This, we support, is also sponsored by Nature box, good nature, Baxter COM, slash weeds for fifty percent off your first order. The following podcast contains explicit language should be less, that's it at a second time: medication. First, Amana somewhat what a pity Correction, Ella, welcome to another episode of the weeds boxes, policy, pod, customer panoply network Azra, is on haitian and, I believe in Arizona and Sarah is off reporting someplace in the wilds of Kentucky. I saw it the ground with her at what I believe was the Kentucky Fried Chicken museum. So I hope we're gonna get some. Some hot KFC takes for a vegetarian when she's back for this week, I am joined by my esteemed colleague, Libby Nelson of vocs dot com. It's really good to have you here, I'm at high. You do a couple of says of weeds before so. Hopefully, people

you and what it wanted. Just start up by time. Out is education, which is where you have a lot of background as a journalist and which, I would say, did not play a Our role in the twenty sixteen that campaign that is get a dramatic understatement. There is this game in the education policy journals and community, which is small, vibrant during the debates during the campaign of lake just betting on when would ever mention education, and I was basically the person saying shut up. You ve never going to mention education, so yeah Kate, while particularly, I actually can't think of a time It was mentioned in any significant way. It's possible. He made a school choice speech at some way, but it never came up in the debate. It never came up. It's like a big p as the area of contention. And yet here we are, it wasn't in his rally. We basically had to fire. You shit you onto a different bead, entirely business. Really do a is not kidding. I was not fired, but like yeah.

I mean you can see how much Donald Trump Tottenham, ok, twelve education was not in the campaign because you think about education in the campaign. It was Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders argue about call it right- and even I mean even trumps, one of President Lech trumps more interesting ideas was all but higher at I mean it was very much the frame and four for good reasons. I think the last time I was on this podcast was to basically talk about the way in which case twelve had been put to rest by the new law that Congress Power, about a year ago and Obama signed in January? It really like big debates about the future of K. Twelve in America, we're going to be suspended for the net, you know four years at least arguably aid. It just was not a front runner issue, and so we did not have a big debate about it, as you predicted, but I red on the internet website box. I com recently that Donald Trump,

actually has an ambitious k, twelve education proposal that he has- I guess, never chest, but found it somewhere. He did ok, so I am originating in little need one speech about that. I'm a campaign trail, I dont believe otherwise. I was so sort of not on the education beat that I am not sure that I checked. I dont believe there were many details at the time, but there is on his campaign website, which now, after he is one, actually looks like a normal campaign website with all other policy areas rather than building the wall. and like to others, there is aid, a section on Kate, twelve and he essentially has a plan to convert the entire. Our system of funding for the poor kids in schools into voucher system, which is a pretty dandridge or public and idea, and then has this weird multiplier effect proposal that would actually create a very robust system of school vouchers at the federal level for the first time. Ok, so lets us back this back this up by

and so that the federal government is not like the primary act in income: twelve education, but it has. This pretty significant funding streamium that the UE reference said that is supposed to finance education in districts that have a lot of low income children the work it gets caught? The title one programme? There's it's about fourteen billion a year which is a drop in the bucket in terms of how much peoples spent on education nationally, but it is it, it is the most significant federal presence in the idea is their grants that are meant to go prudent but primarily to schools with a pretty high concentration of disadvantage. Kids- measured by getting who qualifies for free or cheaper school lunch, and under current policy I mean: what do you do with that money, as as a sort of high powered

school, you can so you can use it on professional development. You can use an additional resources. There actually are some studies that suggested doesn't make a huge amount of difference either way, but it is meant to go to the school and it's meant to be a resource to sort of help. With this challenge of educating concentrated population of of dissidents, I mean, I think, in D c, I think like him at schools or turn into use the money to do preschool offerings that don't exist in that wealthy yeah. They can do that. They could do sort of remedial tutoring tape, stuff they can hire. People did to train teachers, there's a lot that they can do it. That bet it's also a pretty. I mean it's a big programme when I say it's, you know, concentrate schools of concentrated poverty, about half of all american school kids, get free or reduced price, didn't live

and I think the threshold for title one is somewhere it's below half. If you have below half of your student body meeting that, so that's the lot of school there soon party that is read, so the public school population is considerably poorer than the national everyone here that the threshold for fur, reduced and free lunches is higher than the threshold for poverty is another thing. I should mention that Tibet, two hundred percent- that were already open so alone Schools are getting this money and idea of the money as it currently stands is like you have your core school. I know you have a little bit of extra money that you can use in a lot of different way right at we have them like five hundred iceberg had five hundred fifty dollars. We read with the goal of somehow helping a trump wants to take them

any and do what he wants to turn it into a voucher, which means basically in this context, that instead of a school with that hit that threshold getting more of this money, every pork head would come with sort of a small federal bounty of like five hunt. Five hundred fifty dollars or whatever it is that would go to whatever school there attending, regardless of whether that the public school, a private, school or charters. and this is by the way I should say this- is a really really standard republican where policy proposals called title, one portability, if you wanted, sound smart around education policy people. So, when ethical sense that might make not that much difference can see the only way to media if kit, kids, my just stay in the schools that they were in the schools would still get the five hundred dollars by place. It was so like Dc. Has a big tartar school yeah sector.

and so that would mean that money would tend to flow out of the neighborhood schools and into the charter's. Yet. The other place where it make a big difference is that schools, like the schools that I went to, which were not schools with a lot of concentrated poverty, but because there were play, often small apartment complexes and things there were ass. You know small handful of kids who got priorities, didn't lunch and that's they at the time the score really did not get any money for them. This would mean that those suburban schools, wealthier schools, would end up with at least a little slice of that kind. Ok, so so low poverty. Schools would get more federal, mind right, high poverty schools would get less federal money, The idea is, kids should be able to transfer within a district, and so the money would follow them, and that's where this are the voucher idea. Come then, by a light, when you think about the fact that out of the inequalities between districts rather than within them that certified. This runs into a bit of a wall in terms of making concrete difference for four kids education bright right way

ok, so that's fourteen billion dollars, it's a change that I mean I don't want to dismiss it. Obviously, some schools would lose a lot of money under this and and no requirement ride. So like a school rich area would get a little bit more money because it has some low income kids in it, but there will be no requirement to like spend that money on specifically helping those AIDS is opposed their journey, I dont know delay jars army. I don't believe so. I'm trying to think if that within this has come up legislatively a lot, and I don't think there is a requirement in the latest, what sort of adoration of that and the re right, no child left behind that happened last year. Part of it was like softening the requirements and school to write to meet performance standards for certain underperforming groups white, so right,

