Jane Coaston joins Dara, Ezra, and Matt to talk about the racial panic tearing America apart and also salt. References and further reading: Ezra's piece on the changing demographics in America Identity Crisis book mentioned by Ezra Salt white paper This episode is a rebroadcast from July of 2018.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeah. This is Marquez Brownie Acre and Cuba HD, and this is Andrew, Manga Nellie. We will introduce you to our podcast way, form the new sedition to the Vocs media podcast network, so I've spent over ten years reviewing tech products and consumer electronics for millions of people.
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Friday see over there hey votes. This is the holidays and, as you may know, people like to take some time off during the holidays said today for
We have an exciting everywhere, I would say we want is a classic weeds episode as about white, panic and ethnic change. It is fortunately it's a little bit of a depressing topic, but is a very evergreen topic. So it's something too to ponder to think about.
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hello. Welcome to another episode of the weeds and box medium outcast network Matthew places we ve gotta action, packed. I guess today but darlin as reclined Aunt Jane Coastline, and we are here to talk about what are we talking about us white threat in a binding?
so I ve been working on this piece for awhile and we're gonna put in shone out. It's a long time
I don't wanna take over these time up by summarizing the whole thing, but it's basically an argument about
why things are the way they are why we are having the fights for having why we had the brok, above all by Donald Trump. Why we're having this obsessive focus on political correctness, wars on campus
on and on and on and on the line and that the pieces, three parts which others go through very very
fast and then and then open this up, the first is it. America really is changing. We are at a pretty profound set of demographic tipping points and twenty thirteen that was the first year Quintus census. Beer
that a majority of infants under one were non white. We are now appoint according to a recent sincere related report
that there are more states where wipe
tying a her her out numbering white people being born in twenty thirty
warning to the senses, bureau immigration will overtake native versus the main driver of population growth in America. We are coming up on. A record number of foreign born residents were around fourteen percent. Now I'm dare prognosis better than I do, but in a couple years we're gonna go up to seventeen eighteen percent, which is higher than we ve never had before the last weekend in that was an eighteen
these. If I'm not wrong, we ve had a huge change in gender relations in this country, which has almost had the first female president. There is a lot going on the power structures in America, the demographic numbers in America. It's all changing new coalitions
rising and one thing that I think is particularly interesting about this. The demographer save it working
Majority Minority America by roughly twenty forty, two twenty forty three. But if you ask people now, they say we already have it so, to the extent that perception is a big part of it.
The perception is that we already have a majority minority America on at least from the perspective of race, spoke at the rest of the pieces. Doing two things. One is a huge amount of research.
Showing that when you expose people to a sense of demographic threat and this by we notches white people, those white people in Amerika who are experiencing this most completely right now, a bone expose people to a sense of demographic threat. They become, among other things, more group focused. They become more politically conservative, those cigarettes
I haven't done for riches and in their showing pretty significant swings. Treads republican party, I've. U tell white political independence who live near California, the California Majority Minority. Now they become eleven points, more likely to say they support the Republican Party. They also swing towards republican conservative policy positions both on racial and non racial matters.
The amazing we such right in us, where he does put spanish speakers on subways in Boston and just asked
De Ruyter ship before and after about politics, and they got a lot more conservative if they began to feel that there are more spanish speakers near them. So these things do changes. They change our politics and you begin to see politics like that have begun to see. This is one of the sort of macro forces operating on our political system right now, a lot of other things begin to make a lot more sense. You see Donald
by think, more clearly, you see some these political correctness rights more clearly. We also see the other side of a to abolish ice. The Democrats very very big, moved the left on immigration. The rise of Brok Obama, it's not just that wakes get through.
It's that as a non white coalition or partially non white coalition, I should say, becomes more powerful american politics. There are also able to make their grievances heard there also able to demand things. They want their also able to elect representatives who come out of their out of their communities, and so that creates a context in which there is a lot of collision between centres of a threat and senses of of rising hope. I start the peace by just going through. I think this
unbelievably perfect and for future historians very convenient difference between Obama and Trumpet Obama runs on this platform of hope and change.
Right, like the ideas it change, should fill you with hope and the doll chum comes out after MRS, like let's make Amerika great again, let's go back. You have this very perfect collision between these two forces and I think
These are gonna, be the foundation of a lot of our political conflict and in the coming decades, I think they're talking about Obama is particularly instructive here, because- and this is something that you get into the peace Azra
Hillary Clinton, with a lot more progressive explicitly on issues of race and policy in her two thousand and sixteen run. That Obama was especially in his first term and especially in his two thousand and eight run. This is a point
and of stealing from something that matters that on prior occasions, that the fact
Obama was himself non way, allow
for a certain expectation of some
port with non white democratic voters, whereas Clinton had to like me try to make that up with policy which, of course,
you can understand the dynamic in which moving too
left on issues of policy there racially inflected is gone
to move white voters to the right. However, as your pc,
bribes and islamic political scientists have been working through
the fact that our bhamo was in office as a black man was itself seen as something of, if not a racial provocation? It certainly made of race more salient to a lot of these same white voters, and
even though Obama himself often bent over backwards to occur
mandate, white fragility
around race. We can measure, counterfactual is but it's.
certainly did not work to assuage any of the people who actually felt that their whiteness was fragile and their power was fragile. So
This raises some serious questions for me and I think that you get into this in the kind of section of your piece. We talk about political correctness, but
one of the really hard not to crack in this is your described.
Your dynamic in which anything VIC.
and be done to make disenfranchise
people in America feel part of the conversation is going to make dominant people feel that they are excluded from the conversation, and that comes up again and again in the
he's the fact that not only as a middle ground not emerging on its own, but that any attempt to try to create a middle ground is going to create a backlash. That's going to me,
impossible to actually like talk about pluralism,
in a way that actually includes everyone, and I don't really know what to do with Ray, and I think it's interesting because I feel ass if I have long argued that a lot of
the fears that you see not from centrist republicans, but from kind of the farthest elements of the far right. Is this deep fear that white people would become
minority and thus be treated poorly, because that's how you treat minorities, which seems to be kind of a quiet so that you are arguing that minorities are treated poorly atomic. I see where you're going with this bit this tube
its concept that white people should not be a minority, and
Minorities should remain. Minorities is so fast
things makes its conceptualisation of America are very racial s, conception of America, that this is how it supposed to be and that, if
add more minorities it'll be further from what it should be, and no one can really explain to me and an adequate way why it should be a majority white country, but I think
It's interesting that you see
This kind of fearmongering in love concern
but of media, but also in the work that Ezra did pointing out that people believed that the country's fifty percent.
