In new orleans, twenty twelve burst catch. Here I drove to an address some one had given him that didn't exist ass. He stood in the park What were the address should have been, he was shot and killed. I'm You d umbra join me for the newest season of counter clock. As I die, the motive behind bruces murder- a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now binge all fourteen episodes of or clock season. Five, wherever you listen to pod. Support for this programme comes from arkansas escape to natural state. outdoor adventures to indoor attractions in just a few miles or a few minutes near it all, but faraway planted trip at arkansas dotcom I

the. welcome to through graham garage wherever you are, whatever you are doing things for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me, as always, is the least attractive guy on the podcast. He is the captain. I failed to see your humor, my friend, it's good to be seen, and it's good to see you thanks for listening. Thanks for town, a friend

tonight we are drinking metal by trillion. Brewing company, a beautiful boston, massachusetts garage grade four and a half bottle caps out of five. This is A beer for all you hop heads out there with a point for a baby. This is a very happy and dry imperial double with him tangerine, white wine and all wrapped up with a smooth dry, finnish and metal was brought to us by these smooth criminals. First up a big shot out, and thank you too, nicole and Adam, who sent some love to us visa airmail. with them on untapped. So thank you too, nicole and Adam Big shot out of prison from Centerville virginia next we have Nicole. This is another nicole from groton connecticut and a big shot out to legendary the legendary joe and jimmy how no shot out Jimmy because he didn't want to donate with job. So big shot up big like your job,

to the legendary joe, also a shot out a windy and was sallow arkansas, going to read her no, but basically captain she is inviting you wanna crime spring, which is funny, but is also very much the opposite of what we are doing. Why read the nodes very, very inappropriate? We also have rebecca and cornelius organ and, last but not least, a big thing. you d joanne from casey, Australia. So thanks everybody for on up the fridge this week and if you want to buy us around for next week, show go to true crime, garage dot, com and click. The done button full non man. I can't thank you guys enough for re tweeting reposting the spreading the word about the show on social media means a lot and it does help a lot to. Thank you. So much we'd like your chip, all right, everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. and

The family of a teenager murdered thirty four years ago, was making a new plea to solve that crime. They are frustrated now, with the progress on vacation. Demanding answers from investigators tend to be judged. Burglar has more on their new push for justice. It is one of the oldest unsolved murders and frank and counting. We talk to the family of milk means a month ago. thirty. Fourth anniversary of his death, and today, bill sister continues to pose tweets like these, as, if we're talking from beyond the grave- and she has only

one go to, never let bills voice. Go silent I never wanted to be a best kept secret for thirty four years, I don't the clue, men or now job Comin speaking for her brother bill, a battle she says is going nowhere. Nine says a box of I was sitting on a shelf gathering dust knew he had injurious fourteen years old, he and his whole life ahead of him. Some made decided to end built he was found just down the street from his house on January. Seventh, nineteen eighty years have passed. The case is grown cold and she feels, even today, her family has been left out in the cold express training. trying to get answers trying to get somebody to return found cause returned emails to get some kind of information. Here's one to the franklin county shares the permanence and please don't give up on me now the community's railways

as there were, certain pieces of evidence found here. The murder scene, a knife a beer bottle and what could be the most significant bill scarf? That was, to strangled him. Now, a body fluid was found on that scarf and the family says it was supposed to be for dna last year, but they are still waiting for answers theirs. I me somebody that can do something: there's no reason the star there's always can be some hope, and she will continue to pressure and publicize her plight in whatever way she can. As the battle for There's goes on to find bills killer. If my man has tormented you for decades. Then you know what happens me share frankly county sheriff zack scarred, tells me that the dna samples in question is so small that, if they use it, wants to test and may be gone forever. That's why they're, taking extra time to review it he says is detectives will continue to work. The case kathleen says in mail from a detective promises of follow up meeting with a family. She says she hopes that happen.

Meantime, these tweets, she says, will continue. The on the evening of january seven. Nineteen eighty fourteen year old bill co means is helping his father work on the family car. He went to where's down to get his sister to walk home from a birthday party. This is bills little sister Kathleen, who was only nine years old. However, the pot he was not over kathleen, does not. To come home yet and ask bill to come back and get her later right, so a good older brother, he's gonna, come home and then he's gonna tell his parents here I can get our late or no big deal, and I think the way that this thing went down captain is did bills father, Robert and his mother. They

the three of them were supposed to go to the mall. That evening, while Kathleen was at this birthday party, now they didn't go to them all, because the family car was not running properly and at this discovery, his father upper and bill, decide that they're going to stay in the garage and work on the car. Now, throughout this night, bill will be helping his father and he even brings his father a cup of coffee, his two brothers. He has two older brothers. They are at home, this time, along with their mother, all are presumably in the house. Now. You're, bringing his father a cot, a cup of coffee. For the second time, bill goes out to the goat the garage and goes to the front, porch front yard area of the property? Well, let's talk a little bit about this neighborhood I mean so this is columbus, ohio, so we're pretty familiar with this, but those of that aren't, if you ever seen the show the wonder years now that show was set

I can time a little bit but similar neighbourhood. yeah. I actually lived in this neighbourhood at one point one time for about a year or so, and you ve been out there to visit me during this time in It's a small neighbourhood and to describe it to everyone that the best way we describe it is theirs very few. What I would call likes rate roads, it's a lot of winding roads through this neighbourhood and all losses, are their smaller homes, probably were bill in the sixties and late sixties? I would guess, but that gives you picture of this neighbourhood; small homes, windy roads, the homes are pretty close together, yeah when I was first looking into this case, I at that there would probably be some confusion. As you know, this happen on a monday, but there is a birthday party, yet well What's up with that yeah, it's a strange evening to have a birthday party by my but take note of this people out being on shooting.

