« The Weeds

Debate Weeds: Ezra and Matt on the long-awaited Democratic presidential debate


Matt and Ezra weigh in on the first Democratic presidential debate of the 2020 cycle.

Read more of Vox's coverage of the debate here:

Winners and losers from night one of the debate

Winners and losers from night two of the debate

Matt on Warren's performance

Ezra on Harris' performance

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeah. This is Marquez Brownie Acre and Cuba HD, and this is Andrew, Manga Nellie. We will introduce you to our podcast way, form the new sedition to the Vocs media podcast network, so I've spent Over ten years, reviewing tech products and consumer electronics for millions of people on the income, fifty Youtube Channel and now on the way forward. Ass, Andrew and I use that experience to dig even deeper into latest tech for smartphones too. I max to electric cars, so have you got your lover or attack head or if you just want to figure out whether the latest gadget is worth your harder in cash? Give us a lesson sacred, fine, formed the empty beefy pike ass on your favorite Pakistan every Friday see over there. So sorry, I'm so sorry as a guy at this is split milky if it's got a fake
so it's gotta come back and stood up low, welcome to another of the weeds, any bucks media podcast network. I Matthew places joined today by as recline like us in new format, as was Nelega expert, I hope the energy are not linked to a sector. That is how it works through its great technically. I guess it's it's our show. So we can, we can do but so ok, Mozilla democratic debate. Lately it was a most commentary and this has been pretty horse racy it in some way
deservedly soak. It was like twenty people, s heart of a horse racing, but I'm innocent, like aids. Just like a big question here in like a huge field of twenty people, is like who will be like a real candidate, the leader in the process who we really like, dig deep in, but there was like some policy grounds picked out, and this is the way it's a lot of pine. We wanna talk about it and, I think, to me. The most striking thing was the very large number of Democrats who agreed without William Castro proposal to repeal section thirteen twenty five of, I guess the Immigration Naturalisation ACT, because both like Betelgeuse refusal to agree to this was like everybody agreed like it. Catastrophic moment for his candidacy and then tons of people signed up for it, and this is like a completely unfamiliar policy topic that then a couple days before the debate. Elizabeth, One had indoor headed Dorsey went so let it be so like
weeks ago. I nodded, but ok. So since era, which we have talked about many times with Dara I cast in the mid nineties nineties, the american government for the first time created a specific crime, of entering the United States illegally right. So previous, really it had been that, like it wasn't illegal to enter illegally and that men very, very he's followed from being present in the country without legal authorization, but there wasn't like a crime of it, but in nineteen eighty six, this crime was created. It was against civil code, though wait I mean, but in the end the general sense that, like to open a restaurant, you do to get a permanent right and so like. If you dont, have a permanent right. That's illegal, unlike those such a restaurant right right
but what this changed was that, in addition to you could be deported cause you weren't here illegally. There was only one here legally where there is also no like a crime and they could prosecute you for the crime of illegal entry. This does not happen in practice. An enormous amount right like the standard depredation process is they deport you. They don't like. The american governments goal is not to have unauthorized people in american jails, but it is an option that is available to prosecutors. And in particular it was the? What? When we talk about like the family separation policy of the Trump Administration, what was happening there on a technical basis is that at the authorized border crossings doing metering rights. They were saying, like people can't come, that the legal ports of entry and apply for asylum, so then
who cross the border between the points of entry and try to make asylum claims there and the Trouble administration was saying no, when you come across between the ports of entry, we're going to prosecute you for the crime of illegal entry. and then because you are being prosecuted for a crime, you go to pre, trial, detention and then because you're in pre trial, detention, don't normally send children into jail rights. You become separated from your parents, and so this is entered the discourse as family separation, and almost everybody agrees that the family separation was horrifying. Unlike Trump Administration back down from it. So if you were to imagine Democrat standing up their put your hands up being like do you want to make sure that this family separation never happens again were, and all the hookers the hands up and we'll be like? That is an incredibly banal debate. Parliament, I have rarely seen
so banal democratic, universally, rejecting a Trump administration policy that was hideously unpopular, the trump himself abandonment within thirty six hours, fines or re framing as we are going to decriminalize crossing the border, Suddenly it's like a very unfamiliar like. I didn't want to say, is unpopular because hit so outlandish that, as far as I know, nobody has ever pulled it but it doesn't sound good and you gonna be up there with Trump has been saying for years that the democratic position on immigration amounts to open borders and what Castro I was in war and agreed to- and they got a way as to ITALY, to linking isn't open and not everybody. We should say yes, but a number of
and it is on the two stages, and what something I notice in the second debate was it. It was. There is even less dissension over at them in the first, like people had watched better, get is but handed to upon this and decided not to be in his bed by an end, in particular like Joe Biden. Right, like Z, elect debility candidate, who knows that people on the left are going to complain about him, no matter what he does right because, like you see on the left, dont want Joe Biden to be the nominee, because Joe Biden is like not a die, hard left winger. I had expected him to like spend twelve hours prepping on this, so that, unlike a better yes, he could big a defensive position. He could say your peers, what my Joe Biden, Mine MT, I was waiting for to be like listen, I care about the
Chris of millions of long settled. Undocumented people in the United States mean Brok like we fought for combination, immigration reform. We fought to prioritize criminals, we fought for Dhaka, we fought for dogma like this is like hard work, but it's incredibly important and we ve been driving at it for years, and I think it would be incredibly irresponsible to the interests of those ball till. I completely derail this quest in favour of a lot of other learn of the matter. I felt Bernie Sanders, who has the credibility on the left, sometimes to not go or other candidates on? Let go my do the same thing I mean I've talked to send us about open borders and he he's he's a borders. Guy Bernie Sanders has during his career. Looked at embrace with some scepticism feels are really cuts in wages are native born workers. Borders is a coat brothers plot, so much so did we learn that I thought both Biden in Sandoz for different reasons both at their leading in the polls, but also that, for different reasons, save the ability to stand up to some of these trends. They're not like a lower your candidate trying to try it.
