Libby Nelson and Dylan Matthews join Matt to talk about the global nationalist tide, forcing integration across class and ethnic lines, and research on gender and foreign policy dynamics.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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for website, I haven't opened it as if I'd have somewhere unrefined due for last winter effort. So let's, let's just do that. Allow welcome to another MRS Read's boxes of policy punk cast on the box media pod cast network Matthew
cs. I joined in the city of two special gas as Red and Sarah
our off at the second Box conversations conference. So I've got my colleagues Dylan, Matthews and Libby Nelson here with me,
We are in the middle of a crazy week of american domestic politics and policy news as Donald Trump Trust around out than ninety. The ninety seven days,
This presidency, so we're gonna, ignore that in in solid weeds fashion and delve into a topic that no one is discussing in his going nowhere in Congress, we're gonna look at a white paper about gender Monarchy and and war before. I wonder if I could do said this election that they played out in France
earlier this week, because I don't know politics, political dynamics had beginnings and more globalized, more internationalized, lately,
and we saw a real trend towards people looking at the breaks it vote in the UK and then Donald Trump selection and the United States, and then say,
Ok, populist nationalists are their surging everywhere and Marine LE pen
certainly seem to want to play up affinities wit without Trump and Donald Trump offered her a sort of Quasar endorsement in the presidential campaign, which was
a little odd and she got in second place France's a two round electoral system as if she finished in second place and will be in the run off, which is gonna be facing off against a manual mackrel. Who is like he's like a like a parody of a NEO liberal?
globalist figure. He literally he he worked in the financial industry. He was recruited into Francois. Lawns cabinet was a socialist president, but he was brought in as an independent centrist.
Economy, minister as economy Minister, he pushed through a couple NEO liberal reforms. I most notably made it easier for more french stores to be opened on the weekend than he quit the cabinet to launch an independent centrist campaign in an election raise in which there were a lot of pseudo pro russian views issued by a lot of candidates. He was the one who said: no, France needs to increase its defence spending, integrate more with NATO needs to stand for the European Union and the european idea. He was targeted by all the you know. Fake news kind of people are somehow like pet bay. Twitter Botz were now attacking him and all kinds of stuff, so he em he finish in first place and he is.
way ahead in that in the second round balls- and it looks like you know- I'm a triumph for the the unfashionable neoliberal level is yeah. No, I mean it's, it's also a good reminder of how dependent these things are and structure lake. Those are the top two finishers, but there were four candidates who all roughly got twenty percent of the vote and, like
just behind Marine Le Pen was France must be on the former serve conservative prime minister, who was in broad in this corruption scandal and then right after him was of melancholy, thus far left in submissive, France. I believe this is his movements name candidate and they all got like roughly the same share the votes and in like Sir scandinavian style, proportional representation system, they would have served roughly equivalent blocks in the parliament, but because of the lack of jungle, primary system that the prince uses to the two people who squeaked to the top, get to move forward and ends. I just because of the nature of how we interpret elections, people draw love, meaning from that
I think it is hard to overstate. I mean the twenty. Sixteen election here was crazy, an unprecedented the waterways, but this was also a very weird election. In France I mean you have neither of the two main political parties, the Socialists and the Republica made it to the full
around like I'd. I took a class on two elections ago that he doesn't have an election and Sarkozy one. I would have thought that would have been like someone
his whole, in interpreting the selection, it was in fact completely useless because over ten years, the political dynamics and these specific dynamics of this race and be weird scandals that are up did have changed, had changed things so much that it's basically to people from her
Is that have I dont think ever held the presidency now definitely have never held. The presidency are basic
looking to be in charge and they have almost no support in parliament.
Macro, has like invented a political party that never run candidates before
the national front, has been a long for a long time
and the her father was presidential candidate and sort of our national front is making a run at the presidency has been a story in France for a long time, but
They have their. What I think to members of parliament here, one of whom is her knees ray
it is a little bit strange ready you imagine. A third party presidential candidate in the United States are somehow race that became between two different third part,
candidates, but then you knew or had seen unclear that they would have any actual congressional support right. So it is a totally clear what this amounts to and in concrete terms, what does us who initially, because France tried really hard to prevent anything like this from happening so too,
because it has a semi presidential system. Where there's that lets explain it lets explain whether I might have rightly remarks I, so it serve a melting of the. U S, system where you have a legislature and then the president and European systems, where you just have a legislature in and the leader of the majority blocking legislature, becomes prime Minister and Embryos executive power. So France has both the president and the Prime Minister and
for a long time, it was possible because observe how legislative elections interacted with presidential elections for the head of government, the Prime minister to be a different party than the head of
state the president. So for one neuron, the socialist president had to deal with a shock, Chirac or conservative prime minister checks. Iraq, as president later had to deal with vanish us bar was a socialist prime minister, and this was served referred to as cohabitation sort of analogous to what Americans call divided.
Government cohabitation isn't wave at name right. It's generally only more confusing its way markings.
