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Domestic terrorism after El Paso


ProPublica’s Dara Lind joins Jane and Matt to talk about the mass shooting in El Paso and what it means to take white nationalist violence seriously.

Recommended reading:

“The top House Republican is blaming video games for the weekend’s mass shootings” by Jane Coaston, Vox

“A question for conservatives: what if the left was right on race?” by Jane Coaston, Vox

“Crush This Evil” by The Editors, National Review

“Who are the Trenchcoat Mafia?” BBC News

“Columbine: Whose Fault Is It?” by Marilyn Manson, Rolling Stone

“Network exposure and excessive use of force” by Marie Ouellet et al, Criminology & Public Policy (white paper)

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeah. This is Marquez Brownie Acre Amphibia hd, and this is Andrew Manga Nellie. We will introduce you to our podcast way, form the new sedition to the Vocs media podcast network, so I've spent over ten years, reviewing tech products and consumer electronics for millions of people. On the incubation. To channel and now on the way forward. Ass Andrew, and I use that experience to dig even deeper into latest tech for smartphones too. I max to electric cars. So if you're gadget lover or attack head or if you just want to figure out whether the latest gadget is worth your harder in cash, give us a lesson say can find way form the empty beefy podcast on your favorite Pakistan. Every Friday see over there What on earth is the EU doing? Just that makes a crazy noise.
Welcome to another, so did the weeds on the Box of Media podcast network. I Matthew Ecclesiastes here which in coastal and dare of land we, which we have sort of enriching, pointed out about something else, but over the weekend, Mass shootings in Dayton, Ohio and in particular in El Paso taxes, have back to the four a lot or debates about guns and and gun control that we ve been having on and off for years in this country, but also, I think, seem to have focused pension in a clear way than we ve seen in the past. The sort of eighty alive de Gaulle. Ah white supremacist White Nest lest he ology that appears to They did the El Paso shooter, although I think not the Ohio she re, but also several other killings. I mean dating back to the idea that the church shooting it
South Carolina years ago, but I think it is coming into view for people that this has become a pattern within illogical, inflection, and so element of copycat that this is now a prescribed formula that person Roddy into a certain worldview. Might look at some of these. Other killings and say to themselves, like these guys were, were on the right track in some sense, just as like islamist terrorism at a certain point became a. Became a thing right that you didn't. You don't need to be part of, like a secret cell, to know that this is something that people are doing and what the general theory of it was, and I think I'm starting see more people saying that we should think about white wine most violence in that kind of main- and I know Jane you, ve been
been coming. This allow rang a lot so the shooting at El Paso, which so far up in the deaths of twenty two people, I'm going to reference that there was a manifesto posted by the shooter. I think one of the most important things on river talking about terrorist manifesto is that they are not like diaries. These are not the inner workings of the person who wrote it. This isn't shared with the intention of spreading it. One of the top points you makes is that I agree with the pressures shooter and his manifesto, so there's kind of this circulating manifesto actually goes back to the twenty eleven terrorist attacks in Norway, buy a terrorist there, who is doing so after and then published a very long manifesto, which was I speak. If I remember correctly, it was many hundreds of pages, but it was all focused on Anti immigration and white nationalism. So I think it's important, while putting the manifesto in context to realize that manifestos are written by terrorists and terrorists are big old liars.
This general manifesto, which is very lake, it is not enough. It is intended for its audience to be able to read the yes of sincerity in irony in it, but also to be written with enough like ambiguity right that it can be. No, there are things like. Oh people are going to blow this on operating on the president or particular presidential candidates, and, like I want to distance myself from that. Unlike you can just see those things necessarily It is intended to be written in a way that there is a little bit of plausible deniability for anyone who expresses agreement with some of the sentiments and their right exactly, and I think that it's it's gotten a fair amount of attention, and I think I don't wanna talk too much about the manifesto, but at some of the points that it raises that, I think, are indicative of what White National, Some is so big kind of proverbial my proverbial gears, but not too much so is when people combine the concept of white supremacy with the concept of white nationalism, white nationalism, a a subset of white supremacist ideology. White supremacy is basically the idea that White paper
are superior to nine white people. Why nationalism is a subset of that concept, which basically kind of takes wait, supremacy to a specific societal end point, which is to argue that ok, if we allow non white people and white people to mix in any sort of way and a lot of times, they do mean you. One of the points of the manifesto was this guy railing against race, mixing which is a term that one always you know when uses the term race mixing good things are always coming anyway, I imagine that the world is a pie and each racial group can only consume pieces of the pie. They cannot add to the pie. They cannot.