A couple levels in the in the debate. My might say like no like we're not actually can I can. I say that as a journalist, this is like always like my worst nightmares, because, like can imagine writing a billion fact, checks exploit dinner is like twelve to eighteen months from now about how like ok, but you can still be the port right so like. On the one hand, it really isn't open it's not worth and, on the other hand like it's not that helpful to be in the very specific context of this family separation thing like the fact that this law was on the books made a big difference. But family separation was actually one of the rare instances there were. A lot of things were like Trump has found odd legal loop Walls laying around like this emergency economic powers act unlike National Security, tariff son, european cars and stuff and exploited the loopholes, and a lot of people been like woe that goes,
the norms and families unfairly subversion like that? Actually worked like keep back now Sancho zealots, but opinions emissary, in his work and in thirteen twenty five, because I grew I want to draw a kind of turn and underline dynamic the debate. So then something that happens both nights is, I should say, the way. The debate, moderate approach, a debate, and this was the first to the democratic debates was he did not want people to explain their policies. They were looking for, like the seems in the democratic arguments like every every single question. More or less was hey. We know you support the liberal policies. Be disguised support was unpopular part of every one of those policies. Not how does it like? What do you want to do on health care or had us Medicare for our work, but raise your hand if you want to abolish private insurance, and so nice and you have importantly Warren raise her hand alongside is wine into body ordinance, Bosnia and
or in raising. It was important here because she has been holding. She does not have our own healthcare planning and she's been holding to a I like Bernice Plan a lot of ways to get to Medicare for all, I'm I'm not gonna like pain myself. Only the one that's been creating some frustration like Jacobin spin hitting her forehead? I mean, there's been a sense of her. Being fuzzy and places of of import levels below like raises are hand, says healthcare as a basic human right. I fight for basic human rights. I wasn't shock basque. As my interview with her about a month ago, I had asked her about markets in health care and she said nope. It just doesn't work there like healthcare as a basic human right. She's could beginning to work on this answer, but she it fell to me that
Week warns team. Looking at their Pauling had decided, there is going to be no room to our left, like there's going to be no space for centres on our left, like we are going to take the abolish private insurance lane with him or gonna endorse willing Castro on thirteen twenty five like there's gonna, be nowhere. You can go on our left like that's, not that's, not gonna, be a vulnerability for us, so the second night, then this comes up again and of course, Sanders raises hand on it. Ended calmly. Harris raises her hand on it point is this ends it becoming a debate about abolishing private insurance, not really about Medicare for all, but about this quite again unpopular part of this otherwise quite popular policy. But then it gets taken a couple and a couple other directions. There's another one of these raise your hands. If questions, which is healthcare, front door,
mended immigrants, which this is something broker bomber, very specifically wrote out of the affordable care act. Then there is a whole thing which I Wilson yelled during the July and has been efforts on this California been looking for nobody care waiver fer a couple years, shudder at undocumented immigrants to their plan, but every Democrat on the stage races her hand on this, and I want to say for the record. I think this is obviously good policy. I think that an Buddha judge, in particular by the way, tried to walk a line on it. Where it says, look, doesn't he basis? It does mean they get subsidies, but of course you can buy in undocumented immigrants. One are human beings to our people who handle or food and care for children right. The bus with us, India, that, like disease, cares Mayor citizenship papers, it's crazy! You don't want to catch that. He think think. The whole thing is just like a weirdly. I want to catch a flu despite my face policy, but anyway it's quite unpopular. It's been like a third rail and health care for a long time and liberal policy circles and every Democrat endorses it. This is then, what Donald Trump tweets about after the debate
and then there's a moment were Bernie Sanders, says and just to be clear. Medicare fraud will, of course, paper for abortions, which again, I think, is reasonable and actually good policies. What you see in other countries, but overall, what you saw was the democratic field movingly quite far to the left on a lot of policies and then the candidates who Didn't want to do that, like a Bennett, a hiccup Super Delaney, they get no traction bite and doesn't want to create space on his off. So he's not picking any of these fight, and so overall, like the whole field, shifted in the direction of our opening a lot of buildings for the general election in a so I agree with other eyelashes. It's just. I was surprised like a thing that candidates often have done in debates in the past is attack the Monterey
there's an I was surprised that you didn't see that their right cause. I understand what the moderator during my like, we are media personalities. I have been known to like try to create entertainment in a discussion. politics wait until it essentially what they were doing for four hours across two nights, was a series of like shit tests for Democrats running for President rightly they were not. trying to explore the nuances of Medicare for all They were like very deliberately saying, ok, I am going to take the most unfavourable framing dust of policy issues and I am going to put you in a difficult position of either. Racing, an unpopular framing of your own policy or else creating tension between you and Bernie Twitter. It's not like. I don't.
