« The Weeds

Jared Kushner: International man of mystery


Dylan Matthews and politics reporter Andrew Prokop join Matt to talk about the Paris Accords and the mysterious role of the First Son-in-Law.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yes, I had an everything bagel with sausage egg cheese. That's decadent Delicious had said nothing and man's backward and forward Akashi by spray hello, welcome to another so that the weeds on the box media Punkahs Network, a method place. Yes, I join me today with that. I feel it Matthews who has been on the show before, but we are banning from talking about universal basic income, nobody will be given money for any reason under any of the topics we talk about that. But thanks for being here s, our colleague Andrew Procope covers the White House and and political matters he appeared at the facts. I come got every thing:
for having me yeah, as can be great. The big news this week, you know in terms of substance, is Donald trumps decision to pull out of the Paris Climate agreement. This was announced yesterday as well recording by the time he announced it. I think it had come to be expected. There were sort of that enough leak, see he, built a little drama that you said like gonna do an announcement on my decision, but it was pretty clear that that men, he was pulling out but we would have to where we were a few months ago even a few weeks ago. I do think it something of a surprise. There had been considerable support from his administration for the idea of staying. And a lot of the business community wanted to stay in and a big part The reason is that the agreement- self did not include a lot of binding action on the United States broken
I'm up put this thing together, diplomatically, but relatively late in his administration, when he could not credibly promise dramatic new policy initiatives, and you know so he didn't and it just sort of said the. U S would would continue one it same kind, of course, but from a diplomatic standpoint you know the agreement can now unravel other countries might retaliate. There seems to be a lot of foreign leaders. Dumping on twitter undamaged, which is a strange new phenomenon, been Andrew, had at an interesting piece on the site,
you're making the case that this is basically an example of Donald Trump being just a pretty standard issue republican, I would say, maybe not a standard issue republican, but definitely sort of where the conservative base is and where a pretty significant portion of the conservative institutional actors in the Republican Party are whether that's think, tanks, whether that serve elected officials, whether that's big donors, activist groups. I I think that some The coverage of this has sort of portrayed as an idiosyncratic weird decision by Donald Trump or perhaps Steve Ban, and who is pushing this kind of Anti globalists agenda, but what we have to keep in mind here, is that you know Senate
Geraghty leader Mitch, Mcconnell and twenty one other republican senators sent Trumpet letter calling on him to do this. most major conservative activist groups did the same whether it South America for prosperity, which is the Cook brothers group or the heron foundation. They were all behind their sin and then you can see it in the conservative media outlets too, and not just the P were usually in traps corner, like Fox news and bright barred by national review. Witches has had that you really from optical here. Take the ant. tramps stance and and actually saw David French, who was considering actually running for president against Trump. As an independent, he wrote an article praising trumps. Pulling out of Paris is like the right thing for the constitution, so
I do think it's important to keep in mind here that there is a spectrum of opinion in the Republican Party on whether they should outwardly say they don't believe in climate science. Global warming either isn't here neighing are humans are in contributing to it or whether they should sort of acknowledge science, by contrive reasons to oppose proposals to do much about it. I mean something I do wonder about. This is how much of conservatives support for this move is driven by the fact that its the move from decided to make versus the other way around that you know if tromp had gone into different horse and said you know, look were doing whatever would with
yea and changing whatever in the domestic funding, but as a foreign policy matter we're staying inside this global climate framework, you know, as Bob Corker said, we should, as Mitt Romney said, we shared with David friend I have been denouncing trump because I feel like they never tramper. Intellectuals are like, in this weird place where you can go like Bill Crystal and David from have totally marginalized themselves or else you need to every once in a while. Read this like. I criticized Trump when he's wrong, but you know he's he's doing the right thing here. Can it takes? But I am not an expert in the collected works of did French. My guess would do that. You're adhered criticise, trim for not going far enough on that, but like one of the relevant things like what would Republican based voters do and
Thanks to this would serve. Media institutions like like Fox NEWS, do and I think we have a lot of compelling evidence both served from political science and from past experience with Russia in the last election that people take their cues from from senior elites. among whom the president is most senior and aspect that if you had pulled Paris among GNP voters, for a decision was made and then trumped decided to stay in, for whatever reason you would have seen a shift. The same way we saw was republican out it's for Russia after Easter, it's costing up to Britain, the Americans for prosperity. Point though it is a good one right I mean you ease to be involved in the AIR Coke Ghana web documentation, side of that the journey stick world, and I dont honestly know that much about it, but definitely like a thing that the coat brothers have been doing for years is trying to stay calm
not merely echo the positions of mainstream republican Party leaders, the way some kinds of think tanks and advocacy organizations do let's take up positions that are similar to, but at least a little bit different from where the GEO p is and try to light. bend republican politics toward them and moving to completely deal a gentle eyes. The climate change issue in republican party circles is something they ve been. The long predates Donald Trump yeah, of course, and then I think I can see that in Mcconnell also calling on trying to pull out of this agreement- and you know wreck sense, Kentucky Alot of coal interests in Kentucky Fossil fuel interest generally are just one of the most important interest groups in
find yourself today's Republican Party in and they had been for couple decades nets and that's the coax too. I mean, I think they d like to self present as pie, ideological money rather than transactional interest group money, but they have substantial interests specifically the fast fuel sector here. They know their money comes from, but I think what I would point out is that, while it is true that the issue of Paris in particular, I could in vision, you know a president marker Rubia, or jet Bush may be saying. Well, you know I was again stairs when it was negotiated by it's not really binding. It doesn't do all that much in and we can shape assets more from the inside. So it would be too much about headache to gonna pull out now, and so you know the question of whether any other republican president would have withdrawn from power.
