« The Weeds

Why it’s so hard to move in America

2022-03-08

Dylan Matthews and Jerusalem Demsas are joined by Nick Buttrick (@NickButtrick), a psychologist at Princeton, to talk about interstate mobility in the US (or the lack thereof). They talk about why it is so hard to move; why some of those reasons, Jerusalem argues, are arbitrary; and what an immobile population means for American culture.  

References:

Jerusalem’s article about why it’s so hard to move in America

Nick Buttrick’s research: The cultural dynamics of declining residential mobility

A paper from David Schleicher called Stuck! The Law and Economics of Residential Stagnation  

Research from the Brookings Institution: US migration still at historically low levels

NBER paper: The China Shock: Learning from Labor Market Adjustment to Large Changes in Trade

Hosts:

Dylan Matthews (@dylanmatt), senior correspondent, Vox

Jerusalem Demsas (@jerusalemdemsas), policy reporter, Vox

Credits:

Sofi LaLonde, producer and engineer

Libby Nelson, editorial adviser

Amber Hall, deputy editorial director of talk podcasts

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
hello and welcome to another epidemic, the weeds, I'm your hosting mathewson. Today I am joined by vocs policy, writer, Jerusalem, dumpsters, hello, love and Nicholas. Track whose a psychologist, who will be joining the university Wisconsin Madison as a professor. This fall welcome neck thanks, I'm glad to be here so we're gonna be talking all about residential mobility today inside the United States who moves why they move why people are moving less speaking, people moving. This is Jerusalem's last last episode, she's leaving Us Fur De Oceana climbs of the Atlantic, and we will miss her terribly, but we want to go out with an episode on one of her deep passions wishes billowy cities how to get
People where they're going to flourish the most and a lot of next week and work really touches on that, and so will you be thought would be ideal to bring him in on the conversation so some takeaway yeah, he's gonna, be my my hobby horse, my swan song, so, let's just I've into it. So the big overarching trend that we started noticing, especially economist of the last twenty thirty years, is that Americans are moving less than ever and there also significantly less likely to move from porridge too rich regions on theirs is phenomenon. Called convergence has happened between states for a long time where rich states import states kind of converge to each other, and Europe eighty, that sort of grinds to a halt and you know, there's a big Perkins paper annoying seventeen that you know drew my attention to this, which talked about annual movement within the EU. S was stuck in a post war. Low rate of eleven percent annual Billy rates were over twenty percent. During some years, and thank you for these nine can sixties around half of that today. So there's a really
egg problem going on, but bigger still that really drew my attention to this topic area. Is that We are seeing that, after big economic shocks to different places, you know in general right if something happens, you're area and unemployment goes high. Wages are declining on people tend to try to move somewhere where the economy is doing better, but what economy started noticing, especially David Outdoor, had a big paper on the holding two Michaud notes about the China shock. These people were actually more likely to drop out of labour force or remain unemployed that actually move so anyway. Big background going on end Nick just actually brought this paper talking about the cultural factors that extra so called you factors that kind of play into this and how that plays into this entire change in how America has functioned fur for the past hundreds of years and so Nick Justa. If you can give a kind of like a preview like what what is actually happening here like what we know, stop the decline in inter regional mobility. So I think that, we look at this psychologically. Moving is hard. It's
not easy to move from place to place. You have to completely reason, your entire social life when you go from one part of the world to another, you lose all the. things that identified you in a place all of the social relationships that hide you to a region, you can't really identify yourself as so and so is brother or eat out the person who lived down the road from here from the house but because the people in your new place, don't know any of that, and so you huh to protect yourself as a completely new person, and that takes a lot of work it's really not an easy thing to do, and so one things that we know is that when people move a lot, they get better at this you don't you start to get a lot more Louis as identifying yourself as a person. some sort of inequalities, I'm smarts than I am these fourteen sorts of rules which are legible. Once you move her twice it becomes easier, potentially to move again and again because you don't have
tear yourself away from Europe, in the same kind of way. So as A society starts to slow down its movement into remove less and less. It may be harder and harder for people too? Can you sort of marshal the psychological resources to move again totally and- and I know in your paper- you kind of sight a lot of the research around declining residential mobility. Here. Can you talk a bit about the evidence? We have four that the climb so view essences tracks, mobility, friends fairly well across the last sixty years, and it's pretty. the Gulf that mobility in the United States is dropping as you mentioned, and in the opening, we had a peak in the recent history in the seventies and has been almost direct lie down from them. So in the seventies we had rates of mobility that were around twenty twenty five percent, the population and to that rate overall is down about ten percent. The seems to be happening around the country. It's not
