Later. I grow. This is the way I heard it episode number two hundred eleven. This once called, can you Tell me about the testicles. Can you tell me about the testicles that was real quest? and pose to me in earnest thirteen years ago, by today's guessed, the one and only TIM, Ferris turned out to be a pretty important question. that led to an answer. I daresay you won't soon forget, I hope not anyway, we start with the true story of one of the greatest performances of all time, in my opinion, famously executed not so long, ago from a modest stay age and a little town up north. Now, if your fan of sixties. You will know the town, and, if your fan of true excellence you'll know their performance but you may not know the performer as well as you think, you do and you might be so rise by the amount of time it took him to chase

the way people think about that which is truly excellent and memorable, and that which is merely mediocre unforgettable that tail bleeds somewhat seamlessly, I think, into a less famous performance by yours truly delivered not so famously from another. modest stage in another little town, this one a little town out West. I refer to what turned out to be the most consequential performance of my rare inspired by the aforementioned question. From my aforementioned guessed, the one and only TIM, Ferris who famously asked me and I'm quoting MIKE. Can you tell me about the testicles the honest answer to Question is the reason I have a speaking career today and for that reason I invited TIM onto the pie gas to discuss the power of

vice from deliberate to accidental and the pressure that sometimes comes from dispensing it TIM Ferris. If you didn't know it is the hosted, the TIM Fair show, one of the most pop we're podcast in the world? He got famous for writing the for our work week, the for our body before our chef and several other best sellers, including my favorite tools of tight which believe it or not. I was supposed to be in, but wasn't due to circumstances best explained in the form of a sincere apology that I attempt to express during our conversation, this is a good one, especially if you ve ever wondered about the unintended consequences of taking conventional wisdom or harboured latent desire to know about the process whereby the testicles, baby, Lamb might be removed and real

Who doesn't want to know more about that? Its episode number two eleven and it all starts right now, Then by right now I mean right after I tell you about the epic hiring spree about to unfold in these United States according to form, Jim's, nail salons hotels, along with countless other mine, pass stores of all kinds are about to hire or attempt to hire more people than ever before to meet the pent up demand after a year lock downs. That means there has never been a better time to post a job for free at zip, recruiter, dot, com, slash row. These are talking points. I can tell you for a fact that we are entering uncharted waters with respect to hiring. Last week in Denver, I spoke to fifteen hundred small business owners in the flooring.

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is the way I heard chapter thirty, three, a little town up north during her farewell tour in two thousand five share, demanded that multiple boxes of Oliver the tissues in rows, scented, cube, shaped boxes, be placed in her dressing room at every stop. Happily share, wasn't David's problem where I care it was interviewed on british TV in two thousand nine. She demanded

to be lowered onto the sofa by two stagehands so that she would increase her dress. Happily, Maria wasn't David's problem. When Madonna checked into a five thousand Square Foot Hotel sweet in two thousand twelve, she demanded hundreds of pink roses individually placed into hundreds of crystal vases carefully situated on every flat surface happily Madonna wasn't David's problem either, but when Eddie demanded seven full weeks to prepare well, that was David's problem because of David was going to pull off an event of this magnitude. The most em Just outdoor gathering in recent memory, he'd need the right, entertainment and there was really no one else like Eddie, but seven weeks of rehearsal. That was

the diva move. Unlike anything David had ever experienced, the event was less than a month away. Moving the date at this point would be a logistical nightmare. What to do David, rubbed his aching temples and took a moment to feel sorry for himself back in the sixties. Pre Madonna's were no less common than they are today I'm guys, like David, were still at their mercy, but the sixties were also the reason David was determined to make this happen. Amerika was at war, young people were feeling rebellious and David thought the country could benefit from a massive expression of love, and unity. He also believed the farm land around his home town would be the perfect venue. Of course he was right. You know Town you might, even though the famous address but Yes, you were there in person to hear them

music and smell the air and lose yourself in the moment. It's easy to forget that the whole event turned on a single performance, which is why David ultimately agreed to eddies demand. He reboot the vendors rebook, the performers Redruth the permits and announced a new date. Then he prayed that Eddie would come through, which of course, that he did again. You had to be there, but if you weren't is fair to say that Eddie was a force of nature like,

tricks and Joplin. He could go for hours on end like the grateful dead and Jefferson airplane. He could riff in ways that left audiences, astounded and begging for more, but, unlike those famous headliners Eddie, didn't have a band to back him up. When Eddie took the stage it was just him. That's why no one wanted to follow Eddie, not ever. That's also why, in spite of the last minute scheduling change, the announcement of his involvement triggered a migration of people, thousands walked thousands hitchhiked and thousands more did whatever

necessary to get themselves to that little town up north, where they hoped to be a part of something bigger than themselves and baby here, something transcendent something they'd, always remember and boy did they ever after a few very solid opening axe, Eddie took the stage and the crowd went wild two hours. The most electrifying performer in America held thousands of people in the palm of his hand, they cheered and they wept, and when Eddie had finished, they applauded for a full fifteen minutes, deeply moved in profoundly grateful to know that one day they would tell their grandchildren. I was there the day, Eddie made history and, of course they did to this day. Their descendants are passing the same story onto their children because

remember. This was the sixties a time when America was at war, and young people were feeling rebellious a time when a farmer named David, good sense, to see that the farm land around his home town would be a perfect venue for his carefully planned expression of love and unity. Of course, he was right a few months earlier, another kind of gathering had unfolded in that very same place, a gathering that brought one hundred seventy five thousand young people together for three days of unforgettable slaughter, an epic bloodbath that left fifty thousand Americans dead were wounded. Many of them were still scattered in terrible pieces right there on day,

frontline that's. Why, after three months of unspeakable clean up David was determined to dedicate the farm land around his home to those now buried beneath it, but so he did, but unless you were actually there to hear the bands play their dirges to hear of acquires seeing their hymns unless you were there to smell the air

rank with rotting flesh and listen to Eddie deliver his thirteen thousand word eulogy from memory. It's hard to imagine what happened in that little town up north during that unforgettable summer of death. You know the town and you probably know the address: no, not the two hour: rhetorical masterpiece, no one thought they'd ever forget, but the two minute rumination but followed a shockingly brief. Two hundred seventy two word homily that left most people scratching their heads wonder if they had missed something twenty, how things work out Edward ever it was once known as America's greatest orator, but today very few people. Remember him at all. Fewer still can

call a single phrase from the epic address. He delivered so masterfully on that sacred afternoon in eighteen. Sixty three! No one at all, still recalls David Wills, the man who organised the event the transformed the farm land around his home into the sprawling national cemetery? It is today, but we all remember the man who stole the show seven score and sixteen years ago, a haggard man suffering from fever in grieving the death of his son, a humble man about as far from diva as a politician,

be an honest man who was content to write his speech on the morning of the event in the spare bedroom of David wills Home, a man named Lincoln, who delivered the address. We do remember a famous address that took its name from a little town up north, a little town called Gettysburg De L D are those were the letters that appeared in the comments under my very first Facebook post back in whatever you're. That was, I didn't know what meant, but they kept showing up. After all, of my subsequent posts de L D, are I encountered a millennial one day out on the main streets of San Francisco and asked him what those letters meant to long didn't read: you're kidding