Leave the pie alone. There are over there it's a zero sum game among racial groups in the eyes of white nationalists and save you. It is ok. There are actual terms phrases like Africa for Africans like this, I did every other race has and I'm using airports has their own space. Why dont white people have their own space, and so, since the late nature, sixties, early nineteen, seventy from white nationals ideology She spread as a subset of white supremacy, not, coincidentally, immediately after the fall of colonialism, meaning the first time that it would have been like coherent to say black people have Africa right exactly, and so you, you started hearing some specific white nationalist making this plan d like well, we could have the Pacific Northwest and their recent they caught the. I believe it's the northwestern parent, if it could be getting that wrong. But this idea, They could turn the Pacific Northwest, which its worth noting the organ was founded in all wait state. It was written into the organ constitution, but that could be an all white enclave and that's
whenever people are like wire there, the white nationalist encampments, Idaho, that's why? But I think it's it's worth noting that white nationalist ideology is about the creation focus on the creation of s no states and doing so via either passive or active ethnic cleansing, so run away many questions about the scribe. Isn't it Think back with my like history that I live through half I remember this is having been a big deal in the ninety. Oh yes, but back then we did not have this kind of spray shoot her. Ah, what we had was it was. It was called militia right away, the idea was it. There were kind of white, separatist sort of grew sweat and they would be, in rural areas, frequently as you said in the northwest out or or the MID west linking them,
Does that mean we was interestingly different from light the complex clan which happened in places where there were a lot of black people, This was more like people in fairly wide area right it further withdrawing yes and casting off the legitimacy of the. U S, government right, because they get you there are certain terms, are used among these groups. And among them would be either. I think I've heard it as both scientist organised and scientists occupied, but Zogg sign
organised government or zionist occupied government. There did the federal government you. It is interesting how white nationalism, you'll I've argued before the Anti Semitism in some ways the conspiracy theory, a white nationalism is very much a part of a conspiratorial mindset and you see that with kind of the founding documents of these ideologies- and they include the Turner, diaries and other kind of books- poorly, very poorly written books, but like a lot of propaganda about helping the government is trying to curtail the birth rates of white people and the government is controlled Jews who are trying to start you're trying to prevent white people from giving birth through whatever means movies, birth control. Any other thing that they could think of by one of the things that Spain concerning and I've been talking to, a bunch of domestic counterterrorism people over the last couple of days is after the Oklahoma City bombing, which was the worst domestic terrorism attack in. U S history, and it is interesting to me how,
Oklahoma city for me was very formative experience it took you I was I had. I would have turned seven that year and I remembered seeing the pictures in the newspapers and being very afraid, but after that the FBI basically went really hard after militia groups? And this is this- is a long running process. If you watch the terrific frontline document in Oklahoma City, you see that Oklahoma City dwellers impart inspired by aid, Timothy Mcveigh, seeing what happened to the branch dvd encamped compound, awake, o Texas, and also to what took place at a white nationals. Com Ruby Ridge, which it believes in Idaho. Also that was my question after Oklahoma City, I mean was the militia movement sort of like dismantled. Let me set out stopped you're, not about yes and especially because financially they had a lot of issues and one of the most famous cases that other sat there in poverty Lawson or get involved had to do with basically breaking the back of area nations and taking down some of these militias. Because vice
bring them into the ground essentially about. Then you, after nine eleven, you see this massive shift away from concerns about domestic terrorism. Domestic terrorism is defined under the both the law and the Patriot ACT, which is also the law. It is just is a definition. It is not a thing it isn't. There is no such crime as the crime of domestic terrorism. If you commit a terrorist act, you will be charged with murder links, or in this case or with gun crimes. For example, let's say that if you wanted to help ISIS,
american citizen you could be charged with helping ISIS. You cannot be charged with helping the clan or atom boffin or any of those domestic white nationalist groups. You could possibly be charged with attempting like move guns across state lines, but that's about it. But how do you know how the Department of Justice in the F b I have viewed domestic terrorism and how much funding has been behind pursuing domestic terrorism has our concern, as has the fact that the EU terrorist groups have figured out around the world. Lone wolf attacks are far more difficult to stop. Then the kind of militia based effort that we saw and you even with your committee bombing, that indeed there was a group, a small group of people that was Timothy Mcveigh and Terry Nicholls attempt you using a truck and fertilizer, develop a building that obviously with a devastating attack, but that's also
thing. That's relative! That's easier for someone! You! If you observe someone kept buying a lot of fertilizer, that's going to be more suspicious, then for a lot of people taking guns they already legally out. I think any El Paso shooting begins illegally obtained Ray. I think that the other about a glimmer city, those like it simultaneously, the last of the night these militia movement and the first in the kind of lineage that leaves us to today right because on April 20th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, which, like was you, know deliberately chosen, is Hitler's birthday, yeah you have the Columbine shooting in which the shutters were explicitly inspired by Timothy Fanny, Oklahoma, city bombing or trying to outdo him, and that in turn, his kind of become the or text there you know the enormous shooter use that has also been cited: Atlanta and innovation to being cited ass kind of the oars school shooting. As we can come to understand it. You know in the last kind of twenty
