to in any way diminish the importance of a job that pays a wage that allows all of this to happen. I get that, but what happens to the conversation when you reduce? work to nothing, but this transactional deal between an employer and an employee to me- and this goes labour management thing. We talked about it last week by probably lost a few friends as a result, but

What I meant to say is that It just seems like when we talk about work and labour today. The only thing we talk about is the size of the pay check and when we do that and its important, but when we do that to the exclusion of all of the other things, then the door opened wide to conversations about universal basic income and all sorts of other things, all sorts of other things that presuppose the notion that work is nothing but a paycheck, and that makes me nervous well yeah the things about manufacturing. If we just stick with manufacturing or we stick with coal or natural gas, the thing about those kinds of jobs, or a welder or the people to build bridges, build roads right. They all- view in different ways, but it always comes back that they feel patriarch and safer, mean patriotic, but

I because doing something. That's making their town better. It's making their neighborhood better. They are building The bridge then eventually President of the united states is gonna drive over when it comes to visit town ray and there All were very cognizant of some being part of something bigger than themselves, and there is a lot of pride that went into that job in that spilled over into the community? I can't even shorter empathy, eyes not how much these jobs were just jobs there was is intolerable. Open fabric, that no matter what you did in this county was interlocking interconnecting, and you were all part of something bigger than yourselves real, quick. I think I can ex

blame the thing you're talking around or at least offer a theory, and it brings Jim back into the conversation or classical music. Major thirty grand in the hole who actually genuinely believes his debt is as legitimate as the cost of putting on a road. You know, part of what's missing and part of what you're talking about is art and before shop class was simply taken out of high schools overnight. It was called the vocational arts kid jim, he probably saw himself as an artist for a time as he was studying and I'm not trying to make his case for him, but I do think it's interesting. point out that, in the same way, a man working on a bridge might take pride in the fact that the president could one day trips, ass it. We also have a guy studying classical music, who might one day

sing, the national anthem in a stadium where the president is see them and that might be a place to sort of retrench too and say. Look when you take the art out of the vocation. Was all your life with this: the brute realities of the work, in the same way that when you take the joy of work out of the labor, all your left with his pay check. and I kind of feel like somewhere in all of this. If you can draw a line for me, draw it between the banishment of home, mac and shop class from high schools. With this current level of disaffection, you write about every week, yeah I mean how max started following ah probably meet eighties right. That's one! The collapse of the steel industry, a collapse in factoring in this country, and the edict that went out through spoke councillors was gonna. Come

That's it you're gonna call a terrible is going to college and there All these incredibly talented, artisans, the don't in the college mould. They want to go. Do this other thing, but this up thing jobs are either gone or move seven states away and they can't be close to their family and a lot of people just got lost. And when they got lost, they got stock and not We did we to take those abilities to take a shot class or how mac, by the way, you know young people dont know how to write a check now let alone people, dont use checks any more able having online? That's remo? It's you know the YAP, the card, its man area That is just like where's, my money going. It's I don't know we really

also even basic how max you you know how to boil water and put pasta in there and cork right, dude skills are incredibly important or no how do we have a budget jimmy young people, young for an entire generation. Didn't learn, wait I'm supposed to budget. Money, I voted to spend it until my paycheck was gone and then I have to live on rum. noodles until the next paycheck, like there's a concept of a budget where The three of us probably grew up with their parents. I do in the budget every two weeks. They wait it out on the dining room, Jane other, all their little envelopes with other little. You know their money for this a lot for this and for that it works, and we took that away from them there has been a resurgence in steering young people in Did you appalachia towards the train, It's never has a lot to do with the natural gas industry, which further

