Jane, Dara, and Matt on queer politics after marriage equality.
"Before Stonewall" by Jane Coaston, MTV News
"My Mayor Pete Problem" by Dale Peck, New Republic
"Last Men Standing" by Erin Allday, SF Chronicle
"You Wanted Same-Sex Marriage? Now You Have Pete Buttigieg." by Shannon Keating, BuzzFeed
"The Struggle for Gay Rights Is Over" by James Kirchick, Atlantic
Census & LGBT Demographic Studies Archive, The Williams Institute
Matt Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior Correspondent, Vox
Jane Coaston (@cjane87), Senior politics correspondent, Vox
Dara Lind (@DLind), Immigration reporter, ProPublica
More to explore:
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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no, no, no, no, no musical, interludes, here
hello, welcome to another episode of the weeds on the box media podcast network, I'm Matthew, Glacia here with Darylin Jane cost,
and we were not going to talk about people to judge exactly. But we thought that this sort of end of people to judges presidential campaign was an interesting opportunity kind. It takes stock of where algebra Ciccu Politics is in America, because there was a very historic moment. It was to have a gay candid
but also historic in the fact that numerous people who voted for him did not know he was gay despite him being gay and married, and also it was the stork in its relative to everything else about people edged relative so that its unimportance. The fact that this is a gay married man who had a husband campaign to cross the country we had peat in the weeds. There was great, he was very nice. This husband is also very nice but like when people talk about mare peat and why they supported or opposed him.
Him being gay was like never mention. Lately, I mean even even more to the point during a pre election campaign that was explicitly
electability much more than it was about any actual policy proposal or historical or like differences in candidates, records budaj
ran a campaign on a very robust idea of what made him more electable than the rest of the field, and it was persuasive to a lot of voters, especially in Iowa
right, which is not known for being like the deepest blue state of the early states.
Let's not even despite the fact that he was gate like it wasn't there wasn't a oh, I think he's electable because he's young and he has a certain kind of rhetorical scale, but I'm worried that the gayness will be written in that, even as there were
that kind of you know, reticence for some of the other. You know there was some concern about. You know Joe Biden.
Age, Bernie, Sanders equity centres, Jewishness Elizabeth Warrens, ADA, Elizabeth Warrant, being a woman. Even when someone
Things were implicit, they were still there and you didn't even see that kind of reticence of I'm worried. The people less courting quote in a war
Then I am are going to vote against this man because he's gay edged it wasn't. It was
it was like it would really was the dog that didn't are and further. I mean if you, if you look up the diva Brooklyn and Drum collar article on vocs added stirred the pot about Bernie Sanders is Elect
the headline conclusion there was about Bernie, but that, but the survey result was that peat was, I mean he obviously did not win the democratic nomination overcome all that close, but that among the general public he had the highest favourable ratings and the best eligibility performance. And it's such a contrast to look. Obviously Barack Obama proved to be a very successful politician and a highly electable.
Central candidate, but his campaign from day one through to the day he left. The White House was dogged by racial eyes, conjurers every step of the way and on both sides I mean he benefited from an unpaid
It ended black turn out surge. I'm he's an iconic figure in african american communities, but
so, from Calorie Clinton's primary campaign against him was there were constantly questions of racist dog whistles. There was a lot of what people want vote for a black eye, and is that you saying you wouldn't the republican reaction. The birth
stuff, Donald Trump's whole rise, and when Elizabeth Warren dropped out right, there were like.
Dreams of anguish. From mostly white professional women who had washed Warren lose had watched. Hillary Clinton lose
and our like, is our time ever going to come, and I didn't hear that from from beam impedes gave faint hearted mean he had to track.
Among more left wing activists, activist gay people, but like
I know lots of gay men in particular, who were budgie donors who are quite enthusiastic about his campaign. They wished he had one, but they weren't like personally crushed by his defeat because
even though him being gay had been, I think for them personally, what it initially put him on it,
radar. It wasn't significant to the way the campaign played out. It was right topic that speaks to something that's been interesting to observe as part of the energy community as it exists.
Can anything get into what that even mean. Because one of the challenge, I think, for a lot of people. I still have this moment like when I was at the human rights campaigner
I will speak trader and I remember the day the Berger fell decision came down his eye.
