Thirty years ago, a van exploded in a parking garage below the world trade center. The plan was to send the noise tower crashing into the south. It failed, but six people were killed and more than one thousand injured. The master behind it all were just getting started and would soon change the world forever featuring. Never before heard audio. This is a story tat by investigators from around the world using double agents and an undercover operative to bring the bomber to justice This is operation trade bomb, an apple, original, podcast host by mark smiling, follow operation trade bomb on apple podcast, gassed bedtime is rough even for peanut. That's why peep,

we'll, try anything to fall. Asleep had stands before bed even blowing bubbles, but actually has a trick that works every time. A new timber, peter mattress, it adapts to your bodies, needs to help me fall asleep, faster and stay asleep a longer your way got feeling refreshed every day, even being at agrees, so did the wacky bedtime rituals had to actually to take home a temper peter today the

but I really don t they intruder rambling view. The parents from that dream, more response

After John Ramsay and fleet white found jonbenet his body in the wine cellar located in the basement. in a hurry ran up the stairs taking the body with him, placing body on the floor of the kitchen. Detective linda art then moves body to the living room. Then art orders, fleet white, to stand by the door to the basement and guard the door fleet. Why goes to the door but for some reason, runs down stairs to retrieve the duct tape from the basement floor. This is all taking place between one o four p m in one twenty three p m I certainly one thirty p m priscilla white calls her home, I'm guessing here, captain, but this is very likely to halt bark leaving the white house and returning to the ramses around the same time,

officers. Ron, walker and Larry mason returned to the scene, Saul, javanese body and then search the home afterward securing the house shortly after body was found. John Andrew ramsay, Melinda Ramsay and stuart long arrive at the ramsay house and bold colorado between one third, two p m, a detective overhears jaw on the phone john called a pilot, his pilot telling him to ready the plane. This to me is very strange behaviour from somebody who has just recovered the body of their six year old daughter, right around two p m John Ramsay signs consent form to search the ramsay home. Just touching on that that plane call to the pilot for a little bit here that the detective

to stop John ramsay from leaving the Ramsay family from leaving telling the ramses hey. Do you shouldn't go anywhere, We have a murderer, investigation, the crime scene, your home and in other not going to tell them this of frontal centre here. But obviously there suspects right now. I think the way that ramseys were actually thinking was Alana. Georgia was what they considered a home. So we have this bad thing that happened. We want to get back home, we don't want to be here. We don't want to be in this house, but that does like you said, hinder the investigation. I don't think that hinders the investigation of the house or the crime scene, but a henderson. application and being able to talk with them adequately yeah and then, regarding this consent to search form for the search warrant. If you will

Why? Because this makes it seem, like johns, been very cooperative yeah. I and I nikolay don't believe this to be an actual search warrant. You know one that you bring before judge judge signs off on it. I believe this is just a consent to search form signed by John ramsay thee, where the owner of the home. This is just one of those other little details within this case that I absolutely cannot dan. Is it regardless? You note, depending on whose magnifying glass. You look at these details from you get a different story on what's going on here, where the ramsay defenders would tell you look. This is proof positive that they were extremely cooperative. Don't bother nick with work, about that. They wanted to hop on a plane and fly far away, because this shows cooperative. They are, they were signing a consent to search their home form. They have not

to hide their an open book, but then the ones it wanted I'm after the ramses point out not really an open book, because John later says that he thought he was signing off on on on saying that, yes, you can perform an autopsy on the body right. So it's it's just frustrating! That's one of the most frustrating pieces of this case law. I think that when the frustrate, Even says when people say only one things, the truth right can we agree on that. It can't be both yeah. Why why, in an alley where they say, there's three sides to the truth: there's yours, mine and the actual truth, not always, but I think there's the truth. But I think, with the whole wanting to go back home, he didn't go back home like they rounded to the cops

yeah. Don't do that! That's a bad idea, but it's so stupid. With this case, it's like a non point like yeah, whose was let's go back home. I don't do that. Ok, we're not going back home, but they don't and stay in the house that nobody wanted to be in that house on Ike not blame them, I and I d even of John ever went back in that house after that day to see and abstained with their friends. But, but let us also be clear that around this time they pull John. To a room by himself and they talk to him for a while and at some point they talk to burke by himself for a while. So they do talk to burke. This would be at the he never comes back to the rams house right, so they talked of burke one on one may standing as it was straight up. One on one, it was bark was still at the friends house right

and he's over there. You know playing with the other kids in their distracting him that I that's a troubling aspect to this case too, because you can look at just that whole situation in two different ways: one are you protecting? your child burke by removing him from the situation that could scar him for life, something extremely traumatized, or are you purpose? putting him away so that he doesn't disks some information right by you. You eventually let em talk to the cops one on. One John save the room with him right you're, so worried about why he's gonna say or if he knew that he does smashed is six year old sisters head with a few Actually, your allenham, sir, in a room with a detective by himself or with friends in others that you share that information with willie daily

he's nine years old, right, you're, not there when, when they ship 'em off and also that's not just the ramsey's thought process of all this kept burke out of here. This was a this was the cops and the rams he's gone. He needs to be removed from this site. The cops suggested that he should be removed from the the ramsay home and I think it was it was. I gave a collective effort as a collective idea. I dont think I was just at some point the Ramsay santa hey he needs get out of here, thing I will point out here that I think is very troubling on behalf of the border police and on the ramses is, if you're working under the scenario the child has been kidnapped from home in a ransom has been called for in a letter when you want to play, act, your your remaining child, wouldn't who feel that the day

should be some kind of security for this other child rather sending him off to some friends house rise. It seems it it's another situation, where we can point out that the border police clearly did not know how to respond to a kidnapping situation that, where a ransom is being called for, At the end of the day. I think people are pointing at ramses constantly. you don't know what it would be like to lose a six year old daughter or how you'd react or what you'd be thinking about. be hard to think about anything you go all well, they shipped him away so they're not protecting their son in my name and beheld to think properly. So I think some of their action right. That's not what I mean. That's when the border police should have stepped in and said now. This is this.

