« The Weeds

The bacon fat theory of school segregation, and some White House chaos

2017-08-02

Ezra, Sarah and Alvin Chang talk about the quiet return of segregation in schools, chaos in the Trump White House, and taxing marijuana. Links!The Washington Post article on school desegregation and the Supreme Court.Alvin's piece on school desegregation and gerrymanderingAlvin's article on living in poor neighborhoodsAlvin's article on white America self-segregatingAlvin's piece on Obamacare repeal splitting neighborhoods

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Is anyone here, I'm here. None of it is he like they don't hear me, I'm not hearing anything. This is literally like listening to the weeds. hello and welcome to the weeds on the rocks media pot gas network. I am Sarah Cliff, I'm here as usual, with my caused as recline Galicia is somewhere in Maine on vacation in the land of Susan Collar migrants, who used to hearing boats, but could we use it was felt a little odd to do it, but you know we we have to soldier on without mat and a great job. Thank you and we have one of our really brilliant colleagues. Alvin Chang is here with us who you might recognize from his face stick visual, explain errors on vocs which get into a lot of weeds the issues about. Degrees in the history of homeownership policy.
We want to bring em on costs here. This really fantastic tassel peace last week about segregation in schools and how school Segregation has quietly come back into it, patient system so we'll talk about a few other topics. Later, we are going get into the owners clusterfuck the heck nickel term of what is happening in the later. How sorry now think the White House is undergoing an abolition raised, offing changes. He's not going grating, spokesperson Klein and we have, since everyone really enjoyed our last white paper about we'd on the weeds, We have another about marijuana taxation in Washington state which is possibly the most we'd Z white paper and vertical integration. Laffer curvetted Grant s neck, but anyways Elvis welcome. We are so excited to have you here. He really great to be and actually be able to respond to the things you that cancer is screaming. At the Victoria you too, just start by setting the the table here bit. What
the overall numbers on school segregation. What what? What is the overview of the issue? Look like right now, so school segregation is, is getting worse in the past three decades or so scared segregation has actually kind of started to creep back into our education system and in ways that I didn't exist shortly after Brown. Be bored integrated schools, what's really interesting is the ways that we're seeing segregation creep back in are entirely predictable we knew this would happen. In fact, several cream court justices said exactly what would happen and better what kind of let it happen. I think us now about Brown versus the Board of Education and what that decision meant. But then you read about this other Supreme Court decision. That seems to have a lot less name recognition. I honestly had not heard of it, and I read your piece but to be influential but like walking through the role of the supreme court. Unlike what is
what is allowed and how that's kind of played into some of the trends you're talking about so in the nineteen seventies, Detroit had this effort to integrate schools. So four out of the six Detroit School Board, members voted for this plan to a bus white students within the Detroit School District to a predominantly black neighbourhoods, and vice versa. and the know. Detroit is a historically segregated city. There was literally a wall that separated a black community from white community in order for Adam, Housing administration to back alone. For that way, community there is a huge racial. His We I'm sorry. If I here, can you just outlined out for another minute so that there was a war build in order to qualify for federal loans, a big beautiful wall
Actually I mean- as I hope you for so in an in, I believe, around making for either the developer, who wanted to build a development in Detroit and get loans backed by the federal government. But the federal government has in one of their handbooks fur bad enough telling people how their grant for allow those three back tonight One of the kind of things written in that handbook was black. People are a risk essential. So, in order for this developer to actually be able to build the neighbourhood and get why people in there, he had to build a wall that separates his neighborhood from a blackmail, and then the FED said. Ok, that's businesslike, make the case. This is saying like we have a wall, there won't be riffraff and refresh is basically coat for African American. At that point that ensure trained argue. This is a safe place because we have this law, which is pretty her
If you read like any of elephants work, I had the pleasure of editing Alvin, for while you re You realize it be horrendous, re, shawl history, if our housing policies and make that really ties it and I think, a lot of what's going on in there. The peace writing about school segregation. Tail with this is one of the these pieces of the issue that I always think it's under played in the way we talk about current outcomes and gaps in Rachel When you have these conversations. People often seem to have this view that we will we had slavery, and then we had this terrible sort of arabic. structured in state sponsored terror and then we'd segregation by you know roughly ninety It's you, five. It all and since then it's all been fine and anything any gaps that have not been made up or have not clothes.
