« The Weeds

A cheery discussion of global warming, Obamacare repeal, and death


Ezra, Sarah, and Matt pick apart Trump's next executive order on climate, exhume the AHCA's corpse, and read a white paper about death.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This. We support is also sponsored by Nature Box, gotta Nature, Baxter, Comstock, weeds for fifty percent off your first order. The following podcast contains explicit language, so I literally have milk. them to another observant, weeds bucks, a policy Pakistan monopoly network. I met You're glaziers join as usual by my colleagues has recline and Sarah Cliff Sarah's congratulation banks and back nothing's changed and healthcare. As far as I can t miss nothing, nothing happened, it came and went on ass. It was amazing, we're gonna we're gonna. Do you know Indulge Sarah, maybe talk about the health care. Thank still lives. We're gonna talk about dead cat bouts talk about some research into into death to you.
talk about climate change, but you know I also want to talk about ourselves. Yes, that's the most important part of this punk asked. Is it? Is it not the people, not the policies, exam It's the people who make the women who have you read the treasure. You can be a person, you can version in attendance at our very first weeds, live show. It is April, eighteenth here in DC, at the Warner Theatre. and get all the information you need at vocs. Dot com, Slash, aids live. What is up, it is vocs outcome that Vocs with ivy slash weeds I've ox not found yes, you do, you will not find it there, but you will find it advocates. A clone, slash, weeds, live April, Eighteenth Warner, Theatre, we solve tickets available and we would love to have you they're. So come hang over us, it's good, it's happening so soon, because it's unlikely that global warming, cut the planet before our life show by noon, see how did that
that's why they pay me the big, the big weeds bucks, but this week Donald Trump came out. with his long awaited executive order on climate change, which most were verses. A number of Obama era. Policies on we ve got a great explained on the site from broad plumber about it, but very nice. I thought encapsulation in his first paragraph reset It is to be no executive order. Press had Trump ordered his cabinet today, dessert demolishing a wide array of Obama era policies. global warming, including a mission, was rules for power plants limits on methane, leaks, a moratorium on federal, we sing and the use of the social cost of carbon to guide government actions. This follows: I'm saying- and I guess actually executing a reversed of Obama's Petre, fuel rules for cars and suvs. So, right now the Trump climate change strategy is you try to undo as much of what President Obama has done as possible, but there is a lot that he actually is
not doing, or I guess more to the point undoing in these rules. He is not explicitly or even really saying whether he pull out of the Paris climate accords, which is actually pretty big deal payload administration, Rex Teller, send does not want that to happen. He thinks it would do some very significant damage to our place on the world stage. Somali the. or does not. Actually, challenges is important. It doesnt challenge an EPA is authority to regulate House gases that is afforded the Supreme Court has found. It would be legally differ, the challenge it, but it's something many people thought the chop. Administration might try to do what they are doing. I think this is most consequential. Part of their new rules is trying to in a way that, at this point is vague role. The policy that Obama built on top of that authority from the EPA to regulate the existing sources of. I'm an emissions and power plants, so we don't yet. exactly how they're going to do it. There is a one strategy they could take when they destroy
the whole thing that would pretty legally risky another strategies he could just. make it more modest. There are different regulations and definitions he could put into the power plant rules that did bomb has going forward either. This is gonna be a long rule making process. It's gonna have a lot of lawsuits from environmental us at wines its way through the courts. It is in an all cleared the Competition is a tragic doing, quickly, box. You follow As Obama didn't know, it took a long time and who is very hard, it's not by any means fully implemented even now. So this stuff is actually pretty the golden loose pretty slowly, but all we got a pretty big signal, sat from the Trump administration on what they're gonna do on climate change, and the answer is decide, doesn't really exist and try to undo as much as they can that they have the government is doing to fight it. I don't want to interesting things in the order is that it direct the agencies to cancer climate change preparedness plans that they had made, which is
it. Just like, like a small thing, I mean, I know from sort of the visual based around this, and I am one reason. Obama like had different agencies, develop climate change. Preparedness ideas is because it's good to be prepared for climate change, but also our good findings that, just like investing people in this kind of less politicized sort of thing like we're not going to talk about whether we should tax carbon dioxide emissions, we're not going to talk about suvs, we're not even going to talk about weather or climate changes caused by human beings, we're just going to say it's warmer than it used to be. That trend appears to be continuing ice caps, are melting, sea levels are rising. We should think about what we are going to do about that. Is it good low hanging fruit, they are beginning to get people invested in the whole kind of issue, and so you know telling the government that it that it it's gonna stop doing stuff like that is
good way of sort of something the earth around climate policies and trying to make sure that people who work in it, currents and real estate development, ranching and land management dont like accidental, find themselves becoming environmentalists, because they start thinking about this problem like say to everyone like we're. Just gonna pretend nothing is happening here and therefore its easy to stick with the idea that we should do anything, because you know because doing things is hard people are eager to have reasons why they don't need to make changes that are inconvenient to them or their business and so sort of creating this sort of like safe space than that contemplated. It is important to the kind of medium term politics kind of building on what now is saying it seems to take a eyed the you like what is possible in the future. Whether or not you work on these programmes, it seems like we are in the areas affected by climate change. Whether things I thought was really odd about the
negative order is that you have for the signing ceremony with a bunch of coal mines. standing around Heaven. You had Trump saying he s, design second order. He says you know this. As you know, this says right, you're going act to work. This is what he is telling these call minors who are there for this, signing ceremony in that just doesn't hunts to be the case, there are so many forces outside BP. Outside of these regulations that are not good, if you somewhere, someone the car industry that you have the switch of energy sources that regardless he's having this regulation. It seems I eat of this is not going to bring those kind of jobs back. There was a great quote that my colleague, David Robber, found from Robert Murray, who is kind of a call executive, now super into clean power? He told the guardian that Trump should really temper as expectations little bed, and I think this really speaks like a broader point about the policy agenda that we see again and again, is that the policy
those don't really seem to line up with the outcomes being aimed for I am obviously most familiar with this on the healthcare side, but this feels familiar on this level that there's like a photo opportunity with call me and there is discussion of bringing there's jobs back. It does not seem like this will actually accomplish particular policy goal. Yet if they have no plan for that at all, Dave Roberts NUTS impose had a good line where he said this is a plutocratic policy, wrapped in a populist rhetoric or together call stuff about see what they're doing Their messing have a moratorium on coal land leasing, because the curate apartment is repressing this land because taxpayers getting terrible. off, and so there is a moratorium on leasing it out at these blow market prices until it vanished. We pricing and what the job indecision Facebook saying is, actually you can keep.