Using it sounds, I mean if it feels like a vague dig it from
social more as I
but, unlike Americans, french people were very upset with this the set up. They allowed nothing
get done, and though they change the count.
vision in the nineties to shrink that the term of the president, from seven years to five years to match up legislative elections with presidential elections are now legislative. Elections take place every five years, along with the presidential elections and right after the presidential elections, the idea being you'll have the presidential election, and then just people will vote for whatever party they voted for
President to give the president backing and allowed them to serve actually make policy, and that works. If you have a roughly two party system where either the gaullist conservative candidate or the socialist candidate wins the presidency and then their party which, as is well organised and can run up and a lot of fun districts can mobilise. But now you have to find less, neither of whom have a party with that kind of capability, neither of whom are like
Lee to get a majority. I think it was different when Sarkozy was president, but Ireland has a cabinet that is like a socialist led cabinet, but its itself a coalition,
in so it's become like another kind of a mash up of an american and more traditional european system,
why? Because its common in Germany or in Sweden or wherever that, whoever is the Prime minister, will be leading a multiparty type coalition. France has also come to be that way in terms of its prime minister ship, but the presidency is necessary
early indivisible and it creates a a certain amount of ambiguity as too like, but who is actually the chief figure in in the government right, and that would be exacerbated if you have a situation where you probably have macro as president in ecologically positioned in the center Polly, with a relatively weak parliamentary party behind him and said
and he is appointing either from the left. Either a centre left and centre right coalition cabinet of some kind,
and then is actually can be. That cabinet that gives sort of the flavour to what is the government actually bow in terms of the policy of a raven in those less power invested in the president to stop them from or passing stuff? That's like another settled,
our friends from the? U S system there, like the socialist Prime minister and lay nineties, adopted the thirty five hour working week over the objections of Iraq and in the conservative president
and so yeah like I don't. I don't know what policies will come out of that, but they might be rather different than wipe whenever Mccrone ran on
so I've been reading. I was there. I was reading this morning about the legislative elections and, as far as I can tell from Le Monde the basic as some
right. Now is nobody knows what's going to happen and we have to wait and see who wins the presidential election to have any idea. What's going to happen, which has also, I am exhausted, imagined
having a legislative action immediately after the presidential elections, I think I'm glad we don't do it that way,
cannot imagine a situation like this. I guess if Trump had been be third party candidate, that occasionally he seemed to be trying to be
and if we had seen a lot of trumpets Lake down ballot candidates, that would be the only acknowledge. What are we didn't and that that's kind of an interesting fact that has continued. It would be as if Clinton's
campaign had collapsed early and made it clear that Sanders was going to be the democratic nominee.
so Michael Bloomberg had hopped in and then the fact that,
where was gonna be in caused. Mitt Romney to also get in
Something like that right at me, I guess rejects, went up the backdrop of this way ever
People have not been following every Euro invested in turn of these weird scandal this or what it all began because the incumbent president, France, Ireland, Socialist, is eligible to run again, but he was hideously unpopular. So he decided to step aside and not run again. So then, in the socialists, primary his prime Minister Manuel Balls, was sort of. I guess like you- would call him the establishment candidate in there, but he lost too
a left wing guide and why I'm all who tried to sell himself as the french Bernie Sanders at, which is eight m position that is up for grabs. As far as I can tell, the american knowledge is that yes will then later the hard core communist became the french reason. I find these analogies all to be a little bit suspect, because all of these candidates are running on programmes in terms of the level of taxation in the generosity of the welfare state that are well to the left of Bernie Sanders is bought form.
Le Pen's platform. As to his left right laws. Platform was to his left. Leg macro is like this huge neoliberal sell out and like his big reactionary idea, is that all companies should be forced to engage
collective bargaining with their work for medicine, as opposed to right now in France that happens at the industry sector level. So obviously I get the sense in which, like
the centres and Emma was on the left, but the context is completely different right for a french politician to stand for a government guarantee of health insurance and heavily subsidized college tuition would not in any way like mark you out, like that's that's what the fashion
twond. That's what the communist lines is, what centrist once every ended
France is a very different countries, have different political reforms and social mores at an hour, but but but
more like transnational interest in these things, who got sort of mapped unto itself. So anyway, this leftwing, I won. The socialist nomination about macro, had also been a member of allowance cabinet, so overt
aim, he started to see more like the sort of de facto. So
list, can it more and more subtle bigwigs from the party were endorsing ham than on the re. They had a primary between the law, who one allies
pay, who, I guess, Herndon way ahead and oppose the world for Prime minister against. I get it started out with this, like very stacked list of
psychology ran the hearings, as I got my president ran again: wake up
and feel, all surprisingly wine and then was like hit by all kinds of scandals about his suits.
oh not just as you know it so much. I want an earlier. I wouldn't let this kind of issue that is so weird and suffering a lot of it was about what is called Unplastered Deef, which basically means
fictional jobs and is essentially that he kept putting members of his family on his payroll, which is a thing the people sort of do in France like this is not a weird scandal that he was the first one to ever. Have interest was very bad in
There were so many investigations,
that is. I recall there is this like bizarre day when he was supposed to repress conference about whether or not he was going to stay in and just like, more damning facts kept coming out. I think american politics has been so weary that I've been falling french politics slightly less than I used to, and I feel that I have missed some really great. The wooden healing publicly said: look if I'm under investigation for dislike buoyant
I won't step out the race, and then it was announced that yours under investigation and then he didn't
now. I think he can say he was going to address it and then he just state in an almost I mean he came pretty close became yeah. You came very close to two billion Lappin had he stepped aside. I mean this is parliament's interesting, we're talking about this time.
Meltdown of everything Non party candidates, but if he had actually stepped aside and you Bay had stepped in
The odds are like really guide that his replacement, Canada would one day
action. One feel ran on this we're platforms or he's like very per Russia. He wants, like austerity, like has not been proposed in the mainstream of french politics in a long time. She wants a big crackdown immigration, not as big as as Le Pen in the national front
but but a substantial one, and so he was just like a little out of the mainstream, very conservative candidate, and so all the poles of him against Mccrone showed mccrone beating him pretty handily not hinder we as against those are far right, get it, but the pre handily,
and you pay was like a centre
right est well, within the french mainstream and like very easily could have beaten, Mcgraw White Silk, so he had the ghost jobs and he was taking bribes. He was being hit by a bus
various scandals that kept almost forcing matter the race, but in the end he he Sir Soldier on- and I guess I guess, Donald Trump has Pavia taught people that they suggest for it.