I said, why would someone with no time take the time to tell me that they had no time the millennial shrugged and said people are busy? I understand that I said, but if you have time to spell out the fact that you're too busy to read what I wrote, how busy can you really be, but the millennial was no longer listening. He had leaned down to PET Freddy, who snarled viciously and tried to bite his finger off that got the millennials attention: hey man, you should tell people that your door is mean, I'm sorry. I said I didn't have time. I wonder sometimes, if Friday is smarter than he lets on, like Lincoln at Gettysburg, he made his point in no time with a snarl and snap. He gave his audience something to remember. My dog seems to understand the power of brevity, but do I

Have I held your attention thus far or have I droned on like Edward Everett? Belaboring things unnecessarily, don't get me wrong; whatever it did at Gettysburg was remarkable. He wrote thirteen thousand words memorize them and then delivered them flawlessly to a full house. His performance was hailed as a triumph in both the union and the confederacy. This was a man who could have talked about a pencil for eight minutes or eighty at for that he has my deepest admiration, but I wonder how ever it would do in our tee. O d are culture. I wonder how he would do at TED

Vince. You might be familiar with TED, a series of gatherings in Silicon Valley, where self styled creatives pay thousands of dollars to hear luminaries, hold forth on topics near and dear to their hearts. Many famous people have given TED talks, though the most popular ones tend to come from people you ve probably never heard of they have titles like how to measure your life. My stroke of insight, the skill of self confidence, makes you wonder how creative those creative tsar I gave a TED talk to in two thousand eight like Lincoln. Who was invited to Gettysburg. To make some remarks I didn't know I'd been invited to give an actual speech. I thought it was there too,

a few words on behalf of the discovery channel which was sponsoring the event? In reality, discovery had volunteered me to give a presentation about the dignity of dirty jobs and eighteen minutes presentation. No more! No less. I called my speech the changing face of the modern day proletariat and used my eighteen minutes on stage to reflect on castration, specifically the oral castration of baby lambs. It was a popular talk. You can watch it on Youtube right now. As a matter of fact, I think you should go ahead. I'll wait. Are you back great? As you just saw the process of biting the testicles off a baby? Lamb is not as barbaric, as you might have thought sure it's disgusting, but it's a lot more pleasant than the method recommended by

experts at the humane society. Who assured me that putting a tight rubber band around the scrotum is the way to go. That process takes days and causes prolonged agony for the lamb, but it looks a lot more civilised than the two fear method its approved you see, but it's not more effect Nor is it better in any way for the lamb. Anyway, I told my son were you with way more detail than my audience might have expected. Naturally, I cast myself as the protagonist. Then I discuss Aristotle's ideas about an egg Norris, wherein the hero discover something about himself, an inescapable truth that he didn't know and puppeteer, whereby that discovery reverses the course of the narrative, when Oedipus, for instance, learns that he enjoys having sex with older women. That's an egg

viruses but discovery about himself when he discovers that the woman sharing his bed is his mother. That's parapet TIA. Likewise, when Bruce Willis in the sixth sense realises that little coal really can see dead people, that's an ignores. What Bruce realises coal can see him because he's been dead all along That's parity. I, like the idea of using Aristotle's high minded terms to describe the surprising truth about biting the balls off baby lambs. Specifically, I liked using those terms to illustrate my realisation that sometimes the experts dont know there ass from a hot rock, but let me tell you I would have liked it a lot more if I had been given to ours,

instead of eighteen minutes, to explain myself, here's something you might not know about TED talks, many of them exceed be a lot of time. Take it from a guy who sat through three days of these things. Otherwise, brilliant people struggle mightily to keep their stories under eighteen minutes. Those are the TED talks that never get posted to Youtube the ones that make me feel better about how much trouble I had with mine. In fact, you may have noticed, despite my best efforts, I also went over the allotted length by two whole minutes. No big deal right, except it two minutes was all Lincoln needed to unite a divided country to make the

asian eternal with words. We now consider immortal words that, if posted on Facebook today would undoubtedly elicit a t, L D are from those with just seconds despair or maybe a wolf from Freddy for the last five years, or so I have been diligently reminding people to call eight one one before they dig. Why? Because civilization is held together with pipes, wires and cables, and today there are roughly ten million miles of pipes, wires and cables buried beneath our feet. Consequently, every thirty seconds, some, ambitious. Do it yourself for working out the garden or installing a new deck or putting it in the mailbox wines up digging into a gas line, a fiber up, line or water line or a sewer line, in other words, before this

messages over somebody. Just like you is going to hit one of the four men pipes, wires and cables, humiliating themselves, causing their neighbours to hate them forever and quite possibly doing themselves great and lasting harm? Please don't be that person. These accidents are incredibly dangerous, really come occasionally fatal and completely avoidable. Just collar click, eight one one before you dig before you dick or visit safe, excavator dotcom for more information T I m bill and TIM: that's right was No now how are you old friend see that of great great wealth. Full disclosure did invite you on here necessarily to interview in the way that I think you ve probably become accustomed to being interviewed, much as I love to go deep, deep, deep, deeply

and maybe we will- I just want to back up first of all and tell you that I did something super weird last night. I hope this gig our lot attractions in part in part because of what I heard you were talking the other day to was an Anti Huber meant I was entered human. They had neurobiology from Stanford. s ill, and I heard him on your show- and I also heard him on Rogan briefly, and he was talking about breathing and vision, in particular vision and such they'll, be interesting way. The inside of the I've physically changes to bring in more peripheral when you relaxed and more targeted when you're not well as the same sort of risk on the nose, and I took a deep dive on this term and act. Six weeks ago I had my whole knows: rebuilt cut me open, peeled it back four and a half

hours under shaved turbinate put the sap them back where it belonged, and I barked on a very weird week of indescribable a blue misery and regret followed by a kind of bliss. That's easiest described by doing this. For the first time in forty years, I can bring and last night I put a piece of surgical tab on my mouth, because I wanted to see what I felt like going through whole evening, only breathing through my nose. This would have never been possible ever before in my life, but I you know I was. I just came off a big trip and I was exhausted and I was like God. Tim wants to talk like seven a m. My time this is brutal, but I put the stern go tape on my mouth and I woke up at five. A m feeling is I slept for ten hours, I'll weirdly, awake and cogent

This hour, which has a long way of saying thanks for having uber men on your part cast, it must welcome his market these are really and I'm glad you didn't ask now. You know we would be having a very short. be having a very different conversation with you and they end dates How many times have you run into civilians, friends, fans who have said that I took I heard a little something in another, wise long conversation and I applied it and the needle moved. So thank you. I hear it every day, which is what keeps me go in and it some really gratifying to have and fun frankly, to have conversations I deeply enjoy that people can tease apart in those ways, rightly the other two hour.