here is where the initial media narrative was very much about like. Oh, this is the cost of social isolation. Spain and video games and bullying Merrily live other things that I argued that honestly, like didn't seem as obviously like punts at the time. You know you kind of it seemed like the Hitler worship was an epoch phenomenon of the deep recession. Social alienations. Whereas now I think it's easier to look back on it and say: well, it's not a coincidence that it is so often a thing that people like that white nationalism is so often anything that disaffected young men are turning to. But I do know that kind of problem it has as the idea of the lone Wolf cause. What we're seeing right now is like people who are alone right. You are engaged in online communities with other people, some of whom will never do any violent, some of whom are lifting up the violent acts of others is ambulatory and lake at what point d, say, even though some one has not lake you Knowed been
eating and plodding with other people to buy a bunch of fertilizer that the lone Wolf is an understatement of what's happening here. That what's happening is that of I'll admit of a loosely connected group of people around an ideology I mean I do think the sort of forgetting around the combine killing is interesting and important. I mean, I think you know this I don't know you know an audience how old people are what which, but they remember, but like this shooting happened, it was a huge national story was that it was a bigger news story. Then sandy or any of the more recent ones, because we didn't have the press and we do not move on nearly as quickly from it, and it was just like really extended social dialogue. I was in high school the times. I was very much like that. The object of this and like there was a look of common interests hold on the ban. Marilyn Manson went on
phenomenon of wearing trench cut the entire trench coat mafia thing. If you watched any sort of like I remember, I would get before school, which good morning, America and all people talked about with male immense and the trench mafia and their two things on that one. The Columbine shooters were not fans. Where limits and leading to the act. Brien warn of the lead singer, rail, immense into pen, a response, a rolling stone saying like this is not my fault. They did not like my music, and I think that one of the things looking back also is talking about video Aims, are museum whore. How very sad these poor, white kids were, and now looking I can really like. Oh, these kids were ass These were murderous hope, it was suggested that we so much was dissect right and like, like this trench coats thing yet a huge obsession, unlike some of my friends and I, we war trench coats, ironically of after this crate,
one hundred percent debt. Of course you that and the fact that they like subscribed to a white nationals any ology just like wasn't it the disks. To this end I was reminded of this because, like also this weekend, to see once upon a time in Hollywood which relate sort of tangentially, two demands and family murder is which the it's like left out of the movie, that the purpose of that was supposed beat a spark of re swore it in the United States Melick. What kind of sense that ever made like? I have no idea why, beneath its innocence, another example of lake you couldn't talk about nine eleven and, like just like, forget to mention, like the concept
unlike organised political Islam, make it he holiday and violence and its links to other episodes and just be like? What's up with those guys right like like in its true with anything that happens like it, requires a somewhat odd personal psychology to undertake any of these things. I think, but we have in America like developed a real track record sort of leaving this out and you know, I have to say that you put it back in and if not totally obvious to me what that gets you like At a national review editorial yesterday that I felt was what thoughtful of I like did. I had resigned ready I'm gonna buy, but actually was good and they were look like. We need to take this really like seriously Minos as a problem that the funding society And it was only you know, this is like a lot better than that. I've honey was up
Kennedy, and I was so like ok, but by what is that amount to exactly because I feel like what happened after nine. Eleven in the United States was mostly a historic of reaction, like there's a certain amount of like. I think on omar- was like struggling to make this point that, like Why is there this cast of suspicion over Muslims, for their association with a small vi friends when we don't treat like all again: white men as presumptive Lee Mass murderers and, like that's a good point too, but like act. Treating all young white man is presumptive. We mass murderers and it would not be right. He had been a good response than anything something that kind of does help solve this. Even if it, I think, makes out some other things. A little harder is lake, not all violence committed by people with the same ideology is it ideological violence persists
Not all of it is certainly not all of it is terrorism per se, and we ve seen over the last couple of days a little bit of interest in like people looking into the social media pro of the Dayton Shooter and saying. Ok, he supported Elizabeth WAR in the presidential primary. He had a pro anti find anti cop postings and in a folks and then and then the kind of the folks primarily feminist, on the left going. This man had a history of in a late, really terrible horrible
this, is against women was a member of a porno grind band, which is yet honour that I only discovered in the last day and haven't wasn't any time. The number of people were like its ironic and, unlike as we ve learned with ironic everything else, something one hour be an ironic. Yes, you know that he was expended from school for having a rape list and looked at all that gone okay, so this isn't a political. This is an act of. This has been active, massage nest, equivalence- and I know that the personal is political has particular meanings, especially in feminism, but there is a big difference between someone who goes on a spree killing having written a manner ass, though that makes very clear, like Dylan Roof in a wanted to spark a race or in an analogous, have not identical The way to the way the trials Mathematics Margaret Ovary, swore this shooting. Passer was an attempt to lake, get other people to rise up and that obviously different from someone who is exe. A thing, an ideology and isn't necessarily trying to pointed at a third party, and I think this is where the classical definition of terrorism gets really helpful.
