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Out of sight, out of mind


Dara, Jane, and Matt explore how Trump “fixed” the asylum crisis.

Links to resources discussed:

“Trump's Asylum Policies Sent Him Back to Mexico. He Was Kidnapped Five Hours Later By a Cartel.” by Emily Green, Vice

“Letter to the Orlando Sentinel” by Zora Neale Hurston

“Student-Teacher Racial Match and Its Association With Black Student Achievement: An Exploration Using Multilevel Structural Equation Modeling” by Lisa M. Yarnell & George W. Bohrnstedt (white paper Matt referenced toward the end)

“School Desegregation and Black Teacher Employment” by Owen Thompson (white paper)


Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior correspondent, Vox

Jane Coaston (@cjane87),  Senior politics reporter, Vox

Dara Lind (@DLind), Immigration reporter, ProPublica

More to explore:

Subscribe for free to the Ezra Klein Show, a Vox podcast where Ezra brings you far-reaching conversations about hard problems, big ideas, illuminating theories, and cutting-edge research.

About Vox:Vox is a news network that helps you cut through the noise and understand what's really driving the events in the headlines.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeah. This is Marquez Brownie Acre and Cuba HD, and this is Andrew Manga Nellie. We will introduce you to our podcast way, form the new sedition to the Vocs media podcast network, so I've spent over ten years, reviewing tech products and consumer electronics for millions of people on the incubation, to channel and now on the way forward. Ass Andrew, and I use that experience to dig even deeper into latest tech for smartphones too. I max to electric cars. So if you're gadget lover or attack head or if you just want to figure out whether the latest gadget is worth your harder in cash, give us a lesson say can find way form the empty beefy podcast on your face Pakistan, every Friday see over there
welcome to another episode of the Weeds Ami Box, media podcast network Matthew Ecclesiastes here today with Jane Coastline and pro public as Darrow end, there is back from the border. Yes, indeed, areas in El Paso Arias and Brownsville Metamorphose last week, while you guys were in Seattle, yeah see allies, the same city, Thou at Seattle and El Paso, our yes quite different other within the hundred mile border perimeter, Indeed, you have BP jurisdiction. Ok, so I, like most people, had been paying less attention to the border saga. I felt like Lee hubbub around detention and stuff head
waned somewhat, and then I went to a housing conference as it my want, and I heard senator showing more computer there talking mostly about housing because it was housing conference. But then she got a question about something else. I actually in here with the question was but she pivoted to talking about the situation of the border, and she made the claim that, despite all the contentiousness that had happened earlier in the summer that things are on track and that they are working and that crossings are now way way way down, and she hopes that they can get the legal changes that Republicans in asking for for a long time, but that, as far as she is concerned, like this border security approach is working. And we are a it was. It was interesting thereafter Wednesday does yeah. You do any last Wednesday was like a really substantial inflection point: envy fight over the Trump administrations attempt to change asylum,
because the Supreme Court allowed the regulation that the Trumpet administration implemented and Jill tried to implement in July and like it got blocked by lower court judge another Supreme Court's Lenin it to go into effect. Vit makes anybody who travelled through another kind, free and didn't apply for and get denied asylum there ineligible asylum in the EU? S allows that to go into effect, so is it isn't surprisingly me. The senator computer was you know celebrating that, as as a kind of the capstone victory I do not know that that conversation took on exactly the same way. Had it happened on Tuesday the injunction was in place throughout the country, because that's what happened last week, because asylum law change like three times while I was at the boy, I bid her claim. That was that the crossings were down will substantially, which I assume she didn't mean, like the court
this fellow at the previous. Now that fair, yet so anyway, it was interesting to me, because I rarely here from Trump supporting politicians who are not trying to ape Donald Trump mannerisms. So he was an interesting like very calm, very professional presentation. That also was trying. Deliver a kind of message. You don't like see much from rum, which is like we did this thing and it was good and like it, it worked and I'm reclaiming Victor yeah, rather than like, and now you're going to be killed by immigrants. Yes and any energy may do you think that, like it's true that I have stopped hearing, some, like Normie Democrats, ripe and like what what has happened. So I do want to add one more little bit of political contacts which might help explain that tone of that, which is that last week was also when the Trump Administration was meeting with Mexico to kind of review. The deal that they
in early summer, and so there was definitely a certain incentive within any part of the Republican Party. That didn't want trump too, like go ape on terrorists with Mexico. To emphasise this, right now. We don't need Tariffs Mexico's doing what we want. Things are okay, we don't need to continue to escalate, so I suspect that that was all part of the message that centre computer receipt, but the fact of the matter is that the crossings really are substantially down from early this summer. That is not a typical for late summer versus early summer patterns, and so what's been a little bit difficult to tease out has been to what extent this is just people don't cross in the heat of summer, because it's the heat of summer verses. There is an actual change in the decision, calculus being made by immigrants or people are still trying to.