I say this came up this give up as an amendment eight rest, it's one of those amendments that is hard core beloved by a pretty large segment of Republican than Congress by practically dough. Bhamo is never going to sign men in the law, and so it it dropped off during the during based on the benefits of that means. This is something that seems like it has a high likelihood of happening in a republican Congress republican administration that it the reason it didn't happen in the last bell is that they wanted to get a deal done yet I would I mean I, I am hesitant to predict anything, but I would say it's fair to say there is strong support among Republicans in both the house in the Senate, including the chairman of the Senate Education Committee, on this idea right. So it's it certainly not outside the realm of possibility. It is certainly more of a hard core republican base thing than a everybody things, so it's possible. It would run into something in the Senate that I'm not thinking about but lake, its yeah,

it certainly not a crazy idea in terms of whether or not it's likely to happen so it's they ve been pushing Yasmine sorted. This goes back to Reagan threatens not. This is not new, ok, but there's a there's like a bigger element. Yes, listen for transplant to really interesting, weird. However, you sort of what I want to look at it, because the fact is the five hundred and fifty five dollar voucher. If you're looking at wanting to Greeley due to either some kids out of the public school system or in the words of of supporters of this plan, would be to really give them a meaningful choice, Five hundred fifty dollar voucher is not going to give you much of a meaningful choice if you're looking at the cost of private school tuition, and so what term wants to do is to Somehow sort of turn title wine, I this funding for poor kids pleasant, strict six billion from sources, Webby D, probably special education, into a sort of big grant programme for states and then a word that grant.

In a way that incentivize is getting states to kick in a pretty significant. their own money to turn this into a voucher. If that would magically give students link between, I think it's ten to twelve thousand dollars does it really that, like that's a meaningful amount of money, so so the idea here is this would create a states that have by a lot of Republicans in elective office, who may be inclined towards hey. Maybe we should do a giant voucher programme, but our maybe like worried about the practicalities of that Bolivar. It would become much more of a sort of downhill yellow, but if you, if you were predisposed to thing thou during the public school system was a good idea now, the federal government would be will financially in centralizing you to do that, whereas under the current system,

A little bit challenge: yeah you're you're, pretty much on your own. You couldn't you certainly can there are states that have state what about your programmes and we can talk about the evidence from those. But if you are, a Republican can old state, somewhat inclined that way. This is the optimistic or the these sort of optimistic version for Republicans in Hungary too, I don't think we would have some issue. I think with sort of the federal government saying and now all states you must also do this- is that it would provide cover the way trumpets phrased it. It sounds like something more than that, it sounds like it's actually incentivize vouchers in some way. The other thing that that sort of gets you to a larger amount per kid is. This is only for children and poverty, which is about eleven million kids, and that's it smaller number than the number of kids who were considered, quoting quote poor, more title one purposes, so this is leaving out a big chunk of lake poor, but not quite that poor soul, the very important and very open so we should settle

and try to understand how this goes like something were. I have frequently been. A little uncertain is like what is a vow church programme, verses charter schools, Anne and other things that are there in that. So we know like a traditional public school. The idea is, like you have a house somewhere in you go to a map. You re the map says: ok, the kids who live here go to school. and then like there, you go, and maybe there's some provision that you could apply to the school in their neighbourhood and that's like public schools re as we know it yeah This is the sexually pretty important if we are talking about the context of education or form, because there's a sort of broader movement school ways, and that is just sort of the idea that you should have any kind of choice. That is not just the school years out did well and that sort of splits off politically leg said the first, the first level that is its charter schools, which are privately right.

Independently Rhine, sometimes by a buyer, for profit company? Usually nine and publicly funded, and so those have some of the characteristics of a private school in terms of being more independent. Not necessarily having to have unionized teachers not having to abide by the collective bargaining agreements, doing things like a longer school day having aims, but are still sort of em Turner's charter supporters. Will adamantly tell you that the charter schools public schools and so our sort of part of the idea of public schools as a whole vouchers, our Hallstatt beyond that, which is essentially you get honestly. The best way to think about vouchers is to think about how college financing works in America. If you are poor and you qualify for a programme you get that Mount amount of money. You can go to any college. You choose the federal. That will send that money to that college. It will pay your tuition and that's essentially about your work. You have eczema money from the state and or local and or private in some cases, a privately funded voucher program. You can go to

these school, that will take them, which is not necessarily every public schools, are every privates hold that exists around you and that money will will floated. That's back. I still find this distinction between the vouchers and in the charter. Schools. A little bed puzzling right so lacking in DC. We we have allowed charter school. that way there around round. You can send your kid to them. Those schools get money from the. I don't know like the city's education department. Ride proportionate. To the amount of kid sore enrolled in them right, but also those schools there, one independently and they have at least some of them, have like extrinsic financial support to ride so like so like day. They kept in Shaw where, where we live, it gets money from the city where Its role there, but also there like a big well known national

Charlie School Brand, that, like rich people who like them, give money to. They have some supper bored so like how. How is that different from there's a private school called cap that has some donors and also collects money from the students who come there? He I mean the big differences relate. the vast majority of private schools in the. U S are not secular and whilst chartered I mean some charter, schools are like affiliated in some ways with the religious groups. There's this weird controversy about turkish ones. It doesn't really matter. Five at schools. Privates will vouchers in effect the effect it has. A massive transfer funds from sort of non secular of nine affiliated secular institutions to mostly Catholic religiously affiliated its use. The big where the other one is that, while charter schools can do

some things and then have to be very careful here. As far as selecting the students that they have in some cases, private schools could do a whole lot. More ok so, ok, so it so. I think that is important, so so to qualify as a charter school in most charter systems. These two things you have to do that a private god doesn't To do one is that, like four first amendment reasons you can't have like crucifixes up in the class were right. You can't have like organised pray, actively use things like that. I mean he had generally could, in theory, opening charter school that would have to function as a yeah. You would have to function like a non affiliated to all. In this, the same stuff that, like has bugged religious people, about public It is rather like you can't. You can have like a Bible study, guys like a thing or eat, so so that's one and then the other is that the admissions has to be open in some sense,

you have lotteries when their oversubscribed or you have. I think it's some places you can have like a neighborhood preference systems, but you can't say you have to take at tat yeah there were their ways like you couldn't in some there have been cases where their parental involvement I mean there are some things we can do to sort of Niger admissions toward getting kids who are more qualified, but that is a world of difference from like we will look at your grades and your behavior record and we will just arbiter. They decide as admissions committee, whether or not this is like an allegation rights like any New York. It is frequently alleged as if scandalous charge that evil Moskowitz charter, schools are implicitly screening out underperforming, misbehaving yeah we're. If you were to say that about the city's parochial schools, they would bill. I guess that is we get that right? That's one of the reasons parents like us, like we're, elaborate, do that.

so would charter schools. It's like a controversy or they viewed or they secretly on the sly, getting rid of the trouble kid right. Yeah encouraging the veterans retain its it's like a you're, not supposed. It is not the ideal of what a charters, whereas I think is the whereas in the programme school system, that's like feature right like that's like one of the main reasons. Parents would say they would say like get. No, we want them to the school where their stricter discipline were there not dealing with whatever grave problem cases so, What sort of push aside this whole realm of controversies about like, or the charter schools? Really just working by buying the widow creams, can re reactions coming here, and we were just like embraced right and that's why I mean there's that that's why they couldn't what's will choice? Move it? There's a really big divide between light charters. Only Democrats doing

Duncan irony, Duncan Obama's former education secretary president about himself and Republicans whereby, more concerned about that may support charter schools in most of them do but are much more concerned about sort of broadening this universe to include all of these private schools that are that are that is really a bridge too far for for virtually all democrats. If you are anything like me, you know sometimes you want a snack and if, what's a wound snack on his junk food, you gonna eat junk food and it's not great.