Conversation, they grab two minutes, they try one thing and it moves the needle and they think themselves holy shit that tiny little week actually move the needle. What else? What tiny tweaks. Can I apply what other tiny rules can implement that will move than you know. I I I like how that opens the aperture of your awareness, with what you see in what you question. Ryan in life saw it it's it. Fortunately, for me, happens and often, and I try to direct the conversations to on earth those tools is it always lead to bad weather? can always and never are bad words bit pig where its big words, usually the case in your vast experience, that

small adjustments are infinitely more powerful than large ones. often times they are just four pure obvious, maybe aspect of compliance when people decide as in years resolution I've never actually before my life, but I'm gonna go to the gym fourteen times a week or I'm gonna. train for a marathon and get on a treadmill for the first time and do a training run a few. Five miles. As my first work out, it's almost always doomed to fail. The side effects are too great and by side effects I mean physical, I mean, and psychological, I mean social. So it's it's! It would be much more effective in a case like that to do say,

but this one friend I haven't used or Google GO engineer. Did he made an agreement, the friend that they would go to the gym together? Then all I had to do. Spend ten minutes of Egypt and methods walked round the Jap just ten minutes at the jump, those that they could just they could just eat, candy bars from the Prussia. I mean they just have to be the gem for ten minutes and if they were, if, if one of them didn't show up, they had to pay the other person one dollar. Now this is a trading Is this type situation like a dollar is not a meaningful sum of money to either of these people, but that agreements lead to a common. Wines meaning doing what you say you should or want to do, that lead to both of them losing our a fifty plus pounds- and it's always, I think, better- to stack that back in a way where you'd know you can clear the hurdle in the beginning, sear setting the game up, so you can win rather than trying to do too much at once. I think

It is certainly a pattern of observed in all of the behavior, change that I've studied, which, at the end of the day, is really what I'm looking at behavioral change. What actually gets behaviour to change and it turns out. that very, very small steps with immediate positive feedback like the tape on the mouth that and a proof of concept, works works really. Well all advice, it seems, has some sort of corollary in poetry and that's Robert Frost right. There were leads onto way. You know you don't get a clear look at the end of the path really ever buy up you're on a path right now, such as it is, and that's gonna, take you somewhere. So in general, if you go in the right direction in general, it still going to be crooked and circuitous. You know, I'm thinking of the moment met before I had heard your name before?

I had seen your books before anything, Tell me the way you remember it, because it's it's now, it was too thousand eight. But when I look back I have two distinct recollections of the moment. We met one in a bathroom and the other on the escalator. What do you remember so I actually remember standing in a hallways. So I don't know a few slip me a roof here. What happened to fill me in on the other two, but was there, are guided by? fancy urinal or an escalator that hallway you know, I'm gonna have to hear more about this, I'm having all sorts of feelings right now, but I member. I remember getting there and by their I mean, the e g which for people who don't know, wasn't in some ways a predecessor or prototype of TED early tax that right

and so the e g was certain by Richard saw Mormon, who also started TED, and this particular event was and I want to say, Monterrey was ready to Monterrey ends. I was kind of fresh off the boat coming my first experience of being foisted into the public. you foisted sounds maybe a little bit forced but feel voice. Rinsing foisted works, voice down in his own for tired, I believe, hosted on my, in particular. It is, I was gonna, put it and this is right. After the for our work work, we can really found its escaped velocity and it took a while it took awhile and I was very, very, very intimidated- and I remember I remember at least part of our conversation, but I would like to hear your recollection. Ok sense, sounds much more multi textual when. But let me tell you what I think happened.

And then I'll tell you how I often tell it when people ask me and now that who have become so conflated, I'm not sure which is, which is honest, but I do the Sentence- and I bet my life on this. The first sentence you said to me was: I want to hear about the testicles at that. The first sent in the other TIM Ferris uttered, and that's why you're on this podcast, because as a result of that sentence in a completely self absorbed way, I completely rethought my speech at this talk which, by the way, was not yet even remotely formed. I thought I was there to share a few remarks on discoveries behalf who was helping sponsor this bacchanalia, but when I walked in and saw my giant What oh hanging from the war in eighteen minutes tops my grow. On the changing phase of the modern day proletariat, I was like wholly crap, I'm in trouble

I'm on escalator at this boy and that's why Europe boy say I want to hear about the testicles, and that was you and the way I remember it. Would I think happened was you when I proceeded to talk, about dirty jobs. We introduced ourselves. I congratulated you on the book the you'd written had not read and you can go Delayed on the show that I was hosting that had found its own weird trajectory right at that point, two thousand eight I had not formed Micro works, but dirty jobs was a number one shown discovery and in over a hundred and eighty countries, so both of us were job on the edge of our first real hit and both of us were trying to figure out what that meant visa fee. a TED talk in Silicon Valley with these incredibly precious people and their smartphones ass? It was

it was so weird for me, and I had to be weird for you of separate. So before you tell me what actually happened, We just add that when I tell this story, your stand next to me, urinating in the men, room- and I say that's when TIM Ferris looked at me and said I want to hear about the testicles I'm not sure if it didn't happen that way. It's better story. If you and I are taken a p and you hit me- that line, but in full disclosure? I get happened on the escalator, as we were going up to that mezzanine. You know I wouldn't be terribly out of character. For me to say it in either locale, so I I'd say we go with me: go at the urine all since it interests it. It makes such as such a better movie our bathroom break. Yes, exam so I think that makes epidemics of better stories. Let's go at the urinal.