the hip here, because there are some parents out there that are like you know what my kid was born on january. Seventh, we have the party on january seventh, you not taken to consider it in all your guest and do this thing on the weekend place yeah. I don't know if that happens as much anymore, but ok, so it's Monday night work and on the car last time they see bill. Is he delivers this cup of coffee and they're, probably trying to settle in for the night, and they have work and school the next day, so words bill. Well, you exactly! Because robber is dead, bills. Father robber is done working on the car. At some point he comes inside. He talks to his wife. He expects to see bill inside the house bills. Not there She says the obvious thing: oh, I thought he was out in the garage with you know. He must have went back to collect kathleen from this birthday party. They go down to the birthday party. Kathleen their bill is nowhere to be found. They called

into the local police department. Now we said this was. We said this is columbus ohio, but this is outside of two seventy, so to seventy. Is the outer belt free way that goes around columbus ohio? This is what would be called the west side. and its typical back in these days that a small police department called new rome might have actually been the police officers. That would have responded to this call right, so we have fourteen old boy, miss and its believed. His father would later report that they believe that bill was probably last in about twenty minutes or so before they realized. He was not at the house right, so not long. After they report him missing the police, are there they're going to surveillance the whole area? For I nine forty five or so yeah around nine forty five, the police or on the scene. Looking through the neighbourhood Billy's father

in a neighbor and billy's, two brothers would end up finding bill near train tracks. At the end of a dead end street a bill is lying face down in a snowy, ditch his winter scarf is knotted tightly around his neck and he is unconscious. This spot strange enough captain only about two blocks away from the families home and, as we said, this is near train tracks, so he's lying face down a monks. You know trash beer, bottles, rusty, car parts, that sort of thing bills rather mike using a pocket knife cuts, the scarf from bills, neck bills, far An older brother bob perform cpr on the young man until the ambulance arrived bill was transported to a nearby hospital. The hospital this is called doctors west. It's me

just two or three miles away. So a very quick drive to the hospital, but unfortunately, at the hospital bill is pronounced dead. This would be around eleven p m. At night the cause of death was listed as strangulation blonde. smith, says other than the strangulation. There were no other signs of violence or a struggle, nor was bill, robbed on arriving at the hospital law. Law enforcement was working with two theories. either bill was murdered, or this was some kind of suicide Now it wasn't until april twenty seconds they ran, I don't even think they even said suicide, two I mean wasn't at some point. They thought was possibly accident. Yes, your exactly but but upon arriving at the hospital. These are the two theories that their working with

it wasn't until April twenty second, that they released the coroner's report. The coroner ruled that the death, a homicide, the cause of death, was actually you know. I said strangulation earlier, but the cause of death was actually cardiac arrest due to compression of the neck by ligature. You know I would, as I mean ok, so basic He has a heart attack because there's extreme trauma to the bar you know: you're cutting off the airway he's unable to breathe, and this this brought upon this heart attack that ultimately killed right, but that's probably, by more force than if he accidentally tighten the scarf around his neck to tighten its price, because a lot more force on the neck might cause the heart attack is yes, I correct. Yes, what but I also want to touch upon something real quick here. You know we said that this he went missing was found unconscious

on in january of nineteen eighty, it wasn't until April late April. Nineteen eighty did. The coroner's report was released. Now I've heard a lot people read a lot of people stating that you know. Oh, it's the nineteen eighties. They didn't really know what they were doing back then in this is the cause for the delay of this coroner's report actually don't believe that to be the case at all? I think that they probably new very quickly within days. of him arriving at the hospital of what was the manner of death. I believe that what actually happened here can it was there might may have been a dispute between the sheriffs department in the corner as to the cause of death Is there any other findings that the coroner find? Yes, toxicology report shows volume and bill combings blood but other than that there are no signs of personal drug use by the fourteen year old. Now, law enforcement are not sure how bill

the volume or why it was in his system. The coroner publicly declares the death a very bizarre case, nand we're going to see why very quickly, because it was quickly reported after his death after the young man's death, that on two previous occasions, the first being in september and then again, in october of nineteen. Seventy nine bill was attacked by to unknown males any was choked on both of these occasions. Bill co means, as we said, he's fourteen years old, and I want to paint a picture of bill for you now. Fourteen sounds very young. I've seen pictures of bill and bill is six foot tall about a hundred and seventy five pounds he's a freshman at westland high school he's. You know from all accounts he's the teacher say, he's a perfect student. His

his parents say he's a perfect child. He played the piano. He was in the school choir is a newspaper boy yeah. He he had a newspaper route for some time now. I do want to touch upon this, a six foot tall hundred and seventy five pounds, because I've seen pictures of bill. He does not look fourteen years old to me. He he looks. Seventy seventeen eighteen he looks almost like a grown man. You know when you picture freshmen in high school, you don't see typically, don't think to see somebody six foot tall, one hundred and seventy five pounds. So he's a he's, a tall, big kid. Let's talk about these attacks that took place in september and october of nineteen. Seventy nine now bill received some threatening notes at school. It's reported that he received three to four notes that were found in his locker. These were given two detectives. Eventually, some of these were typed. Some were written in some were cut from pieces of magazines, now bills best friend in his girlfriend

so received a note in their lockers. These notes were typed in red ink. One saying that blood will spill. Another saying it's it bill has three months left, so please p s make the best of it, though. The note that said the bill had three months left is the note that was delivered to his girlfriends law. while it seems like somebody has way too much time on their hands. The other thing captain there is one note that was found at west linn high school after bill's death. That says you are next signed with a red s. This is according to bill. Co means parents, but I also want to state that the on allowances, there is another. No that was delivered after his death. That says you are next week don't know if it was delivered after his death, it was found at the high school after his death. Now the tricky thing here is: oh, I wasn't delivered to anybody's. That's what I'm trying to get it. I did hear here's where there is a big problem

there's little details about this note, and that is because we have bill combings parents saying that this this note was found after his death at westland high we have the sheriffs deputies who would not discuss this item? Nor would they confirm even having found this right, so we don't even know if it exists. So it's yes, it's in big, big time dispute here whether this this thing was real or not played the bass big time. So I want to talk about These assaults the first took place on a wednesday. This is september fifth, nineteen. Seventy nine at approximately eight thirty p m bill is on his way home from a friend's house. He decides to cut through the woods behind in elementary school and bill is on his bike. He's riding his bike he's on a trail that is about fifty yards behind the school when he is knocked off of his

like by what he would say is two men that were unknown to him and they approached him from behind once they attacked him. They tie a plastic garbage bag over bill's head and wrap a bicycle inner tube around his neck bill, almost blacks out from this attack, but eventually he starts to break free before he can black out when he, when this happens, these two foods that attacked him in the woods took off when bill gets home here, obvious signs of bruising the police are key. regarding the attack the attackers reported, but that the police go to the scene. They find bills bike they find inner tube and they find the bag that was placed over bills head found a note. There saying he was warned was unable to describe the two men that assaulted, ok, so normal you could be I'll, do tell right away the individuals were black or white, so he's not able this