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Whereas the give everybody money to go to the local catholic school agenda has like it like a different target audience really seems the really interesting thing about school vouchers is that there are like three different target audience these two, I think that having very theory and I'm gonna forget that there. But it's it's a it's an idea that you can describe and very different terms, depending on who you're trying to appeal to the one part of it is This social to see reforming language, which is pretty much identical to wide darning dunkard would say about charters where switches, if you're, rich or well well off. You have the opportunity to buy a house in a good school district where that is exercising school choice. Vouchers give poor families who are stuck with whatever they can afford the operate,

the need to exercise some kind of running full choice over their kids education accompanying that there is this sort of debate about whether they are best for african american kids in cities, in particular that we know what, when we talk about evidence, the other half of it. Much more liberal. an argument that is much less about, the sort of moral imperative of letting certain families you don't have a choice, have a choice and much more about this idea. That vouchers will force all schools to compete we will be better off for having traces, let's open the market place and is Less about improving education phrase, specific sector of kids and is more about just Lake public School should have a monopoly, and third ok, there's a third and then the third a sort of aid. This is a much more coded appeal by even Dolokhov Love School vouchers. They mostly go to Catholic School,

in terms of where the private schools are in America by the group. That is really a hundred percent huge on them is the religious right and that part of sort of withdrawing from the public schools that a casting of the public schools, as it malign Forest and America that goes back to sort of the very early days, the bachelor movement in the nineteenth ride. So so I mean for their perspective right. So it's I mean that the catholic church likes the idea of creating more funding for their programmes, so that insensitivity catholic legit lack basic buggy also already have a big, parochial school system, but you, ve, been chemicals which would have liked to get off the ground. Yeah. What is it is off the ground, but it sort of this idea that you don't really say when you're talking about Catholic School, that evangelicals particularly in the seventies, Eightys and Ninetys, had like very specific things. They objected to the public schools. They objected to the Supreme Court decision on school prayer, they objected to school integration, and that was a huge found exactly the religious right, and there was this idea.

That might tax dollars or supporting a system that doesn't include me they went out. where the huge boom in inserted evangelical K. Twelve school variation wishes kind of didn't exist before that by it it doesn't have. The kind of you know established infrastructure that paragraph parochial schools do there's. This idea that, like morally objectionable for them not to be able to send tax dollars to schools that they support, but just wait. Wonderful because when we talk about the Trump propose with this question of like the skull right, if you have a voucher system for kids living below the poverty line, that is not going to achieve, group three is go on establishing, whereas if I, like full scale right, if you just said: okay, instead of running an elaborate public school system, we're going to give we're going to take up how much money we spend on public education. We're going to take dark kids do

and Hanover by check, then you would have like middle class. Why evangelical suburban nights going to maybe just like church affiliated schools, yeah that you know don't each evolution that do proper bible, moral instruction but vague, think that's like that's a dream, but it requires a much bigger, policy than even this pretty big trump yeah in a much bigger policy than really exists anywhere, except Nevada is sort of taking little steps toward it through education savings accounts which a sort of a different it's very separate from trumps proposal. I think it is fair to say like that idea that includes like middle class support non poor, non disabled reds. There is not about your programme right now that is doing there all even the biggest statewide ones which are in a higher in the media and a couple was content. Those have some kind of income rattled

so I mean it's important understand that, though, because it's like one of these different political impulse, it is for this reason wine is like a very intellectual like Milton Friedman, rain filtering DOW one leg in principle: This is a better way to organise public services. So, but change is hard. so we want to start with the neediest caissons and whatever we think there will be empirically validated results that show this court of workers and that will like build support, which is different from lake. This don't really like an evidence based argument about whether or not sending kids to schools that do proper evangelical moral education

works or not. I may not be works right I mean. If it would, you want to go to a school where they will receive Bible based religious instruction and sending them to a school where they receive that is going to work and setting them through traditional public school is not going to work yeah that sort of an interesting thing in the looking at the vouch argument as a whole, because there is evidence on whether or not it works with rough men is middling, but there also is like for almost everybody who has an opinion about school vouchers, whether or not they work sort of beside the point. It's you know, is it a do you think it is like morally objectionable? The really big flashpoints are not like I'm like the charter's scope of that, because most liberals and the education for business see themselves as are in their education reform. Sweden. world see themselves as motivated by, like empirical evidence, actual improvement. Make it may well be cleared, I mean, like lay academic performance in yes, try I mean,

this is the point that, like the evangelical objection to the public school system dating Back Seventys was not about your has So I mean I would say that they don't care if it works, but that, like what they think is not working is not like that the Thames scores. right. And it's like what you find a persuasive argument. As you know, there is the sort of undercurrent in most of most of the charter school debate, the lake. If charter schools aren't delivering a better education than traditional public schools, we shouldn't do them right. There a version of that argument about school vouchers. But it's not the primary argument about projects. So, let's get out of it. yeah, because when I was a wee lad- and I got my may one of my very first assignments- great story- I was- was re about some studies, I'm a walkie voucher programme. This was thirteen years ago, so the study would be fifty

You can read about actually guarantee you. I've read Et Cetera them all. So so I This up- and I said well These studies show that the kids, who get the vouchers do about as well as the kids. You don't get. The vouchers which is no not that well being in Milwaukee schools or garbage but the parents say their happier and so does Like a reasonable tradeoff to me, then I was to learn and evil game for your had. No, no, no, not people just just editor like actually the point of this assignment was to say that we had run this big test on the Moluccas. About your programme and we'd prove that it doesn't work. So I mean, like I changed the story. The editors man. This study does say that right, and this goes back to your other thing. Why do you again? This was old

sure they have been more studies and there's more evidence, but these studies of the more give out your programme, circa, two thousand three- did show that if by work you mean the kids who get the vouchers did, better on standardized tests than the kids who didn't it did not work. Now if by work you mean the people who had the vouchers like them It seemed to be working grey, they said that they, yet I mean they really ass. They were sending their kids mostly to catholic schools in Milwaukee. Catholic Schools, made them wear uniforms. They kick kids out who were misbehaving, the parents who were in those squaws thought that that was good and if you think fur like a minute about like like what look, why does communism that work, and likewise capitalism, good

The thing that like free markets are amazing at is like they give people things that they want It's like if you want orange pants and get aren't parents. If you want to send your kid to a school where none will yell at the least you could do is go where a memory album and then the customers did come away happier with that, but the kids will not actually doing better in school and, honestly, like that's that sort of far away from sort of the big debate here Ben about twenty or twenty five studies. Like that, I invite your programs in six. I think six city, two states, but let me first cities in two states: it's not all that many please! It's not that many places does one thinks that, where sort of studying these same programmes over and over and over again and like teasing at the results about half of the studies that make the pro Sure Friedman Foundation sites in its light, gluing evidence review of good research trains. Vouchers work actually did not really find the vouchers.