I do remember opening with that, because I remember being nervous. I recognized you to know who the hell I was certainly I had more hair then certainly I do. I do remember that much butts I was very or felt very out of place, and so before saying anything to you as I. What could I say that would not, b, something he's heard a hundred thousand times before you nailed it. and I knew from watching the show that yet again sense of humour and as well. This is gonna go down aims, or it's gonna start a conversation. So, let's, let's start with testicles a team did more than that. I mean I really my purpose in having you hear kidding aside, is to simply say thanks, and so this is but backhanded compliment- I paying you because the greatest thing you ever did for me was motivate

by a sense, being out of place, a little nervous and just wanting to cut through it turned out to be brilliant advice. You did want to hear about the time the goals so that in the next few hours eyes stout. An outline for a talk on the beach thus removing testicles from a lamb with my teeth, which was a very controversial episode of dirty jobs, but turned out to be a very powerful one, because it illustrated something that here thirteen years later, I do believe as headline NEWS, which is be wary of experts, and what I was trying to do. That speech is point that is a guy impersonating a host. I did everything right. I called Peter. I called a humane society to make sure we did this job right and as a turn, I'm doing that job right was the worst thing in the world for the Lamb, the right way to do it, for

a lot of reasons is the most barbaric thing I'd ever done on television and their reside in a kind of per capita that turned into a pretty good point, which led to a speaking career and between two thousand eight and now as a result of that off headed conversation, com and at a urinal or maybe an escalator. I probably given five hundred talks, on various versions of be wary of experts. And so here we sit Micro, thanking TIM Ferris for wildly and Roper comment at an otherwise August gather, while your your most welcome. I'm I'm happy to report that might make us Mary fifteen percent can be paid in arrears. That's that's fine. I won't charge interest I do remember. Beings so impressed, because I knew

If this had been kind of popped on you at the last moment- and I had spent probably that point months- Thinking about what the hell I was gonna stammer out at this, or that comes from say four hours. eighty four hours and in dog years, and you got up there and you'd much late of course, I would have a better understanding of how you head harnessed this. Natural ability are cultivated. This unnatural ability to extemporaneous they talk on any subject imaginable, including porcelain, dolls, three in the morning and I was so impressed at how well you are able to sort of jazz improvise onstage with that presentation, so kudos to you as well made,

can riff on this as well, because there's a weird relationship between advice, execution at call them props or maybe talismans, for lack of a better word in this. This crazy speech I gave has been viewed like yours, millions of times on the EU. Tubes and stuff, and they cut this part out like in the very beginning. I walked out on stage, and I said a few hours ago, TIM Ferriss asked me to tell him about the testicles, and so that's what we're going to do. They cut that out. I remember that and that's a shame, but there was a prop the amen really handy that actually is fired me to go for it. They had these like these trading cards, they may like baseball cards with the faces of all the speakers on them and there was a stack of em like fifty of them.

and around those trading cards was a thick black rubber, band. That rubber band looked exactly like the band that Peter told me to put over the scrotum of the lambs in order to return, the flow of blood. There would ultimately let the testicles drop off blackened and shrivelled three days. Hence. It was that rubber band in my pocket. That was like you know something tell that story, because now you have a prob you have a completely unsolicited request from a guy who wrote a book with the word testicle in it and have a rubber band in your pocket. What else could I have done TIM Just to be clear, that was the only book title of mine that had testicle in the title arising out of it. I should I should I feel, like I've, earned the right to write a book or testicle the title of this point. He flew do rob it. If you do,

and I'm not invited to write the forward to that book. Then, then shame on us both. Oh, I think we'll have a Walter journal style illustration of your face on the cover with a nod and a wink, I can't imagine otherwise it be a pop up. It could be a pop up scratch and sniffed positively D. on the budget of the publisher, our aid and I'm in What do you remember about your talk? What in the world did you talk about? Two thousand eight on that cartels age on the dark and stage I talked about fear as it related to number things, including swimming and then testing assumptions. I didn't learn to swim until my thirty's the number of near drowning experiences when I was a kid and swore off swimming effectively

didn't learn until nine hundred and thirty. So I talked about overcoming my fear of swimming through a method that tests pretty much every assumption of what people might think of is proper swimming technique not too dissimilar. Actually from the so called expert advice that Euro saved on how to remove testicles, in that it turns out that proper instruction is difficult and fraught with all sorts of problems, and so I walked people through how I learned to swim in some of the technical topsy. Turvy approaches that Terry Laughlin, with total immersion swimming uses, to cut her in the entire. technique upside down and then applied that two other things like tango and language learning to show some of the principles of elevated learning that hot between disciplines see this more. That Van diagram thing you you're

good at putting a lot of dots on the table, seemingly disparate dots and then connecting them, and that as a parlor trick, six degrees of care, bacon is good fun in fact, Jack and I made a show called six degrees during lockdown that they try to capture that same delight right up, saying, oh, that peace, fits in an area where I never ever would have thought to even see if it fit, and so if you're talking about taking attack me that allowed of thirty some year old, who couldn't swim to be able to swim that apply that same technique to winning. Did you win that boy room dancing thing. I It is to the eye. Was a semi finalist in the world championships of arch and time tango in urgent to submit it to the semi finals, didn't make it to the end? Didn't when the semi files always a bridesmaid, while always a bridesmaid. That's why I'm so? What? What

is that a moment that realisation that allowed you not to be afraid of the water? also allowed you to almost win ballroom, dancing which I'm assuming also allowed you to do us of other freaky things with your body holding his breath to sleeping better to down the list goes. Is there? Is there a secret sauce? That's a play What all of this I think there's gives us this, and the secret sauce has ingredients and the ingredients are largely comprised of questions? so asking yourself if I had to focus on, say twenty per cent of the techniques that are recommended which twenty percent, what I choose and why or twenty percent of the material in the case of language learning, which would be highest frequency asking yourself what sequence is most logical or what is the sequence that is taken as common practice best practice? What if I did the opposite?

but if they did the opposite for twenty four hours would, if I did the opposite forty eight hours is. It is a very high leverage question if I had to remove eighty percent of the training. What would I remove and asking people who are so good at a skull, but you shouldn't be, for instance, if someone were really good at Ultra marathons, but really large, not built for the support that not a human spider or someone was short and really good at swimming. You could ask them if you had to get rid of eighty percent. What would you do and what are the biggest wastes of time that you see novices engaging it's really a series of questions. Some you can ask yourself some you can answer with the help of experts like Terry Laughlin or, for instance, in the case of sports. You can very easily almost always find a silver medalist or even a gold medalist from past Olympic Games,

so you can take lessons from the zoom or in person for say a hundred dollars tuna dollars an hour, maybe even less and the DE training could just be a sixty meant a conversation when you, where you ask them these types of questions whose good at this who shouldn't be and the secret sources really a sequence of questions that allow you to begin testing assumptions and pushing at the edges and the boundaries. What is the most important or consequential question, but you ever ask yourself, I think I think it's probably some variant of what might this look like if it were easy and- and I say that because Many of us, not all of us, but many of us are so accustomed striving for. Sixth, dear that, if we're not read lining, we feel like we are not doing enough and strain is not always in