it isn't just in pennsylvania, colorado, taxes in new mexico right. It's me, Thelma raises languages is amazing industry. That, by the way has reduced our carbon footprint is not accede, does not exceed it. We have seen a resurgence. My young nephew giuliani is taking shop. In fact, he got admitted into a city school. There's not like this. Only you amount of people can go to certain schools, but because he had an interest in tray. They took him yeah I'm. So I see a light at the end of the tunnel in around here. Natural gas is also played a huge part in both check there, high school in winesburg green county pennsylvania they have a low tech program that, if you get accepted into it as a sophomore, when you walk, the bicycle as a senior you work with your cap and go on to say out:

door and you are making eighty five thousand dollars a year, and that is the point This county in this chain and you are now able to buy a house that lives near your grandparents in your parents and you are able to get back to your community. Those are the kinds of aspirational events that makes communities. Better and stronger, but also gives these young artists is the ability to do their trade without feeling guilty disdaining go to college and by the way you look your art, your craft is such a view, part of this is well. You must tell their stories Selina, you ma. Still there stories and these headlines must appear in giant fonts and you must drip. You must drip, apart from the rest of the country, as you're doing You ve said artisans. Now a couple of times are not to be labour, the point, but I was struck listening as you talk about the way we used to have virtually three choices, all of the time

NBC, a b c CBS then comes fox, and you have four right m c. I a t and t sprint like life is about three. Voices as its. Let's make a deal, one two and three, so many people are stuck to. because somehow the third choices vanished, and so what does the? artisan do the man or woman who didn't go to college, but who is nevertheless skilled, who approaches his or her work like an art. They don't fit in the uneducated column and they don't fit in the post baccalaureate column, so they get lost and as you were talking about that, I was thinking here in California. We ve waged war on jobbers on freelancers, the gig economy, which I think is terrific, because it up

the door to entrepreneurship and freelance, but that column has been eliminated here now you either own a business, making you a greedy rapacious capital. Or your an employee making you basically an oppressed class, there's no middle ground, for somebody with a very specific kind of ambition to occupy and maneuver from. It seems to me that appalachian of all places is one of the best examples where the middle ground has just vanished. That's very sad doo doo, doo doo doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo dumb. I, like my meat in a box. It's true, I like it so much. I wrote a jingle about my meat, which I sing for you in a moment So let me just say that my meat is one percent grass fed beef free rein,

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every order when you sign up at butcher, box, dot com, slash row and use code are owed. W E claim this deal at butcher box, dotcom, slash row, use code row and then you and I we'll be sing in the same tone, right now we re the sads butcher box, dot, gun, slash row. I just got back and driving across the country. I do that twice a year? I usually do vertical and horizontal, I will tell you that these trips, again background. I took a row we carry about this one road, colorado, those, I have thirty nine miles long and yet it should it's three and a half hours to drive it. Why cosette was all dirt and it was all

the side of the mountain and always acquaint you're gonna end up over the side of the mountain, but I always made the most inspirational and aspirational people on these traps, and I come back feeling refresh and feel whole because the people make this country work then do those small entrepreneurial things that you're talking about like the guy I met whose advancement this is my favorite russian say: Prager it's off, I'm gonna be right. that this do. You know how hard it is to get a bank loan to start a business to be gunsmith. Well, I figured would depend somewhat on what state your end, but by and large, I'm gonna go with difficult even in my state, it's almost impossible. you want to sell guns, I think so now, in our country you, I'm a drill bets for natural gas industry. I'm sorry, not we're not gonna give you alone. I have a big he's coming out about that.

We are punishing entrepreneurs, people who contribute to our country. We are punishing them because they're not adhering to the social justice and the climate, justice, corporate and bank. king? I d john by this now These people are finding ways to just start their business just in their garage in their house, and a small building they put on the back of the house, because the banking industry is refusing to give them loans because they're, not social justice, conformist. That brings up an interesting point about people with money who are not giving loans who gave Jim alone to go to school. Why didn't they say hey? Are you really going to be able to make this money back? We have a loan system for education that doesn't put.

