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The the I know everyone in welcomed episode, two sixty three of the two crime, all the time podcast. I might ferguson with me, as always, is my partner in true crime might give given. How are you a good man about you, don't great as good a man good week? Ok, looking forward to, My daughter coming home after her exams, she can be home for coastal mom and you're gonna love that I am really excited and she said she was excited to which I was a little shocked by yeah, but your take it I'll. Take it. It's a it's, a good feeling to know that she's excited to come home. Let's Let's start out with our patron shouts, we

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We had some pay pal donations, Brom, melissa, richards, melissa, Aubrey, eldridge, appreciate that Aubrey and Sarah crook goodwill, sarah, yes, I think so. Well gibbs, right now we have an episode out on true crime, all the time unsolved, we're headed to australia to talk about the Crawford family, murders, yeah, that's a good case. You know it was a occurred back in nineteen. Seventy unresolved we're going to look at the aussi, the murder of of the three kids and the mom, and then we're go ahead and dive into suspects and the search for the dad Elmer and will go into what's going on today with the case yeah. It's definitely good episode. Make sure to check that out. Alright gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime? All the talk me and I am ready we're talking about how to youngsters William sol then in the coal Kosinski? Is we ve done

persona like this before you this young, romance parents who don't we one of the kids to see other areas. In the murder of a pair an eighty year. The big thing for me gives, when you think about teenage roma. There are normally, I say, normally brief relation relationships that last what a few minds, maybe six minds Again, I'm saying normally there are outliers, but the way, no one really ever expects a teenage love affair to turn that, no, I don't think anyone's ever thinking. That when William Sullivan and coal Kosinski met in an online chat room there romance I will then to obsession within just a few days. Then that obsession turned into a plot for murder when

calls mother refuse to allow her to live with her boyfriend together. The teens came up with the plot to murder, Nicole, mother and they went through with it. So. This really was a relationship that was kind of combination. Teenager maturity la verbs. Ash in imports Seven is roma. Has I mean there's? Is you can draw all types of things into the mix yo, but I think it comes back to that tina romance, and it's something I know we ve talked about before, which is new in year. Fifteen. Sixteen seventeen years old, dad infatuation that law that you're feeling in that current relationship. It's it's like the everything of course here. It's all encompassing the

thought of that person, leaving you or breaking up with you or let's say when, if if and when they do it's the end of the world got wrenching sure yeah and at that moment that's your whole world yeah. I think that's exactly right and I wanna play a short clip. The call from an interview that she did with Dan hobby because of the way that our relationship was because he had become so much a part of my life and I mean I really didn't feel like. I was anything without him I had nothing in my life at that time I felt at that time. So the thought of losing hammond that wages was it ok with me you now, and that is

unfortunately, when conversations started about ultimately what happened, then think she saying Gibbs exactly what you and I just talked about right. Billy Sullivan was her entire world at that point in time now, this interview was a lot longer is about ten minutes, maybe even more. You may want to listen to it. You can go out Dan B. As his own youtube channel, he does a lot of interviews with people in prison. So I highly recommend now jean dominica was a loving mother, she was described as a kind woman. She was single mother to two children, Nicole and charlie, Jeanne worked as a pair of professional at birth, chill elementary school. She coach baseball at lincoln part

baseball field jean works, three jobs to support her family, one of them at a seven eleven across the street from her house. So single mother, who at this point is working three jobs to make sure that her kids are taken kara yeah. They have a meal on the table. Over their head. Jean was a compassionate person who always reached out to those in need. Amy bath Kosinski is the call stepsister told the hartford Kerr. I want people to realise this isn't some chick with a psycho dog This is my parents to talk about the poor little bit the coal, since guess, was born in nineteen. Eighty seven, nashua new Hampshire sounds familiar. Sound familiar, I'm not sure what nashua is best known for, but to me it's

holly flax on the office move to after you know, corporate found out that she and Michael were data. Maybe that's where I know from that be that sir, I just happen to be. Watching the office right now and I just watch some of those up surgery. We now know, I'm gonna get a ton of emails and learn that nash was famous for this her this. This I'm sure it is right famous for other things. I just only and you know it because of the office. The coal lived with her brother chow early and her mother, Jean Nicole, grew up without a father, and we talked about it. Jean had work, three jobs so Nicole had to do a lot of chores. She also had to take care of her brother. It was said gibbs that this took a toll on Nicole social. I've. She was introvert ed and she really only had one close friend. She was an attractive girl

but never had any boyfriends, because she was painfully shot and a lot of people said that nicole when jean were each other's best friend. I think it had to be hard on both of 'em right, the mom, because she's working all the time. I know she wants to be home tour with her kids, who doesn't, and it was hard on a call to because Nicole had to take care of her brother preamble, she's gotta pick up the slack I knew some of the things that a parent would normally do, because her mom's not there and there's no other parent to help out right and you have three jobs. You know two jobs is raw. Sure three jobs is tough. I mean extremely tough, I mean it to me: you're you're, just about finding time to sleep and not much else yeah and in between all that you gotta try to be apparent, try to be yeah in october, two thousand

dean, started dating a man named Chris mcgowan with whom she worked. They fell in love and they got engaged pretty quickly. Chris took on a fatherly role, and genes. Children like is out, it's been speculated on that nicole felt isolated, because ok. Her mom has a new husband, maybe She and her mom worn as close as they were before. I can see how that could happen. Now I think as a single mother that bob I would be very, very strong. It's like me and you and your brother against the world type of threat. But now you ve got a new person in your life obviously you love, because you got engaged this, no doubt at their relationship. Between mother and daughter is going to change to some degree? I think it's gonna have to write and if you feel like you're being left out