Get a blow market prices while were trying to figure out how much it should actually caso. It's just a straight rip off taxpayers, but there's no reason to think it'll put people back to work. I want to put this little bit of a broader context, because two things about the surrender to me. On the one hand, you know, as I've been reading in and talking of folks who know this issue. Well there, alarmed at the message that trumps executive order, since they are not particularly taken aback by the content of it. This is a sea change in policy and the broader forces that are chile changing our energy usage and we are seeing some very, very positive trends there, the cheapest show gas. Technological improvements. Alot of the investments that were made no years ago are beginning to pay offer on renewables. That is not gonna get stopped here, and it's one reads Come on, it's not going back to work because and if he loosened regulations it is still not profitable to build coal mines and also, if you're, in she company thinking about building coal mines. You know that as soon as Trump is out of office,
someone else is going to come in and of its Corey Booker Elisabeth Warrant or Bernie Sanders. Her name Democrat they're gonna go back after call, so that that's one piece of it so related that there is a research note from the rhodium group that tried to look at what would happen if trump completely eviscerated, all the climate policies he's taking aim at and they found it under that scenario, is so full success for Trump. On this plan, the in now world you would see greenhouse, gas emissions falling fourteen percent below two thousand and five levels by twenty Twond I would just slower than it would otherwise be. We are still seeing, down in the amount of carbon. The. U S economy is is using that said who actually meet the Paris climate goals and the chemicals are not that aggressive. They are not holding climate change. two degrees celsius level that that people think the need to the level of change needed to be so deep so profile and I mean this far beyond what you had any way among what Obama,
had he done so bright bloom and had a great peace on this based off of a research paper. In science- and it found that order to meet those goals that global carbon mission- Energy industry had to fall and half each decade between now and one Fifty so we had to keep having how much carbon the whole global economy produced. Number two net emissions from land use, so agriculture, deforestation. All of that had to false there. It is Europe by twenty fifty we reduce, even though we need to be more people in Iraq. Where we are still producing meat to feed people could meet as a huge source of greenhouse gas emissions it is hard to see how that happens, and then, finally, We really had to accelerate the development of technologies to suck carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere that had to scale up to the point where, as pulling at five gig tonnes of co2 per year by twenty fifty he's a big number. So, on the one hand, Trump is not dramatically with its executive order. Changing the path of cod
in emissions in the Eu S he's moderating drop he's making a drop not as sharp as well. I ve been otherwise, but it comes in context of a world where, in order to avoid some, the worst inches of global warming, we really need to see incredibly and credit we began in the coming years. I mean that the kind of action would be drastic. You hear people like, though Mckibben COM, to a world war, two style like a war footing, mobilization- and that's just getting. I mean Trump is just not only Shopping America's progress on that the potential depending on what he does with Paris, can stop the world's progress on that and wasting that time is really damaging right now, in some respects, though, the political dynamic that Trump is unleashing could be positive for the world. I mean The problem we have is that the gap between like what we
need to be done to to arrest this, and what it was like convenient to do was so large right that than just wasn't going to happen, and would you really saw two thousand nine Democratic Party did not want to do big time. Carbon it's. What action Obama sorted did what he could in his second term through executive action, but it wasn't nearly enough to solve the problem You then saw in the twenty sixteen primary, which got quite he did and in a sort of tossed off retorted, we kind of way. Bernie Sanders would at Times act like he was espousing the sorts of I'm a change policies that you really need Hillary Clinton sort of not even nominally, but neither of them, Bernie Sanders its heart and soul is like in
his better care for all. I really I'd pushed back kind of Bush symbols had he spoke the carbon tax proposal he had written and out. It's been introduced in the Senate for years. He's been pretty aggressive on this issue for fur. Well, before the campaign. I just I hear you saying I don't think it's fair it. He was early on don't want to. I don't Oda Bernie centres that happened I said, I think we should talk about it, but it's like in politics real world doing things. Political organizing movements you can we do, a certain amount at one right. It's clearly possible, as like Amber of Congress to sign on four incredible. Ambitious plans, unlike fifty different issues but, like me, you saw in two thousand I ride is that the Democratic Party had a limited issue, pipe and the thing they moved on was healthcare right, and they were we.
for that and they did it, even though all of the key players knew it was not the more important issue, chose to move on healthcare anyway and to have the kind of change on climate that we need. It's not just that, like a party that leaves climate change is a serious issue needs to have political power, but that He needs to decide that it wants to be able to be top of its agenda, doing something drastic on this and you could imagine a like slicker kind of republican more committed to appearing reasonable who Ike, slowly, plucked away at the threads of what Obama was doing and slow walked everything while doing a lot of talk about us worse it serious, but we need to think about China and India kind of like d mobilizing people, whereas I think Trump by like
making his like fraudulent, economic policy built around idea of coma boom is going to make people and laughed more comfortable. About saying no, we Shall we need an alternate big kind of strategy her and I dont know that it's gonna happen, but I mean I can very worried about this, that not to say that you know both ideas about what we should have free college or prescription Should be cheaper or something are an important, but I see like remarkably little real forest in like actually, we are going to try to reshape how the american Economy Energy system works and like are really going to care about this, and I hope almost that Trump, like wakes people apple by adding it speaks.