Married about a month and a half beforehand and the day of that decision. My dad called me and afterwards was
oh well, you can come back to Ohio now, which was adorable and also not going to happen. I'm sorry, Ohio, it's just not going to happen, but even in that time, since two thousand and fifteen two thousand and fifteen is not that long ago, two thousand and fifteen, but in court
decisions, and I think in the american understanding of marriage. Equality was a million years ago and even
I mean by the time a burger fell came out like it was more of a caps.
Right and it was a kind of path, burning decision,
right because Eagle assumption was the America had already been won over to get to marriage equality, opinion change that has taken place even since two thousand age, even
and twenty eleven. When Obama said that he could have had he changed his mind on the issue. The opinion change was massive, but I think for a lot of people, their understanding of what to Elsie BT people what was largely based, especially for people outside of the that world. It was based on like ok, marriage like that makes sense and is part of
Andrew Sullivan and a host of other people generally gay men we're talking about marriage as an issue in the nineteen nineties when it seemed unimaginable, absolutely unimaginable. You were just out of the very
need dear of the AIDS epidemic in the early nineties, you're starting to get the approval of antiretrovirals. I e the height of the AIDS epidemic, what I mean than they dear of the panic and shame and death that took place. I was just re reading something about the AIDS crisis and the degree to which it is not just about algebra Chee people, but it was about just AIDS and the pressure that that put on the on the community, specifically on
and for people in the early nation. I used to start considering something beyond that: a life beyond that. You start saying people talking about marriage, but it is an effort that is believed to be something that's kind of like this is a part of a larger fight. This is a part of
a fight for full equality in full inclusion and then for
a lot of people observing their like. Well, you one marriage. So now what was really interesting is right. After the marriage decision came out. I remember that at each or see there are a lot of people who kind of early
yeah. I've been working on this issue for fifteen years,
and now I can finally move on to something else. So some people left the organization to go do something else. There is kind of an idea like well, we did that and then you have a lot of other people who are trans, for whom
or who are queer or for whom your marriage was not the be all
end all of the the fight for full inclusion, full full equality who, like hang on a second like yeah, we
the marriage decision, but want YO a Supreme Court ruling. Does not a sweeping change of the american electorate make but also elderly people
still at risk of being fired in more than twenty states in this country. For being LGBT the idea of what the whole fight was over, I think really different from person to person, and I think so that you see when you see kind of less landing queer people talking about Mayor PETE, out, link some pieces in the show notes that talk about this issue is that when you are not all under the thumb of a singular type of oppression, it turns
out that you don't have that much in common, sometimes with other people within your community, when you dont have the commonality of being like well, these people all hate us. There are still people who are deeply passionately, homophobic and transfer back, and I think Transphobia and the impact that and the impact of hate and prejudice against Trans people is an issue that the El Gb
has not not handled well, but for a lot of people. If you Larry Kramer and the people who got involved in organizations like act up, there was a sense that aids necessity
political involvement. Let me play house yes, who is
Kramer and what is up Larry Kramer
a long time. Gay rights activists from the nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties and act up was a radical gay rights group that was fighting for funding and fighting for recognition of the impact of HIV.
I recommend how to survive a play, a guess, yeah. You will learn more yes, and you will be very sad because the degree to which that was just such a shambolic sham, but the idea that this is a moment for political movement and local movement on the specific issues. But if you look
the goals of early age, our sea or the victory fund, or early homosexual political
mobilizing in the nineteen eighties. Their goals are like. We would like it to be okay for gay people to be teachers, because there were efforts on a state by state basis, including in Florida and California, to make it illegal for gay people to be teachers. We want gay people to be able to receive their partners and hospitals, and just the immense progress has been. I can't even use words to describe
how much that change has impacted my life, the lives of so many other people, but you do kind of have a moment of like okay. Now what do we want? But what's up?
been interesting about. It is not just progress because we've seen rapid progress or change on a lot of issues, but is the relative lack of post hoc resistance
to these change, swayed which have all been resisted at the front end. But
There has been no significant backlash, a shrine.
There is no move to undo marriage equality.