This. I think is an open one, but the question of what general power seize any other republican president would pursue in their EPA. When it comes to invite and all regulation or deregulation whether they would make addressing climate change a major priority for their administration? I think it's pretty clear that its very very low down and the parties priority list- I mean they might have stayed in the Paris agreement by they wouldn't have cared very much about trying to invest anything in we're trying to make good on yeah. I mean I mean this is a big change that I think has people know has happened, but to some extent tent like forget about it At times opportunistic me, I looked back and read that the two thousand eight democratic party platform a few times recently and it's it's striking how, it makes some noise is about climate change.
But the means mean thematic energy policy. Point of the two thousand eight Democrats is the idea of energy independence and the problematic nature of foreign oil That's like the mean framing and so were didn't. It doesn't make any sense anymore. You did not make a lot of law jack all sense at the time, because people, if you were really in the no right, you understood in two thousand eight, that the Democrats were the environmentalist party but they had adopted this framework that, Do you see you know clean energy and stuff was about reducing dependence on foreign oil. There were some gestures toward the idea of clean coal, which is is produced domestically
and they didn't say anything about fracturing or horizontal drilling is those were not technologies. People were familiar with at the time and the like. I'm going course of partisan polarization, plus the development of much more domestic oil and gas. Drilling has cut that out right. Where Democrats are now much more squarely positioned as an anti fossil fuel development party and then Republicans, George W Bush, you know came from Texas. It was an oil state. He had a very fossil fuel friendly politics, but in his successors, Republican Domini was John Mccain, who had a different view on this kind of issues, and it just was in. It was clearly not like at the core of what Republicans were about, since they could, just
which, from nominated nominee and now they are much more firmly cement, did as the party that stands for the idea that digging up coal tracking for natural gas, offshore drilling for oil is like the economic development strategy for the United States and Democrats, I think, would have quite realising the full implications of the switch have like put themselves in a. I dont want to call it an extreme policy, because I agree with it and you don't want to your own. Had his extreme but relative to where they used to be. It is a much more extreme. Take the Democrats now miss legless, responsive to
the part of what was happening to doesn't aid- is that there is a holes or green jobs message that people are paying out there were. The idea was that you could framed this in a way so with non threatening to serve Appalache in and and other absorb sections of the country there are dependent on fossil fuel firms or economic development, and in it was also focus grouped in a way that was heavy cognizant of of what their organs act on, whereas now like, if you like, the actual environmental grass roots, is much more powerful and much more more vocal and important as part of the democratic coalition which serve makes that kind of navigating more difficult when selling we shouldn't build this pipeline, because pipelines are bad is like a thing. Very vocal constituency in the Democratic Party wants people to say, and I
It's not like a crazy to say yes, but is not a message, would like a ton of nuance yet, and I think I m looking at some pulling on partisanship in and climate change recently in and a lot of people have observed how you know basic opinion on climate science has become increasingly polarized among Democrats and Republicans voters over the past few years. But one thing I saw it was really interesting is that I am. I think this was a pew pole last December and twenty three percent of republican voters said that you know the earth was warming in that humans were the main contributor, and I thought, of course that's interesting. But if you look at democratic voter,
Only two thirds of them agree with that. So even the sort of acknowledgement in the consensus of the climate science is nowhere near a unanimous position among self identified, democratic voters. You still have a third of the base, who I mean it's not just that they don't really care about this. It's that they aren't necessarily even convinced by the science which I felt was a little at troubling people who do care about climate change. Yeah I mean this will mean that an important question- and I think I saw a lot over trumpeting of you- know some some poles indicating a public support for for climate action yesterday, coming from Democrats and
I mean that's true. It's like a true finding that is there. I think you also do see it's difficult for me to point to an instance of an election, but there was a general election or primary election, really where you would say. Ok, this person lost because their opinion on climate change was was too right wing, whereas I think it's is fairly easy to point two examples. of course, country Democrats, who had been hampered by this kind of thing and there's a question in my mind as to how much that sort of green politics political cost has as bled out of the sort of West Virginia South Western, Real Virginia Eastern Ohio Kentucky area into the lake Michigan Pennsylvania. You know sort of blue Walser,
that that Trump breached, whereas you could imagine a politics in which Democrats are compensated because they are winning elections in Arizona on a strong pro. Solar message is a fucking ton of sunshine in Arizona, very few coal mines and it actually horrible. Retrograde public utility there, but it hasn't yet happened to an extent you know, pull gray people to over them politicians care about Paul's, but also when issues have been kicked around for a long time. It's like you need concrete events, kind of like put the fear of God in people and I've never seen that I've never seen like what is the. This is the thing that is gonna make a Republican worried wrote,
