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the the the a very glad to be here in the garage with two experts on the job in a ramsay caisson experts, on the city of bolder around

the time of the murder as well. The gentlemen joining me today are brothers, the xl brothers, Jim and frank, and they ve been. Looking at the jonbenet ramsey case, almost since day, one. So they started looking at this case early nineteen. Ninety seven one thing there I really enjoyed, and I thought was a breath of fresh air when we first met for the first time guys, you told me about something: You call the border syndrome, could you explain again- to me, what that is into are wonderful listeners, what it is that you called the boulder syndrome thanks for your happiness on neck. We appreciate the tide we make other this syndrome, that's what are original theory morphed into

in january of nineteen. Ninety seven, we devised our own theory about the case. We called it the sex ring theory. We do not believe that china, patsy ramsay, killed their child, but maybe were involved in something which put their daughter in harm's way and lead towards that. That was our theory and as we walked into bolder, as the days went on the weeks the months the years we started, Finding out that there were all these cases and we were getting bits of information about things that not many people knew about and involving child sexual abuse, so it for us, it became bigger than the jon benet ramsey case, and we call it the boulder syndrome. We use the word syndrome

because in medical terminology, what is a syndrome is a series of symptoms that repeat over and over, and that's what that's, how we view bolder that they have. They have had a pedophile problem in that town for decades. Yeah. It's always been painted bolder as this perfect town, but there is in an extremely dark side to it, underneath the surface it the dark and that's what I found so amazing, some of the cases that you guys pointed out to me. You know we have lauren schiller's book and I think it's a fantastic booking. Monica was a lot of the events in the movements about this early on perfect murder, perfect town, been a and the city of bolder, but as you guys, equally pointed out to me not so fast there nick. This is not the perfect.

And here's. Why so? Let's? Let's take the listeners through some of the the child. Sex, some of them, the grocer, more disturbing things it we're going on in boulder, starting with the slush, ok slush, a case. This was a case that started early on and hunters career so hunter alexander, the district attorney, who, at the time the rams you murder, he was elected into office around nineteen. Seventy two- and this case happened in nineteen. Seventy seven new at a man, the name of floyd david slasher, arrested in nineteen, seventy seven forearm, molesting boy scouts.

and we found out about this case when the boy scouts release their files about pedophiles who had worked for their organization and we pretty much when they did that we pretty much guarantee that we will definitely find a ball the connection and we found Floyd David slasher sold? He rested in seventy seven. He was convicted on one count of sexual assault on a minor and he was sense one day to life, which I had them heard of before, but any served about six years now as we started digging in to semester slasher, we found the the investigating officers notes. This was an officer do true of the color of the sheriff's office.

while the county sheriff's office and the things he wrote about slasher were incredible. For example, this is a quote from the hand with notes that seventy seven case, the chose stated that he quote learned of many victims too numerous to interview so right dad. I gives your paws. What do you mean that they were too? Numerous the interview even interview, everybody. There were so many- stop so that was problem number one and add to chill also stated that slush or sexually approached every boy scout troop intrude. Seventy five and seventy three at chose victims outside of scouting as well. It is evident, however, that slush

through his sexual assaults, assaults on young boys has affected many young lives and the most distressing part of it was wanted to travel stated. Parents of one of the victims may have been directly promoting a relationship between their son and the aspect that is in what the old terminology that we use. Two or more people involving you know that are involved in abusing a child is called the sex ring. That's what we always called it and still do today. You call it human trafficking. So this case ends up he's arrested, for several counts and hunter and his office. Please him down to one cow. Now: the parents of the other kids were outraged

but hunter tried to come them down, but saying look if if we charge them, if we, if we do all aid It's gonna come out to the same sense and that was said to kind of keep the parents at bay. But what the parents didn't know about, where the handwritten, not by officer to troll, hunted, didn't have to play them out. He could have went back to the well and interviewed the numerous amount of witnesses that they didn't interview and you could have hidden us a slew of charges and kept him in isn't for a much longer time, but that didn't happen and that for us where it starts, I'm sure, there's cases before seventy seven, but you're gonna see a common theme with