You were talking about worked in that narrow academic, improve what sense the rest of them found. They worked a little bit. They worked for one group, usually african merganser dance, but not really for anybody else. They worked in the sense that translation rates were higher, which, if that does not really shocked me if you think about the difference between a public school in a private school, but they do not work in the sense that kid's enrolled in college. More I mean it's, it's really put mixed, which is not a typical for anything. Education, that's pretty widespread, and so then you started come down to like well for the most varied it didn't seem to make things worse there. interesting thing as there have been more recent studies on statewide voucher programmes in Ohio in Louisiana found multiple times that they did make things worse for the kids who got through an education that, by the way, is like a pretty shocking finding leg. It didn't make that much of it France is a pretty common conclusion which I, like even nationally charter schools were his public schools. It's like the average charter school and the average publics

we're not necessarily all that different, seeing a big positive changes. Pretty unusual, and that's why those days are talked about a lot seeing a big negative changes insane right and but but I'm into to look at the at the Turner evidence to I mean one. things alleys. It seems to me we see in the charter. Evidence is that the smaller tartar programmes tend to be the they have. The best result is right It's like you get alot of like dueling, takes what a guy like, oh in Bonn, stand. They have this, I really strict cap, but the charter schools are, the amazing. So it's such a bummer which really raise the camp The critics will be like in Arizona they just like open up. their schools and every street corner in their garbage day and Belgium seemed to show something. So What similar to that, where did it's? The biggest programmes are the ones that look worst yes and was gone

sort of has an asterisk on it, because the full evidence from that it was like dramatically expanded a couple years ago had evidence. That's it we're gonna. What would you do that Louisiana, Ohio or both fairly recent statewide programmes? In both cases, kids, who got vouchers, ended up doing work in a significant way laid at the next year? And I believe the following year on state has then kids who got the vouchers but chose the same public schools and I mean Louisiana. Public schools are not like the prize pig of the global education system. Ray. I mean this. Is that the Israeli? It's a pretty disturbing finance when they were there is in Provo it. One of the studies was written by a generally provost. Your group was conducted by pretty probe out your group and major side. Look like this is really dismaying. We didn't expect as this is this. Is it alarming resolve? So what like? What will happen there like? What? What is because I mean

Yeah there's a couple: there isn't really they Anna one is like you don't I'll. Have not every private scholastic vouchers like the village platonic ideal of about your programme is the one in DC is trotted out, but the one in DC, which is like one or two He heads gets the DC voucher and goes to school with such Malea Bomber said, while France, where there is like one kid every year, who does that wealth, but mostly no private schools, don't have to take them the province. that do take them. The theory in Louisiana Wise, where Lake Catholic schools that were struggling and wanted this federal or the state money too. You know go to them, which is not like a great incentive for schools to be providing the best of possible education's. So the idea is basically lake. The port, the worst private schools, took them to better private schools, didn't kids like moved from their bad public schools into bad private schools and the EU. that the negative effects of changing schools and then you went to school, but wasn't better and might have been worse, and so I mean to an x

and it is used to me. We ve just had this big over the past fifteen years, serve experiment in higher education right with the theory. If we make money available to people they like. We know that a college degree as valuable, so we need- to do is make money available for marginal students to attend the school court and court of their choice, and then things will be guided and what we found. much more clearly than Louisiana that, like the crown jewels of american higher education system, dont want to enroll the marginal student who you were trying to help and they wind up going to places that are very different,

I mean both in their programme, but also in their like mentality. From like what you like comes to mind when you think of like, little Ronnie heading off the car. I think I think I can make this conquer, because this is one thing I do know a lot about. I've spent eight years with the reporting on programmes with the programme programme, which is like invest. It already kids from families and adults from families making under thirty five thousand a year, almost everyone from under fifty thousand a year. The top terror, If it research University is, unlike really great public. Universities are in rolling a tiny share of their work, so, like you could dare take your pal grant to stand fried like, but you won't like twenty percent of european body being programmes. This is considered this lake huge achievement for private university

On the other hand, the for private schools that proliferated in the nineties at an early two thousands there is a rule that they can't get more than ninety percent of their income from federal grants and loans, mostly loans, because that immigrants from cover all that much but like that is the degree to which they are real. really dependent on this. Didn't aid system and see some kids get into the really great schools and then there's this other sector that exists by default because of the existence of the aid and like that's with more quality controls that are mostly talked about in Kate, while voucher systems way, and it's a business right, unlike in business when the opportunity exists to just like role in slightly desperate customers, would you want to do is do really good more get it right at me like that's how you sell.

Fredo? Is that's how you sound like everything right like a product in a market place is now based necessarily I'm like its adherence to like an accident You know to do a certain kind of quality standard like nobody. Nobody thinks we just let s, one by whatever food they want. Then everyone will eat healthy stuff, all the time where they get stupid, Are you buy food? I mean a thing. Is all colleges to advertising for big tapped yourselves, its football but lake, You buy cheetah was, like you know, all the time in your life. The problem of education is, if you're taken in like that's your. shot like one don't get to be like that that that college experiences awful next time. Better, and if you don't get a next time literally on programmes, there is no next time you run out of eligibility rack. that's really like. When you talk about education as a marketplace there, the sort of two big problems when, as you don't get to do it over

the other. Is they, especially with college brightening. You can sort of translate this down to the K gateway level. To you, don't see the result. You don't understand if what you got was great or not for years whack. You know it's if you're too, He might return to. The labour market is like the right way to evaluate a college education. You know if you're trying to transpose this standard gateway, I would say something like being able to enroll in college and then not be totally lost- is probably a good barium. Anodyne parameter by the time you know that, like you're dine where you can't go back at me, like ok, well, that was bad next year aimed at a change schools and do something. I think that that why, with Cato schools right of like when experts Melick parents, belike exports, decide. Ok, I want to evaluate school performance,