That you can now say, as bats race neutral right that that's just now say something about the people are saying something about the culture of saying something about something, but it's not our fault anymore. We ve done. We, America have done our part. I end one of the things that you really fine when you dig into this little bit is how much we have. Continued in the post segregation era to both suddenly and not subtly stack the deck and continue to advantage. Some groups are others part. We whites over over non whites and lot of it comes out, but were now now because it's a little bit more hidden. We blame people for the outcomes right. We say this was your fault even as a huge amount of policy went into making itself. Yet we don't ascribing to array
this motives, even though, when you kind of delve back and see the evolution of how we got here there it does. We do see kind of this invisible blueprint, kind of riches and canyons in our geography of why people live where they do why people have certain disadvantages and it's it's especially prominent here cause and you go back to Detroit. There was that the school. Strict, had a choice of words, draw their school district kind of catchment zones and they could have drawn a line kind of going north to south, which would have allowed more integration to happen, and, of course they didn't they. They drew the wine EAST to West and a kind of split. the black communities and the white communities which, by the way, existed in that way because of housing discrimination, it just kind of split them again actually along racial lines, and then you have this hyper segregation, by the time we we got to this kind of integration plan at the school We voted on and has expected it cause like some
a huge amount of outrage like there is literally a recall action that recalled like before Detroit Board members who voted for this plan and, in fact, like the Michigan state Legislator, even jumped in block the plan, and it took a federal judge tactic feel I actually guys you can't do that. So that's what about the plan to go forward and what would this plan of done so this plane would have taken white students in predominantly white high schools and bus them to predominantly black high schools and vice versa. Alot lakes, many of the bussing bussing plans that exist- I guess nowadays in certain city, and where the things I ve from your explain, it is interesting to me what was this included the Detroit suburbs at this point, because you had seen such white flight out of Detroit, you couldn't actually integrate Detroit. it was like know enough to integrate of eighty five understanding. Your explain a right that they actually are reaching out to the suburbs. That's the only way you could even do any sort of racial.
Migration here, where one so one of the problems that the federal and the n double ACP and a whole bunch of boy activist kind of recognized. But when you start busing students from one place to another, especially white students in the black neighborhoods, it's going to kind of trigger more whitefly. It's going to cause a whole bunch of white people to go into the suburbs which will get into kind of later of Hawaii. That pathway exists. But that's why the federal judge allowed the integration order to include these suburban communities. So, ultimately, the integration plan was be. Will bus students from in Detroit out to the supper, it's too predominantly white suburbs and bus white, suburban kids into Detroit to actually cause rashly could have to kind of meaningful
the creation and then what happens in this room court? They can. How does this kind of spell out into how school districts work today? Yet so this is the Supreme Court says: ok, yeah Detroit is responsible for causing this her manner segregation, but then they can on and say you can involve them. Suburbs in integrating you, you have to just be straight within the trade, and so it doesn't sound terrible on the surface. It doesnt, you know consistent. You know why? Should the sub be involved in this integration plan, but what it ultimately is it is it allows people who don't want, be around for black kids to just put a municipal border between them, so either going right across the border to another suburb or creating your own small little town or your own small school district, and so it creates dislike extremely powerful tool for a second
listen to happen, and you were really fascinating chart in the in the peace. That shows what you would have expected to see in terms of white families moving out of the particular area of her to go school district and what you actually did see in the aftermath of these kinds of of orders. That struck me as very powerful evidence that these orders were creating a very clear white flight. The I mean I don't think, there's any question that White flight was triggered by these segregation plans, one of them Is that really under appreciated is what happened after a Brown be born a lot of times? You can celebrate Brown report and say hey. We intervened at schools, but actually in other way, I see it Brown be bored. Was it a trigger for white communities too
stood together, inform their own community is away from black communities. So is so so loud attempt these segregation plans will go through the courts new. Can it would have an idea that you know in three years id certification things going to kick in and MIKE it's gonna be bus to black neighbourhood and so wait. Families word preemptively, start leaving. You know something something like the year before its problems. like ten percent of white Families- would leave that area, so they wouldn't have to be passed black neighborhoods or risk being bus. Black neighborhoods, that's gonna, have to meet us Astounding, compared to like the two to three percent that they would expect from normal demographic shifts. So I have two thousand, and one is that I think is issuing think about what we're talking about in terms of suburban ASEAN in terms of a lot of the healthcare conversations we have cause we're talking about is a kind of death spiral right. You need for your school district behalf
the you need, a certain number of kids who are coming from you: no upper socio economic losses and the sudden orcades coming from Loris as economic causes, ideally, and you know we can sometimes talk, I think, about bussing about white flight and allow of impartiality goes into it right, like every family with sank themselves. I am extremely exist. I do not want my son going to school like children, we are going to operate our entire life and move over here. That clearly happened. but it also wasn't what everybody did, but once it begins happening and the says he can Composition and demographic composition of your school changes. All the sun there's more pressure on like the families who may be didn't care that much at the beginning been other school is getting worse. Things don't feel, is good and on and on and on and on line interest creates this this spiral as people begin to leave. It just makes more sense for the next group to leave, which makes more sense for the next group to leave, and they knew just left with people who don't have an option to exit anxious is very, is very very,
ugly problem, a problem that both has re straight and genuine racism at its core, but once the cycle begins happening, people can make good the decision to leave for totally non racial reasons that Nobody really at that point knows how to stop lamented Be a decision to leave its I'd, say you're moving to Detroit from some other city in an you're looking at like will. Where do I want to live in Detroit and you're going? If you have, the means to live in the play that has the better schools you're probably choose that place you. Don't you end up in the place? You know with the Good schools end I think also wearing onto that is the unique way we fund schools very much based on local property taxes. That is going have really like a varies no bawling a fact. It feels like where there are a lot of in Vienna jazz you society, all the factors like stack up to It's going to the place that has the higher property values that that has built up in a way.