But Mexico a successful entered, dieting, intersecting contradicted in predicting Cosette was indicted, but but yes, that was my question is what is actually have, because I think that there is the conversation being had about people trying to be trying to seek asylum or people attempting to cross the border, but not really with the people. Attempting to do so, I know, there's been some really interesting the incoming from vice and elsewhere, about the ramifications. Yeah remain in Mexico and we don't have to get into all of that, but We really should get into it, because this is like the fundamental question on the central american asylum flow is the decision. Calculus ram of NBC Report, a few months ago, that an unnamed National Security Council staffer right in an email. The lake there in tension was to confront asylum seekers with multiple unsolvable dilemmas.
That would, in collaboration, dissuade them from trying to seek asylum in the? U S to begin with, and we don't have evidence that that is happening. What we do have is evidence that aim so is doing more of a job to try to enter decked migrants who are coming through certain, especially african asylum seekers, who are being detained on mass in southern Mexico? Be that migrants you do get into the United States are being sent back to Mexico under the remain in Mexico policy, quick review, that's came. It started going into effect in January its expanded across a lot of the border. At this point, a over forty thousand immigrants have air asylum seekers have been told to wait in Mexico there in the? U S court system, they are brought back into the: U S further court date but between court dates there being told to stay in Mexico. The theory here is that this will prevent them from absconding into the U S and that you know waiting in Mexico. They'll either decided just kind of settled.
Air or avail ultimately be returned in a or the legitimately like, lose their asylum cases and be deported to what are they doing what they have in custody? They did have permission to work in Mexico. Do they are they in in refugee camp right slang they were made varies across the border, and this is a lot of what I was reporting out last week. The short answer is that work is not the problem that housing is an and for a lot of people, especially families, that's much more imports, make there were concerns early in the policy that Mexico was not giving returning asylum seekers a form of immigration status that would allow them to work. That does not appear that they appear to have fixed that. However, It doesn't prevent them from getting discriminated against by employers who are like. Why would we hire you? You aren't gonna stay here and more importantly, they dont have housing. They dont have shelter capacity. There are some eggs
sing, shelters along the border, most of which were designed to deal with mexican deportees and have now had the pivot. There is some effort to build a federal shelters, especially in Juarez, although those are supposed to be temporary shelters, while immigrants like get enough money to start renting out apartments. There are asylum seekers who you know, have kind of found the money to rent out apartments, especially there are a lot of Cubans along the Mexico the Texas Mexico Border and those people, often because they have family in the United States, are a little more likely be able to afford it. But lake. There are over ten thousand between between people who have been returned. People who are still waiting to get admitted at the port of entry, because, if you'll call from a bunch of stuff we're talking at last here the Eu S still limiting the number of asylum seekers who can present legally at ports of entry. So, between those two, there are lake between ten and fifteen thousand asylum seekers and war as right now there is space in shelters for about here
send them where the other people are is not known that some of them are in apartments. Some of them are probably on the streets, there are probably given up and on home, but there is in any kind of centre. The effort to figure out where they are and the U S position on this is that Mexico signed a piece of paper in January. Saying we're gonna, keep them the keep asylum seekers safe, we're gonna, make sure they have access to work and housing and therefore its Mexico's problem. The mexican government is creative, depending on who you ask is doing what it yeah, maybe No wine on the mexican side is saying that Mexico has the capacity or interesting guarantee housing or jobs to everybody, so where these p, are- is a kind of its, not a legal limbo. But it's a practical limbo, and so there really are questions fundamentally about safety
the vital story, which will put an shone out, which has been great early. It is part of a trend of really great reporting on the ramifications of this programme about a family who got returned to the? U S and like kidnapped five hours later, That is not an uncommon story to say the least. Without kind of scooping the particulars of what I was at the border reporting, there are really really serious safety concerns, not necessarily just because, like oh it's Mexico, it's dangerous, but because there are opportunities presented by a group of people who are vulnerable, who aren't max again, who, in some cases
obviously not mexican and few you know, don't necessarily have the familiarity or comfort with police to report. If anything happens to them, so I want to ask about some of the flows of of people, because initially we were talking about Central America. What transiting through Mexico, because Mexico is adjacent to Central America as well as the United States, I saw over the summer, a considerable number of Congo. These people are making their way to me and due to the strange happenstance of where congolese refugees have settled daily in the United, who had come through Mexico and I'm hearing more about people from Cuba and select what what's? What's gonna like? What? How did that kisses? This was really something that I think made me feel more sympathetic to the trompe view of this that there had become a sort of a global attract
in Mexico that needed to be addressed somehow yeah? So as these central american refugee crisis is kind of continued a pace there have in a couple of other things that have changed? One is that Cubans, for the first time in half a century, haven't been able to benefit from Whitefoot dry foot, which was the old policy that made it very, very easy to come to come to the? U S without immigration status as a Cuban, but get legal immigration status very quickly, and so in the absence of that Cubans have had to kind of sneaking, like everybody else launched recently and one for a drive for just just so people the people. People know what this me right. So it the policy that was ended at the end of the Obama administration was, if you were interdicted kind of on the water right. If you were interdicted trying to get to Florida from Cuba, because of course, this year and only ninety miles apart, then you could be returned. No problem. If you would set foot in the United States, you could just present yourself to an immigration off is essential.