having fraction specifically has changed the thought that that serve the two Major Churchill sites are North Dakota, which was a state that, as recently as is twenty ten, had to democratic senators for a long period of time and like real demagogue, senators, who were not super right wing and like now has one, you just got elected by the skin, for teeth and entered the slovenian Ohio Span other one, and so you answer and actual large increase in dependence on on fossil fuels, in certain very electoral, significant states, for control of the Senate, and in the latter case, for the electoral college and using zero response to this among among Democrats region under state like, I think we should be doing like extremely aggressive things to fight climate change
What declared this is like a political analysis and not like a normative one, but you need to make that argument to accommodate you yourself towed into that reality too, to a certain extent- and we all know. has been more more just sort of age polarization of voting in the United States. In the end, you see climate change very much like falling into that span. I mean where you had do have Republicans building their coalition increasingly on, like an issue portfolio that appeals very exclusively to old people, and you know it makes you wonder where the law long Ratan. Trajectory of this is is supposed to be politically because one reason that I think we have seen impose public concern about climate change is mounting is that the warming itself continues to
and the other news yesterday, along with Paris, was like the opening up of some giant Fischer in the Antarctic. I she nodded and Arctic ICE sheet scientist. I don't know exactly what the deal is, but at some point some giant piece of ice is gonna, have prick government acted and come floatin up north and reality does tend to intervene in politics, at least on some level. I am fascinated as some plan in this whole saga by the legend of Jared Customer and above the trump which I think has been like most firmly established by a book ended by a pair of any Carney articles and in political, where she had won in December, that was headlined vodka trunk climate tsar question Mark, and then there was one yesterday about how like Jared an avant garde, moving on after Paris defeat. But it was this, this holes Longer narrative of
trumps daughter, who he he seems to be quite close to and his son in LAW who he was not close to historically, but has become very important part of it his circle and that they were kind of these, like I don't know, culturally liberal New Yorkers, who were spearheading influence of moderation in, from administration as recently as April. I ain't Andrew Road wrote about this, but there was there was this like rise of the globalists that was supposed to be taking place inside the White House, which I think is part of what set up this idea that Paris was Steve Ban in Triumph, because, relatively recently, what we were hearing was that Jared in Vodka and Gary Code and a charming master and and Rex till her son had like established dominance, and that
You know whether we were conservative economics. They were going to pursue like a moderate course on foreign policy and trade issues yeah there was that moment. I think it was a month a month and a half ago, something like that where Trump publicly rebuked ban in- and it really seem to be signalling that he was on the spite he does seem to have no hang in there and one out on this issue, but it also sometimes hard no what's really going on behind the scenes there. I think their reporting has been very clear that a vodka has been pushing against their sides, not clear how effective she's been, but people can point to things that she tried to do. At least, I think what commissioner did is a little less clear there. There was another report in
most. I think that said that he actually shared sum of trumps concerns about Paris and that's after the decision is made. Maybe just doesn't want to be Trade is losing out. But I do think that on many issues, the narrative of Jared, in particular being the moderate influence is not actually true. You can see that in the firing of call me where he is said to be the top adviser who was pushing most heavily four jumped to fire Coy Bay, I don't wanna zoom two yards he'll turn. I think I want to understand like liquors, because just to vodka or even Yvonne, can Jared ride like there was there was this story about the globalists, then I do think is directly relevant to as you said, distinguishing between like domestic environmental regulation and like the Paris accord as a diplomatic initiative right and like the globalist
the viewpoint I think, is very represent, while these big multinational companies who are like a transition that than that in their executives in the administration that Gary Conan Rock Stars, then why that like there was desire on the part of America's diplomats, America's big businesses, to stir at the table. Well, I don't. I don't know why. I think this is one of those issues where I mean, if you will the issue of trade trade is an issue where the institutional actors in the republic, party, are aligned with the so called Global S position and via, our policy is just not one of those issues. Yes, you can portray Paris as say you can say that. Oh, this is really about diplomacy. Its about climate change, but I mean a lot of the conservative activists groups interpret. this about climate change, a lot of the latter officials, the think tank people I mean
It's not really clear just how much in love corporate Amerika was with Paris. You can think back to when Obama was pushing cap and trade in two thousand nine- and it's like they got a bunch of becoming is to sign on and and say that cap and trade was a good idea and sure they prefer to be at the table there worthy crying when the captain to Trade bill failed, no, not in acquiring my prayers and on the latest edition of the limited Upside MBA podcast, it's the warriors. It's the calves is the third dish in the NBA finals, and what better way to preview there on court stuff. the rivalry and some of the trash talking with the editors hard, Sb Nations Cavaliers and warriors sides a little bit of an interesting relationship. So this one gets kind of fun subscribe.
