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JonBenet Ramsey ////// The Autopsy

2019-12-11 | 🔗

JonBenet Ramsey ////// The Autopsy

Episode 4 of 6


On December 26th 1996, 6-year old JonBenet Ramsey was found murdered in the basement of her home in Boulder, Colorado. Her case remains unsolved. Beer of the Week - Christmas Bomb 2019 by Prairie Artisan Ales Garage Grade - 4 out of 5 bottle caps

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
but I really don t they ran the intruder. Rambling view the parents from that dream
after John Ramsey and Fleet White found John Bananas body in the wine cellar located in the basement. In a hurry ran up the stairs taking the body with him placing, body on the floor of the kitchen, detective Linda ART, then moves. body to the living room. Then art orders, fleet white to stand by the door to the basement and guard the door fleet goes to the door but for some reason, runs downstairs to retrieve the duct tape from the basement floor. This is all taking place between one o four p m in one twenty three p M proximately. One thirty p m Priscilla White calls her home. I'm guessing here captain, but this is very likely to halt Burke, leaving the White House and returning to the Ramses around the same time,
officers, Braun Walker and Larry Mason returned to the scene, Saul John beneath body and then search the home afterward securing the house shortly after body was found. John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsay and Stuart long arrive at the Ramsey House in Bali Colorado between one third two pm a detective overhears John on the phone John called a pilot. His pilot telling him to ready the plane. This to me is very strange behaviour from somebody who is just recovered. The body of their six year old daughter, right around two p M John Ramsay signs consent form to search the Ramsay home. Just touching on that that plane call to the pilot for a little bit here that the detective
had to stop John Ramsey from leaving the the Ramsey family from leaving telling the Ramseys hey you shouldn't go anywhere We have a murder investigation, the crime scenes your home and you know they're not going to tell them this up front and center here, but obviously their suspect, right now. I think the way that Ramseys were actually thinking was Alana. Georgia was what they considered her home. So we have this bad thing that happened. We want to get back home. We don't want to be here. We don't want to be in this house, but that does like you said, hinder the investigation. I don't think that hinders the investigation of the house or the crime scene, but a Henderson season and being able to talk with them adequately yeah and then, regarding this consent to search form for the search warrant. If you will,
or because it makes it seem like Johns, been very cooperative. Yet I and I take Nikolay, don't believe this to be an actual search warrant. You know one that you bring before judge, judge signs off on it. I believe this is just a consent to search form signed by John Ramsay Thee, where the owner of the home. This is just one of those other little details within this case that I absolutely cannot stand. Is it regardless? You know, depending on whose magnifying glass. You look at these details from you get a different story on what's going on here, where the Ramsay defenders would tell you look this proof positive that they were extremely cooperative. Don't bother Nick with work, bring about that. They wanted to hop on a plane and fly far away, because this shows cooperative. They are, they were signing a consent to search their home form. They have not
to hide there an open book, but then the ones that want to after the Ramses point out you're, not really an open book because John later says that he thought he was signing off on on on saying that, yes, you can perform an autopsy on the body right, so it's it's just frustrating, that's one of the most frustrating pieces of this case. While I think the one of the frustrates even says when people say only one things, the truth right can we agree on that. It can't be both yeah. Why why, in an alley where they say, there's three sides to the truth: there's yours, mine and the actual truth, not always, but I think, there's the truth, but I think with the whole wanting to go back home, he didn't go back home like they wanted to the cops.
Yeah don't do that! That's a bad idea, but it's so stupid. With this case. It's like a non point like yeah. He like, let's go back home hey. Don't do that? Okay, we're not going back home, but they don't and stay in the house that nobody wanted to be in that house. Oh and I can not blame them. I even of John ever went back in that house. After that day, they end up staying with their friends, but but let's also also clear that around this time they pull John to a room by himself and they talk to him for a while and at some point they talk to Burke by himself for a while. So they do talk to Burke. This would be at the he never comes back to the rams. house right. So they talked to Burke one on one might standing as it was straight up. One on one it was Burke, was still at the friend's house right,
and he's over there. You know playing with the other kids in there distracting him that I that's a troubling aspect to this case too, because you can look at just that whole situation in two different ways. One are you protecting your child Burke, by removing him from the situation that could scar him for life, something extremely traumatized or are you purpose? putting him away so that he doesn't disclose some information right by you. You eventually let him talk to the cops one on one jobs, even the room with him right you're so worried about what he's going to say or if, if you knew that he just smashed his six year old sister's head with a slight. Let him sit in a room with a detective by himself or with friends in others that share that information with Willie Daly
