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What to expect when you’re impeaching


Dara, Jane, and Matt answer your questions on the impeachment inquiry.

Related pieces:

"What’s wrong with a President Pence?" by Jane Coaston, Vox

"9 scenarios for how the Trump-Ukraine impeachment process could end" by Matthew Yglesias, Vox

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Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias), Senior correspondent, Vox

Jane Coaston (@cjane87),  Senior politics reporter, Vox

Dara Lind (@DLind), Immigration reporter, ProPublica

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeah. This is Marquez Brownie Acre and Cuba HD, and this is Andrew, Manga Nellie. We will introduce you to our podcast way, form the nuisance, into the box media back ass network, so I've spent for ten years reviewing tech products and consumer electronics for millions of people on the income fifty Youtube Channel and now on the way forward ass Andrew and I use that experience to dig even deeper into latest tech for smartphones too. I max to electric cars. So if you're gadget lover orator cat or if you just want to figure out whether the latest gadget is worth your harder in cash. Give us a lesson say: can find waveform empty if they pass on your favorite Pakistan every Friday see over there hello, welcome to observe the weeds. I mean box media had cast them work. I met with glacis joint as usual today by Jane Coastal from Chicago and proper, because derelict
we are going to talk about impeachment, which is the talk of the town we had to solicited questions from from readers, viewers, listeners and said in the box community and what I found was a lot of people who are interested in sort of the nuts and bolts process staff, which has people. Don't you like scoops about how Senate rules work so indeed hasn't really been in the news, so I saw one to start there, I mean one interesting thing about this is that, of course, the present has not been impeached and the house has not taken any votes on anything. It's just a kind of with a with a wave of the hand need suppose he proclaimed that it is now and impeachment inquiry, and if you find that confusing it, it's just is confusing. That's that's just how it works.
like there's: no there's nothing more to it, and then people were interested in the Senate trial and the way this works. If you look back at the clinic impeachment of mention, any aid is that the Senate just makes up the rules as it goes along, and so they had early in the process. These sort of contested votes. Where was, will there be any witnesses at all and Democrats, it moved to have no witnesses to basically like muff the whole trial and just move to a quick load the Republicans. Had a majority says that it would be witnesses, then impeachment enthusiasts wanted like out like a trial like a lawn order, episode with with witnesses understand, and they thought it would turn public opinion. Around Democrats didn't to do that, and the more vulnerable Republicans thought in patron was unpopular and they can wanted to cut short. So they reached this compromise where we MRS did sworn depositions on tape and then excerpts of the tapes were playing by impeachment managers in the Senate, which is just as they like
they can do whatever they want and Mitch. Mcconnell has said that his understanding of the rules is that he would have to hold a trial if the house votes to impeach, but that all he has said they could do literally anything from like the trial of the centre. Three to six men vote, in which you know like Democrats on six December Hudson and it's all over, so The impeachment denouement could be it could be very unimpressive there's this and underline timing questionnaire, which was addressed in a couple of questions. We got through basically lake hat avert. Somebody of how long is it going to take to actual for the house to actually impeach, or why is the house? You know now kind of rushing forward on impeachment after Nancy Pelosi spent so many months saying that they weren't ready to opening
inquiry at and they weren't going to, etc, etc. The Democrats logic has been, or at least in a democratic leadership in the houses, has been that you know that they are they appear, retreating. What has happened or what comes a light about trumps involvement. In Ukraine and his requests in the state departments pressure to get stuck, anti corruption language that may or may not literally be just investigate Hunter Biden as kind of their treating. It is never the smoking gun that there really kind of rushing forward with this they want, and they said that they a vote on impeachment before the end of the year? Which freely is not that much time, given that the thirty October, and also given that
spent so many months with them, not really taking any action on impeachment, so you can see this one of two way is. The democratic leadership appears we believing that if they treat this as a smoking gun that the public will agree and that they just need to like get to impeachment and say we ve impeach, the President, the Senate in out, does it and also in case impeachment, turns out, do not be such a political winner for them they have all of twenty twenty two click state there own agenda, which needs policy has always been very big on lake, not being purely reacted to the president, but also all offering alternative vision. There is a critique that doesn't you'd be breaking down along it, illogical lines except in so far as you know, people in the left to the Democratic Party often find more reasons default, musical Lucy right now, then people in the center swing that that means that this is