head. Oh god, I don't even think that connection
I mean I know now that that shamelessness is also like not necessarily not feature in a neat feature. French politics either will yet but legal, lung click headed
farewell an office in Lake had whose, like mistress, move into the presidential palace at some point liked
it is and isn't allowed prince. Politics is, while we're clear learning
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We haven't arguments over the dynamics, though, that, like that are
universal them. He started in particular, like I M, stretching to imagine analogy for the glassy deep in the United States, like I guess, the longer term working in the White House. I don't know
the scale of theirs that she has a real yeah yeah things like ours, him like an employer, actual adverse all. I LE pen baited too, that the second round, which is nine insignificant, even though it looks like at this moment that she is going to get completely plastered and run over
in the final, like that, given how long the LE pen have been running for president unfriendly that that's still pretty noteworthy the
thing is this sort of continued
oh urban globally
not globalist divide that we saw what tromp, without with breaks that it showing up again in France, where you have a candidate of the educated, the cosmopolitan the people with friend results. Don't really tier out
education level, the way we do in the U S, but the poles were sort of broken down by professional status and basically mccrone with the candidate of be educated professionals in the semi, slightly less educated, but still the nurses teacher civil servants, like that level of Unita College degree to do this kind of work. Le Pen was that the candidate of people lower down on the Socio economic latter. There is this weird geographic divide were almost all of the West of France. What for
Chrome that used to France, which is more industrial or post industrial, unfair Lappin, even if there is not like a global network of nationalist, which is a really weird concept, think about
there. There are these dynamic. Didn't France, despite being very different, very different to the USA in a way that Britain, for example, is not these dynamic celsius,
playing out there, and I mean to me the common elements of the divide underscore the extent to which it's a mistake, to look too hard at space
civic economic issues. There are ways in which Brok Obama's policies like fell short of delivering for working class people, and there are also ways in which France, while lawns policies did- and there are probably ways in which Angela Merkel- I don't know as much about Germany, but you have the basic seem like city country divide, young old divide in enough different places were enough. Different stuff is going on and, like you can't say well, if only France Harry
Universal health care system. Then people wouldn't be upset about globalization and immigration because they do then I said about the immigrants being in their universe. It rely on Asia where it to me, the Trans national nature of the populace nationalist phenomenon argues for taking it at face value that you have a whole bunch of different countries that are experiencing substantial demographic change due to slow down of native birthrates rapid aging of the native born population influx of immigrants who are non white, often non Christian, and while I dont like participate in the backlash to those changes, its real change, it is a big
deal. There is probably a reason why it was not always like this, and it is to some extent like more reasonable that he will give credit for that. There would be a big backlash. Like one big change happens, it would be weird for it to be totally uncontroversial for, like France, to become a country that has a large persistent muslim minority in which people of arab descent are serving in the cabinet and being promoted first spots in the civil service and and so on and so forth, like that's really different from it was in the past and the backers too, that is about, but it's about, just as it is in the United States in the UK. So I think that basically cheer. I think there is something in France, the complicated a little that we just there is not to stay. I make the east. I would stress that in the east outlet tromp, where the old people who remember the way, things used to be
where the people lighting up behind this old people voted for fuel. I was actually shocked when I was. I was hoping that beach, a muslim charts and going through some polling data. I was shocked by how low LE pen's numbers were among the retired that that, just as not of what I was led to expect by what these dynamics have been another country's. So that's not to say you can't be in through
all to a real or mythical past. If you were younger, but it does a little bit complicate this narrative of the note. This was not the way it was when we were younger and we want it to go back to being put to belong, was also running as an anti immigrants, yet
nationalist candidate right I mean older. French people will have a more direct personal connection to like fijian forbore to and perhaps wisely shy away from voting for it like crypto, fascist parties, but like the french conservatives adopted the like anti immigrant to anti
campaign concept, it seems to me down. I know we were getting into of a white paper serve later in the show bits of one paper. The truly frame my thinking about this kind of stuff is theirs
paper by the sky, Bronco Milosevic's does a lot of stuff on global inequality. In answer, if the disparities between individuals at a global scale- and he had a paper called up from proletarian to migrants- is being the point that, like in the eating fortys and through Sixtys when Marx's writing, it really was true that across industrialized nations there was this class of proletarian who were roughly in the same state of things in some sort of a transnational,
organization of them against. Third, the ruling class made some sense, whereas now, like the main economic divide in the world, is betweens or people in poor countries who desperately want to get into Russia countries, given the massive economic benefits that migration offers them and the people
those rich countries, regardless of whether their rich or poor, when you start thinking of it. In those terms, it makes sense that you'd see this pattern across the rich world, since it serve an argument within a class. It's an argument within the the economic go eat from a global perspective, about how to deal with this inequality and whether whether to serve accommodated deserve analogous to help Bismarck and some other capitalists tried to ameliorate socialist tendencies by serve offering welfare programmes and the modern equivalent would be some unlike mccrone, arguing for openness towards immigration and openness to migrants, verses people looking to protect the class position and forestall this is kind of uprising way. I mean what complicates it is that I feel like
there's like it. I think a lot of people but want to have the take that, like this is the new access of politics around the world. Is
like our nationalism versus globalism, rather than on like traditional redistributive topics- and it's almost conceivable that, depending on how you read her platform, that, like mine LE pen, would
