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the where we left off yesterday. Captain eleven year old, jordan brown was arrested for murder. So what I want to do here at the top of this show is start off with the law. more background information on Jordan and his father went to go back to ninety ninety seven. This when his mother Mildred Kraus, was pregnant with jordan. During this time she filed a protection from abuse order against Jordan's father Brown Mildred allege that quoth, he drinks heavily. He uses drugs and he has such a temper when told him, I was going back to florida, he tore up my brother's room. He also try running me off the road. When I had the baby with me, he told

If I ever broke up with him, he would kill me and quote that is Mildred kraus, gordon brown's mother, a protection of abuse from chris brown. Now we have no way of knowing whether any of mildred allegations are true. Although she and Chris did split up very soon after jordan's, birth, Chris ended up with custody of Jordan. However, and mildred she unfortunately became sick with cancer. She says she gave up custody because she couldn't take care of jordan or give him a stable upbringing. Christen Jordan were very very and they did everything together. Jordan's uncles describe him as a normal boy who liked video games dirt bikes in hunting with his dad I was on a mighty mites football team at school. We are privy to his school records because those are sealed.

some people say he was just a normal kid and other say: Jordan was a bit of a bully after the murders can seize family started to tell Worries about jordan, Kansas brother in law, jason kroner recounted in epoch in which his own child told him months before the murders that he had been playing guns with Jordan and Jordan actually told my son that he wanted to do that to her, meaning he wanted to shoot kinsey and her girls. Gordon brown has eleven years old. Is it possible that he has a little bit of jealousy because he so close with his father and now these new people coming into his father's life and their drawing attention away from him? Well, that's exactly what kinsey family says they believe was going on. They said that there was an issue with jealousy. We should point out, that's not out of question

in one could see that that could be the situation he's eleven years old and very quickly. He basically a whole new family right. They ve only lived in that home for four months before kinsey was shot and killed and so on. Relatively short period of time, he's now not just living with this file. Other but he's living with his father. These two. girls anew Mom air quotes and a baby on the way and a new house, so his Little young life has changed dramatically in a very short period of time on once kinsey family brings up these ideas of jealousy law enforcement schooner adopt this theory. That seems right here. Captain the press Peter started, putting together a theory that Jordan wanted to get rid of kenzie and that

is likely jealous of the new baby wanting his father and his life all to himself whatever happen with this situation, where one of the kids tells of an adult that George wanted to do that to kinsey in the girls, while this seems too been lost on christen, kenzie right. They, if, if they were, relate this formation, they must have just denied it or dismissed and then we have. The situation did Jordan's attorney. They point out that Chris Brown had no idea that his son had a problem with kinsey and that's because they say he didn't have a problem with kinsey police also viewed chris browns girlfriend of seven years. This is important here, because we are working king about eleven year old. He lived with this woman for seven years. Law miller, Never chris brown dated her from two thousand to two thousand and seven laura.

Jordan very well and told police that her son, frank in Jordan, called each other brothers. Here are some excerpts from her recorded interview. Question. Did Jordan ever act out violently answer mostly he This cried question: how to Jordan get along with other kids. The answer was He was shy if he was by himself. He was shy when jordan and Frank we're together they were never afraid to meet other kids. How you get along with Jordan. This is really trusting to me, because this is another woman that he lived with for a much longer period of time. How did you get along with Jordan? Were you afraid of him? The ants as jordan called me mommy for more than six years, we loved each other. No, I was not ever afraid of man not to interrupt you, but we have to remember that jordan was calm, kinsey mom next question was frank: afraid of Jordan, no Frank loved him like a brother in haste,

does but lore also told police of one fight between Jordan and frank. When jordan was five years old and she says I remember on one occasion in two thousand and two, my son, frank, was playing with his toy xylophone phone and Jordan told him to quit. I told Jordan that he was just playing and that he could continue playing Jordan was set. on his dad's lamp punching his fist into open hand Some time later, Jordan got up and ran back into the bedroom and punched frank in the face Jordan than bit his own arm and said that Frank had it him. Jordan needed to learn how to deal with his emotions is what she said. Jordan. Credit when he was very young said he was shy, withdrawn and jealous over his dad

The time I knew him, he lied alot, even when car he would continue to lie. This next story is particularly horrible, so brace yourself get ready, put them ear balls in a seat belt, because in a bumpy ride, I wish I didn't have to say this, but quote I remember one time when Chris had found some mice in the trailer he put the mice in a bucket and went outside the trailer. When I saw them, Chris was throwing firecrackers in the bucket and both he and Jordan were laughing. My son, Frank was also with them, but he was crying and quote yeah. That's what you wanna do torture animals with your kid. Okay, so the police have their man over there boy. But now we need- to flesh out a case against him that will stand up in court, so police two everyone they could think of. One person of importance here captain would be the school bus driver who fur