it would be considered comically naive to just go to some public schools and like right down there graduation way, gray and then decide that the ones with high graduation rates are the good ones and always with low graduation. Wade's are the bad ones right. I mean people argue viciously like how you should do the assessment, but we all agree that if do it like if you do it like a naive output check like oh everybody graduate from this high school, unlike half of them, went to selective col. Yes, all you're gonna be saying is ok, you found a public school and affluence with the parents were highly educated ripe and they have. I really complicated mathematical models. Go into these assessments say that, like you're, not gonna do yeah like. Are you going to give kids and pray coastal state has that all is like a rather than actual question like how and it's not that people think,

sincerity having a sort of frustration with the hidden within the skull choice, movement everything's, gonna get bigger. Is that like parents, don't necessarily think that the same things are important that education, valuation experts Dale but Lake, at least at the moment that data it exists, and you can look at it in terms of taskforce and progress, which is of much progress in growth, which are much more Patrick, look like I don't you know is that even those that are now and if it does like how do? U way that against the school composition it is definitely is. There is less interest in that side of the equation. Ransford say because it's it's a belief that you should have, like the freedom to choose the right at me. I mean there's not going to Heaven may sometimes what use is bad or other people would think it is bad. What like you should be able to choose it anyway. I know, part of the case for right? Is that like, instead of having like Arnie Duncan and gates sitting around and being like? This is what a good school right like we

devise like a growth formula. Me love S, demographics and like we can now like put everything our spreadsheet and like this will tell you that, like a you may think this school around your corner is good, but actually I have proven that its garbage, I can live here and do that love to hear that that exactly without a gay does not go over well right. So the idea which I think you know it, makes some sense when you pull out of want land. Is that like we should let people decide for themselves what it is they want from kids school, but I think the evidence is what they want is not what experts would consider to be the ingredients of high performing education tat? What we

fine as a quota, and what good school is something that is like very racially economically fraud. Among other things, there have been studies of white parents look at when they can. You know if they're looking at charter schools versus their neighborhood schools, for example, the lake test scores and acre f grades- that instead We're supposed to be like labeling like this is a good school. This is not against all were often not the most important violoncello, so you know like what went by You know it's like nice, mural, sir. I mean sometimes like teat. They one if they want to know they want to think well of the teachers they ll think they think much more of a school is like a thing in the community as opposed to eat a thing of results. I think it's probably without having read the study and not laying make up something about your like that, that was sort of the overwhelming like they wanted to feel that it was like friendly, welcome in treated their kids well and that the staff- and you know the people cared and that was more important to them. Then the

the rough grade that came out based on the state test results when a lot of people like don't think that satellites tat measure anything worth measuring were wrecked were right right, so I mean the the the risk. I guess I would say like broadly with this, is that you would shift the edges Jeanne system to wine, even viewing it relatively optimistic, ran like say nothing to of all happens. We don't just have like children falling through the cracks are like out on the streets because their parents forgot. maneuver through some system but like I think, a reasonably optimistic case is still that we go. A system that works. That is where we are now like D. Emphasizes the Dear of making sure that particularly kids from low socio economic status backgrounds are like actually moving up the reading and writing ladder. Yes, I think that it

actually an extraordinarily optimistic assessment. It sort of any sort of letting go of this idea. That is obviously flawed, not carried out well at the moment, but that, like everybody, gets the public education of lake vaguely the same you know it. Let's go of that sort of unifying thing. I do think that, like, if you're talking about something as large scale that the term plan is talking about their absolutely are gonna, be kids. Were hopeful cracks because what you're doing is you're you're draining out some kids from the public school system and the money at both state and local and federal money, it round like the comes with but at the same time there are lake, thirteen million kids who are disadvantaged bit right below the poverty line there, the kids, whose behaviour record's, whose academic record's make them like less attractive prospects for private schools, it sort of like the charter versus traditional school argument of the traditional tools are left with the hijacking heads but lake objectively that it's a hundred percent for sure going to happen. Rack as

feature rights away. He actually geologists secretly still site a fact that we argue about whether or not it exerts like that guarantee. That is graduate I guess is actually worth dwelling on us for what yet so you talking about. right now, you might have like a neighborhood public school that has said: kids, who are below the poverty line, a lot of kids who are only modestly above the poverty line, so middle class kids there in a building. That is approximately four the teachers are teaching material. I ll ignored you're normal sized class right and so under the Trump plan over the very poorest kids, the ones who don't have serious behaviour or problems well, we ve tried. As you know, the school is stuck with a certain amount of fixed infrastructure costs that he can't

you can scale down you're spending some because you don't need as much pencils They might lay off some teachers. Firstly, the olive entry level like it's gotta, be a big drop to go from hiring. You know three teachers for great a two tier aren't I like that, has to be significant Where can I find you here? I am your basic like we need to heat school in the winter. We need a principle. We need to cut the grass writing. Read your costume, really fall right, so that the burden of the cost cutting really has to fall on light. The instructional services, because keeping the school running is fixed and the kids that your left with well, yet less poor population, many of them are still fairly disadvantage and you are left with the behaviour, all cases and probably the disappear,

Eddie is yeah. I mean the beard, the issue and like, if you're only talking about you know there are a lot of poor kids at America. But if your If your narrowing down the definition of poor from like disadvantage, should truly poor does change a little about the make up, but here I mean basically the the issue is that the kids were left behind are going to be the ones who can't get into private schools and in education. like in medicine. You know that the outliers are really the ones where you run most resources like these, EVA Kids, kids, who have either reveller. Its abilities are behaviour. Arts are still learning. English are really far behind me. There's many reasons you know have trackers goods of of suspensions and other punishments that are disproportionately applied based on race, like that There are many reasons why this would be a white kids would not really be able to get out with voucher, but the one.

The overwhelming majority, the overwhelming unifying theme is that their kids, who, for one reason or another, are going to require more time. Energy know how resources, then you know that the poor kid making for hours the great candidate and every private schools fighting, and I would also worry that the like second stage political consequences of this are going to be done. Ass. Yet writer, you ve, I'm not really thought this a far out, but you have the advantage that your parents, like you're, sort of like for ammunition what kind of community you're talking about right, but you are taking like middle class people who are not qualifying for these voucher and who, after taxes, and property to EU after basic living expenses. Don't have the money to send their kids to fancy private school in who

are now stuck in public schools that have had their funding straightened out. You are now talking about a really raw deal in which those families are either going want to withdraw into like these? Like fortress suburbs, air, exclusionary zoning means there are no poor. Kids, were you don't have title one money, but Josiana care and you're. Ok, or else they're gonna want their city governments to go further toward dismantling the public school system by cutting property tax steeple. so they now you can afford to go right. You know even right now it's it's a challenging to convince middle class parents that they want to also be part of public school that have poor children and