minority it is not
I have met many people growing up in Ohio who were convinced that,
even the state of Ohio and like two thousand three- was becoming a majority and minority state which it is not. It was not
and it's interesting this idea
how races conceived
It has very little to do with logical reason, but a lot based on people's feeling. So I've thought about this.
but like one thing is that I think that both, as was peace and especially like Darras like extra spin on the peace
or to having an unduly dark portrait of the Obama, ears and Obama's Rachel politics vital.
its relevant and important that Barack Obama, not only one but one. We election in Iowa in New Hampshire in me, in and in the second congressional district of men, like some of the widest places in America, he lost the white voters of all. Evil did particularly poorly with more religiously observant white people. Things like that, but he had
You know a poor level of support with northern secular working class white people that I think Democrats got complacent about and convince themselves that there was this like blue wall in the MID west. There was
Willie there right, but there is a margin their night. I think obviously, I've written like trumps racial politics. Obviously I think, had something to do with the midwestern turn and also Northern England turn against Democrats, but
It was a level of white support that held up against having an african american President held of nuts,
against like at a token african american president, but he appointed a record number of people of color to U S attorney jobs, a record number of people of color to federal, judge ships. You know so, like things were happening right, a strategic choice was made by Hillary Clinton not to beat Donald Trump, but to be Bernie Sanders right in the democratic, primarily
make the argument that the Democratic Party could not be primarily a political party about economic justice that this was his soup.
financially intention in a way that, like
No previous Democrat had ever argued with the goals of racial justice and gender equity right. If you-
go sort of like starting with L B J through to brag about the problematic in american politics was Democrats would say we are trying to help people of low economic means right, and the Democrats would complain that Republicans weird like racial lies in these debates, so, like most poor people are white. Food stamps mostly helps white people. Medicaid mostly helps white people, but the does help lots of back. I'm letting people to read, and so Democrats would say: oh Republicans are like cast
everything as being about race, which is bad, and we are pushing back and saying, like no White America like don't throw everything away. That could be good. Just like fuck over black and brown people read
Hillary Clinton came along as part of her primary strategy and like flipped that-
There was no. We need to make everything be about raise, spread
to me that's what backfire, much more than like Barack Obama being president, is what backfired and it's something that requires
I think more scrutiny like it's not like the most amazing fact about America. That like speaks incredible,
well about white voters and
white community is that what they really care about is white people, but, like it's the world that we live in
and it's not like an insurmountable obstacle to having meaningful political progress. The other thing I just because I haven't
to a dinner that Richard Albert hosted, it was like a symposium on this new issue of the annex.
The American Academy of political and social sciences- and it was specifically on this question of the Majority Minority America
can see this. But I've never seen thereof. Look as jealous as events and I went to a dinner Richard Alba hosted. I lay emphasis our aid to the people who invited me to that dinner because it was the week of the all star game that yeah at least we have one for a while so kissing ways,
important point here about like how this subsequently Richard Alba as professor
Oh God says the elevator sociology he's been spur involved on the lake latino Wakening hypothesis, correct, so unemployed.
question that he raises right is so Ezra your father's from Brazil. My grandfather's from Cuba.
According to the senses definition the theory that we're gonna have majority minority America by twenty forty two. This is
majority minority podcast here that has three people of cholera and then white debt
that defies common sense, Larry
One could say accurately that this, whom contain
two people of partially latin american ancestry ride like that is true
fact in his defiling true that in the future, America will have many more people of partially Latin American, our asian ancestry, theirs.
Some sense in which that means it's gonna, be a majority minority country, but, like I dont think that it is true in the relevant.
said. Certainly it doesn't mean what you might think me still.
And I think like that, the media has created-
the level of hysteria around this subject. That, like is just not warranted salami. Let me pull to
this year apart, because I think, there's a lot here too, to talk through so what
is a question of of the Obama presence in how to read that and then it just before we go into that. I want to say something on the majority minority question, so a lot
demographers I spoke to completely agree with you on that we were talking earlier about whites, become minority, something there very quick to say. Whites do now
become a minority, we become a plurality, they become plurality
for the foreseeable future there by far the biggest group. They are not a minority group and in addition, when people talk about Majority Minority America, one thing happening there is Mount points out. Is it mixed race, which is the group projected growth the fastest projected to, if
I'm triple in size and ninety percent of mixed race people have one white parent is right. Import
to understand on necessary. Avonlea growth is being counted as non white here. Would you say it is just its own category right the way it is not that it's not white issues, its mixed race, that's what it's called theirs
very interesting debate among demographers about this right now, which is that
Are you going to see the patterns you saw before or are
going to see in America that is much more diverse and has very different ideologies and ideas around diversity, different patterns, and you saw before more identification that there's some evidence on both sides.
That? I have absolutely no way to adjudicate this debate. I don't know: what's gonna happen in twenty years that
Why, in the peace, I put a fair amount of weight on the idea that what people perceive as happening is actually the important thing here,
that I think, is a good bridge, your back to what you were saying, mad about Obama, so yeah
Obama had very strongly support sort of
in twenty twelve Obama want a smaller percentage of the white vote that Michael Dukakis did in eighteen. Eighty, eight by
even doing that, he could win an extremely convincing electoral victory. Similarly, D
tromp dimming, even when a majority of any vote here
one significant minority of the boat, and if you can
look at the demographics if he does one the exact same share of every group in twenty twenty, if now
think changes because he's alive
victory a current. What I've read is so close
he will lose anyway right if doesn't,
nothing in his electoral coalition changed enough people
Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc would try die,
say age out of behind that either,
change. Your he actually needs to build on this support. One thing over:
as people interpret the beast, and this is certainly on me ass, a writer is they take it? I tried to sit
final paragraph of the peace says
to say there'll, be friction is not to say we will be dissolution, wanna things I did and running this, I'm a California in California.
the majority minority state already much more so than America's projected to be for some time. It is
not completely and cohesive? It's heart, like a mad MAC style war of all against all it's fun?