Andy listen, tab on Itunes or go to sb nation dot com to check the episode out will not like having due to interest point about Our second here with mainstream conservatism. The way that climate scepticism has been sold by conservative leads not just in the last four or five years been lost, like twenty or thirty years, his eyes deserving pew. With an anti globalism that I don't know if you remember the whole agenda. Twenty one thing where there is a sort of nations initiative to to serve promote sustainable development that got picked up vitally clan back and the sort of full conservative media ecosystem and turned into this earth conspiracy. Theory about serve global domination and the? U unstopping on property rights. Those who, like the arch populist end of the kind of arguments that you heard like Paul, Ryan and people like that, making going back as far as like Kyoto that that a lot of them
action to Kyoto was with standard climate scepticism, but some of them was the sense that this was the this international body imposing rules on us. There were unfair that that didn't ask as much of other countries of equivalent size and emissions as they asked of us get me. May I giving that's true read the part of the nature of the climate change issue way is that everybody agrees that the ultimate solution to emissions require some measure of global. Governance, and that is something that has been not welcome on the grass roots right for deck. A long before. Anyone who cared about climate change you picked up, Where did you get? The idea of a stronger United Nations that is going to have enforceable rules is not something that poppies conservatives are interested in when you add in interest, grow politics, economic issues so and so forth. Its is a recipe for
a much more forceful and push back, and that is also where you see a different perspective from like a Goldman Sachs Executive, who I dont want to say. Gary com is a secret liberal. The nature of running a multinational business is that you are relatively comfortable with the idea that having the same regulatory framework in multiple different countries is actually preferable, for you business and have a million different ones ride, so, like bank executives have a lot of feelings about how they don't like strong bank regulations. They don't all mine, the idea of hammering out bank regulations at a big meeting in Switzerland. For one thing you tend to get at least common denominator regulatory approach when you insist on I'm going global. So that's it the difference between a like conservative, leaning, business executive and like a rush, Limbaugh listening, conservative living somewhere in America, but when Jane I mean it is worth saying that they like Seeker
liberal Jared. Custer narrative has a foundation in some reality. I would say I mean separate from reporting of his actions in the Trump administration before Donald Trump ran for president. He had this whole life as a democratic party donor in New York and New Jersey, which was preceded by his father's life as a democratic party donor in New York in New Jersey, where the euro, attorney from New Jersey, Chris Christie as part of his. It struck me as a somewhat partisan prosecution of a major New Jersey, Democratic Party donor by Christie that wound up getting Kirshner thrown in jail and it's just a guess- customers that Charles Cousin, Charles Culture, was real stay developer. Who was a big democratic donor, some strings Christie got him on a tax thing that then became a very salacious witnessed hampering thing that involved
seriously worried. What did he do exactly? He hired a hooker Does it really is his mother, and his brother in law was cooperating with the investigators and in giving them some sort of incriminating information about Charles Kirshner, so he, I think, paid a ass, the two to seduce the brother in law, had it videotaped and then sent the tape to the brother in law, S, wife, so yeah its procedures is a great day. So you know you use your back to before the Trump campaign, and Donald Trump is like this. Guy he's on Twitter is a Bertha he's on tv. He likes to talk about how he may be one for president some day, and a funny fact about him is that his daughter of vodka, like New York Society woman, is married to Jared Kirshner, a rich jewish by democratic Party donor Danzig. Democratic party donor- you wouldn't have characterize either of them as like,
huge liberals, but this is a fairly typical social type right. New York city area, business person, who probably is liberal on a lot of social and cultural issues, was a pragmatic need to be on friendly terms with New York area, elected officials, who are Democrats, and probably you know, behind the scenes, came am. Can we like not raise taxes that much one ensured, also own them York observer, which is not driven a high ceilings, publication of live outside me work and but especially like in the Two thousand was like a notable somewhat left of centre regional, all
paper? Let me leave you and me: these are your prototypical, like Moderate Democrat, like social type, the right which is like practically the opposite social type of the lake. Let's go to Trump country, and you know investigate what like embittered, call minors think about. You know big city elites. That is the gut level foundation on which I think this whole Jerry, in a vodka narrative is built. Is that even if you don't know Jared Kirshner and Vodka, trump people who like live in DC and New York and write about politics, know that kind of person and that kind of person is like not a Donald Trump enthusiast, not a leg, bright, Bart reader and it's very hard, even though all of the evidence suggests. Otherwise, it's like hard for people to conceptualize the idea that leg Jared Kirshner
is like an all in tramper bonus her because of their social networks. Also that, like these, they knew that prison because they ve go to the same parties in them around their justice. Some issues where it is more ok too, to deviate than others like you can those parties and be like yeah. It and texts are a little too high and people feel like I have whatever. But you can't like say that you don't think gay people should have your car rides or that you don't like the leave the science around climate. Change, and so there are real social pressures toward the kind of use the people are imputing to them which, having his power While I Steve Ban in with super skeptical of them, because he'd like assume that anyone in that Social knew, you would like come with those kinds of sell out of you,
and this also seems to be some of the like the back channel journalism right is like a vodka. China, like an a lot like say to her friends back on the upper side, like no don't worry about it. I'm like I'm trying to be constructive year here, but I think there is a real question of just how much shared Kirshner even cares about policy he. Yet you say that he comes from a certain social class and social circles by