if a sub politics, but like in the United States or even in in England, the parties continue to have really big gap like super banal like what should the tax rate be, your kind of politics that dead you know confound would seem to be the aim
ocean, all drivers of a voter behaviour. These days, I don't know I've been and will be interesting to see if, if in America, the parties effort like
a line more with where their voters sort of heart seemed to be, but you see almost like
opposite of that. Do you agree to that birthing? Through your scheme for movements towards I live like, I was super significant that the trump ran on no cuts deserve scarcity and Medicare like in many other ways. You just adopted turf free market conservative dogma of climate thinker, but he really did moved the dialogue that every Eve written lie about this man, how significant that was in his support, and it is also significant and how you see the law
change that, like the pro european pro migrant laughed candidate, was been. Why I'm all she wanted a basic income and also to welcome my grants and he failed completely miserably like you got like six percent of the vote and now a shark whose, like a nationalist like he hates the EU, he's he's sympathetic to Russia. He doesn't talk about immigration at all. He, mostly just
to defend the welfare state and expand it like that was the guy who got the votes and similarly, in in the UK, like much to the chagrin of old Blair types. German Corbett, like just does not believe in the european project, has not been fighting breaks. It basis
we all ends in like it's, not the damage
it for us on the left in its it, certainly not the dominant force in the american left. It still the case that serve proponents of migration and proponents. Redistribution have formed us somewhat durable political coalition. In the United States, but
sir fractures and that along. Yet I think it is one thing in the: U S: it's a little bit different is the close identification of the left and with with anti racism, and that I think, is tangled up in the migration question
away that, for example, in France, where it is literally where the government cannot ask you about your race, those same dynamics, don't quite play out. They said
You know you can take around at the edges with it and other ways. They certainly are these dynamics there. But I wonder if that sort of one of the reasons that we have not seen that dynamic emerge here. Quite so much like you cannot try to be the candidate of the coming night majority
America and like at the same time be lake, and also we want you know we want to keep the immigrants out. I mean you, you can be, but that's it. That's a really really difficult. I hope to walk, and I just I can't imagine how that would work, and I think that makes sense will let that be the b b. The last word and pivot. I really want to talk about, is good classic weeds thing policy idea, big thinking not on the news, Dylan Matthews, a boxer com was
twitter machine that last week I think it was- and he was talking about national service.
Yeah, so on normally when I'm wrong on the internet, Matt doesn't ask me to explain myself
There was no ship over of about five aspect, but now we can try that that everyone nobody's going on the entered and listen to what many people around the internet. What I think I was probably romanian, my boy, what what is it not also has tackled this national service, so
you if you live in Washington DC or like work in the policies.
you will notice that
Usually man, usually in their forty or fifties, become very enthusiastic about the idea of setting up a programme where people do a year or two of compulsory
national service, either in the military or firms or of Amerika, courted to working in schools, may be some kind of service to the government for a few years. This is not turban, unheard of
in developed countries. Most european countries did this until relatively recently, I think only like six years ago, Germany got rid of their their conscription. South Korea does this Singapore. Does this it's pretty common feature of life of of faith, and I think there are a lot of attraction to thus having surf civic minded folks like the idea of incorporating surf sense of duty and country in young citizens, I think there's a nostalgia fur truth that the levelling effect of the drafting of serve widespread military service among men in the forties and fifty's, I think among anti war types, there's a specific interested military conscription as a way to build opposition to large scale, serve deployment of ground troops. Think that argument is become less potent now that we just do all our wars with drones.
But it's a widespread idea and TAT Kennedy was a big fan of expand national service Obama. Mccain both had soared national service planks and their away platform. David Brooks letting talked a lot about this. As a professor of late, when you re starting area that you justly David vexed at they David Exit, yeah yeah I'd, I don't need a sub tweet David verdicts anyway. I have like historically thought that this was a really bad idea for a few reasons. There's through the libertarian, like you shouldn't force people to
waiver, unless you have a pretty good reason for it, but my main objection was like. I think nationalism is an incredibly pernicious force in the world. I dont know for a fact that these programmes are helped build out of a sense of French Nasser Germany's
like driving support for the national front among the young. That would not shock me and in like I'm, really nervous about any national programme that builds that kind of sense of identification with the nation toward potentially nefarious ends. But I was at this conference in San Francisco
or how to design a universal basic income, and this is a topic ever in about a lot. I was on the wheels of a while ago to talk to you about that ending the hardest thing when you're thinking about any programme to increase the amount of money that the garment gives to poor people. You have to serve run up against this deserve Venus objection that pure really don't like their tax dollars going to people who they feel like. Don't deserve it and like this, something that goes back to us or the british poor laws like even in Henry the eights rain. They make distinctions between the deserving an undeserved in poorer, like alms men who had handouts. Church charity made these kinds of distinctions and is not just an american thing either. Like
Even in countries with more generous welfare states, their guaranteed income schemes make sure that you work or have some kind of work requirement in this a really big problem. If you're proposing a policy works, everyone gets money, no strings attached, Newark requirements. No, nothing
And so one idea this her came up in this conference and it was Chatham Hussar, also, cancer say who who brought it up, but was to serve Titus to national service. And so, instead of of having a compulsory system where, like by law, you have to serve the state for a year or two or else you go to jail, you would say to people you don't have to do as you. Dont have to to do your national services it, but if you do your entitled to a basic income payment for the rest of your life and to economic security, and so the idea is that this would solve the deserving this objection that people would not object to to giving a pension to people who have served their country. The way that the objective two introduction, all ye be I system, and that was attracted to me like that, like it's, not my idea, whirlpool.