That is a moderate prerogative to use the time that way, if that's what they want, but it gets us the candidates prerogative to like push back on your right like which Harris did a little bit. Not in one of these raise your hand, questions, but the first moment were you really saw like her commanded. The debate was. She got the third question and the first who were these same kind like? How are you pay for it, and then he goes to two Harrison's like how you pay for all these like free causes and Jesus. You know I do here. You are asking a question when Donald Trump were passing passes with top one percent, and it may not literally be true MSNBC, wasn't asking a question rather time, but it was a very effect retorted. You could have said when, in the second night Harris Gonna set very genuinely you know, I watched last night's debate. I watched one hour of the debate and I watched a second hour of the debate and then I watched one hour of this debate. I want you guys, ask no questions about what we are going to do to help millions of Americans who don't have health insurance. I watch was no questions about what Europe can do for millions of Americans who want to afford prescription drugs, no question
about what you want to do for senior citizens who struggle with medical thread. I would like to tell people what I am going to do about all of that. I am going to do about. All of that is creating Medicare for all plan D. Medicare for all plan is going to have no premiums, its can have no deductibles is, could have no cost sharing and like yes, it, is true that, because you are going to be able to see any day after in America with no deductible at no cost sharing you, not going to buy a secondary private insurance plan. To me, that is common sense. The way you phrased it is obviously designed to make me look bad. I get it like us. and love and war. But, like honestly, I think, what's important here is the millions of Americans who are struggling to afford health insurance. Wait like the immigration stuff, like is a little different, but I got and healthcare like is unimportant
They seem general wondering about a lot about what one thing to be like media critic, for a minute is that I think this made for debate is quite hard to follow for people, because the narrator, the moderators, we're looking for narrow questions that would create these this kind of conflict. They were getting into things it complicated father is another one on the first night about. Would you restore the Randal exactly as it had been before, which is like a weird like guts Pronto, the boy you would have a new Nicosia, headquartered Bugger say well like it's a good deal, but like, of course, will be an information normal like I said it would be like like what do you think about and he had re entered. This was in a lot of that, and so, for you know, most people are not paying that much attention to the campaign. Like these debates are the first exposure alot of voting to get to the candidates. It's not a problem. I think too, at some point. Try to like explore the divisions between them, but for the only thing you to be exploring the divisions between them. I think both is. Is it just makes it hard to follow to be
leaving aside from everything else, cause you end up in these very technical parts of the of the answers that said one thing you saw underneath the debate was a real feeling that the only way to win in them credit party right now is tat, is to move pretty hard to the left and something it's interesting about that is given bindings like continued position. Atop the field we ve seen off his opposed to be pulling, but he has held it for quite some time. Slot really obvious. That's true right. The whole thing is holding on Bernie Sanders is ground, but whether or not like Bernie Sanders or Brocklebridge understood the Democratic Party better is interesting and, above all, if you go back to await much like Clinton and others like very much had a view that there were limits on what the population would accept from democrat threat. Obama always with somebody who had a sense that if you go too far, you're gonna lose like voters in the middle and so p, which I do not go too far in here. You know Ellison the campaign, you wouldn't swarth individual mandate. He did not have a single pair healthcare plan Billy. He was somebody who I think
is discredit at this point, but nevertheless really pushed for a border security and deportations approach on immigration, to build credibility that within, You are a conference of deal now, some of what you're seeing reflects a sense of that kind of politics has failed and I think it's an interesting did dynamic within a visa. Led circles in the Democratic Party but nevertheless is created, push that, I think is, is pretty profound too often really know how that will play out, and we also don't know how much the policies that they are taking are gonna be held to his work, our complaint budget by right, because there is clearly it like. It is just not true that the Democratic Party is composed at its rank and file level of hard left idiot swayed and, like we see time and again right when Andrew Cuomo went against the annexes in New York in Vienna, liberal blue state, like he won, handily
against right window in fine style got a challenge from the left from forgotten his name that states and a president here, but he was. It was important there, because her challenger was the president of the caliph. When you state Senate, like not the star of sex. In the said, he read a totally credible leftwing challenger and he lost look again pretty badly in in a blue state right. You haven't serjeant wins right, see one in queens this woman, one outcome on one, this Queens Diana Presley, Massachusetts, yeah Presley, so you know left wing in in certain places, but its very calm, and for me, of dual also you do not win in Michigan without even the democratic, primarily exactly like this, which is very common for more moderate Democrats to win a primary right. Binding is in a weird may so position as a candidate which is, as former vice president, states. He is such a strong contender that he sucks up the support
of a very large number of people who would be inclined to support a more moderate Democrat, but at the same time like a hundred seventeen years old, he is roiled in, like not like an unwillingness to provide free abortions for illegal immigrants, but like controversies about working with segregationist in the nineteen seventies and he's not a as strong, I think, potentially a face for that kind of politics The other people in the field, but its work we really hard right like that. Due to a more left wing than Biden can like take him on, but its very challenging for Amy Club HR. To just like make the argument that, like you, should have me, stand up
these positions, but like Ba younger person with a more modern sensibility about the world, unlike less weird nostalgia for the Seventys, and it would be healthier, I think, to have that decision. for people like not unreasonable. Canada's, like hidden loop Club, Chart Michael Bennett. I think this is literally Wapoota judges doing by an interesting. I put a judge- easy really doesn't get into this competition, so he doesn't do the better care for all abolished. Private veterans, like his view is. I am a younger person, the music more inspiring, who is close to the mainstream Obama style Democrat, and you should vote for me and I was actually struck by the degree to which he didn't try to sort of moved. Anybody's left on policy authority did a nice job in debates and his, but I think he's coming in a set, a weak position, given that the shooting itself then, but I was
struck by, I think of everybody. He is in a way making the most direct play for binding Celine yeah by sort of like right, obama- await candidacy himself out. The key is pew: he's not Obama if it could have a lot of trouble. Putting differ got back coalition, but I do think it's notable that these things come up in the health care for undocumented immigrants, emigrants, a question went to him and he walked back right. He said yeah, but it's not like they're gonna like get covered through subsidies. they could just by the huge was interesting because so I sat down with some people talk about how they in pulling terms, are seeing. What's what's going on here, and demographic Fifthly, right conceptually, it feels like warning Anderson, are playing in the same place and that may be, but a judge, and by an hour, but in terms of voting base. Its like wine and Buddha Judge have the same view
Sweden is incredible fluidity, but we have suborned supporters and bondage supporters, and I was told in particular that, like booted, you supporters, are the most acute in people. So there was enough. edible over representation of Buddha judge fans in the audience for the first debate, right like which he wasn't in, and they were super impressed with Elizabeth, worn, huh right because, like he wasn't there right, and this also like people, don't I think no this, but this incredibly dense, like interpersonal network ties between worn and Buddha Judge, yes, which discredits incredibly dense interpersonal stuff enmity. Yes, I mean end and it is its is problematic and why bits alike, sociologically, like Warren ISM and put a judge's are very very soon-
for us and by the same token, Sanders am Biden both have much more of a working class constituency and at this point, Bernie over indexes on african american support, which is different from how it was in twenty. Sixteen m in his overall support is lower right, but would Bernie has mostly lost since twenty. Sixteen is white voters and he is made some gains with african Americans, as has become like a better known, more seen as like a democratic party type presence. So it's a bit of a curious like. I think we all know that, like verged on really vote on privacy, but like the candidates really are talking like a lot bout policy, seemingly in the hopes of winning votes that that in itself, like is,
legged zone strange dynamic, because I'm not really sure what anyone is accomplishing out there and its it striking two like how many issues have gone off the stage in a kind of odd way, like almost nobody like talked about how like Donald Trump, is a bad precedent or boy. Look, let's go back and then come back and talk by this and so more like rigorous way. Ok,. we live with a lot of noise between the pings, the dings, the emails labelled urgent. That aren't really that urgent, it's hard to cut through the static zero when on the things that really matter just like, we can train our body Is to be better running faster and lifting heavier, we could train our minds to stay focused. Do all the noise we live with step. One download head space, hits bases and have loaded with guide you meditations designed offer a daily doses.