everybody batches the police department and we do to, but the district attorney's office they're the ones we're really at for an arc an end flushes. when he was initially arrested in all the the acts that he can daddy. Is accused of being committed at the time that they were atrocious horrible. But yet you had people. Come to his defence. You add professors, write letters to the judge, you add lawyers that will not represent him obviously, but they were writing letters for him to be lenient, if not straight out, released They wanted him released on bad if he could believe it this end and slush? It did this by the he did all this by the ripe old age of twenty four years old.

Are they usually start? They? Usually? The statistics will tell us that they usually start that late teens early twenties age, for this type of behaviour, this these type of growth- actions and crimes and in what we are seeing here is, I think, with this, sure case. I look at that one and I go well. Then this is showing me that either the these these molestation cases and I dont- know the details of some of the the crimes a he committed, but the station cases especially in the seventies, they were handled a lot different we back then than they are today and and so that there could be a little a sign of the times kind of thing, but I think you're right. What were what going to sea with some of these cases is, is either a summit a disconnect where, where we're not we're, not convicting these people to the fullest extent of the law

and why. Why are we not doing that and when, once behind that, so that? Let's move forward guys to to eighty four I believe I was nineteen. Eighty four, the cid wells case I believe it was nineteen eighty three neck. It was the murder of sin wells by the the person arrested for the murder. His name was thin smoker and This is where you gonna hear how Alex hunter. handled. It wasn't just the ramsey grand jury that he was kind of messing around with he. He screw with the cid wells, grand jury and made deals and just a touch on because we're gonna actually get to that. Maybe touch on what those cases

when you said that in the seventies they handled cases different in boulder, it never changed right, from the seventies teddy eighties Nine these and after they works that district attorney's office. That's all I did was make crazy plea, bargains and pedophile case and will touch on that. As for things, may go sit Was he brought faint, and as a roommate tell pay, the rent fame was usually labour. The rent, which said whilst complained about and was a bit of a drug user, also a drug dealer and the brother of sit well, my capping.

Came home one day and found his brother shot in the back of the head with a shock so that in and things my girl isn't there. He had left a note on the tables stating that he was elsewhere. Wanna be back to assert. Time. That was his kind of his alibi, look was his shot gun. He left the no on top of the blood, so he was arrested by they did something very, very strange. He made an he made a deal. He had a grand jury formed to investigate the case, and it was just here, He made a deal that was so strange that the attack work on the case were unaware of it, and after was over, they actually looked into saying.

If alexander committed illegal acts by doings. He worked hunter and smokers attorneys agreed in writing that the grand jury, Convened to investigate the case would not indict smoke. That was the deal hunter made with small his attorney, and they also agreed that smike, his mother and sister would not be called as witnesses. Why? Because smike its own mother said he did them are so what happens they make that, and in exchange smugglers attorney allows smuggled to remain in police custody. Even though no charges are for Willie filed against them they only have so much time to hold them. then they will listen. He sticks around bowled for a period of time and then he disappears and to this day there still

That's how Alexandre handle lackeys, let's ouch forward and go to the downs broke case. Bruce doubts borough ah, was working for the university. tennessee, when he was arrested in twenty thirteen- and he was quote in this world wide investigation. It was called projects spade and the projects spade- was they were investigating the canadian film company called as our films and this This as our films they were entered, they were into are child torture. Pornography so threw stones. Rural was caught up ass. He was arrested, knows some other people arrested, nessa you! senator Lamar alexander's chief of staff. His name was jesse ryan larkin. He was also arrested, but here committing suicide. There are about three hundred and fifty people

in total that were arrested in this investigation. In going back to doubts, bro about twenty thousand images there computer- and this is some of the most brutal stuff, the the abuse and torture of toddlers. It I'll rip, really horrific material those brow. This is where it he was arrested in tennessee, but there's a tion. It goes back to bolder colorado. Oh and downs. Brow was arrested in boulder cholera. I know in nineteen eighty six, I'm sorry. If I am, I don't mean to jump over yet or go ahead. You know in the eighties bruce downs bro lived, you know in boulder and the surrounding area, and he worked at the college of boulder in the grants department go ahead. Jim themes, my luggage juliette. He lived there and then any was a lawyer and he moved molested. Two boys