He had rather just give people money, but I thought it was an interesting idea that turf tries to address this very real political problem with with try to expand redistribution. If you're anything like me, you know, sometimes you want a snack end. If, what's a land snack on his junk food, you gonna eat junk food, then it's it's not great
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There is like the little bit backward said that I remember you know what went when I was in in college. I read that has got was, but protecting soldiers and mothers about the origins of the American Welfare State and she's, making that this exact point about the deserving and an undeserving poor and that you know early class,
of american. Social welfare are like civil war veterans, should get pensions and then that the Republican Party stored sort of expanding that it goes from pensions for disabled soldiers to pensions, for all former soldiers and pensions for former soldiers and their widows, and so on and so forth, and it's a sort of approach. Our welfare state, their built around service in the union, army and partisan politics and in the gilded age. And then you have the idea of basic income for widows,
essentially widows with children right that, particularly in a pre nineteen sixty is mentality. If you were a woman who are politically a white woman who got married had some children, you had done the right thing in life, and so, if your husband died and was now not able to support you having the taxpayers support, you was like a perfectly reasonable policy option, because it wasn't your fault that you were there sort of penniless, and there was no reason for society to impose on you the need to leave your children and go out and earn a living, because that mothers were not expected to do that in general. So, if the state had to step in for your day,
husband. That was fine, but if you were like some tramp who is just haven't babies, you know that wasn't find it all right, and then we had a move towards a sort of more rationalist system in which welfare payments are just based on objective need, rather than on how you came to have the children and the politics of vague and much much more fraud, so something Scotch Paul argues that when you had
they bore to wait. There was near universe all participation in the war right, not every single person served in the military, but basically every family,
either someone working in the military or working in wartime military production, and even when you didn't he was such a comprehensive total war with with the war bonds and there you know, don't eat meat on Tuesdays. What whatever it is right, it's a miracle
as a whole? We waging this war, and so then, in the Post war, ten fifteen twenty years, you have a spirit of lake self congratulation.
like like we deserve it, and you have this even more explicitly in the UK. I was right when I read the Labour Party campaigns in nineteen. Forty, five and above all, we need to build a home fit for Europe was read because it's like all of Britain fought the war, so we can all have a universal welfare state, and I guess that the question of late this idea, Dylan was funding, is
without the actual war, can you Eugene it up
to me, one of the striking things is that the home fit for heroes did not actually strictly test your eligibility for the age ass. Based on whether or not you had sacrificed,
the war he was like there had been so much sacrifice, and the second was so close to universal that the electorate with like yeah
we're gonna just say we have a solid touristic national mindset now right. Where is the idea of this sort of like compliance culture where
like yeah you'll, do the service, and then you deserve it
it seems almost like too obvious of of a fake to me
is like we could say like all well, you know, like you served sophomore year in high school like good, for you.
But like we don't because we know like we didn't just fight a war against Germany right
I don't know that you can grow world where two particularly worthwhile to an end
Ok, I'm- and I also have just been reading a lot about this and about until it
starting like about halfway through their war, there was the sense that the class structure, the way Britain must set up was like not sustainable that they would have to do something for the poorer for for the working people who had suffered, especially in London, more than anybody else yeah. I I don't know that you can lake analogies, the London Blitz and
sure way. The lake build that kind of support, and I wonder how this would end up being a fresh lake refracted through other stratifications, I mean viable. Knowledge is interesting. We have a pretty high, not universal, that pretty,
high school regulation rate, but nobody uses that is an indication of deserving thus or that you or that you ve done anything if you gotta go
you don't finish it like. I why you did something wrong. Bear United like we're, we're always looking for excuses to find someone not descend. The funniest, many
thing here. Right was drama manual. Had this idea in Chicago that ammunition and national service idea, but it isn't, he was right to ever
before they graduate from high school had to like have some by pledge to go to college or have a job or or something
but then there was gonna be like an exception for like rich kids, who wanted to take a gap, ear and visit Florence or something, and
Not just make fun of rom
you can see where he got. That idea, because it's like the point was to do something to put structure in the lives of address youth, not to hassle rich kids and their parents.
who are not the subject of social concern writing. But it also makes you think about like what would a national service scheme look like in practical, practical reality?
rattling. You could see a sort of up make work jobs programme for poor kids gaining a certain level of traction. Maybe, but like would you really take like Bush?
the Upper middle class kids and make them do marine basic training or, I don't know, pave roads.
Someone a part of what happens in a war is like it is an actual honest to God, emergency right, so it's like-
Yes, we are going to inconvenience people and make them go fight in this war, because it's really a point that we win the war. But if it's just like what will we ve got him whatever? Until I have a nice time
then it seems it seems challenging to me too, like actually get the oomph. It's like you would know
the Spirit of solidarity that you're trying to create you'd need somewhat universal by
and which I think is one reason to be skeptical of served the monetary incentive which may not mean that much too to certain rich kids. I think there are a lot of ancillary benefits. The people
What am I gonna? Try and international service programs like desegregate in the military plus the draft in the forties and fifty is a thing: did a real service towards building support for operational call, it
and you could imagine now in a world where there is fast residential segregation and most people go to high school, so people of their own raise this having a similar effect, you could imagine that certain putting people in contact with immigrants and reducing or xenophobic attitudes for them, you could imagine being away for kids ends or depressed communities to take a job in a city, this higher productivity and get out of that. But a lot of these purposes are things that, like in principle, k through twelve education could do like you would be so trying to make up for the fact that we'd, like don't, have a proper bussing system and like let white suburbs like segregate their children and and demand that they not be schooled around back.
but you know, kids and like we should fix that, and this is sort of a third after the fact attempted to plug that whole yeah. I think I have these in perspective at its from having education that had been started. Thinking about, as we ve been talking about this, which I hate to be the cliche person has like
the devil, the severe the details, the leg, I think
there are a lot of people across the political spectrum who can broadly get behind the idea of requiring someone to serve their country is a good thing. There are vastly different ideas of what that means in what is valuable service and what is make work? Not only are they different idea, there, probably almost diametrically opposite in terms of what is good and useful at. I agree, I think a benefit here would be social mixing would be getting people from different geographic regions, different backgrounds, lake meat and findings,
common or have horrible fights, that would ruin the programme with it, like six monthly has to say, but I you know I mean I am like imagining describing this, and I am seeing Belike analogy unripe art to Communist China in the nineteen sixty is where they sent the intellectuals to the country.
