Welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you were doing, thanks for listening, I'm your host naked with me, as always, is a man who was right the first time when he was wrong. The last time, ladies and gentlemen,

the captain of love and you as wrong. I don't wanna, be right. It's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for town a friend, we are still sitting on this blood orange blonde brew, called hunters harvest from second crossing brew company. If you like, a beer that, if bitter and sweet with some good blood, orange and hints of cornfield, this is for you a dvd four point: seven percent and a beautiful color to this beer as well garage great for and a quarter bottle caps out of five, and let's give some thanks and praise too, good friends were helping us out with this week, show a big we like a job to do the same in interpol, england and last but certainly not least, we have Julie de vecchio rochester minnesota every

If we just mentioned helped us out helped out the garage this week, if you want to help out the garage go to the website and click on the pint, glass or visit our merch page and pick you up, some garage swear, be w the boy. Are you in beer run if you're not on the mailing list than you don't know the special forty five percent off and have you not forms on instagram, facebook or twitter? You all know the code either of you want to save some money on some tc jeez wag makes you follows on social media and make sure you sign up on our mailing list and colonel that's enough of the beast. all right everybody gathered round, grab a chair, gravel beer. Let's talk some true grab

it's been, for thirty years, since eighteen year, old Denise flung disappeared from Connor's ville any anna and nineteen eighty six. She went out to retrieve her purse that she lost the night before and a party- and she never came home. Her vehicle was found. The fall owing day, and we, as we pointed out in episode, one are missing a lot of important statements. One in particular is property owner of where the party was the night before I'm

curious as to why we've never heard- and my guess is maybe the individual or individuals was never questioned, but I'm curious. as to why we ve never heard one simple thing in this case: ask that person who, through the party or the persons it through the party did you see Denise on the day that she went missing. She left her to retrieve her purse, what we don't know after they fight her car the following day, four miles away from where the party was hosted. Did she go miss before she arrived to look for her purse you go missing at the location where she was looking for that purse, or did she say to find it and go. missing in something happened. we're on our way home on, like we said there was over a hundred people at this party, a step that law enforcement, could it

early on in this investigation is come that monday go to high school and start question a lotta end vigils and, I think, would were gathered a lot of information just a couple days after she went missing because there were not notes and documents that were kept during the early stages of this investigation, it gets very hard to determine who was spoken to and who and what statements they gave at that time, We have some suspects here to discuss, even though we have a big lack of evidence. The suspects here are both local and one of interest that is from out of town, but one of the things that seems paramount in this case, or at least has remained so throughout the three decades that Denise has been missing is the local right where's the local rumours in the shorter. The is the

these guys or some guy, I just got away with it, they did something to Denise and they got away with it. Now it's hard to exactly who these guys are from top to bottom The list could be longer than what we're going to present here, but we I have a short list of some very good suspects. At least circumstantial suspects. When we talked about episode won his name. Is sean MC clung shy, mc along is Denise slums, previous boyfriend they buy. cup in early march. Denise goes missing in late march, Other person of interest is benny. Johnson benny and graduated a couple years before Denise and it's my understanding captain stop me if I'm wrong, but really in pointing the location of that party and who the

land owner was or is of that party right was a little difficult, but everything I reviewed. I keep getting since then the property belong to the johnson family, so many jobs in graduates a couple years before Denise he's no to all the locals. All the teenagers in everybody Their early twenties at the time, his father, that in family goes way back their farmers, they own a lot of properties in the area and they lotta properties that surround connor's and yet yes, other property would have been owned by benes. Father been johnson, another person of interest is benny, Johnson's cousin It appears that they were rather close and were regularly together? You yeah, I don't think locals view him. As a suspect on his own, but believe that randy was involved because of

many. So his name is randy cates and again he is benes cousin. Then our third suspect is a man named larry hall now- long time. Listeners of this show may recognize that name and people that watch the apple tv show blackbird well. Most certainly know that name. Larry hall is a suspected serial killer from. wabash indiana, who all around the mid west in these civil war reenactments, he is accused again a suspected serial killer never have, has been convicted of me during any one but is serving life in prison based on kidnapping charge and they ve law enforcement agents that have studied larry movements and studied the cases that they believe that Larry possibly could be connected

to end the numbers reach up into the fifties, which would make him one the most prolific serial killer, and captain. You said something to me, that's very interesting when we took our little break here, everything I say is anna resting. Well, this one went to the top of the list for today anyway. Ok, good that this, I cannot think of another case, you said it. You said to me that we here we have this case where we have three thus backs now keep in mind. It could also be somebody we have. We don't know that did not name that we did not name, but here we have three suspects: there's not evidence to suggest. One is a better suspect than the others, and we

all three of them at some point in its or some form has confessed to killing Denise. Flung three, really good suspects that you could make a arguments and make a brain argument to the table. I go well that's a good argument, but three good suspects all have confessed in some form or fashion. Two of them have confessed to law enforcement, and then we have confessions from benny Johnson. and or randy cates to people that are outside law enforcement. These would be people that no, these two individuals and they are often refer to as drunken confessions. So again we have sought MC clung the ex boyfriend he can says to law enforcement. We then have benny Johnson that has the drunken confessions