Hi, I'm human, I'm here now I'd like my legal status. Please and you would get not only legal status but kind of legal status to give you a very expedited pact permanent residency. So it was a you know. The theory here is that Cubans are kind of de facto refugees by virtue of being under the cuban government, which the Eu S doesn't like. Obviously, while the truck the Obama We must try to normalize relations with Cuba. This was kind of one
steps to normalizing relations. Would like, oh now, that we officially have taken a stance that Cuba is not the existential enemy of the United States were going to regular eyes this, so the Cubans don't get special treatment in the proper administration has not retained that stance towards Cuba as a government, but has retained the stance towards cuban emigration to the United States. So it's reimposed a lot of the sanctions, therefore kind of creating a lot of economic turmoil in Cuba and, at the same time made it impossible for me just sail the Florida and get legal status and which is an interesting dichotomy there, because that is that's a break from I mean I'm aware that when I say things like that's a break from Bush era policy, there are hosting, like trompe conservative cyrillic fan task
feeling that I have had conversations going back to leg, you know the shit hole countries narrative of generally immigration policy as an extension of foreign policy has been. If we don't like your government, we, like your dissident, right and we are going to encourage them to come here and which Europe, if we don't like your government, when you don't like your people, yet we just don't like anyone involved and that's been an interesting element of this. We ve talked on myriad occasions about the cuban emigrants and kind of the idea within the added states and how there are perceived by the Republican Party, but this is an interesting shift. That story words Leg. Remember that time that we talked about you and this house here, where's as you were, trying to flee communism for the wonders of american capitalism. Yet about that, tromp clearly remains interested in the cuban American Vow in far wax and he courts it
clearly I mean both in its foreign policy statements, but just like his basic politics. He like goes to the cuban american vents and he delivers speeches about the evils of the Castro's and Madeira regime stuff like that, and something that's interesting is that that community has not had the juice or interest in use. Its juice to get this, we visited right, I mean because the conventional understanding at I think it was ways weird right like at the height of the cold war. It's not just that that people fleeing Cuba were treated more generously than people one to emigrate from Mexico. They were treated more generously than people who fled the Soviet Union. It didn't make any logical sense, but he was up its politics right. It's like there was a cuban emigrate community. This is the thing that they wanted. Nobody was lobbying for unlimited soviet emigration, so we didn't have that right and indeed has in reality, Trump has not like broken with,
The cuban emigrate community as a political matter, but they also have not made this a topic that we are hearing about rights. Are they gonna ex Thea it'll be interesting to see if this change because, frankly, the impression that I've gotten is that it takes a really long time for a population that was treated specially for a very long freely again? Half a century too internalize that that's not because there is essentially more worthy than any this right, and so the cuban US I'm sick of community is, for example, a lot more likely to try to wait cross into the: U S at bridges and present for asylum rather than getting smuggled through, and that's actually been a bit of a frustration for them us as they seem like that, doesn't get them anything. There is a little more interest in lake. The these rumours keep going around. Like. Oh
humans are eligible for parole. Now, even when that's not the case, I saw a bunch of lawyers who had been who had flown from Miami to the El Paso Immigration Court, because they ve been hired by you. S. Relatives to work on bees in these cases of people have been returned to Mexico. So I think it is, I think, still an open question whether or not it sinks in that Cubans are. We treated like everyone else, and what that, and only after that sinks in, I think, is it good see whether the politics change but right. So the cuban flow is is one thing that is going on and the other factor that's going on, which is in I'm case is the route the Cubans are taking, but in there also kind of coming through other ways, but the countries of Brazil and Ecuador have more generous visa policies than the rest of you know going going north from there and so
There has become a trend of what are called extra continental aliens, people who are coming to one of those countries and then trekking all the way up through for the record, the border between Panama, Colombia does not have a an actual road there. It's like it, it's a biological barrier into their trucking, through jungle going up real Panama through Costa Rica and up through the northern triangle to Mexico, and so that's where the is the african asylum seekers are coming from the least cameroonian Eritrea and, to a certain extent eyes- As for that matter, indian asylum seekers, which is a flow of it, hasn't gotten a whole lot of attention, but that he has kind of spiked in a lot better was speaking on and off over the last few, years, and so, when the? U S talks about a regional solution and when you know starts talking about how Colombia has to be part of it and Panama hat
part of it. Now that jazz, it's trying to use this up unity, not only to kind of sign. These agreements that have come up in the news with and triangle countries to kind of capture asylum seekers along the route, but also to just kind of reach generally strengthen borders between countries, not so that people can, you know, not enter those countries, but so they can't use those countries to transit through to the? U S, and so Mexico is the easiest country that pressure in some ways, because as we discuss them. It's good Guatemala border is fairly narrow, so like it's easier to defending theory than the Mexico, U S border, but there is also the fact that Mexico is in some cases a stronger country, then some of these central american countries and has its own opinions about what it will and won't view and where the? U S, cannon, can't press