localised her to one region and the Americans. The whole just are moving as much as they were. It's important to note that there's still a lot of people moving in the United States, like we ve seen a massive decline, of course, but we will do actually are still moving, is not the case that we have become an entire nation of home bodies, but this is addressing difference in the past and I want to be we're here that what we're talking about moving are not just talking about, like you know, someone going to college a renewed new job and pack up their stuff for also talking about a pretty traumatic events right, we're talking about you know the grid migration in which our black Americans are fleeing the south for the West, for the north for the MID west as they are fleeing Jim Crow. We're talking about people scraping, really bad economic shocks, to the area, which means a lot of pain, people losing their jobs, gently families breaking up, but it is thing that is pretty amiss, again in a way and its shaped a lot of what America has looked like for a long time. Snickey talk alone
not how America being a nation of movers, has actually affected what american culture has looked like one thing, that's hard to imagine just how much Americans used to move. So if you look back eighteen hundreds in your hand we can tell, because the evidence is a little bit patchy. Thirty forty fifty sixty per cent of people moving in a city that anyone give in your ear. You had things Ike moving day in New York City, which was pretty much an unofficial city holiday, it was the first of May and like everybody, it seemed like the entire city was just like frantically playing apartment. Roulette Americans moved a lot and you had things like the great migration in which, in a really substantial proportion of the african american population, the south laughed and move north and eat More recently, you had things like a white flight from cities to the suburbs. When you have a lot of people, sort of moving on mass,
one part of the country to another and what we think this helps people to do in a sense is it changes the way that they can relate to each other? When you move, you have represent yourself in a certain sort of way, but also access to different set of groups of people. so if you live in the same place that you ve your entire life and repair. Have lived in your grandparents beloved, you have to be a bit more careful. If you make a must, if you hurt But if you some how wrong somebody you have to live with that forever. You can't just and leaving out you have only fifteen people, you can be friends with, and you do something wrong now you only fourteen people, you can be friends with and one lifelong enemy, so you have to be a lot more. Careful of your in group have to be a lot more careful of the people around you and your reputation really matters, and if you of all, others have sorted, swept away and you can start afresh and american culture loves
the travelling salesmen con man who goes from place to place no start afresh and answered of outruns runs. Their demonstrator keeps going right like gives us an archive in our in culture, you can move to a new city and you can functionally become a new person. A lot of your reputation is left behind and it's pretty good but you have to when you get to a new city, your job, not by what you did, but by what you're gonna do, and so we think this support Some areas have entrepreneurial, a vision of the world where your history doesn't matter nearly as much as your future for listening. this entire absence kind of based around this paper that Nick and his co author should a hero. Oh you, she I'm have put outcome. culture, dynamics of declining residential mobility, of kind of one big white paper episode. But one of things you point is that the things that feel right right, like a mobile society, is like more individual, more optimistic, more tolerant and stable society is more secure. Has a strong sense of differences between groups now groups in itself,
super intuitively. But how do you actually know? That's happening like what are? What are you using to figure out? That's actually occurring the things we do is ask people. Have you moved? How do you see the world and We can do things like asked people to define themselves. You give them a series of questions for the prompt. Who are you advice and say I am and use given buncher blanks and those people who have. Done? A lot more moving will tend to say I am and individual you now. I am something about my character. You know I'm smart, I am honest, I'm trustworthy things are all about them specifically raised people who stay put tendency Things like I am a part of a community. I am a sign. I am a brother things that are much more relational answered of binds them to other people. We can also look at places which there's a larger collection of people who have moved to it,
that are full of more mobile people in those places look very different than the places where people tend to be settled for very long period of time. You see differences of structures in more Britain, they mobile areas, things like mega churches, which are very good at getting people bound together into community quickly, but I don't know a whole lot of people's time because as people move, they want be to leave sorts of structures seriously. Is that can enter them and began? Look at the way that people relate to each other in a sort of twigs aims. We can set up in the lab they use. A little community is invalid. Ver people are doing so things like exchanging money for tokens, because If we look at those Communities which are full of people who have More recently that are so full of more movers, I didn't look very different than those societies, and as societies that are more stable, and so you can see
people working more about their reputations in these more stable places, and you can look at those places that are more mobile and that they treat social relations little bit differently. Things like that that day. Worship looks very different in more stable places trick tend to be a little bit hard they get into and a lot harder to leave they become which become a much sort of more intense part of a community that are very tight knit and that ten to require a lot of time and effort to really The apart of grass. worshipping in more mobile areas tends to be a bit more easy entry into exit, yet mega churches, which are really big, I can help you into community really fast, but if you leave them nobody really notices or cares? It's a much more frictionless of interacting with faith. So we can see the ways in which,