Any consideration into the fact that not a social justice cause or anything. I an economic equation judgments the cost benefit if a classical music degree caused this. How much your average musical classicist expect to make with that degree exactly never asked not allowed to ask that it used to be before the federal government got involved in the student loan programme. It used to be when private money was going to loan You had to sit across the table from someone who looked you over and said jeez, I dont know. If french literature is really, I don't know. If I can loan you a hundred thousand dollars to study and somebody would say no, but no one says no. You can study anything you want. You can study. Wife, seinfeld is funny there. A class Let me now, if I figure that one, what the deal with seinfeld. Really bad jokes,

artist, you see it's really. His only skills the great paid off to your playing. It was the community bank. They gave Well, it wasn't guys who sat and appear next year, dad shoulder to shoulder or color I need the money, or was your literally cut trade like your bank or new you, that's why I go to a very small bag. Very tiny by my bank knows me. I know my Now this is a whole another thing Selina cause. You know what I mean it's very difficult shock. You teach it up, and you're probably regret this based on what I am about to say that when I now nearing out well, when you look at freddy and fanny mac right and you look at what happens with the student loans and how they get bundled and how they get sold right. They get sold way way that you know. I think David Sedaris run a really funny story where Tom,

about freddy and fanny mac. They sound like your wacky uncle in your aunt somewhere kind of rich and eccentric in their here. To help you out. No, no, they are faceless, pimp some thieves who live at the end of a long, placid call right in the middle of summits, towering glass edifice in Kansas, right, wealth, hello, mortgage, backed securities me. What the hell do. We think really happened back into them. alternate telling people that if they were living in an apartment, they were essentially being abused and there Would you know, reserve our house? There is no reason, why anyone shouldn't have a home never mind. The red lining, never mind the racial stop. I get I under stand on painting with a broad brush, but the arguments later the argument that everybody deserves and needs to

then a home is not so askance from everybody deserves and needs to have a four year degree, and once you convince the individual that there's sort of truth in that mumbo jumbo then the money will flow until it blows up in our faces and we got guys like Jim who don't know what to do with thirty thousand dollars or reading. It kills me the entitlement that so many people have a title to go to I'm entitled the house where I brought my kids up, like you your house buying money to buy a house job. My house is outside of your leg job by this extravagant whatever the case may be. And that's how I was brought up as well, but everybody this is an entitlement world you're entitled to that house. Does american for it doesn't matter

if you don't pay your mortgage, you are entitled to that. I can't find any sympathy for the person you just scribes, but I dont want to pile on. So where can I offer some sympathy right? Maybe it's in the fact that this guy Jim maybe I mean he says he really didn't see any other options and look personal Beyond my ranting. I do believe that the pressure we ve put on a generation of kids is unspeakable and it's coming from all sides: Selina teachers, parents, piastres councillors whose councils are getting bonused. Based on that number of kids in their charge, who wind up going to college as opposed to trade schools so if you're a seventeen year old, never mind

the entitlement. The entitlement will come later right if it comes at all, just think about the pressure yeah. Where is the voice of reason, whereas the person going hey easy there sparky? Yet, a little cost benefit analysis. So I understand, in the absence of that people who look at their giant student dead today are gonna, put their hand out and say: look I got sold Bela goods, so somebody somewhere help me. I understand that, but I do too bike. I'm glad that you brought it up because that's cool, If what I was getting at with the idea of no Is there to say is really good idea. The cost benefit no one's there to measure that and put it up in front of you, and not saying that the people who were signing for these loans are victims or anything of the kind, but I am saying that they were pressured by teachers, guidance councillors, parents who also go to call

go to college, go to college, you can't do anything with your life. Unless you go to college, you can't do anything with your life. Unless you go to, Ok, I gotta. How do I go to college sign here? Ok and they got themselves in without thinking those things through. I'm not saying that they're not responsible, but I think there's a bigger uncle sam type person to share some blame here about the universe. city selina. How about fifty? billion dollars and endowments ass. Harvard I mean why do we go to the tax payer? First, yes, it's absolutely and sang and they sat back and look at profession. For a minute. The best journalist I have ever worked with never went to college, they were just really good writers and really knew how to find the story. Tell me about that person. Who, specifically, are you talking about my added, at the trim years ago, sandy Tolliver shingle