Pleaded guilty to sexual assault. child and sexual assault. On the third degree, obvious did, The common pattern no jail time has ever given. In these cases. The first case he received a deferment and a second case he received that. I think it was two years probation. And he also mentioned two tenancy investigators that he also molested other children as well, but I never really pursued yet his words where he got away with it. Yet he got away with it. That's right, so and what s interesting about this? John Ramses access. Graphics was the subsidiary of Lockheed Martin, in the nineties lockheed Martin. Was the united states number one defence contractor going back nineteen. Eighty six, the number one defence contractor was Each hour be singer and the president of that company in eighteen. Eighty six was george downs, brow bruises father. You can see a pattern and the more we share stories of you know you

I see lawyers, city officials, people of prominence, police caught up in deviant activity. So that's it! That's the downs burrow in a nutshell and then of encryption, These cases are already very disturbing, but one that really takes the disturbing cake is the ballard gay the ballard case is known to be the most horrific sex abuse case in colorado history. You had MIKE ballard and Patricia ballard with their friends Dennis done him and his wife and they abusing the ballard kids and I believe there was five of them- seven, seven, seven, seven kids and they. They were. It was torture, sexual abuse, incest, you name it. These kids were going through it and they had.

they can't. I had a system going where they would who's in one town and when the age ass came then got wise. They would move to another town and continue the abuse they would get visited and the kids would have all types of in a damn to their bodies. Cigarette burns bite marks, but they were never take another home, they will never taken away from them they were even brought before a judge with a broken limbs and they were still sent back to the balance. So this went on from for a period of years, these, they were eventually rested in ninety three. When, finally, they took the the chill and out of the home and placed them in a forced to home and when they felt comfortable enough. They told the foster parents what was going on that's how the arrests were finally made after the kids disclose the hurry

the abuse that they were experiencing at the hands of the ballard and and the dungeons, but a kind of expands, though it's not just the balance and the dungeons because when we received the affidavits for this case, when you red on the police reports. It says that the children were being pimped out in the neighborhoods to other adults, neighbours jerry, one and what's interesting- is that There were no other arrests made. There was just de the dungeons and the ballads all these other people that these he had said that they were abused by neighbors. You think they be easily approached in question, but this never took place. And some of these other persons were named. It wasn't just a neighbour or somebody from bolder some of these persons, named in the affidavit there were, other people named in the after they are. They said that their

strangers. They said neighbours, other kids other children. The thing is that they just focused on the four, and that was it even though the the kids talked about being taken to other places made You know brutally waved in front of many adults, other children were there. They know. He looked into it. You know, This case had the largest task force at the time in colorado, history, you I'd multiple You are longmont lafayette, boulder, social services, mental. How it was this shit, The task force, but yet. they only focused on before and they wore these but will also picture takers, so they took pictures.

and possibly fell. So how they did not look for other people. We, We can't find it. We can't find any people work on the task force, even though it was the I just want in the states history we can't find anything it was. It was the jail sentence that was truly amazing. Just the incessant along. You could have lock these people up for life, but never mind. in the torture? You know the pimping out to you know the other. You know having a pimped out to other people. I think ballard, I think Michael ballot was given ten years. I think his wife I think she served five. What was Dennis Stalin's wife's name Jim. I forgot one that that name. It's me, but she got off not free, dashed into a day in jail and then is done in life.