that is, funding this, possibly the great school system, expensive, another one, but that seems to be another key factor going on here is the very localised nature of school funding One sponsors today is twenty three and meet outcome. Twenty three in me, com is a genetic service that provides you with DNA reports about where your dna comes from from around the world, so you can explore what percentage of your dna comes from places like ITALY, Finland, EAST Asia or Africa now through August third, you could win, and genetic adventure as twenty three and meet outcome will choose one person each day for twenty three days to travel around Countries based on your dna. You be one of the twenty three people to win a trip and travelled locations based on your dna, order your dna kit or a chance to win a trip to explore your connection to the world and travel like never before to enter visit. when you three and me dotcom, that's the number twenty three
Andy N Dot, com no purchase necessary open to legal? U S, residence, eighteen or older, and third, must complete the twenty three and me service visit twenty three and dot com, slash rules for free entry, but so let me ask a question here: Alban, from the perspective of say, libertarian listener of this show What your hearing here on some level is a story of unintended government consequences. You just said that on the board. Despite the weights, venerated in american life also was a trigger point at which it white communities began actively physically segregating themselves. I wasn't is done by law, so they did it in another way, away than in some ways might have been harder to to manage opponent overall bits, and in some cases I, u we talk about the ways in which the way we fund school districts, all these different things come together, and they have these a huge consequences.
Somebody listening might say you know this show. Is it did trying to do social engineering on where people live and who they live next to and what kinds of communities are in is just not something we go: going to be able to do those preferences or to ingrained those communities are too complex. These issues are two core to people's ideas for their own families and for their children's future, and that the problem here is. You know that the government keep trying to do these overly clever ideas like bussing and it needs to stop
it's really interesting, the the analogue to healthcare. It it's a lot of people who think about this issue used the word social contract, often than they they talk about how communities think about social contracts and how communities think about a certain local area where social contracts apply to them and certain other communities and don't apply to them, and it seems to get up and seems to me that a so school funding formula usually give about not turning federal funding about half of the funding comes from states and half the money comes from local property taxes, they create Just like ridiculous feedback loop, where, if you are able to seed from a poorer school district, you can pour more money into schools. You can increase your property values, which then help you pour
more money into your schools and so on and so forth, and it's it's there's this incentive to cluster away from larger communities, larger pools of people with whom you should be sharing resources and creating efficient systems, but in as you have all these smaller, wealthier communities that are creating this vicious feedback, loop and then kind of. I cannot think of it like when you poor, cold water and let bake in fact you just get like these little pause and its it seems. that's what's happening here. This is a lot of it comes to like the funding is, actually they give out the healthcare and it fills a you almost want like the individual mandate and like the education policy, wherein you already have that it in a way where you know all this they're going to school, but there's no there's a lot cross subsidies from unit one kid to another that the dollar's, often well the student and follow them to whatever school there are
There is actually this moment on Fox NEWS the day after the health care this circle back in a moment I promise, but the day after the Healthcare Bell failed in the Senate. There's this moment I think, was fox and friends, where one of the whole said well, we're just stuck in this system where healthy people have to keep paying the bills of the sick and as Europe going to help like that. Nobody, it was actually regular joy me too, like understand like why you know this person imposes at any heap seem genuinely oppose the idea that healthy person would spend money that they would not get back, that they would spend money on premiums, and it would go to some one else said they would. You know not benefit in the immediate term, although likely benefit in the long term. From that structure end think there's a similar sort of reticence, possibly going on there, and you know, understandably, so it in this kind of
it reminds me of the deduction for mortgages and away when people make big decisions based on current policy when they decide to buy that house and they decide to live in that particular place. They get very there. Invested in those policies. They say why I bought a house because of this deduction. Supped renting. I bought a house because it's in the school district, to really hard force to push Och against you knew? The two people me These decisions, based on current policy in up ending all of that policy, even if it's for a whole lot of people. Ryan? They meant what gas except you know, I'm these decisions about my life and my, how do I continue forward with big changes so open? What can we do. I mean, I think you know so on an individual level. What's really fascinating, is it's just a whole bunch of often middle class families, Kennedy
decisions for themselves and there's this really fascinating white paper that just came out describes how, in this is getting to what we can do with schoolboys, that have more democratic members tend to be able to to fend off segregation bore or create more integration that we use a democratic you're talking party you wise, not just parting. Ok, yes, party wise, and they you know, because school board members don't run out on party platforms David. Did this really clever thing that they looked up these people's voter registration? And so it's it's fascinating, but it seems like the model we have to keep in our head is a free do anything that big fat phenomenon will happen and your start seeing pooling that's much smaller and smaller. So that seems like one thing that you know getting involved in kind of a local
at local level. To pro actively push against this is, I think one Keith thing to do. The other is the school during that mean what other resources do we do? We it all out from and about local property tax level, and there are very few in its truly interesting that Rules are one of them and I think that, as this data was based on at builds, which is an organization at the kind of does schools, research and their c o told me, the primary problem is these backwards incentives that that are caused by how we fund schools. So I think that's that's an area we should really think about. And, lastly, the the court decision we talked about at the top of the show its milk can be broadly get allowed these borders to be completely weapon eyes by people who feel like they need to happen eyes them to protect and hoard their kids opportunity, and I think