billowy allows people to interact with each other differently helps to shape not who they are, but the very communities in which they are, they find themselves embedded and one thing then interesting, as at your paper a while the sitting over peninsula to in the United States, Europe finds this generalise able to countries outside of the. U S, I think we tend to think of the. U S is being exceptional in its mobility and we don't think it necessarily it's been all but heard a track. Mobility trends and other nations should look back in places like Europe, Korea, Japan and we can track how changes in residential mobility have affected the way that citizens of those countries seem to look at the world we find this in all these parts of the industrialized world when we have increasing mobility, People in those societies tentative seem as if live in a more dynamic place, so They are more optimistic Palmer. General there more tolerant of outsiders
similarly when trend, mobility go the other way. When those countries become more static, more stable, we see the reverse, more pessimism, more Phobia optimism about what's coming over the band and this controls for things like gdps. It's not just about the fact that a slowing country might be getting poorer. It seems to be specifically, we think about mobility. So we are going to take a quick break, but we get back we're in a dive into my real hobbyhorse, which is why exactly this might be happening.
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of students in the area are actually essentially calling them? Pollutants on these are individuals who are them more population, more students here and not building more housing, specifically on land, that the Energy company Berkeley owns was a detriment and a burden on the community at large. You know they said about different things, including you know, people in Berkeley dont, like the fact that there are college students who live in their neighborhoods now and that these kids have party than stuff like that. They dont also want to have you no bird
we zone for more dense, multi family housing such that you would actually have an area that could support a growing population anyway. This is an absurd horrible ruling. That's basically leading to not only the three thousand Berkeley students who thought they were gonna be accepted no undergoing there, but also has cascading effects for students to accept the two other uses or other schools who are now going to be either never get off the white lest or have their applications rescinded, or will not be able to have access to their schools on the school, if other we're going to? U, for whatever reason so, Sir, do you think this is good or bad Jerusalem? Argento o is it? I know, I am worried that my opinion is a clear Selby, a little bit harsher anyway. There is my this ties into. What we're talking about here is that you
a bunch different reasons were in a dive into as to why it is that mobility has been declining, but a big one who took part in the show. A lot is about the failure for places that are growing that are economically on dynamic, to expand and allow for new people to live there, and one of those ways are these: only regulations and these land use regulations that exist that limit the supply of housing and, of course, the ways in which that we have allowed law. call winners in these places to basically hoard these lukewarm, of labour markets- and you know berkeley- is one example of that, but there are, there are countless others. When p, talk about psychology of moving demographers, often talk about its multi stage process. You have to want to move. You have to know how to move. You have somewhere to go and you make it a lot harder for people to find new housing I heard about, because people literally can't go where they want so Stricter housing is a really huge problem, just because it fairly restrict
the ability of people to make the jump even when they want to in one of the thing. as we know, is that Americans may still want to move and similar rates, as they did in the seventies, but their ability to actually do it has dropped precipitously one suggest that people about forty five percent less likely to move now when they want to they were generation ago. It's this assembly that Americans want stay where they are, they made them are properly happy where they live I don't have the ability to get where they want to be if you were to the Berlin Housing, it may make it easier for people to actually get where they want. What did I do countervailing excellent, Sir. What what's going on here that America is kind of getting older? I know you'd cod mentioned this idea that you know potentially preferences instead, the steam, but there's some evidence that, like preferences of actually changed because of the aging population, don't we just talk? there's a couple weeks ago with with Brian, but I do think that has to be a big part of what's going on
is largely a thing than by the young. That seems to be a pretty it pretty well established, because it's easier fur to move on their young, they have fewer incumbrances. have to bring a family with you in the same sort of way necessarily and is problem the: U S as well, because moving increasingly expensive and people who are younger have less money. One of the things that we think actually helps to explain the large drop. In mobility over the past forty years is increased. quality and the shredding of the social safety net. You don't think it's necessarily an accident that, as the government stepped back from providing for its citizens see decreases in one most expensive things you can do, which has moved so it may be now that only the old can move, because they are the only ones who have the money? Actually do it when you say that