Where do you go to find the support you need? Where do you go to find that out person or persons that will listen to you and you need to get something off my chest. While verna coal, it was online chat rooms. That was a place where she could make friends. She was also able to confidently talked a boy, something that she'd. A really been able to do before gives you, and I have had discussions before about people being braver online and they are in real life, not normally talking about people being hateful right, saying things can I hate, filled type staff that they wouldn't say to your face, but they feel Trouble saying it online because He's a man in amity some distance space, whatever absolutely, but it also works the other one. Things that maybe you can

do in real life or you not comfortable with talking to pee members of the opposite sex or people that you would know We be attracted to you just can't walk up to them and talk to him painfully shy rights or just that shy While the internet allows people to do things like that, they can do in ramallah and more confidence. Sure the cold met William we're. Billy is he's known on the internet in two thousand to at the time she was born tea and he was sixty and you'll buy. Indications. She was immediately attracted to billy because was a handsome older boy who showed interest in her ear. He actually come to listen to what she has to say and she, gonna like that, while they also had along come both of their parents were divorced there, others worn in their lives, and they both struggled with social anxiety,

nicole and Billy talked openly about their struggles with making friends think fairly quickly. They decided that they wanted to pursue a relationship with each other. I think because, had so many things in common that they felt comfortable with each other and isn't it Naturally, how works may your kind drawn to people who share your same in truth or who you have things in common with Billy told Nicole, that he loved her within just a few days of their first instant message, conversation pretty quick, is really quick, for you know to people, or at least on his part. They ve never met right. I've never even spoken in person. At this point

this is purely typing on a computer screen there. Now you can develop those type of feelings, I think on line over time, but think so tat. Some people get catfish sure we ve talked about that. We ve even done some stories involving now, but in a day or two superfluous. As pretty quick, it was This point: did they started talking on the phone? The court found out the Billy live just two hours away and gives they were talking on. The phone so much, then Nicole, wrapped up in eight hundred dollar foamed. That would get my attention it was apparent. Well that would be a lot of money for anyone right, no matter what type of money you're making

We're talking about a woman who one point is working: three jobs keep everything afloat now I get it she's engaged in I'm sure Chris was helping out at that point, but You got a figure that eight hundred dollar phone bill didn't go over very well. I remember one point when I was in junior high was so called you know dating a girl that dna. Did you use it chrome, it's ok! I thought this was gonna, go a different ral. When you discovered like nine hundred numbers, or something like that. Ok your day, a girl and she lived in a lead. Allegedly, she lived in one of those You know areas that was considered long distance. Even though was not that far away yeah. I I get you back in the day, yeah yeah, but you know I just thought it was as I'll just die.

And talk you know- and I remember I had a pretty large bill that I had to pay off in the end, but also it after that. You know like that relationship wasn't going to go any further. You live way too far where is that we use the air quota based yo. Eight hundred dollars is a lot of money. The cole had to get a job just to pay for this phone bill. It's expensive, when a few weeks later, Nicole, told her other jean about Billy jean was surprised. I think she was a little concerned now one hand she wanted Nicole to meet people to have friends? I think her big concern gibbs. Was you whether or not this billy was who he was saying? he was now he was in this instance. He was telling the truth, but I think, as pair, We all know that, in our view, got afore

senior old daughter, who's talking to someone online who says they're sixteen ray It doesn't mean they are sixteen exactly. It could be a forty two year old, pedophile yeah, who is what they call grooming ray. We've talked about that before as well. I mean just going to have those general concerns as a parent. Yeah, and you should enter your right to be worried and want to know more about this person and all that billy was a teenager from will a mantle connecticut he and his men. There, therein ninety ninety nine he was, junior and high school when he and Nicole began Chad will you worked at a mcdonald's nears home. He was described as eager, friendly and shot the willow man take police had been called to his home too times in the two years leading up to this point in time there were talking about his mother Patricia was concerned.

Cause he stopped taking his medication and she thought tat. He might be so idle, William had allowed argument with one of his sisters. The police were called on. A domestic disturbance call by neighbors, said, that other than you, these couple incidents, a few occasional, loud fights or or whatever William, was a polite and respectful boy. Just the average boy next door, then, but billy had a pretty difficult child His father was an alcoholic who abandoned his fan. When he was a child His mother also struggled with alcoholism. He was molested by a neighbor at a pretty young age. I mean by tat He was four years old gibbs. He was in council on the spray rough at age. Eighty started taking medication because