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candidates on their own and interest typewriter. What they did in the debate. Criticism that the top here, what I want to start your cobbler Harris who is far away, I think the break out star from the debates. Yet I think that is important too. To get the backdrop of Harris, I don't think I've ever seen a politician checker quite like hers in the sense of it. Democratic Party has lots of eternal schism. It has Bernie voters who don't like started the democratic, stylish man it has I wholly Clinton votaries you dont, like Bernie Sanders. It has a bomb in relation people who don't like Elizabeth WAR, and it has you know folks from younger and more diverse party. You dont, want to be represented by an old white man, All these things, and so a quite Everts coalition that make it somewhat hard to hold together. Anything about Harris has been she's quite new on the national scene and, if you think, if you'd created a candidate, no lab who may be could hold this together, she's a sort of Kennedy would create, but Kennedy who look on paper often don't perform well
all under the lights, and so has been this purblind question their lot of parts of the party that want to embrace Harris, but this business it can. She do it quest. round her right and urge be seen that much of her she designate Shop and Senate hearings budgets, been in. So many of them having only been ascended for a couple years, but she didn't have like the Obama, two thousand and four Dnc speech right. Nobody quite knows how she can perform and in this debate like she just walked in and owned it s count and she in particular did something really sharp, which is she walked in and she took apart Joe Biden note. Usually people don't go proclaim that this or upper cares of the campaign they dont really code negative. Quite this early, because you know why risk get bored she
I did was she took on Joe Biden in a way that was with the real message of it. I thought was, if I can do, is to him look what I could do Donald Trump, and why can't you imagined me in the debate with Donald Trump taken apart, that old white guy to and what she liked it was, very, very effective attack on bite instead of using bussing and using her personal experience it s sort of like off, offered a sort of note about who she and what she has come through in what she can speak to and also it exposed a lot of weakness on Joe Biden. Partnership, weakness in terms of he's got old positions to answer for but weakness and that he is not prepared to answer for them right, which she also expose, which is a proper tory and perform it of weakness on bite. Its part will save it matters in the polls oftentimes. He sings don't matter as much as you think they will. But in terms of sort of like a red like how is your binding on the former is age gonna show, like you know, is he going to be able to come and knock the stuff back? He took a lot of questions at where the air and opened them quite a bit further.
And so what you have right now is like a lot of candidates who clearly could represent a faction of the party. But Paris is always been like a part like the Kemet. You would imagine. Being a party decides candidate, though it depended a lot of different groups to do creon if only she could show them that she could bear that, wait. I and she began showing that she could bear that way. I think I agree with all that. I just to issue a note of dissent in a day where I think most of the coverage is like extremely pro comma I think a lot of the Elect ability worries that have been in the neighbourhood of Elizabeth Wine, like really should apply to come on. Harris read like when you were talking about like Harris, is democratic, conditional candidate, like that's all, correct, and I think, almost like catastrophically so that it's like you need to imagine a person who is not strongly identified, but the Democratic Party who are they gonna want
for in a general level, do you or do you need to amount? I mean going back, there's a theory that you have to win. The white were in class, but also, if hello Clinton had had a bomb is turn out among african Americans. He would have one yes and if she would have website that that would be a case for Harris if you think that she will liver that whenever I dont want to like rule it out, but like Harris had kind of like got out of the top two year and therefore didn't get that kind of elevated scrutiny that their peoples you get there but, like you know, she's been in California politics, her big Joe Biden take down was like it was about race rain and she is not right. Like Obama was the black politician spent all this time telling the white people about how he wasn't like one of those black politicians right, unlike Harris, has not done that I got to see. You know I'm an interesting thing about Harris. It will see. Oh she plays it. One thing we're Tarmac Biden: Earl
was it he asked of yet is not he's not gonna holding lying on some of the things you might expect. Mohira line on so it's been stricken me about. Her is actually Yes, she's got a lot of scrutiny about her prosecutors record. Guess where she is a Democrat who is still from a period of time. She frames as a progressive prosecutor, which in any way she was but also prosecutors tougher and she does hold to the view that crime is bad and they have a good to arrest. which I always appreciate, and so I will see, might might be at the leg. Harris will definitely women twenty point by point is more that coming out of this. I think it reshuffled the sense of like what is our top like bite. It looks a lot weaker and here so, I would say, was, and I think that it needs over his head. They sort of weird tears, as I always am I, here to be asked how concerned by figure like it's a jump up right. She's now, like I would say, maybe too or one be Pro Harris, which is that I have found
I'm a minute, no eight about the other candidates and escorted that, like her, This seems to give the most thought to the glittering question of what she would do. As present like she hasn't, like. Maybe illegal gun, control idea. Her signature legislation is like well crafted D, five from budget reconciliation in every line income tax for way, rather than like asserting that she's gonna end filibusters or something she's like thinking about the actual problems which I do find, but also a woman at one thing on earth is we're talking about the Medicare stuff earlier and Harris the thing that happened initially, she came into the campaign in the CNN town halls about where the debates gonna make me nostalgic with ASEAN and her eyes with her with their depth. Is that you know she got kind of tied up in this abolished private insurance thing, and then she gonna walk that back over time. Then it looked like last night. She had like gun like way back into it, and then she got another question Bush that the question about this
quite unusually phrased answer. She says it like the way she interpret it was. Would you give up your own reassurance for this? She actually may still be holding to that Tredick fuzz the sides of this a little bet, which actually something would be an unwise strategy here. Is it's ok so I won't talk about Bernie Sanders. I feel like. I am one of the only people in America who is warmer to the Bernie. Twenty twenty can pay him that I was to the burning when he said deny that we feel that way. I'll get a first streets me that I don't feel like he is like trying to win the elections I don't understand what was going on out there, because a lot of these other candidates right, you know, You talk to me, like people to judge he's a huge star. That means he's poignant. Eight percent right so like a good performance for from air peat is like get to eleven percent. Tried Other people out there like nobody knows who the fuck J. Italy is right so he's just like trying to get attention