and so that's kind have been the broader kind of political dynamic. That's overlaid, this ongoing migration flow. Let's take a break and talk about Tugboat America. We live with a lot of boys between the pings, the dings, the emails labelled urgent. That aren't really that urgent, it's hard to cut through the static zero. When on the things that really matter just like, we can train our bodies to be better running faster, lifting her We can train our minds to stay focused to all the noise. We live with step, one download head space its basis and have loaded with guiding meditations designed offer a daily dose, mindfulness concessions for every situation. Like a three minute s away, meditation when you're overwhelmed by the day and even meditations, you could do it. You, kids, when you're all of run by the day had space has been like a really cool. To have during these sort of difficult pandemic in quarantine. Kind of times has been hard, sometimes till I get a little time for yourself a little space for yourself, and this is-
a great way to create some just like a little like isolation around myself, do something that is cool that helps get me a little more grounded will more centred a little more ready to face the rest of the day. So it is truly a cut above other meditation haps because it relies on clinically validated researched help. You feel better, improve sleep, boost, focus, reduce stress, you deserved, feel happier and had spaces meditation me simple, good, ahead space dot com, slash weeds for a free one month. Try this heads based outcome: slash weeds for free month with access to head spaces, full library meditations, for every situation. This is the best deal offered right now had to head space dot com. Such weeds If you like. Basically, anyone listening to this right now, I'm willing to bet that you are you're dealing with stress, maybe there's it. Of it like an overwhelming amount, or maybe it's more like a low but steady, drumbeat background stress, remember how you are experiencing stress. It's likely effect
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make of the remaining Mexico programme, it has been strikingly successful at getting people to rally in any ethical and that while there was, if, if you had a person on U S soil- and she was a dingy looking sal or tent somewhere are under a highway overpass and had some sad kids with them. They would be, like all these reporters and members of congress- and this is not we are and like it was a huge thing, and people were sincerely set. I mean I know I know some conservatives will look at some of this stuff and like the rolling their eyes and its virtue signalling bike lots of people. I know we're like they were really really upset right. But if they're in Tijuana Ray it's like, they don't exit, steer and and Justice-
can I go into the way on this a little bit Tijuana? Is I mean I haven't been there and several months? Were it? The infrastructure there for shelters is like actually kind of hey relatively war, as has been kind of a mess up, but it there's actually some attention there, ve Mexicans day of Emily Bus, which is across the border from the Rio Grande Valley or from like this, the southernmost part of the Rio Grande Valley, the mexican government, initially said they weren't going to accept any returns there, because it's so dangerous and you know I was there over the weekend- and there's literally you cross the bridge into metamorphose and there's a camp of several hundred people just there just like all. The grounds of the building where
Sk in migration agency processes, people for return, because it's too dangerous to go anywhere else and its wild that we have essentially a refugee camp right across the border. From the? U S, and even U S, immigration or immigration Jason shoals don't appear to acknowledge it like another reporter who is there the same weekend I was there was crossing back and when they said that they were reporting on the migrants and Matamoras. The response was others to a lot of them down there, I'm guessing in one of hearings for people who had been returned on R m p p, the immigration judge asked the ice attorney whether Mexico is guaranteeing housing for people in nice. Attorney said they didn't know, like even among the people who are implementing this policy on the. U S, side, because it's not happening on. U S! Soil varies there. You right. It isn't out of sight out of my problem. I think that you're exactly right, Matt that it's a car,
nation of not happening on EU soil and not happening in? U S custody. I think that this is really exposed. The limits of cosmopolitan sympathy, Amanda Hashtag resistance. I also think that there is a sentiment that like when we talk about the detention facilities. There is a lot of like well. Obama did this too, and I think that that was such a striking moment, because I think that there is very much of a sense that you saw when kids in cages images started coming out that, yes, Obama do too we didn't know about it and now, like. I think that there is a sense of lake. If we're going to do this, it needs to be done in a way that the american people dont have to see it, and I think that that's also something me, and I feel this is a separate show and something I will describe
about her about anyone. But when the trap administration talks about its hat chronicle concerns with homelessness. They are not concerned with homeless Americans. They are concerned that people can see homeless, Americans and would really prefer that you couldn't so that you could walk around and not see poor families living in tents under underpasses, because that makes things look bad. There is a sense that I think that's correct, that the idea of out of sight out around is a very important important political weapon The other thing going on here is that the top administration, after having kind of launched some fairly blunt efforts to expand secular power. Over immigration enforcement in ways that did get struck down- or at least you know, narrowed substantially by the courts, has started finding some places in the duration and nationality ACT that aren't as clear cut and the do allow them to take. More authority than Congress may have