This home right now secured because we have law enforcement presence here he safe here right, I I agree and they should have done a better job of trying to when they got to the scene. Initially, they should cleared the whole house and then and then they would have found her and then the crime scene, one have been contaminated in there. Also without enough officers, we're not having her father pick her up and contaminate evidence in and then have the mother cry over her and contaminate evidence. Have the detective pick up the victim ratan contaminate Hence I mean it's that's pretty well. Not only did Linda aren't move the body after john move, the body- and this is orton to the autopsy, but sought. She allowed some one to take a blanket as you no sign of

to protect their child, or I know, where remorse or whatever, whatever howard many different ways. You want to look at it she'll I want someone to take a blanket and place it over the body once it was removed to the move to the living room and then to further that job and his feet were still sticking out from the blanket from the bottom of the blanket and lit, I believe, Linda, aren't told someone to cover up the fee is so they took a colorado avalanche. You know the hockey team they either took hockey sweater, aura or sweat shirt and placed it over the feet of the body, so What that means to the lay person based any hairs fibres. Anything like that could have been on that blanket could have been on that sweat, shorter sweater. Now, is on could be on her back

how and or clothing so it just is just truly a mess. Now short, after john sizes, consent to search form The ramses leave their home. They go to stay with the furnace. Remember we discuss journeys. They showed up early that morning to the Ramsay hope this, the ramses, owing to the furnace, includes johns order. Children, john andrew ramsay and Melinda ramsay and her boyfriend as well sometime that afternoon, John Ramsay calls and request a visit from Michael vinyl, who is report to be John ramses, close friend and a corporate attorney. It is during this visit so Michael bottom. He agrees to this visit during this visit that same afternoon, the john hires Michael vinyl, to represent him and

the bynum advises the ramseys at that time that they need to get additional attorneys river you're. I think you're missing one step. They actually got a call. Their lawyer got a call. He wasn't hired at the time, but but that's why he suggested that John keates lawyer, because he got a call from a contact that he had inside the police department. That said they're just trying to make this about you guys and that's it and that's when he suggested you need to get a lawyer december, twenty six, ninety, ninety six at the home of john and patsy ramsay. This is from the report. These are the words of pathologist john g meyer m d. He says the body of the six year old, feed I was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified, a seven fifty five fifteenth street and bolder colorado. I arrived at the scene, approximately p m and entered the house where the decisions by

was located at approximately eight twenty p m. I initially the body in. living room of the house. The deceit it was like lying on her back on the floor, covered by a blanket colorado avalanche sweatshirt on removing these two items from the top of the body. The decision was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head, the head was turned to the right. A brief exam nation of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck, and ligature around the right wrist also noted was small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek a prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck after exam. the body. I left the residence at approximately eight thirty p m at ten forty five p m on December twenty sixth, the boy a six year old job in a ramsay is removed from the families home before

we move on two december, twenty seventh captain. I want to make sure that I point out here in regards to contamination of the body that it has been noted by several people. This is not one of these items. It's in dispute or up for debate. This is across the board, John ramsay patricia ramsay, Linda art and fleet Y all touched the body before it was hammond ray and John Ramsay and patricia ramsay touch the body several times. I'm not pointing that out to indicate guilt or to indicate that the ramses we're trying to cover something up. I think it would be a one hundred percent natural reaction to want to go. to your child to touch your child, I'm just hanging out for the purpose of evidence.

revalue yeah I mean that compromises the scene, we're not saying that it's to cover up being that it compromises the scene and and then we also know where we're starting from so the following is from Steve thomas's book. This is in the ramsay murder investigation. Steve Thomas was well of the leading detectives on the case. This is from page forty one, and it says was the morning of december. Twenty seventh, the little body was first remove from a locked, yellow outer covering then from an inner black bag. The paper sacks were removed from the hands and feet, and meyer remember he's the pathologist begin striving his findings: the victim wade. Forty five pounds was three feet: eleven interest tall and had green eyes in some green garland was caught in her blind

here. A single loop of white cord was around her right, wrist tied on top of the sleeve, but so loosely the doktor easily slit free. There were fifteen half inches between that loop and a loop on the other and which once apparently had bound the left wrist a white cord of the same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep, horizontal furrow had been dug into the skin. A gold chain and cross were tangled in that legate, which was tied behind the neck. To a You can stick blonde hair was snared in the not and the coroner had to cut the hare in order to remove the cord which

tied more like a noose than a twisting garage. The broken paintbrush used as the garage handle had korea printed on it. When Meyer clipped the nails of each finger, no blood or tissue was found that would indicate a struggle. He used the same clippers for all the fingers, although doing so created an issue of cross contamination, for optimal dna purposes. Separate and sterile clippers should have been used for each finger. Furthermore, We later learned that the coroner's office sometimes used the same clippers on different autopsy subjects. That's that's amazing, great job, their captain we could go. Through the entire autopsy, I want can I go through and cherry pick some items, but two do the entire autopsy would be an exhausting process. It's over. three thousand words long so

point that out one to not be late the about it, but to point out that it was in appears to be a thorough document constructed by pathologist meyer, cherry picking some items here at the top of the report captain we have name ramsey jonbenet as this one's a real quickly, if, if you're not willing to take the time to have different clippers on each finger I would assume there's some kind of protocol that lets us. If we're going to start with that conversation, then- and yes, it's three thousand words that I don't know if that means it's thorough, I just meant. The document I said was a thorough document not a thorough examination. The thing here with these autopsies they gets difficult is you're solely relying usually on one individual to hand this process properly. As your point