that is a squad during prime media real estate, right that there are not that many that, like there are going to be a lot of new cycles in twenty twenty that now we're going to be dominated by things other than the house, hammering impeachment and as somebody who is not, as you know, plugged into the kind of optics of Daily NEWS because, as you like that, Smee as a moderately persuasive argument, but I'd love to know what kind of the the kind of downside risks is of a more protracted impeachment process. Sir Sunday I'm interested in is like, I want him back up a little bit, because I think that there is an idea of how we think about impeachment. That is perhaps slightly inaccurate, so a couple of questions we gotta like why? Impeach him for this, but not for Yemen or for the situation on the border or lying about thousands of different things, and also with the idea of what impeachment is supposed to do
impeachment, though it will involve legal questions, is not real. Like the idea of high crimes and misdemeanours, I think Matt. Maybe we could get into that a little bit, because this is not again. This is not law and order. I wish it were because God, I love law and order, but this is not a political question. Not so much a legal one exists yeah. Some people had had asked about. You know like what laws did from brain prayer Shelley and they are specific and other people who knew better are aware that, like it seems like technically you construe. This whole thing is a violation of campaign, finance law it because it is a crime I to solicit something of value from a foreign entity, for the purposes of your political campaign should be to hang out legal charge on Rudy Giuliani, I guess in particular. I think that might be what you would want to say, but I think
fundamentally, the point is that impeachment is not about law. In that sense, right like if you caught the president like jaywalking across seventeen street, like that? That's illegal, but you obviously wouldn't impeach someone over that. If the Mulder report might have distorted the discourse on this a little bit, because the conclusion of the Miller report on the obstruction of justice stuff was, we didn't think about whether the president could have committed could be prosecuted for a crime, because we have guidance that we can prosecute the president for a crime. There is a political remedy for this and that remedies impeachment. That is, it is simultaneously true that mainstream interpretation of the deal. Jays Authority says that you cannot prosecute the president, because impeach once the only way to remove him and that impeachment is not made it to the violations of the? U S code. In this way, I say immediately that the basic question of impeachment is thee. Agnes tool of the inappropriate, write, em
ability to forge a consensus in Congress about the appropriateness and the thing here, I'm gonna kick back to to Jane with this, but but the keeping here seems to me to be that a number of Republicans are willing to say that they feel this was at least inappropriate right. I mean there's a question as to how far Benson Mitt Romney others will go in their criticisms of these dealings Ukraine but like they are in fact critical of it, which in the Democrats can both all be very critical of it. Also can say it's not a foregone conclusion that Republicans won't turn on him over this, because some of them have what the question is, though, that what what the state we ve gotten even from Mitt Romney, have basically been like this is bad, but it's not an peaceable bad and that seems to be the victim of basic sentiment like among conservatives, blew our Trump linen conservative celebrated. There were three groups. There is
this isn't a legal everyone does this? Everyone should do this. Why are you so mad about and will call that kind of the federalist way? Then there be. This is bad by not unimpeachable. Actually, let's look back Obama kind of thing. If you'd, there is out there, that is from the Tucker Carlsson and his fellow founder of the daily collar a couple of days ago. There is basically like sure trump shouldn't have done this, but really like hasn't. There happen before it's not illegal. It's just unseemly and civil caught at the daily Collar wing, and then there's and the met Romney. This is very concerning I've raised both of my eyebrows and put them down at the same time, kind of response, which is, though this is bad. We would say it's bad. If it were someone else, we should be able to say it's bad one true. That does not necessarily mean that we're getting towards impeachment and set it bad
There has been some reporting from Gabriel Sherman Vanity, Fair, who talked about how this isn't wrongly trying to watch primary Canada see this. Is him trying to see if you can circle at least one or two wagons, to get people on board, perhaps in the Senate, now again we're not sure of the veracity of all that, because occasionally, these are the kinds of things they get reported that are like make get. People see excited nothing happens, which is often what happens in reporting in general, but there are cut of the threat of the trunk. Leaning conservatives, though, seem to be, the three basic wing though, I do want to go back, because I think that you are a couple of people about this question like is it you? Why is this unimpeachable offence, as opposed to one other, potentially impeach, both answers? There have been numerous arguments, sectors, apiece and New Republic about this, like
yeah what we should actually just having impeachment hearing that's about everything from has done and then there's been a response that leg from conservatives. Are you ve been trying to teach him since in operation day, that kind of thing, but then also like has this and before tat you have there been because I think that there's been references to yeah, how the Ukraine was involved in twenty. Sixteen, which is how this whole story goes because we're gonna repeat twenty, sixteen for the rest of our naturalised, so that getting into what actually took place here that we know of and we'll why? is that an of France or perhaps at Arguably unimpeachable events, if you are a must the Democrats who, by the summer Publicans and Congress, wrongly re engagement? I think that the argument that Democrats have been trying to impeach trumps inauguration day is particularly striking, because this is exactly the discourse that Nancy Policy has been trying to avoid