that's in place, we really need to to visit the other two if nor can be broadly, is just gonna stay there and allow borders to be kind of vast stratified factor, What did those curious about is what this fills similar different to Jerry. during the drawing of borders where either read, there's a wash imposed article use and drowned Alvin that we cannot put an show where the argument is made that this is very deep. And from gerrymandering, it's not subject to a lot of review. It happens, INA with much less view from any sort of court system. The standards are different in the Supreme Court than they are, but in look at gerrymandering and think like. Well, that's not going to we're well like those lines are being drawn in ways that are creating different districts that are having political, Ramoth I'm curious. If not, but you too much on this But if you have any kind of thought This is similar different from the other way
We draw lines around ourselves to achieve certain goals I mean so you know I'm a visual thinkers, so Canada were the I've been thinking about. This is gerrymandering exerts or a kind of outward, whereas school successions try to exert power, inward and kind of poured away others may think that there is a really different phenomenon that happens there, where with gerrymandering kind of taking away power from others, whereas with fiscal successions, it seems like it's more about our hoarding opportunity. For you self speaking affording opportunity for yourself whose, average hoarding Ezra, I'm not really sure the art of achieving. Has your total routine covered, whether shaving beard, maintenance, hair, skin or body fragrance, they ve got it all the out of shape,
award: winning products are formulated with the highest quality botanical ingredients featuring pure essential oils, it's a forum element the perfect shave that they ve created to deliver smooth result. Every day it starts with prepping your skin, but their signature appreciate oil then create thick foamy. there with shaving cream applied with the shave brush shaved and then one, the most after, with their shape bomb The art of shaving offers a convenient replenishment service, so you can subscribe and you don't really have to worry about them running out, though, just show up at your doorstep. listeners will receive fifteen percent off their first order and free shipping by using the promo code weeds to get this offer just go online to the art of shaving dot com, a news, special promo code weeds to get fifteen percent off your first order and free shipping once again that the of shaving dot com, for this special offer or for a constitution. with the grooming expert been do any of their many retell occasions located near you,
we are talking after a very tumultuous weak in the Trump White House about he could go a month ago, two and a half years ago? I Anthony Scare Muky been. New communications director who had not yet started his communications director for Donald Trump called Ryan List the new Yorker and gave literally the most insane interview, a communications director, Fer, a White House ever given, but among us, it happened in that interview. He said that reigns previously than the chief of staff was a fuckin paranoid, gets Fred, and that, if Ryan really wanted to leak, something he should leak that previous is gonna, be fired so and publishers interview. As you do, and then everybody thought what I that seems like something you should let your communications direct or say, but a couple days later, rights previous was in fact,
fired. I he was left on its airport tarmac as yours is sad as the wasn't just fired. It is humiliated this by the way wall. Donald Trump is humiliating. His attorney general and saying is attorney general's, a huge disappointment who is never loved him in the first place, but rains previous gut I just Anthony scare Mochi promised you would be I he was by John Kelly, General John Kelly who's, the head of the Department of Homeland Security will respect the guy inside the EU, administration, but has some trump ask qualities in terms of how he views the press in terms of how these outside critics some sort of famously he once presented trumpet the ceremonial sword and said this is free to use on the press, which was a joke, but you know you don't make a had chosen as you coming from particular point. An Kelly's behind the lot of the Trump administration's more trompe efforts in immigration and he's been very
very very aggressive in terms of arguing that there should not be criticised. it s a bit. The many women in uniform should be left alone to do the jobs they want to do. This is something that appeals for trump. This idea that you not only he and his uniformed cork and the country safe and that they should be going bodily leeway to do so. On the same day, Trump appointed Kelly Chief of staff. He also gave a speech to an assemblage of a police office. Prison which he argued that told them hey. Listen when you're putting new suspects in your car. That thing you do. We your hand on their heads. They don't hit their head. Stop doing that, let them hit their head. So just straight for the argue. Police brutality later the police department at word, shrub spoke had to disavow chums comments and say that they take police brutality seriously, but from fire previous put Kelly in charge a couple days later, Anthony scare Muti the boots, as he is now called I he was all so fired. This is heard of intense story. He had it
not yet officially started so technically. He was far before he started, but all the way he had been acting to get the job, the end to align itself with Trump had destroyed, personal life, and he had just divorced his wife nobody's gonna like not been there for the birth of their child, the standing since kind of a sad story, but also he just didn't even get to start. The job he's gone So now we have the Trump administration. No more rights previous now more Anthony Scare, Muky, new chief of staff, John K, we know, martian spaces, which was only a few weeks ago. It feels like I should like an answer: will there. He is actually outlast scare, aruji like an end date. I figures possibly today or in a couple days, I'm in a hundred was unclear what he's what what's going on with him. So there are different ways: Look at this one way of looking at this. Is it's a pretty normal reboot where rights previous was not well liked. A thought of his effective inside the administration is scare me, was cruelly lunatic Armand. They put Kelly
Who is well like the administration in charge, and so all fine the way, as our colleague Darlin put it, is to think of his dark reboot. This is tromp who has been foiled back Congress, whose unpopular going back to the law and order, like the horde, immigrants are coming to kill you. the initial stuff that that made his campaign effective, at least in their public and primary Kelly, represents a part of tromp, has been carrying out that part of his agenda. I'm trumps, giving those kinds of speeches again that's a more worrying way to look at it another way of looking at. It is just another generation in a completely unstable white house and who the fuck knows what's going to happen, and John Kelly's life is about to get much worse because he's gonna be trying to control a president who cannot be controlled, but all in all things don't look supersede.