say that I couldn't find any reports where they they say. You know these are white guys. These are african american guys and really there's no description of these people at all. As far as public records go one normally two, it's like he might not be able to tell if the guy is sixteen know, the person contact you. If there were sixteen year older if there, but you can normally you don't break it down, go while they're in their twenties or thirty. That's one of the frustrating one of the many frustrating things regarding this case and bill new, and this was afraid to actually still state anything there's a lot of speculation. Regarding that, let's talk about the attack place on Monday october, twenty second, nineteen, seventy nine- this is the second assault, and you could you could possibly call this. The attempted murder of bill co means this takes place at approximately six thirty

p m a bill is out collecting money. I, like the captain, said he had a newspaper route and he was going door to door to his different customers and he's collecting money now he's not on his bike this evening he's on foot, and he says that at some point, while he's out collecting money, two men who were driving and- order model vehicle. He described this as aqua or turk, turquoise and color to men jumped out of a car and they jumped him from behind they attack cam and then tie a rope around his neck and throw him into some bushes. Billy loses consciousness and he blacked out for about five to six hours once he gains consciousness bill walks home and he arrives around twelve thirty or one a m that morning,

bill has wrote burns on his neck. He has a gash on his face and broken blood vessels on his face as well to you, no obvious signs that this guy was choked and knocked out bill files, a police report into, I was the assailants as to white guys in their late teens early twenties he's also, taken to the hospital. At this time, warehouse injuries are noted. This was probably part of the police report, and so he's too he's attack twice both times. The police investigate a report is fine, and at least one of these occasions he seeks medical attention because of the attack bill would ultimately end up quitting his paper route. I understand why and and just four days, after filing. The report bill is asked to take a polygraph test. Now he has to take this test. This is at the beach

the I office, the ohio BC I office, which is in london, ohio, there's a lot of questions about these two attacks, the the sheriffs department in let's this kind of clear this up a little bit because I said earlier, the new rome police department would more than likely be the ones responding to the missing report of bill from jail beware of nineteen. Eighty new is a tiny, little tiny little area. and they only had part time. Police officers back then gets bigger them We are now, but it is time yet and the best way to describe these police officers picture boy scouts in cop cars is pretty much in the way. I would describe the numerous new room police department their part time, They really only issue traffic tickets, they really investigate any type of crime. Later, and I dont know that only a new room, cop listening right now matters how well.

there can't be because new rome no longer exist at some point. It was absorbed by prairie townshend, because any there there you go, but if they had type of major crime or an assault, or anything like this. This is within free glenn, county or high, or so eventually, the sheriffs department would be called in to investigate these different things, not the boy scouts that were issuing traffic tickets on west broad street yeah. I'm sure I got a tick from than before. I definitely received one in one thing I remember as they they told me, I had to pay in cash in person. In my take. It was for not having being o able to provide proof of insurance was pulled over four who knows what, but that ends. The ticket. I didn't, have my insurance card on me at the date that I was pulled over now in columbus in a most cities. You can just go to the court and prove that you had inch at the time you were pulled over in theirs than they take away the ticket,

situation with new rome was, I showed up. Unlike look, I eras, my proof of insurance. They, like we don't care that you have insurance, you were pulled over not having proof of it. You need to pay that ticket and paid in cash I can't remember what I paid, but here's what I do remember part of the reason why new rome no longer exist is they were writing all these tickets telling people they had to pay in cash and then they they? The government doesn't believe that new, Roma's reporting all of these tickets being paid even issued their basically pocketing the money so Many women on to me many any good reasons why new rome is no longer around. But let's, let's go through this real quick captain, so we have a dead fourteen year old boy, bill. Co means he's found face down in a snowy ditch. His scarf, is tat tied tightly around his neck death by strangulation exactly and

We also find out that on two previous occasions, this same young man has been attacked by what he described as two men who attacked in both times trying to choke him to death, yeah first time trying to put a bag over his head and then tie the bag, you know tight with other time. Bomb trend is struggling with a rope where he black south, for five to six hours yeah would today report him missing that day. There's so here is a big problem with this case his parents are no longer around they, they both passed away, live to, be you know, in old age, sister and brother are still around. He had two brothers I dont know about, oldest brother, but his sister and brother to this day are very active in the case, keeping this case alive, searching for answers good for them exactly, but, however his they young. At this time his sister was only nine, his brow

was a few years older than him. They are a little therein. fuzzy about the details of some of these things. There has also been a lot of people that have kind of come out of the woodwork saying. Well, if my son was act on two separate occasions. I would have moved I what mortgage, my home in europe, move to another neighborhood and fare? You would have okay, let's, let's not fault these parents. I don't find any fault in what the parents did or did not do, know. Okay, let's be clear about this: the two times He was attacked both times it was reported to the police. That's what you're supposed to do at least one of those occasions bill received medical attention, if not on both occasions, So I dont know what more you expect of parents to do you? U report these things to the police in and then you know, you hoped that the police are out doing their job.

don't you have a problem with the police's. The the victim is unable to describe these guys, the best description that they get out of. Two attacks is the only was awkward turquoise car. With some white dude that may have been in there lay teens or early twenty here, but it concerns. Are you all in bill. I'm in I again, I think, there's price some reason that he didn't want to come forward with some information, but by gathers ways to toughen up your kids. To I mean you, could you could send bill to the culprit guide told yeah, but it's also I'm not following bill. What I'm saying is there is good he may not have. He couldn't provide a better egyptian, because he didn't know who these guys were. He was attacked you about on the show several times what happens when you're knocked out? You might not remember things that happened leading up to being knocked out. I dont know what happens when someone choked out or strangled like that to the point of losing losing consciousness that they might

not be clear about what happened to them. It's pretty easy, then, when you come to to be pulling the inner tube off of your neck in the back of your head and realize That's how you were choked or strangled. There is so much more to get into in this case, just heating up we'll get right back to this right after the quick birthday, What oh fresh, you get farm fresh proportion, ingredients in seasonal recipes, delivered right to your doorstep, skip trip to the grocery store and count on hello, fresh to make home cooking, easy, fun and affordable. That's why it's america's number one meal kit flavour, is in full Luke hello, fresh, enjoy the tea of spring was chef. Crafted recipe, featuring ripe, seasonal ingredients, delivered right to your door. Elbow fresh. Does me than just delicious dinners, not only

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Our brain, cheers: mates cheers full on me: Full on cheers nights: okay, so let's jump right back into this captain cause this thing. Is this thing's pretty big? I think, let's taken into account that the sheriffs department there currently investigating the bill has been attacked on two separate occasions. This is before he's found, murdered or found. dead at the end of that dead and street, they were also investigating the letters that these notes that bill received at at school They were investigating all this before he's found dead at the the end of that street. Now after his death, the franklin county shares department, the detectives thereon record so eating quote that we are interviewing persons close to bill.