I wanted to live. To be honest, I want to talk you bunch of politicians are but two things I think are notable, but the California
It's one has been a certain amount of of white flight. I was talking Aircars Seti in LOS Angeles fur, from Ipod Casta among
the things and you know we were talking about
how in a way which is extremely majority minority, you have had a huge number of whites leave. Los Angeles
why they did that. I can say for sure, but it implies to me that there might be
different dynamics for states and for the country where people are less likely to leave the country. But the other thing is that it went through also hard periods right. We had that the peat will
send prop one hundred and eighty seven affirmative action Supreme court cases. There was a period of real friction before the politics became such that you couldn't be a state level politician in California and not be trying to
to diverse electorate so what they say that I dont see. I soon
The Obama presidency some kind of failed experiment here the thing I am trying to point
out is not that we are in for disaster. I continue to be on the on the team of like America's past is much worse in its future, even given the Donald Trump experience, but I do think that it is going to be a continuous demur
sure of our politics and a one place right, disagree with some of the optimistic take is like, let's say in the next ten years, you have enough change in the electorate.
It becomes a reasonably stable alleys, national majority for peace,
politicians who speak of diversity as something that they like look, let's put it that way. You can imagine Republicans doing that too.
A world in which you have a white electorate. A sort of revenge is thirty percent of the electorate. That is really upset
but think of having now lost power totally because the
I'm a coalition which was
nearly able to run american politics in nineteen. Eighty eight but becomes dominant by two thousand and twenty for two thousand and thirty or whatever you wherever you. My put the thing, that's gonna
a lot of friction associated with it, and the points out in America can handle the friction, but it is
To that end, up being a constant- and, I think, quite powerful part of our politics, that people should sort of understand its roots. The fact that one group can hold power sustainably
does not mean that the holding about power will not create backlashes and reverberations and ripples that are going.
partly in individual states to simple things happening. I will say the final figure. The dark version of this is that the way that the commission tries to hold on to power,
what you seem a little bit in places like North Carolina is by becoming are flatly anti democratic, and I dont mean big Dm Small de here
Got a lot of things like water, Idee laws, you
gun to see a lot of things happening republican Party that they're about making it harder to vote in ways. It clearly are meant to decide
an edge on non white voters, and you could have a lot of vat as I could trust a whole power. Ok, let's, let's take a quick break now.
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areas of keeping us from being like snowballing like round table. But
I guess I didn't want to drill down on like one of the many threads tat we ve been talking about judges, what Matt brought up as whether mix Ray
people identify as whiter nigh, which has into what you were saying about PETE Wilson, which is, I think, it's really important to understand here, that identity is both
weekly contingent and socially constructed right, that it does not persist between generations and that its affected, how people identify and which identities they think of as collectively salient are effect
did by what politicians do what media does other factors in public life.
This is something that, as for your piece brings into play when talking to actually Georgiana who says you why
I didn't. They may be politically salient if its activated, but it's not always going to be that way by. While you do
talk about salient see a bunch of peace. I think that the question of what identities
or even accident, for people to choose from its a question that
Magua furs have a lot of questions about, but it's also something that we do have historic,
information on re enter. You mention in passing. The Irish and the kind of
Eric assimilation into witness in the nineteenth century, but there's a very
live debate among historians right now about how that happened. Right to what extent was it irish
both choosing to it
if I themselves as why, in particular, because of anti
lack racism and, to what extent was it the white
primitive less against irish people. Those two things are obviously going to be mutually constitute, but its very very hard to kind of mood
things directly in the direction of trying to assimilate people when you,
interest in discrimination. I think that Cuba,
organs are actually really good example, here of like a group that was considered wider sixty years ago, air of Americans,
hindered whiter sixty years ago than they are now, because discrimination has
power to create
new identities and to make them salient. It's really hard to
to a place of well as law.
keep assimilating into the majority. Then we're not going to have this we're a kind of apartheid regime right, and this is not a particularly new conversation- the arguments about race, mixing and x rays. People look up the history
of passing and people who have been able to do so effectively, basically by
Looking, quoting quote white I've had road
It's on the blacks out of my family, for whom that that was an extremely important part of their lives and how they were able to be successful is by appearing to be white. What
means is a larger conversation but
I also think that there will be groups that cannot assimilate into whiteness, and this idea, I think when we talk about majority minority, your ethic Matt makes a really good point talk
about how our first some groups it will just be that we just start thinking of them as being quoting quote white, but I think
that we also need to be careful, and I think someone product a good point on Twitter that the african American expiring.
it will always be an inherently separate historical,
political experience than that of non white.
but who have made up this great country, and I think that it's important to notice that when we talk about people assimilating into whiteness, we are talking about the people who have the political and social capacity to do so. I do not
I will never have that capacity, life,
Other will never have that capacity. That is not something that we can. Do
There are a lot of groups that can, and I think that that in and of itself is worthy of consideration of who gets to be included within this.
socio political club so to speak,
The question here is: is widening
and non whiteness, the central distinction in America or his blackness and non blackness, the central distinction in America DORA. I would read this book up up up up, which has done well, don't trump, because he he lurks. In the background of this discussion, I think that a striking a thing about Donald Trump to me is that he is such a poor steward of the interests of the community is that he claims to
president and at a descriptive representational, set swayed- and that seems-
when hand it's so typical for an american Republican Party president to be incredibly committed to a sort of regressive tax cutting agenda that it like hardly seems noteworthy, that all of download from Sicuramente policy.
Are terrible for working class people while races, but another level like it, really is remarkable that event
think about. You went when I was a kid lived in New York and Rudy Giuliani was the mayor and he was a
sort of trumpets figure in his politics theirs.
reason that they are closely aligned Papa. But if you look at like outcomes in New York City for white people, when Britain Giuliani was
I think you would say like it was going pretty well right, like the price
miss every few Julie unease: America was it, he was gonna, get tough crime was gonna fall there weren't in Greece. We demand that the tunnel and, like all of that happen,
bright and, like you could reasonably. I should like to Julia.
deserve credit for all of those things happening was the price in terms
of the brutalization of Amity, Dielo and and others worth it right, but like they were happening right and
like, if you were a white New York who didn't really care about police brutality against like an immigrant communities and really did want crime to fall and really wanted economic development and city like he was doing that stuff for
as ugly as it can get there is something like healthy insane about like community representation, politics, in which you say, I'm going to stand for the interests of this group of people, and then you deliver on that
and then there is this, like Donald Trump beaten switch where like break
news last night was maybe
Treasury department would just pretend that they have the legal authority to enact a hundred billion dollar capital gains tax cut by asserting that the rates should be indexed to inflation and
that's while that's what trump is about? That's what the republican parties about it. That's to me a crucial aspect of like how unhinged has America Become is at the political conflict is happening so heavily along these cultural lines, but the actual policy making conflict it implicates that stuff right, like the Justice Department, is rolling back.
and agrees with police departments and changing its affirmative action guidelines. But, like a lot, the vast majority of Trump era policy making is just about
in which people might disagree with vast majority, because hashtag accept immigration by living merge. The points of view are making here, though, because I think this is useful. So there is a question here about what is the future of four odyssey lack of a better term. The identifies white brand
and there was a question of how is Donald Trump delivering for his constituency, some part of which wants to make sure that America continues to feel in its power structure. The way it has felt in recent decades are in and sort of modern memory, and one thing that I also think Belgium's doing about job.