He was diagnosed is emotionally disturbed well going through what he went through. I can understand that it would almost be kind of difficult, not to be emotionally disturb right, you're you're, going through a lot of things that or going to mess with your emotions. He had a lot of violent outbursts, most of them directed at his mother and sister Billy, once attacked his sister and a social worker with the base. All by he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, adhd defiance disorder and enter maiden explosive disorder. Salon goin on la disorders and all of them really being diagnosed at a fairly young age, but by age. Sixteen william was doing a lot better. He was taking is medication he had cannot develop to structure he had arrived teen in his life when he began

dating nicole, he decided to stop taking his medication because, as he put it, he wanted to your the full passion and intensity of the relationship then want to feel numb didn't wanna doll this new, when an exciting relationship that he was start. But I think we all know the dangers of just stopping medications. There is a huge risk involved here, and gene found out that Billy didn't have a car or license she offered to drive Nicole to connecticut, and I think she did this good because she wanted to supervise their first meeting very smart, very smart. I mean number one, I'm not sure how she was going to get there anyway

by wanting to supervise hey. I want to see this kid. I want to meet this kid. I might be. I'm gonna meet this kid's pair exactly This is not an individual with whom you go to school, looking up in the year, but you can't walk downs. Reed or drive across town. And meet his parents or make sure he is who says he yeah exactly. I gives us take a break to talk about problems, face it. There's no one size fits all solution. When it comes to health care, a product that works wonders for curls might make straight: hair limp and greasy. My wife is loving. Probes prose makes custom hair care, that's effective because its person They use natural ingredients with proven results in prose. Customize is every product in your routine from shampoo to supper,

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sixteen year old, who met online pray. You know spoke on the phone, but are in a really meeting for the first time. Ok pretty intends The call visited billy again in the fall of two thousand to they participated in a fake wedding ceremony. During this visit David talked about moving in together. Setting up a joint bank account. The coal was so attached to Billy that she stayed with him even after she found out that he cheated on her anything you kind of heard a little bit of it in that clear, and I think maybe you set it gibbs. They were so wrapped up in each other, at the very least. She was so wrapped up into her dad. I think she d view him as her whole world.

She didn't know anything else, but let's go back to this big wedding. Ok, we talked about intense, that's pretty, inter it's really in turn span, you talking about moving into gather, giving a joint bank account. These are young kids, mean fourteen sixteen talk about let's get married, let's get a joint bank account must get a place together Meanwhile she's two years away from driving and what probably have maybe a freshman most likely a freshman in high school at this time. Yeah it's got a lot of years in front of her, In november of that year, Nicole, told Billy that there were obstacles that prevent her from living with him. But Staying in nashua wasn't an option for her. According to the hartford courant, she told him. I just want to get out of this hellhole and go back to Heaven make from that. Nashua is her whole and he's her head

whatever she has to do to get back to him. That's what she wants to do exactly the coals friend Cassidy DIA later testified that Billy was a jealous purse. He wants storm down of a restaurant when he saw Nicole hug male friend. She also said dad billy hated nicole's Other jean well maybe hated her because of things that he learned with the conversations he had when a call, or fact that the call in gene were close. Maybe he didn't like someone being that close to Nicole, besides Yeah. I think, if you are a very, very jealous person and extremely jealous person, maybe do feel that way. In the spring of two thousand. Three Billy got his license and calls excited because that man dead he'd be able to see her more often at this point, Billy's eighteen nicole, was sixteen

as was said in all the papers, gives a billy's mom was not as strict as jean now he was eighteen years old. So now he was bound to have quite a bit more freedom, but he, basically, I think, was allowed to go anywhere. He wanted whenever he wanted. That's not gonna, be the same for Nicole now, she's. Only sixteen years old she's, not gonna, have near the freedom and Jean insisted that all their visits had to be supervised by a parent such no doubt. She was very protective in the summer of two thousand three billy came to visit Nicole in nashua, for we here arrived on august first and has reported that billy tried his best to Kennedy. On genes, good sign, your aims, kind use, respectful even helped around the house. And apparently she was so impressed with Billy that she fine

the allowed the teams to spend some time together unsupervised not that age. I was always trying to impress my girlfriends parents yeah. Normally, the more right you gonna win over the my mom's, a key, at least in my experts. If you go in the mama or that's more than half the battle, he I believe it is. I just never did it. You know out of some type nefarious thinking nothing really more to it than a. I want these people like me, I want them to see me as a good guy. I think for Billy I got the sense that it was all all about yeah warning gene to see him as a good guy, but for the goal of he give us some space there and, if good enough, if I'm nice, and if I can get to the point,

ere. She sees me as this respectable young man, then she'll back off but I'm sure they were really excited have some alone time. Yeah, I'm sure They were. The problem is as soon as they got that freedom day began, plotting to kill jean so than coal. Could move in with billy and I mean things happened very quickly, gives I said, He got there on august. First on august. Third, they put bleach and cold Madame. And genes half and have I don't know why they thought that would have worked. I'm sure you could smell the bleach in something like that I know I mention when I used to have a different job, that one time I cleaned out, that water tank reserve with some bleach and didn't

set out very well, and then one of the employees came in and took a cup of ice, cold water and spit it out and thought the throat was burning because the residue I left when I clean that water reserve out with the bleach the you could have been charged with some time been negligent, homicide provocateur, while the next day, They bought a long rope and inserted in to the houses all tank to try the blow up the house. It's crazy. This is like you know you see in a movie where no country your old man, where he's the the piece of cloth Then too cars, gas tang. Dear opening he delighted on fire any blows up the car there like this uses long europe as a fuse that should work on august. There