which I have never worked under a better editor in my entire career, and I saw her work her way up from being the cops reporter covering school board. Covering city hall and then give her way into being the city desk editor enjoyment. Really becoming one of the managing editor of the newspaper and she. got and sheer instinct and she knew how the channel story and take the bs out when the bs needed to be taken out and those in europe today she does it give hired All she does. Newspapers require an ivy league degree. I feel exclaiming job you might. God

so I mean it's just so it's so heartbreaking when you think about the waste of talent. The number of people today who could be in relative terms in any number of companies who are just like sandy tollervey now who have smarts ambition, natural talent, gumption and a work ethic to beat the band those people to day? I'm sorry to have to say it like this, but they are under assault. They are not valued, They are not sought, they are not encouraged and they are not rewarded, People say to us all the time work ethic scholarships. Why won't? Because who else is doing it we find the next sandy tall over that's what every employer worth her were. His salt should be asking themselves today Judas

hey. If she reads a story of mine and she pretty faithfully, does and sends me a note and says good job zero cause- I was always shit. that kind of bars where you want to do a really good job in here in my head, like she occupies a space in my head every day. When I write, even though I don't answer to her any more widely resolute gods merger me the best for me- so am I gonna know it's like. I did about my star art historian, urien, MIKE choosing, the jobs in our own like seek Jesus, but nothing like a good attaboy or at a gal. I should say from an shocked: this is the thing at a boy, is get cheapened when they come from sources. You neither respect nor admire. It has to come

from somebody who earned your trust. And how do they do that? You know how does a woman like sandy tall over it's an honest question? How does anybody earn that level of respect the level of risk? active. You feel for her. What did she do along the way to really enjoy under that in you. I bet it wasn't a whole bunch of audible I know I was terrified yeah yeah right like are you kidding me? I don't think it's my lead good. I don't have enough sources Is that right, I'm the best reporter in the world, because I'm dyslexic, so I'm always turning things inside out? I was terrified get it wrong. You workers,

programmers drain. My battery, can I put my for god's sakes that just getting exercise as like silver to find out and take care that you're gonna go. Please. yourself in awesome. We love Selina. Selena Zito she's such a good reporters. You shut your good interview. She literally nearly talked her battery right into extinction right now that she saw that and you vanished for awhile chuck. I could hear you, but I couldn't see you is that right. So you know yeah yeah, you inside your hutch, I'm looking at this is, that she's built just for this podcast shit. You know what do the woman travels constantly? its there's. No reason for me to assume that you're home, you know what that's fair. I guess I'm not that does great leader When we talk about artisans, when I fear places in life. Our outside of western pennsylvania in no west virginia is the

So where are you familiar with the esther where it all sounds like fancy under ants, but tell me more about our kissing vicious oil It's all the colors over there. There are based miss lake famous I am the last fiery in america american manufacture. Pottery in america and asia, I went in there and watch them, make everything these research artisans. They love with they do my report was how you pronounced c, o o o r heller, these kellers over here these bright healers. Why me and your word I trained and never kill your beautiful killers. You know object. I thought there was a high in the audio, that's actually what she said.

It's like when I have shane yeah going anywhere. I love it. I love it. It's actually the perfect observation to make, given the fact that we're fifty six minutes into this thing, these artisans you're talking about who are working for the last pottery makers, in the nation at fiesta, ware yeah, I wonder how many of them have four year degrees, not many All I have done so. How do I send you guys? A story or people know sleazy, though com there's a ton of stories about yes work as I have a slight obsession then been around since eighteen. Seventy five, there east river, pole, ohio, new west virginia right there and

time is liverpool. I always the pottery, the pottery capital of the world. Three hundred different were companies were located in that town. Now there is one very good, there's very few people there. they haven't degree they make of goods there they work hard. The plant is the exact same plant that it wasn't the eighteen, nine. These have you ever seen a wooden brick for oh yeah, the thousand peter features in common increased out, so you know about catch on fire. There is such pride in every piece, every dish You have any fiesta aware, nurse. I suspect you will keep. Are the crazy that I'm talking about this, because it's like a cult to you? what happened. Last time you came on here. All kinds of crap blew up.