the creator of potential forward progress and in fact, with total immersion with Terry Laughlin. He said when your training, if you are out of breath, if you feel tired you're not doing it correctly like we are doing technique, training is not physical conditioning, and that was in Epiphany army. That applies to a lot of things: the weather, it's in business, whether it's a dealing with your inbox, whether it's dealing with your in laws at what might this look like? If it were easy, I think, is a question that certainly asked a lot in the last ten years. Merit is that so good, you know again, there's an artistic corollary to that we have asked on here. An old friend of mine months ago called Michael Geller, whose a singer and chuck each had a music teacher many years ago in high school who one of those men towards on steroids who just changed our life, but they both talked about

technique in the same way they revered it and they cursed it. When you're in the audience. The last thing you want to see is some working hard at being great right? You don't we see the sweat streaming down the singers face unless you're in the like the pop world in its Michael Bolton in his car strained- and I you know it that's really singing a real singer like a Dietrich featured disco or a gym Morris or a Pavarotti at his prime. You know their faces, go slack almost and what they're doing is at once in comprehensive, believe beautiful. all and seemingly sleepy you don't see their technique, and so it there's this this dichotomy of. First, you must master the technique and then you must forget it and then people,

paid to watch you die agreed at agreed. I mean it is getting to ease or getting too elegance, where you're you're, using the fewest moving peace is possible to get to a beautiful outcome or presentation takes a lot of thought. Its excel hath takes quite a lot to get to that point, to get to the other side of strain or to find a path that doesn't involve the display of strain but what a great word elegance now that doesn't typically apply to the way you lose weight or the way you up your workload The way you learn to swim, but it sure, as hell applies to the way you dance. So it does, and I think it applies to all the same. He just mentioned. I think, driving for elegance and elegant solution. Much the older design, I think, was Dieter Rams, I'm beginning the name wrong, but

a I want to say had designer at Braun decades ago, whose work has featured in a film called justified and in many other places, really looking for Paul design that simple design could apply to swimming it could just say alright, guess what we're not gonna focus on breathing at all for the first few weeks, you're just gonna kick off side of the poor in the shallow end and focus on assuming hydro, dynamic forms and then standing up. That's it just gonna focus on that that is an elegant launch. and starting point for developing competence in the swimmer, its Elliot well back to writers and artists and poets throws said: simplify, simplify, simplify it's my favorite quote from him. Now he could have just made it simpler by saying, simplify and by by repeating it not twice but three times. I think he made an elegant

and and made it memorable, how important is it to be memorable these days? I think it's important. Depending on your objective for deepening in your objective. I would I should also say that have become very sceptical of of any thoughts of legacy or staying in people's minds. If we think of Alexander the great like opened it and the name his other now I was as I can't even died, or even if its first, a last name, obliterated of all time Alexander reaches its like Madonna. We just no one name. Ok, so if we don't even know that, his full name off hand. I think it is quite ridiculous. Dicks, that ain't one's gonna. Remember me in twenty years, even ten years, so I'm hoping for me, being an indelible mark. I dont want to be memorable, but I want my advice to be memorable if I have a high degree,

conviction that the advice is is actionable, attested in repeatable. So in a case. I do think a lot about what creates attention first, because you need that's a prerequisite for memory and then member ability- and it's pretty simple, I think at the end of the day I mean, if you conjuring images and telling stories which you do very very well, then we are innately equipped to remember those things anything that especially related were also really biologically evolved to run, number, which is why things like memory palaces work so well, though, the local technique of say, placing different objects are talking. Points represented by images through a landscape or a house that you know well, and this goes back to do the aborigines and in us earlier certainly includes people like Cicero. Remembering

points in oratory there. There is, I think, a blueprint for creating tension and member billowy attention getting a lot of ways, including tell me about the tat. I tell me about the testicles look homage to keep coming back. To it, because, while I agree violently with everything you're saying the humility the dispensation of advice is so breathtaking. Look I this weighs on meet him every single day right I've been out there I will hold on hold on hold on. What are you are you? Are you disagree with? What are you? What are you violently leaders? Disagree? No! No! No! This is the front this, the juicy stuff. No, no violently agree. I I agree in ok, I miss her and I was not looking for a fine, I'm sorry, I'm no, no, no see more arduous over cabinet. I see what I like to do is juxtaposed the land. from time to time use a word like violent with a surprising word like agree

Thirdly, you have got it right, so we inviolate disagreement with a great many things? Sorry, I said disagreement that but let's assume I said disagreement here here is something and I still think we disagree, but how interesting is, that in the thirteen years since I've known you your headline, the headline. Oh, you mean you'll, never ever get past the for our work week and I will never get past dirty jobs. You will always be the guy who run that book. I will always be the guy who crawled through a river shit. That's bullshit waited, but at base. I started building a foundation. Thousand and eight, and if it had a motto, it might have said short cuts. he too long delays and new building, business around the same time around this headline. might have read. You can do this faster. So

One nice out there saying you can do this faster, slash more effectively and another guy saying there are no short cuts. How can the two men possibly agree on anything. But the fact is you and I probably agree on damn near everything. but our headlines, our single minded proposition, as the ad geeks would say, are diametrically opposed so When I look at the headlines today and when I look get all the crap and my news feed that screams out in twenty point Helvetica it's that which I think people come Lee Trip and stumble over because the headlines of bull crap. It's the story that matters and we use headlines to get people's attention and we use turn of phrase. You could have tat me on the shoulder at the urinal, which would have been weird and said I MIKE I'm TIM, I write books, climate

and of your show, and I would sure like it. If you talked about that time, you castrated lambs and I never would have talked about lands and might impede on your shoes by never would have talked about Castro lamps. But you didn't you say I want to hear about the testicles, so headlines, fascinate mean opening gambits fascinates me, but course. Neither of those things matter nearly as much as what follows because way leads onto way. I'm done talking for a minute. Agri I agree, the headlines are a means of grabbing attention and they don't need to be missed leading, but they can easily be misunderstood by virtue of their brevity and punching us, and I think that you could take you could take the view based on the headlines. That were diametrically opposed. But when you dig a little deeper, I think we're aligned and using in some cases this

language, in some cases, different language and what gets lost, often in the hunt for short cuts, at least with in any of the word that I've published is that a tremendous amount of thinking is required. On the front end, it's like an up front balloon payment in order to find not necessarily the shortcut but question assigned so that you can find an elegant solution involving fewer moving pieces. That doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to finish something in. Sixty minutes and then spend the rest of your life rubbing cocoa butter on your stomach on a tropical beach drinking margarita He made a weird against it. I did in office is that this is This is part of my charm. There's a four letter word that used to use a lot that I, Thank you use as much anymore I read something I think I know I think I can guess what it is, but I am very curious to see if, if, if I'm right, please does a start with agent,

and with as it does it does yes. So that's that's what I mean by shortcuts we're all attracted to them, but now my pop used to say short cuts led to long delays, but a good, workable hack, still has an enduring appeal in a two long didn't read culture. So you were really really good at assembling giant collections of hacks, but then it felt like you stepped back from that a little bit. I didn't. I didn't like the connotation and baggage that that term began to crew. Over time as it is a hack. Well there's that said history, the etymology of of hack is pretty pretty fascinating to south guns talked quite a bit about that. I care or call that it involves drivers in some portion of the UK could be making that up.