now here follow protocol and protocol varies depending on what county urine. What city here and what state urine its I hate to say spot. It truly is about a willy nilly process. It's one of those situate since, where you question, the science of it because its human error and its and it can be laziness it can be a number of different things and they can opinion based correct and The other thing to is, you know I had a discussion once with with some people. They said, while there were multiple hairs found on the body from different sources, and that means that there were multiple killers and he said well, Not necessarily. We ve done enough of these cases to realise that the random and fibres can end up on people for a number of different reasons that are innocent nature right. But

to further that, along in the wave, hit the way that I connect this to this conversation, is I've reviewed at least to cases where later we learned that one of the hairs found on the body came from the body bag that the body was placed into it wasn't cleaned properly roar? the county that was quite poor in there just reusing body bags all the time the report states at the top, the name of the decision, is ramsay job in a date of birth, august six, ninety ninety age, six sex, female autopsy, number, ninety, six, a one: five, five death date and time december, twenty six, ninety, ninety six, thirteen twenty three so one twenty three p m, this is interesting. They have too well. I guess they don't have to, but per protocol are supposed to put a time

death on this form, whether they come up with an actual time of death or not, and in situation, one twenty three p m is put on this document because that's considered to be, agreed upon time that the body was in the living room. We know and die at one twenty, three p m and in fact there no real time of death that was truly established. In this case, Steve Thomas says that the detectives were told to work with. A window of one, a m to seven, a m. and then he kind of backs into that a little bit and shrink set window based off of some formation. We know to be true the nine normal one call comes in before six a m, so you can go ahead and take away sixty seven now left with one a m to six a m right. I lie there. I do like you,

hear me, question steve, Thomas's actions. And theories and in how he came up with some stuff as we move forward, but I want to point out that, Personally, I find his investigation to be interesting in in a sense that there are pieces of it that seem incredibly thorough where even on the timeline of the day when the bodies found He has multiple times for when people arrived at the house inside his room or an inside his notes? Some people point out why terrible job. This detective has more Couple times for the same people arriving to the house, this can't be an accurate document. Re see, thomas reclaims for that to be an accurate document. What he saying is I've talked to everybody. Somebody tell the person a arrives at this time and then somebody else tells me personally arrived at that time until I can prove what time

that person arrived on, leaving both in my report and in my notes, both are correct, so I find that portion to be well done on on Mr Thomas's behalf. Yet because, as you said, and he's not just gone okay, why I talked to this person? I talked to this person that I believe this person more right he's the same. He even had on there until he can prove other otherwise, and why I find it a little tricky, though, is when we have the time of death when he's discussing what he believes or what he claims, the detectives believe to be the time of death. I find that I his theory in the detectives theory kind, a wig oil. That theory gets. gold into their time of death in the window that they create. You know that making assumptions that I think thinkers very dangerous to make in this investigate one being that they say

ok well, we're told to work with this window of one a m to seven a m. We know that it was or six a m because of the nine. When one call we ve shrunk the window a little bit deep. They want to shrink this window and I we need window to be much smaller than that. We need that window to be shrunken. Yes, so we can really get an idea of what happened in who needs to be accounted for during that time. The thing I believe that they do that's dangerous to the investigation, as they make the assumption that the the ransom letter was penned after the death and that the letter writing process would take a certain amount of time, and thus can shrink the window even more, wrote the letter out yourself. I have not, but if I sit down and try to ride it. With my left hand, instead of my right is going to take me even longer, right by me. Do you have like just a guess of how long do you think it would take you to copy

well, you say copy, but there's a chance that the author was was writing it from scratch right yeah that they're coming up with it and here's the other thing. How many times did they? How many practice letters could there be? You know there are multiple pages ripped out from that pad of paper, I believe it's three that they were able to determine that there were three pieces of paper. missing between where they believe the the page one of the letter came from and the rough draft let's caught with missus and miss a mr or mrs, I at the top of the page right bow. What I think people to do as pull out a couple sheets pay copy. It start by copying. They give you some kind of time frame its debts under five minutes. So yes, it's it's a lot different to create one from scratch. But if the perpetrator brought that note with them under five minutes to copy

yeah over eight hours. If you have to sit down a watch, ransom, dirty, harry and speed, when you doing candidate amazing that they didn't find those tapes at the scene of the crime right a right, Portable, remember those what t, v, vcr combos, yeah, black and white yeah that the the perp brought it with him. Alright, so we're we're getting getting off track here. A final diagnosis talk studies, blood, ethanol, none detected blood, drug screen, no drugs detected final diagnosis, cause of death of this six year. Old female is x, fixya by strangulation, associated pray, neo, so rebirth trot. If you had the chance to be brought back to life hundreds of years in the future, would you take it wonderings, newest

podcast frozen head hosted by ashen, alina of the hit show morbid, tells the true story of lawrence pilgrim. A lifelong scientist who plan for death his entire life, because for him death wasn't the end. It was just the beginning it's his dream to be frozen and brought back to life in the future, pulls us into a cryonics soap. Opera filled with dead pets, grenades, family feuds, hall of fame, baseball legends and frozen heads lots of frozen, heads it's a story about the desire to avoid death, the links that people will go to that a reality and what it means. To be alive to begin with. Listen the latest episodes of frozen head. Where after you find your favorite podcast. cheers