this like voucher, rising it it. It really like. It ends up the pressure on that system right on the people who do have both political voice, the opportunity exit you're like will now: ok, the poor kids, who behave. Ok, how vouchers and are going to program schools. So now I'm paying taxes so that my kids can be stuck in a school with not just like with poor children, but with of the poor children, the ones who are so badly behaved that the private, won't take them and like that does not seem like at all sustainable to me. Yeah ended us. I mean that it is a formula for as outlined in the way that the public school darted in some places when you're talking about a large elderly population, but like our not by and large draft at the moment, but like again, if you look at, if you look at programmes, this absolutely exists like oh,

idea is pervasive and among, like otherwise liberal people, that it's the middle class parents who save money for college young get screwed ran like absolutely not one hundred percent translate down to the a top level as where you would say. Ok, we got just like rich people going to private school. We have the poorest kids getting these vouchers. Unlike what am I doing here, yeah. I do think it, regardless of whether or not this is an intended consequence, it would absolutely drain support further the public's system as a whole, and then there is also the sort of like programmes for the poor poor programmes. Idea of How long does it eleven thousand dollar rapture really really get maintained I didn't say I mean how would that scale right and if you start in eleven thousand dollar voucher and in twenty years from now, it's still in eleven thousand voucher. Typically, I don't think we're gonna get eleven thousand dollar vouchers. It's an interesting thought ex right, but I mean this is why I think the like we talked earlier about like the evangelical communities like comprehensive vision.

Even though it's not like in this Trump proposal is, I think, relevant to us standing it read that, like some of the political impetus for rent, a lot of the political impetus from badgered is coming from people who don't really want to like find a stable and workable public cigarettes. I think there's a huge disconnect an adventure specifically between, the the politics they the proposals, the politicians are making, who, I think like genuinely believe or help where our kids, like, I think, part does believe that, like poor black hat and walk you're better off with a voucher than they are in the mocking explosives and departed constituents, he White Lake vouchers for themselves and their kids rat and there's only so long that you can say that you ve done it without sort of getting the push back from the people who really deeply are motivate by their. There is support like within the community for

there is in some parts, but like the people who really like true believers and vowed chairs are actually not the people who are included and plant like that's all right. When you mean exactly minutes, it's not pull Ryan's constituents who get the Milwaukee VAT writers the politicians who Betsy Divorce sadly, only regulate about adverse are not well from such occasion. Secretary Betsy votes pro voucher. That's like really all you need to know about. She supports this year with a lot of money, and, like has really put, I mean she's a big villain and you know, a lot of public education community, but but like cheat she's like she's super rich, and she has put a lot of her into this. This is why I am taking this seriously. I guess it's. Ok! I like Athos. She has a a profound personal commitment to this voucher agenda. Down trump sometimes puts people and cabinet jobs for no reason at all, like Ben Carthage,

but is this like seems like a real thing, without with a real person behind even Betsy Devote, has a shocking lack of like in any kind of interfering with the public school system at any point in any way which liked. I do not think whether or not you send your kids to public school is necessarily the determining factor of whether or not you are good education policy. But that, aside, like she's, not an insane pack, for, Education, Secretary Russia of the person who is known in the education community Lake, she is certainly more extreme than some of the other people he was considering, who have like rotten states while systems, even if they are generally for about her but lake she's. Someone who it's like ass, not liking, bankers than it had like its education, be whirling, aha, ok, they're, Georgina, easy and its immediate. Logically, a little bit of Like you, I mean there's a lot of different things. The education apartment could do so. Let one thing you could pick is like Arnie Duncan someone who had run a public school system,

the message we are sending is we want to run public school systems better? In theory, you could pick someone from the higher education world. I don't think that's happened in a long time. But there are actually know a lot as surprising number have been more from the higher education world, because, honestly, like having expertise and public schools, have it. If you go back there like twelve education secretaries, their pen, is it like? It was not a pretty. It was at a very high priority for rest, most president of both for driving back, but it means that the visa waiver, like Lamar Alexander, run the university Tennessee for global way, but but Obama Bush or pick people from from from kiddo anyway. Betty divorce has not been a state education. Commissioner, has not been a public school chancellor, but does not even like she was not a behind the scenes. Policy person like Margaret spoke

what is lacking, but she is very involved in the education issue. Yes, but what she is involved in is the idea that we should not be trying to run public schools better, but that we should be giving kids money so they can attend School right and shit, she's been protesters goals as well, but in a way that, like tartar school advocates, are very alarmed by because it is like Tartarus goals. Without limits were, it is charged with without any kind of accountability. So she is a she's she's, not been carcinogens, like you, but it's like a early extreme ideological vision, rather than a practical, like a manager of the existing system, she's she's a funder and sort of visionary and operative in this, like conservative, like we need to remake what what the, what religions system, and I mean I think it's worth it was worth just quickly saying that lake,

while. This is not an uncommon view on the right. This is not something that has been in power at the federal level for a long time like I really was not familiar with her in its because should we gives about yours has like that is, but a very back burner education question for a very long, every cent storage, and we must try to sort of get it into no child left behind. It didn't work so you're out here we go back to two thousand and one to the last time that, like vouchers, we're talking about this, areas way is like a big issue of education. So what bill couldn't wish? President? Unlike republic, some Republican said, instead of doing whatever Bell cleanse, do fishery vouchers and then Georgia be bushel wine and he was like had the voucher people in his coalition gray, but he wanted to get a big bipartisan build on, so he drew the vouchers and managers, are never like the ultimate goal of his policy vision and he said we're going to focus on standards and can build right, and then we argued about that for a long time ago.

what was actually pretty similar. Yet we argued about standards, accountability, accountability for fifteen years last year, there are like a maybe not so much on the account of every. Unlike here, we are somewhat that's the end history, This is a big shift. You write, a big deal has has overly not just from Obama but from George be Bush, and even By that I mean really we're going pretty far back at the presidential level. You have to go back to re, be where you find somebody who this this policy vision really follows from yeah. So it's a in sort of of. I don't know this, this lot of stuff, where Donald Trump is like an unconventional republic in it, maybe more moderate direction or just seems weird, were there's a lot of things where he seems continuous with Republicans, but this is actually an issue She has position himself into a sort of traverse shore, but Very logically, orthodox, like back to the origins of new right,

patient thinking I mean Mitt Romney did not have this weird. The states are also going to do it because I will, that part of his plan but exaggerating title one was his education ports. While this is like bog standard right but budgets, but its blogs standard on Sarah Wretches, the Agatha good Man, yeah, but it may mean it's it's unusual having its own, whom we don't normally think of Donald Trump, as I bring the Republican Party back to its pure conservative video, logical vision right, but that's really. What he's done here So you know one thing that you would think you know with it with. I got a standard president who unveils a lake sort of fairly drastic overhaul. The major portion of american public z. You wouldn't say what: how could he profit from this purse and yet wouldn't trump. I do feel like you have to ask with everything like what's: what's that