Saul Jordan in geneva when they were about a third the way down the driveway walking toward the road bright. He said that he observed them. We down the driveway until they got onto the bus. He said when they saw the bus waiting for them. They both began to run toward the bus with jordan leading geneva by about ten yards. They did not act in any way. unusual. Nor did he observed Their of them leave the driveway or throw anything right, but it is just ass, a claims that she saw Jordan, throw something when they got towards that the driver the children got onto the bus, took their respective seats and behaved in a completely ordinary, fashion for the duration of the ride. Now, the only reason why I'm not gonna fully believe the bus driver again not saying that there are liar but the, but the problem

in in you know this. You rode the bus for many years as a student when the bus comes and the little stop saying goes out and there they're watching the kids there also watching the traffic beef behind them in front of them. So is it possible at some point this bus driver took their eyes off the kid and and jordan through something when, when the bus driver wasn't looking not to mention all the other kids on the bus. Yes, this is a very distracting job, a job that I am happy that I dont do so. I applaud those do that job. I don't know that I would have any hair left if I s job, but yes, so I can understand that it would be difficult for this bus driver to give a full account, but the account that he gave There you have it. He saw them for the entire time. They didn't behave in any way that, That was abnormal. He didn't see either child

throw anything or discard anything at any point. That's why I kind of circle back to the whole thing of I want these interviews recorded because we have the statements by trooper wilson, who says well in the second interview, Jordan hesitated and he's changing his answers, what I really would like to know is by that point. In the second interview he's made aware that his stepmother or soon to be stepmother has been killed, has been murdered if he is innocent. That means that, during the course of the first interview he's all unaware of any of that very important information. Now, if he's guilty, he is aware why the officer is interviewing him without being told that he's being interviewed, because his soon to be stepmother has been murdered by. I want that to be accorded interview, because I want to know, did this kid seem nervous, like beyond the point of Oh you're, just being asked random questions. Order

questions from a police officer. I would think then eleven year old boy that knew that information going into the first interview would have visible signs of being nervous hundred percent agree. I think if those interviews are recorded than we have demeanor yes, and I think that's really important and what we have here captain as we have the troopers going out of their way to explain his behaviour into detail behaviour during the course of the second interview, but we don't have the same for the first interview where he could have just been a I'm a little eleven year old boy that doesn't know something horrible has happened to his family. This is going to lead us new, the preliminary hearing, which is really kind of a mini trial here will be held on march. Twenty. Fourth, to determine if there was probable cause to bind jordan over for trial. The district attorney said of the evidence against jordan

have a shot gun blast. The back of the head. That's consistent with a twenty gauge shot gun shall I have a twenty gauge youth model in his room, which smells like its recently. fired he's got a gun residue on him. I think at this point, that's more than enough here: on describing the killing as premeditated and cold blooded. He said jordan shot kenzie, put the shot gun back in his bedroom through or hid the spent shell casing in the snow and then road, the bus to mohawk elementary school, which is nasa as if nothing had happened, seems like a be hard to act nor more if you murdered your step, mom or if you even accidentally, killed her. Yet again, though, I think what were pointing out, though, here captain I get what you're saying. Could this have been an accident that Certainly in the realm of possibility, the problem is when you start

bring up, your accident is now murder and if he or if he p, and a poke around down there with a gun. It's you, he still responsible for her death at the end of the day. Yes, but his actions of covering up to me would lean more towards his eleven years old and not twenty five, thirty year old kid trying to cover up murder, Kate, but that's not the picture that they're going to paint forests at his trial so had this trial, the prosecution will call ten witnesses. We have a trooper that testify that tests show that Jordan's clothing taken from his person on the evening of February twentieth. These are the same items that he wore to school. That day had gunshot right I do on them. He acknowledged on cross that the analysts report also stated that the residue this is important because you hear gunshot residue on the skin. You go all right. He did it. Let's lock them up in the

away the key bright, but on cross its pointed out that the gunshot residue could have resulted from any of the following three things: discharge

during a firearm standing near someone who discharge a firearm or coming in contact with a surface, they had gunshot residue on it. Another trooper testified that he found a twenty gauge, shot, gun and Jordan's upstairs bedroom and it smelled as though he had recently been fire and other trooper said that there was no evidence of a break in at all at the home. In fact, a want of cash was visible on a table in the bedroom and just play devils advocate, yes, no signs of break in because all the doors were unlocked and if your purpose there was to murder somebody than who cares about the money. That's on the table, exactly your exactly where you don't have to break ins, walk right in bright. Another trooper testified that when she first talk to jordan at school,