Reason being is at this time there are still struggling to determine if they were dealing with a homicide or potential suicide, so for the first part of their investigation they interview just about, if not everyone that would have no bill. They interviewed his family, his friends in school officials and they stay. They said quote persons interviewed described bill as a perfect student, a perfect child, a pervert. citizen? So I really firmly believe that they could come up with no appeal reason for his death whatsoever, even though they couldn't decide. If this is a homicide or suicide There is no reason for this fourteen year old boy to be dead, and I believe that that is why did they waited so long to have the coroner release his report on ITALY were ruling the situation, a homicide, more evidence is gonna, men back in the idea that this is a homicide and not a suicide, because his neighbours are gonna start getting threatening letters. This is a crime

easy thing captain, because on July, twenty first of nineteen eighty neighbours on people, drive, start receiving, threatening letters or notes we say maple drive. This is the same street that bill and his family lived on its reported that thirteen. possibly nineteen notes of these threatening letters or notes were received by eight different family is all very near. The co means home. Some families received identical, no it's on the same day, some notes were mailed. Some were delivered in person at night notes were found on porches and on cars. So up until september of nineteen eighty, these notes were mailed, but the first note that was delivered in person at night was discovered. On september, ninth nineteen eighty police were looking at the handwriting on these notes. The handwriting is described in two ways to very different ways: one being crudely printed

and there's also notes that are neatly pencilled on pieces of cut out envelopes. These notes are submitted for analysis, which reveals that the letters were all written by the same person, even though some crudely and some neatly right, but where these letters connected to the original letters let's go through that, because there is some wording of these notes that would make you believe that they could be connected and keep in mind he's worse bill. Cummings is saving these threatening letters and then he's killed most of these Letters are brief. There simply just three or four words on a lot of the notes. The messages that were, Port. It in the newspaper at the time were as follows: parents should guard their children carefully. This one is signed, acts the next snow

as time is short now. I want to note here that seven different girls and women in the neighbourhood which the ages range from seven all the way up to fifty received these letters addressed to their name some of the other note said all have been warned. One said death in october. One said you are next and the other one said it's time. This one was left the night before halloween this. Of course, you know just some of the notes received because they didn't report all them to the newspapers police say that they did believe that the letter writer could possibly be the bit the killer of bill. Co means on november. Second, law enforcement took the notes to syracuse for a psychological profile of the letter

wider. Here's, where thing off that's gonna, difficult to when the letters were so short, yeah. Well, here's the difficult thing to, because in december of nineteen eighty they arrest somebody for right, these letters of fifty four year old woman who lives on maple drive was arrested for writing threatening letter. She broke all of them, so how did they crept catch? This crazy old bat? Well, remember they did the psychological profile and david not said this in the papers, but here's what I Leave I believe that what they came up within the psychological profile is that probably one of the persons that have received letters are received. The notes themselves was the author of all of these notes, so what they end up doing is they go back and everybody that received a no? They ask them to submit a handwriting sample, so they can compare it to the notes. Fountain clever,

so fifty four year old. This is alien, Eileen tope. She decides she's, not going to submit handwriting sample to the police, so they get a search warrant and they go to where she works, and they take items from her desk. Basically making you know collecting handwriting samples on their own without her help, they determine the she wrote these letters based off of items that they found in desk in the letters probably smelled like cats. Well, ailing hope was a state employee. She worked for the ohio department of taxation. She lived with her husband, who was a retired male carrier, is willard top fifty six. He probably have him deliver the letters they had for adults at this time when she's arrested, one daughter and three sons ranging in age from twenty two to thirty. I believe the daughter was the youngest of their children.

They lived in their house on maple drive for seven years. They knew the co means, and actually MRS Combien describes ailing tope as a friend, and so then, why is she writing these these letters, because she's not really a friend, I'm guessing, this is. This is after the fact that, once its discover that she was the rider the mother states bill, combings, mom states, you know was once a friend now she somebody I don't even want to see ever again They raised now the way that the way that bill sister Kathleen describes the neighborhood The tops would have lived not directly across the street from them, but across the street in a house over rain, so they lived very close to the co means little more background on aliens tobe, she she where she wrote the letters before the letter are showing up. This is back and nineteen. Seventy three and seventy four

He had several nervous breakdowns, after, after being, caught, as the letter writer she was diagnosed is having dual personalities. She spent three weeks in a hospital and then got all better she was or her family was one of the first people to receive these threatening notes they took the notes were delivered between July twenty first and october thirty first of nineteen eighty she's caught for this in december of nineteen. Eighty six. She even participated in the investigation in the sense that she spoke with police on several occasions, and she also talked to the newspapers. And when the people in the neighborhood were receiving these notes, she told the columbus dispatch that this is some kind of sick joke or somebody is ready to go off the deep and that's what she's quoted as in the papers the police she was receiving threatening phone calls and prowlers world. King around her home at night and attempted break ins to their home.

I wonder, if maybe with that mental issues shoes dionne with if this, because bill was murdered, maybe this triggered something side her in and again maybe she was friends but the family and that that was a bigger trigger and therefore than she became mentally unhindered because of this murder. So, but it's sad the west. Now law enforcement would end of proving that all the phone calls to police the the comments or the suspected, prowlers or attempted break ins to their home. They were all false. Claims are right. So what does he get charged with? Will she gets charged with writing the threatening letters? This, I guess, is a misdemeanor and she please no contest. This am receives a fine of fifty dollars. She fainted during the court proceedings and like just like should night. Yes, he is

he has a problem going to court and the here's. The weird thing, though, captain in as if it's not weird, can get much weirder. So I've read newspaper articles that came out in december of nineteen eighty and her husband is interviewed with her regarding her arrest. He seems to be in her court. He has her back like we said she probably has. Some mental issues going on the thing is She offers no explanation as to why she wrote any of these letters. Eventually, law enforcement would say that she did not write the letters that bill combings received before his death and stated that she is not a suspect bill, combings martyr. The letters that were received were received that people's houses or on the street, the the letters that bill received were at the school in september of nineteen eighty one,