I'd like literally as I am thinking without offending Burma, would probably support setting intellectuals today,
maybe that's there, maybe maybe five hours there can be no one any like their new neurotics. Nobody mean to me. It seems like a very direct analogy to how we don't manage poem
schools, re United States right that, like it, would be logistically a little bit of a hassle to create racially integrated public high schools in the District of Columbia rather than neighbourhood based public schools in the different cobia like people would not be good.
To the high school. That was the closest to their house, but in others they ve Hany City, where nobody me, but also like people subject to school bussing programmes, not primarily, fourthly, commuting
Inconvenience right because they actually opposed the idea of forcible socio economic integration.
In their child's life. So a national service programme would be like a legitimate logistical burden on people's lives. For the purpose of accomplishing this thing that we checked to accomplishing
much sort of simpler level, all which suggests to me they. Just if you or someone who wants people to have to go through more mandatory integration, it would make more sense to keep pushing on the somewhat hopeless door of school integration, because the logistics of doing that are pretty solid, like if people really wanted to have racially mixed public high schools like, I think we know how to make that happen. The challenger be convincing them that they do month that, but you would need to do all things. The national service right, like first you
It means people that they actually want. Do it, and then you would have to devise some whole notion of like how does it work? What do they do? Babo hours? We only know what sixteen neurons do. I'd like they go to high school and we know how to transport people from their homes to high schools. It's not like it's just a political problem and we have municipalities the lake,
Hertford. This might have changed. Since I was right about a belief. Barford has like a pretty good bussing programmed as pre successful at these and yeah like if
Montgomery, County and and Maryland agreed tomorrow to take some DC kids into their their public schools. If you get a lot of the stuff done, but they don't look like don't want poor placards friends like good evidence and school integration,
possibly does is actually work. So a lot of the research on integration, its difficult, because a lot of the research and integration was dine at a time when schools are actually being integrated, which was the seventies and eighties scores provides an integrated schools went up faster than in segregated hold. I believe horse were white. Kids
if it's well, but I am not a hundred prisoners. Certain on that. I know they didn't get worse and said,
has been bandied around a lot in the past few years, which is interesting. How, conversely conversation that all kinds of other subjects feel like they were changed by the election in a way that all this whole feels a long time ago, but it with like six months ago that the Greeley, the big topic in the sort of liberal talking education circles was like integration, a good thing or the only good thing that we need to pursue. I have not read all that research myself and my senses.
May have been some other confounding factors in this in that time. Just because you were just integrating schools, you were taking it out of schools that had been like bad and under funded and were were in many cases, putting them into better schools that I suspect hadn't had an
there. But generally I mean that the research, the research and integration is pretty good in terms of it being a good thing and then
almost completely abandoned in favour of you know: no child left behind accountability. Tight palace,
is it. The wind has shifted so utterly as as this area chains that at that it off at also feel they happen to be like that. That was a long time ago, and who knows what would happen today, because we think it was a deliberate policy choice for that to be a really long time ago, but it was but but the evidence at the time seem to indicate that it was worth yeah
yeah it was, there is pretty every minute now there is a really
good, does don't really get feature in this smoking life, and I believe that Times magazine also by Nicole Downs, going through some of the evidence about this and and
that it still does close the achievement gap and we don't know a lot of ways to do that fully like there are some really effective charters that have some really effective methods, but the results in pretty good and through that actually under selves. Then I think in education circles there's a tendency to focus on some sort of standardized metric of learning outcomes, of what sort of share of hysteria deviation of improvement and test scores you get from something in that super important, like I don't think, that's meaningless, but I think a lot of the benefit from tee segregation is an educational, its civic look, one thing: I've I've like thought a lot about since the trump. When is that we need to think seriously about how to build a political economy that, like produces citizens who are less susceptible to racist demagoguery, and that's
really really hard. I think exigencies rinsing stuff about how Canada does this and a lot of it is just like freely aggressive teaching of multi cultural values and schools, and I think, a really effective way to do that in the american context is thirty segregation and that won't show up. I, unlike some standardized test results, I won't show up and anything that easily quantifiable, but
really really important yeah sure I should say that, like I believe
this is a good and worth doing, regardless of whether or not it works, and that these these sort of evidentiary conversations in some cases missed. The point which are sort of the argument has been around this in the education of unity for about the past six months. The other things
interesting. Is that because everything end up being a debate about charter schools and some way charter school to gotten moved into this because charter schools, because of the populations they target, tend to be purposefully, Hypercycle gated and
This is in some ways. It is becoming, I think, a very, not not a false choice, because, like bees, are a choice between two different approaches,
but like the debate, has somehow been set up as like integrated couldn't court neighbourhood tools that are no longer really neighbourhood tools because of residential segregation, verses like hyper, segregated charter schools and articles bad because their segregated witches Lake
good way of separating out the things people like to argue about most and education, but is not really about the sort of holistic issue. Here.
Wade, although I mean
to me I mean I didn't
these issues deserve to be linked together. The the issue that people are, I think missing, is that in an urban context right. The neighbourhood schools are a market based school choice programme in which access to schools is auction through the real estate market rate, so, like Turner, schools are very segregated because they are based on a choice and soaring
at all and neighbourhood. Public schools are also based on a choice and sorting model with just a price mechanism rather than a marketing mechanism. Right and if you wanted to create integrated schools, you would have to substantially reduce the amount of choice.