captain. I am raising a big big glass of christmas bomb. Twenty nineteen by the awesome folks at prairie, artisan, ales garage, great four out of five bottle caps thanks to everyone who is donated to the beer fun and I dont mean just this week. I mean all year long for the last how many years we keep the lights on and you keep beer in the fridge No, I am our mouths as well picking up where we left off here captain, to put it quite frankly just a muddy the waters even more. In this case we have simply to causes of death declared by MR myers m d, a that we will probably be discussing quite a bit. I want to describe this to everyone just so where all on the same page as we move forward, the term will be garage out. The general concern

this being here that a garage can be made out of many different materials, including ropes, cable, tie fishing lines: nylon, guitar, strings telephone calls. or piano wire. Anything of that type of nature. A stick may be used to tighten the girl. This is a spanish word which actually refers to the stick itself: Spanish. The term may also refer to a rope and stick used to construct a limb. This basically is a popular murder weapon and for sadist it's a torture device. It's on four, only a term that we ve used many times on the show, continue with our exam here, captain the deceit and is both in a long sleeved, whiteness, colourless sure the chest area contains an embroidered silver star with silver sequence,

tied loosely around the right wrist overlying, the sleeve of the sure is a white court at the not there is one tail and which measures five point: five inches in length with afraid and the other tale of the not measures. Fifteen point five inches in length and ends in a double loop. Not this end of the court is also frayed. There are no defects noted in the shirt, but the upper right sleeve contains a dried brown stain two point: five by one point: five and is believed to be from the nose or mouth there are long white underwear within elastic waste and containing a red and blue stripe, though Long underwear are urine stained over the crotch area and legs beneath

long underwear are white panties with printed rosebuds, and the word wednesday on the elastic He, the underwear is your and stained, and the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up two point: five inches maximum dimension to touch on this. What we ve just reviewed here, captain The in regards to the europe- this is a big big thing in this case. Because what we would learn very early in the investigation from the ramses housekeeper. Is the job in a was known to whet the bed quite frequently as well. Her statement, two detectives was that often when she would come in the morning, the patsy- have already stripped the bed, seeing the sheets in the wash her and then when the housekeeper

yet there you know, should transfer them to the drier sheets or dried and then apply them back the bed, and this was at. times a daily routine. I believe her statement was that was a daily routine, leading up to about thirty or forty days before the murder, and it this kind of gone away. It was all like germany, had grown from that that she was no longer wedding. The bed, I might be mistaken, but I think at one point she was not went in the bed and then she started wedding. The bed again, that's exam. billy right. That's the same thing that I heard, and I believe that was the statement from the housekeeper. The detectives also found pool ups. You know like the they're they're, not quite diapers. Therefore older children die, wear them I wear them to concert, so I don't have to take a break to go to the bathroom onawandah miss anything now I wear them when I'm in the garage there were pull ups found in the hall

and there was some question if John beneath was known to wear these, I'm guessing that she would We'll see why pull ups would remain in the house, you have children that are nine and six years old, just like other pictures of their house man, it's a mass, that's true, there's the hot mess. One of the reasons why we point this out here is that one of the big theories that his life said all these years is that germany, what the bed that night and n you no anger anger in an impulsive reaction. Patsy freaks out and throws the kid across the room or hits or over the head with something, and it's this all came about because she went to bed once again right an path he had just been through on this was the final straw. She lost it

didn't mean to hurt or kill her child, but that's what she did and then, as I potty training abuse, its is actually pretty common like that. Even people that want it you wanna thank, would hit our kids or be violent towards her kids. They can be if the kid is not being potty, train correctly or not able to do such so. We have to address this because we do have in the autopsy report from the external examination, that there was urine on the clothing. I do want to point this out, though we should be clear here that this could have come about, at any time. It doesn't necessarily mean that she one hundred percent with the bed that night now this could have two she could have. She could have wet herself during an attack. That's extremely common. She could have wet herself. After you know, in death,

the soda point to that and say: hey. She had you of wet the bed, and this is the only this explanation we ve come up with due to that fact. Again I That's a dangerous assumption to make in this investigation to further is out a little more and I hate it I hate to throw the warning out there that it's gonna get a little gross, because it seems only hence because we are discussing it in autopsy topsy, but where the fact that our shows country, crime, garage in in the when cussing her wedding. The bed there's also reports that she has devastated in the bed before multiple types. There's also statements that burke would deficit in germany is bad.

I don't know either. One of those to be true is seems to me, like the one that we can really hang our had on here. That seems to be the most true. Is the bed wedding situation? This is brought up by multiple people and the other bit. I can't say for certain that that I believe either those now what would be pointed out during this investigation and the my words, but bed wedding death caning in the bad things of that nature. it was pointed out that sometimes that is what you would see when somebody is being released. It not only molested but usually when their being molested by somebody with in the home or within the family

The reason for that is that in those situations, sometimes the victim will do that consciously or unconsciously subconsciously whatever it is. Because they want to appear desirable or gross to the perpetrator. Some was a way of protecting themselves, correct that I point that out because is one of the theories as well. In this case, I also want to stay one hundred percent that there's never in any evidence before or after the murder. a job in a ramsay did John or patsy, had that they were ever. involved in any paraphernalia at all. Yeah possess be clear on something they search their house. I think there should cut it. There's one magazine that call

murder, kiddie, porn murder, they search there as for poor now, and they did not find any pressure in the There is also a rumour that they had all these books, or one of the books on in their study, was open up to ancestors that I believe it was the a dictionary down that the word incest was marked in a dictionary I quit in that one to captain, because that's one of those ones that you here in more salacious reports. On this case, I really question I feel like tat, would be of a more well known fact. If it was a fact, but we were we do know is the fact is that find any pornography in the house right in top that off these, both parents have other children, theirs you know- there's never been any any camps.

by any of the other children that the patsy or john was ever involved in anything like that and to further that out, even more, we have Melinda on record multiple time, seeing her father, just wouldn't be. capable of such an act and that here be it murder or molestation, while we're on the subject, though, of the bed wedding situation, one thing that I did find particularly strange in this case, and this is why reported to that job in ramsay had twenty seven doktor visits in the course of the three years leading up to her death on an average that puts her at like nine a year it's a crazy amount, the doctor, when asked about this states, that that was for the d, a pediatrician.