He said he saw black truck near the farmhouse that morning, but thought it was for a man who came to feed livestock. The trooper went on to say that in the second interview about ten hours later jordan story change, it was now a truck and there was a person any white hat inside who ducked down out of sight again. I think we both agree that, at its adding details to a story, I don't know how much it's the story, change correct. I I can leaned toward that. That argument. The testimony of trooper martin from a previous proceeding was also considered by the court, and I think that this I dont have the exact statements that they took from trooper martin statement, but I think that this might have been about the footprints in the snow, the kids prince the to children's footprints coming down the driveway worthy

lee ones around the house yeah. This is not a job in a ramsay situation where their say, hey, there's no footprints cause, there's no snow. There is all there is a lot of snow, so there should have been some kind of other footprints. Yet what I mean there wasn't a ton of snow, I guess, but the thing here- I have a hard time rapid, my head around here captain. Is it continued to snow right? So I mean I guess. Yes, if you could see the children's and were assuming it sounds like where assuming we, we can't say for certain right that those hard the footprints of the children, but there are two footprints sets a footprint on the driveway could Somebody of entered the home in the footprints gone undetected. That's the trouble troubling thing right, a killer! Does it next necessarily the walk up the driveway and go into the through the front door. There's four entrances to the home. This is a rural property someone

could. I entered the home from any direction on foot. The court ruled on march twenty nine two thousand and nine that there was in fact enough evidence to try jordan for the murders, yeah, jordan an eleven years old. Well, as we said captain, we have jordan brown who's going to stay in that juvenile facility. For several years we have the court records and all the motions and trials that took place we go through all of them here. While that will take us as long as jordan sat in that juvenile facility, so we're going to kind of skimmed through that and give you the important details now in this regard, there was a determination that there was in fact enough evidence to try jordan for these murders, their basically saying that we must abolition of evidence that the defended was the killer. he acted alone. The evidence in it?

it's that on the morning of the shooting, the father left for work, leaving the defendant, the victim kinsey house and her children, geneva and anna lindh, in the residents of the three children, only the defendant was experienced in fire a shotgun and removing an expended shell. There were no signs of forced entry into the residence nor any signs of a struggle, robbery or theft. As a result of the light covering of snow, it was observable that the only footprints were those of the defendant and janessa when they left for school. At approximately eight hundred and fourteen a dot m, there were no other footprints. higher tracts of any person or vehicle that would have approached the residents during the time in which the killing could have occurred. There to say that the defendant owned a twenty gauge shotgun, which was found in his bedroom, along with other gods of the six guns found in the

had room the defendants, twenty gauge shock and had the strong odour of gunpowder residue, indicating that had been recently fired, go back to that black truck. If there was a black truck there, whether it's the man coming to feed the animals or if it's just as similar black truck Where are the tire prints? Well and that's that's easily something that you can detect and get to the bottom of you go and interview the person that feeds the cattle right if he says he there than you go all right. Well, that explains away the black truck. If he says he wasn't there well, then we have a nor a whole another set of issues. If, in fact, a truck was there and, as you pointed out, where are they higher tracks for that truck. I dont not gonna, sit here and pretend that I have a group Understanding of the lay out of this property. Is it possible that there was a black truck there in for whatever reason later tracks are not detected. I think it could be, but again

not having a good understanding of this property, really limits ability to have an opinion on their now. Here's I get a little upset s, so they go onto site there, citing the evidence as to why we need to try this kid, for the murders and one of the pieces of evidence that they site here in the court record. I'll read from the core record here, because words are important: grammar says along the path of the footprints of the defendant from the residence to the roadway, was located a shotgun shell in pristine condition indicating it had been recently placed in that location. A ballistics report showed that the shell was fired from the defendant's shotgun. Let me repeat that listing report showed that the shot was fired from the defendant shaka. That is not true. That is a false statement. This is in the court record and it really

It pisses me off because the reality of it in the science of it is this statement is very incorrect tom, via what the ballistics showed is that it could have been fired from that gun, so to change the wording of that to say that it was fired from the guy. Is incredibly misleading pray. They go on a site, more evidence, gunpowder residues found on the clothing taken from the defendant at the time of his arrest. This was closed that he would have been wearing during the time frame of the murder. They go on the site.

The defendant was familiar with the use of a shock and having been observed to have loaded in unloaded a gun, remove spent shells and to have been successful and a turkey shoot just several days before the killing of the champion should in turkey back my day and there's one part here too. That upsets me as well, where they're saying that of the three people that would have been in the home. The three survivors, jordan, vanessa, adeline that he is the only one. Yes, we know that he operated a gun and he was familiar with with doing that, but they he was the only one that could do that which is again and incorrect statement right. It's not true. I think anybody with thing in an arms could operate a gun, yeah or people. With long toes, let me get this correct. He was told to move his guns that day. We don't know that according to genetic story, when she

seize him carrying guns down the stairs. She asked him why he's doing that to which he replies? My father told me to move them. Let us say that part of the story is true. He could remove those guns. That would be the reason he would have. Maybe this gun residue this gun powder residue on his person, that doesn't mean he fired the guy. That is a possibility. However, jordan statements do not back up that statement of Geneva he doesn't say at any time that he handled a gun that morning? In fact, he denies that's a big problem. I think in cases where your interview in children necessary, think that they're lying to cover something up. They just might not be taught you the truth. Well, Jordan would sit there almost