To the point where I found out. I don't ask, don't tell it right also- and this is especially relevant if we're talking about the Buddha Judge campaign, because if you do the chronology here, you know people
age served in the military when he himself was closeted. At least you know in public
during the time of donuts? Don't tell him, it really does say something that he was then able to use his military
background and his eyes.
Member of a stable
Loving household with my husband and both of these were seen as all american credentials when in fact, a decade earlier, they would have cut
and teacher, but you also need it makes the continued political mobilization difficult when don't have shown how was repealed. That was a difficult legislative. Five right after it was repealed
when Republicans regained unified control of government in twenty seventeen, absolutely nobody thought. Okay, Donald Trump is going to sign a law reinstating the donation,
hell policy and there was no consideration of doing that, even like Trump never tried to bring back Medicare privatization, but there were articles about it. People asked Paul Ryan Naval
is a process for the session, so it is like it is in the air. The conservative movement clearly would still like to do that, but they have concerns about the politics. It's not that there are no homophobic people in America, but it was quite
genuinely no organised political movement to take game. Lesbian soldiers back out of the military, and so it's me they they did it
refocused on Trans soldierly. That's the real issue here, which has been a word
hilarious moment to see unless you are what roughly four and a half
fears old ever think to broadcast, in which case I am very impressed, but you remember the time before Roberta fell when we heard a lot specifically from like social conservatives, that marriage was like the fight of our time. People like Maggie Gallagher in Brighton Brown, became household names in certain households for their opposition to marriage, equality and June.
Twenty nine th, two thousand and fifteen suddenly was like. Oh we've moved on we're libertarians on that, but the real focus is transition, but it's essentially been a route I mean I don't want to downplay. Obviously, the real problems facing Trans people, but, in contrast to other political issues, it has just consisted of the right-
falling back to new, more defensible positions
No, no counter offensive,
I mean, there's no and even the concept. I think that the counter offensive, if I had to make the argument, is the issues of religious freedom, and so you seen conservatives being okay, we're we're to take this to the courts, as they view LGBT people
to take it to the court. They think that Lamb, the legal and a host of other groups basically took marriage. Aunt state by state a Supreme Court case in Iowa ruled that marriage
body was legal. Like two thousand nine- and so the biscuit, ok we're going to take the same strategy. So that's where you're saying kind of the focus on these specific cake, decorators, something that the religious freedom argument, but it has been entered,
Thing to see that, even for the farthest right, the idea that we would see a challenge to a burger fell or even the return of aid with sweeping. Don't ask don't tell policy, because I think that some people don't realize that don't ass dont tell was a compromise. Rack, don't ask, don't tell was like the best possible option. Bill Clinton could think of it the time, because the alternative was what existed for about fifty years, which was the drumming out of thousands of gays and lesbians, frown suspected case Nancy
they re lesbians from the military and civil service, more widely read, but the lavender panic. If you have it's a book, called the lavender scare that super super, yet without also about Midcentury Washington generally and Frank Kommeni hero, so
What we're describing here in extreme shorthand is kind of the White collar routes,
of the gay liberation movement. I think that there's been a very firm many reasons.
Some of which have to deal with like the kind of iconic nature of it, some of which have to do with the politics of it. The gay movement has claimed stone. Wall is like the birthplace
like the moment where gay rights was born, and it's true that that's the
moment when what had been a fairly white collar
moderately assimilation is movement discovered a radical like that that there is a put possible possibility for
politically engaged radicalism, but building off this kind of the time which was co with the red red, not coincidentally, of like Washington bureaucrats, who were gay, gay or lesbian or who were just like worried that they might come off that way having to fear for their careers, because if you are in the civil,
service you don't really have a lot of non government apparatus in the government is like really trying very hard to root out any homosexuals both for lake. You know red blooded, American, this reason
and under the logic that, if you have any secrets, the Soviet Union will be able to turn you as a spy, because it can black
hell you so now you have these otherwise, very typical. If you're
listen to the weeds. You probably if you don't know somebody who works for the federal government, you can picture the kind of white collar civil service work for the federal government going. It would be really nice if we were able to just live our lives
like normal people, like the normal people that we are, and so you have this early, organizing against trunkful termination of employment, but also a kind of
for dignity and that suit
wearing a you know. Orderly protest mould,
of the early wrangle rights protests because it was based in the same lake. We should just be recognized as normal people
and then with stone wall. This idea,
of a more radical queer politics kind of breaks into the discourse as well.