So that these were for all normal reasons. She did have some sinus issues. I guess that would be cause for reoccurring visits I also wonder too, we know. Situation of the accidental time when burke hit her in the face with the then that on club in the face and the face there in itself, though, I want to point out just just something like that requires multiple doctor visits. I was looking for like a have a straight up list or yeah you'd have if there were stitches, you have stitches then to remove the stitches. While we know that even yet we She went to a plastic surgeon loads, just like you pointed out there that that arts, with their initial doktor visit referral Somebody com, station the the surgery a follow up right there. You have more out of the twenty seven one you have a stay at home. Mom saw, I think you may,

for people that every bays working, and there's not a lot of money, little things you're, just gonna, let go. But when you, the time to take your daughter and for every little thing, and you have the money to cover it. I don't think that's unreasonable external. evidence of injury located just below the right ear at the angle of the mandible one point: five inches. Below the right external auditorium canal is a small rest. Colored about vision in the lateral aspect of the left, lower eyelid is particularly hemorrhaging. I'm gonna skip some portions of this autopsy report captain, because there are multiple pages that go through all of these particular hemorrhaging enrolled hemorrhaging that takes place. We know that we have already discussed it, strangulation was involved in anybody. That's what

the show or other true crime shows knows that hemorrhaging occurs during those types of situations, but to specifically describe some of the report here. This part, I believe, to be important wrapped around the neck. they double not in the mid line of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that right as being tied around the right grist. This ligature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed a single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the coin. Okay, so that portion of the last two sentences of his report, are describing the pathologists actions he sang. I removed it by cutting it, and then I placed markers indicating where, where the cuts took place, the not is left intact IX

being from the not on the neck, are two tales of the not one measuring four inches in length and having a afraid end and the other measuring seventeen inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around eighteen, brown wooden. Stick, which measures four point: five inches in length. This wouldn't stick is irregularly broken at both ends, and there are several colors of paint and varnish on the surface printed in gold. Letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word korea, the tail end of the other word extends from beneath the loops of the cord tighter on the stick and is not able to be interpreted. Blonde hair is entwined in the not and in the cord wrapped around the one stick. It appears to be made of white synthetic met Israel also secured around the neck is a gold chain with a single charm in the form of a cross

emanation of the right extremities is unremarkable. On the middle thing, of the right hand, is a yellow metal band around the right wrist the yellow metal in identification bracelet with the name john bernay on one side and the date twelve, twenty five. Ninety six! On the other side, this was a gift from her aunt, I believe from patsy's sis and I mean just that. There's these little sad heart breaking points in case, all along the way just remind you of the pure innocence of this little girl, and you know she cares. is wearing a gifted. She just very recently received. Him was probably very excited to wear this piece of jury that she received from her aunt. I mean it is a break your heart. I also thing it's not clear in this case on how brutal this attack was

This group, the way it was set up in almost looked like you'd, put a human on a leaf and then you'd be pushing their head down. As you pulled the the crop back, its truly horrifying. I dont think that there is any documentary out there that has, I don't know what the right word is here captain, but I want to say, bothered to describe how horrific there would please injuries. Are they all you make it sound like it sleeping beauty, lying in a window, less room in the basement and deaths out the situation at all there there's an if anybody that seen the pictures read the descriptions and we're going through here you hear the the medical

beak jargon? And it just sounds like textbook shit, but really in lay terms. It was it's a horrific attack on it on a tiny little person, yeah there's our fleets. Marks on the neck one at the lower part of neck and then at some point that became free and they go and deeper. And there is actually a couple pictures they can see. How! Deep, though the rope goes, round, or throw almost disappears yeah and the line that it left at the mid line. the throat. After the fact, though, I mean it should it looks like sir, but he took up maroon marker maroon sharply and just drew a line across somebody's neck. That's how deep it looked like it was. The cord was going into the neck there was a red ink line, drawing the form of a heart that was found

created on the palm of germany's left hand, the finger nails of both hands are of sufficient length for clipping, and we already discussed that they use the same clippers to click, all of the figures, you said that there was no, and found that we need the nails, but I thought there was some dna and possibly some blood that was found. underneath the right hands, fingered fingernails, so that showing that she struggled with somebody else. I'm point you correct. There are multiple reports on this detail of the investigation. The bit that I gave you was Steve Thomas's report, one of the leading tat gives so I dont know what is the real true answer. What I find it interesting is that he follows up his report by

saying we later learned that the all the finger nails were clipped with using the same clippers. Again, I think that points to his thoroughness of saying whether that is right or wrong. This will happen, the apple there's right or wrong. This is what happened and then to two ads way of that question. Every because this also happened right. What's the best way to describe the de because there was some, I dont want to use the word damage to the van virginal area. I don't think that damages the right word. Well. Did you say indication of I actually seen us disputed multiple ways, One claims that there there is evidence that there was at least some kind of touching too

the janitor area, digital manipulation yeah at the time of death, and then they also used the word chronic. Now, when you hear the word, chronic, You think this has been going on for a long time now. This was this term would have made sense to meaning that there was something that happened to her days in advance of one of the medical examiners, thought that this would happen basically most likely individual, putting their finger inside of her vagina on the twenty second or the twenty third. Now other medical examiners have stated that some of this bruising could be due to jeanne the bed wedding, the irritation of the irritation of having urine stained clothing on the skin right up against the skin one,