last night right like by taking the house majority and immediately saying instead of impeaching President Trump, which, by the way, can do now? We are just going to engage in vigorous oversight and then for one thing you're, an oversight has really not yielded results. There's been unprecedented stonewalling by the executive branch, the stuff that we found out about hasn't really come from, can grow from Congress making. These very you know. Cely worded these sternly worded letters to the white storyline really, but you know, has in fact come from kind of the whistle blowers within the government and scoops from outside and that kind of thing. But if you argue
you spend months and months and months arguing. Yes, we oppose the president. We think that he's not legitimate, but we also aren't going to impeach him. A lot of people don't hear the second part of that argument, and so I think that is it is. It is both faithfully untrue. The Democrats I've been trying to impeach Trump since migration. If you think of Democrats, is the democratic and actually do the IMF Jane and a reflection of, I think how reared the house strategy on this has been. But I think Democrats need to rethink what about right, because essentially was going on. Is politics right I mean, gets come in and its true, like some members, were like hot to trot with impeaching Trump and and the more vulnerable members were not because it didn't pull and then leadership whose job is to build consensus in the Caucasus and protect the vulnerable members said they were against impeachment. Like there is a group of cranky pundits on twitter who ought to be found
like their mission in life, is to just take whatever it is. Democrats are doing and say it's wrong, so like a hundred percent of the people who were complaining They were impeaching that they warrant impeaching tromp, where the people whose six months earlier had been complaining. The Democrats we're talking too much about Russia, the union and their like now that policy got on board with impeachment, because a politics change, it's like. Oh, no, I'm gonna incentives, saying like thank you Nancy Policy for doing I've been saying you should be doing it's like no, no, no now you're, impeaching Trump Raw can only mean, and it's like it's it's tedious. Like I completely respect, and understand the view that the public policy convictions
Moderate Democrats are mistaken and it would be better to instead have more left wing views but like it would be healthier to just say that, rather than like continually just taking the opposite side of every technical question and so like the baseline, his in the Democrats are pressing forward with the Ukraine focus. Is that the pulling on it is pretty good? It's not great, I should say I mean it's. It's done great in the sense that lots of people who otherwise love Donald Trump seem outraged by this Ukraine thing, but its reasonably unifying like for it used to be Trump was unpopular, but impeach room was also unpopular now, Trump is unpopular and the p
who dont like Trump seem to want to have this impeachment inquiry. So I that that's why Democrats are doing it, but, but the only thing I would say is that, like, I think they need to guide themselves by the politics now right and like going back over stuff. It's already been hashed out seems like a bad idea, but like opening the door on new stuff that hasn't really meant hashed up before saying it's like part of the impeachment inquiry because, like the present for Ukraine, mentions two trump that he's staying at his hotel. So that strikes me as like. A valid pretext so I go digging around in general Trump hotel type antics or for that matter. You know if, if, after after from Say, on television last week, Ito China. If you would like to investigate Joe Biden Lake in the middle of trade talks, what is going on there that there are definitely some other avenues that if you wanted to build a pattern in practice of you
being foreign relations for personal and domestic gain? You could do that. A minimum like ask Robert Light Heizer to come down and say: has the president ever suggested to you that You don't like. Maybe the answer is no right like legitimately, like part of oversight. Is that, like sometimes Zizi branch has not done anything wrong and in some ways it might be healthy to like throws accusations like that out there that the trouble administration might want to respond to because it, another stonewalling everything right but look carefully as we speak, the ambassadors Ukraine is. It professes to be very, very sad that he cannot testify before Congress did. I think it is both a valid question as to whether the U S Trade Representative Office has ever been instructed to put Hunter by into? U S, China, trade talks and has a very plausible that they haven't been right there like they can just their under oath and we'll get that never happen and we like. But what did you think of the President's tweet
Like I don't really know man the President tweet staff and like there would be healthy for the country right rather than like Democrats, ask for a damning information than the white has doesn't turn it over and then Democrats previously, the stonewalling have been so successful because leadership had been so afraid of doing impeachment right that they had no escalation options. And now that's that's changed, and am you know I? I think I think leadership, though, needs to needs to consider in it in an environment where they now look like they do want it. impeachment. How does that change their tactical approach to all kinds of other things? from back in an era when they wouldn't have faced pressure from their base to do impeachment, but that they didn't want to do the bishops. take a break, but I do want to know more about what this escalation stuff is gazettes. Definitely we got a ton of questions about lake if they contain.