ass, a ceremony anti supported, and one of those is the provision under which there doing this remain in Mexico policy, which is a provision that lake is unclear, Lee written but appears to give them authority to send anybody with lake whose legal status is still being or whose eligibility for relief is still being determined back to a contiguous country if they cross through that through it to wait for the disposition of their case, whether that applies to us I'm seekers is like a grammatical problem in the law essentially, but this is a private but like no one had they haven't been to me when he some odd years that it exists. That no one really had paid much attention to and that the administration is turn into this massive programme, and the other thing that they have kindly exploited is the safe third country agreement. Provision would now's the? U S to sign a bilateral or multilateral agreement that just allows them to start denying asylum seekers on mass which,
es in theory, the regulations require certain certifications that the country actually will keep people safe from persecution, but they require those brought those certifications by the executive branch and between that and this to thirty five b to see remain in Mexico policy. The administration is found ways to kind of Extraterritorial lies an asylum seeker population without congressional oversight, or that much judicial ability to limit. I also think right, fundamentally dissolve Ivy league supposed flaws in they like a dual overlapping frameworks of trying to do. Cosmopolitanism technical, legal, isms, yes, and with trying to do immigration policy on the basis of purely neutral benevolent
politics, rain and didn't like Cuba, because one of its weight is that, like look there's a body of asylum law bright that exists long standing. I it has its meanings, but clearly right. The the the mental image of the asylum seeker in in this kind of thing is either a one off parson fleeing, for you know, reasons that that relate to them or some kind of acute crisis that occurs right in the vicinity of your country right, but there's a body of law right as a bureaucratic process, its built up- and it had come to be the case that you could fly from Africa to Brazil. Then make your way from Brazil through South America, through Central America, through Mexico to the United States border in when Asylum law was created. That was not the
kind of sequence of events that was envision right, but people who believe in cosmopolitan values like wanted. It hang their hats. Our hats frankly like on asylum, because you wanted to help people right, but the problem with all of this- is that, like it's very easy to generate cosmopolitan sympathy to a person in? U S custody, because people holding them in. U S, custody are acting in our names, and so if they are treating other human beings poorly enough, there you go but we know right. I mean those of us who are knowledgeable about the world There are millions of people living in terribly bleak conditions in Haiti in Burma in all around the world,
right and nobody, I think in the United States, would actually be that thrilled with tens of millions of them materializing as Mexico border suddenly right, and we saw a big political movement against Trump and against the cruelty of child attention, but certainly not a political meant for like totally unrestricted immigration right, and you continue not to really, even though, despite republican rhetoric and stuff, like that, there's no, the movement for democratic, actual real deal
been borders, people there. There aren't that many of them- and I say this as someone who will very much favour an extremely loose sense of asylum, because I think that there are like the idea of how we construct what people can receive asylum for, especially with relation to victims of domestic violence, because technically victims of domestic violence are not victims of political violence. Its aimed at people like them at such violence
that them or elderly people, especially because it could be constructed, as this is just another way of trot, proving that the cruelties the point to by borrowing from our friend Adam server? But I think that there is a sets it now. It's not happening here. It's like the cruelty is someone else's point now way any eight calls for it does. I think he calls for some kind of thinking about like what is it that like people who are on the left or common pot reminded, but what do we want to see out of an immigration system and a process that I think is a little less? A lot of like democratic party immigration
see. Development right now is very, I feel like dominated by immigration lawyers, which makes sense yes, some ways, because immigration lawyers obviously know a lot about immigration law, but a lot of what they are trying to do, because their lawyers is identify sort of specific provisions in the vast web of immigration law where they can generate that that are like big lever. You know symbolic, that's what lawyers do right. They try to make love tweaks that actually a big consequences, but party? Would you need wake as you see that, like the resistance against from was very potent, and then he was nothing right and an that's an that's, because if it is a question of like moral vision, right not have like going through the back door, but if I like what what when we say this is not who we are as a country when people say that like who are we as a country that