Just he's bad for the brand like if you hurry young person like asking like which sudden
Nor do I want to be on, like you just look.
The policeman young people like you, dont want to be on trumped side and so to the extent that the interests of white man
a car again. There are lots of white people new democratic sites- you don't wanna you'd want to talk about. This is a monolithic coalition, but to the intended Ike.
The interests of us have a refund white coalition or a traditional. Why coalition have a lie,
and and stack than merged into the Republican party. Donald Trump is really
but like day by day minute by minute, tarnishing that brand, you could amount
in a way politician who spoke in a much more inclusive way,
so is creating a pathway to republican party. There continue to be able to uphold law. There are public and parties ideas in a very diverse
right there and their people were trying to do something like that: immediate Bush, job charger bid, but
they actually think job, which is a good example. Someone is trying to do something like that and Donald
really is it Donald Trump is running. A very defensive should have
Your guard. You know that the ideas I will build a wall and keep people out and the ideas that you know will prosecute voter fraud, because
like that. The winds were never real anyway. Brok Obama baby was born here at all right. It's like it's on
China roll back, what's happening on a technicality and that's a complicated play to run. I also think that the thing that is worth always noting about Donald Trump is it he's just authentic
Thus- and this site I always feel really important about him, and I think it's having the media, which tends to assume pollen
Patients have a certain amount of double talk under plays, but he just feels this way. He here,
this is a very constant part of his rhetoric. It's a thing. He it's a thing. He believes it comes out in all
strange ways, and so I wanted
as looking at this peace was the the economic anxiety, buses, racial resentment debate, and got a look at this forthcoming data from the great book identity crisis by John sidelined by African and Michael test.
on the twenty sixteen election. But that really shows, I think, pretty conclusively that followed. It was
that economic anxiety activated racial resemblance racism and activated economic anxiety, the more racially resentful you were, the worse, you believe the economy is doing under Obama, and now
Furthermore, racially resentful, you are the more economically optimistic. You are the idea that how you feel about the
economy is an objective measure of your circumstances is not at all how people deal with economy.
I was seeking to the piece it if a lot of economic excise upper Right, Donald
believes economy as great he thought was terrible and twenty. Sixteen one is mostly like it is now, and he thinks it's great now, when it's mostly like it wasn't. Twenty. Sixteen fine
that is our changed his view on immigration at all? It is a change level of anger. He has turned NFL players at kneeling to protest police brutality at all. It's not changed anything about his or his coalitions, politics, which is to say
that the anxieties and fears and and frustrations that are brought by rapidly diversifying country are not obviously to me going to be easy by better call me a better commies good, because a better economy is good, but it's not going to solve this problem right, and I think that that something Matt you talked about.
the class argument that was happening during the democratic primaries, and I'd like to note that Europe
class and race have been intertwined in this country for centuries, and a better economy or high union membership or low unemployment has done markedly. Little too can have impact that
conversations. You know when you look at the numbers of when the most Americans were members of unions or had
close to full employment. Those numbers come at times of the very depths of the civil rights movement around the
the murder of Emmett till like that. The two can work together. You can have a full time job and be racist. You know
internet, something you can do in your spare time also, but I think
it's interesting. You brought up about Trump representing this
rear guard of conservatism. I think that that something alot of conservatives are noticing because order. Conservatives and younger conservatives have very different views of trump, and you know
there is very much of older conservative saying like well, it's either him or the metaphor:
Michael Highway, whereas younger conservatives early you're, looking at this person and their seeing very much the same person. We are the same purpose.
attended. He didn't know who David Duke was and made their statements about Charlottesville young conservatives to their credit. They are not stupid and they can see, and they could hear- and so I say,
at its very interesting, because I feel as if that defensiveness
still I have argued that Trump ISM is not a real thing, and I think it's largely based on that. It's not a forward moving concept. Trump ISM accept, I think you can make the argument
that may be trade is something that there's a guy forward moving agenda, but other than that, its purely defensive, its purely anti, this or anti something else and yo. You start seeing white nationalists arguing like diversity is code for anti white. This idea that, like well, if you're, propping up these people, that must mean that you're going against me and people like me, and I think that that's an important point to note
it's a very backwards, moving
coalition- and I think a lot of people are starting to notice that, especially because the people for whom
It was pitched
the heaviest and who responded in twice. Sixteen are the same p
to whom we see with the tariffs issue the same people to whom this coalition has.
Given really nothing, I mean the game.
isn't to win a majority of support among Americans, though they
The aim is to win enough: how seats enough Senate
seeds and the electoral College, which is to say its to win among voters, and this is where both the kind of explicit attempts to engineer the electorate with things like state voter, idealize, Andrews kind of voting patterns are relevant riley. We know that older people are more likely to turn out to vote activating
they're kind of sends the Americas change demographically from where it was when they were young, is going to move more votes than trying to activate in a young voters will on the margin, and I dont think that this
appreciated nuffin. Maybe it's wrong, I'm and I'm just speculating bet,
cause young voters are less likely to see themselves as politically engaged, because their political engagement tends to be more kind of
digital, our short term. It
very easy for them to see themselves as outside of politics in a lot of the cases. If politics is seen as this ugly culture war its possible for a while
person to say. Well, both sides are doing this really ugly, polarizing stuff. I don't really want to be part of that. I would like to opt out. No one is really speaking to me. That is not something that people of color can say, because their identities are the ones being implicated here, but it's possible for
conflict, originally conflict, diverse white person, to say well, if Paul
it is becoming about identity than what I dont want to do is get involved in politics, and that I think, is kind of an under,
radiated problem in reacting to Trump.