they tried to burn genes mattress while she was sleeping in her bed but the bedding. Was fire retardants when or how that went over yeah, I'm late. Obviously she probably didn't know about the first couple of tries but I'm not really sure how she didn't know Some I was trying to set her bed on fire but either way all these all these plans failed so billy, the coal that she should write a letter asking for emancipation, so she did right. She's basically gives and to do whatever Billy tells her to do right. We know that at this point she's so wrapped up into this relationship. She even said it in that short clip, so she wrote it and of course it didn't go over well. She got into a huge argument with her mother and Jean basically ended the argument.

Saying that nicole was no longer allowed to see billy anything right in and there that's why in the coal and billy decided that they needed to get rid of gene as quickly as possible. I like it, didn't try. Right day? There are already try, but now it's psychic, it's it's a half too she's drawn a line in the sand. She's forbidding us to see each other exactly on august, six billy entered the home began talking to Jean they talked for about twenty minutes. The gene get angry because the coal wasn't it She started arguing with Billy Billy would later say that at one point he saw. Genes mouth moving, but all he could think about. Was there she was never going to. Let him see Nicole again gives on picturing he's in a rage,

the words or coming out, but he's not understanding. That means not listening to them. He's got one thought. That is running through his mind and anger, sis increasing right, the rage is building up building up and what he decided to do was to strike gene in the back. With a baseball bat, then he hit her in the head, which split her scope. So this is brutal. It is the gene got up and she ran through the house trying to get away from it. So billy grab deny from the kitchen any stab gene and the shoulder so hard dad the knife blade burke was a very violent. For sure. Yet this is not an I'm upset with you attack me. No attack is good right, but this is, moreover, I'm going to kill you attack Billy grabbed another knife and he held jean down while he said

her in the neck and through gives in total he stabbed her over forty times aims and used three different knives to do or rhetoric and according to the hartford curve, The last thing jean said was: ok, I'm done, then. We really when you picture this heartbreak King sea were young man attacking a mother. Her skull is cracked she's been stabbed forty times to me, that's a man who is basically that's it for me. I know I'm going to die. That's heartbreak, it is our breaking billy's anchor was so intense yeah and then afterwards he went upstairs to change close. And clean up the coal while this was going on. Waited at these seven eleven across the street. She read: teen magazine why

She knew that Billy was murdering her mother after they met They left the area to continue to try to, stabbed their alibi, our so cold hearted. Well, and you, you said that he was called write me. She's very cold is well it's mine. Used to be her best friend and I'm gonna sit and read: teen beeder, whatever it's called nowadays, I don't know what it is While I know that my boyfriend is murdering my mother, because I didn't like how she said I couldn't be with him. When I talk a lot about serial killers and you know how all they are their lack of empathy. I think you it's rough to say it. This way, which kind of expected from a serial killer it's just how they are tat. We know them to be right to me. It's a little different when you're talking about a sixteen year old girl to be so

Oh, it just comes off a little differently. For me, I guess as I'm, and why can we not just run away while the The thing that comes to mind is ok, she's not going to stop trying to find me and she's gonna call the police and say that my eighteen europe boyfriend his now, it's me and maybe there's some some things they're right, but it's still better than the police. Looking for you as a murder, suspect eventually. Well, I'm sure they thought they were smart enough to have as many killers do I'll get away with. Says. No, we ve made a plan were smart enough, the police all pin it on somebody else. I know when I was a teenager I often thought I was smarter than I really was yeah yeah. I think you still do to be answered.

You know when I was a teenager. I thought I was broken albert einstein. I thought it was smarter than everyone. Now look back on it. I was a dumb ass, but I was to say that I didn't think of it. That way, the time it was christmas. Who found genes body that evening after work, he went home to dinner. Games with the family I'm sure, as he probably did most nights, but when he the home that night he found gene face down in the fire, and then so much blood gibbs that first responders couldn't tell how jean had died. So we said forty statue but her body was so bloody. They couldn't even tell the kitchen and living room were covered in blood when jean was examined, they saw that she had a fractured skull, but eventually the

number of stab wounds was put fifty sab message, a huge number, so long standing and probably goes back. The comment that he used three different knives so like a lotta case is Chris? Gowan was the first aspect. He was the significant other he lived in the home. He found G. He went to the police station answer questions he told officers that he was covered in blood because he grabbed jean when he found her. He said that he thought she had fallen down the stairs, but then he realized she was dead and he called nine one one, and this is something that comes up in a lot of cases. Especially involving husband, wife, significant others. If you found someone that you love Then they were lying in a pool of blood. Would you know

rush over and do what ever you could do to try to figure out what was going on there was some way that you could help them absolutely yeah, I think. Most people work and if you couldn't help him if somebody you knew you probably still cradle them and hold onto him as a last effort to say goodbye area, I think that's a great example as well now the true crime, she and ato and ass. The csi in us would say, don't disturb the crime scene right, but we don't think that way. Motions women not right! It's too emotional! This is my wife. This is my boyfriend girlfriend whatever it is, you just want to get to them and hold the detectives believe that Chris was telling,

truth they asked here who might have wanted to her jean christianity didn't know he did express concern for charlie and Nicole. Safety charley was spending the needed a friends house, but no one knew where nicole was then he told the officers about The coals relationship with Billy and the fact that the coroner mom had had numerous fights about billy He told them that on august fourth, Nicole announced tat, she was going to finish out high school in connecticut and live with Billy's pham. He told them. About the emancipation letter. In that gene had said that new coal could no longer see bode well. If I was to police the investigators, I would want to at least have a little conversation worth. Billy yeah, I dig at the very least you're seeing some motive sure possible mode of their billion.