Sometimes they guarantee time you get rashes, and so then a mother would use they would get some kind of men occasion to put on the rash and you could. Then you know that's where you could get some digital world caught well, I think, to put it pretty as clean as we can would be to say that the reports out there state everything from a nick molestation to something as little as irritated skin that could come from your and stained clothes.

or, by those be be clear, vigorous wiping right, but let us be clear about this chronic molestation. This is not. There was no signs of their there's, no scar tissues to prove that she was molested for weeks and months and years, not true we're talking about the time of her death and probably once a couple days before. That's all they prove and also seems like there was, would fragments found in her vagina as well. I didn't personally see that in doktor myers reporter. I think I saw that from loose man. He does reference fibres broken as well. So again, this with this area of the body. It's it's really. It's up for the two debates

really, depending on who you talk to. This represents any number of things. What I feel that I've seen and heard the most, so I'm gonna throw this in the batch of general consensus would be they just, as you pointed out that this is something that occurred, either at the time of death or shortly before, and it could be thing from as terrible as digital manipulation or something more vigorous, wiping or not heighten unknown. I I'm ruin all that out what most of the medical examiner state as that that the choking which people so half hazard lee want to say is covering up fur for something

right, but that the choking of germany was is after the fact, and therefore its covering up an accident. Now the choking was not an accident, it was on purpose. It was not meant to kill her. It was meant for sexual gratification. So if you have a, they believe that there was molestation the time of her death, and I I think that's that needs to be fact to me, because it site you don't have one or the other and a lot of people think because there wasn't penetration with your penis, that the individual would be more likely to be young

or aid crazed or disorganize offender. You typically see that right in those types of of murder cases, so the report says a one centimeter red purple area, of abrasion, is located on the right path. Sterile saw him in a struggle of some of these words here an posterity lateral area of, though one I one centimeter high mental orfis. The hymen itself is rep Then it by a rim of tissue extending clockwise between the two and ten o clock positions, the air of abrasion is present at approximately seven o clock position and Here's to involve the hymen induced all right, lateral, valuable wall. We All that to point out that there is basically saying there's a small amount of data

judge or injury to that area, bruising one thing that is completely shocking in this whole cased, shocking to me capped is that it appears that linda aren't The pathologist who arrived on the twenty six to examine the body at the ramses home. And then several other people as well that nobody realise the this poor girl had been struck over the head. It's it's almost like it, took further detection that it wasn't. You know you have the shocking scene of the garage out of the cord wrapped up. On this little girls throat. Maybe it's the shock factor in you, you, you don't see what what might have been obvious, but all the report's I've read and stop me if you read any that that are different, but it sounds as if this head wound, which

this was a massive injury and we'll get into the details of it. But it sounds like site seen unnoticed Yeah, there's no blood, some massive pools of blood. Right and she had long blonde hair. I believe it was what she is too to pay sales or ponytail whenever they call that, while yeah mean, if you ve ever seen, one your buddies, they hit their head, especially when they have blonde hair it turns bloody, real, real, quick right what I'm getting at is. I don't know how much blood there was there wasn't right and I don't know. I would like to have a pathologist or a doctor sit down with me. And tell me the reason, why there's no blood Finally, one she's already dead or near death at the time

yeah- that's what most medical examiners when they look at their say, look there's a lack of blood, so we they believe in all other credible ones, the most credible ones, I've seen with this case state she was choked sexually it's for sexual ratification. The perpetrator was choking her either trying to touch her. Now. That would be random, now be as much most likely. They were touching themselves by their strangling her ah sheet. There's defensive wounds around her neck, meaning she's, trying to stop the choking At some point, some people believe that what it cut off the blood circulation to her brain.

I and there's some signs of that. They they believed through the autopsy, and so I can't remember what they call it, but it's basically where he your dad, I'm in it's a key. It happens almost instantaneously. yeah and so that they also believe that your normally, if some ace trying to strangle somebody in order to kill them. There's, a lot of marks that are left like in the net muscles restrains different bones and stuff, possibly can be broken with in the neck, and none of that is seen here. That's why they believe that these these bruises with inside the vagina arm from molestation

because the evidence of the choking doesn't like I said it doesn't seem like the purpose of the choking was to kill her and was to control her, so where it gets a little convoluted is a lot of medical examiners. Think that during this sexual gratification, given that the perpetrator then either freaked out or or got into it too much and hit her over the head with thing now. Other people believe that The perpetrator knew that they that she was dead because they also it also a temporal lobe bruising. the brain and that's com,

when somebody is when somebody shakes somebody after death right and sows. Somebody choke, sir, doesn't mean killer sake, sir she's dead, and then I think I believe that's when the blow to the head happen, because at that point The heart has stopped at one be pumping blood to the to the brain. Thou would be one of the reasons why we want to have poles of blood everywhere That is one reason. The other reason could be too is: do we how much broke skin. Do we actually have with this strike right and the interesting thing here too is the the use of the garage ought in them.