His cousin randy has drunken confessions, not that he's the murderer, but that he had some involvement, and then we have a confession by mister hall Spected serial killer, let's start with John mc along the former boyfriend. Now I share A similar opinion with ted mckinley that me be he's easy to move on from again you wanna check is alibis and confirm his alibi before we move on from him, but there's a lot to suggest that it may have been a mutual break up that sean is our living, his best life separately from his ex girlfriend unease, but not it doesn't appear until you later that people become more suspicious of sean and probably rightfully so so, people were concerned that he wasn't look that very good in the early

ages of the investigation and then moves away to arizona I was trying to get an exact date, or at least a week, narrowed down to week of when he moved because, depending on what What you were view. It says later, year, he moved to arizona while it later Your means she missing in march and he didn't move to november that make some sense. But if it was within a couple days or a week of her going missing that would be very suspicious to me. Considering that he's a senior in high school at that time and he still has his pending graduation coming up later that year. My guess hears captain is it he went and moved to arizona after graduating high school. That here. The reason why this becomes important one- obviously it looks like might be running in hiding from something that he did back in corners of ill indiana, but two

So while he is in arizona, well he's not a saint, he breaks the law and in fact he ends up getting charged with what is reported as racking up some domestic violence arrest yeah. So what law enforcement is not obviously privy to is how these individuals will turn out. So when you have new detectives looking at this case, thirty some years later you go well John away so that suspicious that's a red flag annie. He is abusive towards women, so that's a red flag. So then gotta go back and say: ok what he had this alibi and when new detectives look at this case there not able to confirm the alibi. and then on top of that shot, his dane while look. We were friends and was a mutual break up but and when you find out well, Denise wasn't faithful. So I don't know how

how much that seems like a mutual break up there. Some reason that sean would be upset with her and rightfully so I mean they had a relationship and she was unfaithful, but you could see why he would, upset with her. So what he was Tom law enforcement is. Are we were friends and- and everything was fine- that's not the crick story. And then, on top of that, you got another red flag, because she sending letters at the time saying hey. I I made a mistake it and I'm I'm fearful we know this guy is abusive towards women, so very possible. In this three year relationship he had with Denise up possibly was. He was possibly abusive towards her as well I'll, say some things in defence of sean long here before we get into some other things. It might be point more towards his gill and his defense. He doesn't steak

on from connor's will indiana forever. He eventually moves back and in fact I found some reports to indicate tat. He may have bounced between The two locations more than one generally reported a lot of the reports, make it sound like you. Now to arizona state gone for a couple decades and then came back though one report I found indicates that he had residence from time to time in indiana and from time to time in arizona, so he seems to have bound back and forth a little more frequently. So if he was running from something and I'm not saying that he wasn't but was running in attempting to hide from something he didn't stay gone forever. He kept coming back to connor's yen, also insurance, the fence he keeps coming back to canterville in theirs no local rumors that sharon confessed to anybody and the other

thing to. While there might be local suspicion, like the captain said he doesn't seem to have killed, confessed anybody, he also doesn't return collars will because they ve named other suspects or I've had other persons of interest publicly or hot, on a lead of somebody right like the if he left collars real with any stank ahem. Then there's nothing to have removed that before he decides to return now, something that goes ganz sharma clung, however, not something that you can, use in the court of law when quite and by police once he's back encounters will indiana. He does fail, according to their report, that he does fail a voice stress test,

and this is years later yeah they bring him in for questioning and two thousand and eighteen now again in his defense, he's been cooperative with law enforcement. Correct and he fails this stress test and again according to due to the report. The things that really stand out or the things that they want us to know that stand out to them is they believe the questions. The important questions that he failed on were do You know what happened to Denise flop. Do. Did you kill Denise flop? That's where they're saying that their test indicates to them. Their interpretation of the results of that test is that he was not truthful. on those answers ya. I don't know how these tests actually operate or what the tests indicates in the documentary it makes. It seem like

a wavering and their voice, but a lot of people I have a wavering in their voice. If you're asking some eight point directly, did you murder your ex girlfriend, one thing that I thought was rather off putting, and this was something that the documentary did a really good job of. is when the document arians would go out to interview somebody or attempt to interview them for the first time there walking up to them and it's a surprise to the person that they're going to interview and they did a great job of having the camera person. Hang back, hang back a little bit so this person may not know that we're going to be recording that we will at least get to hear their answers when they are first thing age by the document areas now sharma clung answer. Some of their questions he seems to be he's. We,

because he seems stand office in the beginning and then he seems eager to try to Tell them some of the story, or at least the portion of the story that he knows which, according to his words, is he doesn't know what happened to Denise has really know what going on with her leading up to her disappearance I believe even says that when she first turned up missing, he thought there We should just took off or went off with some friends. He said as we weren't hanging out with the same people at the same time, we were hanging out with the same people at that time. In the weeks leading to her disappearance. He didn't really know what she was doing or what she was up to because they had parted ways. and really truly did go their own separate ways. One thing that I thought was a little weird when he was being stand office with the document arians. He said you know, and this be simply on a frustration or this could be out of guilt, or he's trying to hide something. He says it's been third

two years. I wish people would just let it die now. I've never in question are suspected of anything or local rumour people coming up to me asking me about a missing persons case. Did they I may have been involved in so I dont know what that's like. I say what kind of reaction I would have? Maybe he's just froze? radio, but the whole situation. Why do you keep talking to me? I had nothing to do with this. Why do people keep coming up in talking to me about this? I had nothing to do with it. Maybe he's trying to hide something in his uncomfortable, but by the questioning, probably a little frustrated that they didn't get the answer thirty years ago, because of their would have done their work and done their due diligence thirty years ago they could have possibly cleared him and then he would never been brought up again. The person that has really kept this case alive is detect.