I returned to the house said: seven forty p m: when they got there, they told the police that they had been at the mall and they attack did these six p m showing of pirates of the caribbean. Nicole, said she even called her more to say, that she was on her way home, but jean didn't, sir, so she left a message for Chris Nicole ass police work. What's going on where her mom was. Obviously they had to break the news to her right, but they also took both then the coin billy to the police station for questioning and they had separate interviews One thing that was reported in a lot of different articles gibbs was that when police did tell the coal that her mother was had she seemed more concerned about how Billy was doing then. The fact

dad her mother was dead generation eyebrows here, and it often done right how people act when they hear certain types of new. Well, let's face it. There is a way that we all kind of think some one is going to act when their toll, all that their mother. Were there father or another love one is dead, has been killed, police weren't sing. Her. Only concern was: what's going on with Billy can be a red flag. The pole told them is that she and Billy went to walmart Duncan donuts. Bowling alley, the more and to the movies and she had receives from each location very convenient, I think that's a good word. Convenient now. A lot of people might keep their receipts. I've never been that kind of person.

I go through mcdonald's, I'm not! Finally, that received away for my c p, I don't need it in the bag. You know not. Together a dossier of receipts too. Bring home to my wife to prove where I was all day I just member already am I his my kids money to go out and do something I was lucky to get any change back home. We see right, let alone the receipt to show how much they actually spend right. Billy the same version of events, but he seemed very nervous and fidgety. During the interview. Apparently, there were as one key difference in their stories. Nicole sad. They went to the movies, but billy in his interview said skip the movie, so you know that something the police are gonna, zero in all sure and consistency. So they went back. They pressed the call for answers. This

in time around. She told they different store. She said that earlier that day she unarmed their god into an argument over her request for emancipation, she told police that gene hid her repeatedly billy. Intervened, her mom grabbed a knife and when, after billy Billy grabbed a back to defend himself and accidentally killed g and gives This is kind of a part of a lot of the true crime stories that I really find fascinating once people are at the point where there, interviewed by police right and they of one story and please don't like that story, They find a whole and that story. I wear switching gears we're onto a different story. How do you like this one? Does this one some better to you, I always find it fascinating how people feel,

as though that is going to work now this a sixteen year old girl was not forget there, but the stories are always so drastically change to sometimes your leg. There we were just doubted duncan doughnuts in the movies now billions in a fight for his life, Has to defend himself and accidentally kills my mom. How do you accidentally get those stories mixed up? It's not something you forgot about when you walked into the station biting Billy was doing even work you know. As the hours passed, He grew very agitated. At one point, pointy punch to table he vomited into a trash can the tactics were clearly saying that something wasn't right with. You. They asked him what was wrong. He said daddy had a lot on his conscience,

and then he finally admitted to killing gene, but he said it wasn't self defense. He told police that he and the coal planned out the murder. He told them that on the sixth, in the coal told jean they were going out for the day. Billy said he grabbed a baseball bat from charlie's room and put it by the front door. Then he and the coal drove around town stopping at all. These different stores to get rich seeds for their alibis at six, thirty p m. They parked at these seven eleven Billy ran across the street how to kill jean. He said he knocked on the front door and jean let him in he told the show killer couples that I didn't really believe I was going to do when I walked in those doors. I didn't really think it was gonna happen. He said

he tried one last time to convince gene to allow the cold move out, but when she reviews there was probably were pushed them over yet, when he got angry. He grabbed the baseball bat. He said he thought the first hit would kill her like he had seen in the movies, but instead jean just got mad and asked him what the hell are you doing here, that's really when it turned into a fight you and that's something that comes up a lot real life versus the movies you in the movies. Sometimes they show some. One strangling a person in it happens so quickly re it's over within seconds seconds, but You hear from the mouths of stranglers that the first time they did it, they were shocked.

Number one, how long it took in number two, how much force it actually took to strangle somewhere with so much easier on tv. I know you seen some gunfights, some shooting on tv, and you know when you see that is not how it actually happens. So now you shoot those god does not how you we'd love those bali and nothing in the movies is usually all that correct number one: in the movies guns never recoil the way they do in real life. People just keep shooting then the gun just say stay stray right. Now, that's not. How is now were imagine if your favorite casino came with an undue button. That's exactly what you get on and all casino, because right now new customers, play risk free up to one thousand dollars. That's right, if you don't

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hitting jean with the back stabbing her. He said that one she started, there was just stop. He told killer couples, she turned her back and it happened in a split second we got into a fight, then I figured you know. I already started might as well finish gives us cold as shit is really cold. To say that you know hey I'm this far in and I might as well finish her off is basically what he is saying. Why go to jail for assault? When I can go, all the way man he said. The best way I can describe it is one of those old tvs and your life king added in and policy fuzzy and you know what you're watching, but it's not like you're doing during his interview. William said that killing jean started off as a joke between he in the coal, but it became a fantasy overtime.