Those two strands are kind of present. To this day. In the question of you is PETE Budaj Edge, a trailblazer because he's a gay man
or is he a you know, white due to went to Harvard and a stable household and the fact that that household has another man. It is like not actually super relevant drain and I think it is important that this split
and this divide has been within the community. I wrote a piece about it when I was that MTV, but the magazine society, which began in nineteen fifty and this kind of the first Gay rights group. They themselves were split by this very question because a lot of the member, while they were basically accused of being all
rampant communist, allowing people within it we're just like- were basically normal state straight laced,
in democratic others were in fact, come on, others were, and they were saying like no and it L came down to this question of I've got a quote from a professor. I spoke with
saying that many members of the society were like they want homosexuality to be viewed as a natural variation in human sexuality, nothing more nothing less, and then you would,
other members, were like no queer. People are different. We should do things differently. Marriage is not for us. This is not for us and that of
It's been around for sixty seventy years now, so, let's take a break, and then I want to talk about solidarity and sort of how it plays into this. Yes, if you're a gig worker or
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It is clear and is different and the more assimilation dislike variation and he may sexuality school does tell us
About the kind of place of trans people in Trans politics inside the
Gee movement like it's really wild to me, because, as somebody growing up in a fairly conservative part of America,
like in the one three right yeah in the pre gay marriage era, like my first exposure to transness, was through the
literature of mainstream gay rights groups like each our sea and like to get their insistence on Energy B, T as the nature of
their movement, it didn't seem super obvious or unnatural,
We need not necessarily knowing the history, because it seemed that the concerns of trans people.
Would necessarily be different from concerns based on sexual orientation and, like you, learn in at once. You understand
the strain of algae BT, politics that treats queerness as the binding force
then you start understanding how people could feel not just like a social we're all in this together. Solidarity, but like
There is something naturally similar in us but like. If you don't see that as a thing, then your only options are are to say. Look, these really are separate questions in separate movements and like no,
to you, but leg. I will support you
not as I would support myself or to look solidarity requires that. I see this as part of my struggle in that I I have a theory of change that says that if your rights are threatened minor,
principally going to be frightened the attic, and so we ve seen tat. We ve seen that because I'm saying we because I feel very much that this applies
me and my family, because it does, but we ve seen time and time again that at a certain point like it's, not as if, when trans people are threatened or trans identity is threatened, that they're like ok, these people are bad, but you're. Fine, no none of us are none
the people who think that trends in this isn't real or is some sort of illness, or something like that. There are not looking at peat and chastened marriage and thinking like that's fantastic. That's not what their thinking all of this to me, it seems to me I swear I staunchly
believe and cross group solidarity. While recognising that I thought about this a lot as a gay married person, because a lot of people on there's a website against equality that has a ton of writing on this from a far left perspective about how marriage should not be the goal, how marriages in the way of the goal of full night? It's not a quality! Exactly but full expression- and I recognise that- but also the fact that I could I could make the decision to get married or not, or just like straight people who doesn't know we're like we ve, been together for twenty years, we're not gonna get married. I also wanted to be able to hypothetically say that, though I got married, real quick to us.
Just ideological concepts in play. Right, like sure I grew up in Greenwich Village, a gay neighbourhood at a time of a lot of gay political militancy. Lord,
Lee around HIV Aids, but extending to many other topics.
I am not gay. I do not have gay family
Abbott Weekly new lots of gay people neighbours. Things like that. I was
Wish I went to Reform Synagogue in the area was called the village temple
there were many gay congregants there.