People have I mean you could have some of both but, like you would have to be saying these schools by design are going to be racially integrated in in Singapore they have some of the world's most racially integrated housing and the reason they do that is they make their apartment blocks, be mixed ride, so, like a buck, cannot be too much Chinese by law in their system. We're not gonna. Do that.
we could do, that was cool, so it's not a totally unreasonable idea, but it would require pushing back against both the charter, reversion of choice and the neighbourhood. He version of choice in favour of up in a real, very centralized system and which were saying like you have to do this in order to maintain Lego, larger social goal that we think overrides like your mom's idea about waste,
seated at school, and that's you know not. I don't know it's. It's not really the american Way people
you know, argue about trying to schools because their arguing about unions, but in in big cities like the it's two sides of the same coin, in terms of people getting to pick their school square space, making next move making next website and make it beautiful
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And there are other thing I mean like- I think it's perfectly reasonable- sporty segregation and still say that, like we ve learned, really interesting, important things about pedagogy and how to structure school so that kid's more effective, we learn from randomize charter experiments like I think weep. We didn't have a lot more evidence on the importance of long schooldays and answer if teachers in certain serve models of teaching that the cap, schools and other other places have tried out
that are probably applicable even in a desegregated model. I'd be interested in that, if they were I'd, be interested, especially in an economically integrated model, because one of the really far
here, but one of the interesting things about charters is that, like suburban trainers have my kind of may result,
and traders in places where the schools are already as as generally perceived quota, what pretty good
and I'm I'm I'm curious lake. I dont know if it's because I think importance, because that model people have not tried to take that model. The places where the schools are lake, otherwise pretty good the charter sort of trying to appeal and different grounds than like we're going to be in school. They log and are really going to raise these kids Tesco
Is that all that? I wonder if I should San Jose too, that there's a kip school near my house whenever I should send a message for the sake of the takes.
You should set into the that chinese bilingual school, so you can survive in our Mandarin dominated future. I think that is the heart of strange holding out as events. What all the bushy people entities in one, oh yeah, I'll, be some bilingual gonna. He can be vice way of northeastern United States
Haiti is conquests, but I am I
in that in the short term takes and life, and I I send my rich toddler to a no excuses charter score. Let's, let's see what happens to, I don't think anybody the twisted it takes
language versions cause, but I would be very interested in like one
come out from outcomes, someone who believes deeply and language immersion and has taught it. I also do not fully believe that go into a chinese immersion. Tartars goal is going to make you floated mandate when you're an adult
by that is that we are now way all depends on what our chinese overloads want. Europe speaking of over
wow, ok, we're one of our overlords were over
Now, what does I've always vapours? I am talking about. I do I, why wild research so the title of this envy? Our paper is just queens.
it, is a recent working paper examining basically, this sort
to me annoying gendered myth that if women, where entire we wouldn't have war, is really the underlying thing here. When funding about this paper, as I am ninety nine percent sure it was conceived in the world
we're going to be released and Hillary Clinton presidency and would have felt,
slightly more relevant in actually Leslie Charming and feet than it does to me right now
think about this a lot when, as you like research and things for the better the process for wildly, oh, you didn't realize why ok well. Do I certainly interesting I'm so, essentially what they did was looked,
whether or not over five centuries countries had queens for they had kings
were unmarried queens and how likely they were to engage in conflict and what they found was in fact that, queen
were more likely to go to war thinkings war, which is kind of the opposite of what the conventional wisdom here is. But there are a lot of interesting wrinkles here about marriage about siblings, whether or not this is like applicable to modern society.
If it is to really fascinating. They pursued so single queens, get into more wars that married once right, yes will, but when part of it is because they get attacked,
right, my understanding of the papers that single queens get attacked more. The authors I publicize because their perceived is weak and the
married queens because they have made an alliance and have more military resources attack people more.
along with the US, along with their husbands, the king, the order there other allies, the kind of both right. So it's a
What are you doing? Research so that the wording of the marital point in is this actually really important, because it underscores the extent to which this research, though funny, does not see applicable to modern day democratic politics right, because the fact that the single queens get invaded more often
is the married ones, have powerful military alliances and attack. Other people is showing that the sort of Queen Ward Dynamic is very tied not just to the personality of the monarch, but you actually like structural political conditions of monarchy as as a system of government right and that it is actually a reshapes. The objective international relations, dynamic,
in a sort of unusual kind of way, I think modern day. Politicians normally do not have these kind of international marriage alliances. The prime minister of of Denmark a few years ago, was married to a british member of parliament,
which I was, that was a little bit of a street, and I don't really know how their work fair balance,
Employment cannot use a plausible future leader of the Labour Party. I mean
they really England. Denmark did not go to war either together or apart. So what he was,
power like everybody else, you were not test. One hour of Denmark had tried to invade, to put him put him in office right which your
and anyway, there's an unusual or type of terrorism to sit in the modern day sun on a hundred percent understand how it how it came about, but I mean I guess it.
is the boiling. Do people seriously think that if women were in charge, we wouldn't have worn? Yes, I feel that they were able to
It is partly a thing that men say when they think they're being complimentary and it is in fact really irritating. There were several examples of this during the campaign and if I had access to my anchoring tweets from like not just that, but
This idea that women, like by name,
creating more carrying compassionate
warlike society is stopped.
Pretty prominent and out there and people think it said it has been Evelyn sexism applied to sort of like the roles of power like the people, things as they are complementary thing to say
It is definitely stereotyped that exists. Clinton herself has actually, I think, done a great deal, despite not becoming president disruptive combat. This
notion women, who was we want, like even tendering Andy, I don't think it's very what they do. Have a pacifist like Thatcher
Some of that lake I mean there.
This argument and some literature that that modern women leaders fury and urge to serve out hawk the man, because they need to bolster their credentials of serious national security, which is something where we have a lot of gendered assumptions. And that always seem more credible than the sort of.
lazy of psych babies be peacemaking boy. This is one reason why the queen's interesting way, though, because, like one argument, be ok, if you randomly assigned some woman to be president, would she be less hawkish than a randomly us?