To stonewall. What can the Congress do- and I dont know these things, but I gather that other people in this five glassdale we live with a lot of noise between the pay. The dings, the emails labelled urgent. That aren't really that urgent, it's hard to cut through the static zero. When on the things that really matter just like, we can train our bodies to be better running faster. Have you, we could train our minds to stay focused. Do all the noise we live with step. One download head space, hits bases and have loaded with guide. You meditations designed offer a daily doses, Mindfulness concessions for every situation like a three minute s away meditation when you're overwhelmed by the day and even meditations. You could do it. You, kids, when you're all of run by the day had space has been like a really cool. to have during these sort of difficult pandemic in quarantine can at times has been hard. Sometimes till I get a little time. Yourself. A little space for yourself- and this is a great way to Creates- just like a little like isolation around
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those three hours to all the productive time we miss out on thanks to at home, distractions, disorganization fatigue. It's no wonder the days future work should work with clear up, it does look up, is a flexible productivity platform, the wings or you work at one place. That's all you chats apps docks and ass. One centralized like mission control companies like Goober and Google use click up to make their days more productive, managed projects, people and goals more effectively. Four teams of all sizes industries cook up to pleasingly features at one thousand plus integrations must have, or anyone wanting to track manage intact They worked in one place, you're, always back with clear up trade free today, click up a dot com, slash weeds, so something I want to get at you. I think one. Let's talk about escalation, but too. I think how much of impeachment is actually about, like a public relations question
and it's it's been interesting, because people are talking of mean the only instances of impeachment that anyone in living memory can think about. Unless there is someone out there with Andrew Johnson personal experience, which, if you have an experience, please email us, but there are few people Watergate and the Clinton hearings are. It were entirely dependent on how our voters and viewers saw those trials, and so I think the basic and seeds of whites were focused on Ukraine and not on YO yo. or the border or the other, but a host of other issues in the evening, sturdy. Talking about Syria that you can hypothetical impeach the president for that. This is a pretty easy story line if you can keep it contained to explain and about thirty seconds carried the elevator pitch. But I am interested because seeing right now, Trump tweeting, as we speak about how the kangaroo
port and so he's not going to permit this ambassador or the government is not going to permit this investor to testify. And yet we ve heard about kind of subpoenas, and this idea what you're holding Giuliani and contempt, because you won't testified peoples, it boy you're, sending messages and comics its funds, which relations that really under the states, the seriousness with which many people are taking us I'd, be entered young Matt. If you can't talk is through what exactly can Congress do if the truck administration is like does that gun? I think Democrats are thinking about this. The wrong way right, but so so technically like what can happen the way. I think Democrats want this to go. Is they make these requests Trump stone walls that makes him look guilty? and also right in the maddest Sony in framework there shouldn't be republican Party centres who are Senate veterans, who, at this point there
I've are clearly not gonna become president of the United States. You know just guys like kickin around their right. You know it s, there always are, and these Senate old timer should be up, sat at the diminution of the powers of Congress as an institution causes them to start turning on tromp right queen problems with him, an escalating the pressure on him to cooperate with Congress, and the fact is, is it like? Congress doesn't work like that any more and it hasn't work like that for while Watergate and not only like the real facts of Watergate, but like literally the movie made about Watergate, is influential and american political culture right but like like that movie is a fiction illustration of a book which itself is not like a totally honest depiction of what happened in a completely different
period in american politics, and I think it would be useful for Democrats to think less about how a corrupt president was reigned in nineteen. Seventy three and more about how corrupt leaders were forced from office in which, in the past ten years in South Korea, in Spain in Romania. In all of these cases, what was required was mass protest in this story, that's the escalation from ordinary politics to extraordinary politics. Abc Nancy Posey can't snap her fingers like cause mass mobilization to exist, but leaders, particularly because leaders talk to Union leaders you know environment.
the group leaders, major donors. They talk to the media. They have ways of communicating what kinds of things they want to see: em all kinds of things they they don't want to. And we're so far from from that Paul right leg. There was an axiom article recently saying that the prospects for the? U S, embassy, a agreement were actually looking better thanks to impeachment. I don't know if this is true or not is sometimes hard to tell, but these blind items about what they were saying is that like policy wants to show oh, that Congress can still get things done despite impeachment, so that's leaning on her even more to like want to go put this forward, and I dont know if that's true or not, but what's clearly true, is that we are not seeing the opposite right. She isn't sang Look if you can refuse to engage with completely legally valid congressional requests, there's no way We can move forward on this right. That would be like a small way of pressure, a big away, oppressed
this guy, the ambassador to EU right. He also owns a chain of luxury hotels, mostly in the Pacific Northwest, unlike I don't know right, like the mayor of Seattle, could send the health inspector into the kitchens and all his hotels, and he could Oh you're just hassling me because you're, my political enemy and the mayor, Seattle could say: yeah fuck you right leg yet No, no, I'm just very, very interesting. In an hour in in retail, adaptation and your very, very interested in reading out corruption and, frankly, there's more than one mayors like the mayor of Seattle could say: fuck you, the Mayer Report could pretend it's about something else. There could be a crime, you could get an egg thrown on your face. If we were walking out of one of these guys hotels, you know I do here's the we to escalate anyway, is that you escalate in, like mass politics, are not like inside