That means giving more expensive is. Is that a function of of zoning and other things, making the destination more expensive or is the actual like process of hiring move movers transport your stuff? Getting? up in a new place, independent of housing costs going up to. We think it's mostly housing costs. I think that you know I don't have any good data on your, how much the higher mover, but housing costs, obviously arising very, very, very, very fast in place. the catching some other things. But I don't think that's the major the major issue and I think importance of there are there at their other policies, that kind of our inhibiting moving, as well as the captured economy, project at the Scanlon Center at stock about occupational licensing and how that restricts people's ability to move from state to state. So you know a bunch of jobs they write that around twenty five percent of american workers need a state licence, do their job, that's up from ten per
and in nineteen. Seventy on these are people from cosmetology de contractors to liked a very different things and most of the time, these sorts of licensing requirements are an act, under the idea that it is for health and safety, like you need to have a cosmic to his license so that you are actually able to you know you don't have any issues with getting second these establishments or anything like that, but they do find that you know while, under the guise of consumer protection, like very there, are tons of discrepancy that show this like is probably not what is actually going on. Here I mean in most states. They say it takes twelve times longer. To get a licence to cut hair is a cosmetology just then to get a licence to administer lifesaving care as an empty, so that doesn't really seem to be what's emanating here. Some studies show that you're not actually getting your being fear buck in terms of increased safety in places that have more stringent licensing Cedar's, there is really is really. Matters is like. What's your teacher and you have to get a different state exam anytime, you go to a different state like that's a lot of work and effort
time it's annoying at costly, and it reduces your time the you actually have where you are making money, and so, if you're, considering moving from like you know, forty odd to Idaho or whatever it is that is just yet another barrier. To doing that, so I think it's important to think out how many of these regulations are coming because of how each day does differently in terms of licensing on four different jobs, but even beyond, those kinds of things there's also a bunch of things that keep people in play, striped beyond, just like? Oh it's difficult to get somewhere. I want to go there a bunch of things incentivize in you to stay where you are homeownership those things. Commercial rates are generally have been rising over time period were talking about here. You owning a home means that you are likely to want to stay in place because its costly to sell your house, and also your embedded in the community, for a variety of reasons. Elsner tax benefits to it. Right like that, you have four. May the homeowner, and
there also much different things where you know David Schleicher, whose oppressor, who I've started numerous times in the show he has. His paper called stuck the lawn economics of recent ability and He he cites, abolish different things, including public, employ pensions, homeownership, taxable cities, state local tax laws and even basic property law doctrines that incentivize people staying those places, because your basically getting monetary benefits from staying where you are so none of these things entirely new, but they ve piled up and also people have gotten we are able to take advantage of these things much more, and so it's not just that the place like California. New York are making it difficult for you to go there, but also that the placed where you're in right now are making it difficult for you to leave what they are one ask you neck is theirs entities her these profound changes in personality in outlook that result from the mobility, that caused by some of the reasons. Is there a fear? This could be kind of a self perpetuating cycle. Aware, though,
impediments to moving, have created people who are more comfortable, not moving, which even if those impediments were at some point removed could lead to. Can a different attitudes towards packing up and leaving then than had been there before those impediments existed. Yeah. I think that there is peace trusting. This is the case. Moving some centre to learn to behaviour it, something that you have to learn how to do it, because it does take a lot of different step and there's some suggestion that people who have been moved before the age of tea in our lot more likely to move later in life than those who are stable threat. That period and so if you have a society, people that ten. stay where they are? We think that this leads I'm purely procedural staff to people continuing to stay where they are, and it might be exactly that self perpetuating cycle, I think one of things also really interesting. Is you learn how to I think not just from your family, but also from the people who are around you,
If you're in a society which, for example, doesn't let immigrants and young people who have had to moving replace their not surrounded by people who have me to where you are you're, even more likely tat stay put because you ve been have role models in terms of what it looks like to integrating new person to your community or to think about what it means to look beyond the immediate boundaries of the people that you see every day. So if you have a very stable committee within, you can turn stagnant, simply because you just don't know otherwise. one of the things that I noticed too. Is it there's like racial differences in who is actually able to move you Talkin about how it's different for four block? Americans verses white Americans think this partially whose back to economic issues that Black America I haven't had the same ability to acquire wealth in this country than white Americans do two things like red lining and racist covenants and