I dont want to say wasting away, but he sitting there in a juvenile detention facility before a bench trial could take place which took place in two thousand and twelve. The murder occurred in two thousand and nine jordan consistently and continually denied having anything to do with kinsey murder and his family. You know the brown cited family anyway backed him up on this now. There are many reasons why it took so long, but one really strain legal aspect to this case, that's important to the story, is as follows: october. Two thousand and nine Jordan's attorneys motion that his case should be moved to the juvenile court in march. two thousand and ten, which is over a year, after the murders. The transfer to juvenile court was denied because, according to judge motto, one no evidence connected any one else to the murders and to the judge agreed

the prosecution that, since Jordan, would not admit any guilt. His lack of contrition meant that he would be amendable to rehabilitation in the juvenile system per the law in pennsylvania, one test of whether a criminal proceedings should remanded to juvenile court is whether the child has accepted responsibility for the under lining offence as a result of jordan browns lack of acceptance of responsibility. He continued to insist. He did not do it. The judge concluded that the defence had not us ablishn the jordan was amendable to treatment and therefore was not appropriate for the juvenile system, so what does all that mumbo jumbo mean per a law?

review article that we read about the law applied by judge motto quote pennsylvania's juvenile transfer statue puts the child and a type of catch. Twenty two. Admit to the crime and be tried as a juvenile or maintain your since, and be tried in the adult criminal justice system, which is complete, Bullshit yes, says the same thing they do with like probe hearings all well. If I'm tired You that I didn't kill this person, but you want me to accept responsibility or you won't pearl me right the urine a no win situation now it. take until march of two thousand and eleven. So now we are over two years pass the murders that this rolling got overruled Basically, there saying this is a violation of georgians. Fifth, amendment rights against self incrimination right admit to it

and get tried as a juvenile or maintain your innocence and go fight it out in adult criminal justice court giant path we're so the reason they all of this is so important is because under pennsylvania law, if jordan were remanded to the juvenile system, instead of the adult system, he would remain in the juvenile system. Only until his twenty first birthday. That's if he's found guilty the but our core only has jurisdiction until twenty one. At that point, he's eligible for release, if he's trying victim as an adult. He could spend the rest of his life in prison, the the

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a reminder if you're not following us on instagram, facebook or twitter, you want to do so. You can find us on any of those platforms at true crime garage. I will be sharing photos not only of the people of the case, but also a few of the pictures of the property, so you can a sense of what we're talking about the attorney general or the aid jeez office would be in charge of prosecuting the case, the case against georgia brown. They started off. The trial- and we would end up having about three days of testimony during this trial, but they started off the tree by reminding the core of all the evidence. Had been relied on in the previous hearings,

reminding them that we, the state, established that a juveniles gun was used to kill the victim. Gunshot residue was on Jordan, shorten pants. The police focused on him because he was the most likely perpetrator. All other possibilities were eliminated. ok. I'm gonna stay on this and I'm sorry if I upset anyone, but I'm gonna stay on it because it really upsets me, you get em goat boy, again, here's the line we stand. That a juveniles gun was used to kill the victim. No, you establish that a gun was used to kill the victim, not a gun that was specifically built for a juvenile to use. Again. you can control thought by manipulating language, if you can control language, you essentially can control thought and by choose to use these words and putting out incorrect statements and sentences at the time,

while you are painting a much different picture, it was established, shot gun was used to kill the victim, not that juveniles gun was used to kill the victim. That prosecution explains why other possibilities were eliminated. Yes, they say, for someone to be the killer other than join brown. The ages office they would have had to know where the family lived, which was a remote location that they had not lived in very long. They had. It that the gun was captain Jordan's, upstairs room now that the ammunition for that gun was kept in kinsey room successfully go into her room without

making her get the ammunition kill her. In return, the gun to Jordan's bedroom, the person would have had to have left without leaving footprints or tire tracks all of this with in a half an hour. Ok, so let's clear some that up! Actually it was an hour. It wasn't a half an hour right. Let's get our words right here, we're talking about sentencing somebody to prison for the rest of their life eleven year old, and again the wording on this they would have had to have known where the family lived. Ok, I get that they would have to have known that the gun was captain Jordan's upstairs room again, you ve not establish that that gun is the actual murder weapon right

oh, that the ammunition for the gun was kept in kinsey room again, you ve not establish that the ammunition they came from that are more actually is the ammunition that killed four killed her. What we do know scientifically captain is that gun could have been used to kill her. The ammunition could have been used to kill her right and that we know that the fire arm was fired right, Suddenly there presenting all this is fact, went out all actuality. It just possibility swan hot on a sector where they say things like the defences. Maybe maybe they didn't miss this but day he fire and kill some turkey recently. Yet he was it a successful at that turkey shoot. That was six days before him around the defenceless, what I'm arguing that's when the fire arm was fired. So basically, the eighties office is saying that someone inside the house is responsible

and there is no other reasonable suspect and he is the only reasonable suspect I'll try to bring this up. For the last time of this case. I agree with you so much on the interviews being actually taped to know what his demeanor was. That first interview would have been crucial. May also pointed out that premeditation existed in this murder, because once genesis saw jordan with the gun, he went back upstairs and covered it up with it blanket before coming back down. He also took a shell from the box downstairs. This required deliberately loading the gun to shoot kinsey. So, basically, if you have any length of time. You're doing all these actions to shoot her. This proves that its premeditated whoever used the gun to kill kenzie then put the gun back upstairs again. We ve not one hundred per

satisfied me or any body that that was absolutely the gun that was used. Basically, what they're trying to tell us here captain is this: is it that morning for whatever reason it could have been the jealousy a whole lot of other reasons. We don't know this eleven year old decided. He was going to go downstairs with his gun that he recently got as a christmas gift and shoot his soon to be stepmother s and that he called mom they're saying that he put a blanket the the blanket that was later found with the whole on it over the gun so that he could conseil the shot gun, either from his from the girls living in the house or from kinsey herself right? He has to go into her bedroom.