the four walls of the United States Capital and in twenty seventeen Democrats clear. We had no power on capital hell. This is what they did ride. So I think they like don't know how it works. They have decided that that's too risky and they don't want to go the re emanating that part of it is that it looks like Democrats have sorted themselves into the party of order. Muppets rightly they have decided that being a party that cares about norms and governance, at least elected Democrats is very important to their brand as a party. The other part of it, though, is that, like, when you're talking about you, eggs, getting droning people's faces There is definitely a belief among you know the conventional DC democratic type of person that mass illustration is politically polarizing right that people who are currently softly in favour of impeach. and don't really like what Trump is doing will be
motivated to support trump, if they see lots and lots of people out in the streets against him, especially if those people are doing anything more confrontational than holding science, and I don't with it. We ve seen that that is true when I dont know that you know how sensitive to the gravity of the wrong it is, but the idea that elected Democrats would be in league with people who are playing the court. Unquote outside game goes two thousand and seventeen Ssi, and I think two thousand and seventeen has been a little bit. Memory hold Franklin, two thousand and nineteen. Now that Democrats actually have the house. It goes against AJ racial of how democratic party insiders think governance is supposed to work. Now. I think that it's weird, because a man to man I'm in two minds on this question, because I think that yes, there would be kind of the response. It's from Euro from the air and sea and from conservative media like,
these democratic, like we're, trying to get real stuff done, which no they're not trying to get real stuff done. It's not as if Congress suspended bastion of productivity over the last two years, because everything you what a besides judges, nothing has really gotten through the Senate. Despite the house's efforts to do things, but also we ve seen this kind of specialization and some media outlets. I'd like your own, coming together or the end of divisiveness, which the idea that, like the divisiveness, is the worst thing that could possibly happen in those countries. Stupid now say that here and now how I do think that so much of this question rely as on Democrats in some way appearing to be above the fray above throwing or the hypothetical and is trying to think of like how desperate somehow get spun to involve Antigua and this entire. I didn't like you every day, people sure there,
concerned and waggling their eyebrows about what Trump has done, but they're? U but people You order more than anything else again. I would be interested to see some research or pulling on how What how true that is, but I do think that, especially in DC the idea, it's it's a confrontational issue on the one hand, you're getting based Democrats and people on the left, saying leg. Fact these people We need to get this guy out. What he is doing is wrong and if we look bad while doing at well so what but then I do think that there are Oh, you are representing districts that very much more like we say, you and to during the men terms, because we're YO Suburban Conservative, leading districts, you're still elected Democrat. like abigails, bamberger and others, because they ethically, where leg we're not
to get involved in whenever Trump is doing. All we are trying to do is really focused on our districts. Want at our districts. Are you there, not trump fans but they're, not super big fan of the eye. The idea of Democrats, not Democrat specific, not like the way I, like my representative, but then went Democrats when you say word somehow it turns into just referencing. Alexander Yokels, YO, Cortez or some sort of like people who leaned further lessened somebody's districts are think that they would like to go, and so I do think that there is a kind of this your intention. I'm not really sure me. I am very glad that I am not a congressional democratic is I don't know how you address that there is something to be said for the fact that we are focusing so much on congressional democrats in their strategy in the impeachment phase, rather than the thing that's actually the open question, which is the impeachment appears to be a foregone conclusion at this point. You know
there he will actually get convicted in the Senate is than Lake is appears. You probably very people would bet on that outcome. But we did get a lot of questions like how could a pro impeachment citizen move Mitch? Mcconnell, like what is the world in which mature economies, mind, changes, and that's a very good question to which we do not have the answer. I think a lot of them. and that is important to focus on Democrats in this phase. Isn't just because, like a lot of DC, has adopted the mindset that focus on Democrats was they're, the ones who can be expected to be rational act although I think that that is the underlying assumption that drives a lot of country, but also that how impeachment gets done sets the Senate, try gray, and so there really we genuinely dont know what the politics of this are. Gonna look like coming out of impeachment. That is something that Democrats, what
They like it or not, have a certain amount of control over. I would say, though, read in terms of Republicans a, I think, a constructive thing, for you know, people who live in these states to do, and also for Homestake journalists in particular, who dared to ask these people. Questions is to ask leave their basically threes Republicans Susan Collins, Corey Gardener and Martha mix Alley who are ads. Serious risk of losing we'll action bids in TWAIN. Twenty gardener, in particular, is like very, very, very serious risk they have, asked in two different ways like what they think about this phone CALL Collins indicated that she thinks it's bad has not like gone beyond that Sallying gardener have successfully like hidden in in mysterious bunkers and not addressed us, but it would be good to hear what they have to say.