things like that. So what you often finds in cities is areas of deep government disinvestment. Which are the only places in which black Americans have been able to live for a generation or so so, when you're having to fight against not just not being able to acquire the wealth to move but also being community, is that prevent you from getting basic services, you have to fight essentially neighbourhood tax in order it make it through your day, which thanks a lot harder to think about getting all. Have together in order to make the multi step process that moving requires because movie something that happens in a moment it something have to plan for us and we have to work out and if you do, have the bandwidth to work through that, if you have the money to work through that, you find that black kids, are even less likely to move. Then white americans- and this is a trend- is actually an accelerating for some time, Think of it. I wish I could take a bus think that's the the finding that
the an even bigger discrepancy. The black Americans have wanted to move actually higher rates than white Americans. If remember this right, but that they simply haven't been able to partially, because They don't have the me and now though, because at least don't fairly recently I've never were simply ruled out for them, yeah. I didn't move into these places because you had very racist neighbours. those research- I am I call that we will link in the chain which is well that, while declining internet mobility might be due to changing preferences for White Americans, whether its increase preferences for stability did aging or more, although factors very talked about lack Americans are increasingly unable to move when they expect to so it's definitely something worthy know in many of these explanations can coexist in and beat off to pick one of these things. I think that one of the big reasons that we were talking about this is because it would not be,
big of a deal that people were not moving that much. If America figured out how to do place based policies where you could invest in declining regions and make them as good as places that are already dynamic and economically prosperous. So a big factor here were. We know that that is important. To note is that it's really really differ, Hot to arms, like ok, people can't move to opportunity anymore. They can't move from declining states, are declining regions to places that have better jobs for them. When you can't invest and figure out a way to bring dynamism to those places where people what's going on here, is just that. It seems like foundational need for a place to feel dynamic and prosperous for new businesses, and things like that is that it has increasing population spokespeople lose. Our problem is kind of like you, don't self referential. In that way, we're like you want to stay the problem of a places declining people can't move somewhere where it's better you can't do it unless you get people to kind of moved the place it's declining, which is difficult to do because of all the things we've very talked about.
So anyone take another quick break and we come back. We can talk about what this actually means for the future of the country. People continue to move less and less. What do we expect to see for inequality? what do we expect to see for America's change in culture? Everything that that statement if you're looking for a fresh, convenient and, most importantly, super tasty, mule kid delivery service, you need to try hello, fresh, delivers, proportioned ingredients straight to your door. You can skip the line of the market and still failure pantry with everything you need easy for me. Meals every week for fresh offers, slew of different nutritious in satisfying recipe options, including plenty of low calorie incurred, conscious, picks right now, they're offering cosy wintertime classics from around the world like teeth, Tenderloin she's on due and me so sesame, shrimp and Bacon Rahman there's also vegetarian options for Betty's. Like me,
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talk a little better finding. How did you get that? Finding my notes, convict correlation is really difficult to prove. Causation was something like that and what you think that's gonna mean for the future. For that study. We took advantage of the fact that there's a long running social science study that's been put together by a bunch of scientists at the University of Chicago and in tracking american attitude since the seventies every year they get a national representative sample of Americans and they started asking a huge barrage of questions about how their feeling and since the seventy seven asking about how happy people are, how much day trust others and how much they think that others will treat them fairly and What we find is that in years. When there is less essential, mobility, Americans on the whole are less happy less trusting and I actually think that data be treated less fairly and it's a pattern that is fairly strong and debts fairly, linear, because
american mobility has been decreasing at this. This linear rate, so pretty confidence not about economic it's not even about immigration, but that we get this coral as one of these times. Here's goes down so just the other- and so we know it experiment of what we have sort of locks. Body into a place and then see how their behaviour changes. But we can look at other penalties which track people over time and in these studies we can see that when a person has wanted to move but is in the same place, next year, there outlook darkens date, and to think that America, maybe isn't living up to its promise themselves, less optimistic and there may be a low, but even more resentful of the successes of others, but if they do if people who want to move actually make the move find it they're more optimistic, having actually been able to those through on something that you want to do, brightens or outlook