where she's lying on the bed, asleep open up the arm war, take out a shot gun. Shell load, the gun, put it to the back of her head, pull the trigger, then go back upstairs wipe the gun down unload the shell do the hope you poky put those shot gun back in its place, covered up the orange blanket along with the other five guns and then, as he's leaving to go catch the school bus with John S, a he then throws down the the shell, some of the evidence at the house being the blanket but the hole in it and the blood that is on the frame, the door frame, which is the front entrance to the home, to which Chris brown has already told investigators, nobody in the house ever used the front door and, according to geneva and jordan brown, they went out the side door that morning. So, yes, maybe he could have touched the door frame.

Prior to leaving the house a day, but according to their statements, they went out the side door right when that's both of their statements, sir That's dna evidence on the on the blanket do we know that the whole is from a gunshot? Well, that's where we get to Jordan's defence, so his defence team is going to do their best to contradict the quota co evidence presented by the prosecution. They acknowledge that the shell found was consistent with jordan's gun, but there was no evidence that it was actually hired by that gun. The guns smelling like gunpowder could be residual from the turkey shoot. The blanket was subsequently subjected to microscopic examination in chemical testing and no gunshot, residue or blood was found on it. This is important because, according to their theory, the hole in the blanket is big.

He left the blanket concealing the shark on as he shot her that's only reasonable explanation for this hole in the blanket. Why would they be blow back, spatter org, shot residue their theories wrong on this gun or on the blanket, more importantly brain, they go on to say that fingerprints or dna, linked jordan to anything This is one that its tricky. For me, it sounds good for the defense. No dna, no fingerprints link him to anything so meaning novel. France or dna, was found on the gun. I actually have a big problem with that and a big problem with it for the defence. If this was his gun in it used it recently. I would expect turkey to fine fingerprints, his finger prints on the gun, but you did not

that actually to me suggests that possibly this gun was used for the murder, and maybe somebody white. This gun down before returning it to its rightful place, yeah a wiper. Yes, our found on Jordan was microscopic amount. There was one particle on each of his shirt and pants and of course, we ve already been told that is possible that that could have been transferred from. Another item or another surface, and they point out specifically his winter coat as we know that he wore that same winter. Co at the turkey issue just six days before they also pointed out that the family routinely use the property for target practice. So spent shells were all over the place and police found a couple of them on the property Jordan had no prior juvenile record or history of violence. He was close with his father and had no mental issues or diagnosis, and it's not realistic

think that any eleven year old is sophisticated enough to carry out this crime while leaving so little evidence behind. That is the defences are there's so many moving pieces and parts to this case. It's almost like law enforcement dismissed any idea of a intruder theory. To begin with, I like to know more about the people that were in kinsey his life, while that's a good segue here captain, because have another suspect for you. We say that they exhausted all other possibilities. Well, one thing that was not clear was how much possible emphasis, Jordan's defence team, placed on other possible suspects at this trial, and there was probably good suspect here, there's one that at least raise some eyebrows. I know that and the day of,

murder february. Twenty two thousand and nine, the state police put out an a p b for an atom. Harvey harvey was kenzie acts of six years. and police were well aware that the two of them had a fraught history. The time of the murder kinsey her parents, her sister Anne, brother in law all had a three year protection from abuse order against Adam Harvey. This was issued after an incident in february of two thousand and eight. This is a year before the murder, when harvey, who was living in north carolina called kinsey, mother and threatened to take her whole family out. This was the second protection order,

issued. The first was issued in may of two thousand six after kinsey reported that harvey abuse her and said things that involved threatening to kill her or have her killed by his friends. He also physically attacked kinsey and he and his brother threatened to kill her after this lindsey and harvey reconciled and then move to north carolina, but soon he resumed his abusive. and began accumulating guns, Kenzie left him and took Geneva and Adeline who was born while kinsey was in the relationship with harvey and moved back to wampum new galilee to be with her family harvey move back to that area in october of two thousand and eight. So that just months before someone killed, Kenzie harvey lived within ten miles of kenzie. Chris Brown testified that he and can

he deliberately chose to have an unlisted phone number at the house. They rented to make sure that harvey could not contact them. Chris, once listen to twelve voicemail Adam harvey left for kenzie, which he repeatedly threatened her and her family. Well, that's twelve voicemails too many. He also left numerous voicemails for her mom and Debbie, threatening kenzie and everyone else. So very clearly, Kenzie was afraid of her ex adam harve. This little piece of evidence or a nugget of information. I think, is really important. That two weeks before the murder harvey received the paternity test. failing that, the four year old daughter that he thought was his was not his exactly and the other thing we should note here as well is that Adam harvey drove a black pickup truck old ship bag. Did track him down now mind you. This is interesting on.