Right. Not all mass violence is terrorism and it's a good idea to disaggregate those two terms, but if you're doing something, because you want brown people to stop coming into the United States and Europe or because you want the american people to take a stand against brown people coming to the United States, that's pretty classically lake, aiming at at a second party aiming violence at a second party, so that a third party will do some electorate. Let listing a breakdown cause. I I want to. I want to break down this discussion of like the relationship between means. Couple we live with a lot of noise between the pings, the dings, the emails labelled urgent. That aren't really that urgent, it's hard to cut through the static zero when on the things that really matter just like, we can train our bodies to be better running faster, lifting her here we can train our minds to stay focused to all the noise. We live with step, one download head space its basis and have loaded with guiding meditations designed offer a daily dose mindfulness concessions for every situation like a three minute s away
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like what is the theory wide, because you had with nine eleven and Osama Bin Laden, at least as I understand it, the idea was to try to draw the United States into an escalating conflict with the islamic world that was going to get a larger share of the world's Muslims, essentially, on AL caters side, by did it. The goal was to sort of produce a cycle of violence and polarisation. That was that was going to take her Cato from a relatively small group of people into a kind of a mass move right and if I think back to this sort of classical anarchists from that the early twentieth century right they they similarly had this concept.
They were going to assassinate world leaders, which is gonna, make world leaders very, very frightened, and then they were going to clamp down on in a way that would expose. It would take the mask off the sort of myths of classical liberal society and inspire proletariat to see the need for revolution right. So those are like you know, I'll cater. Unlike early twentieth century anarchists, like the very different, but actually have the same. The same theory of the case here right, which is like we are weak. We cannot actually undermine these structures, we don't have enough followers and we are going to try to provoke a backlash that gains as more support right. Unlike its, therefore, I think important and policy response to those guns. Things too like actually not do it right to like now
go say. Like start a global network of secret torture prisons right like invading medium sized countries, unlike dubious spacey trade, we have yet to him a large and fake vaccination campaign to collective into DNA. That right, you have to ride. To maintain some level of like social com, big, it's hard, it's hard to be like well we're gonna, just like brush off thousands of people being murder right but, like you have to try to like keep your shit together, society and that's what I worry about when I see this kind of discourse of like it's time to take the white direct problem seriously because like it seems to me that racism does a lot of tangible harm in american law
as a pretty bra wide social phenomenon, but a handful of spree killers will not good or not like actually capable of like shaking arrogant society to without foundation, and I'm really worry about. Eighty like real organizing american life, around some kind of like comprehensive surveillance of people's social media profile rise. So if we like see like problematic facebook posts, you now go on. Some FBI Watch list and people are falling around. That, like it, would be great too, like exterminate racial prejudice or something but like
that was really going to happen. If we decide you know it's like cortical time to take domestic terrorism seriously. So it's it's interesting because I think the first thing is that historically domestic terrorism, how the FBI and rich lorry wrote a piece for natural view that I'm working on a peace candidates, kind of response, Jonah sense, but he went a piece about how the F b I broke, the clan elite. Nineteen sixty is making Seventys, which is sort of true and us.
Say what the F b I did then was just fill the clan with informants like their yo. Their own famous quotes about, like you, gotta meeting with nine clansmen and six were FBI informal, but also the bypass yet also the black Panthers, also pretty much any group that was viewed to be kind of counter to american norms, and I know it's part of common tell pro and I think one of the things that was worth noting is not that the FBI was not your breaking down the clan because they thought that J Edgar Hoover thought the clan was like the most evil entity in the world. They were doing so because the clan made the United States look bad. So, for instance, I remember when I was taking classes. Unlike Maoist China, there is an english lesson that was used in schools and eliminating succeeds in China. That was basically like Jimmy as a black boy in America. Jimmy doesn't have everything that he should have like. Jimmy's not allowed to go to the school
and so basically of racial separation or racial segregation made the United States look bad in the during the cold war, and so in response to the FBI often used when going after clansmen or a kind of these. Far in the American Nazi Party, which it took very seriously right away and look one thousand nine hundred and sixty five around this formation was busy sending postcards to Klansman being like every this neighborhood knows you're in the clan and everybody thinks that's lame and no one likes you go. You can go back and read these postcard since one of liquor, famous ones like someone's. Looking up your hood just to be like everyone knows this, and it's embarrassing, a local to be in the clan. The issue now is that attempting to disrupt the white nationalist circles by arguing that being a white nationalist or racist, embarrassing is gonna, be a slightly tougher so in our particular time areas but I'd also slinging, is socially isolating someone and therefore making them feel like the only people who understand them.