But also there was an ideology of left wing reform Jewishness, which held that jewish interests in the United States were inherently tat,
two principles of secular government, an too
vision of the civil rights movement and that it
time in the nineties in New York, there was considerable tension between
orthodox Jews and the Dickens Administration around Ray
issues. There were various controversies around act up and gay activism, and
The view of that kind
Gregation that I went to was that we
we're all in it. Together on an idiotic,
a vote as we as we talked about in the anti Semitism episode. The orthodox community, just like, has a different view of this right, like on all kinds of different levels in part stemming from the fact that I being theological
traditional Aztec, extending solidarity to algae BT. People doesn't make sense to that end,
an alliance with evangelical Christians and a kind of corporatist group rights, make
but like the strand of religious tradition and the place,
time that I grew up in promulgated. A certain vision of this and it's interesting to look at Andrew Sullivan, who is
such an intellectually influential figure in the marriage equality movement and is somebody who always said that he was a conservative right who was gay and who had this view, but at the height of the strong,
he often seemed like he was a fake conservative. You know I mean like he was saying: I'm a conservative, but because, like he had all these left wing
opinions like just about marriage equality, but about how the Bush administration's torture regime was terrible about how
Obama was good about how there was a questionest etiology, infecting the amount
right and he would always say just as Bill Crystal today would say that his empty trump stick reflects true conservative
Andrew said that his thing was the true conservative vision and what,
Interesting is that, since marriage equality was achieved,
Andrew has become a much more conventional conservative right right, as the conservative movement has not only accepted up. I can't even pronounce Abacha felt is that
feel the concern
has not only accommodated itself to that right, but like at one point, Jesse Helms
the Republicans wouldn't let Bill Clinton appointed openly gay and bastard a luxembourg which is like who cares now? The Trump administration wants to slot in a wildly unqualified gay man to be the director of national intelligence and like to the extent that can
lives have a problem with that. It is neither gives out wildly unqualified and they don't even have a big problem with that right. So if it's now, it's like, if, if you are gay but are willing to be a conservative, the conservative movement is happy to have you on. The team and Andrew is increasingly happy to be on the team and he's incredibly critical of the Trans Rights movement of courting quote boldness in general. Right, it's a real politics of of anti solidarity.
And he feels their different from my nineties reform. Jewish, it illogical concepts, but there is a modern day it illogical concept of solidarity, which holds that gay rights, Trans rights, women's rights, immigrant rights, are all part of a seamless web that we all need to fight together and like Andrews. A thing.
Her and a writer right like he is. He is opposed to that like that is very much a like. We have successfully advanced our particularist claim and
that's the I mean I want to go to dig into the modern solidarity that you point you, because I think this is, to a certain extent what we ve been
about in the gay rights kind of like the after marriage reckoning and the LGBT movement has come at the same time as there's been a turn especially
lay among younger progressives, especially among kind of lake
movement type types away from the way the Democratic Party and
Progressive movement were thought of twenty thirty years ago, which was that they were this big ten of lake particular interest groups that all had their particular agenda isn't like had
band together to get somebody into power. Who would then advance things on all of these different log, rolling Cole, yeah exactly and what that actually led to was a massive traffic gym legislatively at the beginning of any democratic administration, as everybody was like okay, so the fact that you
So in two thousand and twelve latino voters were given an initial credit for Barack Obama's reelection victory and that meant immigration reform. We go first in two thousand and thirteen that's a clear cause and effect arrow. That, I think, is that I don't
think exists anymore in the internal politics of the Democratic Party in like on the left
or generally because there
the generation at at this point of people who have come up in the idea that our struggles are intrinsically connected to each other, and so both looking specifically
policy intersectionalities and understanding, for example, the ways in which Lake Health care Access has to be an LGBT issue
because, for example, of gender for me,
surgeries and that sort of thing being covered that home housing has to be
to be the issue right eyes of the probability that a young algae B, T T elected the red and ultimately teenager. If they come out to their parents, will get kicked off. It kicked out and end up on the streets that, like both the both these kind of specific recognition of hey, this is going to be especially helpful to us because of our other identities, but also in this broader sense that if they come after one of us, they'll come after us- and rightly sometimes, this has been expressed in the Trump era and Lake ways
are in practice. Anti solider Aztec, like there have been a lot of white women and white gay men who have kind of assumed that there the things that they
consider most important our waters, what is most vulnerable and not necessarily like doing the three sixty and looking
you know I definitely I
I know you like people,
in the fire island seen who are like wildly frustrated at the extent to which, like anti politics, has become a new normal right, because you know if you're, not necessarily, if you think that you're going to be threatened.