You bring pressure to bear on them about some of these process. Question right because, like this is the basic that, if you are in that position, if you are Corey Garden, Red he's trying to walk the difficult line of Swing state senator. He needs to show voters in Colorado. The median Colorado voter is not a trump than he needs to do something to show independence from trumpet nor poem party, he also, though he doesn't want to end up on the other side of the kind of tweets trump Mitt Romney, Mitt Romney is like a mormon political superstar who can who can handle had high in Utah, no matter what gardeners not like that the key needs, regular Republicans in Colorado too, to like him, but liking easy way for him to get some distance is to say, look the press and says he did nothing wrong. So I think we should hear from Ambassador somnolent right, because I
tromp gonna say about that leg know: you're betraying my effort if the cover up right like- and that is like it matters a lot but republican say because a big part of the way Publicopinion works right is it if Democrats are unified on a topic and Republicans are divided that sends a strong in all to voters who are not that attentive or voters who don't like partisan politics, that for. Mentally the Democrats are asking for something reasonable right, end like kind of leezie heuristic, like it matters a lot. So even if I were only talking about a tiny handful, Republicans, if it goes from just Mitt Romney, is complaining about the phone call to like two or three reports Hence our saying, let's put out this stuff, let's let the people testify public Then that brings a lot of pressure to bear on Mitch. Mcconnell, because just
like how policy let a handful of blue dog sort of like wag. The dog is the same thing from economy like he needs to think about his caucuses interest, and the interests of that caucus is disproportionately driven by the small number of honourable members. Is this a good time to ask Jane to just talk? bout like the role of make pens- is something that kind of in a fact based how what did make pence no one. When did he know it manner, came up and a lot of these questions, but I think there is also the deeper question of lake and Jane you wrote about this. I think Nero articles just came out. Why isn't impeach the President get President Pence? Instead, more of an like a rallying, I among conservative elites- and why isn't? Why isn't that a very easy escape hatch for the worries gardener of the world who are
concerned a beta who might want to show both loyalty to the Republican Party and an independence from President Trump. Well, I think that I mean there are some within a kind of Conservative away world who are like this would all be so much easier if all way to deal with was no wait. I think that there is Jim PATH, a cook as have the American Enterprise Institute, who sent you described and best, there's no drama pants, and I think that there is this idea, especially outside of conservative circles, that you. What do you get with Trump that you wouldn't get with pence I've, constant Constance, nonstop chaos and bananas, pudding insanity? However, I think that that ignores for a lot of people, the point of why they voted for Trump and not forsake. TED crews or Carly Florina, or virtually any other conservative now granted if you'd like twenty six day. A lot of that is because they are
Rubio and Bush, everybody aimed all their fire at each other and kind of like Trump escaped through for a really long time. But I think that there is also, this idea created in during the cabin our hearings and through other instances that you, if pants, had been in charge haven't, I was domination Supreme Court Pence will pull the nomination this first time that any sort of controversy eked out I mean did. He probably would have nominated unbecoming Conny Bear to begin with, but we'll whatever, but I think that there is also, as I do, that Penzance was brought on the ticket to basically make evangelical Christians happy and pretty much like is the kind of Social conservative ash you're. The man from the other welcome is their view with this potential administration. But voters really wanted Trump. They didn't care that he wasn't young. According quote establishment conservative that Europe they wanted Trump and I spoke with Josh Hammer whose daily Water wire, who basically sent you from a traditional
regular national of you, ask three three legged store of conservatism. Perspective pence is definitely more cause for conservative, but it you don't need you. I think that there is a view on the right that Europe the clause or conservative right now. You need a brawler. You need a bulwark against the dangers of the excesses of the left and you're, not gonna get that with my parents, especially because, if you harking back to before this administrate and again you will make pens was governor of Indiana. I think there's a view that, on the religious freedom, restoration ACT that the state of Indiana attempted to pass, the second that companies like sales, worse and apple. We're like we don't think you should do this. There is a view that depends gubernatorial most, Basically, we like, we won't do this, then I think that there are lot of conservatives who are like we did. We don't care about the advancement of conservatism we I firmly that we are in danger and we are at risk because of the last or Democrats or Nancy Close,
drag queen story, our something and that the person who is best able to fight back now to be over three as hematoma you at the best able to encapsulate the mentality that refuses to be subdued and easily swept away, is Donald Trump enough. Patsy, I talked to a group of people who are basically like pencils, never said anything interesting he's like he does. We need him, he's just basically there to be vice presidents and not really say things we didn't want him to be present assignments in your peace that I dont think, like normal liberals understand that conservatives very far we believe both that Brett Cavenaugh was framed, and also that might pence would not have stood up for him linked to that religious freedom. Restoration. I think I feel most liberals, I know, have I kind of like moved on from the Hall Cavanaugh Thing, but both for like Red State Democrats who lost narrow, Senate races and twenty.