Fellow eight national right? Finally, and I would also say that the F b I spent asked a bunch of times that criminal justice in general, most recently by a TED crews about Anti FA, which TED Crews wrote a letter to the Department of Justice asking anti fraud to be described as I am domestic terrorist organization wishes us a thing that they do not differ, but one of the biggest points the primitive justice keeps making is we do not? Yet we do not police ideology, which is not historically true. They have absolutely policed ideology all over the place, for they pleased Fred, Hamptons ideology to his death was so, but it is. The idea is going to your point that at a certain point it is not illegal to be a white nationalist. It's not illegal to be a racist, and if you want to post white nationalist screens on a platform that will permit you to do so, you are fully allowed to do so and trying to figure out you're one of the reasons why there's mental our conversation about attempting to bug ban eight chapters that thing,
That is, that the FBI and other entities use h and basically observe these groups. In fact, one of the first postings after the manifesto was posted was hello FBI because they know that there are there, and so I think that there is a concern of one in order to go after Dwight Nationalists in the same way that they didn't like night tints in the next. Six is really can seventies would involve the breakdown of civil rights for a lot of people, but also the p, but who are being observed are fully aware there being observed and they don't really care. So the direction that actually thought that was going
like a little more elementary, which was at lake in the absence of kind of the applicability of this specifically crackdown theory of change, making any sense. What is the theory of change your right, like what is this do drive from Dallas to El Paso and Gun a bunch of people down in a walmart? You know like, what's what's the kind of step, to step three step for their and kind of separately from the question of lake? What role does the President's or someone anyone else's rhetoric having all this like what is, if you're trying to think about you know, let's not provoke the backlash. What is the thing you don't do in order to give them what they want so historically and it's interesting because one of the things about white nationalist rhetoric is that, while the mediums by it
it is spread change. What the actual rhetoric is does not change. The first thing is at is for many of the people who take on violent actions through white nationalism. It is an inherently and nihilistic viewpoint. The shooter at El Paso did not intend to survive. That was not the point and note, apparently, according to the federal authorities, has been very willing to talk because I get, he did not think he would survive in. This is going to be in a sense of suicide note and your that's denigrated and some of the circles that he was trafficking in to survive this kind of thing, but also, if you go back to the Turner Diaries, the idea was that there'd be this ideal. Terror
group in the book is called the order which actually resulted in the formation of the actual terrorist group, the order which was linked with a number of murders in the Pacific Northwest and the murder of a jewish radio host Alan buried in eighteen. Eighty for everyone involved, as now either dead or in prison by their very their theo. There'd, be all of these violent actions and government repression on the basis of those violations with then spur backlash everywhere to go to the order. The order would eliminate all
non white people from the United States and then globally eliminate all non white people from the earth and so that look, I'm quite serious act. That is basically where the end of the tunnel diaries is. Is it they ethnically cleansed the earth? But I think that, in the terms of the actual next steps, the idea is that a terrorist action that they believe that most Americans would agree with. I think that there is a sense among White national set. This is a sentiment that most white people have and the people with the white people who don't have a race traders or they are linked to jewish interests or globalism. More generally, and did they think doing this, and then the ultimate government backlash will drive more white people to their cause, but this Edwards, like I don't know, I don't feel stupid, doing like tactical criticism of the murderers, but
this will obviously a lot of discussion among progressive about. I think the obvious parallels between the rhetorical tropes in this manifesto ending rhetorical tropes in the immigration discourse from mainstream republican Party and conservative movement, and so some of is like hey, you guys are egging on his violence, but then another part of it is like. Why are you massacre people in the Walmart. Exactly unlike some of these causes like there is a major political movement in the United States of America dedicated cutting down on the volume of immigration to the United States. That movement currently controls the presidency. It controls the U S Senate, but it does not control the hat, representatives, and it seems like what you need is to like knock on some doors in the suburbs of Atlanta. Unlike win the election and
a pass, the whatever act that you know a couple weeks before this right. The the discourse in the media was all bout, the national conservatism gathering that happened here in DC the Woods Carlton, where a bunch of people, politicians, thing tankers is rarely right. Wingers, you know all had a kind of party together to talk about how like immigration restriction, is really good. All the centrist, people, the never trump columnists and everybody would doing, takes about her Democrats were like veering too far toward open borders like this is like a lot of me, in stream political momentum behind the idea that the United States should stop this influx of immigrants from the third world and like they have one, the argument, but it's not like outside the Overton Window or like you- need to do this stuff and if anything like it's, it's clearly reproductive rights are now you have Trump doing his like foot.