Really bad happens just because your marginalize and then you're, not frightened. You may think that no one is threatened, but there is also a way that it has become a very powerful tool for you know when we were discussing this view weeks ago with regard to immigration activists. Yet you know climate activists, algae BT activists like a lot of these are in practice the same people now they're showing up to the same stuff. They understand the agenda to be the same, and that has been a very powerful kind of political movement binding agent. That's also made it very hard to pick off any part of the coalition. You can
the Gulf members of a group that sees itself as one particular agenda rise. Then you can co op parts of that agenda or you can just mooted as an issue, as conservatives have done with lake with same sex marriage. What you can do is persuade a generation of activists that thinks that generates meanness.
If you don't respect the idea that black lives matter, you can't like give them
Granel and Milo Anopolis and say hey. We love the news right when I was at Hrc. I was there during Ferguson and the reaction to the death of Michael Brown and
We were debating about putting out a statement and we did and in the response we learned something important, which was that like
we had a lot of members who appeared to be gay cops and were very mad at us. I think that that something
on one of the challenges- and I think my has talked about this before- is that sometimes when you see what these big organizations, the people at those organizations and the people who are members of that organization are two different kinds of people, but I think a larger issue is we have yet
and I think that this is a challenge in the media and just a challenge of visibility in general. For example, the state, with the most same sex couples raising children, is Mississippi roughly twenty five percent of same sex couples in the state of Mississippi are raising children and that's a massive issue, because Mississippi and a lot of other states have had issues with adoption laws that mean that a birth parent and their partner, mainly
have the same legal relationship with their children, which could get very ugly in the case of a divorce or in other scenarios, especially with regard to health care. That's a big issue, and so I think that there is a sense with some gay people that, like your marriage, was their fight and now
has been achieved in they're out and everything else in their lives is okay, but with respect to how they and the people they care about, are
you'd, but for a lot of other people within this coalition. That's not true. Homophobia and transphobia dont particularly care about how much money you have or where you live or what you do, and I think it's worth recognising that that solidarity not necessarily having the same interests, because that's impossible, but recognising that the people who come for some of us would come for the rest of us if they could, and I think that you have that something. I very much believe- and I think about a lot in terms of my understanding of my place in this community, which is I'm a very soon
he'd queer. You know him stay at home queer, but I think that the people who came before me the people who were members of the matters in society and the people who yelled at members of the medicine society. All of those people were part of this community that recognised they're, both singular nature and the opposition, and they faced ethic that that still true today,
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C y c, o r p dot org. We have today get information or get information, the effects of high information environments on legislative Alex.
So mad you're ready to get information. No, no, no, no, no musical interludes here are visible baby. I think this gets it an intuition that a lot of people here of which is that politics has become
nationalized nationalized and it is maybe has to do with the media it has,
interesting way. They look at the sort of rollout of broadband internet in the early odds and what he shows is that there's broad trends that we have seen in american politics during this period that relate to
a decline in ticket splitting so you're more likely to vote at the bottom of the ballot. The similar you do at the top and
lately decline in incumbency advantage ride so that the it used to be that, like you, might decide, Donald Trump is
add? But you still really like and respect Susan Collins, because she's been in your community
when this that the other thing- and we have now seen fewer and fewer people able to pull off that kind of stuff.
Collins like politics, you may be the end of the road for Susan Collins, and so we know that's been happening, and what tresler shows is that those changes come first to the places that get fast internet access, breast, which
suggests that it is the changes in media. Diet that are driven by digits is also taken that drive that sort of increasing nationalization of every candy reference that people with better access to broadband are less likely to view local news media, which I think that
see just anecdotally and people, for whom I mean that also one you're, seeing a decline of
we'll news media anyway, but also as he discusses in this new there thinking about content that is predominantly about national politics. There looking towards the New York Times there looking towards vocs, there are looking towards
what's with a national viewpoint, and I think one will you saw this, that that is outside the scope of his research right, but is that their use
to be like tons of conventional wisdom built up around the Iowa carcasses and their linkage to ethanol politics in it. Just didn't come up,
in twenty twenty candidates had Iowa related strategy is the peculiar demographics of the I will.