this is a way in which I think would be useful, actually get off of Trump and talk a little bit about some of the downstream stuff witches in. I took a lot in the piece about the political correctness, debates and also the identity politics debates. The thing is that Obama Trump are both indifferent way symptoms. The point I'm really trying to make in the pieces at a huge amount of what is going on in our are political sphere in our political conflicts are,
our downstream from these changes- but so it's not just them it's the celebration, which a lot of concern is found very frustrating over black panther. It is press one first,
danish when you would call a phone tree line. It is
screw so white and getting lectured by Chris Rock when he's hosting it about institutional racism, its rose and bar.
first, the show being successful and then getting fired. It happened
on all sides, and it is also very sensitive to terrorist point that politics,
an american life to some Greece becoming identity, politics,
when you are in the majority and you control the agenda, your politics just become politics. Its coded is what politics is really about. The fact that
the entire agendas real responsive to your particular rustic in some cases concerns duchesse politics and then it
that control weakens and a lot of groups being contesting it. That's identity, politics, other group,
Who you see, I do see themselves to some degrees, is having as having an identity that is related to their their political concerns, are now fighting for it to get their grievances heard to be heard. To be
I now people saying that about you,
that's how you ever seen yourself an increase,
this very, very strange thing: identity Paul
This is a way of dismissing other people's politics, just like always in forever and the people who get
lab at around like that is a political high ground. If I can
Your thing is: identity, politics, but minus tax policy and like yes
ex policies related to identity like it implicated, in the same way that we are talking about welfare and other things before all these different things have disparate.
And impacts on different groups, but we don't see them that way, and just a big piece of this, I think is
can it be about these actually non political space or spaces we'd, always think of his political? I think the cultural space here is actually much more important that we give credit for mats point is very well taken that a huge amount of policy making in the Trump era is actually about economics, for chump is not representing the group he claims to speak for, but this is something I think is very present in Jaynes work. One thing that Donald Trump is excellent
is monetizing and weapon icing the culture war. He seems himself much more interested in that kind of thing tweets about it more. He may actually personal care about tat.
also, I don't really know, but he seems very
very, very connected to things that are going on in
like I remember how excited he got when my pants got boot, and then talk to at Hamilton does like the best
Donald Trump SOAP residency. So it's not just politics and politics is going to be responsive to it, and it's going to reflect it.
But it's not gonna be a space. It is separate from it. I think that's a very important piece of it because I think if you narrow things just you know, it
democratic pro diversity, winds and twenty twenty them. This is gonna like that's not how this is. Gonna go
the reason that it is true
does it supper. Conversation about that the white fragility inherent in that you cannot save, say things like majority minority or seeing people
he s getting save the idea of the emerging democratic majority,
more damages country than any other, but I was alive in the Bush administration. I remember the books being written about the emerging permanent republican majority and nobody said like you're not allowed to say that, because it'll make non white people feel bad guys are gonna, lose political power forever. There's an interesting dimension to it.
But even so even
You did have more careful talk from demographers and political scientists and into some degree politicians the places
this conversation is being experienced its in the culture its in cultural flashpoints ago, viral
social media. It's on cable news in one hand,
in limbo, saying Tiger,
forget, like us, how Cocker for us too, to be sure this
coffee is elsewhere and on the left to by the way I mean that there is a triumphal isn't that comes into it. This is
I'm trying to say the pieces it it's not it's any one thing it's like the background. Contacts of what is going.
It's like in this way. I compared to inequality and polarization, it's part of
is creating everything, and I think it is so important that you
that point Ezra that like what we do is identity politics, the Bull Moose party was identity politics you know like for MRS Ferreira about a year ago, Calvin Colleges election was identity, politics and a lot of ways. I could make that argument and I think it's important to recognise that
just because it's your identity. Does it mean it's not identity, politics and I think when trot brings up the elephant,
and recognises that this will be a salient point for his supporters. I think it's important to note that, like I'm working on a piece
about the NFL, anthem, debate and I've written on college football and the NFL before, and I think that such an important note that, like these conversations, have been had before and
the obvious background tenor.
of sports and culture and how it has to do with race
Interesting as our. I apologise to you when you were talking about Oscar, so what I think I gave you a face to just be like I. Yes, that was
very very hard on, our dear beloved white people, they hear that maybe sometimes Oscar should go to non white people. What a tragedy in the opposite way like that. We let me stand up here, though, because I think there's a
a melting together, different sweat, like
One is society and people say things right and, like I think, a great thing to say. If you work in the film industry, you care about movies, you care about diversity,
the patient is ask as you're. So why did we more academy awards for people of color? That's fantastic like go for it. I agree my father's, an academy member. He agrees who votes in accordance with that? Another thing is electoral part swayed in which, like their choices and like, I dont think that Donald is more in
stood in the culture more than he is and is economic agenda, because if what he really cared about was the cultural war, he would moderate has economic agenda and trash Democrats at the polls, but like he, I think like cynically deploys this stuff to do what he wants. We just like he and his billion our friends can rip every.
Howdy off. While we fight about the fucking Oscar, I don't like you get a little too much credit rating, like any choice that the Democrats need to make all the time is like
saying in politics rate, as you sing like, because everything is identity, politics and some level, so you are creating an identity for your own political movement. Try and like do Democrats want to say this is a political movement that is, for people who are fired up about Rachel Diversity and ask her nominations. Or is this a political party for like everybody who wants good health,
good schools, Bob Bob Bob Obama, and that is like a daily choice and is a choice in which, like all politicians, have
where his said, option number two and then like Hillary Clinton to win a primary campaign like went with option
and then it didn't work. Lured by the now I know bite at all. I think that the assumption you're making is that people are forming their opinions on economic issues based on
economic interests and that those are either in concordance or conflict with their preferences on cultural issues. One of the thing
that, as was peace, shows that I think we ve seen
in various white papers that we have already talked about on the weeds is one of the effects of active,
eating white identity among white people is that they have less rose. I didn't realize you don't think something like what you're doing politics. Rightly your on both sides. Trump is like what we should do is all vote along racial lines right and then, if you're, on the other side, you got account embargo,
if everybody roads along racial lines, we are going to lose so now like what is my
in its strategy. No one hypothesis way in which you know DORA personally has has latin.