able in the shop White House right now get I don t. I kind of rule out the idea of just a normal transition, given that its one that involves one senior way to staff member calling another one fucking paranoid schizophrenia, kick this does not like, a normal transition of power. It is true that you often see indeed see you to bear. These are have jobs? These are highest stress, working all the time you don't really intense jobs anything there for every single can trumpets- and there is also a trump tweet criticize, Obama for it. I think he had some factory. You know during the Obama administration the number of Chiefs of Staff he went through. I forget how many a wise, but was not merely ray and three years so yeah. You know these are jobs that you may not stand for more than a year. Just given the intensity of the work, the notion,
start with snow us axis cookies, previous ryo, again, Damien Alvin had been brought up on twitter yesterday that this was the shortest run. We ve ever seen em for communications director to slightly shorter than the guy who had to leave because it turned out. He was involved in there you with the so called the because a decision is is stiff here, so I don't think this is normal transition. It feels it you can like put in the context of where the true Restoration is right. Now you know they just saw the one big just slate of push flame out completely no clear path forward. The trump is very agitated about this on twitter keeps talking about. You know where, where this Tuesday morning were waiting to see if he's going to blow up Obamacare today by ending subsidy findings. Weird like a white house. That is in many his stock and trying to figure out where to go from there.
Nor were they go. I think you know Darras. Pc certainly suggests the possible theory that they go much darker return to a lot of things that their campaign spite, but it doesn't feel to me like the normal flux of peace, in and out of a West wing situation, feels much more chaotic, much more abnormal mean. What strikes me is this complete? lack of continuity in trumps decision making. I think we kind of new this existed, but it seems like making one decision at the time in this the last week, kind of crystallizes it perfectly where the since he hires pushes as chief of staff and its chief of the chief of staff with higher in his place, pushes that person out like that. It's ridiculous and it's you know it kind of reminds me of a moment on the apprentice where Trump is too all about loyalty and they still trying to be alone to his losing team offers.
His immunity so that he could also be considered with his team to kind of be built up. Joe and tramped, as you know, without any Continuity whatsoever discuss well that was stupid, you're fired and fires, the guy who, like he was praising attributes about in its risk analysis kind of absurd. and thinking about how, if you work for him, you, no. How he's gonna act is unpredictable. You don't know what exactly he wants and how do you go independently about accomplished? he's cause. If you have anxiety? In the back of your hat? I have no idea. I actually think it useful to compare this to some. The Obama chief staff most because, usually when there is a chief of staff transition, it is meant to respond to both external and internal circle. dance itself Rama Manual, islamist original chief of staff, and he leaves run for mayor of Chicago, it's not clear if you would allow at the same time otherwise, but he least run from air,
now, the Emmanuel period for Obama is extremely extremely productive. They get a ton of stuffed up very very quickly, but it comes at the cost of Obama's popularity. It comes cost of any kind of posts, partisan brand. He once had a comes because of him becoming a very polarizing figure, and so after an interim period bringing bill daily and build daily was an establishment. Washington guy, with very good relationships, are on the right and the left thus on the left, but the right and the centre left. Maybe he comes in and its clear with the theory is bill. Dailies gonna come and he's gonna be Obama's. Consider the air to try to make deals with John Bain Autonomy. Gills Mitch Mcconnell to try to do a little bit of what Bill Clinton did and Bill Daley had work for Clinton when Clinton face Republican Congress that didn't end up working out cuz for all kinds of reasons that this is not like
Three bilbil! I do not end up being very effective, I mean it was not a good choice, but you gotta understand the choice was now Trump is facing a situation where his legislative agenda is completely stalled in Congress, he does not appear to have deep or diesel relationships with proper co legislators. He does not appear to have you seen him. self a clear agenda or clear ideology. There's a lot of chaos in what they are trying to accomplish I now there is also an internal White house. It is very fractious and has a lot of computing power centres you
Imagine Kelly, at least theoretically, to Trump as being an answer for the White House with a lot of internal computing power centers, although it isn't a hundred percent clear what you do about that, because Trump generally likes to have competing power centers and he himself raises people up and kick some down and he is uncontrollable and does not stay on message. So the idea that Kelly is going to come and fix that situation, given that its cause is Trump seems a little bit unlikely to me, but for the other problem the problem where they are not getting very much done. Their major initiatives are stalled. There's no way that there's no clear path for healthcare form to come back, there's no clear path: tax reform to do anything at all nobody's heard about infrastructure. for a long time now. Kelly not know anything about these issues Kelly not have a lot of relationships on the hill? Among Republicans, among Democrats, I'm sure he's got some. He was a