Like energy is a particular issue right leg it. So when she easier to rally people around Free college health insurance that you can see the people about health insurance, you could see the people not going to college. If the problem is so clearly in front of you and, I think think out of the ground breaking point, but that it's just a much harder part of your legislator of your and activists like actually get people like site, and rallied around this just seems like a really big up battle, so I'm also curious to see like if these types of actions like create that there are no about homes in politics. We see one People are getting rallied around something until there is a threat to a the sudden, that's kind of catalyzing of that to get people interested gallop. Has pole showing this dislike soaring level of, like people accept. an alarm about the state of the environment which united
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what really hurts and which industries it hurts. I mean it is just a pervert form of shit. The american political system is bad at dealing with, but that said, have had probably in college campuses a pretty robust climate movement emerging in recent years and what that move, is needed is very concrete things to fight over Keystone Excel was a huge catalyzing agent in the climate movement because it was concrete It was like a real fight that could be fought, and you know about what was wavering on its who is actually persuadable and ultimately, Obama years, they won that fight and- and I heard and pry even myself said: do you know that Keystone excel the be all and end all of climate policy, but something that can I just made the point to me and in its correct was that sure, but if you're good build a movement. You actually need things that you can win. You need a new real, tangible things for organised around Anitra austrian is the green. organisms, organizing Randy's different moves from Tromp he's pushing forward on the keystone,
a pipeline. He mentioned overturned the fuel rules which actually want to highlight just for a minute it's such a dumb policy. We had the auto industry they were, does gonna do this. There is not a ton of complaining going on, they have all be able to do it in the past. It makes a cars better. You know it forces lot of innovation is just not on. huge, the on american politics and who is leading to a more fuel efficient, Green Otto Fleet and trumpeters did away with it for honestly really no reason and then, when you have this year, which is not certainly induced the kinds of protests that say the travel ban dead right, you ve nonsense, continuous protests erupt and in every state capital war? You know and have recalled plant in the country. So I It was a question of how much in the chair the area where the president is less persuadable. There is a feeling, is this. Some kind of mobilization we saw on Keystone or bigger, given as he said, both the growing.
Polling, suggesting people really quite concerned about climate change and also the polarizing nature of Trump, as a figure It's also interesting Annette from the international angle. I think if you are trying to come up with an up stick scenario here: it's that, instead of having I know everybody pull out of the Paris accords, because America's abdicating its leadership role that actually lie our competitors seen opportunity by being the players who keep the climate of course, going to take over a leadership role from America. So that's not weeping for us and our geopolitical standing, but it might be a good thing for keeping the rest the world committed here that other countries might hate. So much that it becomes useful politically too should do what he's not doing, and particularly for a country like China, which I think is a jointly the advantage of accurate perceptions work, is giving up, at least for the moment, its global leadership space,
to push and therein and try to take more of a frontline role chilling. You never saw from Obama in like a clear way because the politics hard is someone to say that like look, cool is really bad. They like it's true that trumps orders here are not gonna bring call back and I've seen a certain amount of, I don't know colonel glue world, Agnes about this, and its also always worth pointing out when the President saying things that are true. but what you can do by deregulating is slow calls decline, We need to do as a society is like drastically accelerated like as quickly as possible. There should no call being mind or burned its incredibly toxic. It puts out mercury that poisons children's brains. It kills through kill admissions asthma. Many many more people than
Nuclear accidents combined have ever done is really terrible and it's been challenging for geographical and electoral math reasons for Democrats in the past to like, see a way clear to see that, in the way that, at a certain point, tobacco politics as a farming and jobs source was for a long time, a sort of paralyzing factor in that cigarette issue and, at a certain point, the shape of things, got turned around the right way that you know the bill. Clinton Ministration found itself being comfortable to say, like nope like we just have to say that, like smoking is bad It is sad there are a lot of good people who work on time, go farms and they're not like lying to kill thousands of people, but they are in fact doing that, unlike we need to put a stop to this,
and something you saw in the twenty sixteen election. My pride is that Hilary lost, but she could have one and she couldn't one without any call country type stuff fridge. carried Virginia. Even though Virginia has those coal counties, she lost at higher really badly, but was still clung, swayed and was like add a margin where winning back coal country type things was now What was critical, and I think that opens the door to try to speak in a more visionary way than anybody did I, like you know. What are we really going to do with solar and wind and renewables? you going to do something. Brad, I think, was bred had a great piece about nuclear power and you know- could you imagine a serious soda effort around South Korea style roll out of nuclear plants?
which you know discomforts alot of people by actually addresses a lot of the issues that exist here and obviously it's like. It's a tough nut to crack, but the first step towards that is: really taking it seriously as it nothing. You do want to crack at me, like, as I guess, down, Humphrey finding like nothing in politics is exactly easy you know and like to do big, important things. You yourself have to take it seriously in a way that I feel are Democrats have been alone, half hearted about traditionally that it just hasn't quite seemed there. You think that both like in the map in the generational politics, in the level of holding that you're, seeing that space is being created for people to say a word and really foreground? This is a topic autism. before the move here, just one status amazing on us there now twice, many jobs in the? U S and solar power than in coal, and that
Have you on some margin, eventually matter in the politics of messages? Is it the case that we have a coal mining based economy there, more yogi teachers, U s now than there are cold minors, not to say that the law, of a coal mining job is and tragic right. It's not to say that that those people's interests should not count, but it to say that this is a place where I think party trumpet, very seldom nineteen seventies view of how the american economy works, but just politics in general I think, is a little bit behind the economy actually is in terms of their are in. Trees that we cause disruption to all the time that are just as much much much more. at this point in terms of employment and the coal mining industry, put in the yoga teaches that away to talk about healthcare, Yes, it away, and we became things that aren't that easy, so invocation last week and Sarah, and I left everyone with a way more work to do, and
The aim was was still alive and fighting- and I came back and Asia is no war. So I literally have milk. I mean not milk my wife is weakened, so I've have soy, milk and my fridge MS round longer than this health. Cloudy I mean eighteen days. did not survive an entire, but it was. It was two and a half weeks at this gag about two and a half weeks at this bill. The moment has introduced the moment. Bahrain said were giving up on it. We don't have the vote There is now more chatter of maybe vote next week, but but it's really annoying no plan, Paul Ryan, spokesperson twitter, saying like no. This is not happening. Its final adoration didn't even last long enough to get to a weeds episode. We talked about it Stay morn, then they cooked up this idea to take out the essential health benefits them holding die than ours and we had like a weekend
the discussion about another vote that like so here is what I think of the deal like. I I when, aside with where Ezra was on this a few months ago, I believe after the election- and I think I have then can you two points of view that they are just not together enough to do that, saving, whether things we ve seen. I think the fundamental thing that is unsolved. The answer energy and speed in all those things is that you, you clearly have to camps of Republicans right now, Christian Cubs he used to work in the Senate has a really nice piece on this on the Federalist and he basically, airlines are two camps and Republicans right now. One are their appeal, as they just want If Obamacare they don't really care about replacing it, they can think Obamacare is about law that over a good, the insurance market, and they would like to see it god. This is generally the freedom, Caracas and then you out their play, serves, who feel like now that we ve expanded insurance. We have an obligation to keep most of those people covered.