When he realized, as he put it, that it would really work it would accomplish. Everything they needed to happen. He said it's like a fantasy we'd planted, but we would never do I am obviously, in my opinion, the most harmless person in the world. This is what this kid is saying after beat a mother with a baseball bat and stabbed her to death fifty seven times. So really he thinks he's the most harmless person in the world. After what he just did. You should lead him watch your children. He is harm, so Billy has confessed, he's told everything, police went back to Nicole and they told her that Billy can she started crying and then she eventually told the true billy is charged with first degree murder. On august seventh, two thousand and three nicole was charged. Sadly in juvenile court, in order to

and trial as an adult william gave up his right to a preliminary hearing on august nineteenth two thousand three on august. Twenty third that year the DA's office received word dad William, would not plead guilty his attorneys. We're going for it and sandy plea they present evidence that he witnessed domestic violence experience. Sexual abuse needed medication for psychological issue use and lived in residential psychiatric hospitals by the age of nine, and we did talk about it. We did He had a very messed up childhood. I don't know how much job the messed up childhood had to do with some of the things that he developed. My thought is, probably quite a bit sure had a role in it. I'm sure- and you have to remember he according to him, he stopped taking his medication because he wanted to

the emotion said he had with nickel, and I don't think there's any doubt that these stopping of the medication probably played a huge role in what ultimately happen. The prosecution ass Nicole to test fight against Billy in exchange for a lesser sins, but she refused. She was in love and I think it was more than that we ve all I've been in love? Probably most as many many times. This was more than obsession yeah this was you know so intertwined and obsessed with each other, then in two thousand five prosecutors lorna billy was in a relationship with a fifteen year old girl named mony, teal mony lied about her age so that she could visit him in prison. So I guess they were pen, pals, billy, also coulter from prison.

And gives this relationship was exactly like the one that he had with Nicole Billy said he loved me. He was obsessed with her. He wanted her to convince Nicole not to testify against him, but Nicole found out dad this boy that she thought was her. Everything her soul made was seen someone else. And you know that had to have been devastating for her. There's no need to reach out to the call to convince her not to what was he thinking that they weren't gonna talk. They were going to talk about How many men, who are you why, in talking to my boyfriend, What's your relationship with Billy here, oh, he loves you, two, hey hey you say Is that, like in ohio version of a, I guess? Well, right after this, that she reached out to prosecutors and took their deal. So

not real smart on Billy's part, because you know for you here. She had remained very loyal to him. She was not going to turn on him because he was her soul. Me yeah, shit, billy blinders on but then I think her eyes were opened after this revelation. The new girlfriend, Nicole Kosinski S, pleaded guilty to secondary murder, an conspiracy to commit first, very murder on march twenty eight two thousand fought in exchange for testify against Billy. It is try his trial. Started on june twenty first, two thousand five gives the prosecution had some really good evidence against Billy? Will he take confess? He confessed They also had his bloody fingerprints in the house. His bloody cod thing and on top of that nicole's testimony, you think I'd be more than enough yeah. That's my way of thinking

mc Gowan testified on june twenty second about finding. Means body he said I know, down next fiji, She was on her side and I bet her hair away from the side of her face when I saw that her eyes were wide open, terrific memory to have to hold onto oh, you, never forgetting that, nicole testified on june twenty nine. She said that she will didn't. We went in the house to get a cloth for william to wipe out the blood she didn't want to adverse, but eventually she agreed to do it. She had trouble getting into the kitchen because her moms body was blocking the door. She literally gives had to push her mothers body with. The door to get inside sickening, she said I didn't know what to do. I said to myself: what's going on? What am I doing?

Why do I have to do this? There was blood everywhere. I totally lost track of what I was supposed to do for a second to get to the bathroom. I had to step over her, so I did pretty cold. She said that she got the towel. She picked up a knife blade and dropped. It the sewer she also said. Billy was fidgety and he got angry when she became emotional. He told her. I know We just saw the worst thing in the world, but I just did the worst thing in the world: the code. Told jurors that she bought billy some clean clothes through more evidence into a wooded area of a golf course in a different town. She then place the con left a message for Chris Mc Gowan. Basically, in her words gives just to see if he knew what had

Then she went with william to one of her mothers, friends, houses to say, good bye. She said, eventually, they, turned to the house that evening the police questioned her and she couldn't remember her alibi and attacked. I told her that they found blood in Billy's car, so Nicole said she totally different story because She thought it would make the crime look less plan Well now we know why their stories did matt of all the things that you should not forget, its, probably your alibi and was how one little detail right. We go to the movie, or do we not go to the movie now? Would they have nab these to eventually yeah? Probably? But I think that allow, detectives to really honan on them, much much quicker and probably break them, much quicker the cold, scribe her intense, obsessive relationship with Billy. She testified about