for he is having can use gender identity right
If you go into like woke, social media precincts
right like that is the implicit theory right is that's why
men way- I'm able of color are going to form a majority and beat white men so, like maybe
You know better than you you have to do that. Work when I frequently see happen, is this kind of like assertion that, like the white man
are ruining everything a fairly small numerical minority and then people
look around at the vote, told us and like ha, what have
with the way women and, like I don't know, man like what did happen right, but it's like if you are engaged in the political arena and you are trying to help people and effective way change. You need like a programme of action plan with some kind of reasonable prospects of success, and I think that just like rationalized
peaches is not a great. I just want to pull back into the realm of things were contesting this idea that Donald Trump Economic,
policy is a disappointment to many trump voters late. I think that if you pulled them,
a vacuum and said what is your ideal state? They would probably not say hundred billion dollar tax cuts for the rich, but but
In the kind of master, narrative of redistribution helps people who are not you and the fact that people don't
in equal weight on every single issue. That's important to them. There are particular issues that are more likely to change their political behaviour than others. I
sure that we're looking at a situation where, if
will only knew that Donald Trump was governing as a plutocrat. They would
change their opinions of what his regime is doing so yoke a couple. A couple thinks you're, so one I dont disagree with the point you make him a politicians may control.
I do a little bit disagree with the framing of the Clinton campaign, which I think tilted more torrents outside, but but it's never a or be a toy
a and b and like it's always worth noting that Helen Clinton's vote, total and vote composition was so close to Brok Obama's
Much is Donald Trump was so close to Mitt Romney it. If you didn't know something big had happened, you just wouldn't know something big had happened. I mean she was off by like what is it to percentage points out of his pocket?
I told him I'd like I really like you. I understand where women lose. My worry is that it was not as sharpest swing is, I think you're making it here. Stronger together was not well hick. Organ
You know I mean she was very big on folk suffering from the opiate crisis and by the way, very a lot of my
I work in this comes from somebody spectacular has done that Michael passer. You see I've about both the Obama presidency and then
New book identity crisis about twenty sixteen and something he makes a point of by the way is there used
be this idea- and it was true in a way that heralds Clinton had this great connection to the white Working class when she was run against Barack Obama. Hillary Clinton
was different after she served in the Obama White House and was sort of a representative of that White House running and twenty sixteen, and so things
changed, but the idea that then
had gone from being heavily favoured among racially resentful, whites too heavily disfavour among them. I think the change there was not
what she said. I think the change there was what she represented and it created constraints on on what was actually possible to do,
But the big point I want to make here is that this all goes to the actual core of it, which is
These coalitions in the way they are changing, they themselves changed the decisions politicians can make our country
Wade's changing each and by the way, also where communication mediums for changing that some did not get into here. In the way I wish I had was both cable news and sort of Twitter Facebook where these are hyper,
petted media atmospheres, you need things, are you're gonna pull people in and the thing that actually pulse lotta people and is something that activates one other stronger identities, and so you
Have a lot of this discussion, and and and these kinds of issues are winning
in a lot of the public debate, where were they when it before, but so
have coalitions in our can push ideas onto the agenda. You have parties, the Republican Party needs to act
Sean trendy, it put it that the missing white boat or Donald Trump came up with a way to do that. The democratic party needs to activate the Obama coalition. No one
do it is to have Obama run for office, but if you're not going
that you need to do something you need to find a way to turn those voters out any other different choices.
can make on the margins, but the structure of that
and this goes to my point about this shaping lot of politics to come. Is it you're going to have a democratic party? This going to emphasise more issues of
we shall equity and for that matter, gender equity and just equality in general and you're, going to have a republican party that is gonna have to be more responsive to the concerns of these white voters.
Now, maybe that will last for that long because it will be the equilibrium, is gonna, tell towards Democrats due to demographic change or whatever or maybe not depends on what happens to white voters. White voters guitar
putting in higher percentages for Republicans, that's an application, LISA, some, the researchers amusing here. So I think these things they could go a lot of different way.
But the structure, while it is a choice that
politicians, media figures. They respond to the market that is actually out there to wear. The voters are too where strong opinions are. I think, if you asked
every single Democrat serving today, should we talk about abolish ice at all?
in this election, every elected official democratic you know, and yet they are
and they are because the nature of their coalition, the nature of the media atmosphere, the nature of what they could ask and where the energy is, is pushing them to do that and there's a certain amount of politics at his choice. But there is a certain amount of politics of a structure much as our cultural structure. Much as what's happening at campus has struck,
about who has voice and as a changes and as we don't have assembled equilibrium, you're going to have different decisions made on that, then we have had made in the past. I ask
I think it's very useful and I think I'm glad we could have backed away from talking about Trump, because I feel as if, while Trump is an important point of discussion in this conversation
He actually is a terrible representative for this
you see in that candidates who have attempted to take on Trump, as as their mantle, are terrible and have done badly,
especially it's interesting. You it's funny to me that people seem to you the here.
The dog whistle and decide to just make it into text. You see that with Korea Stuart, you see it with Paul NAIL and you see it with candidates across the country.
Who basically like what this is? What trump as a means to me, which is white nationalism but they're doing
very badly, and I think that, as you put, it
Israel had Hilary one. This conversation still goes on. What had we had it?
entirely separate political space and twenty this conference
can still goes on this. Conversely,
you still got me out was going on when I was a little kid and had to check other as my racial identity, because it was black white or other
this conversation is ongoing and it's it's interesting to see that people believe some people believe that this is. This is relatively new for now
not you know what we were having conversations about, what the person of the future would look like on the cover of time magazine and who was presented with a light skinned by racial person. You're, these conversations have been ongoing and we'll be ongoing and how structures respond to them will be really interesting, especially with the growth of mixed race, people and kind of this,
renewed understanding of identity. I think that white idea,
They waxes and wins, and its importance in the people, people's understandings of it. You know we ve had moments, you see in nineteen fifteen with the book. The passing of the
Ray, says very focused ideology of, like there's: Nordic
people and then there is everybody else and everybody else needs to get to gettin. But every
many thirty years you can have this renewed vision of what white identity means, but, interestingly, that white identity becomes just gradually sightly. Bigger
becomes like ok, poles or white. Ok,
Italians are white, ok is
Latin Americans are white and it's interesting to see those conversations, but I think it's important just keep this in a context that is not inherently rooted in this presidency.