There is just not. This is a divide and health policy that goes back so much further than before. H the aid- and it's just One that has a lot of common space. To get that gets really hard to see how those two groups eventually come. together, just as we are heading over here to tape the weeds there was- reporting and Bloomberg that some of the moderate conservatives are talking to the Freedom caucus but How you resolve these issues- I don't see it, I think they may be pushed to buy crisis points in Obamacare this year that we can discuss bet kennedy- was great by any Means Baldock the problem as a strategic one. If they better strategy, they can nail this. I think, there's this fundamental divide in the Republican that is going to make it very very difficult to accomplish anything. I have so much and I ve been over to begin I've. So much thoughts has greek so what I just want to just say this: this was a terrible piece of legislation. It was a bad
bill? It remains amazing to me that Paul Ryan managed to produce a piece of healthcare legislation that will opposed by the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation and the Cato. But I just don't understand happened here, had no major interest groups in the health care world behind it had tanning salons. I know I mean he got some the business groups behind it, and the neighbour of cover not a major health grew, but mainly because from from what you know, people speculated immediately asked yet tax and also its good, doesn't fits in with him for tax reform, which is coming, but they take just you have to really run a bad bill. If you're, the republican speaker, the house in particular, public gets bigger. With such a deep relationship to some of these institutions produced at two heritage, any eyes Ryan has to have them All their healthcare experts has come out against it, so one bill did a lot of harm to people. I mean this failed because,
the oceans, indefensible policy and that's why but he ever was able to effectively defend it. But I have been thinking a lot about where it leaves Republicans and I've come to sort of? Have a view may be that in hold before which is Republicans are caught? in a really unusual trap, which is that free market sort of corner? free market health insurance is actually, expensive, It is more expensive have at no or signa or whoever cover somebody, I would add, the apples insurance than it is to have medic cover them. Medicare cover them to have the british healthcare system, the Singapore in Canadian French, whatever healthcare system cover them, and yet we ve done but this on the on the show. But before, but this is because, while other countries do it anyway, medicated Medicare do it as a regulate prices centrally, okay. So the way Republicans have tried to deal with this problem that they want a
market system with unregulated prices, but they do not want us, and a ton of money is to try to offer people system where they just don't get much health, insurance or they get, is catastrophic care and maybe I'll savings account they ve to fund on their own, and I think, if you saw One thing in this debate is it that is not going to work. People do not want that and they don't want it so much publicans and never ever under any circumstances for any reason at any time, try to sell them on the vision they. Never come out and say our vision. So you have the health insurance. It covers less as way higher deductibles and weigh more cost sharing the reasons you might want we'd, be we shouldn't somewhat. Maybe even have an episode of the weeds on this argument that maybe just way over invested Medicare and medical care and health insurance is broadly and it societal mistake. We do it in the employment market, and I were you can really make an argument here, but nobody wants to hear it. It's not an hour, that is popular Republicans, don't make it in fact
What they say is, as modest pointed out many times, is it working? Give you more generous healthcare with lower deductibles and the government is going to spend less maids everything's gonna be great puppies ice cream, taste, less feeling it's all gonna be Fantastic Republic is now faced with, is really difficult. Choice, which is, they ever decide to be serious enough to deal with that, which is if they accept that only healthcare system, ultimately, the people are going to be happy with, and it's gonna be stable is one way actually getting reasonable health insurance cover some when their second is affordable to them to purchase. They're gonna have to spend a lot of money to get that healthcare system in place It will cost more than Obamacare. If you want to get the people off of medicate, it costs more than Obamacare, so Republicans could have a free market healthcare system, the cost a lot of and they ll be reasons you might want to do it an argument you get when you serve push conservative healthcare people on this yes, we spend more than other people do on drugs and so forth, but it's important
All this innovation and the rest of the world is free riding on our innovation, and so you know sucks, for we just have to keep them a lot in order to keep making sure that we have these big advances in drug development. Medical devices and all these different things- and there is broad- comments about Frida, I needed a lot. You can make arguments right is worth just spending more money on better designed, but fundamentally free market Ish healthcare system. Both Republicans have not done that and until they deal with that central they're going to get nowhere, we had a Trenta very nice, be stated by Jacob Hacker Pearson, and they may the argument that what really destroyed this bill was the Republicans used it first and foremost as a vehicle to cut taxes on rich people that if they had just decided to tee the money that was in Obamacare and instead of cutting taxes on rich people from no obvious reason they use that money to restructure the healthcare system and restructure Obamacare into a man
all that they felt was more consumer directed and that you know they felt was more innovative and so on. They could have may be gotten. Done here, but as long as what they are real, gonna. Try to do here is massively cut spending on health insurance in order to cut taxes for rich people there just nowhere. Them to go, because the only way to make all that work is to persuade people that a system that gives them super hi, deductible care and in many cases no coverage at all is a better? stem and that it is not an argument. They are gonna and it is so not an argument. They're gonna win that they never actually even try to make it yes fayoum. I agree Nobody goes I really think that the more moderate Republicans in Congress need to take this opportunity to think about what it is. They want to see happen right because one passage,
for outcome of all this is that the Trump administration through a mixture of indifference and malice kind of wrecks. The exchange is part of Obamacare end, because was a big debate. People like to have a word, so the word we came up with was Obama care, and because the law has like a budgeting, indifferent things going on with it the most still Dave thing than the law is the exchanges, so it becomes use well to use Obama care both as like a word for apart and is a word for the whole, but those are different thing right and if, at the end of the day, if we come back and there's a new democratic administration in for eight years and medicated expanded a lot and we regulated private it's a lot and we ve done all these deliveries. Some reforms but Changes in red states have withered and died, and maybe it still up and running
No in New jersey or something. liberals know exactly where they want to take the right they want to take it the same place they wanted. Take it when Bill Clinton was president when Harry Treatment was present. After was president like there is a relentless drive to say what we should do is I never buy up for health insurance that is delivered by the government and that vision. You know, conservatives beating nineteen thirty six they beat it again and ninety four Nine or whenever was like they. They beat it a million times, but it keeps gaining ground here. I keep partially re yeah. They keep it doesnt conquer but lady lost like the United States, but they learn their knocking it back. If you look at the long long long term, trajectory rattling employer sponsored insurance is slow, early, withering away and enemies.