over a year and a half goes by and after announcing the menacing letter, writer was not a suspect in what the coroner called a very bizarre case and So I top was not considered a suspect in the threatening letters billet received before his death. The police still had named no suspects. and find a motive for the murder of bill. Co means, but now in nineteen eighty one their re examining the case and talking to the press once again, this time advance it there's a there's, a theory that starts to come out a year and a half after the death of bill combings, and this is that he possibly died of an accidental suicide by way of otto erotic ex law longed K law. fortunately claims that the investigation is ongoing. At this time, however, we have detected detective stating publicly the data the bill. Combings was murdered. The coroner at this time still has not

changed his ruling of homicide. The deputy coroner claims, the ruling of homicide, was given to keep the case open that long for. were they were having trouble believing the stories regarding the first to attacks on bill com things and they are now telling the newspapers a bill. Co means responses to the lie: detector tests that they asked him to take before his death showed signs of quote significant attempt to deceive. Ok, cobblestones gone on here, first ball auto erotic asphyxiation right. So this is where either during sex, I guess or during self sex. Okay, I can't believe we're talking about this, but you'd be choking yourself and be unable to help. You know you climax, okay right, so that's what they're stating that I believe it's a possibility that he was choking himself with his scarf

and then beaten off by the train tracks are well let's get into. This is the time where we have to get into all this speculation, because it's obvious that law enforcement- they don't seem to have a good idea. I think, on whether he murdered or whether this was an accidental death was simple: was his pants found down around his ankles or or words his pants on I'm gone, to go off of what bob has said. Bob is bills older brother. He was one of the people that found bill face down in that ditch that night, he states that, as far as his memory goes, the bills clothing didn't seem abnormal and a further bore the families belief that he was murdered is okay. So this is a cold night. There were some,

on the ground bills wearing a winter co he's wearing pants, long, pants, he's wearing big thick gloves and a scarf a scarf his own scarf. That is tied tightly round his neck. It probably caused this cardiac arrest city, Then there is no sign of there's no sign of a struggle, but there's so no sign of what you were just talking about the year self sex you it's not just discussing sigh so as an appropriate, but yes bill. You know bob these or bob statements. Many years later, one sad one of the saddest things about this is I've. I've read bob stories and em. You know just the fact that he and his father basically took turns performing cpr on bill, trying to revive him. Bob states that the bill head volume

because of the the strangulation and that for many many years bob could still taste that in his own mouth, from having performed this, the cpr but there's all kinds, there's so much things there. So many things to discuss Ok, let's, why think this whole idea of otto erotica fixation. Theory is to me this irresponsible. Well, in in one thing that that would have your back on. That is that a lot of people argue that the size of the gloves he wore would have been that you wouldn't. been to tie your shoelaces with these big thick gloves on that he wouldn't have been able to tie this garth around his own neck. I have so many questions about this case and this is one of these fascinating cases that you dive into and you could go

a million different directions with it. The first. The first question I have is theirs. There's some question as to win bill still in life started receiving these threatening letters. These threatening, What was it before the first time he was attacked, or was it after the first time he was attacked. He was attacked on september, fifth of eighteen, seventy nine and the reason why bring that up, because that's a wins day that would have been the wednesday after labour day now back the day and you'll. Remember this, and I know that school school years changed throughout the years that a lot of kids start school early august or mid august nowadays. But back when we were kids, we would typically start school the week before labour day and I used to love that because they would kind of ease you into the school year, because you would typically start on that wednesday before labour day. So you would go to

for three days, you would have a three day week and you would go back to school for four days before you went to your first full week of school, which is weak three so I have to believe I'm just going off of numbers here that bill probably started receive. these threatening letters after the first attack, and I only say that because I believe that We found them in his locker and his friends finding I'm in their lockers. Then these letters would have been delivered by somebody that had access to that school. This would be an upper class manner, a teacher somebody already in the school now leading up to the first, attack bill. Would have only been in school for what five days five schooldays before the first attack and I do have confirmation that did that school year is correct. His sister,

Would say years later when question about the whole incident that back then we started school the week before labour day, so he would have been a school very long before before being attacked right, which makes some sense, because young people get back from summer break and then they're kind of rowdy. So know that makes sense, and I and I believe you know if he was murdered, the the pr the people that they're looking for the suspects are going to be a members of that highschool. There were some reports that bill my been bullied by some upper classmen now, no one could give really specific incidents of him being attacked or being picked on ads other than there were a couple people that said on more than. on occasion, during choir practice, you know, while here acquire there were several upper class mend, it seemed. go to the choir room and kind of stare down some of the kids in the choir yet again, well being one of them right, because when you get

I call you know my have like freshmen english class or whose and freshmen english class freshmen right. You have sought more math class or what There's those classes that have an overlap, so cool european one or like jazz ban even Jim class, sometimes would have overlapped right, so this would give bill the opportunity to be in contact with some of these upper classmen you're exactly right ok. So let's talk about these notes and let's talk about the things going on at school, regarding the notes that he received before his death. These are items that are held somewhere in evidence, locker and the franklin county sheriffs department these. Are these are notes that his remaining family members are a little and they are of and they're not actually certain that they ve seen these notes. So catholic, and bob who are active in this investigation are

really able to clueless an as to what these notes are. We have some vague descriptions of these notes. like, I said some of them were written somewhere, typed and so were letters and words cut out of magazines and newspapers. The sheriff parliament does not comment on these letters other than state that they were investigating if bill was the actual author of these letters, and I say that because remember the polygraph tested they gave bill did they requested of him once they saw signs that he might have been deceptive during those polygraph test That's probably why they're starting to look at him being a possible author of these notes, one Question I have regarding those notes are which ones were written, which ones were type and which ones were cut out a magazines and received by who you know, if all the hand, written letters were in notes were received by bill and the type to one

and the ones that are cut out of newspapers and magazines were received by his best friend in his girlfriend. I would really wonder if bill actually authored those those notes yeah, because one of the theories that you know gets me, as you know, as far as the the auto erotic of fixation theory doesn't make a lot of sense to me but a possible like maybe it was suicide and the sense of bomb you know whatever is going on in my head. I'm going to go, take a walk and I got the scarf and if I tie it really tight and cut off my airway that arm- and I throw these gloves on that once it gets difficult to breathe that maybe I won't be able to take off the scar.