team, they are convinced that the mass protests against Cavanaugh like or reason that they lost an of conservatives are convinced that this Cavanaugh it shows that, like the left, is an optimum level, and so, if Trump like fights a little dirty like that's, exists, what you need. Then me, why have millions of people like people who I know socially, who are gotta know. Ma am a bit like and see what I like seminar kind of event, that was for a lot of people involved in the fight and how they see other things both like the idea of and you bring the resistance in the streets back east that moderate Democrats worry about because they think it stampeded them into taking harder line against Cavanaugh than their personally comforter wealth, and also the right sees it as this like
psych horrible outcome that, like you, you need a Donald Trump, but whatever it is, they think Donald Trump does it's that he like fights back against. That would actually Is that what you're saying earlier about that? The fear of mass politics? Is it's not it's you both have you know the Red State Democrats, you say thee the mass mobilizations and the optics of that made it very hard good for you, it made it easier for people to turn out against me because they felt a good man was being smeared and the fact that on the right, there's been this apocalyptic. Stir in rhetoric for the last several years. The veto were just we're in an existential battle. We Democrats keep pushing this. We're gonna have a new civil war. That kind of thing that has resulted in the kind of mass political. mobilizations that we ve seen from Democrats, but the carries the flavour of you know it
It is as scared, I think, a lot of elite liberals and stonily conservatives into believing that large swathes of the country that are gonna turn out in the streets with guns. If anything bad happen, I guess if you think I just want to say too, like Democrats, Alzheimer's, just like factually speaking, there is no evidence for the Cavenaugh backlash thesis and that, like studies, there are good stuff is that look at tea party rallies and they use rain as an instrument to show like locality. with our bigger rallies. I remember Democrats at the time of the tea party rallies. They were sure or of there's gonna, be a backlash against us. Like it so crazy, but like that's not true your best new if you are vulnerable democratic. Twenty ten was that if there was bad weather on major Tea party rally, weekends, you didn't get big rallies. Therefore, you didn't get big press coverage Allie and you did better in the election and it's the same thing for women's marked, stop frightened had bigger turn out. People do better
you see the same studies in foreign countries. Are you seen I saw from Dares twitter feed like, even though Ellie Riots in ninety? Ninety two like, if anything, is going to spark a backlash. It's like people actually like going nuts like steel, things and which I would genuinely not advise anyone. You you're totally skipping away paper that I wanted to. I just look at the evidence that is available to us is that highly visible public protests are a very efficacious political tactics, in democracy. Yes, leg with this is this is Mary pointedly, not an episode about the NBA and China sore. Although you they're like I don't know I did. The point is like its of course, hard right, like people would just call out mass protests all the time if they could totally control them. but like. If there's something that you think it's a big deal that pub people are engaged with. Intellectually, like it's a good idea to try to get them to go, go do stuff and
no hold signs. You know, I think my egg thrown idea was a little extreme, but like way now Y know, they're, not doing anything that would tromp wanted to cut taxes and Democrats staged huge rallies about right. Now, Democrats claim to believe that Trump is subverting the basic structure of american democratic politics and the constitution, which I think is a fairly plausible, it certainly bigger deal in cutting the corporate tax rate. Unlike their throwing these subpoenas around the getting ignored like they should do something, and I guess I also think I think it says something about how you and this goes I have many Hobbes horse, Hobbes horses, whatever my basic boys. Is that, like residential segregation, and how a what we think of the other side, whatever that is as damaging our politics irreparably, because we it when I talked to conservatives and liberals, they both think that the other has this deal.
Billy to assemble people on mass to do whatever it is. They want at the drop of a hat at the drop of a hat and so you're gonna talk to people. The cabinet hearings, basically like the west, is united against us and will come out in the streets and will make up about us an eight year, they could use to anyone. So there's this idea. That Trump is both a stand in for visual conservatives, but that also individual conservative see feel as if they themselves are receiving this backlash against them, and then they see trunk getting the same thing. They recognise that, though we thought the liver they're just like conservatives are lockstep, they're, all united, and if we did everything they come out with their guns, but I'm like nobody. No one has locks step One is united, everyone is, at each other and mad specifically people within their own circle, and it's just an interesting to see. This idea of other as being like. Yet we are due
Things in order to please please a group of people. We do not at all understand our interact with its article on both sides. The political spectrum think about what you do joke about a white paper to acquit paper. If you like, basically anyone listening to this right now, I'm willing to bet that you are you're dealing with stress. Maybe there's kind of it like an overwhelming amount, or maybe it's more like a low, but steady, drumbeat background stress, no matter how you are experiencing stress, it's likely effect mood you energy in so many other areas of your life. You feel, like stress, is starting to take over straining relationships and shorten your temper. It's probably tend to unload and better health. perfect, for that better help is customized online therapy that offers videophone and even live chat sessions which therapists she wrote to see anyone on camera. If you don't want you it's much more affordable than in person therapy, and you could start communicating with a therapist none forty eight hours