Man- and I think maybe I mean I think, if you look at public opinion and things like that- that, like women on average in the United States, are less inclined towards
harsh criminal justice punishments are, you know, they're, like more left wing in general, as we know from voting within. Another question is like in the actual dynamics of politics. I feel, particularly inside the democratic party- it's probably not a coincidence that, as Hillary Clinton, sort of worked her way up the funnel towards trying to become president did she positioned herself as more hawkish than most Democrats, or that say like someone like Michel Flournoy, like one of the big democratic parties or defence intellectuals, leadings candidate, to be the first woman secretary of defence that she is also one of the most hawkish of Democrats. In that kind of position I mean it's because there's a lot of general assumptions around national security politics and, conversely, like
You wanted to stand out as unusually dove issue on military issues. It would really help not just to be a man, but he would help a lot to be combat veteran general yeah right language like this has not happened that a guy like that is happening. Why, like that,
That's how you would want to do it and includes also, I think you see this among Democrats that, like the most vocal sceptics of say, trumps bombing of Syria intended to be Iraq, war veterans, who could say like I am saying that I do not think it is wise to send more american.
into wars and in the Middle EAST, but above all by of course, there are women who are combat veterans buddy. It's the bulk
the armed forces, are man. I think you know, biographies being neutral, like manner can be more like tough got, unquote
Any push back? The queen's is like closer to the random assignment cages,
but it interesting that it showing their that- I guess it's not like. Ok women just take over by accident, now we'll get along it. We should clarify like what the methodology here was because it's for you,
yeah? This is that I actually recommend reading they drive method, ology sections of that favour its fast. It fascinates, who, like me and economists, are obsessed with finding serve, were called instrumental variables or things they can control for that will predicted thing that third they're trying to determine the effects of, but is not serve serbian Dodge,
to that in a troublesome way. I'm probably saying this wrong and I apologise to my college econometrics, professor, but the way there
look at. It is whether a king or a previous monarch had a younger sister, which is the same
Rio, which leads to more women taking power, because if he doesn't produce viable airs, his sister will take power
or ones without male children is another situation, and so these are like basically
and am outcomes like the gender of siblings
a family is not something that is affected by forces. That would also affect the like.
Heard of apology to go to war, and so it's something that you can serve control foreign, get close to random,
variation end and then determine the effective
independent of anything else that might lead women as leaders to be more or less involved in wars, its it yeah they code, they could the different names voices they code to certain regulation should sit in the queen's its herbage mean that exceeds the kings and meet with between the siblings. I would really love to know just play
I would have loved you about the fly on the wall for some of its research at the IDA now thunder what I love about I'd be our papers is like most of the really here's a normal question. People have, admittedly outside here is that, because of paper about like sixteenth century queens and whether or not they went to war road, we
interesting thing. I think there are some of the alternate hypotheses that explores which is like did they just have really hawkish men who were do they were taking advice from and they found that? No, that was probably not the case than that
we're not any more easily swayed by their their hawkish advisers than kings were.
It's an interesting paper in part because of its actual findings, but also in part because of the lake assumptions its examining and and what that says, the were asking this question in the first place so that these every assumptions we make about this, but what's what's like the takeaway of this, if you were trying to you, know a little slipshod early,
extended forward too to the modern world. So they tried to do this in its like night, particularly convincing to me. Broadly speaking, we may expect to observe systemic differences in where policy based on a rulers gender. If anybody who recently
very large s if male and female leaders organise their girls differently, including who they recruit into their governments and who they, unless the play supporting or some sort of like. If men and women govern unlike extraordinarily different ways, this may have extremely different outcomes. But I doubt that feel like a little bit of a stretch to me- or at least that's that's like a thing that you could
at the end of any paper on gender and power and I'd, be like yellow thumbs right woman- I mean we ve discussed. I think Sir Sir Cliff discuss with us. I am previous episodes of the show, but on domestic issues that I think are a little easier to to co. You know we do find that that women legislators are more likely to introduce bills on certain kinds of topics related to child and family policy, and that that holds when you can
all four partisanship when you control for district ideology, things like that, so I mean it does seem to suggest that men and women are governing differently on some kind of dimension it. You know it's it's hard to test a farm policy analogue of that, because, like these sample of state legislators is really really big, and the simple at President's is tiny. Assembled woman president's zero.
which is why you need five hundred years where things international data to make this work at all, but it still it. It doesn't struck me as a crazy
path. Now I don't think it is, and I think I mean the idea,
women are their countries will be more attacked where, because they are perceived as weaker, perceived as less like that, if I back, I dont think is limited to like
arrange the problems. There are so many other factors these days that go into like whose having war with each other that adults are very difficult to sort of like pull that one strand out and look at look at that road, and I think it is also important to put this in the context of dislike wars, a lot less clear
particular interstate war that they didn't find any effects on civil wars, but they did find a fax and interstate were initially, whereas dislike becoming a thing of the past like dirt. There there incidents, obviously we bomb Syria the other day but bathing. This is one clear finding of of
figures research on this of decades ago, John Mueller had a really good book called remnants of war, arguing that debt interstate war with something like doing or slavery. That seems inextricable from the way that the the modern world works, but
actually just an idea that can fade away like any other anything serve in a context of all of us,
decline in wars are being tortured if it harder to to make fine distinctions between
how men and women make war in and what what does serve there's just like to smaller than, and now it's a good thing, while a sea of North Korea can make it happen,
first, a natural, some sure heart. So without thanks too, to Libya until Infer join me. I thanks to you for listening thanks for producer, Peter Leonard and to our sponsors. This ban
Another fabulous episode of the weeds on the box media podcast network, we'll see you next week
Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.