same day that she's martyred they put out an a p, be for this man they're looking for him, that's where there I'll go to immediately after finding her killed, regardless of what we are seeing at the scene, all these things They say later pointed to an inside job. Now they tracked him. On an voluntarily he spoke to the police or that's the statement that we have is that he voluntarily came to talk to the police. This was after the police. Confronted him at an intersect they noted that his black truck had a light coating of snow on it and the snow was dirty harvey, taken to the state police, barracks and interviewed at twelve. I'm sorry- and are viewed around to twenty p m. On the day of the murders, he admitted that he was surprised by the paternity test results and then and kinsey argued over child support payments, but he told me he said he didn't know where kinsey lived and besides

said he had an alibi for the morning of the shooting he had been at home in the basement of his parents house, where he lived since ten p m. He says the this evening, and that the only way out of the house was through the upstairs through an upstairs nor where his dad was his dad would have seen him leave and his father says that he never saw harvey leave between ten p m the night before and the timing clash, idolizes alibis Spousal alibis or family alibis, ah nope- I don't, I don't buy him an alibi to me per the court record. Harvey's hands were tested at the time by investigators for presence of gunshot residue, but none

detective detected, based on his proffered alibi in the presence of snow on the truck which the investigators opinion suggested that he could not have driven to wampum a distant a distance of about eight to ten miles away and then back without all the snow coming off, so they say that the snow evidence on his truck no guns residue on his person and the alibi at his parents, home seems to be enough: them to have moved on from from harvey, but he could use the blanket himself and therefore there would be no gun residue on his person. Yet possibly I'm just a little confused? Why there's no scientific evidence on the blanket itself at it makes right you can't. I dont think you can have it both ways right. You cannot say that he you, to conceal the shot gun and I'm assuming their statement is that he can

new to cover the shock and when he fired it and that's how the blanket got the hole in it, but the problem that is. Why is there no gun, evidence or blood evidence on that blanket when you're telling, the pathologists saying that the gun was too inches or less from the victim when it was fired it just. It doesn't ring true can't have it both ways, so either that blanket has nothing to do. With the murder. At all I mean that's what the does. The scientific evidence would suggest

or it was not used in the manner that they are implying that it was you. I see our blog posts blowing up this week and that such crammed with her eyes tat come. I can't get over the fact that this guy one ex boyfriend he's abusive but can't get over the black truck jordan has seen. I saw this black truck. It's not the guy thy normally see in a black truck that similar to this and the fact that Jordan told people about this black truck before he was even interviewed by law enforcement. Yeah. It's difficult in this whole case, me is difficult because of the evidence or the lack thereof, and again it goes back to well. How do you paint the picture and the way that they paint? The picture is as such that it was that gun in his room. That was you

It was the ammunition that was in kansas room that was used to kill her and because of those factors, those key factors, and then genetic saying I saw him with the gun and I saw him chuck something into the yard when we ran to the bus, while than that makes him your prime suspect, how However, in reality, is it's never proven that that was the gun that was used? It was never proven that that shell casing. Was the ammunition that was used to kill kenzie. You have genesis changing store Is she seven years old? Is it possible that somebody entered the home through an unlocked door shot and killed this woman and then turned around and walked out and for what a reason, nobody detected tire tracks are footprints. The bullet seeing that they found in the yard that jordan, brown chocked. According Geneva as they ran out to the school bus was fine.

And underneath snow so itself, I'm not crazy, to think that there is potential of other evidence. It was then covered by snow after the murders, in my opinion, because the prosecution controlled the language controlled, the narrative, that's how they got the guilty verdict that they got against Didn't brown, yes, he's found to be guilty, and after the trial we have jack houck, who is kinsey his father, who called jordan evil. He stated quote. I hope he gets the help he needs. The kid's got a problem and we have her mother Debbie, who told the media he's guilty. Only reaction is yes, he should have been found guilty, but it ain't bringing back kenzie and the baby. so, Jordan is remanded in custody of the juvenile facility until the age of twenty one.