Again teleprompter speed, whereas I got through the guy's. Racism is bad You know you have like national review doing. These it Orioles like distancing themselves from all this. So it's like. I don't know look I mean, of course, like murderers. Don't make sense, but, like you really doesn't make sense. To me, I mean actually, when you play That way, it does make a little more sense to me, because you got a thing about this is invasion, is a Marshall term for a reason right, there are not any rules they are. These are people who are constructed is not caring about and any of your laws. Why should you use the political system to tried it like? Why should you play by the rules if the other side isn't and if the other side is engaging in a or against you. I only have one and no end of where a lake, what responsibility does Donald Trump and some elements of the concern
movement play for using invasion metaphors when referring to unauthorized immigration come in, like I really don't want to say all metaphors or dangerous, because someone might take them literally, but I think that the answer I have seen to how it is acceptable to use terms invasion and then not expect, people to take them literally, haven't really cut it. For me, I, like it, I haven't Seen anybody go. You know why now that I understand that there are people who think I literally mean you should go to the border with your gun and shoot people. I am going to step that back and I think that its not unreasonable. To ask for that. Given that the when you're portraying the clash of civilizations narrative people are we you want to resolve that by Non Marshall me. I also think if you are in politics, you want to use easily understood terminology to get people to do something. That is not inherently easy to understand.
You want to be able to say there is an invasion, and the way we deal with it is that you need to vote for Republicans in the mid term elections. I vote for Republicans in the presidential election and then people are confused. Why people respond to
YO invasion rhetoric with shootings. There's been a lot of conversation about conservatives about like this kind of language and left and the Steve's police shooting a couple of years ago, which that you, the shooter in that case, was really in true Bernie Sanders have Bernie Sanders responded like no. I meant that we need to do this with politics and love, but I think that its view of politics is extraordinarily boring and that's the way it should be. Politics should be something of which we are you having these back and forth over about six inches of policy, but we don't have that kind of politics. We have your kind of the globalization of politics in which you every election is the flight. Ninety three election: I was paying attention to twitter this past weekend, and I knows yet it was. It was a poor idea, but you noticed the same exact type of conspiracy, theorizing, going on about the El Paso shooting that took place during pretty much every shooting beforehand, and the thing I thought was interesting was it was conspiracy.
Rising about how the government wants to take your guns by people who voted for the government. That would help us etiquette in this instance take their guns, and so I think it's interesting how much the theory of politics in which you tell people like there's an invasion, or this is a disaster, or this is a crisis and the way that we add we expect people to respond is within the thin six inches of policy that we think we're talking, and I were very surprised when they go outside that six inches of policy, but I mean I think it's worth saying, like I dont think when Trump talks about an invasion like. I do think that that is a matter for like, from literally like deployed the military, to counter the invasion and he invoked alot of emergency powers that derive from cold war era. National secure
statutes to re purpose funds and do the Wall Bill, nay, and then there's the joking, not joking, referring lines at rallies about how the military and allowed to do things in Lebanon specified what those things are which actually gets back to the beginning, like the slippery nested ensues when you have things that can be read ironically, but can also be read, sincerely wait? So I mean I just think that there is a thing that does happen in politics. Is p, use a lot of overheated rhetoric and metaphors did then, when somebody goes and takes them literally, you stepped back in your leg, woah. Well, that's not what I meant, but, like you know, you deploy the military to block and invasion like that's right. That's on a metaphor right, at any rate, as you pointed like long ago. Dara right, like theirs, is long running like discourse in the policy community, about immigrants and wages and stuff but tromp has always been incredibly focus on the last threat of physical framed. For me,
its again like in a non metaphorical way. No, you could say. As a metaphor, these immigrants are coming here in their bleeding the country dry, Babo, Bob, and really data talking about economics but like trompe saying, like quite literally emigrants coming here: ass, the border to Kelly and creating murder and legally wanting to create like an ice like Sub department where people gonna report, immigrant sky, they have created it, it's just that it's been kind of but, although I think it is under the age has not ice on case. Anyone think when you don't want me, but I would just like it's that aspect of it is like incredibly sincere. As far as I can tell him, I am not part of a rhetorical or a metaphor and at the same time like as Trump is like, I think, like not kidding and not making a metaphor he's also very clearly. I think like not calling for, like loan wolves to shoot up Walmart slug. He is quite clear on what it is he's calling for, and I think it's kind of horrifying. What is that
referring in that same way. Right I mean I'm not sure that he is all that clear. Re lake I really don't want to get into what Donald Trump things when he saying something, because I don't think any of us has enough insight into the psychology of Donald Trump but Lake, it does mean to me that if you're saying that this is a literal invasion, if you could play the military, if you joked about how the military can't shoot people, it's not that unreasonable. For someone to listen to all and say: ok, he wants his base to finish the job like. I don't think that that's necessarily did you know, anyone in the White House is going great we're. You know we are going to like draw a dotted arrow to this point, and I hope that they follow us like we're going to incentivize mass violence, I think that it's probably an underdeveloped fury of politics, because I think that a lot of people who