right, but everything conservatives like you, know, there's like it's gonna be goober like we're not going to make companies say they have employees, we should cap the insurance. Deduction, rightly everything, conservatives want to do on all policy areas, encourages the further with a ring of the employer market They say they want to repeal the Obama CARE employer mandate, so If one side could before, but Dick general relations. Always a more. We should do assign more people for government insurance and the other side This kind of running around, like I don't even care about healthcare, In the end, everyone's gonna get signed up for government health insurance, which is fine, me, although I also think it would be sad for it to take like forty more years. I'm like an old man saying you know when I was a bill Clinton, because it's stupid, you know, and so there was this other idea right like MAX Bar
yes and whoever owls New America Foundation, they were like. Let's have this solution will have the Heritage Foundation inherited foundation. Had it at some point- and it was like here- is a thing right. It's an oak idea. I guess, but if Republicans, like even the most modern Republicans dont want to make it work. Well, what are we doing because they see, to object to the Freedom Caucasus desire for nobody to have health insurance definitely not one single so like what are you trying to do? It's like it's really arm like the Susan Collins, indeed Heller and Charlie Dent Who have rules to like be like? Ok, guys like? What are you trying to say you one you here, because there are lots of this friendly Democrats and staff, who are like looking nervously over their shoulder at Bernie Sand? and everybody else, and I like produce, have been here guys like this? Is you either modern Republicans, have some kind of moderate idea or else
he's gonna like Twitter, their phone and we're gonna. Have this like sad situation were ten percent of people are uninsured for a long time and you can get a policy outcome that they don't want. Like it's really it's like it's really stupid and they they should Did you say like what is our desired and state here and being articulated what that is, then their negotiations, whether its with the freedom carcass or its with german Chin or its would Donald Trump, where anyone can proceed from like a goal? right now did you seem confused and eight I am stand. Some of Hawaiians that the frustration republican leadership has some of these people, because it's like they all said that was bill. Obamacare and Obamacare extended coverage dollars, so? They came up with a repeal, bellers eyeglasses people going to lose insurance and then Suddenly you have members from unsafe districts like all that is really. What did they think we're gonna happen if you, because both legal
it's it's like front has to go to me and like they're, the ones who should have a replacement plan right or should say, hey, you know a guy's legs. Actually, we think this bill. It's fine, like weeds, came up with some nonsense. Reason to oppose it, but people thought in March Two thousand nine, like probably won't get some Republicans, devote for some version of this plan because it's a lines with or somewhere, We can say they want to do. So there is an amazing quote MIKE our colleague just tired got from republican Senator from Louisiana, whose name really is John Kennedy, who said think the main area of consensus right now is that Obamacare sucks, which, like a really got it almost part of the problem for me at this point that like, if that is the main area of consensus, it explains a lot about. Why figuring out what comes it is not easy either. I would say in terms of equal what what are the moderates want?
I do. The Cassidy Collins Plan is probably the best regulation of that at this point, but even that something And this is you can? If you, Google, Cassidy comes Box, you could find it explain or on this the idea that's some states, opt out of avoiding have they want other states to continue Obamacare? Presumably some states could travel civil pair of how you be unsuccessful, as they have been. Under alarming here, as I don't think, cons is like can actually make. Is I commit, I think it is really telling that there, been so little interest in it, you don't see chastity called being invited to the White House by Donald Trump because dislike talk about this plan that Donald Trump now says. Maybe he needs a democratic support that might be able to get some big varies leaves you talk with run, widen right, they felt like to win him over. There is like the sort of democratic want contigit interested in this stuff as I mean Democrats, is no like what is the reason at this point to support it.
Like that, that would end Obamacare and all the red states. I think the dynamics of this. My thoughts in the next few months are that, we're gonna have like a bit of a law. People will talk about replacing Obamacare. They won't come up with a new plan, but though keep saying that their working on some kind of and we'll have these kind of, like flurries of news about possible boats and something I the rubber really hit the road? Is this bring insurance companies are going up side, if they want to sell on the above and care marketplaces, particularly like the date I am, My calendar is June twenty first. That is the day that insurers have to decide. Are we doing Obamacare next year and I think you're going to see a lot of insurance companies pullao that we have team counties in Tennessee right now. There's no one signed up to sell. I think you'll see more. Those places, and the above considerations wouldn't really go to the man to get someone to show up design coverage. They would go twist arms and make it happen. I don't know that the Trump Administration is going to take that up
There is actually an interesting bell that I set it around. under from Tennessee that state. That has some sums counties without turns companies selling. He wants to take a different view. she wants to say you know it. If no insurers are not going to sell we're, not gonna try and make them on the market place. You can just take your subsidy somewhere else off good place and by insurance elsewhere with that which is critical, sort of no bomber fix, but also undermining Obamacare by moving the subsidies elsewhere disorders Without would mean is that you are selling in a space where the insurance regulations don't apply. Yeah reside, I'm sorry and a space cell bias weird low, Paul, there's actually Simum Tenancy plans. It still are allowed to underwrite for pre existing conditions. I just learned about this today, but the Tennessee Farm Bureau offers health insurance for some reason they are not within the Obama CARE regulations, universe. So someone, their subsidy and by with a plan that eliminates people with pre existing condition, so it's
It seems a face like that Obamacare effects by dont know the Democrats will see it such, but that really seems like the next time we're going to have big movement and discussion on this is like late spring early summer as yours too, this is a marketplace. Place will be fine, like California, New York DC. Those are gonna, be totally fight, actually these ones that are more rural states, often with Trump voters that are really might struggle a lot in the next. What do you think about this? Tosh possibilities. Here I mean I don't I don't just mean they try super hard to get an ensure to sell me sixteen tenancy counties, but that they actually through forward guided through the way there talking to ensure, as both publicly and privately through the way Tom prices, interpreting and enforcing regulations. There actually try so the thing unravelled because down from stated belief, is it what should happen axis of explodes implodes, depending on who you talk to and then Democrats, crawling on their knees to make a deal trump, so I think
what we know is there is a lot of leeway to do this. I wrote an additional vocs care of access new health guarantees letter, which you should also scribe too grown edition of yesterday. Bissing there's a lot they can do so if they want to sabotage sabotage, is on the table. The kind of figures the ties opportunity is there's a lawsuit right now about em cautionary production subsidies. This is about seven billion dollars and funding for a low come on man, Americans. It makes their deductibles smaller makes their Kobe, smaller and the lawsuit that hinges and angels ago. I want to say, like I'm still in John Boehner was speaker, the House Republicans filed the lawsuit saying that these were not appropriated correctly. It was more colossal. Don't have the upshot of convex floating the Obamacare marketplaces, so the biggest thing could do right now to sabotage is not defend those costs during production subsidies, the above restoration incorporating these are legal. We can continue these the Trump and
today. You know I'm just dropping this lawsuit Nick ugly, as an amazing, explain on this and vocs that I how they work, reading, so the opportunities are there. I don't feel about a clear sense of how the Trump administration wants to play that I know, but you said Trump has said his expectations. They would explode. He can make that expectation reality if you'd like to lick that is well within the Trump administration's policy options I just don't have again hand all right now, unlike if he wants to push the button really hard. I just want to emphasise in case anyone. Maybe Jerry Kirshner listens to the reeds something for how stupid this idea, like. Can you imagine if, when, like the first one words of the islamic state had come out. an ash Carter whom ever came to light, has as a goal, we gotta do something about this. I says and abominable like now, George W Bush is idea to invade Iraq.