They tried to kill jean three times before the murder accord to her, William was the one who came up with all the plans for murder. His final plan was to be jean de death and make it work is, though, someone broke into the house, so she put in all that on him. Yeah she put everything on him, and she also said that she felt is though she had to go along with his plans, because billy was threatening to kill himself. He said he couldn't handle driving home and that, if he had to, he wanted to drive into an eighteen will Billy's defence attorney question a call about her inconsistent statements at one point she said she had never seen. Billy take medication then she said she saw him, take medication ones. At one point. She said that

she poisoner mothers, coffee kremer. Then she said Billy did it. His defence attorney also criticized her for saying that she got away with her mother and until she started dating Billy. I think, as you just said, gives the defence attorney was pointing out that she was trying to shift remit, one hundred percent of the blame onto him, so Billy's fault. I was manipulated You responded by saying I wouldn't say it's his fault. It's his inflow, Billy's iter These did go after an and sandy defence. They argued that nepal used his mental state, an obsession to convince him to kill gene for her. They submitted the latter from Nicole, where she wrote that she would kill to be with him

There was one large job school in the way, and here I think, gibbs the defense was done pretty good right. Trying to present some of this evidence. A lot It was probably working in their favour until the prosecution called moaning. Teal mony testify that her parents forced her to end her relationship with Billy. When she told Billy than her parents didn't approve of ham. He said that he could quote, take care of it, implying that he could have her mother killed. Well, that I'm gonna go well, it doesn't really fit into the narrative that your defence team is trying to preserve the case, to the jury on July, fourteenth two thousand five on the fifteenth Lee solvent was found guilty of first to re, murder and conspiracy to commit first to re murder at the age of two

he was sent to life in prison without the possibility of pearl on September, a nicole ascends to forty years in prison. Did have two and a half years removed from her sins after she completed her ged. This was part of her plea agreement. Another part was that they would reduce, you said, buy another two and a half years if she completed an advanced degree, but I never did you're out whether or not she did that yet no, she got her ged, but I don't know if she ever completed the advanced degree, probably worth it to get out two and a half years early churches, yet plenty of time to work on it. She does yeah she's got quite a bit of time, but the judge said that nicole was quote every bit as culpable as william, so yeah I mean she knew was happening

She was aware she participated in the planning of it. Is she didn't carry it out, but everything before that, I think he was right in her. I don't think there's much doubt about that, but she certainly didn't do anything to stop the murder from happening. No, no, not at all at the sentencing. Chris Mcgowan Gowan told the coal that he couldn't even think about how you she at the seven eleven. Knowing that her mother was being murder. He also talked about a phone conversation between coal and g. He said one of the last things jean ever set was nicole, come home and he said that he had flowers scheduled to be delivered to jean on august. Fourteen in celebration of their third anniversary but apparently the floors messed up and sent the flowers on august fit, and Chris said that he was here

happy that gene was able to see her flowers before she died. This was woman who was very below your local school, put up a ban They planned a tree in her honour, the city name, there, a ball field after her chris told Nicole, she loved you Nicole. She was proud of you and she knew that moving took another It was not in your best interests and gives a key imagine many parents would think it would be in there. Sixteen year old daughter is best interest to move, took inadequate to finish our high school. And live with this boy that you know she's known, for a while, but not on the level to move in with them now in another state, in another state with another family. According to be lawyers amy bath, Kosinski S, Nicole sister, said every

teenager has the right to make bad choices, but this wasn't astronomically bad choice. If I had been a better big sister, if I had been a better adviser to you that you would have made a better decision, it's tough. You know for a sister or step sister to think. If I had just done this, I could have done more right and I think that's very common for members of a family her in this situation, to think what could I have done? That would have changed this. That would have stopped this and before it got to the point it did. It was there a point that I could have recognized and made a difference. Nicole chose not to speak at her sentencing. Hearing her lawyer said after the hearing,

I don't think there was any thing she could say to help the situation. She feels a tremendous amount of regret remorse. I think she was trying not to inflame the situation any more. I mean what was she going to say other than shouldn't have done what I did. I regretted, but I'm sorry and you did do what you did yeah. You know you did play the part to play. He didn't regret it till you got caught, that's absolutely true, as is with most people. I believe I do think there are people that kill did, I regret it yeah, but I think by and large most killers, don't really regret it. They regret the fact that they get copyright on September eleventh two thousand and six williams, We have been requested a retrial. He argued that his former lawyers, Paul Garrity and rick monteith, hurt his chances in court by roof

using to allow him to testify. He said they also withheld favourable evidence and arguments. He won his request for a new lawyer, but the state supreme court put his appeal on hold. While he requested a retrial, the state supreme court overturn the conviction in two thousand and eight. They found that the trial judge erred by replacing adjure during deliberations and not doing enough to make sure that the jury would start deliberations from scratch. On june. Fourth, two thousand and nine william was convicted of first degree murder for a second time, so I understand why the supreme court ruled the way they did yeah. I think we see this more and more right the trout judge did something that they shouldn't have done. Ok, we're gonna, have a retrial, but most often