go here because, among other things, he owns a sprawling business empire, which he I think he promised on Twitter recently that he was totally separating himself from Hey Press conference with his children, so like three gases, what his plan to totally separate himself from it is what the explicit trump has said throughout the campaign that, rather than put his businesses into a blind trust, and because I actually really know the meaning of the word by interested Maurice Allais, I'm just gonna like state exactly what it is we have basically, like you, sell all of your investments. You put that money into lakes thing that you don't know what it is, its blind, its boy. and someone else who is not like your child is in charge. Overseeing your financial interests and the way they would like any other client. So you, if you had like Obama's, I think, is the easiest with understood has. He saw all the stock. He put it, I believe, into an ex find index, went and Treasury buttons, so like two things that, whenever he did, it would affect

for follow in some way, but he did not know exactly how I trumpets decided. His version of this will be putting his children and charge of his businesses so which is not that that is not That is another thing year in, and I mean to to be clear if you want to try to give trump some credit, which I don't really think you should do if you think about the conflict of interest. From the other perspective right, if you were a business partner of Donald trumps, and you heard he was going to take on a side gig as president of the Eu states, you might reasonably be worried that this was lying to me in that, like he was gonna, be taking his eye off the ball. In terms of management of the enterprise. That's just something he might say to reassure you is:

No dad Junior, Eric and vodka have been very involved in this business over the years. I'm gonna take myself out of the loop, so it's not like there like, arguing with rents previous about when they can get a meeting with me here. They are going to have full decision making authority they're going to do a good job right. So if your instinct is to put your business interests verses his bit like that, actually makes total that fly. It is also to also be fairly it is harder to sell his business empire that has Redford Obama to be like sell my stocks by others ideas, but I mean it just he's. Taking a solution to the problem of CO investors and creditor yes and things like that in his businesses and he's selling it as a solution to the american people. But it's like the there. Concern would not be that Donald Trump is too distracted.

Ray, is actually really revelatory that, like that, is apparently the frame, and which is thinking about that. It's that he will be self deal right aspires given that his kids are apparently going extremely involved, and his administration, like it's not Leah Blind trust anyway, because, like presumably, he will still understand how its business works and in what is going on with it, but like if the people running at the people who are like popping in and out of the oval office like that is. That is not a meeting wait. A minute trump is interviewing cabin secretaries, Jerry, probably can't get out. Governments salary. But can you get a security? Clear so we can be an informal they're moving to the sea which this thing they like that the rumour and probably didn't actually have any reason to back this up at length. What everybody sort if that was the DE vodka is clear the child. He, like trust the most, was going to be the one in charge of the business and not really do anything for rally instead she's moving today, So like a meetings without glare literally

you're all she has in the business if he does not say that press conference like a vodka will be strongly focused on my administration, like that is already a mass of conflict of interest, and I mean to be obvious about it. If one of the big things you business does is licence the name trump, There's no, there is no sense in which anything could possibly be blind right, I'm going for it. line comes up and it's like ok, so and so real estate company. has made an agreement to build like the Trump Tower Baku yeah. You know that they paid the Trump Organization money for it right and if he were If you do not do that, I mean it would not be. It would still be difficult, given the familiar relationships with their might actually be like a veneer of plausible deniability like. If your name is literally on your building, there is really no way around it, and so we ve already started to see some

should I have seen so I would not have been so many shenanigans. The hotel in D C, which just open the old post office, pavilion trumpet now term international, Hell is really sort of the heart of them in one sort of the easiest to understand, because it sort of demonstrates all of the ways in which this could be it So, on the one hand, the hotels like aggressively promoting itself to diplomats as lake and as one of them said like Why wouldn't I stay there? When I could go to the present day? I stated your hotel last night, sir. It was very nice, which was then, I think, a political power and Washington Post story. So there's that there is the lake side angle of this of lake there are governments, the kingdom of Bahrain is holding its forty fifth anniversary ceremony of something there. Bahrain is a country that has good reason to want to be in the good graces, the United States, since we are still denying and funding to crack down on internal. Does it so very thoroughly. Agree, always that that can be used to sort of by influence in then there

the sort of second concern, which is the trumpet uses office to make exist Problems go away for his businesses or open up new business opportunities and hey. He is appointing the head of the General Services administration, which is the government agency that oversee the on the old post office, pavilion backward hotel, but also like He has a hotel in LAS Vegas that has an outstanding labour disputes one has actually been settled. I think it was settled right before election day. I just discovered that yesterday, by But there will be more like that. Like you, there was a labour dispute over whether one of his his hotel in LAS Vegas Convenient, Is it went beyond our bee? I believe it went to the full and our be, but it may have just been at regional one, in which case it means it. So where is still in the pipeline regardless, like he will be appointing people who make decisions on individual cases that could very well end up being consequential to his business. You actually could include the Supreme Court in that, if you want to do as well right and he, in the real estate business. You you get along cigarettes, are you do things

and the banks are also regulated alive. So Deutsche Bank is his biggest creditor They were also in the midst of negotiating a fine with the Justice Department for breaking some kind of law, it is a large fine. It is like a five billion dollar after the election. They broke off talks because they are anticipating a better deal from the next president and I think than President could anticipate a better deal on his next loan. You have. The Bank of China is the biggest individual least holder within trumped how're in New York. I there are just all kinds, and these are the ones who know about. I think, as it is worth like saying over and over and over again, like that, this is in a world where we have not seen his tax returns. We do not know where all of his debts are just the ones we know it. pretty horrifying, and there is that there is. This total possibility that their things much worse than this, that he is not yet made us aware way, because we really know I mean some.

Things we know Trump owns because he's name them after himself or because he, like shows up. There is like hey, I own, this amazing Gulf Courtrai, but that doesn't like. Obviously he owns Trump Tower, that's a secret, but we don't really know what assets these companies whole right right. Is there not so I mean that we don't know where all income comes from like there are many things we don't know right to cause he's fine old of financial disclosure form, as you do and the way these things work is used to bus right down. What stuff you own and an estimated its worth and the we normally people. Do it so, like Joe Biden says like ok, I have whatever Vanguard find. I have these bonds. My wife has some pension thing from yet ever Whitley unstuck it we want a little side. Rapidly is what trumps disclosure, just as it is list of the names of

well see that he owns and you sort of based on their name, make inferences about what they are like. One is called trump marks. Cutter, probably that is a holding company that licences, the name Donald Trump to properties in cutter its down, is having a low value. There aren't big trump properties in cutter. It's probably just a company they set up for a deal that didn't happen. Yeah you can call anything. Anything is a algorithmic hedge fund, that's name Jane Street Capital and it's not locate Jane. I think I think it was once but like you, you can your company when every one way that it has nothing to do with what is so like there could be a company that owns. I don't know what you know could own a coal mine and it could be called Trump airline side right now and we don T John disclosure forms, don't pierce that veil to say will what does the seal right?

it's just that it's just the last in a village where it's easy to be growing, inferences tooth. There's this list of companies were trumpets doing business in one of them is Israel and apparently, but what this was actually based on was the existence of two all seas that were Lake Trump? Vodka, Israel, our Trump drinks, Israel and jump from energy drinks? Israel? I believe one of them was Trump Vodka, which is out of business, but was, in fact fun fact phenomenally successful in Israel and remains, but has no longer be manufactured ends. can you actually say, he's doing business in that country in a way that lake would influence foreign policy yeah, but it could also very easily go there. Verse like he could have accompanied doing business in Israel that registered as like Trump drinks and art like you just now in, I would say it's it's become clear to me that by part of the play here since not going to resolve this as its Congress.