He didn't really demonstrate any deeply passionate views on the major political issues of the day that were publicly known, he's very clearly and ambitious sky. He very clearly am wanted to exercise influence, which is why he bought this newspaper and supposedly kept asking its reporters to write hit pieces on people in like he. He seems a very am instrumental kind of them. He wants power and influence and he wants to get his way in and I don't think that he would really stick his neck out to fight the good fight so to speak on any policies,
he was necessarily he. He wants the administration of work that he wants to maintain its influence in administration. Wait, I mean to me I would say that, like the key thing to understanding Jerry, commissioner, in my opinion, is that you know he was a: U. He was using my closet at Harvard and your door to get Kirkland House Dylan, and I both Kirkland Skies Andrew from Elliot House across the street, some very diverse panel here. Joe customer was like. If you knew him, he was a guy. You knew him like Matthew. He was the kind of guy who seemed like, maybe not in the smartest two thirds of the class, I would not have said if you had asked me and like two thousand six like is Jerry Kirshner like the single sky. This person. You ever met in college, but now you know there's like
bunch of rich kids there, who you figure probably dad, was a donor, but it came out later in. There was like a book written about corruption in college admissions and, through some happens, stance of reporting, Jared Kirshner mandate being like a major case study in this, and there was extensive discussion of how his dad had made this two million dollar donation on a instalment plan and they had like quotes from customers, high school teachers and whether he was like way to dumb and they were like shocked to see he got into Harvard, and it was good. It's a good book. It's like an important set of social topic, but it struck. We, as is one of these things are journalism, is hard. You know me like. You only have the sources that you have so then you have to write about like that. It's the specific cases that you can write about in detail, but it went to creating this.
Weird situation where, like this one, I was just like a single handed stand in for, like the whole phenomenon of like people with rich fathers getting them into colleges that maybe there s a t, scores weren't, that good enough, for you have to imagine that was. I got very humiliating experience. There was like a lot of pick up of this book was reviewed and the new times in the Boston Globe there with us a blog posts written about it, then, when he bought than the observer, is like all came up again in the coverage. You know there was like arms, Cocker, jokes and and bubble Bob Bob Bob Bob, and it strikes me as a guy who leg he tried his best. You know like he's, there has grown up in New Jersey. His dad has this lucrative, but can attack e real estate empire in in northern New Jersey and Out Miguel. Us has as a great piece about can a slum lording in Baltimore County and the like, dare Costner he's gonna go to Harvard
he's gonna done, and why you law school, he's gonna by the New York observer, he's gonna marry a vodka trump he's gonna, like, though some good parties and like he's gonna, be like part of these. Are matters of girl, yeah, I'm gonna get off Unreserve for democratic candidate trick bar troubled as recalled yes, and he didn't hidden, stick the landing in any man, and that is the way he is exactly like Donald who, like has spent his whole life like in Midtown, Manhattan, being Manhattan, rich guy and like getting Hillary Clinton, to come to his wedding and wedding, like that, without ever being someone who is who a respected in New York, business or media circles as like. Actually this is a smart, sharp business man and like now, they have the chance to like
show. Everybody that they should have been taken more seriously. This whole time, it's a hell of a way to run a government, but it only makes sense as a psychological theory. There is the mega Havre meant. We had something last night about how trumps overriding urges to not be laughed at and being It is an odd career choice for someone who doesn't want to be laughed at by millions of people, but there is a degree of surf sticking to the house Others have you a chump without there being laughed outright? Is there's always is like quicksand phenomenon where it's like other laughing at me now, so I'm gonna put an even bigger trumps. Am I bigger hotel in Chicago and then people just think more because that's funny of hedge is that he's in trouble sites, but at the same time he did like stick it to people like you know he he worked the lovers. He needs all kinds of special permits and staff, and, like you got the deal done, unlike Malik, he became president putting people are
laughing at him like more than ever, because it's like when you're ridiculous The you do to be a high profile person who's the fund center of attention, the more you and get laughter right, because, like he's a ridiculous, person and the only way to get people to stop laughing a Donald Trump would be the like, not be ridiculous person, but he's clearly none can to change that, so he can only become like more powerful, but then is is just funnier when it's not terrified, as I think also the experience of the twenty. Sixteen campaign probably taught Jared Kushner, as it many others of you can help what what the elites in New York in cities may be thinking in and laughing at being on. The right side of that is not necessarily the best and most effective path to pollute
power and winning a national election. So the idea that he's been on this campaign he's been taking a lot of heat for controversial stuff. His father in law has saying on the campaign trail and then Trump wines and then he's in the White House. It's. Why would we expect Jerry Kashmir too? You know carry water for New York elite views on things that this point when the alchemy election seems too pretty clearly have taught him that they are out of step with some enough people are enough states to win the electoral college, but this is where I think we're talking about Russia, because this has been. I think the thing that really came in like at right angles, to the the old Jared in the globalists narrative, is that it's become clear over the past couple of weeks. That, commissioner, was at the centre of the decision to fire. James call me and then also that the reason he
at. The centre of the decision to fire. James call me is that he is very much at the centre of its Russia inquiry right that you might have thought. Okay, the merry son in law is like the guy who's gonna, be giving trump advice on how to compartmentalize this and get away from it, but actually he is sufficient personally involved, I mean of all this stuff swirling round trumpet Russia, the only thing they like, really truly directly implicates dump trump is the allegation that keep phoned up. James combing tried to get him to drop the investigation and then fired him because he didn't do it right and it seems like Kirshner was the voice of like non caution