sounds like a good story, though none I know you are not making that up. My friend, I believe it was Glenn Tobruk in the amazingly underrated band squeeze. who sang but behind the chalet, my holidays, complete, and I feel like William, tell me, Marion on her tiptoed feet, pulling muscles from us but then he goes school faces at the sky. I Harold Evans paperback, surfers drop their boards and dry and everybody wants a hack, everybody wants a hack, so that's a London guy singing about wanting a hack- and I remember googling that years ago, going what the hell are you talking about. You write. A hack was a cab driver everybody cab. You have. the tremendous memories? Are its impressive? I I've I've always been impressed by it. Well, I brindle night through my nose them. That's right. You you have the oxygen advantage at the moment. So this

This word hack just got dirty. It was I going from like a erotic. Are work to the nastiest, poor and possible. It was just a transition that became so tasteful to me what matter not to cast aspersions pornography, Let me take the highroad on that. You take the highroad on that one or pretend, but nonetheless, lemme get back to my focal point, which is this this term hack, I think, began to represent. For me, a certain reckless disregard for first principles, and it was a big it becomes it became an obsessive focus on tactics with complete disregard to thinking through things from first principles, and that bother me. So, I stopped using the word and never use it effectively, and I really stopped out Sarah to those NATO has nine, maybe a little bit

but I stopped probably after I want to say after the flower body- and I was, I was effectively done with that term. For that reason interesting, you know it's like wary of experts turned into a title for a dirty jobs. Special and in a really oversimplify way because up by and large really in the business of dispensing advice, although God help me, I think it happens a lot, but what I try to do with it to the extent that I do anything consistently is, is challenge conventional wisdom or at least ask what happens when something, that's probably prudent and wise gets dispensed to the masses and what happens when advice becomes cookie cutter and what happens when that becomes a bromide were trope or a platitude. Well in Silicon Valley, what happens

Is that that turn of phrase whatever it is wines up hanging some boardroom persistence in all with some guy and a kayak paddling is ass. Office is patently paddling and you know stay the course right stay the course his great advice, if you're going in the right direction, but all advice becomes just a comedy of bad advice when you try to apply it to too many people, which is, I don't know about you, but that scares the hell out of me. It is terrifying at its fine, when people are only equipped with answers that can only be provided by someone else and are not equipped by the questions by better questions and I think I kind of trying to play your game and I'm gonna mess it up. I think it was Voltaire who could have been gutta who said Joe a man not by his answers, but by his questions will end and

There is a lot of truth that could certainly just be judge. Any human by the question they ask ends dependence on experts on some levels. Necessary. You need specialist severely if you're going to have now. surgery, you dont want to jump on Youtube and try to die Wyatt, and I was so we haven't evidence on specialised knowledge and skill. At the same time, I think it's very dangerous for people to never question specialise. Skill and the sum of the red flags for me are any expert, a Yahoo com, themselves an expert, that's that's! That's something to watch out for and number two. This is true in many many fields. By the way, a number two would be any expert does not say I don't know regularly the people in my

spirits of the best at what they do the further along they get the more knowledge they assemble clearer it becomes how little we actually know when you get to thirty thousand feet and look at the sum totality of what we have achieved and if you talk to any really really really good doctor, I should say any, but many good doctors theirs it there's a joke. You'll hear, which is fifty percent of what we know is wrong. We just don't which fifty percent and that's an honest, take if you look back through history- and am I dont- have the attribution here, but I think of this- this quota laudanum paraphrasing but now we take our previous positions to be completely absurd we never assume set. Our current positions are absurd, right or will be proven absurd and that certain true to be the case. It wasn't that long ago that we did surgery on newborns without any type of

I mean this is this: is this is not hundreds of years ago? This is relatively recent thalidomide and the recent, relatively recent oversight of agencies. Like the FDA me, these are new developments. I know run a needle through the corner of the eye in into the brain scrambled up a bit and that'll fix them right, right, yeah, Sir, it's it's, I think critical. If you're assessing experts are people, you considerably ask experts to questions so that you get to see if they ever say I dont know, or we don't know that too. That means indicator of someone who has their head screwed on correctly I had no idea. I had no idea who to higher to do this thing to my nose. I talked to three actors and they were all very good and very

well reviewed, and you know I live in a nice part of the country where there are a lot of very smart people with a lot of sharp instruments, were all capable of rebuilding my nose and am the first to talk to me about the recovery and how yes, it would be a bit unpleasant, but by the third day, such and such and by the seventh day so and so and hear some people you can talk to, and this is how it gonna, transform your life and in the third guy Rabble Seth. Mrs name just said: oh yes, well, your nose is a disaster and there's no easy way to do this, and if I do what need, to be done, you're going to affirmatively hate me for a while and just stop talking, unlike the fact that I'm listening because well then I'll take the splints out and that's going to make you hate me less, but for the next three forward,

Ex, maybe even a couple of months, you're going to feel like MR potato head and somebody hammered a fake nose into the middle and you're not going to like it, and then he stopped again like he. He wouldn't ask for the sale he just he was set and we will check Judging me, you know, and so he was my guy and he did it yeah, and he right, I hated him for a week, but now now right. So you know I TIM for guys, like you, and I we are in weird spot, because the basic humility that you're talking about that has to be that has to accompany any persuasive advice, is being packaged by publishers and executive producers and networks and people whose first order of business is to sell the shell sell the book, and you don't do that with humility. You do that with claims

you do that with proclamations books like the secret, I've got it and for twenty nine ninety nine I'll share it with you right it. So transaction, and you can see here on the way any hit show is promoted today, especially Nonfiction can see it on most of the best sellers, especially nonfiction, on the shelves, and I think that brings us. I wanna be respectfully your time chuckle have. We really been overrun our already and if, if you, if you want it further ten fifteen. I'm happy to do that. Some, not I'm not hour good, because this is actually important me on a personal level. All your books are swell. What am I, rights you invited me to be in. It was called the tools of titans till the titans and again it's it's a wonderful