My guess is fiesta where it's going to get bombarded, I'm guessing fiesta, ware, dot, com or friends. You heard it here. If you want to really dive into some one of a kind pottery and some amazing killers, then you ago over there to fiesta where heller heller mike I'm never said again now selina since you brought up your website, Selina Zito dotcom, that's as a l, e and a z, I t o dot com. I understood You got a few subscribers after the last time you were on the podcast. You gotta file, tally on that two hundred and nineteen thousand, dollar, nobody listeners are really like. They send me notes the email like. Oh I love that story, I'm like! Oh, I live there. It's just it's very engaging I have three full time jobs.

a daily reporter for the washington examiner. I am a columnist for the new europe and I am also a column- is for the pittsburgh. Persons that show you can buy almost up there I'll, tell you what else you are you're my mom's friend I love your mom. I would be remiss if I didn't thank you and encourage our listeners to go. Read the article you wrote about heavy row with your help. Vacuum in the nude and other ways to get attention wound up. I'd like to say on the top of the new york times list, but their best seller list. Does it really rank best sellers she sold more than anybody else on the list and came in at number eleven, but damn she's, always the best seller. To me I hope she didn't take too much of your time because she can get pretty mouthy We're like an hour in twenty minutes approach with her story. I took the little bit about the book, but

Finally, I just talked about her life. I think her life stories really interesting and that's the kind of story telling I like to do bring the reader into the living room. With the person that an interview and feel like their set. The spell right and they're just talking back on board, the average human about whether we want to call it. Trying to prevent the story with you mom and she was a blast and I really really enjoy alot. Your dad he's very funny to you to dinner. Turn on the show. While we were dealing with joy ball and she's right he's not really good. In the kitchen and I put the story because who's. She is right, we like there's an obligation when I tell a story, is to put everything in there and let the reader sorted drink it in and understand the people that I have the honour to Ethiopia.

Well Selina, that's only the hardest thing in the world to do, and I'm not great at it. I love. To sum up, I love to connect the dots, but great writers. In my view, and for that matter, maybe even especially great journalists. They don't connect the dots. They just put the dots out there and give us room. They give us room to form an opinion, make a conclusion. I don't mind being led right, but I don't want to be lectured and I don't want to be scolded and even on a sunday, I don't really want a sermon. I like what you did with my mom article also because you captured the thing that's under her success, which everybody talks to me about work ethic. They should be talking to her cause. She did this. She wrote every day for sixty years before she will

got the time of day to see a reporter of your caliber paying attention to that across three platforms. You're welcome on this podcast anytime There is a brightness in your mom re. There's a brightness said Is it directing alike at you but drawn towards her, and I think that is her great gift, and I doubt that she lectured view about work ethic. However, I believe that she showed you and that's what to try to bring out in the story she didn't tell you too, I suspect she didn't nag you about it. She lead by example, and that brightness that thing in her, I think, is what makes her incredibly special she's a great story, teller, but also that she is

tax. Other people will like you and maybe to some extent me. The real reason I wanted to talk to you for the first time was that in the nonfiction world, dirty jobs was pretty unique in the sense that I never really waited on anything. Until I tried it, I thought that George Clinton, a man of letters, actually did a great job of immersing himself in the story before he formed an opinion. You do the same thing why my mom does the same thing, and I think I realize now the longer I live the more impressed I am with people who actually go to where the story is go to where the work is