I really believe in something being to being an existential crisis. Don't necessarily endorse, Reich, aren't willing to themselves kind of engage in, be extremism. It would take to get there like a lot of people who are too far left for the ds. Ay aren't like training in socialist militia So it's not like it's not that surprising that the president, who is, after all, fundamentally LULU information voter, would not noticing
leave like thought out the consequences of that, but I don't necessarily think that the way the Donald Trump talks about things which, like the other friend here, is something that benzene, sorrow and of an BC was resurfacing, a peace that he wrote in full of twenty. Sixteen about how what really distinguished then candidate, trumps rhetoric was an indifference between judicial and extra judicial violence right. This is like going back to be jokes, about protesters getting beaten up, rallies that ratifying this. It's a distinct being visa vii of a republican candidates who are very begun support the troops, but you don't necessarily fetish eyes like TAT. This and somebody needing to stop them, and so prompt in particular may have lent himself to this particular reading or misreading deliberately. Otherwise, in a way that I think.
Make a little bit of internal sense. If you really believe that your being invaded and like you know, the deep state is preventing the military from doing what's needed right. I think, with that we should probably go to the white paper. Let's do it, People often ask me of prosecuting the mob is like the movies well, There is violence he cracks disguised over their head and pop. Just like a melancholy. There are heads, so wasn't just permission to take em apple permission to take out his own Natalie but after taking down over one hundred mobsters, I can tell you this the The thing is much more interesting barely holding former mob prosecutor and host of the new podcast up against a mom up against the MOB the bail on the world's most secretive criminal organization, La Cosa Nostra we'll talk to profit.
Peters, former mobsters, an undercover agents and Ike Hollywood, all these stories are true new episodes dry. Every Wednesday starting September. Eighth, listen and follow up Hence the Bob on Apple Podcast, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. The cat is had cast from New York magazine, but it's it's more than that, its thirty minutes a week where we really wrestle with ourselves we're talking societal expectations. Race Sex career ambitions and our bodies. I just spend our time on Instagram looking at health at any size, nutritionist, talks and unified I've I'm a factor on the internet. They just come to me baby. The algorithm we're here
Conversations you'd only have with your most trusted friend, so Gabby. What were the most painful memories I'm just regular, listen to the cut on Spotify Apple or your favorite podcast app or it. So this week's white paper is an article recently published in the Journal of Criminology in public policy by Marie let set off Hashemi, Jason, gravel and Andrew VP crystals and apologies to all Ya'Ll. If I buttered your names on network exposure and excessive use of force investigating the social transmission of police misconduct, and so what this paper does is basically use and fancy network theory to establish something that you ve seen as a troop. If you ve seen any gritty caught me
or a tv show of the last twenty years, which is the principle that, like a sum, cops, are dirty and go too hard on the people. Their police, saying to you, know, make a pointer just because they can and be more importantly, for this that they do so when exposed to other police messrs engaging in that kind of wrong doing random get away with it, so it takes a sample of complaints filed against Chicago pops over a period of several years and looks, for people who had more than one complaint filed against them, whether in our use of force, complaints and also kind of other kinds of misconduct, bribery or that kind of thing, and looks at who is named in that complaint and, whether being named in a use of force complaint as kind of a co complainant and having more other people or in that complaint like having aid,
percent of the cops and that complain having been named in previous complaints, freeze, a force, for example, whether that is more likely to make that other twenty percent the near the other, and who had not previously been named, engage in use of force in the future may finally, moderate, but lake pretty well defined relationship that moderately positive, like you. If you increase the number of people who are with you who have been accused of use of force by thirty four percent, you, like twenty five percent increase in your likelihood in future by its it's less novel in terms of its actual finding than it is in the way that its thinking about police misconduct as deviance as something that is transmitted just as extra police from ITALY, if Europe is transmitted by learning from other people and finding from there the kind of bounds of what you can get away with any of the broader society, or in this case the the sub culture of policing you, and I think it is worthwhile of thinking about police and law enforcement in general as eight like a subculture with
own culture and its very own. How D marketed rules are wrong and write anything. That's all that's really worth getting into, especially of how what constitutes wrong and rate gets kind of shaped and shifted in response to your either their superiors or external observers. It's interesting just sort of like stepped back. You know going back to the conversation we're having earlier about by nationalism like, should we take this more seriously that this, like a lot of them discourse about you, know, police involvement in racism and- from his conduct, has been very prominent over the past several years from from the left, and you know another way of thinking about this- that I think is a little bit implicit in the methods of this paper. Is that, like you, just have
people write and there in an organization, and they might do things that are bad, and if people who do that stuff like continued, be around and prosper in like rubs off on other people right at like a little bit autonomously from like bigger picture questions about ideology and anything else that matter like organizational structure like there's a fairly funny by the standards of academic papers, line in here like making false arrests, not something taught in police Academy, wait? Wait I mean exactly that that you know it's like. There are a lot of police officers in the United States of America. This stuff going on? It is a violent job right like having violent confrontations with suspects, like is in fact part of the job.