right, but everybody knows you Bernie Sanders stripe he's out there for a long time. Ran a strong campaign in twenty sixteen. He got a lot of people to vote for him, but it was not enough people to win the election so now. What he has to do is like not literally repeat himself time and again, but like a dress arguments that are relevant to voters in twenty twenty who are not currently supporting him and, like, I would love to hear him say, explore lay, for example, that, like one good thing about Bernie Sanders, is that yes, it is true that some of his economic policy ideas that media finds cookie but one nice, but that is it means it would Bernie Sanders. You get a debate about the concrete material interests of the american people rather than about like Donald Trump, slight racist circus. He kind of said that I would say I've
Just like you give an answer on the on the debate field. Where you just get away, we win against Donald Trump. Is we expose them for fraud and economics in a way that has not been done yet? I think the difficulty Bernie Sanders had other less I'd. Also, like you, I'm much warm room, but but on concrete things, one I think when he sixteen Bernie Sanders. Actually, polish I've always liked of covered him for a long time like it looked like. I think you like I've reputation being carbon em, and I try to be tough on candidates employ and when there are a little one, but I've always liked him. As a politician is always said, the lad, interesting things in it as a presidential candidate than you have this sort of like different levels: scrutiny. How do you run your policy? Is what kind of staff to attract since twenty sixteen is put in a lot of really strong staff. He's really stepped up. His game Foreign Paul ran away. They actually think separate them from Russia to the field and important well, and these have taken a lot of the policies if he was running on. So it is a lot to be said there the thing about them. The two knights of debate is really striking. Bernie Sanders ideas, one those debates
I mean they set the terms of the whole community, and I mean that we hear you recall it is drawn on another Medica for all the way any Sanders distinguishes himself and assumes himself in twenty. Sixteen was it he's only guy supports he's, like kooky leftwing ideas, but out of their not kooky, leftwing ideas. Now that every candidate I has either adopted them or has adopted some kind of like weapon, Ized Counter attack its much harder for him to distinguish himself, who is actually left like trying to stand out on style and approach and calls for political revolution, and he just had a lot more trouble. Having already set the terms of the debate he had like for his ideas, he had trouble resetting it for him. Zinc, oftentimes, assume, calmly, Harris was winning a debate.
Four Bernie Sanders ideas with Bernie Sanders extending over there on the stage or the same thing was true in differ with those of war on the farm policy. Be so is important because, like, unlike all this, they talk about like this is what the present actually nailed Joe Biden on that yet another row. And how is it s more than a paper yet off? Yet none- and I agree with that and It's weird that does like Biden. Takedown happened over that site somewhat obscure and entered seventies. Bussing incident because, like the foreign policy to me, seems like Joe Biden like on the merits like this is what gives me pause about Joe Biden, which is that, like I covered not like prehistoric Joe Biden but like modern day Joe Biden, vice President Joe Biden, chairman of the Centre Farm Relations Committee, Joe Biden you, don't like it like his nice guy he's smart. He knows I world leaders, but when questions would arise that prominent Democrats disagreed about
like more often than not Joe Biden, was on the wrong side of that disagreement. Like the Nancy Policy chaired the intelligence Committee and Joe Biden chaired the Foreign Relations committee. Its policy, as a chair of a relevant committee, decided that George W Bush was on the wrong track. Joe Biden decided he was on the right track right by came out with this plan at some point that, like the only possible solution, was to partition Iraq right, unlike that, wasn't right. by and bye, was right, I think inside the Obama administration debate about the Afghanistan. Certain Zella got cartoon whose, like like blundering at every step of the way, so like he was right on that one, but I think he was for the Libya intervention which, which I don't agree with, whose against it, I remember the more rapid so like,
I don't know he was also inside internal above administration is all foreign policy but whose against doing Obamacare raised that scale so like. I have no idea whether Corey Booker would make good farm policy decisions under pressure. I've never heard dress the topic, but, like weep Biden, has I get sensitive track record of this and like it's worse than conflict, but an idle that's than they are happy his answer on this. So he got this question from me. Not a basically having been on the wrong side of rather rack? Why should we trust your foreign policy views his answer me with his by far worse moment at bay and another will be his most damaging, but it was one that revealed the most. We might achieve. Ok, so first it make any sense he had to know this was coming like this is the obvious question. Ass Joe Biden has also come up before her head, like a comic book, came up in two thousand and eight it's come up since and what he said was kind of like the hitched. A little bit at the beginning is hardly like follow, but what he then said was, after George, W Bush. Like abuse of power, I gave
more help to give him? I was lighted with Obama and oh bomb turned to me, and he said Joe. You need to pull the troops out of Iraq, and then I pulled them, including my son, a hundred and fifty thousand troops out of Iraq, and so a few things on this one. This thing that bite in his doing what I do get the politics of words like the way the Obama recession worked, was a bomb ahead of us you do like Joe, you do it and then every time Joe Dislike personally, like drove her body. That's not true, like that's, not how many of us worked, but the second thing is the theory of the Joe Biden candidacy is that he is a successor to a bomb, his presidency and to be that successor. The thing that you want to do is be the person on the stage or Flex Obama's thinking best right. Like eighty, you had a bomb as president. You would like to have a miserable as president. Again, like Joe Biden, is your next best thing. Japan
not doing that. He didn't give an answer. That said, you know, I think, broke a bomb was right about this, and I was wrong when I learned from that is that we know blah blah blah whatever it might have been. As a theory of foreign policy and a theory of measuring intervention and in other countries he's not running as Obama to he's running with a bomb as a shield was not the guy on the stage who sounds like Brok, Obama, that's, probably PETE, booted hedge, or something to maybe in some ways calmly Harris like he's running it as the guy who like hides behind Bronco Bomber and that suddenly front like for a little, you hear the first four times like yeah. That's smart, like Joe Biden as I get defending Obama or like mentioning that he work with Obama, and he realize it and no point: is he actually really echoing Obama? a sort of using it as a protective device, and I don't think it's gonna wherewith