After that, it was used very likely could suggest that it's, it's not only a torture device, but it's also a sexual assault device where you're using it. Because that's what this this. Sick, I was into, and sometimes we see this a lot in a lot of cases that we ve covered specially with cereals, that they will often choke someone almost to the point of death and then allow them to receive air and then choked them again right when they believe that was happening with her because

there. There are signs of that for from the autopsy, but those, let's be clear. That shows like c b s's documentary on this case. It doesn't make any sense. You can't start off with the idea of that there was a a blow to the head. You cannot start that off. They believe this blow to the head would have made her brain dead should be unconscious minimum. And then because of the brain swell and the brain bleed should be brain dead and what happens if your unconscious or your brain dead? You do not put up a fight. If somebody is choking you, right. So let us be clear: no need to restrain the arms right from the perpetrators

perspective right and I know allowed people were going to sit there and say well, but but all that stuff is to cover up. some kind of action? It must be clear that sea, yes and everybody involved in that show were irresponsible putting out that information, it's just factually, not correct, and if you want to I don't know that you do this. You might have nightmares about this, but go look, go look at pics of germany ramses neck and see all those half moons of that six year old girl trying to stop some way from strangling her. So this idea that was burke acts daily hit or on the head or that or that during our changing of pajamas, changing the sheets or whatever that in germany's bathroom right that that that she slipped and hid her head org

tossed across the room by her mother or struck over the head with a flashlight to the credit, I guess of the of the people that believe bark may have killed his little sister, be an accident or whatever the skull fracture to me, does look like it could have came by way of golf club, it I mean it there's ike. If anybody looks at that picture and says I wouldn't think of If club could make that roger cosette strike, I would kill. Well then you're, you, you need to go, get glasses, my friend right, because it great up in the dimensions so less described. This, because not ever, he's gonna be fully aware of of this. The fracture, the all fracture is huge. It measures eight inches in length in the way that this works out is she

been struck on the top of her head, but it's more to the right so right, side of her head, yeah, yeah and the the actually runs from where the, where the impact hit on the skull and run all the way forward and then what you have at the top, where the impact took place, actually have a fool section that broke off it. It run eight inches in length total, but from where the point of impact, what we have here is picture school, where you have a crack that runs down the majority of the right side of the skull at the top of that crack. Where it stops, you have a basically a rectangle shaped, of the skull that fully broke off on all for sites and that peace itself is quite small. I believe it's one in it half inches by a half inch

that's the rectangle there and then from there you have You would have your remaining so it'd be six f inches of a fracture that runs from that broken peace, there, Yan and and cops we're lookin for this, this possibility as well, maybe not so much a golf club. It did look into that burke had a bad and then they did some tasks and then realize they don't believe that would happen through bat, not saying that the cops were saying that burke hit her in the head, but there are look

for objects. Yeah. Ah, then you have a bunch of tests done on the flashlight. Again, I think that's it's reasonable! To you see you have a bigger opening, bigger fracture. Then it goes to a thinner fracture, so maybe something like a a big flashlight. It would definitely have like the weight to it to to be able to do to be able to create that that type of fracture, but there's also a picture crime scene picture that. There's this now most looks. I got one of like a fireplace tool that would also be like if I were to walk around someone's home after seeing the the skull when the skin is pulled back and see the fracture itself. Ah, if I were walk around any one's home and like pickup instruments that I think could have. Of made that impact and left that mark right on her left that

action in that manner. I dont think I would go for flashlight, I'm nothing! It's impossible! go for flashlight, one gopher, bat, anything! That's a rounded doesn't seem to make sense. To me. I see something where you you need like. You need something where you're almost seeing the like that broken piece of the skull is the outline of whatever hitter and that tomorrow, at me, like yeah, like a fire place too, or a golf club. Anything like right, but if you look through the colonels on possibly at its one hundred percent has to be. You know that the markings of what hitter yeah object hitter, but it had to have had a look at the I mean. Well, let me finish. My thoughts are so first. If you look at the crime scene, photos there there, looks like some kind of fireplace tool. I don't know what you call those, but it's right under the current those

if the poker things that you play. Abbott is a whatever. You know how, like some people have like the the poker's and then they have the brushes and they have the a shovels and, and they have all different kinds of things. Okay right, it looks like there's wine and its underneath the open window, where the suitcases and you'd have to go through there's tons of crimes in photos, but to go through and you can see it lay on the ground. Now I can't it's blurry. I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I go we know where the we know where the paintbrush handle came from. It came from that room right that that was used in the eu we know that at some point She was in that suit case because we have all these fibers from her clothes that are in that suit case. So there were gonna use. Well, you you can say you know that I won't. I won't be on board with that. When I'm, not

convinced that she was in the suitcase ok. But what we do have is a suitcase with a bunch of fibres from the close every was wearing that night so well, again I don't know that they were the close and she was wearing that by the well. That's the report, that that I saw again, but that the end- I'm not sure I don't want to sound like I'm challenging you here, I'm I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying the information. I've reviewed doesn't state that same stuff right, but right where that suitcase, where that suitcases correct, underneath the open window, there's a crime scene photo that has some kind of object, and I just won't because have stated, we haven't, found the object of what hit her on the head right and here's, what This is what I question. Ok and all have to work on some order. Like lou smite, keep calm smith

it's like his analysis of the the intruder. Theory doesnt work. It starts with a stun gun, but what does the stun gun do composite? The person renders them unconscious some point right so merry likely to for a small person, we're not talking about a full grown right, all we're talking about a very small child, How long are they incapacitated for this rule out one and now I I could yet don't think any of us can say, because there's differing in others, varying degrees of even stun guns, but just as analysis. It doesn't make any sense, because if I go ok, I'm gonna go up to germany's bedroom, I'm gonna hit or with the stun gun. That's what's gonna. Allow me to take her downstairs. Ok at what point that she eat pineapple. So

while we should be clear here for those I dont know, there was a substance found in germany upon the the autopsy findings that suggest that she ate pineapple or a substance that resembles An apple shortly before her death by and it was none digested right and then we have I've seen further photos that have a ball of pineapple with milk, which I've never heard of my mother fed me pineapples is pineapple annabelle, I don't it's weird. I've heard of yogurt end cottage cheese, but never milk, I think its milk again.