yeah, and I think that I think ballard did eight nath he didn't have. Maybe so, but deniston got life because one again the boulder county district attorney's office when these people down. This was such a disgusting plea that were returnees, involved in this case that left this week, attorney's office, there didn't leave the district attorney's office. They stop being attorneys. because they were so disgusted and what happened Everybody complained about the police. The kids complained about it so Work is complained about it, but yet did. It anyway, I was able to reach out to somebody that was very close. That case that,

I knew what was going on the DA's office, time and also was closed, kids as well, and this purse relate to me that this case was a hot potato at the days off nobody wanted to handle it and cheese, and this person said that the the children were treated in a style manner by the DA's office, the kids were very uncomfortable and they were treated poorly and And in this person did not understand why why why why why they were handling on they were getting threats in a sense like some kids the hospital and they were threatening the kids by saying, if you don't come to the DA's office, we're not gonna press charges stuff like that. the very bizarre how they handled this case and

Eventually, my brother and I were able to track down one of the child victims in case lived out in the mid west out. I was able to talk with him on the phone, briefly, because he kind of was caught off guard but when I mentioned the case tune him, the shock of kind of being brought back up. We settled down and he said that he had a fear of police officers. In this case I, so why do you have a fear of police officers and he said this. He goes they were orchestrating the abuse. That's how he said to me, and I said where the you said older long months.

and I said ok, so at one point I was able I took a reporter mina reporter. I went out from from bottom line who told us to go out to the mid west to interview he did know who told us to do it. Yet. I remember I'll, be great, we told are the greatest information about what one of the bow, but what about ballad kid had said to my brother right, an alley it's like you need you know because of his health issues at the time he couldn't travel. So he begged us to do it he's he found it to be that important, yes, a once. I got out there with a reporter add conversations with with the ballard kid at ease he was going to show, but eventually he he backed out. So it was kind of

failed trip on the sense tat he wouldn't show opted to speak further on when he mentioned the police. Constraining the abuse. That's why I really want to dig deep into when you look at the after David. And you start reading through all the police narrative, one of the girls mentions at one of these get togethers where there being abused and there being in and there being sexually you she said, oh well, I thought we were gonna get money for it, but why, I never received any and then she's? there was a policeman there and I ripped all that are being abused year and it says in the affidavit when she told this quorum call policemen that the police an and MIKE ballard laughed together. It says that right in the affidavit I was just reading it today, in a matter of fact, multilingual accounting that, though

The girl said that you were poorly to a policeman who was there and the policeman and might ballard laughed there is also in the affidavit, police. officers go into the the home at different times during the day in know, show up in uniform now Women were not saying that the entire border police department was involved. All blood, But all it takes is one or two added to this. These are disturbing allegations that were made It's no wonder. Ali gray wanted us to go out there and try to get more information and, unfortunately, the kitten and how he got nervous and didn't show. He had certain after my brother on the phone. The

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they are looking for information in all the cases that we ve just discussed well as anything that was going on. That was not on the up and up in boulder in the nineties. Nineties and after and if anybody information or would like to speak with one of the cell brothers, are both please use Email address J b are tips at gmail dot com. Once again, that's J b are tips at gmail, dot, com, what we are seeing here, time and time again, and what these cases point out is a flaw history of the town of bolder and the poor since that are supposed to be responsible for it as to gaining horrific crimes and allow the crimes we just talked about crimes against children and you're, seeing repeatedly failed investigations failed. Follow ups of failure to convict these individuals to the fullest extent of the law they are. Oft on crime and bolder

and they are solved on crimes against children in boulder at this time here and that's that's what we call That's the boulder syndrome! This is what we're talking about. This repeats learn over four decades throughout the you know, Alex hunters tenure, weave spoken, people we have spoken to forward attack those who work at the border police department, Everybody says the same thing: the plea bargains we're out of control, body says, and what we didn't mention with the ballad case. My brother talked about the judge that were brought before it and that the judge refute to take them out of the home judges, name was judged down the path Bad name may not sound familiar to people who follow the ramsay case, but he. The judge was put in charge of the grand jury in the ramsay cakes