Under state law during his juvenile treatment join, would receive counselling and also be evaluated every six months for possible release, purred the juvenile act. Every six months, the judge gets in effect a progress report on the child to determine

If jordan is fully rehabilitated and releasable, but at the latest, he would get out in august of two thousand and eighteen when he would be turning twenty one years of age. This is one of the things that makes the case so difficult, because if you believe that jordan brown is responsible for the murder of his step, mom and his half sibling that him getting out of prison when he's twenty one is not justice and that Jordan brown got away with murder. On the other hand, if you don't think jordan, brown is responsible for the murders and you believe suspects like Adam harvey should have been looked at

who, more than you can view that situation is adam, harvey, getting away with murder. Well and after the conviction, we're gonna take Jordan's case all the way up, the courts as they say, and work appeal this and were an appeal that and we're in a challenge the rolling we're going to challenge the verdict am continue to plea our case. The jordan is innocent and did not commit this murder. Now Jordan's arguments to the supreme court are as follows that the gun in the shell in regard to the gun and the shell, the supreme court, agreed with Jordan that the evidence of the record did not support the juvenile courts. Conclusion that the twenty gauge shot gun recovered from the ups

here's bedroom was the murder weapon. The supreme court agreed that the twenty gauge shot gun shell, which was recovered from an area in which jordan in his father had routinely shot. Such weapons on previous occasions was found, buried under snow covered ice and leaves raised a doubt as to whether it had been fired from shock shotgun on the day of the murder. Also, the school bus driver did not see him, throw anything further. Jordan in his arguments to the supreme court points out did. The firearms expert could not directly linked the pellets recovered from the victims body to the shot gun taken from Jordan's room, the two He ran showed only that the pellets recovered from the victim skull were quote consistent and quote in their size. Shape, wait material with the pellets and the unfired shot gun shell located inside the armor,

firearms expert testified that smooth bore shot guns, unlike rifles or pistols, have no, you need grooves in their barrels, enhance they do not produce any. identifying marks on shot guns. Shell pellets discharge from a particular shot gun. As a result, he could not perform, an individualised comparison. Analysis of the pellets which were recovered from the victims body with the pellets in the box of shells, Loki did in the armor. That's a really long way of saying they were not able to determine if that ammunition, was used to kill her right, which they said their theory that they presented at court that ammunition did killer there, also not able to prove that gone was fired on that day that the gun was used to commit that murder they presented it as it was in

Basically, what we're going to end up having here captain, because I could go through about seven or eight more pages of this stuff in the end, what they are going to determine is that these dumps. They don't necessarily way stronger one way or another do that they don't necessarily suggest guilt or innocence they're, all kind of just fifty. Fifty these are the facts so the case. Yes, there were guns in the house, a civil. type gun was used to kill the victim. Yes, there was ammunition in the house. A similar type ammunition was used to kill the victim, but you can't put all these together and string them along and say that, yes, this happy This was used in this used by this person to kill this person can't way, one way or the other

an opinion or a determination of the facts, hold onto your seat for one of the most frustrating indians of a case so, like we said he was charged, he gets out of prison charge trading convicted yes, but because of these appeals here, captain, what we end up with is the supreme court of pennsylvania. The westward western district would ultimately hand down a verdict in two thousand and eighteen. This is after nine and a half years of legal back and forth, and three appeals. The court unanimously wow Jordan's conviction, overturned the original guilty verdict. The supreme court ruled that the commonwealth evidence was insufficient.

As a matter of law to overcome jordan's presumption of innocence? In fact, the court concluded the forensic evidence and witness testimony could go either way being that they were consistent with two possibilities: his guilt and his innocence, but by them throwing out his conviction, you would think that the state than wants to go after a different suspect, but doesn't see Might the states do much to solve this this case? Well, the it's really uncommon. For this too, even go down on the way that it did to begin with, and although the court did not go so far, even though they throughout his can action. They didn't go so far as to declare that jordan was innocent. It did reverse the juvenile courts adjudication of his delinquency, because there was not enough evidence to convict him again.

A rare occurrence, but because he had already been tried for. the murders now double jeopardy is attached in jordan cannot be tried again. So he's free, as you said, but he was actually already released before they overturned his conviction as it turned out pursuant to one of the every six months. Reviews that were called for by law. When george was found guilty, He had already been released when this ruling came down. He was released in june two thousand and sixteen at the age of eighteen. He was released from juvenile custody custody and placed on probation and the custody of an uncle who lived in a hurry. yo when he turned twenty one he would be released from the probation, so he got out of got out of prison was on this programme.

Action and would have been off of the probation when he turned twenty one, but before that the supreme court ruling changed everything again, They overturn his conviction and he would no longer have the guilty verdict hanging over his head or on his record, but its unsatisfying edna capped at all. She said this whole case, This whole story all of the trials of the legal stuff, the shifting it's all very unsatisfied. Because at the end of the day we don't know who is responsible for these murders. The state spent so much I'm telling us the jordan brown was the one responsible for these murders and then the defence in the appeals process. as later tells us well. We can't they determine who in fact was responsible well, basically telling us that Jordan, we can determine if he is actually responsible just that there is not enough evidence to