stacy, reese, any see, look she's! Amazing! When you watch the documentary you're gonna go. If it wasn't for her, we will be talking about this case that you know what there would be no movement on this case if it wasn't for the stacey ray while states cerise an an like. We said the the two documents. Arians I'd, be honoured work with any of those individuals. There were just amazing and I can applaud their efforts enough, but then what ends up happening here with John is showing sick and he is arrested on. I believe, fraud, charges, donation, mother Judy writes a letter to Sean and basically says look, your mom was a good person denise your mom, your mouse, probably in Heaven he problem a joiner in Heaven so does tell us

where our daughter is we we, but leave and law enforcement at this time believes you're. It and they do something. That's very surprising, like we said he as these fraught fraud charges and would be charge, obviously with murder, and he is sick. He has died and so the family makes a deal. Look if you can just give us the location of where Denise's body is, and we can find the body we're going to. Let you out of prison you're, going to get off on the fraud charges were not even going charge you with murder, so he makes his deal with police and start talking to please before his lawyer gets, and this last did hail, mary effort by judy flom and her family to say: look we wheedle at this point. All

years later. We don't really care exactly what happened. We are not so concerned about murdered, charges against you? We just want to ring, or god or home. We want to know where she is and have some answers as to what happened and as the captain said, he comes in any. He he's in his jail uniform and he's in the room with the sheriff and he starting to confess. His confession is that she contacts him too. have him go with her to retrieve the purse. This would make some sense with with her activities that we know the things that she was doing that day. He says that they stopped off at the bridge she falls hits her head. He stops often in aggravation and frustration, and when he returned

She's not moving. His push then caused her death. According to this statement, right. He then says that he contacted a couple of friends these names, it's not clear. there. He disclosed these names to law enforcement or purposely left those names out of his confession. I believe he told them and by the law. Enforcement has left that information out of public's eyes, and then he says that the friends were contacted, so they could help him with this situation. Help him dispose of Denise there's a lot of problems with his story, though, because ease his very vague as story is kind of wonky donkey. Many goes out there with her, but it's not clear on

How he got to up a place or where he went to to contact individuals to come, help him and so his immunity is based on two things that one he confesses and says what happened, which he was able to give sheriff looks at him and alliances. Me, and I can tell me that you are the killer, because there could be the real killer out there. Still. And he says now I killed her so then the next thing that he has to give law enforcement his where're her remains. He goes out with them on the first occasion to one the johnson families properties and the sheriffs department says lucky he d. seem confused as soon as we arrive there now mine thirty some years have passed and the

location may look quite different than the last time he was there. He also give some indication to that? It may have been dark during sir The periods of the activities that he's confessing to again. What's crazy, though, is he is so vague in at least the statements that have been released to the public. But he's also very emotional right, like does his emotion. Almost it almost see but for me until then, later. We learn he can't led them to denise his body. Can he not lead them there, but he seems very confused almost like he's like, while I'm gone yeah it's around here, but he's almost like looking for law enforcement to point him in the right direction and they're not able to do that and they're also kind of instructed not to have,

communication with em cause that they don't want to interfere with information that he's giving right. They don't want to appear their recording him when he's out on these. Let's call field trips looking for Denise, they go to multiple properties on different occasions. Looking for her He sounds clueless to me like he's, like, like you, said, hoping the law in force It will point him in the right direction, so he can deliver on his ended the deal and nato on it to later. Look like this was. Standard interrogation or interview of this man. They wanted to be clear that we will roll into We were just letting him talk. We just needed to hear his thoughts. He is supposed to be directing us to where she is. He's not able to do so or multiple occasion now think about this. He has all these reasons to confess, and all these reasons to try to fine

where her remains would be. He's gonna get off on fraud, charges he's gonna, get away with murder, he's gonna be set free. Yes, he is towards the end of his life. He's withering away. Also going to receive twenty five thousand dollars that you can pass on to his kids because he confessed as all these reasons to confess that benefit him. So I dont look This guy is like all while he he just had a change of heart and he just wants to give people. The answer he's doing this, for so many selfish reasons and and then the reason why I dont believe him is because he's not to give them the information that would set him free. He wants to be set free. He wants to not have these charges against him. He wants this money to give to his family and he's not able to by information. What ends up happening here is a very weird sequence of events. He confessed. The martyr

he tells them higgins led them to her body. He fails to do so. He fails to give great details of the murder itself. He therefore does not deliver on his ended the deal so law enforcement says we give you what we promised here either and, in fact, we're going to give you immunity a fact: we're not going to give you the two twenty five thousand dollars in fact we're. let you out of jail on these other charges. What we're going to instead is charged with involuntary manslaughter, because now we have your confession. We just We have a whole lot of evidence to back it up their hoping that this confession He made on tape, which is completely you know, he's not he's not being physically or verbally pressured at the time of giving this confession. Only pressure on him is to make this deal and

they say we're going to charge you with involuntary manslaughter and they go out and arrest him later than this. It some time between these events due to take place by his stone prison on the fraud short, is but an they arrest him for involuntary manslaughter now before he could be taken to court on these jobs. Is. He passes away, as the captain pointed out, sean weeklong was was ill at that I'm in I'll read some brief statements from from a very good article on the matter. This is on September twenty six. Twenty twenty sean MC clung age. Fifty six of connor's will Indiana died from complications within undisclosed illness, On July nine, twenty twenty, the fate county prosecuting attorney's office, charge sean with vote. Terry manslaughter as a class be felony after he allegedly confessed to killing Denise more than thirty years ago, my lungs allege can fashion has made many headlines but the

all circumstances and motivation surrounding the quote: confession have not been disclosed, Now, as the captain pointed out, Sean clung a dying man. He was indeed on two pending cases unrelated to Denise's disappearance. He was unable opposed bail His attorney comes forward in says, look Michael, told me in his die days. I did not kill Denise. I only said that I did that, because I was hoping to not spend my last few days on this earth in jail, and I was hoping to give my children, the twenty five thousand dollar reward that they were offering me. I was hoping to leave, something to my kids and his attorney says he was. Have stated when they turn around and charged him with it. I happened to believe and captain Kirk me if you think I'm wrong here, but I think she on, may have thought there

someone in law enforcement new more about the case than he did the deadly and what parts he couldn't confess to. They would fill in some of the blanks and maybe together, using local rumour and what the police new. Maybe they could see bull upon a body or maybe they would take their portion. The table if they just got him to confess right, and so jurisdictions in front of some officers, it's good enough to just close out the case not actually solve it so where We were really come down hard on him yesterday for the latter of effort in this investigation, we should point out that They had the easy way out here and they didn't take it now you could argue, while they were going to charge him with that voluntary manslaughter charge So maybe maybe his death is what sir, Lee removed that from the equation, whether stew