he actually either needs a good argument of his own or he needs Obama's good arguments. But this thing reads: like my bad arguments, don't matter cause I served behind somebody, but that's a really good case for electing Barack Obama but significant case relationship. What can I do think? I will be interested to see whether anybody ever puts this point more squarely because, like I've talked to a number of older working class, people, Democrats like Joe Biden and they always site- does like Obama thing an end. I feel it reflects on their part, a not super, attentive persons. Understanding of what the role of vice president is right, and so, like Biden, was a ticket balancing peck. Yes, right now, like almost foil Obama, legs by Obama's team, respects Joe Biden. They think he made valuable contributions to their team, but he was a complimentary pieces selection. Like deliberately read, it was an effort to show that, like boy
Och. Obama is not alarmingly woke that, like he will hang out with this, I gaff prone older white guy from Pennsylvania. Right like it wasn't here's my double right wasn't Clinton. Al Gore, Peck right, you wasn't. If you love Barack Obama, you will also love Joe Biden. It was actually, if you have serious doubts about Barack Obama, you will find Joe Biden reassure yes, and it worked like he was a good pick. Leggy was it aid, the Obama Ticket- far and it are. You will be made the Obama administration stronger. But what is not true is that if you are a Bronco bomber super fan, you should draw from that. The conclusion that, like Joe, ireland- is the next best thing. It's like its is literally the opposite of that nice. It's that you wouldn't run and Obama Booker ticket, because that would be pointless, and this is why, in twenty sixteen the Obama World
coat coherent, bite enemy. I did reporting on this is us. I think it is a peace cause by the lake firmly dropped up America published, but I had talked to a bunch of people in a bummer world to ask: why isn't there any more behind you by the like. Why don't I lay coconuts out that strong like why? Don't I hear anybody son of pushing him in or just anything like he's a well liked by President like what what what happened there and what I heard it come again and again was we love Joe Biden like shows great? But the thing is you don't really want him running the meetings? You want him in the meetings, but if you like, Obama's cool, technocratic managerial discipline, style super empirical duchess, not how bite it operates, and so people who were attracted to Obama we're not unnaturally attracted to the idea of Joe Biden being President, they really like Joe Biden, but it to your point, he's a file and is not just a fail in his public image. He's a file on how he operates is
and how he makes decisions is a fallen, how he runs a meeting Obama's a disciplined things and on time, like Joe Biden, its endless ball sessions like it went pretty deep and so now I think, a little bit more. Both first some views about flexibility and some views something about kind of sanders in some. Even Warren, like fights with the Obama World. Is it a lot of people who around Obama, unlike are not paid their dues and democratic party at want, like that next position in the White House, if Sanders and to a lesser but still very real potential extent, Warren get the get the nod, they don't get it. and so I think that she is a little bit more circling around Joe Biden, because, like that's, why starvation? Although again Stimuli Kamel Harris could interrupt that, but there isn't a circling round him in the sense of look, I served with Brok. Obama like this is the next best thing like that's not the argument, but can we tunnels with warrant will sing another brick documented.
People often ask me of prosecuting the mob, is like the movies well there is violence, he cracks this guy over their head and pop. Just like a melancholy. There are heads, so I wasn't just permission to take em apple permission to take out his own nephew. But after taking down over one hundred mobsters. I can tell you this the thing is much more interesting barely holding former mob prosecutor and host of the new podcast up against a mom the mob lift the veil on the world's most secretive criminal organization, La Cosa Nostra, we'll talk to profit, Peters, former mobsters, an undercover agents and Ike Hollywood. All these stories are true new up loads drop every Wednesday starting September. Eighth list
and follow up against the mob on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app the cat is a podcast from New York magazine, but it's it's more than that. Its thirty minutes, week, where we really wrestle with ourselves we're talking sidle expectations, race, sex, career ambitions and our bodies I just spent Emma Instagram, looking at Health any size, nutritionist take talks, and you know what I've got. I'm a factor on the internet. They just come to me baby. The algorithm, We're. Having conversations you'd only have with your most trusted friend, so Gabby. What were the most painful memories, no,
I'm gonna go era, listen to the cut on Spotify Apple or your favorite podcast app so night. One do you have a lot less electricity couldn't have all of these like your top, your prayers, but but worn was really the like. With like the candidate. Everything we ve all done up cares. What you're Russians were. You know. I thought I did like barn has been on the rise, and then I ll warrant, like a very poised play competent, like skilful performance. I know some people are wig doubt by her endorsing of the health care thing, but I thought that, like tactically, it's a hundred percent correct for her to not get into a fight with Bernie. is this people about this? She is clearly she
She is not actually appealing to Bernie Sanders as voters, but I think she is trying to appeal to Bernie Sanders. She is looking forward to a potential future scenario in which she gets ahead of him in the polls and he drops out and endorses her, which, from aid like issues, standpoint, would advance his kind of policy topics in you know she just showed that, like she is skilful up there, this with warrant duality right- and there is one I was with Martin- who is up there on the stage and who generated a lot of internet means from the most die hard. Hillary Clinton, loving people who I know right, which is just appealing to an axis of accomplished professional woman, company seen there's like an identity politics around that, like both Ray and Warren are like, like really good at their jobs right and that I think
clearly has an appeal to like a certain kind of person. Right who who looks up to that and wants to see the kind of diligence they both exhibit reward at a general sense. I also like seeing people will get the jobs and some are crave that politics right now, not me I like that you know the sloppy masses, but I can't ever is enough that, like while there kind of similar people, and they, Buyer, similar devotion and their staff, something so that here when I was alone, have very different, like ideas about gathers policy, and I do think that take the had somewhat seriously particular because wines operation is so policy oriented like she really is a very diligent. She really is a very competent and she has like up. We can only get like a kind of vast team of like grim idiot logs drawn from America's lust. oh faculty, is who she wants to install in positions of power and like it, it doesn't were folk poorly on her, but like