hmm that that would be my idea and so, but then what, if cause like what the coroner said is, was really the heart attack because of the so what if he tied the scarf super tight, he can't breathe. He has these gloves on before it gets to the point where he would probably struggle to save himself. You know he passes out and so that that is a possibility and, like you said it, He's right in these letters, then maybe this writing these letters are talking about these attacks that maybe never happen as a way to get attention yeah or to cover up some kind of thing that he was doing on his own- I actually I don't think by, that they be aiming to toss now as a overall blanket idea. I'll get into that bit here, because I dont think that suicide is the right word for any of this. I think that what we do

with here, is either a homicide or an accidental death, not a suicide there is one report that one of the teachers at bills- high school at west, on high school, told law enforcement that at one point bill, had asked that teacher how to pass out how to make yourself pass out. I couldn't I dont know how credible this is. This is something that I found on a website somewhere it and find it in a newspaper I could find any other reports of this actually being a real thing. Ok, but what I'm getting at here is that possibly could have happened. He could have asked somebody there or could have had these weird conversations, maybe with some of his friends now calf and Bob. They don't believe that a good number of his friends were interviewed about this. You know we have law enforcement stating that you know we talk to everybody- that new bill

and they say that a lot of his friends warrant spoken too by the police. I dont know what image is nation they could offer, but here's here where I have a problem with this being a homicide. The first thing is that the parents state the bill would have not left the home without telling them where he was going, and I believe this I believe this, because everybody that's been in the newspaper anybody that new bill has always said he was extremely close with his family and his parents and he was also a very responsible kid? You know we talked about him being a good student

in talking about him having a paper ral. So I believe this. So their statement to the shares department is this has to be a murder because he would not have committed suicide and bill would have had to have been abducted from either their front porch or from their front yard, because he wouldn't have left on his own right, but there's a few problems. I have with this, the one being that that these homes or close together, their small homes, their small lots this this area, when I lived there fifteen years ago, was a very quiet area at nine o clock at night, especially during the week. If bill was abducted, you would think that somebody would have heard something that there might have been a struggle bill, six foot tall, a hundred and seventy five pounds I've. I feel his fathers in the garage with the door

in working on the car. It almost seems to me like he was abducted. All bill would have had to do especially after having been you know in tooth situations like this before all being in fear only what I had to do. A shout out or yellow scream and his father would have heard him or neighbour would have heard him. So I have a problem with the families thought that he was abducted and then later found strangled to death, and I'm going back to the first two attacks as part of this problem, one being the night tat. He was coming home from his friends house where he was attacked in the woods and somebody places bag over his head in an inner tube around his neck to choke him out. I have a problem with the inner too. That seems like a strange thing for attacker to bring to an area in the woods maybe lying there waiting for somebody I mean. How would you know that the letters to me if bills,

leaving threatening letters, it almost seems like bill is targeted. Maybe he was too after this first attack I dont know, but having the inner there seems like a strange thing. It doesn't seem like a strange thing to me, was but he being on a bike bill- might had an inner tube. You know a lot of people will bring in inner too with them in case they get a flat tire somewhere. They can change the tire themselves and ride home while right so you're saying that possibly he's playing like the blackout game. yes or something of that nature that he was getting some kind of high or or maybe this was something Hot to him by a friend is pretty common, actually I'd, say: probably every generation that people go through this period of either the lock out game or the vein in game speed dreaming it there's a bunch of different names for so, let's go back to the first attack. I've looked at where that school, in the woods behind the school are located, and I know where his friends house was- and I know where his homework super- the woods was

we out of his way and that he did not need to go through the woods to get home first of all, second of all, it was not a shorter rout. You know, like kids, often would take short around cut through people Jordan's cut through the woods. I get that yeah, but it would have been faster for him to take the the roads from his friends home to his house. It was completely out of the way yeah, but maybe this preferred it. I get that I get that, but it seems strange. and then second of all, we have the second attack he's out on his own and he's unaccounted for four five to six hours. That seems strange to me too. Have so many so many issues with with this case, claiming that you are attacked wire, collecting money for your paper out, might give you I don't have a paper out anymore and on now of these occasions? Was he robbed and on the two occasions that he comes? from these attacks, there's nothing or his clothes to indicate any type of struggle, other

the bruising on his neck. In that this, this poor kid was had passed out or was unconscious for some period of thai rate. But how do you explain these marks? Could he could have choked himself he could have blacked out himself. No, no! That's all I'm saying, but I'm saying they say you're trying to play the blackout game you're, just curious rain. Maybe you played the black a game with buddies and you're, like you know what that was kind of weird, weird feeling. I kind of want to experience that again I mean again he's a fourteen year old boy. I mean the we do some dumb, you know, so he said their knees like ok. I want to try this by myself than he goes home they're like what the hell's on your neck and then well, what happened was I was tact and, that's why I was happening and then what did was wall make up these notes, given if I make up these notes than that covers my tracks even more yeah. The first attack is weird because the police do

oh, that spot in the woods and they find the bicycle they find the inner tube and they find the bag. Everything that bill said would be there was there Why would he leave as bike? Maybe he came to an end panicked and in freaked out and just went home on foot. And, like you said now, he's at home he's got it he's got to explain for his whereabouts. He's got explain why he doesn't have his bike now. We also have situation? Where he's coming home from his paper out he's unaccounted for four five or six hours, he comes home and he looks like he's been attacked. As far as the choking goes and now he's got explained to his parents why they have to take him to the hospital. I just don't see. Any sign of abduction or struggle or attack other than this choking thing? The rumours of abduction really kind of king after and then we have the volume. Why their volume in his system- that strange to me too, but I dont think that any

would have made him or forced him to take volume and then kill him, doesn't make any sense to me. I he he would have died or been close to death pretty quickly after having been quote unquote abducted from his front yard. I don't know how much time it would take volume to get into a system, but I think this is something that he took on his own. I wouldn't be prized. If this was something that was We could find no reason that it was prescribed to him, but we're talking about nineteen, seventy, nine and nineteen eighty? Is there a possibility that, when he was seeking medical attention for the second attack that a doctor, he received a shot that night? According to his sister? Is there a chance that a doctor said no one here, some of these here, some of these pills and when you're feel and weird bill or not feel good about things. You can take one of these and I hope you relax. So there is a possibility he could have received those from an act doctor or hospital, but not actually have been prescribed the medicine we don't have.