I think, it's time for for a quick break in and we'll be back people
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hence the mob on Apple podcast, Spotify or your favorite podcast app, hey, are you hungry, for I had taken her weight is favoured
I like doing johnson- and I personally think he is the greatest action star of his time or a wild and will take on a cold classic, because any accuracy was so good. A ruined all
future political comedy or take so fanatical, it blows your mind all the way to the next stratosphere, Vendee sauce character. Dominic tarento is a king angel man, then check out Galaxy brains, Punkahs we're movies tv and over thinking collide post
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One last thing that we should probably talk about I'm but Azra as a social theory undergrad in the past life structure,
an agency aren't opposing things. There are things that constitute through each other right lake. The reason that structural matters is that it constrains the choices we make in the choices we make then constrained.
your choices down the road and the fact that that's a feedback loop
sadly, why we're talking about this simultaneously, as you know,
however, we feel about the optimism pessimism of the long,
situation varies. A short term set of dynamics that we can reasonably predict is going to continue to find american life for some time in the future
and all of us be extremely open that we have no idea how,
he's going to shake out ten twenty thirty fifty
for two years down the road, because ultimately-
this is going to come down to how human beings are treating each other in public life, and that's not just politicians. That's not.
the media. A lot of that is how
Americans deal with difference when they encounter it dated one of the responses. I saw this and try to think through how to react to this. Even as I say it was a very plaintive, I think very sincere, but why do we
have to think about it like this any came and sort of angry versions like like. I wish there was nobody like us, her kindness, hottam everything like identity right like this is the sort of you know like you are the prime
plumb, because if we just never mentioned identity, it wouldn't be there. If we just thought in this kind of at enough, you can, you can choose. How did
private, but that there is a lot of folk simply by the they don't have it or they ve transcended it. You know and then their folks who just look at this and they said,
you know some of this may be true, but in I really wish that warrant, and I wish it
bored stop saying it is. I wish Unpeopled stop reinforcing that. It is and the thing that I do wish we
doing this. Conversation that that I try to think about myself in. It is the fact that these are part of our politics. That identity is part of our politics, not just racial, but religious.
rendered class and a million more than that the people will think of geographic. What region of the country you live in there all kinds of identities, you're holding in you at all times,
and you just know that they, like you, know all kinds of cognitive biases, like all kinds of life circumstances. Artist affecting us is not to say that politics is only about identity, their african american Trump voters. There are plenty of white democratic voters
and it's not to say that demography is in some dogmatic, straightforward way, destiny. It's just to say that that we should be mindful about the political situation we are actually in, so we can think about how to manage it up a point both Deborah Ann and might have been making is that there are choices. Politicians and leaders can make their choices. Media organisations can make their ways we can talk about. This, of course, is not talk about it. There is a lot,
here, but it will be managed better if we know what it is we are actually going through and we are able to see the sort of roots of the fights were having and that in the feelings were having, as its politics is an emotional spaces well, rather than if we just
or it and try to wish it away. Wishing it away doesn't make it go away, it makes it express itself in very strange ways, and it makes it very hard to see what is happening and so hard to come up with any solutions or
ways to ease it. So I as much as I understand it, the reaction like I can't we just give up this. Can we just be Americans
For that, too, we are a lot of things and it is not. It is
A rational or rational list way of engaging the world to ignore the things we are
it's a go, the right way to do this, a to understand them to think about the effects they have on us in each other and then to try to work from there and in a in a compassionate and thoughtful and reflective way.
Cigarettes. Salt I knew
get hijacked by this paper, and I swore that I would study how to pronounce everyone's last names. But then I did not
but this is when it rains it pours the long run economic impacts of salt idealisation in the United States by a tutor
I'd. Varro Stephen bed, nor are not enough
Adam Teresa Molina and couldn't when and that it is up it's a blockbuster
I'm so they re looking at the introduction of iodized salt by the Morton SALT Company, which rolled out very rapidly from nineteen twenty four to nineteen, twenty nine
is it buddy man? Why did it roll out so rapidly and count was? Who is a brand new invention and public health commissioners? I think, specifically in Michigan had the idea that they should like make somebody do it and
he had to decide. Should we comply for just one state, or should we just put in all our Sol got it so they did
before I saw how much I'm people had their diet had a lot to do with the item in the local soil. There's a huge amount of natural variations, you're able to study the impact on and different regions and they phone impacts that are like really really big. I think that the headline result here is that income increase by eleven,
percent as a result of I'd I saw being introduced, I'm some of that is that we just went out for both men and
women and then the other part is that women's ability to have a job at all increased very dramatically and then previous
daddy's, which I had not known about, but which they mention here where they look at armed forces qualifying test scores for four drafty is show that, for men at least there were huge cognitive gains
one would assume that the same Cotonou gains are present for women. They were not conscripted, so we don't. We don't really really know this
you don't some some interesting sort of like smaller micro findings in here, but to me it
just like one of a number of things that I have read over the years that, like a really drives home, how effective certain kinds of policy interventions that, like work directly
human biology, I guess, for lack of a better word can be like this is really transformative impact and,
take it for granted and in the U S, but there's like billions of people in the world who don't have that salt
we do take. I myself for granted me you ass. I know that when we are discussing this paper like oh yeah, we should recommend it.
Spend a lot of time talking about like racing difference in America. We should take a hard pivot and talk about iodine, and then I was reading the paper and all I could think about was Flint because
if what we're learning here is that
the kind of micro nutrients and net
fetal and young child development
a massive massive impact down the road on life outcomes that
to remind us that
things that we take for granted as natural, because we are seeing them persistently in terms of life outcomes, maybe biological without being in eight right it for good,
ample children who are still growing up in lead poison community eyes. May
have shortcomings that are going to look decades from now as if there's a natural problem with them, and I think that
It is just as urge people's fancy salt lake. I do think it's easy to kind of oversee the effective domestic impact
inequality pursues global inequality. If that's one is well taken, like you can
assume innovation for a lot of the world, but if we
with such small left like this have such a big impact. Then the idea
that we're talking about anything other than how do we make sure that, like
Children are not being poisoned in small doses and instead have all the maker nutrients. We need seems kind of silly whose a great piece Matt wrote the other day about
is about the third ways: sort of counter to Bernie Sanders like what like what a moderate democratic agenda should look like and Matt so unexpectedly, but but the beast ended up talking a lot about the equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome debate, and this is very popular way of framing of
politics would like, whatever the other people wanted to put it on the left. They want equality of outcome in Amerika. We do quality of opportunity. I think things like this show that none of the political coalitions they talk so much about equality of opportunity which that Republicans do constantly money.