Like it's a thing that happens is really a range of activity around all that we have known for a long time like long before, like the black lives matter just course like corruption in police departments, there's a lot of people than sister, because I think that that the issue here you know the godfather dynamically these these issues. Just like been with us for a long time. How do you manage a large force of people whose job is to interact with criminals constantly I am also like you want them to interact in a particular appropriate set of ways, but its challenging to monitor them right leg. It's like the whole nature it is like a legitimately hard problem, and I think that some of this over the networks they give goes to show where is it what what are you gonna do? Are you going to purge the entire Chicago police Department? Unlike then, who's gonna do the police ray. I mean
one of the previous studies cited in here is a study that shows that officers who generally believe that intro to part mental business was able to fit handled fairly things like promotions and raises, and that kind of thing we're less likely to engage in the kinds of things that you give the kind of what they call a noble cause: corruption like oh, I have to go tough on this suspect, as you know, that's what it's gonna take to get him to follow the law, these people to have never spent for any job done. Do I pray you know in the in actually same way that like out please, if the military coup even allowed to shoot people and they need to be shot and I'll shoot them by that they were slightly to engage in that were as people who are more frustrated were more likely to engage a noble cause correction. It's a little bit hard like tease out the causal relationship there to be fair, but it does raise the unintentionally funny. Parallel that what you would
actually have is. If you had informants for internal affairs in the same kind of prevalence, they had informants for the F B. I will save you had like people who were so invested in the many of the police department that they were willing to tell on their colleagues all the time. Then in theory you might have in your way of reading them out, and you know coming up with people who are more into it. But you know that's kind of that gets into much bigger issues of lake, the blue wall of silence, and that kind of thing that isn't necessarily addressed in this Her Airbus is always hovering at the end. When we talk about like this as a you know, yes, people are individuals, but at the same time there does appear to be a population people who will not themselves engagements behaviour. Who will protect opportunities, but also I mean you know, I'd Jane was talking about you know. Fbi's very, have use of like infiltrators to direct wake up organization,
and so like. This is something you could do right. If you were like incredibly serious about rooting out misconduct and big city, police departments is like an external agency, could try to infiltrate like undercover officers whose job was till. I come monitor these things and then betray their fellow officers but part of the purpose of flooding. Both leftist groups- em white supremacist groups in the sixties, with infiltrate informants right part. The goal was to like disrupt specific parts but part of the goal, which is to demoralize everybody. Everyone, vat collapse. Grass right, I feel like that, that isn't good to attempt within People want the Chicago Police Department to collapse. Rightly good people, don't, if you take me seriously you see what sounds behaviour as a problem, because it makes it hard to identify perpetrators. But these spirit of like solidarity.
And like we enjoy working with our fellow officers, and we have like team spirit and were doings. Thing together and not like constantly thinking we're gonna, be betrayed like that's good, it's it's hard to imagine an effective police force that was like fire of everybody thinking the next sky was gonna drop. A dime rang with that feel free to drive I'm on any white paper related misconduct, you see or anything else. We are don't don't actually drop times on other members. The Facebook group, unless you're complaining to our moderator, that's not All infuriating. Do the moderator? That's fine, but we know all too well and Emily join the Facebook group yet ass. He lay there it's out there thanks. I wear their faces always to our producers have regard and the region return on fighting. The cut is applied cast from New York magazine, but it's
much more than that, its thirty minutes a week where we really wrestle with ourselves: we're talking societal expectations, race. Sex career ambitions and our bodies. I just spend our time on Instagram, looking at health at any size, nutritionist talks and unified I've. I'm a factor on the internet. They just come to me baby. The algorithm we're here, Conversations. You'd only have with your most trusted friend, so Gabby. What were the most painful memories, I'm just regular, listen to the cut on Spotify Apple or your favorite podcast, app
Transcript generated on 2021-09-10.