should be taken, so I will what? What are you saying her exactly like what you take away on this I mean. Obviously she is more liberal than Hillary Clinton. I views on how they differ, but I think you're saying something, but I'm not quite eirik a lot of people who, just like really hate Bernie Sanders, have like on the wine bandwagon to leg exercise their like emotional, anxious about the twenty sixteen primary and like they should think about like like do they actually agree, with Elizabeth Wind, like I think. A really good who isn't about four was with Martin is like you want her policy agenda become like like a medium like war and has so many plans, but like have you ready owes me lay eggs. I don't think I agree with us on a couple level, so let me say to raise one. I do think that the did to take your side to this for a minute. The plans thing feel sick, a quite false analogy to me between Warren and content, not just because
ants differ, but because Hilary artists bands reflect a total lies in world vs, hilarious isn't, like I talked to some guy yesterday. It Hillary Clinton had a plan for everything and when she had literally as many messages ass, she had plans and she would come into every single issue like a look at it like come up with some plan that could plausibly pass into the system that you could imagine alike there you go right. This is what the outfits told her to do, and so like nothing ever cohered interesting, a single message: Elsbeth worn, is very talented, technocratic, Blake Thinker, but anti system think are not a persistent thinker and all of she's. More than she's a talented policy maker is she's an incredibly like best of classic generationally, capable talented policy communicator and, like that's how she came out of nowhere to
the Sea of TB and then, when a Senate, see the Massachusetts and now be one of the leading candidates. Further for the democratic nomination for the presidency and behind that Ellis Porn has a lot of plants and they all basically say the same thing. They all say wealthy people have too much money and opportunity and power, and she is going to redistribute the concentrations of economic power an opportunity and spread them around more widely whether you are like. That is why her wealth tax and all the things he buys at the very centre. for our pride energy? I really would encourage you to listen to her on my show on that or you can find in the weeds. Fiducia talked a lot about that there and you can see exactly how she how she frames out, but over and over again like what she is able to do is she's a lot of plans that reinforce one message, not a lot of plants. A creed
the different messages, and so in that way, I think the feeling I, when I see a lot of people fearfully comparing Warren Clinton like Clinton, had plans to Clinton was the best prepared to yet, but putting aside the fact that I quitted basically performed all democratic one government more votes in and all of that war and is offering a message through her plans about what she would do to change this system and Hillary Clinton just had a lot of plans that reflected hurling status as a policy maker within the system, pretty different gets? No, I think we're a hundred percent in agreement. Your version of this is like, if you are terrified, of mine, is Hillary Clinton to point our like: relax, she's, actually quite different guy version of this is like, if you were thrilled, that it was worthwhile. Is Hillary Clinton to point now like pay close attention, because
Actually quite do you think there are not many people who sharing my interpretation of it of the Hillary Clinton thing here. Is that a lot of people liked Clinton's preparation and competence, a sullen and actually didn't really like the that the ways in which he was bounded by her life within the system and so that the people who, like the symmetry between them Warren, is fixing up. but they have with Clinton more often than she is creating a problem they didn't like. I hear what you're saying that, like worn is sir, is a strong shift to the left from Hillary Clinton least in a number of areas of, though up the programme every area, but I dont know that those with parts of her Clinton the people wanted to preserve when they warn says in his speeches and stuff. Is that, like we need big structural change in America right
and I dont know talking to people who are mad about Trump it like do. They think we need big structural change in America or do they think we need? Donald Trump cannot be the president. You know yeah. I guess I warrant really likes. You sincerely believes that we need big start prevention, murder and obviously nobody is going to stand up there and be alike. Other measures, can change Madame from will be president, but I think if you look at people right who could get, they have demographically, similar supporters, but I, I think, actually different things going on right that, like what Mayor Peat is saying, is that, like I'm, like you weeds listener, like I'm an intelligent, thoughtful person who tries to pay attention to what's going on and say things that make sense right, and that is a big personality contrast with Donald Trump and then, if you listen to beat, unlike a variety of topics like he has thoughtful answers to these questions, he does not have like a vast total icing world
you or like an agenda for sweeping systematic change, he's like the kind of guy who might be a good mayor of your city right, which is like a job where, as mayor, it's like you take over right and then just like stuff happens, and you try to deal with it confidently right. Where's Donald Trump is President like he takes over, things happening and then he's just like throwing things all through the through right and like it's crazy and its chaos, and I think there's like like war in structural change message like that sentence, I can see why you might want to that. But I think you also might just want, like competent managerial ism, antipathetic, no change in any area of public policy like the minimum wage, as happened raised for fifteen years that that should be raised right, but, like is the big problem with America that, like we need to like take these pdf sworn has put out about, like all the corporate executives who deserve to be in prison or the problem. The Donald Trump as president, because he's a big difference between
imprisoning a vast swathe of corporate executives and just kicking Donald Trump out of the White House, and I just feel like that. Like Warren Discourse, it's like very, like hurray. She has a plan for that, but it's like what is the plan like? Do you agree with that plan like? Is this really is an air? Unless it, it should read her plans and look into their hearts. I do want to know one thing about our plans. I think something in this interesting about Warren is where she doesn't have a plan have can will two things right, so immigration and healthcare, yet it is in the places where she does not have a specific plan that she's adopted her like unpopular. We left wing views, I would say at least of the things I know. Basically, Elizabeth warranted extremely good at releasing plans that, if you pull them, they should poem free college doesn't palace walls. I would have thought so.