I said all along. It was a bad idea, which is what people come over slaughter some Americans and will be like see assholes, I told you so like that would be crazy. immoral but which also it would just be dumb. Like Donald Trump, is the fucking prince he can, deliberately engineer: bad outcomes in people's lives, but it really bad outcomes and lives of rural counties in red states. and then say this shows he was right all along and now Democrats are going to crowded to the table debate like why which Democrats like you're you're Camilla Harris is like man, you really fucked those people intended Let me now make some compromise of the? U and taxes it doesn't make any sense now. It is true that if you just do only per life is to Weedin Joe mention Senate. See that
trying to fuck over Trump country voters and then obscure. Who is doing it and some help Joe Mansion, like maybe that, will work. I don't know it sounds weird, but like it's crazy right, it's like nothing happens like this, you, go through history books and there is no example where they're like and then the president did this thing, which he knew. Would make people's lives worse, not because he thought it was worth the cuts because he saw partisan political advantage in May the peoples of our wilfully, his own voters, like it's ridiculous, you worry with Trump that he believe some of these things and he saying, as you said, you hear any, like all. He told republican Conference like the best thing for us to do. Politically will be delighted explode. But where do you like? Ok, he's bullshitting Farren fright its politics You start looking at me. Like I don't know man, this guy doesn't know anything about politics like maybe he
that's true. Maybe he thinks that if people in rural areas owner can't get healthcare that that somehow helps him win votes, I don't know why you would think that, but it's out there as an idea- and its is ridiculous. I think Actually, it is worth saying, is I agree there. his head, but this specific way It is ridiculous, is one that I am not sure they have thought hard about, which is it the mechanism that it would be using. There is not a mechanism that wins you both so in two thousand and ten. If you'd pulled people, they actually did not blame Brok Obama for the state of the economy. People thought it was George to be bushes fault, that the economy is extremely bad. But then, if you look at what happened to us in ten mid term elections, sweat Democrats, Guts- don't they got completely destroyed and again, if you pull people, they still didn't, think it was proch above is felt that the economy is bad, but they were exe dreamily unhappy with how things were going and when their experiment. It, how things are going? They blame the president in the particular reason
This is a bad idea in in this case, is you imagine, rural Vassili had seen it will that only yes, but this is actually a continuous problem. the right to take an issue on the travel ban. We kept seeing its muslim men now they have to be in Korea like, of course, it's plus a hopeful. Why would you why would you possibly egg but imagine your rural voter in Tennessee who Donald Trump got elected and how they don't have health insurance. It a b that when you called him on the phone- and you say hey what do you think about the care they having Obamacare garbage, and even if you say whose fault you think it is. Is there I think it's Barack Obama's faults names on it? That's his care, but this is done in a motivate them as a voter to go vote for trumpeter public. Is there they're not happy there upset and when your people are upset they don't come out and vote for you like this, has happened again and again and again and again they don't matter matter, the other side they just get demobilized end
party when you are in power right at the other side's empower. Think all we gotta get you in power, but if Europe, empowered failing, and you then make their life force then, side. We need to give you even more power. They get apathetic about politics and other but comment about anyway. So your seats anything ever timing on this is like all the leading up to the mid term, elect and so you can have a lot of if you're, evil losing health insurance you're going to have a lot of very angry constituents going into the twenty eighteen election how about a year without health insurance, the new insurance rates will be coming out, as they always have lately, around the mid term elections like the timing, gets out thing: there's act for ever anytime, writs, politically advantageous to takeaway lots of people's health insurance. But you see this cut him lining up in we, that is pretty damaging So I don't know I mean I can see it both way. Think it sounds like everything Grant says in itself,
that you're really ridiculous strategy? At the same time, it's really hard for me to see the trumpet administration, which has campaigned on four years on repealing Obamacare aid to like actually do the work that is necessary to make it while so maybe like Billy do the things that unity keep those caution reductions as they like they're, not gonna, like that, bomb, but there's just a lot of work that goes on making the market places run well, so I think another version of this three could see in the marketplace not doing well is where doesn't come out of a place of malice, but like the lack of knowledge like a lack of just understanding or lack of desire to really make these runs while so there's no. Like bomb thrown in it's not like they say well, we're gonna, stop enforcing the individual mandate or so defending this lawsuit, but just like these, policy decisions that are that are wonky and behind the scenes, but make it difficult for the marketplaces cause. You know everyone
these are contacts to keep in mind here is that the market places like we're not doing stellar going into the Trump administration they are doing very well and like well populated states, run by Democrats generally so late Marilyn California, Washington State, but there is a real struggle. Only, I think, was one third of counties. Last year had just one health insurance companies selling the number of health insurance selling marketplaces has declined year. After year when I talked to former health in humans areas Secretary Sylvia Burwell. She set her big Brad on Obama CARE is that she thought insurers would take to this system much faster than they have in right. Now, the game Michael who's, going to sign up what new people come on the market. It's like how many people leave and how bout would be so you know The battle to keep these running. Well, you have to work at the the status quo would be for it to get worse? So, even if it's not through mail, as I think there is space for things to go wrong. precisely to push for a master do maker,
negative things that may or may not be gone wrong for people. That's our white paper, the weak man. Well, this paper is a follow up to an earlier today paper by Angus CASE and that certain I am pleased that Angus Didn Amy, stating husband and wife economics couple who they're doing research on death in the United States. it's an. They are finding in essence that white working class people have become more likely to die over the past fifteen years or so that this is concentrated among middle aged people and that there is sort of two different spam things got on one, is that there had been a lot of progress in disease cancer, diabetes, type stuff up until about nine ninety nine at which pointed it flat lines and that there has been a growth.