walk a mile in the shoes right before they write a yelp review under the footwear section yeah, I'm glad you're doing it back here, some of their most plenty in places that are then were probably not very remarkable to other people, but when you go in that elevator and you will twelve hundred feet under the ground and you go back seven miles new cross over three stage to go to the cold war just so that piece of coal in seven hours can be turning the light on your church? You really appreciate the people that do those jobs, while those people are the reason, your lights or on today those people reason why you can go into the store or the county, poor house or to your church, and so, if I don't do it if I just sit in private computer and write about it that I don't have all those tangible experiences terrain,

the other place tat I loved you go. I have this series coming out after the election on these lost notes from baptist churches, which is just amazing story. I still have a lot more reporting. You wanna tell me what I'm all in lost notes from baptist churches- music. that hasn't outside of some of these baptist churches in maryland and virginia, and all that down south these very old charges, both black, that this white baptist churches, outside of the congregation. Nobody has heard this incredible music. It's the way the notes are used in these hymnals Jane back to the eighteenth century, and these congregations are carrying on the tradition and they're, not letting it get lost. Someone like a lost language, accepted music. Tell me more like, or you talk

about a note- that's not on a pet atomic scale a b c, the f g, something in between that's, not even a half step, but some quarter tone something like that. Yes really yeah I've heard of this chalk, its super? It's not like throat singing was its own crazy thing, but its own thing and it doesn't sound like anything else. You ve ever heard before no, it doesn't get goose funds. Just talking about it, when I first want to I love to go to different because I am a practising catholic. My fate is incredibly important to me, but was taught long ago, my sister mary grace and holy ghost academy learn about other religions, it only makes your face stronger, so in my worrying. I always try to go to the different church or a temple or whatever baptist of always fascinated me just because when I walked out, there are like I saw it Jesus in me right now.

if god four hours, Jesus and everyone singing and crying- and it's amazing, arusha I use happened upon this. So doing a lot of research, it's going to take me months to write a story. I can't wait. There'll, be music there'll, be video there'll. Be excuse me, I'm so excited about it. Is there a place? People could go online right now and listened to an example of what you're talking about, because I know now. That's why it's probably lost lost no right from ass churches. Not until I read the story all right. I got a forward that you know it I did send you a link to one youtube, saying that I didn't find another about that its fuzzy, but it does capture it, but the person there was making the video was not very good at it. So there

like bounce around with music. You two thing go jack: you can take up a real, deep dive on youtube with old guy. Gospel, quartets, tat there. So many of them- and you can see the impact they had in appalachia, for were, but all over the country I mean it's a giant rabbit whole a lot of time, but I have not gone down the baptist church thing. I can't wait. I can't wait to get their story excited about that and I have a a story about moonshine call people illegal coma. That's really funny that limit moonshine coal. I know there is a big difference between going down in an elevator in a coal mine and crawling in a hole. Let me just tell you I was like I really don't want to do

I remember when I was in pennsylvania. We went to let's see by terminus. We did anthracite went down a couple of hours. miles that I mean it's, I can't think of anything so later that has been such a whip, saul of emotion and public, from respect too approbation? Yes right! Coal miners were heroes. Yes, in our lifetimes, they were widely recognized as the people who made civilized life possible for the rest of us and my god, how far of those people fall and now they need to learn to code yeah. Now that he's learned to code that's right and they are considered, though literally an enemy yeah in our culture and

these guys work hard and their proud and women. I have one woman in the story. She was the only woman call minor and she was remains an issue going down that coal, mine and those guys man they have her back or you may have her back, and I just absolutely just loved that whole sense of community that these guys have them harvey mine in washington, county in western pennsylvania ruffle was the guy. I knew steve ruffle. He was on dirty jobs, and you know third generation call minor and the things you can learn. I wish, when you were talking to my mom, you had told her about your church thing, because when my brothers and I went to her, I was twelve- may be thirteen.