People and law enforcement that believe sean is responsible for the disappearance and murder of Denise, but two things that are really important in this case. Who did it and how do we find her remains and sean wasn't able to provide those two important pieces of information, with master class. You can learn from the world's best minds any time. Me and at your own pace you can learn how to think like a profile or from John douglas, improve your communication, skills from robin roberts or learn poker strategy from Phil ivy, with over twenty five.

Your classes from a range of world class instructors that thing that you ve always wanted to do is closer than you think, sir classes accessible on your phone web or smart tv and each class has broken out into individual video lessons that are usually around ten minutes long. Lessons range from civically, showing you how to execute a technique to an instructors insights about their craft master class classes, provide you with downloadable lesson: re caps and supplemental materials like class guides recipes and more with over one hundred and fifty exclusive classes. taught by the instructors. You know and love. There's a class. For whatever you're interested in I've, in writing. Communication in business classes- if you want to be the best want to grow, you need to learn from the best. That's why I take master class,

I highly recommend you check it out, get unlimited access to every class and as a true crime garage listener, you get fifteen percent. An annual membership go to master class dot com site garage now, that's master class dot com slash garage for fifteen percent off master class figure, What to make for dinner shouldn't be a mystery home chef, Does the meal planning and prep worked? So you can pick your favorite recipes, customize them to your liking than cook them with ease homes, make sure nightly routine easier and more exciting, with a wide selection of delicious meals. That arrive at your doorstep in the form of fresh perfectly pre urgent ingredients and in ease- to follow recipe card with thirty unique and flavorful shit. curated meal options available each week home chef ensures your taste buds will.

Never get bored looking to master the art of cooking check out their classic meal. Since complete with chef ridden step by step. Instructions don't have time to cook. Have a high delicious meal on the table. In a snap with quick solutions like their fifteen minute recipes microwave meals and oven, ready options that save you time and effort in the kitchen homes is making my life easier and more delicious. They have meal kits that fit my needs, their endlessly customizable tonight for dinner, one pot, sausage and chaos pasta with cheese croutons tomorrow, low country style, scallop risotto with corn and bacon. For a limited time. Only go to home chef, dot com, slash garage for seventy five percent off your first box again go home chef, dot com, slash garage for seventy five percent off,

the all right. We are back and cheers maids again what a case. really blew my mind normally when it's a thirty some year old case. I go oh, what can we learn from this? Are we gonna have any movement on this case But we have three really good suspects with three confessions: let's get into suspect number two, yet it's. Benny, Johnson and we've spoke about him a little bit before he graduated a couple of years before the Denise, and it's our belief that it was one of the johnson's properties that was hosting the party the night before Any johnson has been it's been right Lord and it's been stated on camera and stated in written reports, there,

he has admitted to multiple people, not law enforcement, but to multiple persons that he killed. Denise flung now. The problem with these statements is that he's given multiple different stories as to all aspects of the crime how she died, how he dispose of her body, though, how she died: it has changed and different stories were, a body is or how we dispose of the body has has changed, print stories, what led up to them, has changed indifferent stories, he's a guy, it is really difficult to pin down what his actual statements would be and part of that is he lawyers up once the he gets turned on benny Johnson. He gets an attorney now.

I'm not law enforcement. So I'm not going to pretend to know what the best strategy is at this time, given the state of the case in him as a potential suspect, but it looks like as soon as he lawyers up that the sheriffs department takes very hands off approach with this individual. Don't call him in with it, and this is again a huge giant, pile of horse shit, You have this individual. He hears a piece of shit, individual, He has some issues. His family owns that price. Pretty and properties around where her car was found. And you don't bring them in now his lawyer when they talked a lawyer, he lawyer says but yea combined my client in- and we probably won't answer any questions but will make a stay what you don't know what that statements gonna be

You call him in a new record that statement and they never did that and that's again just it's just lazy horse shit investigation saw march twenty seventh that's the day of the bonfire right. So there is a party that night bonfire party, but there is also a party that benny hand with a bunch of his friends at his mother's cabin. So it's very unclear on how big this party was, but the following day: they're going to have a bigger party and because they're at this cabin they need to clean it up a little bit and they, when they go to clean up this party. His girlfriend sees blood on a sheet, discover some blood. Yes in the camp,

A lot of blood, actually an her there. Reasoning for this blood is that some, but he was having sex and it was their first time, and so they bled, but she thought initially, but this seems like a lot more blood then the reason there giving keep in mind too at this time the the local far the general consensus. If you will was It Denise was missing voluntarily. she may return, there was still alive. People that believed in the first day or two that she had just gone. Off with someone or without partying or or doing stuff that that, of course, she was not that type according to her parents, but that was the local belief by lotta people. So while this may cause, some red flags, it doesn't seem to send him all the way up, the flagpole but