Recently in deaths attributable to alcoholism, opiate overdoses and suicide which they characterize collectively as deaths of despair, which is a nice turn of phrase. But I in some ways: little mislead I mean it's, it's a fun thing to say the least, document. A lot of attention been paid to these sort of race, ethnicity ending here, because it aligns well with what people are interested in contemporary american politics. But I actually think that the most interesting thing they do Yoda quickly say with a race ethnicity. Finding for those who have not been so badly. Basically, they show that the death rate for Non college. Educated white people is now high than the death wait for African Americans or for Latinos, and that is there
figure. One point wine, you know it's their lead, the heart and the thing I do not love this chart because it is compromised by compositional effects in both directions. Church, one point: two their. Their second hurt, I think, is better It shows that for black and white working class people death rates arise. It says that they fall in a lot for college graduates and also educational attainment, trafficking again has risen a lot, but anyway, after that they show some international comparisons and just striking like in all countries. Mortality rates are going down somewhat. their higher and lower in different countries. They are going up and down in different places in different countries, but There have been some rough economic times around the world, but it's not like in developed countries, you have, I don't famines or somethin
in technology continues to march forward, and so the death rate is falling in France is falling in Germany is falling candidates falling in Australia car you're getting safer. Healthcare technology is getting better. It's what you would expect of the United States. Is this like huge outlier had been falling and then in the twenty first century it started gone up and it hasn't got up to, is that for every wonder, that's for high school educated. The. Greece is concentrated in people who have been done to college, but it is so big drag as the older than the entire population of number yeah, so it's it is to a sub population with a very big sub population and Scott, not a lot worse, and you know they ve- should a big trends. Ride like
globalization, obviously exists and Australia are set and they are not having like huge increases in that death rates for people. So I have like allow quibbles with those papers on its media coverage, but that basic finding is wild yeah viagra without so that thither deftly been. I think some interesting critiques made of this paper to be Andrew Del men Forgive me. My name is co author all some day, each hour. How we there of oversight, did a good and in their basic augmented cynicism. Other places too is that one is here is that Non college whites just described a different group of people than it did in eighteen? Ninety, nine! You know when I look at the case NATO. I don't think the Gruber people's got is so different. Educational payment in America has not been undergoing a revolution in that period, but there are differences and I think it. I think it does make it hard to know exactly what you see.
But like now, I was really struck by the international comparison and something That was interesting and the international comparison one thing with her: when the original paper came out was that people said. Oh look. This explains Trump ISM, it's hard, see what's going on with Donald Trump in the economic data, because people who are supporting him or not, obviously does bandaged or not. Obviously, in the worst economic shapes, the economic anxiety thesis is a little bit hard to credit, but then meta folks, some folks this and said: oh yeah, but the most core me sure you can possibly imagine of how you're, doing, is life expectancy, and if that is changing for this group no wonder that their furious, when they actually cut interesting was it, we ve had very similar trump like right wing populist arising in Europe. We saw bricks it in the UK or, seeing you know, Le Pen is strong in France and Munich, such etc, but the not having the same thing happen. We are seeing this kind of underlying health design.
stir on unfold in those countries, so it means Why not? I am a little sceptical of this is a an explanation for it when populism, but the other thing there is really something that America is doing wrong. It is not enough but ability it is not something it has to happen when given a period of wage stagnation or financial crisis, that something has happened this country around a set of mortality causes that are, I again like I don't know death of despair cause. I don't think I don't think it's naturally the case, everything into a really good way to talk about things like addiction, a lot people who are non despairing, get addicted to something like opiates- and you know, and and the consequences can be truly awful, but nevertheless- We are seeing a lot of deaths from broadly preventable mechanisms, and it is something that is specifically how in America, and it is creating an adequate. Even a specific in America. Very interesting thing we note in their paper is it in other,
trees. We are seeing the death rate gap between the sort of high school educated in college educated groups converging using less health in a court. He- and here, of course, is seeing more and more and more so we're doing something very, very wrong, and we are seeing a problem of urgent in this country that is both as bad as Possibly imagine a problem being read in terms of its consequences, but is unique to something happening here so I am becoming Morgan vents. The unique thing really is tied up in oh boy. This is something they talk about a little bit in the paper, but there is, as other report I read recently, was from you. Nations. Looking at an international comparison of obesity, and there's this stunning chardonnay budgets. In a way similar to the chart, Matt was talking about Where are you? You see the United States going in a very different direction? This is one daily doses of opiates per million inhabitants and the? U s just like crazy,
easy outlier. Some of that stats in that report are there Americans, are prescribed about six times as many opiates per capita as citizens of Portugal and France, and even then, if you compare to like ITALY or Finland, we're just like not in the ball park of other develop, countries the United States consumes. Ninety nine percent of the world's supply of hydrocortisone, which is really a huge outlier Given everything we know about. Opium addiction seems plausible to think about that as playing pretty significant role in into this is an area where the Eu S really has been different than other countries. Other countries did not start proscribe prescribing opiates with that with it. the old do not currently have nearly as much opiate preschool. Big until you don't. I think about ways that the? U S is standing out like that. Certainly strikes me as one way We are also different right now
and that's why the desert despair framing, I think, is unfortunate, read it implies that would u S? Specific is despair. If you look at the state of the portuguese economy over the past ten years, is it's been horrible but eat? Let's sort of I mean push of companies and the american medical establishment and the government that, went along with this. The soviet trend off the hook- essentially I mean you- have in the. U S illegal way, way way back right leg. You had people selling morphine to people and selling heroin to people, and it was a big problem because people heroin is very good. Dave and people died. So the government made laws that you can't just sell heroin to people and they We developed some synthetic opiates but you would only use them in very rare circumstances, because its super addictive and its super dangerous, and there was
polish in the nineties, by produce pharmaceuticals who invented oxy cotton, to try to say oh no. We have come up with a new thing where aid is a new form, arm of opiate that it is safe to proscribe people not for an acute pain. Associate with a surgery but for chronic pain and it safe and it's not addictive gazettes, controlled release and then just wasn't true right. If we had no in the late. Ninety is that no, actually, if you start giving everybody opiates for cried pain, they will become addicted. Let nobody was saying at the time, That would be a reasonable trade off the chronic pain problem, so bad that we should choose offer suffer to it. They said it wasn't true. They said that these control release tablets would not be addictive. They paid out Billions of dollars in a law suits settle some false claims that they made it turns out. This does not effectively treat chronic pain. We
have changed our practices somewhat over the past four years, which is one reason that people been pushed into her when which is terrible, but still he eats we mean. I had a friend who had surgery recently and I was struck by the quantity of pills that he was given after it and what he did as I think that a number of people I know who ve answers in recent years, that is, they took some pills, couple days, but as soon as their pain became bearable, they stop taking the pills, even though there were still pills in the bar but I don't think it would be unreasonable for a person to trust their authority figure who prescribing doctor and you just keep taking bills. As long as you had some discomfort and you, you can't do that, you can't treat these medicines Irene. Regarding our nefarious things that happens, there is unpeopled solve the extra ones Brad.