a legislatively as on the at some point, I think for the Marines, if I'm not wrong, but he does not have deep well of experience and how to deal with Congress and stronger. Had you with Congress on domestic and economic power. Seeing until this was a real chaotic question here, like what problems is Kelly gonna solve what theory is he gonna bring to bear and what is even have pinions on because now you're in a place where they range previous one thing. He really was with trumps conduit to the Republican Party, very close, the Paul Ryan vehicles with a lot of members republican Party with donors with activist group, the interest groups, he played a coordinating role here and he had the power to play that role chief of staff as an important job Kelly doesn't know those people doesn't really care about the things they care about and does
want to play that role. So I think this is an argument that the White us getting a better manager and and for Kelly, did to immediately defend a straight the mooch I mean that was a good start, but they're much deeper problems here and it's like its notable, but the chump invitation that their their internal staffing is so chaotic locked up. They don't even didn't even of the space right now to deal with their external problems or anything this raises a question of if we had a pivot point raised, Separation between the White House and the Republican Party think we know when Trump came into office. Armor taping episodes of the weeds in January where it filled the goose. I an open question like: is you going to govern like a traditional public can or is he just the ito cause he had? All sorts of priorities are out of step with the Republican Party during the during the primary and during the election he kept saying I'm not a normal republic again, I'm going to cover everybody and one of these different plans, and then he felt very
quickly in step and seem to be just kind of governing as a traditional republican press and in one thing I'm curious to watch going forward as we see brains previously, as we seek and of this exodus of the folks who were the tether to there public and party, is whether that remains to be the case say you know another question. Circling back to what Alvin saying about working in the circumstances. I don't see how you attract a good people to work in the White House going forward like it's been made pretty clear, you can be forced out any time and can be very embarrassing lake. You knew it that period on your reza. May you just don't really mention and hope. No one asks about like this ten day period. That is this weird little gap on or near resonate when you're searching for jobs. It seems like a half cell in more than just the White House, but the Bennett till two? You know come into this job, where your boss will criticise you public.
glee at any point, will fire you He feels I git him. The Moody's in that day well making jokes in front of voice. How about you? firing you if you don't get something dine, it's just a very uncertain, We'll situation- and you know it's almost a bit of snow- by making it so chaotic think it gets harder and harder to recruit, could keep all who likely of many other job opportunities. To say like this is the thing I want to spend some time doing. yeah. I agree with that. An end here Maybe if you want to look at it in a different way, different interpretation.
let's say that you're a corrupt, complicated administration regime, they are corrupt regime. One of the problems you have is figuring out how to get people in who are truly gonna, be loyal to U verse of people who might not be loyal to you and that's a problem, because when people come and apply for jobs who want power, they they want the connections it'll bring the money they might lie to you right like this is a problem that regimes face all over the part of the authoritarian regimes, and one thing you can do is you can create a situation in which clear that only the truly not just a truly loyal, but those without any other options will thrive. So it's amazing about the way trumpets treated sessions in previous. Is you have there to his most important loyalists previous really really really made the art see at a time when people wanted to tilt against Trump an ally of trumps. He you
the urgency to build the campaign. Operation Trump had never bothered to build on the night. Trump won the election in his victory speech, he talked about how important purpose was he's a tall superstar any actually asked previous to come up and say a couple words Jake, just speaking to how much he here he was in them. The same thing. three nights. Future accessions was the first major politician to endorse Trump Trump called him up. He singled out for special priority was the first one to endorse me and then this up will, they trumpets turned on both. I mean he let previous be humiliated by scare me for months now, I mean he's been talking to people publicly privately about his disappointment with his chief of staff. With sessions he's dead. Petitions was ever even load him in the first place. I, like all, I just had big rallies in Alabama successions, jumped on board he'd. Rather, a lot of places or big and republican senators should not jump on board.