like like what what what? What do we want out of this right. But what do we want out of the world? What statement are we trying to make and when I saw Democrats talking about immigration last couple debates, you know he was interestingly only Andrew Yang, who I thought like really tried to answer that question, and he gave a question that was different from the humanitarian immigration question regiment. He gave a sort of economic development question and when he talked about you know his parents coming from having no floor. I do pin up new members in Asia and you know he's founding businesses and he's for president. He talked about the large proportion of immigrants among founders of american Start ups, and things like that. You, as you know it wasn't an answer to this asylum question, but it was an answer to that question like of not just like. Why does Donald Trump make me feel
ie, but I wanted my trying to say about this and you don't really heard from other people, even though it so close to the like emotional centre, not just of trumps politics, but of responses to trouble. I think, though, one of the biggest challenges facing kind of institution, or conservatism is that people in general before twenty sixteen twenty, fifty with any kind of establishment conservatism. In that I mean that Heritage Foundation a tobacco thing, they thought they were all. On board, with the Andrew Yang style of talking about immigration. That immigrants come here they, and if it, the economy there engines of the american economy and contribute to the tapestry of America by learning together in a majestic super is the american experience and then it turned out. People didn't really feel that,
and so that's your now, starting to see a host of people theirs. But all our discussion among conservatives, of kind of two specific writers, David, French and rubber, marry her talking about kind of what is the future of conservatism. Looking like and there's a piece in the federalists that talked about here are things that America can do to be better for Christians, because that's a parent a concern for some Christians, but one of them was like welcome immigrants, because immigrants tend to be more conservative and they tend to be more religious and that's better for America more broadly and then you, see Michel market, whose far a right, leaning, conservative writer, who just released a book about how the catholic church is trying format the browning of Amerika and she and Sebastian Gorka who is ass. An emigrant of a different kind
just talking about how the United Nations is trying to make America browner- and you see this and part of something that Trop rightly picked up on- is that, while only conservatism really valued the concept of images Shin specifically legal immigration as a boon to America. There are a host of people who think of themselves being conservatives who do not. You start seeing immigration restriction who were like we weren't just talking about so called a league. Immigration or in document immigrants we mean all immigration, so I think that that's it, fascinating element of this, because even the Andrews Yang of the world, who make the argument that my parents, here and worked hard, and now I've benefited at this country, and I'm giving back that argument, that work on immigration restriction is who think that like? No, the thing that should have happened is that you should have never been allowed to come here and someone else, preferably someone who
his native, born or native, born as we conceive of it, should be able to start those companies, and so I think that there is an interesting contract with in conservatism about one of the things about twenty. Sixteen is that a lot of elite conservatives thought everyone greed and with what they were talking about, and then you find out. That's not true, and I'm I'm interested in how that structural works when you here. Someone like Andrea anger, others making the case for immigration more broadly, and then that case doesn't work. The same way it use to you, I'm in one of the core areas of this kind of broadly restriction is viewpoint, as it refers to a refugee flows in particular. Is the idea that there should be regional responses to asylum crises right that there is an eagle Will refugee crisis that there are several regional refugee crisis in that its the responsibility of neighbouring countries. To take this up, and often this is kind of implicit
grounded in the idea of cultural similarity right like it's easier from Mexico to absorb central Americans than it would be for the Eu S to do so, or it's easier for you know neighbouring arab countries to absorb syrian refugees than it is for Europe to do so, which lake has a bunch of assumptions that should themselves be unpacked, among them is the idea that, of course, Mexico and Central of Mexico and Guatemala S got Honduras or cut culturally similar and therefore hunter. And will be welcomed with open arms and much. It is a huge issue. Anything I have actually a different interpretation of the mean. That is, I think that there are different eight lake. That is definitely a strain that gets yeah. Sure I mean, but I think part of it right is that the original postwar nor to migration framework it it like canonize, is the idea that wanting to move to another country, because you can make a better life,
yourself, there is like fundamentally illegitimate right, but that wanting to move to another country- because you are in imminent danger for your life- is not just legitimate, but like is Trump card against other aspects of national policy right, so that simply go really harsh crude dichotomy. When the real world people rightly give. I remembered like talking to my great grandparents about like why they left czarist Russia right and like. I do not think that their explanations thus made a like really hard and fast distinction between Russia was poor. There was a lot of anti Semitism in general, there were sometimes programmes, killed people. You know what it is all of the thing right and that we all get that right and like certainly one of the reasons why they came to Amerika right if they were going to bother to