word meant of amazing chunks of advice from people, you know who have gone on to do great things and term. How do you remember it you because its it a little fuzzy for me too. I just talked to marry the other day and set it to we get. Why I'm not in this book, because I wanted to be in this book and TIM wanted me to be in the book, but I couldn't sign the thing he sent. So what the hell happened that I get my own way will and what did I do to keep me from being Tightening your best selling books dammit! Well. What would I vaguely remember was that salami bloody back up and pride some context for folks. So this was tools of titans. Is a collection of advice, split into healthy, wealthy, unwise Ben Franklin style who, by the way, you could think of certainly as a nonfiction self,

author opening many red eyes issues book. By the way, I'm sure you read I have read: Isaacson spoke it's great, just fantastic yeah and what hilarious can correct and caricature incredible human being sorry, but better Franklin quote I'd be remiss is the dirty jobs guy. If I didn't circle back for his two word, eponymous the best, what may be the best quote ever fart proudly That's right. I mean that that I think just speaks volumes to to I mean the stove was great. The whole electricity thing awesome, you know, but far proudly, that proudly fur products is a lot that could that could come from from an old that could come from Dogan, some near a japanese buddhist

Master in that bag could also be a co on I mean, does one far proudly, how does one part proudly, but I am losing the plot here, so coming back to tools attains healthy, wealthy, wise? had. I let's call it a hundred twenty or a hundred thirty different people and tidbits of advice, and then my my comments below their advice, thoughts blow their advice, and my recollection of of what happened was you. Have you have a very competent, very well trained phalanx of lawyers and protectors, and- and I came hand in hand with this this document, if, if, if we where do include you to have a release and they ve they circled the shields and for whatever reason it I just did it wasn't a match I don't remember exactly all the space,

fix. I do remember a lot of red lining and then ultimately, just didn't happen butts. What do you remember that? Well, I remember my friend, Ferris was putting together another book and called to say look our converse nation, on your podcast, which now is we called it still. There TIM erasures very clever by the way, should focus. Ireland or desires. You know licence right. The first I didn't have a name. I didn't have a name, and I did the first steps, friend Kevin rose who bust my balls constantly. He did a fake intro and called it. Tim Tim talk, talk episode, one and as I will that's that's not what I'm going to run with, although a lot of the the the old longtime listeners still call it TIM Tim Talk talk thanks to Kevin, which is pretty hilarious and I just said: do it I'm trying

He a clever, try to think up something some some amazing turn of phrase and eventually got to whatever ups. It was the required at that point that I have title so the TIM Ferko was, but yes, so I'd done six hundred or so, although that's now six hundred surprise, several hundred and you'd been on the show which was which is it Ray conversation and death. I thought it was so much fun and you called to say look that conversation is done really well with my audience and a lot of gems surprising, Gems came out of it and I would like to print a chunk of it in this book and I was like great so I talked to Mary, who really runs my company. That's my business partner in this smarter than man she's like okay. Well, the document from the publisher is pretty broad

and we had just gone through a whole series of very disappointing experiences with publishers and networks and so forth. Right we were literally we just. had committed to taking a consistent hard line with every piece of boilerplate the came across the transom I had really- and this is my I'm not putting any this on Mary but I'd. I had said to marry just maybe month earlier, I've had it. I've had it with misleading headlines. I've had it with craven com hello executives, who insist on a title that simply not consistent, with who I am or what the show is, and I'm done with boilerplate, I'm just can assign anymore boilerplate agreements because, while I trust him completely, I have no idea-

What hack is on the other side of the publishing wall, who's going to take my name and likeness and slapping on the back of the book and said, take it from micro or something right? It's not that I forgot. That would happen, but just as a prince We were not can assign anymore boilerplate, and that came to our world at that moment, and at the same time I was out in the world doing a bunch of other stuff and not and not fully focused on the fact that this thing could actually go off the rails and I might not be counted among the titans, which of course was whispers stupid on my part, but also a full disclosure I did say to marry? You know I was getting very nervous. This was four years ago. Maybe I was really starting to get nervous. Micro works had been around at that point for like eleven, nine or ten years. Maybe, and I was out there giving advice. saying a lot of things that had been repackaged were turning into

sweeping generalizations. I was getting very nervous aside, just didn't know if it was smart for me, while, as flattered as I was when I will, to be among the titans. I didn't know modesty aside, if somehow or another, that would dilute what I was trying to say to parents and kids. We're wrestling with three four hundred thousand dollars of student loans and try to make this giant decision. You know so It was just this weird, perfect storm of confusion. An ambiguity, boilerplate anne and dread. Honestly, I was drunk adding what was happening in my own career with people who were intransigent in these it in these areas so in in no way was a day reflect, John you. It was just me saying in general to publishers and networks. Now I think you better at seven

in the sense that I deftly would have taken your face and put on a lunchbox, I definitely would have licensed it too. pull in China to put you on buses. No, I I think you made the right decision, because there reality is you're in a position where you are your brand, you need to think about how that could be abused. How things could be associated with you or shortened even write a cherry picked in some way that be difficult to contain, wants released into the world and I've been. in many many similar situations where I've been the person saying no and you to have policies for these things, you can't make every piece of paper. comes in front of your every offer. That comes in front of you. A separate decision because you'll die a death of a thousand paper costs. You have to have policies and there is good

to be some per cent. Age which end up being missed opportunities or Miss calls so you and I ran into a sort of mutually exclusive. Policies in the sense that you had a policy of not signing for the plane. I had a policy that, with hundred twenty hundred thirty people, we just don't have the bandwidth possible to negotiate one hundred and thirty of these, I mean the entire book about be about red lining releases. Just a pretty red book. If you think about it. Somebody at least, as I have said by Micro, should there's that's. It had a red line or release twelve easy steps. By my current for too long didn't read: LISA this book is Isla De L D. I don't sign it. Oh my god

many things I haven't ask you about and I feel so stupid forward. But, like I said at the beginning, I didn't really want to sit down and pick your brain purely as the expert you are me, p should know there? truly a wealth of advice between the hard covers of your many books, but on a personal level I think you're right. I did make The right decision, but I am nevertheless sorry that I'm not in your book because I'm a huge fan of what you ve done and what you're doing I think we should start the flight path to end this thing, bye, bye, asking, though, why are you so bring back and how times over the course of your journey. Have you felt the need just to take a deep breath I saw your email kick back right. It's, like, I think, said, look if you're asking me to write a blurb for your book. I can't I get twenty a week? So as a policy, I'm saying? No, if indeed

even bother to leave a message cause I'm not checking voicemail right. You, I get it man, some I'm the barbarians or at the gate, and sometimes the barbarians, are your friends right and how you you have to do something, and yet made time to do this, so again, thanks for that, but why? Why are you retreating at this point? Your life? I retreat quite regularly and that's been true for at least the last five years in part, because I recognise I reckon