and during the grand jury process he refused himself and left the country one to Egypt. He did this out of nowhere. He just came out, you know he. I think he sat the grandeurs and then all of a sudden said I quit I'm going to each of the teaching war so there the connection between them our case in the case with that one well to kind of the in the listeners here a little bit if the, if anybody's out their shaking their heads, go, I don't know this seems like a lots to believe it. Anybody that's. John bernay, inside the Ramsay murder investigation by steve thomas who, who was the detect. and one time lead on the case that the view Beginning of his book. He's a police officer he's a detective working for bolder the city of older in he spends the beginning of his book. Talking about how

outrageous in how please deal deals where a common theme in the county courts out there in boulder leading up to this it is up to the murder of germany and I think stephen, singular the author who wrote presumed guilty actually does a partner book. Where he's in a viewing detective whitman an whitman hence the something and says no I had. I was looking to arrest the city councilman, but I'll have the book and fry me boy, the paraphrasing I was told to back now. That's what dealing with in boulder. So when you start bill in these cases up. Is it really any wonder why Cases in south Africa worse, I mean the ballot cases is really a, but these cases keep ongoing one for

ample, as the jerry bury case right. That's a child pornography case asked it jerry bury this is this is one of my favorite and heat. He lived relatively close to the rams these correct rolling. She did. She didn't live really close He he worked as the treasure for first baptist church, which was pretty much down the block across the street from Saint John episcopal, ramsay church, which is you know, which is minutes away from the Ramsay home butter yeah jerry bury so easy. the treasurer for first baptist church he's arrested and this is, I want to say, eighteen. Ninety, nine, so first bad this used to have a programme, where they helped families that were down on their luck

and a woman shows up, would you know with three kids? Three three girls in of course, gonna help out jerry berries, gonna, take a personal interests. so he starts Why take the kids to his house with the mothers permission Eventually? What happens is that he starts taking pictures of him in this states of undress. Now these these girls were, I think, four five and seven Strangely enough, they had a brother and the brother from a town they came from, which escapes me at the moment the brother was in jail for lasting his sisters. That's right, these girls already went through the ringer with their brother. Now the mother takes in the first battle

Church they're gonna get help enable we is the one. That's gonna happen again: He said he was taking pictures of him in different state. Your palace, he showed the pictures to the mother she's fine with it. So what does that tell you. the mothers ok with what he's doing and then you know. Molestation starts in the bathtub, but I'm not going though, in the kids were sorry, I'm not really gonna go into it, so then they make an arrest, they arrest them. They too go film, making equipment from his house cameras, that's how we that's, how we even got arrested. Was he brought film to be developed and the person developing the foam back in ninety nine saw what was the camera and call the cops So that's how they are resident, so they

I'm dead to rights. then were totally. He actually has a prior in another state for the same thing, They surmise that he is also a child for pornographer in that coming, because I wonder getting in touch with one of the officers directly involved in the case itself and that question I pose directly The officer was he involved and child pornography, and they said yes, we believe he was a child. Pornography are an area, that's what he was doing. his own use. For two tubes to sell sailor trade for a apparently both personal and end the cell, because they brought in the past. we'll service to track where this, where the he was gone, and to hope and that's it, the investigation, got shut down, plea bargain, currently the office I was talking with one eye when I met

and you know what what the thoughts were when the plea organ came down. This officer said I literally fell off my chair, the globe I mean how could you not be shocking and that person that works? a case wound believing I would I would so you I am. I think she went to the west coast, butter another key bargain when you have the in as the the district attorney, you have the photographs and you traced, interact, photographs and in child, in our that was sent through the? U S, mail and yet you're still. There's is at that point. There is no reason for a plea, barton, you have the the you have the evidence to show the jury. Look, how the disgusting this person is the laws that he's