don't actually need them but I think there are two things going on there like you said there is the marketing of pain medications, and there also is think this tethers something else. That's unique about the United States is. There is a lot of untreated chronic pain in the United States. We are and you know a lot of the country's I'm sure compared to their probably the only or one of the few countries that does not have a national healthcare system less access to healthcare and the United States and other. Places man. You know one of the stumbling blocks, While this was about marketing of opiates, that's why they took off, but another factor you had going on in the night. These was there is really a question establish medicine like you need to do more to care people's pain, particularly in cancer and of life, that just not enough is being done, So, even if you look at like why else is the United States standing out here? It's either to opiate problem, but it's also the fact that we have a very differ
healthcare system from both the countries we are often game compared to. I do want to note here that the case indeed and look at the opium question, and they say it's definitely making things worse, but it cannot account for the majority of the trend were saying- it's not enough to say that we do have is The problem is not to say, I think everything we see you guys. You said you are correct. I just wanna, I dont really quite boils down to two the opium assuming suicides have gone way up to, for instance, in it, and in a way that I think should be very concerning and that they ve got up sharply what cases in doing this is they end up making his argument for what they call cumulative despair and they began. to correlate a bunch of different things too, to these kinds of again what their conduct of despair- and you know they think it is a mixture of it paying its on marriage, ability its wage shocks, they just pretty interesting about how the returns on experience are basically disappearing. If we have a college degree. So if your worker, who
getting older and you do not have occurred. degree, So this is an aggregate, it's not far from the individual person, but it used to be that you got paid, moreover time because your experience was was worth more to employers now too and what you really like. That curve basically turns around in your very likely easily the labour force altogether, and so there are theory I mean opiates, part of this allotted different things are part of it, but the We are seeing Jen shocks to the sort of cultural supports. People have and do with a sort of cultural context in which they are existing. In a lot of these communities would somehow committees, although they show this, is less community specific than suddenly. I thought would have been before it's really started in certain areas, but now we're seeing in all of the country, but but they really argued that you're. Seeing is a lot of different things. Piling up and the reduced and in diminish living future prospects of people end up having expression in everything, ranging from suicide too.
destroying a lever with alcohol to audio addiction to to whatever this would be better The open crisis, I mean that's a clear thing. We could do and we'd some really good pieces we are looking at it to the points you guys are making that a very effective possible solution, not solution, but a very effective policy within the hope crisis would simply be making sure that all prescriptions for opiate painkillers are only for three days. You can back and get more than three days, but only for three days. At a time. Only four five at the time, but it is very sad they something going on here, I'm not sure how persuasive I found the cuban people of disadvantaged thesis, but I'm not sure we can. We can rejected out of hand either one other thing. Those interesting I going to correct us from earlier. So does Jonathan our back and your government here at this late hour does not draw I'm very sorry, Jonathan, well did nothing jolted, nothing. I don't even know who all is well
They highlight in their research is that they cut the numbers a slightly different way and they find that there really increase mortality. Is that its protection recently among white women between forty five and fifty four that they they make. The argument that that is what is driving a lot of the trends that are being seen and less among men. I do not have a great theory about what is different about the group, but I thought it was just an interest in other cut at this data? They could have also cuts against this idea of, as much of like trouble I see in plenum industry like factory jobs and those aren't actually the jobs that women are typically predominant in. so it's kind of another layer of mystery and as that cuts against this idea that this is like despair about loss of factory jobs. So little
in the south and, as it were, the as all these things make it into port, but also a really difficult narrative understand right now I mean I do think I don't know you know it'll take time, but I do think that he would make more sense to look at this public health issue as a public health issue. That is. like one slice, miss prescribing of opiates, one slice, a widespread, They'll ability of guns is a strong predictor of suicides you don't one site any their long. Standing well known american lives habits that are unhealthy compared to what seen in somewhat poor european countries. We have known for a long time that spanish eggs have longer life expectancy in the United States than than white people, despite much lower incomes and less access to that the health care system and that you know Promoting population health is not something we have actually
a lot of in the United States, except in the specific domain of encouraging people to stop smoking. We ve how success at getting people to stop smoking and it has done a lot to improve population health but they're. Just like has not been a lot of emphasis. On other aspects of it and in this specific realm of pay management, something incredibly counterproductive with was done, and case, a dinner economists, so as natural for them to look at economics and people are in economics these days, but it is really hard for me to look at this data and like see a clear economic explanation and they wind up leading to come up. is slightly wacky, it seems too stories about disadvantage, because it's like why people are disadvantaged relative to hispanic people. The trade in women Have not become more disadvantaged compared to mad ride like none of them.
lines. I been here true, you can come up with some kind of way to connect the dots between it, but it strikes me that a huge, It would be better to look at the specific channels and behaviors, and what can be done? I mean we could tax alcohol more. We could have fewer guns lying around people's houses. I mean of course, should be better economic policy having more jobs and higher wages, its own reward. It seems in many ways, but even before you saw this curve on the line, it would strike how much less healthy Americans are than say Italians, even though America's our lot richer than Italians, and that would probably be a problem worth sing like on its own terms and, as is already the richest country on earth and so only focusing on economic issues. I think it's not gonna like solve every social problem. We have, but
could solve saw via social problems is coming to a life taping the weeds at the Warner Theatre in DC, check that out at Fox, such reads live taking. My colleagues are cliff glacis producer, Easy Valdez, weeds vocs. Probably production and we'll be back.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.