voice start to get emotional, their chronic spry them that we are not trying to spend your chalk, in which case I fully expect it everywhere helmet MIKE. Let me get get back on track your so I retreat regularly in part because we all have or I'll speak for myself. I have many default behaviors. I have many defaults predisposition, actions say to over committing to certain types of projects are getting over excited by certain types of offers, or pitches I m susceptible or to the moment, TIM created by group. Think

even among my best friends, who I consider incredibly smart, principled, thoughtful, philosophical people. Nonetheless, there are these micro or macro trends that can lead you to show held to do things due to fear of missing out or otherwise, and one of the few approaches I've found that helps me to see those things for what they are is to really across the board categorically say no to certain things and step backs that I have the forced space necessary to be able to hear in some cases, though the whispers from across the room which are the actual, intrinsically generated passions, to do something else that is not on the beaten path, and I don't hear those things. or or see them I'm in the maelstrom surrounded by noise.

the signal is not always a shout at its and as one my friend got Elsie put any city centres of threatens actually is at best opportune. the best opportunities never have best opportunity in the the headline in the headline in the headline of the email in the head, her and you need to pay attention to not just find the opportunities but to find the peace and to find the ease to find the rest for this that I think, are all pieces, me at least of a successful, well lived life so for that reason, I'll take extended breaks, I haven't done any paid speaking in years now. That was one I decided to break from. I haven't done, really any extended travel for business purposes

but blurbs and so on. I really haven't than any of us, and I found that also geographically isolating myself for few months every year provides the space necessary for me to If the life I actually want to live, not lived the life, I think I should live wise words you know. If there was a silver lining during this lock down for me, it was the fact that I are you taking long walks every morning and at first I would spend their time listening to podcast listening to just catching up chuck, and I took a lot of walks five hundred miles apart and had a lot of conversations but really with deference to Jacques via the best parts of those walks was when I turned off the podcast and when I wasn't making calls when I wasn't doing anything but walking and that's when

I think your brain starts to come up with ideas, you didn't know it was looking for and if you can get that accomplished by holding up upstate or going dark for a bit or just taking a walk, I mean that's a chunk of advice. I'd feel comfortable offering to just about anybody our brains need to and ugh, in order to ramble, and if our brains aren't rambling, then there never going to stumble across anything there only owing to be served. Things and boy come every Howdy serving something it seemed yes agreed and all add one more thing which is just related to what people might think of his self help or how they would define that when people here, the term self help they often think of the prescriptive nonfiction books,

that they see in the airports and so on it, but self help can take many many forms and in fact I would argue that almost all reading most of what we do who is with the intention of self help or self improvement in some capacity, and that can extend to, for instance, fiction writing and you can find help? You can find growth and a lot of areas, and I would say, for instance, reading dune food if you want to improve your leadership skills or just have a hell of a red and really experience some of the best world building sigh fi imaginable eat that can take you some very interesting places. It doesn't have to be from someone hawking goods on top of a soap box, making bold. Claims promise me you ex Wincey within thirty days you can actually

really gained a lot and grow from looking in unexpected places. Fruit doesn't have to be from someone who is promising anything to you well. Well, that was big topic in our cumbersome and by the way folks you should- I mean if you ve, got the time we ve already been ambling for an hour and twenty but timid, I did have a great talk. A few years back Can you should check it out on his podcast, because one of the things that I stumbled across and our conversation about nonfiction was the value of fiction and for me, Travis Magee is in this book. The very book tat we ve been unpacking here for the last thirty five weeks as the most influential imaginary figure in my wife that character inspired me to the business smile around the whole notion of of premature retirement and entire rip

retirement in installments, right and so many other things, but you're you're. So right answers or not necessarily always where you're looking Sometimes there are urinal next to you, with the whip, with an off handed com from. Forgive me, here's another four letter word. I bet you hate, but a guru of advice, a man who is literally build an empire on dispensing advice chain, the direction of my career with an off handed comment, and so that's probably a good place to leave this sum between the incredible intention, anxiety of dispensing time tested advice The incredible randomness of just living this life and being open to hearing hearing.

from a stranger that that might have more impact and import than you can imagine somewhere in between the two. There is probably something it smells like wisdom, Well, when we met, I am really happy to have met. You enter the chance to hang out and spend time together. I always enjoy it right. Another book ease up on the boil plate I'll, do whatever you gonna, do an animated series and take clips of your vote from the last podcast use. Them this voice over? If that's, ok, because I feel it Felix the cat revisited if that works, for you, my favorite

line, inspired accelerated guards. Don't hang up. I have to do a shameless plug for my damn publisher, who I who I promised. If they let me talk about this book, as we just have to remind people, but they can download the whole thing over on audible or wherever people do. That Chuck is everything you probably had questions you wanted to ask, but I cannot but notice we ve been talking for roughly Diana half. Now it's been a long time and I tried to stay out of it as best I could. Although there were a lot of places, I wanted to say something just funny like, for instance, that I know happen to know that Alexander the great first name was Bruce. was it the row who said simplifies, simplify, simplify yes, because he had a horrible stammer. And you mentioned a needle in the corner of the eye. Well, that'll fix. I met. I wanted to say it. Well, it worked for me

I kept quiet out of respect for the conversation self TIM. If you don't know what I'd know Chuck now over forty years, Great thirty, eight years. And while I am deeply suspicious of all Roma I will say this tell me if you agree, but the people you ve known the longest, somehow become exponentially more important to you, the older you get four No other reason than the fact that you knew them, then isn't that weird yeah itself a hundred per cent trio. My experience. I just recently had a reunion of my oldest friends this last week and friends from twenty plus years ago. Altogether, barbecuing hang

now, and one of the most incredibly nourishing things that do every year and that's because you knew them then, and that in some cases it's because you have mutually assured destruction, which some are just too many shared experiences. That's right! we now come in with, like you, were there genius inverse? Thank you, for using the word testicles at a time when that's, exactly what I needed to hear and precisely what I needed to talk about anything I can ever do for you in the future. Don't hesitate to culture, if I'm taking emails, I may have gone dark ass. I do retreat from time to time on my head, the failings. We apologise balance, notably that Socio economic research, world headquarters and looked around you be like,

not, alas, Alex say your brother gotta hit buttons and fancy things happen. As for the rest, Thank you for listening. I already shamelessly plug the book and you're. So sick of hearing me say: give us a five star. Reviews are not going to say it again. Don't give us survives, you know what we have. Many right now we don't need any more. So please do not give us a five star review, unless you care about him Ferris and chalk, who of frankly could use em all right, then