This is where a really big deal, in the sense that it is both a wider
and also younger than you see that
The primary but like nobody was talking about be watching him at this specific demographic composition of Iowa, but about the specific situation
in Iowa, there was no big ethanol gacek. People didn't have like odes too high
does corn syrup, and it is one that the demographics of Iowa like yes, you know people were talking about the the youngest of the coffee scores
in the sense of like oh, that means that there is
be a lot more pressure on Canada struck about student loan forgiveness, rather
The sense of we know-
Various people have various theories of what candid it will be most nationally viable depending on their own identity. It turned in
you ok, we were we're going to have a state wide focus. Group of who do, you think, is the most nationally viable candidates. Wait any- and you know so so trust or mentions this. This old idea in political science effort from a guy named Richard, I think, fellow and is called home style politicians and you down to a point where of nationally prominent figures right, listen, we're Caskey and Joe Mansion
are like the last of the homes style. Politicians rightly they are weird. They have personal listing loyalty. Is you know that there are not about national politics? They
They always always get what they want, but they always go asking for for if any
trying legalism, Rakowski anytime. You see her in the National NEWS. It's almost always because of something to do with Alaska the urban which she represents right. You would think
that that would be, but they used to be very normal right. It used to be that a guy like Corey Gardener, whose, like out their wrapping a bluish state, needs one for reelection, would be talking constantly
about peculiar Colorado, related situation. Swayed you know, like ski rock allows or or who knows, and any just most of politics is not.
Like that. Any more very plausibly, because not that many people are reading locally focus news and and this just sort of instruments it in you know a kind of more clever, more
Europe's way, then my kind of hand, waving and what's interesting, is that the political system, I think, to function as we sort of think of it
requires more of that. Localism and more of that home style politics right, because if you
add more tickets, bloody. You would have more cross. Pressured members, you'd have more people who might say film
tromp was up to with his hotels, like that, doesn't seem so right to be weighed end like Congress as a body that has its own concerns, separate from
ship, but if voters only care about national partisanship, then of course the elected officials will also only care binational partisanship and all this
for that institutional prerogatives and separation of powers and like what's corrupt in what isn't
and it goes out the window because it's just you know like it's. It's just team sport.
The other phenomenon that I think this paper really brings into focus for me is like we occasionally talk about the
eyes of earmarks, as both a you know, cause and effect of the nationalization of congressional politics, because they
That is an easy thing you could deliver locally to your district or to certain stakeholders who like happened to be over represented in your district, and that you could then
get rounds of earned media off of not so it's interesting to think about the
technology of this because the
of earmarks happens really as this or like even towards the
and of the widespread adoption of broadband internet. So the benefit disappear
the benefit of having local earned media out of earmarks disappears and then the earmarks themselves disappear and then the.
That somebody can go into your office and ask you for that's different from
a similarly situated position like instead
of a major state university needing to lobby you to get like a lab there there,
To be lobbying you for exactly the same things that all other universities are lobbying you for so the major
players in terms of who is going to be trying to seek influence and giving financial support to any given congressional candidate, now very much less from district to district, because what they can get doesn't matter as much and with and what they can get doesn't matter as much because the member of Congress isn't going to do something just to get a few nice minutes on a local news broadcasts. It run ribbon, cutting ceremony, re ethics, something else that this goes into, that I found us
as you mentioned, mansion and work, how ski this paper gets into the incumbency advantage with that you, when you're in office it's easier to stay in office and it gets it does broadband internet does access to bribe benefiting? Does that national safety of information decrease the incumbency advantage and found it? Yes, it does not, as it says, attenuate two zero, but the your when you go to the ballot box as
put points out without very specific localised information on how you, the mayor of your city or how this city council members performed. But you are doing so. You are going to the ballot box by thinking. I need to vote for a democratic, because I oppose Donald Trump or any devote for Republican to stand up for Donald Trump and it's interesting because you're starting to see in NASH and state level politics how closely people are linking themselves to national figures. Obviously Alabama is a very specific situation, but were in the midst of a run off election between former bad college. Football. Coach Tommy, Tankerville and Jeff sessions and the entire campaign is, who loves, trot more prove it right now,
and so did the first thing to see that that incumbency advantage, which I think in a lot of areas you you have people like the late John Dingle, who served the area of an Arbour Michigan and elsewhere for forty years. I would be interested to see as this we as we move forward. How much does that change or what I? What does the era of long time, politicos from a specific area who represent a specific district because they do things with specific districts? Does that start to change?
and I think another thing is that this nationalization changes the meaning of the mal apportionment of the Senate
right. What it used to mean was that the concrete material interests of low population, rural states, particularly on the planes, were over represented in Congress,
and so the most concrete manifestation of that is that the federal government runs a.