leave their homes, villages and go on alike. Aid arduous difficult journey. They wanted to come to the United States because they heard the United States was like a good place to live right right. That's why they weren't trying to go to Portugal, but the dear that you should go to the neighbouring country right eating habits that dichotomy s friend quite that, if genuinely the only consideration is an imminent threat to your life, stemming from the government of the state that your fleeing right, that it's like you across the border, and it's a good news now, you're in Lebanon, where's the desire to come to America exhibits that you have the allegedly illegitimate purpose of making a better life for yourself and your family, because America's like a rich, you know like overall good place to live in, compared to Tajikistan are or whatever of thin data into the whole lake. The prosecutor has to be the state thing, we're
as Jane play out earlier, if your fleeing domestic violence, because your government is, as the term exist, furthermore, unwilling or unable to protect you. Then if you have way to another, sometimes it does not have a government that is able or willing to protect you. Europe, no you're abuser, your persecutor- could come with you, but like that's. This gets back to interchange, point about the ability of the two, its entry asylum law framework to survive the twenty first century, which is a personal hobbyhorse of my, and so I will get off it. And allow us to talk about a white paper. Excellent. Let's do it said the break. This episode is brought you by Fernando Football is back and the best that you can make is downloading the Federal Sports Bookshop. It doesn't matter. If new to gambling or an old pro fan, dual has something for everyone and, as an official
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the thing is much more interesting: barely holding former mob prosecutor and host of the new podcast up against a mom up against the mob the bail on the world's most secretive criminal organization, La Cosa, Nostra we'll talk to profit Reuters, former mobsters, an undercover agents and Ike Hollywood. All these stories are true new episodes, dry every Wednesday starting September, eighth, listen and follow up hence the mob on Apple pie, CAS Spotify or your favorite podcast app? Ok, our paper for you today is by Owen Thomson. It is titled school desegregation and black teacher employment. It is about the impact of school disembarkation, Armenia,
by teachers? It is a question at Allumette had never really occurred to me to think about it, but it's actually something that comes up in. There is an interesting piece in the Atlantic. Two weeks ago we could go. Time is relative, a bow african american athletes and historically by colleges and universities, and one of the things that's interesting when people talk about lack of african american forebears and United States is that the arguments that they were having among themselves in the forties decent sixties words. Trust is interesting, as the arguments are putting forth to predominantly way audiences and among them Zoran. These Hurseton, deep legendary writer with wrongly opposed to the concept of brown versus border education for many areas,
but among them, was the idea that, in a hypothetical good, segregated environment that would benefit african american teachers and african american administrators, and you could essentially build a african american biosphere that would benefit the people within it and would keep african Americans going to black colleges, benefit Tuskegee and prayer review and host and Howard and a host of other each BC use, and so your seeing the data which we can it into its end. It's a little is part of that original argument, which is you. I know that when, during the most recent democratic debate, the concept of each BC use came up and Robbie survey who writes that reason whose someone I know pretty while he asked yes like. Why are we still encouraging people to go to each BC is known
results of fifteen thousand word essay on that subject, but I think the indian how desegregation impacts african american teachers as a part of this larger story. So so, how did you ever get an impact african american teachers? Ass, though you finds you don't looking back it at length, census data, is about a thirty two percent decline in the number of african american teachers employed in the? U S south. He finds it those teachers do not move into new, better career opportunities that were opened up by the process of desegregation. They move into lower skilled, lower paid work than they'd been previously. They lower they without at the south gas, and then also they are not
pleased by like a new cadre of better teachers, they replaced by New Quadra of less experienced white teacher. I mean we don't know that much by their factors, but a joy to a first agree. What happened was that as southern jurisdictions had to implement segregation desegregation, they took the opportunity to lay off a large share of the black teaching workforce and replace them with less experience white teachers. Basically, turning
I mean I don't do this there's a lot you could say about this. There are some parallel type situations right, so I live near. I, U Street in in Washington, which was kind of the main street of the african american part of the segregation city, and so disaggregation hurt a lot of black owned businesses there. It's tough luck that like, if you built a business on the back of like making the best out of segregation, and then you lose it because of disembarkation, but that's people have more options but quickly. That's not what happened yet right. He says that there was a fair you know, deliberate public policy effort to sort of make lemonade out of lemons. I mean from the standpoint of like white Supremacist state legislatures right, but if it's it's a different thing from like the opening up of options having some costs for a small number of relatively poor
Jeff going Americans, it's the desegregation orders were limited in what exactly they ordered you to do so they sort. I took the opportunity to just fire bunch of black teachers nowhere is right and what I really appreciate about this papers. They didn't have to go to links to establish that, and they did anyway right. It would be very easy to write this paper based on the census data and say: oh look. It turns out that this is a consequence of school integration, but instead what they do is they explicitly say, look we're not say but this was some kind of unintended consequences, are invisible hand kind of thing, we're seeing that it the result of public policy choices and, secondly, to use