making he's not fit to live in our society. He belongs behind bars, you're, not you. You wouldn't find a jury that wouldn't convict that guy and yet your europe, letting him get a plea, bark. It gets more interesting ones too. Bargainers handed down jerry, bury breaks parole what women? if you're, a small business before you get to the parole yeah to to get to next point that he just made what I think happened. Is that they didn't want to know where Who else had the pornography? That's why they wanted pled the case out, but here's the now remember. This is ninety. Ninety nine, this isn't nineteen. Seventy seven this isn't slasher times? This is ninety. Ninety nine This is nearly three years after the murder of jonbenet ramsey. You figure! You want to make an example out of these people right

in the town has learnt its lesson. That they're going to be there going to be to be hard on, I'm pedophiles. They play them out too house arrest nodes real time lifetime probation. So we're going to your sentence is to be sent and confined The place that you were committed committing a lot of these crimes yet Obviously, no can't eat no contact with children. A lifetime probation. You know you. Can you know that you're you're on the hook. Now you know you gotta watch your step, so we breaks peril. It's he b- he breaks the the probation so it for free nor they send him to jail. Now he doesn't go to jail. Then he breaks the provision. Second time now, that's

it's the one for sure, they're gonna, send him to the slammer know doesn't happen. A third time no doesn't happen four times It took now it starts to get to the point where- and this is what ali greying always told me about the ramsay case that you want to get to the bottom of what happened figure out, who knew who that's case is gonna get south and, and you get people to talk and that's out that You do it, he would tell me that every almost every time we talk, why did we I was jerry, berry the ninety nine given especially. in a short span after the murder of germany, ramsay given that kind of treatment who is he giving

Or to who is selling to was that what they were afraid of that he knew names the sky was wealthy. He only fourteen cars. no license, though, and He owned a company called bury enterprises, which was leslie affront company, nobody could figure out even now loose met. Couldn't figure out what that company was doing tat, We have an idea about. Nobody could penetrate. and have actual proof of what that company really did said so at the barricades to expand on your guises, knowledge, and you did a little look into the background of Alex hunter. Who, as we just discussed, was the part and in charge and in could have put a lot of these terrible people away from very very long time, and maybe you know,

was a little relaxed in that effort, but tell us a little bit more about the background of Alex hunter, the dishes, to turn our. I think I said earlier. He came in the office in nineteen, seventy two, he I guess he thought he was a real estate mobile back them, because he me here into real estate. Making a bunch of deals with this war partner at the time was also involved in those land. Deals are built wise, the deal's went south and he was pretty much bankrupted. He owed creditors, I think, would see files. bankruptcy in seventy four. Twenty eight you're creditors another day in unsecured creditors I think he owed him six million bows this is the district attorney, and this is when he first starts. That's that's the beginning. Of alexander and

he initially ran. On a day. hard line against crime when he first started, and the whence attorneys in the area complain that their workload was too much, so they ended it and that's when the plea bargain Train got rolling and never stopped. You know he's been he's been married for times I that's pretty much. Alex Alexander four is basic background a person to be in that position and to be that much in debt is an obvious It's very easy to go from that to being compromised number one and then number two here with with Alex hunter its he keys in office still what roughly two thousand to them.

one a he gave here? He retired yeah the key step down in two thousand? that's a long time to be in office. It's like you, all middle kingdom, you know. Is he spent twenty eight years in office he was. He always ran unopposed but what brought him down was the Ramsay case well in europe, have somebody out there that's gonna, say but neck. He, you know you're saying he's litanies these. These sick owes plea out to shorter sent. There may be no jail time, but but he ran on a platform. On being tough on I'm well my response to that would be. If you, if that's your argument, look nobody ever won an election by announcing that there

to be soft on crime. So it just is just part of the packaging for getting that job. As far as I'm concerned, Part of the political world, that's right now what what I thought was so much fun. I had talked to you guys a handful of times and very much enjoyed our conversations and then I sat down- and I read Stephen singularis, very good book presumed guilty, and I had no clue that this was going to happen at some point. He starts talking about you guys and he, and he he referred to. it is the XL brothers probe, the zella there's investigation into the job in a ramsay case, as so talk about what it is. that you guys set out to do a ninety, ninety seven and maybe some of the more famous individuals or people that work or very close this case it you ve, met in interacted with the law. Well, as I mentioned earlier in nineteen sub in ninety ninety seven, so we