on that call an that's because they're looking at this series of of meetings that he had after the election with the russian ambassador Costly AG and with the bank, whose Russian for russian aim, I won't try to pronounce, but we call it the here in Amerika, and so I mean you ve been in putting together a sort of like big, like Macro Russia Timeline. And what's what what's like that? The Jared angle on this? I think that Jared angle, it still little unclear what happened in and when regarding Jared during the campaign itself, but during the transition it's been pretty thoroughly reported and am, I believe, confirmed by the White House
in early December Kirshner and Flynn met with russian Ambassador said a kiss lack in trumped tower and dumb then, couple weeks later, cushion are met with this russian banker. Certainly, Gorka off and there are more sort of details being filled in on this by the day post reported just this week that, after this meeting with the banker, the banker flew directly to Japan, where Vladimir Putin was at the time. They ve also reported that the White House and the bank are giving somewhat different stories about just what commissioner was meeting with this russian Bank or for the White House says that it was
to discuss diplomacy, basically, as as one of many meetings that Kirshner had with foreign dignitaries and so on and at the bank says that it's about the banks and investment strategy that it was basically a business meeting. And this is a bank that has been linked pretty closely with Putin. That is view by many in U S, intelligence, says sort of doing the russian government's bidding with various investments the place the place that puts its money. I mean it's a semi goal of is a graduate of the Russian Like Spy Academy, and a veteran of the russian television services, yet which is not of the work, russian economy is different from the american economy and it's not like totally unheard of four people with that kind of back,
sounds like really just gonna be business men in the way it would be ridiculous in the states for some. You know if you were like the head of shaping Morgan Chase, but also where a fifteen year veteran of the CIA, that would be like super duper duper precious, but major russian companies have alive links to the government. This is a particular kind of link to the, russian government and also the trembling ministrations hey that they took a meeting with this government linked russian Bank, whose head is a graduate of the western Sky School for Deployment purposes strong Hicks adjacent though because otherwise was the diplomatic purpose right, if their view isn't that this was a line to the boon regime. What with the meaningless we been where's, the Russians are trying to say no like something do that is part of their story about the bank. Obviously, is that it isn't just a front for the efforts be because otherwise it will be
while the other thing that's come out, is that these meetings that commissioner had an Flynn was involved in the first one, at least where one of the goals, something that could be there at least mentioned if not outright suggested, was the idea of setting up some sort of a secret line of communication that could be used between the Trump team and it seems the russian government, and the idea would be to her this line of communication on at russian diplomatic facilities, in the U S or or on russian equipment. And it seems like the purpose of something like that would be so. The Trump team could talk to
representatives of the russian government during the transition. Without having U S, intelligence officials become aware of it or have it be up and and the fact that none of this these meetings were not disclosed until March is still not clear. What exactly as discussed there that there's a lot of shady ness. There said Anne and little by Well, there's more and more coming at that. That makes it look we're like the surveillance point. Having is really important, that, like there's nothing shady the SARA about President Elect having contacts with foreign regimes, like I think minutes like part of the process, as is that your managing a transition by yours, was to be doing that in coordination with the current administration and on the up and up and like if we doing it, you should not be afraid
of your own spy agencies. Finding out what you're saying through the initial and they were going to take over the government in just a month or a month and a half anyway. So said this. This obsession with just for one month like it seems odd to set up a secret line of communication that would expire in a month. What seems, alternatively possible is that they want to continue to use that secret line of indication once in office that this speculative emulate, but I think the newer story that we there was out it in Yahoo right which says that this is separate, but I think related. It says that in the early very early days of the trumpet ministries- and there was an effort to sort of start- the wheels tourney on relaxing sanctions on Russia
and that State Department, personnel, the conventionally the sanctions that a banner had just put on in retaliation for the hacks right in the State Department personnel got wind of this sort of when to come hill and warlike. You guys should legislatively entrench the sanctions, so Trump can take them off. There was bills introduce too that a fact then Trump backed off relaxing of the sanctions and then Bob Corker sort of put the cabbage on the legislation its human. Essentially, what happened is that, like the permanent apparatus, government successfully short circuited, an effort by the incoming trembling israeli officials to do Russia, a solid fear that that sort of thing might happen is exactly the kind of reason why you might want to be able to have contacts with Russia that cannot be surrounded by the
certain government itself now the particular wrinkle here work, but caution I wanted to do- was walk into the russian Embassy and use Russia's. Presumably Russia has some encrypted way of communicating back with Moscow that the american government can tap. I don't know what that would be by this. Usually the premise of the story is that such a system exists. Color was asking to use that it seems like the Russian said. No, because you don't let Americans into your secret communications facilities because they might hope, as I have suggested by these Europe Minister figure. They might be spying on you. I mean a deeper mystery of this. Is that I have an app on my phone call signal that provides encrypted communications around the world without me going to the rest, an embassy- maybe they never heard. I'm a Trump team, but this is actually a very solve takes out of reportedly been using it.