Don't don't call me on that. But it's about my thought is: ok: okay, while smith loose metz, smite intruder theory have or get down stairs she wakes up she supposed to be met by santa claus. At some point she goes down stairs. She sits at the table. She makes herself some pineapple. Maybe she doesn't make yourself some pineapple. Maybe burke made himself some pineapple, but he went to bed. He didn't finish. It said she says there and decides how each piece of this that's. then shrewder would have to come in contact with her right or I guess she could. I woke up in the middle night, went downstairs ate some pineapple went back upstairs it's possible. Then you used the stun gun, but again the stun gun doesn't making sense, because once you start trying to control her with the grant, you need defensive

and I do want to point out here, though, to the purpose of the garage may not be yes, it's kinda all, but not in the manner that I think that some might be thinking. It could be straight up for sexual assault right, of control and I'm not going to go into it too much. I mean maybe on the record or something I don't feel comfortable discussing what the garage itself could have been used for, the thing I will put my stamp on here, though, well before we get into that lets point out that where the stun gun idea comes into play, is it there are pictures there were on fortunately, or fortunately, I guess, depending on how you want to look at its incredibly degrading to the victim's involved in this case, but actually photos were leaked to the press at some point and you can view them

online still to this day, based off of that, we loose smite who later says. Look you see these two little. What looked like little prong marks he's a disk. These came from a stun gun. Now You have other experts, you have doktor warner spits and I'm trying to think of what is most famous for he's. Cover he's done so many different cases, but we want our spirits where our listeners would know him. The best from would be from west Memphis three. He was the one that that later viewed the photos and said hey, these marks are bite marks from from turtles, so that that's that he says when he views these photographs. These are not stun gun marks there there, but he would expect what he's looking for. Stun gun basically is leaving an electrical burn type mark on the skin yeah. I says that what he sing it doesn't does not appear to be a burn to him.

I don't see that, on her back the marks on the back than allowed people think her, like maybe a train tracks set which would have been in the room that supposedly was molested in that's sort of thing. She has multiple scrapes and stuff on her back and marks on our arms and stuff like that. Basically that she was squirming during the time that she's molested and so could she got these marks on her back at that point. Yes, but the marks on her face to me. I see what looks like a burn between the two march. you would expect a good deal of struggle and squirming if, in fact, she will being choked and there was some type of sexual assault prior to death tat. This is what I said. I was gonna put my stamp on here. Captain bill, viewing the pictures of the skull I dont know: science

on a path apologist, I'm not claiming to be an expert. You take this for whatever you for what it is. It's it's dumb guy in a garage giving his opinion will now I said I should go, then should be my turn them. But what my appeal? It is based off of these photographs, the damage to the skull man. I don't think that bark would have had the strength regardless of weapon to create this type of damage in one single blow. This looks to me to be one single solid hit to the skull, I also agree go further and say I don't think seen pictures of germany's bathroom, the theory that patsy lost control and through or across the room in this, with some kind of head injury that occurred when she got thrown across the room or she hid her head on something after being slapped by patsy,

not seeing the patsy's innocent. What I'm saying is this in We did not come from anything like that, in my opinion, This is a single strike, a very violent strike to the head singles. I, with with a lot of strength behind in a lot of force behind the other I will say to, I beg anyone, Go out there and look up the garage or what they are called in a garage in this case, because What I see here this is one rare times in the case where you see some level of criminal sophistication and what I mean by that is this this weapon, this torture device here appears to me. This wasn't the first time whoever constructed this. This was not the first time that they put one of these things together, while most medical examiner call these. Not sophisticated YAP. Then these are not. These are not made by a nine year old

when I look at this, what I see, if you I would lie, If somebody would take the pictures it like, if I could go back and unseen them in somebody, could take away the words John bernay ramsay from the photographs hand him to me and go: oh, what's that? What's this from? What do you think this is? what I see their captain without any in clouding. My vision is an intricate torture device constructed for the sole purpose of section Assault yeah seems like most of the medical experts believe again during this sexual assault during this torture that this individual lost control and in the pit in her on the head. But at that point the brain wasn't pump. The heart was in pumping to the brain already that's a real thing, I guess

in strangulation that that will stop first in it slows it along the way. Yet it is still the person still alive technically, but there's no blood or oxygen pumping to the brain. Now, meaning she'd be brain dead. They hit her on the head because it lost control or as part of their fantasy or whatever. I think that's a very good possibility, but, like I said, we have fibers whether you want it, whether you want to believe so not because there's experts that contradict each other over and over, but there's fibers in that suit case, am I thought, is that this individual

for whatever reason the sexual gratification was gonna, be better for them. Ah, if they molested her inside the house, knowing that a family was there, there was excitement there once they figured out she's dead. That wasn't part of the plan than man some notes already sitting on the staircase ray I have to get her out of here. I am going to use the suit case to transporter. I put her in the suit case at this point no blow to the head. I think it's possible that individual put her in that suit case and try to lift her

up through that window and then dropped her and landing on our head? Yes, yes, the suit case would hit first but she's inside the suit case, and I think that's possibly what created that fracture. You pointed out. Something is very important in this case, and just with every aspect of this case, there are so many different, a pin and sir so many different, even expert opinions and regarding the autopsy itself, cause of death injuries to dominate how those injuries occurred, We ve had many very reputable good, solid exports over the years, examine this case, but what they examined have been photographs and what they have examined have been doc: minutes there has only been one pathologist to examine the body when that was

doktor myers empty and ninety ninety six, the for all of our old episodes, check us out exclusively on the de app and we have a weekly show unstinting premium caught off the record cheers the you captain in thing to everybody out there for listening. Thank you for telling a friend and thank you for all of the wonderful five star reviews. Please join us back here in the garage next week for episode. Five. Until then would be kind and.