I know you know we we play this point. Little will be, but, like I condemn the prime questions. One might ask response. This is, like, oh alike, is this just about other things economic issues are ever but an are unemployment and Judy P. Growth are usually cyclical, but mobility rates have been declining pretty steadily and nineteen forty eight through both booms and busts, and so like lightning mentioned been pretty pretty when you're or saying here, and just delving olympic works. If you like you, you get really into your paper about the waste but you could be like decreasing happiness and theirs one thing that you mentioned just like what happens to people who find themselves stock when they don't want to be, and, of course, maybe there in particular about those people who are these people who are likely to. I do not. have good social connections already, and so they want to move because they dont have their people not place end, and it is that which I think it here or is it something else like they feel like they have lost, opportunity they would rather have in the future. Somewhere else don't know for sure we have to do a lot of inferential worth, but at least it
medically. What we think is likely to happen this registration. If, if you want to move, you know you ve already, potentially pull back some of your social network right you're, trying to get out you may be now interested in aspen, at a time keeping your community ties in spending a lot of time. Working to gain new friend Ships are maintained, the patients who already have because you're trying it out, but if you can't then get out You might have all of the problems that come with residential mobility, he'll having trouble potentially making friends, maybe not be quite- is able to connect within your community, not really knowing maybe what your places in the world and now the benefits of our central stability. You don't have these deep ties, these deep networks, because you're trying to leave. Right, you're, trying to sever all that stuff. So it might be a uniquely unfortunate. Space to be socially and that we think, would likely player into the rest of your life, not to mention it.
That when you want to move, usually are trying to move away from something and this sort of case, if you wanna get out, but you can't yet the other summits, that's pushing you away from that place and that things he had a push in pushing push and if you can't escape at the camp, good for you are your overall wellbeing and enter. I, like the economic impact year, I think, what's, if there's one paper, I felt was great its amendment camorra and her Co. Authors talk about be effects of a nineteen. Seventy three volcano, eruption where in icelandic town had to be evacuated end many more turned to their homes. There are still standing, but for people whose homes were destroyed their significant and less likely to return for obvious reasons, and heavy authors found that children whose families were forced to leave following the destruction of their homes, were
likely to have a quote large increase in the long run, labour earnings and education? Specifically, the author say they causally estimate effect of moving of twenty seven thousand dollars a year or close to the doubling of the average earnings of hope people whose homes were not destroyed. Ministers actually massive effect here. It, I think, has won the bigger effects, found not more as great so odd in not not trying to Cassius birds on this funding, but I just I do think it eight illustrates kind of the magnitude of what it means to move and so do thoughts on what kind of drives people to have or any, in his paper, the kind differential between the parents whose who are bearing a lot of the costs of being forced to leave their area and the kid to our getting along the benefits and later in life, so did, thoughts on like, what's going on here, look if you're forced to move it out, like a selection of fact, there's no reason like that. A volcano would pick like more dynamic people who voted to destroy their homes or whatever, so so to do That's not how can we have some psychological long run benefits a sense that
if you moved from a place, you have to recreate yourself. Get us some sense. Put the old things aside especially if you're moving into an economy which requires a certain sort dynamism. you're gonna be more likely to be able to act as an individual an individualist sort of society, as think part, led the icelandic example that requires people too into a community. That's getting ready to take advantage of all of the the trade that are created by mobility, I think it they moved into a more collective society. It might have gone nearly as well. I think that you have this lovely match their between a society that getting ready to sort of do capitalism and people who are able to act more entrepreneurial because they have fewer connections to other members of their society
one other finding that you have, as you will get a survey of six thousand Americans and you find that people who wanted to move but remained the same. Address the following year are more likely to disagree that hard work and help a person get ahead. Even one control for a bunch of things like so. I think that as health age raised, etc, and you write the wanting to move but being able to leave leads people to wonder about whether their other efforts in life will be rewarded, and I mean it feels like that hides in a much broader implications than just kind of feeling unhappy right. Shoes where you live and sort of choosing who your friends are is really important. A mobile society like the United States, we much prize, the ability to get into and out of certain sorts of friendships, and if you live in a site like that and all of a sudden you can choose where you live, you can't choose the social environment in which are able to, for example, raise your kids here. That's fine, mental to identity as people and