Fairly large programme to subsidize the production of staple agricultural crops right.
and it does not similarly subsidize fruit and vegetable cultivation and that's because fruit and vegetable cultivation is concentrated in just fired and California, which have low centre
presentation and a staple grains, are spread across a lot of low population states that wasn't
eight. You know it's like you ask any expert like. Is this a good idea? And there was no it's a waste of money. It's unhealthy. Was it like a huge deal, no even mean that give you just
It was something like people from the corn belts like they wanted corn, and so they got it, and it was no, you know,
could get on their high horse about it, but, like it wasn't the aegis. It wasn't a big deal now that politics has become more national, more symbolic, more de materialised. What it means is that the idiot, logical world view of rural white people is greatly over represented in national. Politics is very hard for Democrats to be competitive in those places at all. They can just out bid
Republicans in terms of of local goodies and leader of the cross pressure between, on the one hand, we like handouts to rural areas, but also Republicans are like opposed to the government doing things, and so in its
very different. It's now like conservativism, is over represented in the Senate, rather than we're all interests and eat. It's become a much more. I think problematic thing that that the dog hasn't quite yet barked but were set up for an eventual situation in which Democrats win a landslide election and Republicans just have a majority in the Senate and, like nothing, can have
and there's a national political loggerhead, whereas in the past to democratic landside, we're just elected a lot of random planes. Democrats who would show up
and say like while we need essential air service subsidies, but like the guy,
would still go on, and now you know it's not clear that it does, because people don't really care about their local.
Ray. It's also been weird to see the amount of sailing like victim, blaring, badly
been a certain amount of focus on the end. Point of this process lay reporting
in fairly conservative communities themselves. Well,
These people, who would benefit from public services, still don't like public services or, conversely, these people generally don't like public,
services, but when it's their public services they like and defend them. The second situation isn't
like an unusual aberration, it's how people normally function,
voters normally function, it's how politicians have often functioned. The difference is now that the politicians are cross pressured against adopting the wishes of their constituents in, like the particular
text of oh. I guess I need this because it would help my district because
general they've been elected to defend against this sort of thing, and they know that if they continue to he to the party line, that's the best like end and their party continues to do well. That will help their that'll help their political career much more than trying to buck their party and hoping that they'll stay afloat. So it's just. I think it's worth thinking less about like
how do in this particular instance- and I had this, it is contrary were end up generally. So maybe I should be thinking about it more, but in this instance it seems less useful to think about how our vote
there is living out their ideologies or not or like what our voters asking that politicians to do.
and more about who are politicians listening to and how do they see their roles in terms of
representing an ideology versus representing a coalition versus representing a polity yeah, and I think that that's it that's a big shift that we aren't quite entirely prepared for, and I also think that that nationalization of politics it impacts who runs for office. You ve seen organizations like run for something recruiting. People to run at the local level generally have left, leaning or progressive candidates, and it's interesting to see YO yo.
We've seen this so many times in special elections rule there will be a specific candidate who gets a ton of national support and then they lose terribly and people are confused.
As to why and then you at look at the district you're like oh, this person was entirely
representative of the district or didn't even live in the district, or something like that, and so I think it's going to be it's going to take a while to see how politics and political science eventually catches up to this overarching change. That's taken
This will be part of the problem by obsessively listening to the weeds yeah recommending it tell your friends getting into the Facebook group where you can ignore local issues in favour of big picture national concepts add designed
of your particular ethnic identity, myself to a undifferentiated ideological. More. I love you. Ah, thanks to Jeff Gold and mark. I protest thanks to our sponsors and the weeds, we'll be back
Transcript generated on 2021-05-20.