it results in the same outcome as it did here on june tenth, two thousand and twenty Nicole lost her bid to commute her presence ends. By that point she had served fifteen years, less than half five, her prison term. The union leader reported that councillor Deborah pig Nataly said she has acquitted herself well while in prison, and I commend her that I can also see a time when I might consider a commutation for her sins, but for me that time is not right. Now, Nicole, will be able. To apply for further reduction in two thousand thirty one after serving two thirds of her sentence just ten years away, which point you'll have done what about twenty six years in prison if they let her out at that point, would I He raving mad about it- probably not,

me, you talkin bout, a sixteen year old, who obviously did something horribly wrong right is twenty six years fair. You could make the argument that it is if she had done this in canada. She'd already be out for sure. There's no doubt about it. Yeah, I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just you and my head. I try to grapple with what I feel is fair yeah doesn't mean your fields. Fair doesn't mean that everyone in the audience will agree with me. I don't expect that at all. No, no, it's just you know when we hear about a rape is getting out after a year. That's not fair, that's not just right and that that makes us upset so gives as we wrap up this case. You know we've seen it before, but it still baffles me how

you two people can become so obsessed with each other that they allow it to basically overshadow everything else, including in this case the coals for her mother and she started to view her mother as an obstacle she went from being her best friend to basically some. Who was in the way of her happy arrow block a roadblock, and she thought that the only way that she could be happy was to be. With billy, and the only way to be with Billy was that her, Mother had to die and he felt the same way. It was just too immature man yeah, I mean you obviously there is some immaturity that plays into it. There are some very rational, thanking

obsession. There's all kinds of different things that kind of keen to gather, but what results? did was you know a disaster, a tragedy decisions that they may were irreversible gathers no reversing death, but that's it for our case on william sol, then in the coal consent scares, gives you get some boys value and check. This out is zero, he making gimme a blogging quoting again from Victoria bc, canada. I called you guys probably about three months ago about a cake book into kimberly, proctor and there's another case. Another solved case as well that I would really like you gotta go again do and it is a man, a man from oak bay, which is on the cover island named andrew berry, who died his four year old and six year old to death a

christmas morning, there's some newer stuff with this trial that just come out or not as trial. I guess like if appeals and or stuff like that, but yet the it's very disturbing case so I'll know, if you guys won't do it, but it's always nice to see cases especially from canada. I love hearing canadian cases. They y'all stay safe, keep your own time taken and he might and given the love you all so much and you gotta think out that much have a great holiday season. Thanks thank you ma. Am we love you too? We appreciate the voice mail. Do I envy ass? I saw the case. I am very familiar with em out again to sounds like something we may want to do can be rough. One very rough, I think no doubt about it. Hey mikey like now. I can understand that

my name is melissa and I live in alabama. I'm a patriot member and I've listened to just about all of the t, cat lt cat and twelve episodes, and I wanted to give you guys a call, because I listen to the hervey, miss gear episode or used not as a sorry and the band that Jimmy was trying to think of is the runaways. That was the first band that and joan jett was in and she was about sixteen seventeen years old on lita ford was in the band and I think she was either the drum or a guitarist and the other person. Then I think it'd be better to think of his recovery she's, the one who chose cherry bomb and she was also in the runaways, so yeah just wanted to give you guys call and let you know that that's who that was and offered to. Thank you guys, because this is a really hard time of year for me and my family, my mother died in car accidents six years ago tomorrow, so you guys you're just kind of keeping me company

In keeping my mind off of that, so I really appreciate you guys and thank you for everything that you do, and I hope you guys have a great day and great holiday and lashley be safe and keep her. Dr thinking by well thank you very much for your voicemail, obviously gives our thoughts go out to her and her family. Absolutely it's tough time we're, but we also appreciate the information and it's surprising how close you were You are on the right track had no idea. I couldn't even help you. I just really had information about that bad, and didn't remember them. I think they might them for my time, I'm always on the right track. Your on the right track, you just never use centred you kind of going off the track. Sometimes he jumped back on you just can't box me in man. I'd try not to.

Hey mike it's jacob urban from iowa and recently, we've had a really interesting case happen where these two types of two sixteen year olds are killed. Their spanish teacher who, like I want to say fifty and they have a really found among the advice. It was a strange couldn't happen that far away from Me- and so I thought I'd be in arid and came to look into and if you need more information or stuff like that, I can help searched above two fell. Well, I love the part of the eyes and keep your own time taken. I would definitely look and allow one as well stuff happening that continues to happen. It will always happen. Human nature, human nature. Unfortunately, that's that case? It also means that there is never really going to be a shortage.

Stories to talk about in the true crime world, because it's it's like history. History is happening every day. It is, and so is true. Crime we had some mailbag gibbs, Robbie and felicia invited us to their wedding down in south padre island. All right, I'm on my way. Okay pack, your bags yeah, I think it's in February okay- was- can be a lot warmer there than no doubt about that. James ingram sent us in a poker chip from nova, scotia awesome, very cool and christina Jarvis send us a very heartfelt letter of appreciation. It was touching, it was moving, turned up a little bit I really appreciate absolutely. We certainly did my dad. Is it body for another episode of true crime, all the time so for my gavi stay safe and Keep your own time ticking

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