just rebellious hell and I've been gone to the church. Her dad built the church. I grow up and boy scout meetings in the basement, lynton dinners every wednesday night, weddings lying all of it. Well, which you didn't tell you was I went to her one day, I'm like mom. I've had it on twelve years old there's really not much more for me to learn in this life being very wise and prescient, and I've made some decisions regarding my personal faith in my own journey, and I'm done with this. Ok, I'm just done with this well yeah, because I was very smart salinity, I mean I knew our manga was fair and my dad said: look it up. that's not on the list of things you can choose to do now. If you don't want a beer, we're presbyterian and if you don't want to go to kenwood united presbyterian, that's that's fine, but you're gonna go somewhere and so was my mother, whose stepped in and for a summer my boy

There's an I went on the great try it out religion. If, if legion were thing that money can buy, the rich would live and the poor would die. That's first song I sang in a baptist church in like nineteen. many for I swear to god and then the next sunday we'd go. What are these lutherans up to? What about the methodist? What about the castle? it's all this stooping and the kneeling on the staff that but my favorite not to hijack the conversation. But have you been who unitarian church ass. Oh my god chuck this way up in like a o up in hunt valley somewhere, so we're up in the county weren't horse country. It's like sixty eight degrees. On a sunday morning at the windows are open. The cool breeze is blowing in off a cornfield everybody's. It's a party and the open the woman, is a woman who's. The preacher right remembers. Nineteen, seventy four so like what is that this she walks out and says. Please turn

to him number forty, nine in your him books, forty nine. And the congregation commences to singing oh, what a beautiful morning from Oklahoma. No, shall we gather at the river no near my god to the no old rugged cross, the unitary adds went with there's a barrage golden hey asylum, isn't: believable loved, unlike oh, my god, religion with musical theatre, I'm in How did you see your summer of what was a bar hopping church shopping? Go? Where will it culminated myself and my entire family? Now our scientologists? That's what happened? Oh, oh! No. I tried to keep my poker I gotta get out, of which I wasn't for me the same,

until they I gave it wasn't. For me What's the name of the planet, nobody supposed to know chuck the ultimate xenon enters is disease on pretty close to zero, which I think is a pretty good place to end this, selina Z, on taking their careers? all do direction. I smiled they have wages, DC. I forget, I forget two thousand age rival when the election was lying. I don't forget what I was covering. I hated going dc big there is open house and it was the scientology office. and I want you know I tried everything else. I'll just go in and see what's going on, those people are weird, I'm sorry.

you have said so many things that would get a normal person cancelled and, alas, ninety minutes, but sandcastle instead you'll get a thousand people to sign up for Selina zito dot com yeah? honestly go there, the woman, our rights fairly fearlessly. She travels all over the place. I really appreciate you doing what you're doing, thanks throw my mom a bone there. That was awesome and, more importantly, keep telling the stories of the people we used to venerate but now disparage. I think it's rather important. Thank you like what you're doing I love your show on fox, I watch the one, the other repeat, the other night cause. I didn't see it the first time with the north carolina policemen, oh yeah. nearly wilmington Caroline first episode season: two: we also down and we're like look this things ahead. How america works fox business got a new season coming up, but we were like What do you want to do? and I said honestly this time. I don't know that

ever been a tougher time to be a cop. Let's a fly on the wall with some good cops and see other week, is and fox businesslike. Absolutely, let's do it and we got the thing on the errand I've heard from so many cops, and we, I have to tell you this. You know I knew right honestly and fair last about people who willingly put on a uniform whether its to mine, coal or run into a burning building were protected. Serve you huh from whom they issued it yeah. I love the show I really enjoy. I sometimes just like student, put it on a monday back to back on. I think it's sunday, nice thing I don't mind that mandate under national railway dvr look. The important thing is urine bed watching me. Nor is there a way to go. We're gonna cut all this out, our young never

gonna cut it into the open is what he is now we with this now make sure you agreed with me saying, see out o r. It was never saying our heller, we gotta go, but one way, thanks to sandy tolliver for set in the bar high in a way that mailed selina jump for it. We appreciate that to our ideas. Thanks here feel like watching her alone cheaply. If you have a business bank, people

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