I believe the girlfriend says that she did report this in then to somebody law enforcement yeah after a little bit of time, went by and it started becoming more clear that Denise didn't just walk away from her life that there was probably some foul play. She did contact law enforcement, but again law enforcement is didn't follow up on certain days. They could went out to the poor. They could have got maybe a search warrant. They could a search warrant for the property of the party that they just didn't. Do things that you should do. and the sins have a lot of land and they have different properties. Multiple properties and a lot of these properties are large. You know they have several acres, if not dozens of acres right One thing that's troubling here to regarding the ex girlfriend, for benny Johnson is she says it about. Two months after Denise went missing

he's telling her that hey after school I've got something to show you so after school. She goes and meets up with benny. He wants to take her out into the woods on of their properties, one of the johnson properties and the girl for instance, at some point she backs out. She got nervous. She didn't comfortable going into the wood she's. She says, even to this day, she's a little unclear why she didn't feel comfortable edge. she's asked direct questions. Was it because you did trust benny was it because you are afraid of benny and she As you know, I've thought about this a long time. It might seem, just be, I was afraid of what he was going to show me yeah. So here we go so benny. The big red flags me is that the johnson family, his family, owns this.

Property owns where her remains could be. Act owns as cabin that we find blood in his girlfriend. Buildings grow for another time starts, suspect him. He takes her out to this pond. She never sees what he's trying to show her, but then again all the local rumours that binny confesses. I think the thing that plays in his favour is, like you said his confessions seem to contradict themselves or the details. Don't line up, but then, on top of that, there are actually able to question, has cousin, which was at the party. The night for the man I afterwards and he says one than theirs: local rumours that randy has confess to involvement, and one of the statements is that today's

went out to get her purse and binney and randy and we're out there, so they take her back to a place that there were drinking and there were partying now this could have been the cabin I'm not for sure. Once Denise sees these drugs, she starts freaking out and somebody it's not clear. Based off of this local person, this local person came forward and said This is the convention that randy gave him right, says, someday, punch, stir and that's where it all started. Ok, now we punch stir and now the situation has got a at a hand, so they end up beating her basically to death and then feeding her to the pigs and that, there was screens and she was screaming and base. Way. That randy is haunted by the screams. Andy, says on camera and the documentary the heat ever claim

you have any involvement and doesn't work all ever making those types of statements to any one again, the people that are saying this are saying that he was heavily and It's when he's made these statements. These are referred to as duncan confessions and even so, It's that he was in michigan at the time. Again is all, these years later, it's hard to verify these things. But look what but what we do know- and I I hate to cut you off, but this pisses me off so bad. What we do now. Is that these scumbags, these rumours, it's not like these- are, where's. That happened twenty years later, this this stuff, that peat there's rumours happening and people talking about benny impossibly cousin early on in the investigation, and I wonder if originally, if mckinley was, working so hard at benny an

cousin, randy cates. The aegis failed to see the obvious of a potential person of interest in Sean Macleod. But if you're not a piece of shit, detective then and you'd take notes, and you did you due diligence, you'd you'd know and have confirmed or denied the alibi for sean and the new I have been able to confirm or deny the alibi for randy and a couple of statements that I keep going back to here is one from the family. They they say, the pain never goes away. They're, absolutely right. One hundred per cent- and I hope at some point- they can locate Denise. So they can have some answers. Some form of healing can start for I the pain never goes away, but what did shot clung, say when he was uncomfortable, questions were brought to him. Thirty, some years later he says it's been thirty, two

years. I wish people would just let it die. What's weird is in some in some way that's not so obvious to us, because it's not reported and not not been public information and sean MC clunky confession that he gave to law enforcement. He of implicated benny johnson in some form or fashion, because that's where they go looking for Denise his body and we can't say one hundred percent, that he did implicate benny Johnson, but one thing I found weird was when the document areas go to interview, benny Johnson, he says something similar. He says it's bins all these years. I just wish people would forget about it I wish. People would just let it go. What oh, what a weird thing to have similar statements now he lawyers up and it does not seem that police are going to jump

hurdle of that lawyer of that attorney of that representation and ask benny and ask him the hard facts. While no and look her ask him the hard questions, the creators of the vice documentary and I would state their names, but their difficult names to say An detective stacy reese there are the only ones that have ever really talked to benny this day. Law enforcement hasn't brought them in and you. Oh this is way and on their family, because the family has been asked multiple times to give us permission, give law enforcement permission to do searches, brain and cadaver dogs, and they ve been nine over and over and over so ok so will on one hand, law enforcement, not questioning benny banal. On the other hand, they are asking to search properties and there being denied. Why? Actually, I should take that back

I don't know how much law enforcement is actually pushing for these searches, but the family, the plum family has been flung the fluff. The flung family has been pushing for the Searches saw an inherent where gets in arresting as well, because we talk scream. So you have that one can fashion where they feed her to the pigs and these screams well We do have a witness from thirty years ago, Vivian may so. Vivian tells us kids when they come home, she seems rattled that she heard some screams three or four screwing three or force dreams, loud guttural, very horrific haunting. Yet to the point: where screams she feels

To the point where they know that she feels uncomfortable, even just talking about what she heard, so they go out and look at this property. Ass, their mom. Where did the screams come from she points? Since he does look, I know because these were guttural or rhetoric screams points. This plot of and and who is the land owned by benny Johnson Ben Johnson, sr? It's it's johnson, family property. the other property was owned by been johnson benes dad and on this property there was a pond So they call law enforcement, but guess what long? For doesn't follow up just like with the freak it alibis, just like with the questioning

look, I'm still pissed off, and I understand that you have suspects in this case both again waiting. You talk to more people that possibly were at this party. Why did he to the high school and sort round in people up and just getting statements. At least we have a lot of information to go off of, but she don't even follow up this vivian maize story. Now again, the screens were coming from been Johnson's property it's absolutely ridiculous and then for whatever reason, one. These ponds world later filled in which I find to be pretty suspicious and that this look. And I know this been Johnson is dead, but this guy is a real son of a bitch Because you have a eighteen year old woman that disappeared is most likely was murdered.