and so one thing with his doing. I think you know you you're a hearing that internal to the administration pupil I grex teller, soon, I'm beginning to think about leaving because I use this is not good. You don't want to be part of this got rodeo and if that's the case right, if you begin to have an attrition of people who are independent enough to fear that they're going to come in under trumps bad side, because I am my god of previous sessions- do nobody safe there the people who come next, all the a sudden you can have governor solid governors and captains of industry coming in this administration. The only people you'll have a people like scary, He who they have no other opportunity to get political power, no other opportunity to satisfy this kind of ambition and one way to make sure you have people around you who truly will be loyal. Who will Do things that are possibly unethical? Who will see anything you want them to say no matter how DOM or it is, is the only pick people who they exist, based on your patronage right to have
but who, if you're, not behind them, there is nothing for them anymore. and so one way of looking at this- and I'm not saying it's done with this level of aforethought, but one way of looking at it is that as much as it means he's not gonna get the best people anymore. If he ever could it does mean that he will get the most loyal and he will get the people who are willing sacrifice the most of themselves and take on the most risk to be near him, because nobody else will apply, and The Ceta, like that's, a very effective filtering mechanism, people who will help protect you from investigation or will lie for you publicly now the country shouldn't want that that I think that's where we're going one speak site large role that the term family now plays in that trunk. Quite right, I think like it, if you're gonna fit that role being related to their presidents, puts you end in some better standing to that in that way mean one really interesting aspect to this is he seems to want people
create a reality for him through their performance to repeating. flies over and over again in a convincing manner, and which is why you know, even when scare Murky said these to kill us things. Terrain, Lizzie, Tromp, applauded them first and its end. I think this is what pasta waves chance, baser didn't last very long So I think it's and I've been doing what breeding on Co. What makes a Fox news, especially foxes and so effective in one of them is that the performance zone and you know, has been opened. One of trumps favorite shows, though the performance is an incredible, important part in kind of solidifying, something that you want to be true, and so your audience can never assume that the world in which they live. A lot of us a busy jobs. You have six meetings, two hundred thirteen emails to respond to so many books. You said you would read one day and you are also trying to live your life. Our sponsor today
can help you major early with one of those and give you back some time to help you with the rest the world's most successful people have one thing in common and it is not iq. They are hungry for knowledge. They are seeking self improvement, reading and learning every chance they get We are introducing our listeners to the blinkers tap over two thousand of the best selling nonfiction bucks transformed into powerful packs. You can reader listened to in just fifteen minutes since Europe. Listening to us, I guess you probably love the idea of learning on the go with your smartphone. Imagine if you could just listen to the key insights of nonfiction buck and just fifteen minutes with blinkers now you feast, your mind on the key ideas from the top best selling Nonfiction Box, like why nations fail The myth of a strong leader crippled America and tuna since indivisible. Right now blinkers does especial offered just for our audience, go to blinkers calm. Slash, bleeds right now to start your free trial or get three months off your yearly plan. When you joined today, that's Thinkest spelled b L
Ann Kaye. I ask tee linkage: stock, slash, weeds to start your free trial or get three months after yearly plan blinkers dot, com, slash weakens. I think it's some talk about we'd again, yeah, I'm trying to think otherwise but I had nothing to the weeds. We gotta get responds to the last term segment on marijuana policy. This is it straightforward title from Envy- are the taxation of recreational marijuana evidence from Washington Stage MID term a trio of economists at the University of Oregon and Benjamin and send Keaton Miller and Caroline Weber, and they look at this kind of unique experiment on what happens when taxation on legal marijuana changes, which is an experiment, you can do more and more you have more state some legalizing marijuana and they at this moment where the Washington state Legislature for reasons to get into decided to change the way it
Axes marijuana in the state it when it started. Gold marijuana. Washington would have a twenty five percent of gross receipts tax, which meant that at each time The marijuana changes hands you of this twenty five percent tax. This really encourage lot of integration and the marijuana industry. If you were, you know not switching hands. If you were doing there were certainly, the warrant allowed you are not allowed to be the grower and the seller, their certain forces preparations. But you saw me more integration, and then you saw the switch to a thirty seven percent excise tax at retail that happen very suddenly and unexpectedly offers on all the taxes were at the point of purchase it? Actually, I was interested I was wanted suggested this paper is interested in it because it feels like a very clear clean example of how tat is really do induce different behaviour. So you see a few things happening one. Is you see, integration declining in the in the supply chain?