Of bills, parents around anymore to verify how he would have received that volume, nor I find anything from his parents discussing the. Whom in the newspapers at the time when you are tommy earlier about it and are as important about the second attack yeah did the one thing about the second attack. Remember he states that he was chill from behind with a rope these two white duty, teenagers early twenties. They jump out of this car. They jump him and the way that he makes this This sound in the way that it sounds in the newspaper is it he was along. His newspaper wrote. These are homesick. together that he was attacked their and basically choked and left for dead thrown into some bushes or underneath the tree I wonder you know if we could get a better, a better report of that actual attack because had he been abducted and taken elsewhere, that would make more sense to me because I cannot believe that in this neighborhood he did that a boy that a fourteen year old boy

lie there lifeless almost four five and a half six hours on the side of a sidewalk or in somebody's front order, side, yard and nobody disk, some during this five and a half six, our time period in he eventually wakes up and walks himself home one. I think your theory makes a lot of sense. I would this argue that there was items found with bills body and the ear they were able to pull dna off these items yeah. Ok, so there's the items found with him. There's there's one item in particular that the family points two and this was a knife, was found in area where bill was found and their thought is it's possible that this knife was used to abduct bill why he was silent during the adapt abduction and that whoever killed bill

would have thrown him there into the ditch and then discarded of the knife of it before leaving the scene when there's possibly dna on the scarf as well correct. So I I've I've seen several reports that in late two and thirteen and early two thousand and fourteen they were going to test these I'd that as early as two thousand, I believe, two thousand twelve ok, I've heard conflicting results on these test. I've heard some reports that the items still to this day I have never been tested. That's the main rumour that I here as well and then the other rumor is that these items were tested and they were able to come up with any new leads based off of their findings on these items. I wonder, where's the knife goes: let's described this knife, it was described by kathleen his bill sister as basically a knife that you would find in some. Kitchen it had a wooden handle. It was

I did knife. Did the family recognised to be from their home also could simply just be trash. Was along the the railroad tracks he was found pino? There were beer bottles in the area. There were car parts possible that this just be trash, while on one of the other rumors about the dna is that there was not enough to sample that they have this destroyed in it's funny to me because think about how many cases that we cover and we learn week by week, we learn something and what did we learn last week? Was it pcr? Yes, yeah they're here how you're reading about this case- and I go what we don't have enough dna evidence to to test. It were afraid war can emanate it and then your weight but pcr like basically photocopier so Why are we implementing this in this case? And if it's about money, I think that

maybe not the knife because, like you said it's a very possible farragut possibility that this knife was thrown out as trash artists. Left there. You know some kids were playing with our moms kitchen knife and disposal gods leave it here, littering that'll do That's what it comes down to a bunch of letters. Pick up your pick up your trash, you pizza, trash No sir, I agree with you there that there's no items there that to me or sketchy, but I think the thing here is if we in pull dna evidence off of his neck, his scarf anything that they could get. That was connected to him, not on those surroundings, but connected to him. They're able to Tessa if they're not, but they are able to duplicate with pcr, then do that

and then test it now. Is there somebody else's dna other than bills right it's just bills, then your theory makes the most sense, but if there's somebody else's it the suspect or the you know, or the killers, not the suspects, the killers went to his high school. He knew them through high. But there were upper classmates. The thing that I lean towards your theory about is: why would you, when you went to pick on an individual wanting a punch him hold him down, do something I mean it seems like strangling the individual is not the first thing you would do when attacks king somebody or possibly that you'd strangled them with your hand. You know you be an official fighter, or or maybe they're name, even fighting back, but you'd, strangle with your hand before you would use a bag with a minnow attire too

and if they have the tyre tube to can we help what kind of tyre too did did bill have, you know so I don't know I mean it leans, that way the right the only reason, while in the that way, the I would assume that if some is boiling amp that there would be a punch or something thrown first bill would have a black eye. You know not just marks around his neck year in ok, let's I'm gonna go back to the dna. Real quick before we get before I get into the bullying but the dna that work that you're talking about it was found on his scarf was report as bodily some kind of bodily fluid right had been the puke. That's what I'm in it. We ought. We now know that the bill vomited at some point- and it very well- could have been bill bills vomit on that that scarf though I question a question that and I'm like, like you, said, let's test stuff and if its bills we move on from this thing. What's your response? well here is that I really

feel that were thirty some years later and I think there's enough to question if this is a home, site or not. I would love for law enforcement to come out and say definitively one way. or the other It remains technically a homicide, because it's on the books as such as what his sister believes it is and so does bob and is- and I believe his family always believed that he was killed in that he was murdered. I dont to go against, family at all. I simply just want answers exactly like they do regard the bullying you mentioned something you know that this would have had been upper classmen, Ike with you, one hundred percent, on that the other thing is if these people were not just they weren't, just upper classmen if it were if he was in fact martyred. It one does somebody that had access to a school that attended his school. This was also somebody that fit into that neighbourhood that didn't seem out of place in that neighbourhood

there's nobody other than bill on three separate attacks to say: hey. I saw this guy These guys. Are these group of people driving around in this awkward colored, older car that that he said was probably afford falcon or something that looked like a ford? do yourself, a favor google on older model. Awkward ford falcon debt is not that could not have been a common or back in nineteen seventy nine nineteen. Eighty, not the pictures that I saw. This is a car that, in my opinion, would have stood out This is a car, my opinion that had they gone to the school, they probably could have asked about fifty people and said you know who as one of those so and so drives wanted this year It would have been an easy thing to come up with. The other thing regarding the bullying is: interviewing his girlfriend and in his friend that receive these threatening notes as well. Captain, don't you believe. You know both of us. You know in a high school setting,