if you're stifled in this very fundamental way it really it strikes at the very heart of who you are as a person and what you think the possibilities are for people who are. You were like you in the future to be the collectivist in the room for a second, we ve been talking a lot about the downsides of ends. the negative technological context sense of well mobility. concern I hear alive from people in rural areas is. Yes, you did great if kids in families Growing up here had more opportunities move elsewhere, but does not a fear of brain drain, dynamic, where the most talented entrepreneurial ambition. members of your town and all went up, leaving and what's left behind, suffers as a result, an ear. This concern with the different countries, of course, but they can also conceivably happen within the. U S, do you see serve negative psychological consequences either in your work for and other people's area,
is where lots of people do leave. Among people who are remnants, or is there a kind of trade off between the closure of the community in the flourishing of the individuals in it? The definitely is evidence that When you have allowed people leaving an area it changes, the area that people have left so there's work showing that endeavour we tend to be the ones who leave have given the choice and when you have large migrations, the people who are left behind tend to be more collectivist. The is that all the individuals move to tend to become more individualist. Then the areas that all the individuals move away from tend to become, or collectivist I don't know I just surly call it a brain drain per se. but it does seem to change the tenor of these communities, and I want I would just like to point out that I think that sting one places bad, I think actually really good. If something that you want. I think that there's lots of
the logical benefits to being from a place to being very rooted to sort of knowing the history of the place, and you know no in the history of the soil and being sort of really in. Rushed in a deep Benny, you're giving yourself a strong sense of home. I think they can be really support and give you a really lovely base from which to potentially try things out, because you know you always have a home to return to and must emerge, do want that. I think in the vast majority of Americans tend to be happy with where they live by where we worry, is for those people who want to be leaving but can't because- might not be looking for that deep, rich home be looking to sort of get into the fast pace. Exciting city, who are looking to be leading their under resourced neighbourhood and simply by dint of
public policy or economic resources. They simply can't that seems the mismatch his where we think the problem is. generally it seems like obvious if there are large costs to moving that the people who are necessarily able to overcome those costs are likely to be problems. situated economically than the people who are left behind, and we know this in general, with immigration people who leave, you know obviously often they're, leaving their themselves very disadvantaged various regions. They tend to be like slightly less disadvantaged and the people there and leaving behind on whether it's because of disabilities, whether it's because of illnesses or just eat, or people who are older. The display a situation where you gonna have distributional consequences. If it becomes situation where only wealthier people can leave, as the people placed left behind are increasingly kind of devoid of the both individualist end and the money they tend to have. But to mention in a you know in favour stability. This this idea that the non movers often are the ones who are promoting the type of social cohesion that can make a lot of the bed
fits of living in a place possible can talk a little about like what those non movers actually provide to community. I think There is something to be said for collective memory, but is also something to be said for having a really strong in dribs and if you have a group to whom you are responsible for these are people who are responsible for you hear the flip side Reputation is people who care whether or not you succeed or fail. So if in a community that does have these very strong community ties, because you everybody knows each other and his know each other forever. Wow messing up in hence brings with it long term consequences. It also brings with it people who we'll try to repair. That you're in a group in which there are only they say, fifteen people the success or failure of any one of those people really matters, and so the community's gonna pull together to make sure that all those will succeed. And so you get this ability to-
No, that people have your back, which potentially can allow you to try some sort of things that you might not. If you're working without the safety net you can take different sorts of risks down. living in a community in which nobody knows you and nobody cares, whether you live or die and broadly, it feels like the big Here is not saying that I know everyone should be a mover. Everyone should be a stair, but that there's a good balance in terms of making sure that your actually allowing for who want to move to move and people blew dont not do especially given the fact that a lot of this sort of depend and on where you are in your lifecycle. At some point in your life, like you can be a mover in some points are not any move. Really. You have children, you haven't got. It seem school for twelve years, semi different you than the person who is an empty nestor, unlike looking to see what happens happens then for them, and so you know did that's what's important here. Is that it's not a question of kind of pitting different kinds of people against one another and whose interests actual into putting out, but given that
you want to make sure it's easy to go when you want to go because it's gonna happen to you or your children are someone you care about some point, that its can be often unable leave and the need to go.
Thank you so much for being here neck. Thank you so much to Jerusalem. For today and for four every week that you ve been on over the last few months and Tralee been a joy and we will miss you terribly. Our producers. Have you along would be Nelson, as are the Tories visor and perhaps, as the deputy editorial director for talk pot casts, and I'm your house don't Matthews the weeds as part of the box media pockets network.
Transcript generated on 2022-03-09.