and there remains were most likely disposed of on your property, and it's possible that your son is involved and he's has stood in the way of law enforcement or the family to bring in law enforcement to search any of his properties he's pass away now, but he kept on saint while yeah I I was fine with search in, but we couldn't get together on the details. I understand that, maybe you don't want them coming in just taking up your property. but grass is gonna, grow back, I just it does. and made to me with all these. Local rumors, People saying that you son has confessed to them. It's almost like he's is protectionist son. Maybe he is afraid of what their fine and there were able to talk to me

these mom and she says he has issues and he never does the right thing right. So I mean it's just at what like your husband's, not doing the right thing either. Let them searched I property, because if you search abroad fine, nothing, fine, well, As far as benes confessions or drunken confessions go that gets a little difficult to to to discern just how incriminating that actually is given that use given different statements, different stories at different times, but then also that consensus among amount town. Is that many have one screw loose. He got a bunch of screws loose, and so it's hard to believe in I think that he says, and then you want to talk about hard to believe anything that someone says you have to talk about larry hall. larry dwayne haul, ass we pointed out earlier is suspected serial killer he's a giant shit stain is what he is

and he suspected of kidnapping raping and killing girls. and women in multiple mid western states. Thankfully he is currently locked up in The carolina- and he does not seem like its he's ever going to get out he's lock, upon federal charges because they found a murdered victim that they could prove that he kidnapped her and transported her across state law he's right, therefore, making it a federal crime. However, they we're reserve to charging him with kidnapping because they simply didn't have the evidence they believed at the time to get the murder conviction. They ve made great efforts to make sure that Larry hall never gets out. Because if you were to believe Larry hall, or at least larry halls of may and the changes in store you frequently. If you

or to believe some of his stories. Then he may have killed. He may have abducted and killed thirty forty women and girls and the reason why he falls into suspicion here is one he was active at this time: kidnapping females he lived in wabash indiana, so he's about two and a half hours from connor's of ill indiana and some say? Well, that's that's a little far that might be a bit of a stretch, but a lot of them arms he suspected of happened in other states. In fact, the crime that he's convicted of the kidnapping charges he's convicted of happened over two and a half hours driving distance from where he lives. So the distance alone does not put it out of the room, a possibility that he could be the perpetrator of this and then, furthermore I was trying to

to me. This was very important to nail down a day on when this confession came fashion. We have the employee, where he implicates himself as a potential good, suspecting Denise forms case. comes from a list that he created and the best I could do captain as to determine that he created this list in either twenty ten or twenty eleven and on this list. He list thirty nine girls and women he does Say that he murdered them, he says that these Girls are women that he abducted well on that list. The list is pretty simple heap, to date, which is simply a year. He doesn't give exact dates. Just a year right, if a name, if he can barefoot, provide an aim. Sometimes you just as girl or I will give a different title and

he provides a general location. Well, his list starts with egg or a person named Debbie in ninety any one. We go down the list, one two, three four comes from Debbie's name, he has listed nineteen eighty six denise, connor's will indiana that certainly matches up with our denise flung case. He and the problem with law enforcement with Larry hall is: is he a serial killer or is he a serial confessed? or a wanta, be he's been called a one, a beef. I several investigate and look if you get the time to check out blackbird on an apple tv, it's a very fascinating story and on this break it down as quick as that

can he's arrested. We don't know if he's a serial killer or a zero confessor. So there was this famous cop that his son was arrested for, I believe selling drugs. James keen is the son's name, so they're like well loved this. This is a sort of law enforcement of really respectable officer. We're gonna approached the office. Er en talk with his son and say: hey: we can put you in a maximum security prison he's he he's in a cupcake prison, but we can put you in a maximum security prison. You be friend, Larry hall, you get him to confess. You get him to tell you where the bodies are and if you do so will that she had a present done and done so. He takes the deal.

And what happens if he does become friends with larry hall and gets larry hall to confess to certain things, and then at some point Larry hall has this map that he has red dots on it and those red dots in the cave where these crimes took place, and he was carving these little. I believe there were owls and that he would place the owls roughly where the victims were I believe they were falcons falcons, ok, but this is where James keen screws it up and he's admitted that he screwed this up, but he's in a maximum security prison, probably fearful of his life, with every turn. Also, probably fearful that he's gonna be found out. They, his own format for the fbi, and he sees this map and instead of taking his time and telling law enforcement and making sure that they can get to this

map delivery hall has created. He loses it now. basically tells Larry hall. You are the scum of the earth, you're a giant pile of shit, and it blows is cover and he's unable for a time period to yet. I think probably what happened? Was he tried to get in touch with his what guy agent he got, he gets moved a solitary confinement, so good luck, it near information out when you're locked up in a in a tiny little room all by yourself, and so at the time this was an actual actually a medical center for federal prisoners in springfield Missouri at the time, and when he sees this map according to james keen, he believes that the doubts on the map and the black birds or the falcons or the owls or whatever they were. We don't get clear indication of from Larry hall exactly what these birds are, but

He believes this to be markings of where either, where bodies are left. by larry hall or where he abducted, a murder them or where he murdered a victim, Larry hogging difficult, because there is a lot of people that believe around this big van there's, big old van and there's no doubt he's a murderer so even though he's never been convicted of murder, keep in mind the kidnapping charge that he is currently incarcerated. For is a an abduction that resulted in death so he is a murderer. The difficult thing with him is a lot of these people on his list A good deal of m have never been found, which makes it one and cry really difficult for an investigation, but then, on top

this guy roamed in roamed in roamed, mid west two a day gee. That's unheard of I've, I mean we ve talked often about a vehicle being, Serial killers tour weapon- this is easy. I mean he's driving around this murder wagon. This murder van and. Sometimes he would he would assault and kill or its believed. I should say it's believed that he would assume kill a victim where he found them and sometimes leave them where he found them, but there times he would abduct them and drive them very far away and torture them in this van that he had. Also known to mutilate the bodies now you read this. It actually says, mutilate the body sexually not we don't need to go too far down that road by.