I ain't, this story that we have about the russian embassy went like that story ends with a secure channel not being established right. What we don't know is whether somebody then subsequently said like hey dummy like this is you're. Making this way too complicated like you, can just like hit Putin up on. What's up and so it's possible what we don't know within the bridge right between this transition meeting the effort to set up the secure channel, and it doesn't have Ben and then there's this post transition sanctions talk that seems like it gets scuttled and what we do have a clear picture of is, with some other channel less dopey than Jerry Kuznets walks into the russian embassy successfully established. This is weird story about the Seychelles, where I guess air Prince the black water guy went. But all
Clogging dagger self is odd to me, because it would be fairly easy to establish unencrypted communications channel between Michael Flynn and some high ranking russian officials if they like bothered to like Google for free minutes about. What's a good way to do this, and we don't yet you know if they ever pulled that off when they would use it for Something that I feel and I'm not like a national, scarcely fruit of any kind in into some degree the scandalous doesn't really depend on what the ultimate and game is like. No one actually knows why Nixon, why the Watergate, Breakin or if he did, or if you debtors, ordered. At her I mean that there is a peace buyer by drew Sanchez, that a Cato observe arguing that, from the Russians point of view like, it collusion on election tampering doesn't make a lot of sense, that is, to serve to high risk for them relative term to gesture of passively hacking and and hoping that you can.
Can influence things, and so I dont know what people are expecting to find here. I think there are certain like the extreme Louise Mench, like you, were gonna, find out the truth. is a literal, Fsp be agent version, which seems clearly false, and it seems like we're looking at those more likely in the realm of to serve ordinary corruption like financially, wins than it is in the realm of compromise. Why did we really dont know? I mean Andrew mention just this question of the forms. I mean that the problem. Is that when you start getting yourself involved and stuff that you know you're in some says not supposed to be doing and you're trying to cover your tracks, which seems like they clearly were you often break some rules and the rules that you broke off enough them. Selves super suit, like Elliot Spencer, right, went down ultimately, because human
violated some rule about structuring of rank account deposits, Bologna Oyster, went down because the pudding, the wrong amount into his jacket. Right but like the Dennis Hazards, scandal is the sexual abuse of the boy is, even though the law breaking is like a kind of obscure bank regulation so you know the kind of jeopardy like a legal jeopardy that people might be an unlike the skin listen. Nature of the conduct are somewhat separate, but questions yet, and I think one other thing that we should at least mention here is the administration is claiming that a lot of these contacts with Russia during the transition were motivated with a policy goal of improving ties with Russia or making some sort of deal with Russia. That would help with the serious situation. This has been a long time interest of
Michael Flynn's, for whatever reason at it, is something that he was pushing for very hard, that his his sort of big idea on how to reshape american foreign policy was to get closer with shot and to sort of turn more of the blind eye to what Assad was doing and dumb and in target ISIS more than make some sort of deal with rest of the to fight ISIS. So it is at least possible that Flynn was Talking to russian officials about this during the transition. But the role of Jared Kirshner in this is a little more strange. He yes, is close to tramp he's the son in law, he that this was sort of even before he had this enormous portfolio in the administration, where he was tasked with everything from solving the opium oil prices to Middle EAST peace.