Democrats to all the time, a coalition that really cared about equality of opportunity. Like the first.
It would do, is a massive massive nationwide, like let abatement programme a great. Oh, like that, that is opportunity, opportunity is not growing up with the cognitive and behavioral shortcomings come from lead on equality of opportunity
is making sure that you have all micro nutrients. We need there are tons and tons and tons of things like this. We actually know quite a bit about what it means for power for a child to have a healthy environment. Growing up equality of opportunity makes your children to the extent we can make sure of it. Dont have tons of traumatic experiences in a highly.
Background stress constantly in their homes that doesn't go away when they leave that shapes how they develop. It shapes how they control themselves. It shapes with their stress and anxiety. Responses are later in life
I'll leave. Opportunity is a if you really want to make a call
opportunity. It actually ends up being not just an incredibly hard but a massive massive passive intervention on medicine.
Billy impossible right. I mean what you could do more at a certain point: equality
potato means that lake organizations that offer Euro Court appointed special advocates for children who are suffering from abuse in the glass,
the get massive funding are we really expand child protective services? We get it
falls in the individual lives of Americans to an extent that many Americans would not like that.
itself becomes a fascinating debate, because we do you draw the line in terms of how the decisions made or not made only you're talking about lead in homes, with thinking about Baltimore and Freddy Gray. Therewith.
Some really interesting research about some of the older homes in the area of Baltimore refreshing grey list.
as a child and talking about the
pack, the lad had on him and you start to see the ripple effects of
these small moments that change can change an entire city and the cities trajectory, and you think Europe
Would it be worth it to intervene so much in one family is life. If what happened didn't happen and it
That in itself becomes a fascinating discussions have and for the record now a true equality,
opportunity agenda, would involve not disrupt
the growth of like a couple of generations at this point of
for an american children by having a lot of them have fathers
suffered in incarceration at some point, nor in and out of their lives and not having currently a generation of? U S? Citizen? U S born children who are living with the very rational fear that their parents and the get taken from them at every anytime. I wondered how more about salt? No! No because, like one,
thing about these, like big political views
three slogans isn't like they are really hard right, but a thing it is
come on? There's not a bad air, since the global financial crisis is like bloodless technocrats
and something that you are seeing here is that there were psych extreme benefits of like capital, p, progressive movement, heyday like fiddling around with things like the experts were like we should put iodine insult, and then they did and then we're just like Hugh.
Benefits and to day like there are many. Many people who live in countries where I rising sought is not a routine thing right and there are all kinds of international meat
things there's lots of money spent and, like obviously, nothing is going to be done. That, like equalising opportunities faced by like peasants in Zambia and middle class people in the United
it's like, maybe someday but like that's, are on the agenda, but like a thing that really could be done instead of like having like baby formula lobbyists. Fight at World Health Organization meetings is like get it together to fortify staple food in developing countries with the basic micro nutrients that people need, like the cost, benefit analysis,
is extraordinarily high and, like we don't really know like how far exactly it will push us or what kinds of second and third order problems can be effectively resolve by people having like better basic nutrition, but like it will be good for them will probably make other problems easier to do.
With, unlike is worth doing like. But politics is about conflict in disagreement on some fundamental level, but like there are also things that, like are so good as uses of resources that, like it, is really worth our while to try to like partnership.
other and make it happen, and the related idea that is, it would be. I think I've actually like
for this before the weeds. But I would so love,
to see a really deep literature view that is looking for what are the set of truly truly cost effective, reasonably straightforward public health interventions like these, like let abatement that that we can do that way to improve
Human flourishing I mean when I think of I have seen so many studies on capital gains. Taxation I have seen
in so many studies on things that politicians fight about
and whether our studies on lead in this is a great study where parliament has begun iodine. You know when I
go through and I look at the literature views that I find in the philanthropic, ineffective, altruism communities. When I go around, there's like this gap between
the attention given to the real killers, things like malaria or in the long run extinction level rest took those are real, there's an interest in things that are horrifying and they kill people early infant mortality. I would made incredible games and I don't want to take any
way that work is really phenomenal and then there is a lot of interesting things we fall
about an and why we fight about them is not a straightforward level of importance it. It has to do with. Does a collector identity,
This is something that the parties disagree on etc, but there is also the sort of middle range. Where are you?
making kids who may be fine
if you don't have the iodine right.
Your income is eleven percent lower or you don't get the eleven percent boost. I should say it's not that you're dead,
LISA Lease unless you're you're either inefficiency is really really bad, but it would be
good to see more in that kind of Biddle space, because that shit,
the first meeting of politics. We should be able to agree on its those things right that the things that are not that expensive
help people of somewhat better lives at a pretty straightforward. The only politician, I can think of said recently, who really
a lot of energy and to this end he did in a wasted that upset alot of people. But Michael Bloomberg was very interested in things here. He don't lotta. Thinking about public health had created administration with love
interest in it, but it isn't something you see that often in governance mentions it in presidencies and end. It would be good. I think that this stuff, like
for the same reason does it without much attention. It might actually be a lot easier to get political systems to do it.
I am so glad you brought up effective, altruism, not only because it gives us an opportunity to remind people that our own Dylan Matthews is like working on an effective, altruism project that will be forthcoming on box dot com at some point and then not too far future, but also because
So effective, altruism, movement is
one of the strongholds of bloodless technocrats that, like Matt, was talking of
partly because it's a way of
thinking about problems that don't necessarily require rooting through government to solve. Rightly you don't
actually need the american government to endorse a global. I assault adaptation program. You dont need national governments to endorse that right. There are lot.
of these kind of to the extent that a lot of this is a low hanging utility fruit, it's much easier
to do in a way that doesn't require us to actually work through inefficient, do you no democratic institutions,
That gets a lot harder when we reach a certain level of you know
stability and affluence and the really important goods become not material but symbolic, but that I think we were wrap this up, but
sad, Jane for joining us unaware, Tuesday, appearance thanks to everybody,
for listening. I want to remind you all again that the weeds has been nominated for this year's people's choice. At best awards, you can vote for a show for free by going to progress towards dot com or by tapping
Lincoln, you show notes putting it's Tuesday July thirty first, that is today to do not
The lives of millions of people suffering from lack of salt iodine are injured.
Progress towards d come right now to cast your vote for the weeds, thinks we're engineer. Riven tanner are producer, Pritchett Armstrong, which will be back.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-11.