I mean we literally got involved in this case. Almost from the beginning, I think we started looking into it. Jim. What about three days after all, was right away to bring any night of ninety six and. I don't know if you wanted to mention how we got. going on, or I guess we can mention it. We can do a quick, so ninety? Ninety six? We start looking into it and it was in it just now. it's the whole thing walked off and that's why I called my brother. I said Jim, you know. Maybe we shouldn't take a look around the town, you know see others. there's an ira, we'll house and It didn't take long just a couple of days and my brother will tell you the the falcon

that said the suave on a twenty seven year journey. Well before me, in the twenty seven years. Originally you thought you would solve this and how long I originally told my brother said jones. This won't take long. Probably a year off the market should not be missed it by that much beauty but it wasn't for a lack of trying right. Yes, yes to tell us about the phone calls You are you talking about the early days of the internet right. So where do you really go to get your information about a town. You know ye always go to the library. You know that That was your resource, that's where it history of a town is towns memory. It is the library People are work at the library, know the people of the towns Why called I called the? bolder library- and I asked speak to someone on they put up. Put me on out of it was the head library and it was just a librarian, and I asked her a very simple question. I said

I'm calling in regards to this case of this little girl. I said Is this? The first time? That's ever happened, or I mean as usual. Oh, what what happens here and you can you give me what do you cabin, and she said well this What you said things happened. Were kids here, bolder that we don't like to talk about. and then she said to be with you: I'm a little uncomfortable talking with you on the phone about it, so I'm gonna go and then I said he. I so gay things happen like things happen to our kids. Here that we don't like to talk about an almost sounds like the firm right out of the the novels And kings, it right here something going on here with the kids in their there? they're getting pulled and vanishing off the streets and bob, but we're so unsettled with everything that we're not. We don't even discuss it, yeah, sorry

I call my brother is a frank. You know. I think we need to look at this a little further and then I found a mechanic who didn't go that far but talked about rumours of things happening. The kids and We were kind of often running and we form our theory of the case, probably midway through job We worry ninety ninety seven and we called it the sacrosanct. And, as I said earlier, we do now I believe that John and patchy ramsay killed their door, not at all. We believe that they may be. They may have been involved in something that lead to daughter being killed and then, for whatever reason, help cover it up. That was our theory and We had certain goals that we wanted to. I shouldn't common goals.

We thought if our theory was going to be correct, that certain things were going to happen, and we ve got me. My brother worked other cases over the years and when you start to predict, future of the case or things happened in the case in your predicting it ahead of time, usually on the right track, so We said: ok secondary, where their sex rings in the town. We found that out relatively quickly at their worst sex rings, operating and bowler. In the ramsey case, we would have to find someone who would come forward. Cues either John path, It was someone close to them of child sexual abuse. So we started digging and bolder Now, meanwhile,.

While we're looking for that witness and we have- and we had a plan. Why out a plan for sure that, if found, the witness that would make that claim. At the time I had a place that they could stay. We ve got him out a bolder. I get The east coast put him up you have no worries private investigators to investigate their claims and and get a reporter to write an article on what the private investigators could prove enhanced. Put pressure on the boat police department. That was the goal to find the witness and then lo and behold, a witness comes forward. but just not, as we thought it would be, which would locally in boulder. This witness came, from California She came forward. She was under. There appeared a care she was

and the therapies she was seeing said yes,. What's he saying it is is valid because her claim that she was abused in california what reminded her sheep when, when she heard of job. In a case, she was ok model was she abuse the way I was abused but there, players that are involved with her that were involved in my abuse, thanks were listening. Things were telling a friend make sure you join me back here in the garage for part too, with the XL brothers until then, good behind

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