So it's not really clear why he would be involved with this stuff. I mean that's what I think you know exists troubling Emily such a storm cloud for Donald Trump. Personally. Is that one way scandal sometimes go right. Is they sort of IRAN Contra direction where the scandal is bad, but at the same time you end up basically like lopping off, just like a portion of the senior staff and saying, like those guys fucked up We have a president who, like clearly has Alzheimer's and is not respond. Split away from actually has some of that same quality right I mean if you heard about some contentious new initiative that was coming out of the education department. You would not say, like obvious, that must have been workshop
did the highest numbers in the White House is super plausible, that, like senior Trump administration, officials are freelancing on one thing or another Flynn was fired quite some time ago, so you you could have imagined they version of the story where it's like roads lead to Michael Flynn. Michael Flynn got caught message. Something up got fired. Democrats are always gonna. Think, like there was more to the story, but who now was dared Kirshner is not for nothing. He hasn't been fired. He has only gonna, seemingly an upward trajectory in terms of its actual influence in the government. Since this transition period, when Flynn got fired, customer was not also fired. It really me,
it seem like not a freelancing story, but that whatever it is Flynn was doing, he was doing truly at the behest of Donald Trump, which is why his son in law was there, as like. A marker of personal involvement, which would be a logical person to talk to the Russians because he had relationship with them, but you don't? You want to make it clear that like, do you have a of realigning? You send? You know up a family emissary to these kind of things, as our trump likes to do that this kind of business it was. It was Jared Kirshner who came with them, not the national security adviser, but commissioner came with him into the room to meet with baby Netanyahu. You know he's like a kind of a shadow trump out there and we don't know what the story is, but whatever the story is, I think it's gonna be hard to say. Oh well, that was Jared. I had nothing to do with salute stricken with if the plan was to implement
a sort of controversial Trump initiative to till Cosy up to the Russians and hopes of of Align, with aside to a certain degree and combining to fight ISIS like that failed rearing but tat you were Flynn was fired Ray and you know what he was gone pretty much, no one else in the national security stagnation, wanted to do this. What what's interesting, though, is that took on one level pivoted away from this whole policy, but like another level has now right. I mean it
striking that Donald Trump fired Michael for him, he established a normal republican, HAWK farm policy. Tm banish has like stationed. U S. Troops in the baltic stuff like that, but like Trump, would not give the article five endorsement that his own advisers were saying he was gonna. Give he won't just like throw us a bone and be like Vladimir Putin is a bad guy like I don't agree with that when he kills dissidents, and Trump keeps like saying that Flynn is like a good man who got a raw deal on this. They are apparently having now or to give back the spy compounds that the Obama administration see it's like the one topic on which Trump appears to be swimming against the current of his own of like everything, the political reality of United States of the team
that he has semi built around him, but his sword have been forced on him is like every margin. Donald Trump personally seems to be shifting things into more of a like: hey. Can we get along with Russia? He can we stop. You know carrying water for these european allies and its main iron or to say about it, then that is odd and he also seems to have to touch the Suez you a bit like you didn't like router bomb Assad, we're getting rich, just like a rather big copy prevention, I mean actually his affection for Russia has become untempered Rome. This specific policy, because I mean, if you break it, everything else in the american universe. Just like the basic idea of the civil war is super complicated and instead of playing this incredibly complicated game, we should play a simple game where we work with us.
fight ISIS, I don't know everyone. I trust. I am not an expert on this. Everybody seems to think that a bad idea. I can certainly see how someone who didn't know that much about it would think that was a good idea, but look at any these convoluted maps of Syria and I think that notion will suggest itself to you and then you would take a lengthy explanation of why that's a bad idea. The bigger picture idea that, just like the american government should like say nice things about where boot and all the time and like maybe undermine the NATO alliance that I dont see as suggested by anything right like that's, really weird idea, the trumpets stuck with even as the Syria mission Signal completely fallen apart Jane. I think I m one other pieces that that me dear little suggestive that this is not really about what they're saying it's about. The serious thing is that an trump has just been really trying to stick up for Flynn. Defend Flynn tried to
kill the investigation into flan primarily wants to be higher, Yes, you have to wonder voices, he wishes get out and back in the White House. What's this is our cleared up, and I think one explanation of this is that Donald Trump really personally likes Michael Flynn. thinks he's a good guy and then there's another pretty obvious explanation that Michael Flynn is under a lot of investigative scrutiny right now. It is not clear what he knows about Trump, if anything that maybe incriminate so there's a pretty obvious boat is that goes beyond trance personal affection for Flynn for him to be doing all this stuff, messing with the investigation, sending Flint a message that says: stay strong, so what they were. The only time will tell
ok, I think we'll get we're gonna wrap it up with that, Andrew Effort for coming on thanks Dylan Fur we're having his back. We could probably solve this whole Russia problem by giving ever on a flat monthly check, funded with them revenue yeah, exactly adsense how they do in Alaska. Thanks for producer, Peter Leonard thanks. You for four listening check out the Facebook group. If you haven't already are you should join? If you haven't already we're gonna be starting up a new white paper club, so people can. so the joining in the discussion that we have on our are Wednesday research papers? It's really cool, you can enjoy. It share the package with with friends, family but ones at random, strangers. Social media followers everyone- and we will see you next week-
Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.