where, when there is less of a tax incentive to be integrated, then you you knew, you don't necessarily feel the need to do that if the taxes are just being paid at the point of perch then you know, there's no red. There is less of a reason to have an integrated supply chain, which you know the authors posit LISA, much worrisome, possibly better quality of marijuana if other pieces are working together, less or more transverse epidemiology system. The thing. They do. Is there a way to test a little bed for em, alas, to city for demand for marijuana? How much people respond when I'm pray this change and one thing they see as when you move to their sales tax a similar marijuana product goes up about two point: three percent and you don't see it stopping to buy marijuana, but they start buying lower quality products? They start. You know responding particularly after a few weeks. It seems like the response is not immediately, but within a few weeks you see people. So the sitting for less potent marijuana with less each see end
right now met marijuana. Taxation is all over the place, the taxes they range from four percent in every, at which stated as before, presenting one state as legal marijuana up to thirty seven percent in Washington, which has the highest tax rate and that this is in a burgeoning industry. An interesting look at how how much the tax policy and marijuana is influencing how the industry operates and what people are purchasing. So this tax to me, it gives a wild success gosh. I, when I thought two marijuana policy experts, think they are always afraid of is too much vertical integration. They are terrified that we're going the Budweiser the Miller of Marijuana, these huge conglomerates. It are extremely good at creating all kinds of hyper potent products that are aimed addicting people right- I recognise- ignore one- is a physical, addictive. What people do end up psychologically, dick
do you do have a lot of problem users, these kinds of beer companies and of all companies. They exist based on selling to their heaviest users, not the people who buy once or twice a month, but the people by all the time- and this has been a lot of fear- that what you would get it even to somebody? What you are getting is just big integrated superpower fall and very effective conglomerates, and that the word beat being really effective. It selling marijuana and try to get more people onto it is actually not a social outcome we want. So it sounds like having a tax regime like this that one, reduces the incentive of vertical integration and to a more transparent to the consumer, so the consumer feels a little bit more of the pinch and they subsidy down to us put in products. That seems like a win win me one of them. One of the fascinating things here is because this tax change the consumer's decided
eventually, but after a few weeks to buy less potent part like that is I dont know why that is just such a clear line between your. Legislator decides. I think you sound like a second special session that do they decided unexpectedly to pass this pill and that tax change causes you to go into this dispensary and by a slightly where's part and in its it's interesting that the eye There is essentially say: you're, not the end. They say where we might be near the laughter at the peak of the latter curve, but let's be careful here that we're not giving people worse part. I mean I kind of like chuckled when I saw that yeah. I was also kind of surprise that the judgment like this is worse pipe think, that's actually a little bit debate in terms of what we are trying to achieve. I get for like the consumer, it is probably delivering uh huh. I will, if anyone,
I'm not a marijuana user. So if I describe any of this and weird ways that is excellent explanation. Why? But I guess presumably it is delivering less of a high or whatever other people find enjoy of all about marijuana that I have not found, but that they describe it like. Oh, you know it's worse weed, I mean like you, could also from the other side is Ezra, describing it like actually you're, producing these social reaction. You would want of a less potency and in attaching more cause to the most potent most I dont know the best high the vista that our most enjoyable to begin assemblies, not a total nerd and could have about our lot of Asia. You're, so colleagues with all of Us Marian says that that's that's actually the point relic. That's why I think this is it this, isn't that bad marijuana scudded much more potent over the past fifty years and for a lot of people, not a better experience. Right I mean, if you
I would endorse that find. This is where you get in this sort of regular height. this region into heavy regular user verses, not that regular user. The much more potent marijuana, is much better for the heavy regular user, who has a lot of tolerance built up, who, you know really knows how to navigate the after path that that might be better for them. It's not better for the personal, is occasionally and so again like What all the marijuana expert seemed to say in and when her mom Lopez are right on this boat will tell you do. Is you want a regime the pushes away from big companies get better, better and better at creating products aimed at the heaviest users and towards a regime that is Lena works well for casually users and and works for heavy users. Budgets is not about tenuous Lee, showing growth. You can justify your share price, and so this this
seems great. I think it is funny that in the end, the Paypal I got it, this pot is worse. I mean just legalised stuff at Washington like it gives you say we we have. We needed, like Spencer Timeframe, about what we're trying it out and now the policy is all over the place at hundreds of small paragraph from the paper where they say right now, Colorado requires retail firms to grow. Eighty percent of the product they sell, which is like a huge push towards integration. Massachusetts tax rate of three point: seven five percent compared to Washington's thirty seven percent- I think other- its or somewhere in the middle, but the post is all over the place and I think it speaks to somewhat of a computer, in an figuring out like what are we trying to do here. Are we trying to get people like super potent marijuana, good price and like that would be good to some people but like to someone
I don't know who like tries inedible once has a really bad experience. I don't know who has a social negative there. It is to a lot of lack of clarity? Of What is the goal? taxation policy and marijuana like what do we want to do and I think states are really just figuring it? right now and figuring out it. I think it's a little different from others, things we tax, you know where we're still trying it there's an there's, a kind of influence of science. It meant with that that there is so many things. there's going on in that there is still a lot confusion of what is true. we achieved with marijuana tax policy will, I think, we've all learned something important about Sarah I want you to listen to the end really really got to. This has been another episode of the we'd. Take it at all then Chang for joining us today think our producer, Peter Leonard,
We have few announcement. We know we will get you some announcements we are on summer vacation this Friday. There will not be a Friday weeds out, while so what you should do. However, there is a few things when you have that free our time on Friday. One could do you could look into an episode of worldly, which will be coming out on Thursday. It is a great podcast about foreign affairs. You can listen to an episode of. I think your interesting hosted by our cultural credit, Todd Vander Worth and we get outside. of the world of politics and policy in you can join our Facebook group come hang out in it. It's a lot of fun. You can hang up on Friday when we are not podcasting and talk about. That was fun. The fine old Sarah why that was called what else by
do. If you are looking at today s sorry, I had a good guy. Just assume that everyone was already listening thing is that without european testing children, whose unanswered mind this week also bug talking about Trump and liberalism and also liberalism in the country it turns out, we or is it and members of constantly care? If you launch into All tat sort of foundational issues are of law and democratic processes work? But anyway? Do you finish all these other particles likes better. You can check out the reclined so to it my it's. Why think That is all from us, and we will see you next week.
Transcript generated on 2021-09-13.