In this guy's. A horrible individual, that's the other problem, though with been johnson in the whole johnson family, is you- do have people on law enforcement that go look Larry hawes were very good, suspect fur denise is murder. Let us search your property. Is it possible that he disposed of the body? Not. I may think about that. If, if he came across, the knees looking for a purse and somehow captured her or got her move her car- or maybe there was some car prom. or whatever got her to pull over got her the pull over. Maybe he was part on this the road in and she thought maybe he was some from the party who knows, but it's like he has a good suspect. And he might of dispose of the body roughly where he came in contact with her,

because it was a very remote rural area, so let them search the property and the thing is, If they do find her remains and they can connect the case back to your son, then you're taken up a murderer that you clearly have state His family has clearly stated that he has mental issues taken a very dangerous person off the streets. Where that's a family, member or not, but it's possible You find her remains in you're able the tie that back to life hall, Larry hall was arrested in nineteen ninety four and he was convicted in ninety ninety five and sentenced to life in prison without parole for the kidnapping of jessica roach now under the federal system, if a suspect is convicted in a kitten

being that results in death. There is a mandatory life term with no parole, so he is not getting out. As said when James, Keen was working on getting confessions from Larry hall. They were spending I'm at a medical center for federal prisoners in springfield, Missouri pause. Currently serving time at the butler federal corrections complex in the great state of north carolina now, He has on multiple patients admitted to several martyrs and in fact it twenty ten or twenty eleven. He admitted two per this list: the abduction of thirty nine females and he was here we involved in the and participating in civil war, reenact reenactments from nine eighty to ninety ninety four. According to his

of thirty nine, that he provided to a reporter. He was actively abducting girls and women from nine. in eighty one up until he was arrested in nineteen. Ninety four and now some people have called him a wanna, be some people have said that he's made all this up. I think we have to when you take a look at this, you gotta give unfortunately, gotta, give larry hall a little bit of credibility here, because or they arrested in ninety. Ninety four one thing that they suffer aided him, they had some suspects in some of these cases. These outstanding cases, Larry hall was a suspect in two of their cases. They start taken it look it larry home than what they realize they like wait. A second we have. Eleven reports in police reports from girls in five different towns that say that

were approached by larry hall and multiple occasions, these eleven reports they give the meat they give eight description of his van and a description of him. His van is pretty unique. Its overtime years old. At the time it's too toned and some of them are actually able to give his license plate he's u looking because he's got mutton chops, you look like shit these on the shorter side, a little heavier and, like the calf said there were multiple reports where what could have been a potential victim was able to give a camp license plate number to law enforcement in effect. One time one of these reports comes from a girl who says he he was stocking. Her she's out on her bikers she's out walking around and he's driving up and keeps approaching earn keeps approaching. Our keeps approaching her.

And she notifies a police officer who she provides the license plate He tracks, Larry hall down. Ask him what he s here. Doing. larry hall goes well about. Looking for my friends address, I'm trying to locate will this person, I know and Fortunately, they don't hall a man right then, and there, the law enforcement officer, goes back to the state in an later looks up that addressed to learn that it was a fake address. The Larry high provided there on the spot to get himself out of a jam. So all of these different reports and then he can the killing jessica roach then recounts that statement and then that's when they are able to get a search warrant for his vehicle and or his property, while on one of the reasons why, I think he's a really good suspect in Denise's is because when he go to do these,

Civil war or a revolutionary war reenactments they might be taken, on a saturday or sunday, and he would leave early, so he would peruse these towns on that thursday or the friday war, and so here we have a girl that goes missing mid day friday. Very like He he was in the area for one of these reenact events in larry halls initial confessed. Regarding the murder of jessica roach, he told investigator that he tied her up, but can't reach were with what he says. He took off her pants and then he says that he later raped jessica led her to the

goods and then strangled her from behind. He said that he did this because he did not want to see her face ass. She died. He says it I later up against a tree and put a belt around her neck. And then she stopped breathing again. Remember. He then later recounts this confession, which leads to searching for evidence at his in his van and at property. During that confession, though, captain he also admitted to abducting and killing other girls and gives very vague statements, saying all girls looked like. I can't remember all of them. I picked up several girls and other area but I can't remember which ones I hurt: while Larry halls in arresting because, like it said he driving around looking for opportunities, but he also

seem to have a very distinct type and Denise would fall into that type of victim. Very more build very somewhere look. They found one they are calling a kill kid or abduction kit and his van, which I we're getting a shortened version of the of items that were found, but what is reported is then it was rope, knives, a ski masks, ether which was also describe as a rag soaked in starter, fluid which can be used to incapacitate somebody and also in the van they found new stories about kidnappings and serial killers. Now, when they search his home, they fly find list in journals, their Larry hall, its, leave that they were made by larry hall, and some of them were seen