Republicans, who could try to make him have decided they're not going to that. I think they're gonna be happy about how confusing it. That probably, There will be a hundred allegations levelled at him, and ninety eight of them will be true, and two of them will be on the scale of you put Israel on the map, but really from drawing is real aid defunct years ago and it'll just create loud of like one thing trump likes to talk about a lot is the idea that the media is out to get him, so that, like, if you are a trump, lawyer, lest you should be in the mines. Sad that, like the lying unfair press is smearing. Donald Trump and I'm gonna see some stories. They get this wrong because we're left to sort again, if it's like put it like that thing about blaming the elephant right. That's really. The situation where, in here, right

and so it's gonna be. If you were inclined to be sceptical of you're going to say we don't really know what's going on like this a disaster, but one thing was a great example of that. Actually, the phone call the phone call to Taiwan that may have avoided you shine of all see. There was a narrative that night that the Trump motels were trying to build a hotel in Taiwan. It turns out that lake build who tell it was maybe significant overstatement of what they actually we're doing, which was german up business for the hotel its. But who's to say they weren't trying. You know it's. It's just there's so much uncertainty that it can support either the most charitable so, what we know, interpretation or like the most conspiratorial, and so first the trump here say: oh, it's totally innocent thing of late. They we were recruiting guests from Taiwan, but like who really does and in the traditional view has been like you want to avoid even the here lines of impropriety, so you would say obviously

a and american foreign policy towards China to get a hotel contract because we don't operate a hotel business at all, where Europe, actually the appearance of impropriety hopes that, like as long as foreign companies, foreign countries, believe that by helping trumps business, they could help themselves. Even if that's not even if he is like conducting himself otherwise perfectly ethically and not allowing us to influence him. The immunity, really benefits him, because that's more more diplomats will stay. So tell more you, no more governments that maybe we'll Greece, the rails, Veratrum branded project and so far and I think, was he a version of IE. That makes me smart, different Yes, we saw with the tax is right that it's like well, let's give people want to show up and do average for my business on asked as a way to curry favour that that

shows I'm I'm getting one over on on the public trump. Unlike say, the Clinton her nation, where the waste that can happen is lake. Malaria prevention got some extra money, like the words that could have been is like trumpets way to make a lot of money off of this ambiguity right, but I mean I think that this is like a fastening thing. We're like the fact that the Clinton's, the Clinton to thing set, wound up, hurting them, and one is that these stated goals of their foundation work, humanitarian nature. So any thing that ever happened at the couldn't foundation that wasn't humanitarian, like they employed city, Blumenthal right right. We're here clearly. a favour to a family, forever humanitarian towards an eleventh black, but he was a favorite, your family friends that council strike against them, whereas a family friend on the Trump Organization pay world. Just as that is this, then. The other thing is that they said that it wasn't an influence peddling operation,

any time they did a meeting with the donor right. It's a scandal, but Trump is very cheeky. He says he's greedy and he's trying to rip people off and that he's a smart business. Man so of people are putting money directly in his pocket to try to bribe him. That just goes to show how awesome he is and like I could write a column about like some of the things. Trump does don't help sick people in Africa, but like of course, the right right, and that is like I don't know if I was Hillary Clinton. This is the part where I would want to shoot myself, but it's like by not having any standards. No, it's only two. It's that, like the vivid to sort of different those are like a be actual. Does it you can see a version of the wealth. If you know they're trying to buy invalids and transit selling out like what does matter like matters, the term aid, the trumpet still getting rich hugely. I read a and B linked he's. Also the president now

but we should not be sitting here debating, like, like infirm, has an opportunity to like be greedy, himself and also make an ok deal for the United States of America like as that, fine right now? That's not fine words. Mean- and ultimately I mean this- is where the transition phase is weird, be asked he's not president, so pleasant really really anything right and also it things are like. Ok in America, it's. What are you gonna, be blamed for I mean it's weird, because he campaigned on my how horrible everything else like actually things are ok the problem for him I mean the problem for the car, three. Is that, like even small mistakes? ambiguity, is, can create bad outcome. Yeah right I mean we will have to see right it for years into this. If the economy keeps adding a hundred ninety thousand jobs per month, we

Can you do not have a war would time? You know, and you know I think, like good government types are gonna, be like furiously typing these Ngos, who belong care, but I mean you tradition, We don't try to run the government of major country as a servant, shakedown operation because actual bad things can happen if you're not like minding the store, curly and four in foreign policy. I feel like in foreign policy as well conflicts there, the worst and also the hardest understand as lake. If you are not a foreign policy exe like why our allies being are a quart of what allies being able to like. Also by a little bit of influence with us is a bad idea is not immediately apparent, and then you started like dig down into the details of these relationships in a way that the average person does not, and it becomes very obvious, sway the complex our great budget was again. No, nobody cares selling, nobody will sell it. Does we note you people carrying her goes wrong to be honest, nobody me with foreign policy is like nobody cares about farm policy until something terrible have hit me and then suddenly, you care a lot allied right.

me. That's like the nexus of this, where I dont think that like media takes you get like to smart about it. Right, like, I think, the Obama strange and most recent ministrations has meant a fair amount of time trying to like be friendly with India and Pakistan, but in a way that doesn't give either side reason to believe we would back them in a war at so as to discourage them from having a giant war in which hundreds of millions of people die meanwhile Trump is like pull high. The president of further call calling the leaders of both countries and say you're great I'll, do anything to help here. So, like that's gate well, and it's like you would not expect, I do not expect voters to care about that, and probably nothing

herbal will happen, but, like small increases in the probability that, like huge disasters, wars will break out, is like really unwise and like not worth pocketing le extra cash. In my opinion, I also stick a flag of the stand for like even further to care about some things. There are still important, so yes, said that flag is down Oh ok, with that great episode, thanks everyone for listening. If you enjoy this this package, which I hope you enjoy it, if you're Lange and you made it this far. Yes and you should tell others to listen as well Subscribe and Itunes shared on Facebook tweet about us. Email us call your mom, you know what what whatever it is. You want to do. My thanks to Libya for joining me. No things at all to Sarah who were useless thanks to panoply to producer from Shapiro, and we will see you next