Don't you believe that if you receive some kind of threatening note, you might have some clue who put that in your locker yeah yeah. I think so, but work or at least out of the three of you, you might have some speculation as to who did it yeah? I think you know, I think you could come up with somebody. also and so doesn't like me or so, and so mad that I'm dating this girl or so and so, what's like my buddy restarted a fight with my buddy, I think you would have a small list of people that would be likely suspects in the notes themselves, Why are but also take back what I was saying before you know, when I'm saying the bullies would probably punch him in the face, if you think about stuff like I'm. Ah, what's that show dazed and confused? You know the these upperclassmen, which compare the car all they're doing is holding down individual and then spanking them. I said that only

one at what I mean by that that's a horrible thing to do to any bay boy wyoming. Only by that is they're, not punching them right to get the so this could have been to some sick, They are there doing like a form of hazing all about right, but this could be some kind of sick form of hazing and so yeah these these two individuals for what a reason pick bill, and then they go after him, grab him and then they d try this round his head and then will will run off better, but the threatening letters that note the notes that he's getting don't sound like some. And of taunting as towards hazing, you know I get. You are next year. That sounds like. Oh, you know, member. We choked at one kid we're going to work you and our little hazing, weird hazing thing that we do, but one of the notes as blood will spill. That sounds like murder. That sounds like some kind of severe attack, the other one state. something like bill. Has three months left

spend them wisely or something like that. You know this again, like I said, there's so many things that you brought up. That, I think, are super valid points and then the other side of me goes but the people that were closer to this case than mere mean you could, you know ever be as his siblings and for them to come out and say: look this. Doesn't you know it's a fourteen year old boy that you know? Maybe we have had this weird phase for awhile, where he was making himself pass out? That's a very good possibility. There is a good possibility that he was just being harassed by somebody on that these individuals, for whatever reason, maybe it started out as a haze and there all while this. You know this actually went too far. Now guy get rid of him at its that's a good possibility to, and I, but I think you know what I know, what his sisters doing as she has a facebook page. They posted a lot of information about that school

now what's great about like webs luther's, as they can actually go online and pull up the yearbook for westland, high school and western high school in Columbus, ohio and and look through and looked through, these pages and and if he was murdered to me under percent. I believe you did fine those those individuals in that book. Well, I think a big problem with this case is alien tobe the one who started writing these other letters that were not connected to anything. I think that I think that the police probably had their suspicions as to whether This was an actual homicide or not. I think one that once those letters started while there was a big air and that neighbourhood by people receiving these letters and even by people that warrant receiving these nay these letters, and so Police had a job. They had a duty to that community to go in there and

and whose writing these letters, because everybody in the neighborhood immediately thinks these are coming from. Whoever killed poor bill comments and I, once they were already confused about their own, investigation. They get involved this letter. Writing investigation and I think the police for a long time for those few months of those letters are being received. I think they thought that if they could find the, author of those letters that they would find the killer of bill and win then that didn't work out when that turned out not to be bills killer. I think maybe they were back to. Their original thought of this might not be a homicide. And what I mean where I think a big an eruption is ailing topaz. I think that those months would have been better spent. They defiling. They definitely did a lot of work on this case. They did a lot of work, trying to figure out who that letter writer was wild, Could I spent those hours in those days going back in the clearing up within a year within months of his death, determining the action

cause of death in in maybe getting it right one I wish in other more than one polygraph test yet because I know how much that proves. I mean we, I know what I actually don't leave. I don't. I don't look to their polygraph for anything really, because I too, I think, I think, giving a polygraph to afford senor old boy or girl, I think is strange. I think, especially if he was in fact attacked. You could make a child feel like they are guilty of something that they had no had nothing to do with you. Just by putting him in the chair and submitting him to that test he could come off is deceitful, just because now in a situation in a setting where he feels you made him feel like he's done something whirl and I would like, to know tat. Dna was actually tested. If so, I would love to know what the results are. I know people are gonna, send us things that they ve seen, but, like we ve said, we ve heard both sides of the coin, then yes, they have been done nothing.

back or that they have not been done. I worry that the sheriff apartment this many years later believes that its not act a homicide in they might not be technically working the case, if that, if that, in fact, is their stance on I would love for them to say you know what co means family, let's sit down let's review the boxes of evidence that we have let's review this together, because are owed some answers. They are owed some answers in this case and the road closure, even even if it's just law enforcement, now stating yes, we are on your side. We believe this was a homicide or no. We still think that this was an accidental death and I and all the people that right soon, side or even the auto erotic, expiation stuff. I think that's a lie two that's a little irresponsible. I think that this, in my opinion, I lean towards accidental death here and I think, that's the right term,

and I welcome I welcome anybody else's thoughts on it, because there is, I might when I sit down and look at this in captain my opinion changes daily, as to whether he was killed or whether this was an accidental death. Ya again, I think sometimes people throughout the, theories, and they have no evidence to back it up saw in. I think, look I, but I do think, like I said where there's enough information on line, and that may be that the whips luther community could help out in some way the true crime community in some way, possibly could dive into this case low bit and maybe uncover some new leads. That's the hope of his sister. The other thing to is Well, like we said our yeah, what we kind of lean towards, or what kind of makes the most sense was. This was some kind of accidental death. The other thing, too, We do have these letters. Why can't we pulled dna off the letters that were written right so and if its ever is, if it's about funding

What's this simple, you know the the siblings can contact us contact. True crime garage and we'll we'll pull the the true crime community together and we'll get this tested ourselves if it's about financials, so I'm I you know, it'd be great for that community and for the family too some closure on this case, yes- and I truly hope that kathleen and bob bills- brother and sister- receive the ants in the information that they need and deserve his parents deserve that information and in that closures? Well, unfortunately, they did not get it. You can follow. You can actually follow bill. Co means and bill combings family at twitter. So if anybody looking for updates on the case hopefully hopefully are updates. You can do that at bill combings was a really interesting case, one I never heard of till this week and it was a columbus case. Some odd we have recommended reading.

This week. We do this week. We are recommending the Pierre hotel affair. This is a true story of one of the most famous unsolved heist in american history and nineteen. Seventy to some one I should say some ones stole twenty eight million dollars worth of jewels from new york cities, Pierre hotel there. This would make a great movie captain way. A group of men arrived at the hotel, dressed in tuxedos. They very quickly attack the security guards and took hotel staffing, guest hostage when they finally left the hotel. They departed with twenty eight million dollars worth of jewels and they left in limousines. If you would like to, if you like, a good heist, are you like a good who done it check out the Pierre hotel affair, and you can do that by going to true crime, garage dot, com and click on the recommended page, a team neck shirts are about to sell out and

team captain tank tops or about the seller as well, and I don't know when, when the next time will print these, I have a couple of different designs up my sleeve that be rolling out in the next week or so all right, Until next week everybody be good, be kind and don't let her the. Support for this programme comes from arkansas escape to natural state outdoor adventures to indoor attractions in just a few miles or a few minutes near it all. But faraway planted trip at arkansas dotcom.