historical record to show not only that it was the result of choices, but that it wasn't inevitable and was recognised as being a problem at the time. There's like a specific recreative court case subsequent to Brown versus board of ad, in which teachers are trying to black teachers are trying to say, hey all of us got fired. No white teachers got fired in our community, really this is contrary to the Spirit of Brown and the court said. Actually, no, this is fine, and so that kind is using the historical record to supplement the quality. The quantitative analysis ends up making the case much more persuasively. Then a standard correlations paper that just goes here several mechanisms right that could theoretically explaining the other point that I wanted to make us like. It can seem a little bit counter intuitive. That in integrating schools, you can just fire bunch of teachers there
The argument of the authors make here is that that was made possible while a violate recruiting teachers replace them, but also because, in addition to just kind of consolidating districts, meaning that you had some efficiencies, white students were Disan Rolling, and this is part of the kind of massive resistance leading into white flight. Suburbanization and increased use of private schools late when food there are fewer white students and more black students in classrooms. You dont need as many teachers to support them so instead of having white kids
your white teachers and black. His under black teachers. You have black kids under white teachers being the predominant met of public school in the added states. Ye. I guess, is interesting to me a wheat. We picked this paper before this happened, but there were some people arguing about the sort of overall legacy of judicial review it in the USA, which is a bigger topic than than a white paper section. But he in this history shows some of the difference between a court led process and a legislative process right, because one of the things that nice about a legislative process right is that african american teachers being far and away the largest block of african Maghreb professionals at the time would naturally like were people who work like on the radar of the civil rights movement, trade, any neglect coalition process, a legislative process. Will you have hearings and you have on a horse trading and Bobby Bob Obama? It seems
You know it's hard to get major legislation passed, but this is also the kind of thing that you think about right is like well. What are we gonna do about this situation, whereas in a legal framework where you put down this ruling, I guess very, like its is very high minded it taps into basic values, about equality, but it has in the nature of a judge whirling, it's like particular point right which to say that segregating the children has stigmatizing effect inherently and that that violates equal protection laws. So you have to not
wit go forth right right and a lot of kids like left out. I'm cutting room, because this is not what judges do right. They don't sit down with interest groups and people who have these different complaints and our like, hey, like I think the segregated system is really shitty and unfair, but also I like having a job or like I don't have a problem. I mean they cite testimony from the original brown planes who were like, we don't have a problem with our teacher straight right, but that's not how limits on how courts Org is. Ultimately, the court has to make make this ruling. Unlike the high question of principle and not think about how do you organize the transition? And
Like it's, it's really quite bad. This is especially a problem. One we're talking about civil rights era because go forth, isn't just go forth its we understand, there's gonna be subsequent litigation, but we trust that the lower courts are going to use the opinion we ve just written to work out the details. The lower courts are course regionalized. So it was never likely that the fifth circuit was going to interpret brown the same way that you know the second circuit overnight. Market would, and so you end up having a situation in which the region where the Supreme Court, envisioning. The most rigorous enforcement of this are exactly the actors who have the strongest incentive to water. That decision down right, which is why you're still see school speak forced to desegregate. Now did that's happening also in California. Yeah. No, two important points, the Good NEWS, bad news- maybe we ve talked about this in the context of boarding rights- is that civil rights issues have become nationalized to the point that arguably there is,
going to eat, arguing either our regions throughout the country where more rigorous enforcement would be a welcome thing blessing to say about this, is that there is some recent jenna up, though some in the shadows, others might be well the paper segment of its of its own, that you know the racial match between students and teachers is actually important. You know to student outcomes as well as sort of it being unfair to teachers to end up losing their jobs. It's not it's. The best thing for every american students to go to schools were all the authority figure
a white fur ino, a whole variety of reasons. If we were trying to come, will they get technically sound desegregation strategy like this is really not what you would do grant as someone who attended the image, all white schools, their entire life? It's interesting because I think that there has been there has been researched. Specifically. I've seen this with regard to male teachers with how boys are taught, but it will be interesting to gotta get into the research of how free smashing, which would be an interesting challenge for me, but how that works in terms of student success and also like how one would format That yeah at it it's complicated. So so this has been another progressive shouldn't rely on the court's episode of the we have never important so without thanks guys, thanks as always to our producer, Jeffrey Gold and the Whitworth
on Friday.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-10.