That's, not your percent true, but I think I have been a senator me a bit of a surprise. The reason I bring this up is, it is clearly not the case, but also with warrant doesn't have the staffing, the personal inclination or that personal. A city to create healthcare plan of her own or innovation plan of her own, and so it seems to me like, like my cottage galaxy brain on this if that's right level of brain. Maybe it's not is at what she is doing. Is it in Dore sing other people's ideas here, she's, not leaving? any room for them to get around her cousin Bernie size can't say like the big difference between being those with warrant is healthcare is like if she wondered if any Wainwright and she's gonna have Elizabeth, worn healthcare plan or the Elizabeth want immigration plan where maybe doesn't have section thirteen twenty five, but it replaces section thirteen twenty five with another section, the does something else. Bids are literally decriminalizing border crossing, but it is changing how it is. I don't know, but I just I just think that is an
trysting. I question Mark here: yes, because she releases so many plans not releasing a plan is a very distinct choice and why she is making that choice is worthy of some intact guess no. I grew then, especially because it right I mean, if you think about these two topic areas and we use Move amount dislike areas which she did politically dicey hand raising, but it's like health care is the top issue, pray for Democrats, an immigration is like be emotional centrepiece of Trump Airport? Yes, so those are like some odd lagoon. To just kind of like miss out on and if you look at some of the other candidates ride like those detailed break up Amazon,
but healthcare. You know bright Bernie services, gonna, do as you look like Castro and our work right, who both have like released a few plans, but not that comprehensively like they both have immigration point because save I see that as an important area until I put out a flag on right, whereas, like obviously has escaped Elizabeth Lynne's attention that people are arguing Landmine Immigration policy ride, she is waiting to come up with something, and I hope you know she comes up us something good on it at once. He met immigration beyond the like four corners of this third, enjoying five think I found the way all of the Democrats talked about immigration up there
to be a little bit problematic, the people who vote in elections are american citizens, and so, when you talk about your education plant and you're, talking about how the plan will help american strike me talk about your healthcare plan, you forget how will help Americans we talk about immigration plan. Like I m very pro immigrant like I think America should have like a generous kind, humane, welcoming immigration policy, but, like I think that, because I think that's the good for Americans. It's like not just a question of abstract benevolence and like there's a reason why we don't have long debate exchanges about people's foreign aid programmes even like objectively,
it's important what you do there? It's not important to Americans lives and, like you, have to get their on immigration like this is not an area of political strength for Democrats. You know I mean like it's true that, like trumps most extreme immigration, antics are not popular but, like you don't want to go to the mexican people with, like Donald Trump wants to put America first Democrats want to put honduran asylum seekers first, like you need to think about what you're trying to do and why it's good, unlike explain that the thirteen twenty five was. I got like a signpost of that right that, like wind power were embracing this. They say I decriminalize border crossing, because, unlike
give me some reason why it would make my life better right. Maybe you think huge drag on the judicial systems resources like, but they come up with something. So this is the basic my total icing world view of how politics works, but you're, saying earlier that this debate is full a lot of policy position taking, and yet people who care that much about policy at least not allow the distinctions between at what they do care lot about its identity and a lot of the policies of people taking in this debate are about establishing identity of some kind or another and in the Democratic Party right now being pro immigrant. is a very important part of the democratic identity and Donald Trump has made it a much more central part of the democratic identity and soap is showing that you will take risk and fire on this is a way of establishing like the strength that identity. Similarly with America for all stuff. One thing you dont really here,
that much in the whole Medicare fall debate. Is a debate over. Why like, why, like you, could just lower payments, for everybody, Medicare levels, private insurers and give you talk to healthcare, wants you to acknowledge the biggest illness system. What other like payment rates are much more important and you have national health systems. Do have private insurers national systems? Don't did you can do in all kinds of different ways, but it's an identity. Think re like I'm, somebody who believes I'm somebody who is against and who, your enemies. What is your group and so a lot of things happening in the debate? It seems to me in supporting the true on immigration, which is a very deep question of national identity and like what does it mean to be an american? What does it mean to be a liberal to your point, they're having a debate that seems curiously disconnected from Americans material interests, but this is constantly like the left wing were frantic why these debates are disconnected forgiven, met her interests and its because people primarily likely they very heavily participate in politics in terms of identity, grit status and
These debates are a king and on those motivations more than they are like a serious discussion of like who has the best policy and taken an empirical look at this, and given the implementation difficulties, I what will they do for the country, and I put a little bit about on the moderators on the way to be restructured. The not built till I have that conversation but, but nevertheless was a kind of position taking here. That is very much about democratic and the bride entities and just right now, and I think this is also a nature of an unsettled field and a very big field. There is very little thought about the general action. I think it is planning to like rats What do you mean it's? It's precisely because people vote more and identity than on policy that, like this way of talking about immigration, worry. Me, because I agree that I think there's a lot of different approaches to immigration that like can fly with the american public, but did to the typical person what is non negotiable,
Is that, like your concern, as a government has to be with American right and is could be a million things like who's ever heard of sex in one thousand three hundred and forty eight, you don't like you- can do different things at end, but yes, I like they are very cute in on this. What's interesting to me is that we did not see much talk about trade right, because trade is actually an issue on which the Democrats in good standing have like serious like direction all disagreements right like they can nit picking each other's healthcare plans like until you know that the cows come home, but there are all sorts of saying the same thing about healthcare, which is like the governments more involved and do more to regulate prices due more to subsidize people's care like their democrats, who believe that free trade is really good, that abandoning the transfer of partnership was a mistake that we should go forward with Tee Tipp with Europe, and they are Democrats who believe that.
like NAFTA, was a huge error that letting China into the deputy always a huge error, and that Donald Trump has been like, like a trade policy, faker engine, So I have heard the speeches from wine and sanders on one side of that debate. I've heard more pro trade sentiments from a work and for from Joe Biden, but this was not like brought in to the debate at all, even though this is a subject where there's like not like out not like I'm trying to annoy you by making who pick fights with each other, but where they have a really sincere directional, disagreement about the trajectory of national policy and where it too, is on some of these same identity. Type issues white, like one of the theory is of Sanders and Warren, and unlike going right before them like a dick that right like like one,
Democrats have had, is that they should use protectionist trade policy to key in a national mystic sentiments that Republicans that, like George W Bush, used to promote like hawkish, policy right and then another ideas that, like no like Democrats, should promote like cosmopolitanism as an economic development strategy for the United States swayed and it's like it's going to appeal to different kinds of people, and it has pretty. stanch all implications- rightly, this is like one of the big ways. Trump has turned politics a little bit, sideways, and it was strange to me too not really discussing. Thankfully, we have a thousand more debates, the dream, the jail I well thanks everybody out there for listening. I think TAT S, what I think to Jackson Beer Felt and our producers to go, and we will become until-
the cut is applied cast from New York magazine. But it's it's more than that. Its thirty minutes week where we really wrestle with ourselves we're talking societal expectations, race, sex, career ambitions and our bodies. I just said Taiwan, Instagram looking at health any size. Nutritionist take talks, and you know what I've got. I'm a factor on the internet. They just come to me baby, the algorithm We're having conversations you'd only have with your most trusted friend, so Gabby. What were the most painful memories I'm gonna go era, listen to the cut on Spotify Apple or your favorite podcast, app
Transcript generated on 2021-09-10.