girls and bikers many alone, so like he's driving around in taking notes on the different locations that he is he's. Seen joggers and bikers many of them alone. He goes on and on, The notes. A czech colleges check parks, sir in some prospects then he has a list of items to buy the hardware store with deep old instructions and the list by two. More plastic tarps cover all floor, and of van no body contact by com by two more leather belt. Five one now I dont know if he means find one belt now or find a victim now, and legislators also found newspaper clippings about jessica roach, who was later convicted of kidnapping. They are so found pornographic photos that they believe were turn by larry hall. One investigator saying quote: he:

drawn what looked like a rope or bell around the neck of one of the people and on the left I have one of the pictures, the left side of the mouth, drawn blood and here's, where I have two, unfortunately give a little bit of credibility to larry halls confessions or at the very least list that he provided to that reporter and twenty ten twenty eleven, because that list we have Denise his name. Nineteen. Eighty six carter's will indiana hurt is wedge between two other. What he's listing as abduction, victims for the same year. Nineteen eighty six mila is listed as summer field illinois. Nineteen, eighty six listen just above the his name just below Denise, his name. We have Kim nineteen eighty six. This is from it pain illinois. The thing that's.

thing to me here. Captain is miley. Chavez was from california body was found in summer field illinois and I went through it. I crossed reference to a lot of these names, listed the year in the location, he provided on the list. They all check out, there's all a bit dumb with that name from that location who went missing the year that he provides so that's a little weird now. It's also not completely out of the realm of possibility that here, reading about serial killers, he's clipping all these new stories about abductions and therefore he's unable to memorize them or them to memory, and now he simply interacting with reporter and get some kind of satisfaction from provoke, providing this rapporteur with all these false leads- or this false confession to all these thirty nine different abductions. But

One that I want to home in on is merely a chavez of california. What's so thing to me is that, yes, he provides this name, the list in twenty ten or twenty eleven. She was did and went missing and nineteen eighty six, the remains that were recovered were now identified until two thousand and seven She was from another state, a state, far away California. She was Is somerville Illinois dont know that he would know that via newspaper or somebody else telling him. You know you see what I mean. There's there's enough history there and he gets enough right. With such a little to go on their debts, seems to me that there could be a lot of trees.

at least to this one particular victim that he has listed and it's a victim that he's got listed right, two denise his name. It is very difficult. Here and say which ones we think he committed, but I think that there probably some truth along the way to this thirty nine. I don't that I believe all of em, but there not able to connect him to this. I also wonder, with some of these cases in some of the jurisdictions how how effort or time are resources they want to spend on it, knowing that he's not getting out of prison, but a problem, though to is with these killed kits, and possibly these tools or weapons used in the murders. While that's great, and maybe you could do some kind of dna tests. As far as I gene genealogy bell,

these victims, there remains were never recovered. Correct. Most of these victims were never recovered. We do have several investigators that are on record saying that if there were to be a dna, matched to larry hall and some of their cases, he won't be prosecuted, because he simply can't be released from prison that he's locked up in federal prison, but here's the thing here's where I say: wake up a little bit because it It's all set up that he'll never be released in December thousand and twenty one larry hall in attorneys filed motions for what's called a compassionate reliques. He was asking the courts to release him from prison stating that he is overweight than he up there. In years he had

I blood pressure and therefore he is more susceptible to dying from getting covert nineteen and that they should take that into consideration and then release him from prison as a compassionate release. Thankfully, he was denied this compassionate release now. One thing that that I to talk about two is as far as civil war, reenactments girl and a captain hit on something very, very important. When you talk about larry hall, this guy drove a lot this guy often leave early for these reenactments and he would often come back late, well, Find anything in the greater connor's will indiana area for the day or two.

question regarding denise flubs disappearance, but there was a civil war reenactment in heading tennessee, which was held at fort pillow state historic area march. Twenty second march, twenty third nineteen, eighty six It would not be impossible for larry hall to travel down from wabash from walden indiana down to heading tennessee and stop off unc collars will, along the way or on the on the way back. The other thing to was just the previous year in nineteen. Eighty five, Andy october thirteenth, in roberts park, there was a civil war reenactment income, as will indiana. So there's a chance, He had been to the area the year before, just six months before the niece was abducted.

So there are some things that do certainly tie him to this case into a lot of other cases while, like I said, we have three good suspect, so I think you should make an argument for either one, and then we have confessions with all these suspects. But that's what pisses me off. We have three good suspects. We have confessions and I believe, a flaw Fourth meant what had done the work that they needed to do. Initially, we would have answers in this case and possibly with where did nieces remains were and the family would have some closure and the community would have some closure. Contrexeville has been haunted by Denise. His case I think I'll be continued to be haunted until they get answer, in two thousand and seven, the indiana state police were able to collect d and a Denise floods dna. though, she has been listed now in nam,

no data bases of missing persons, so if or when her remains are recovered, they can be identical. I'd as that of Denise flung. If anybody has, The information regarding the death or disappearance of Denise flung, please contact the fat king. county, indiana, sheriff's department or if anyone has any information regarding larry D, in hall. Please contact the fbi the The thank you all for join us here in the garage make sure you are subscribe to the podcast ca Do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful beautiful listener? Yes,

do captain this week we are recommending a classic. It's called love me to death by the great steve. acts in. This is the chilling true story of william wild bill, cody meal, the vicious denver lady This was originally released in two thousand, and eleven by new orkut Best selling author, Steve Jackson Annie, also a an award journalists as well. This was he released at the end of last year, because again it is a true crime classic so check out. Love me to death by the great steve jackson- you can find that recommendation and many more on our recommended page at our way site, true crime, garage darker and if you're not following us on youtube check this out at true crime garage on youtube and until next week,

good, be kind and don't let him.