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Vanderpool today, twenty one plus and present in Pennsylvania first online, real money, wager only refund Who does none withdrawal side, credit that expires in fourteen days. Restrictions apply, see terms at sports booked out Van dual dotcom. Gambling problem call one eight hundred gambler, so this week's white paper. It is interesting because it something that I think out of people have been asking about and, namely that when people are like, why can't we vote from our phone? Well, it turns out people have been trying to fix whether or not you could vote in congressional local elections River at the federal level from found, and so there is a pilot in West Virginia and the paper is not under the hood, the West Virginia but mobile voting pilot and its from Larry. The founder of the clear about group, add Nimitz Ronnie Founders, EU of boats ink, which was the acts that people used to attempt this voting mechanism and business twenty eighteen votes westwards EL launched the nations first mobile voting pilot for voters and that specific area and people
entered an apple smartphones, you, you could be a alpha. If you weren't authenticated, registered voters, you could perceive mark and submit a secret ballot, a ballot from anywhere in the world, and it was interesting me because they are part of this- has to do with the black Managing these to these particular cloud networks in order to provide security and they were able to do a lot- a basically how this would work in general and you, I think, one of them fascinating things you're the paper kind of goes into the mobile voting process, it basically you. Would you email a form to the county clerk, email or online selected. You get authorized to get this app. You submit this app that you and actually see the relatively straightforward, and I think something that was so that was interesting is that people seem to be
ninety eight percent of the one hundred and forty seven people who completed the one time authentication process submitted their ballot and every submitted ballot was counted and do it said that the authentication process seems pretty straightforward and some years, an interesting pilot programme again we're talking about a hundred and eighty three voters who submitted these forms asking to be able to do this and twenty four participating how did this in one state? So this isn't a kind of girl what we're not quite on the alike. Let's take it to the federal level yet, but it is interesting that this is something that people are already starting to think through, especially as now many states, and I think that united in my home state of Ohio, their pernicious with this in Florida, and Georgia were voting. Machines are one easily Hannibal and too easily breakable. I think it's interesting that how this paper kind of way is out that then there is the better sure for another better way. Maybe I don't think we should be clear about the number of requests,
there were a hundred and eighty three requests from people who were eligible, which, given this pilot, lay given the particular concerns of the state official who was who had ordered. You know who like put up the order for it people in a foreign service and military personnel serving abroad. So there were like there were two hundred requests from people who were Ellador ineligible but still want aid. Bell so presumably these people who like we're in the counties that we're doing it weren't people who are serving abroad like it's think it's an indication actually that there might be brought her interest in a broader pilot than just saying. We really really really want to make it easier for people who are abroad Things be app yeah I mean, you know, voting has become such a fraud question in the United States, red businesslike, particular context of westward Kenya and people being abroad and the option that West Virginians, who are abroad at any given time are like
to be military members right. There seems to be yet having a lot of this right and it's like a super duper republican state, where there's no question If we can win the election anyway, you Know- and it's like, if you open this up- and you were saying like what proof of this is to make it really easy for allied college students and whoever to vote Are you gonna get like a whole radically different country, change? I mean it's part of it, just like basic rottenness of voting in America is that without some kind of census, that, like it's good in principle, for it to be easy for people to vote its and hard to work on voting mechanics in like a sensible way. Because you don't you really don't have that right in a like people on you know, I don't want it.
totally both sides it. But I do think it's true that it's like its accepted practice in the United States that, like shaping the electorate, is part of how you play the game. So everything is is seen through that lends, rather than seeing through the lens of like this is public service deliver gaming that also kind of raises the big. You know tat Jen for me, which is yes. On the one hand, there is an increasing amount of scepticism. Of the current regime of electronic, valid machines and desire for unhook ability? At the same time, one of the problems with the Current regime is the lack of paper trail, which is why you see things, which is why you see a lot of voting reforms designed to produce an automatic paper trail? They make sure that you know is designed to ensure that people know that their vote, was recorded in the right way and wasn't switch post facto? So, while the kind of distributed blockchain technology works, input, detecting external hack ability, it cuts against the kind of issue
efficacy. How do I a voter know that the state government or county government, or whatever counted my the right way and didn't secretly switch, it not tell anybody. Yes, I mean it it struck me when I went to witness a federal election in Germany. How? Much having just a really really large number of pulling places- and he really small number of questions on the ballot and then doing it by paper like how actually easy that that was there, like you, know, big differences in the political systems as like, they basically only had to questions. There was really fast to fill out, but they just like they had it. a polling stations. There was really fast, even though that underlying technology they were using was like comical, like literally they D bridges like cardboard boxes, that people were were dropping his paper and but it was, it was awfully nice add which, what the
other elements you mentioned, and theirs is frequency of averting days and valid questions, and this is probably a good time to note that if certain states definitely have primaries today. That have not necessarily been super well publicized. So if you are in Washington DC and actually have representation in Congress, etc, etc. You should maybe Sitter checking and making sure the if you're listening to this on Tuesday active rate that you're not all about, You missed an important election I with that I wish we were gonna wrap this up by within gettin crazy frenetic hand signals for from the studio as a very special word, there's going to be an extra weeds with mayor p, booty judge tomorrow, we sat down with him talked about his prescription, drugs plans, interesting interview, and so with that thanks to our sponsors, I'm listening thanks to our producers to forget and the weeds back on Friday, but first we'll be back on Wednesday
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-10.