Convicted so now you have, if you were to present this story, this real life, true crime story to a room of one hundred people, you're gonna, have fifty of them. They say he's gill is hell and he got off easy and you're gonna have the other. Fifty people that probably gonna say they didn't find the right guy. They didn't get the right. Guy and the real killer is still out there, but after present, in all the evidence, is there something that sticks out to you that may be sways you one way or another. There are severe concerns. I have about some of the statements and possible evidence in this case. First off, I don't like the contradicting stories of. Jordan and the bus driver in jordan story. Dns is ahead of him when he sees this truck, that's parked by the garage when the office

ask him. Did you tell Geneva about the truck he says I attempted to, but I dont think heard me because she was too far ahead of me by this point. The bus driver says when he sees the kids running the driveway to get to the bus that Jordan was in front of geneva by about ten yards. According to the buster engine s story, she says that she saw jordan, chuck the shot, gun shall or chuck something down toward the ground while they were running on the driveway. Well, if jordan is behind her, she can't see him chuck anything so When we have three people telling us the story here

actual if we are to believe that only one of them would be lying or believe that there's consists inconsistencies in their story. Well, two of their stories are matching up and that's not jordan's version of those stories. What's matching up is genesis version along with the bus drivers version of that story. So that doesn't look real good for jordan. In my opinion, I have some very strong questions about that part of the story. I also major concerns that I've already voice time and time again about this blanket that was found were told by the state that it was a big part of the case and a big part of the murders. Yet there is no sign if it evidence to suggest that it had anything to do with the murders at all, so that, real kind of convoluted part of this story, the other thing

that I want to point out too, that we pointed out in episode one day that we talked about briefly, but we didn't go into detail of. We have the story of annulling the that changes throughout the years. When she originally folk with police on the day of the murder, now mind you she's four years old, I right. So we need to take this with a grand assault, but when she spoke with the officers on the day of the murders. She said that she was up for a while, she watch tv, she ate some food in the kitchen, and then it was when she heard her mothers phone rang. Does she went in kinsey room to find her dead when she tells the story to twenty. Twenty years later she As this she wakes up to a loud boom which would be possibly a shot gun blast I dont know, I can't make heads or tails of which one is is corrected. It doesn't did she

here: shot gun, blast, wake up and then eat some food watch tv for a little bit and then does not go into the room until the phone rings. That's a possibility, but The stories changing and in the problem of having little kids basically. looking out the blanks for you has really left me kind of confused in this story as to what I think possibly happen, the black truck because jordan for the easily said here, the black truck, there's a guy that comes and feeds the animals. That's who I saw you didn't say that he was a step further and said it looks like the same trot, but it wasn't that guy and the fact that you have a protection order against abusive asshole,

Already threatened to kill her and her family multiple times. That would lead me away from jordan being guilty, but I think this case is that clear cut and I think you could study this one for a very long time and flip flop on on whether you thought he was innocent or guilty. I don't think it's that clear cut in this case. It's not

it had definitely is not in his one that I have struggled with for the past week. I will leave everybody with this. One of this is a crucial element in the case, I believe and, as we pointed out an episode one, the time frame. The timeline is very crucial to this case and every minute counts and we have the story. This comes from jordan when he's first ass by the officers from. Trooper Wilson's report quote when asked what time it was. Jordan brown stated that they usually leave the house at eight twelve, but since his mom was telling them they needed to go or they were going to be late. He stated that it was probably eight hundred and thirteen or eight hundred and fourteen everyone statements are. The bus came to pick them up at eight hundred and twelve to eight hundred and fifteen. Every

One thing that I think is very interesting and I wonder why it is missing from the trial was. The geneva was never asked to testify about her statements about that morning, and we do know that those statements seem to have changed your morphed through the course of multiple interviews. She's not asked to testify what she witnessed that morning And I think that that is key here, because if you really believed her, if you were the state- and you really believed everything that she told you- which was one of the things that led to the arrest of jordan brown, wouldn't you use that in your arsenal against the sky to convict him. The obvious answer is yes, but they did not. Why?

Does she at any point? Did she at any point back up jordan statement of well? I heard. Kinsey yell, I heard my mother yell that we were going to be late, that we need go outside or we're going to be late or we're going to miss the bus. If she were to back up. gordon brown statement, then that would it gave him approximately two to three minutes to go upstairs retrieve the gun cover it with the blanket go. Downstairs find the ammunition loaded pointed to the back of her head pull the trigger and geneva does not, here: the shot gun go off and then he goes back upstairs, unlike The gun wipe sit down, puts it away and then runs out the front door and chucks the shell casing. As he's running to the bus gets on the bus and then behaves like nothing happened at all, it seems very.

very doubtful to me. The dac could have went down in a matter of two to three minutes, whatever side of the fence you're on whether you think he's guilty here, send somebody got away with me: the This case leaves a lot of questions. You want to hear your thoughts and opinions go through, crammed grudged outcome and leave those on the blog colonel. Do we have any recommended reading this week for the beautiful listeners this week we are recommending,

spy in the trader, the greatest espionage story of the cold war by Ben Mcintyre. You're gonna love this book. I'm about about halfway through this one here captain and excited to recommend it to every one out there so check out the spy in the trader, the greatest espionage story of the cold war by Ben Mcintyre. You can find that great title and many more recommendations on our recommended page. A true gram garage dot com

till next week. You beautiful people be good kind and don't let it coming it at five point, three issues, its noble

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