he's nine years old, right, you're, not there when, when they ship 'em off and also that's not just the Ramsey's thought process of all. Let's get Burke out of here. This was a this was the cops and the rams he's gone. He needs to be removed from this. sight? The cops suggested that he should be removed from the the Ramsey Home, though I think it was. It was like a a collective effort of the collective idea. I don't think it was just, as simple as the Ramsey Saying, hey. He needs to get out of here. The thing I will point out here that I think is very troubling on behalf of the boulder police and on the Ramses is if you're working under the scenario that a child has been kidnapped from home in a ransom, has been called for in a letter when she want to ACT, your your remaining child, one, who feel that the day
should be some kind of security for this other child rather sending him off to some friends house rise. It seems it It's another situation where we can point out that the boulder police clearly did not know how to respond to a kidnapping situation where a ransom is being called for. But then the day I think people are pointing at Ramses constantly you don't know what it would be like to lose a six year old daughter or how you'd react or what you'd be thinking about. Be hard to think about anything yo all well, they shipped them away. So they're not protecting their son might not even be beheld to think properly, so I think some of their action. right, that's not what I mean that's when the border police should have stepped in and said now. This is this
this home right now secured because we have law enforcement presence here he safe here right, I agree and they should have done a better job of trying to when they got to the scene. Initially they should. Cleared the whole house and the end, and they would have found her and then the crime scene been contaminated and they're. Also what had enough officers we're not having her father, pick her up and contaminate evidence and and then have the mother cry over her and contaminate evidence. Have the detective pick up. The victim Ratan contaminate Hence I mean it's that's pretty well, not only did Linda aren't move the body after John Move, the body- and this is Orton to the autopsy, but She allowed someone to take a blanket as you no sign of
to protect their child, or I don't know where more sir, whatever, whatever Howard many different ways, you want to look at it she'll I want someone to take a blanket and place it over the body once it was removed to the move to the living room and then to further that job and his feet were still sticking out from the blanket from the bottom of the blanket and lit, I believe, Linda, aren't, told someone to cover up the feet is so they took a colorado avalanche. You know the hockey team they either took hockey, sweater, aura or sweatshirt and placed it over the feet of the body. So what that means to the lay person based any hairs fibers anything like that could have been on that blanket could have been on that sweatshirt or sweater, now is on could be on her
he and or clothing. So it's just it's just truly. A mess, now short after John consent to search form the rams ease leave their home. They go to stay with the furnace. Remember we discuss foreigners. They showed up early that morning to the Ramsay Hope this, the Ramses going to the furnace, includes John's older children John Andrew Ramsey and Melinda Ramsey and her boyfriend as well some time that afternoon John Ramsay calls and request a visit from Michael Vinyl, who is report to be John Ramses, close friend and a corporate attorney. It is during this visit, so Michael bind him. He agrees to this visit. during this visit that same afternoon, the John hires Michael Bynum, to represent him and
The Bynum advises the Ramseys at that time that they need to get additional attorneys river you're. I think you're missing one step. They actually got a call. Their lawyer got a call. He wasn't hired at the time, but but that's why he suggested that John Keates lawyer, because he got a call from a contact that he had inside the police department. That said they're just trying to make this about you guys and that's it and that's when he suggested you need to get a lawyer, December. Twenty six, ninety ninety six at the home of John and Patsy Ramsay. This is from the report. These are the words of pathologist John G Meyer M D. He says the body of the six year old feed I was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified, a seven fifty five fifteenth street and bolder Colorado. I arrived at the scene approximately p m and entered the house where the decisions by
he was located at approximately eight twenty p m. I initially dude the body in living room of the house. The decedent was, mine on her back on the floor covered by a blanket. Colorado, avalanche, sweatshirt, on removing these two items from the top of the body. The decision was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head, the head was turned to the right, a brief exam asian of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck ligature around the right. Wrist also noted was small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear. On the lateral aspect of the right cheek, A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck after exam, the body. I left the residence at approximately eight thirty p m at ten forty five p m on December, twenty sixth, the boy a six year old job in Ramsey is removed from the family's home before
we move onto December 27th captain. I want to make sure that I point out here in regards to contamination of the body that it has been noted by several people. This is one of these items. It's in dispute or up for debate. This is, across the board, John Ramsey Patricia Ramsey, Linda, Arndt and Fleet White, all touched the body before it was and re and John Ramsey and Patricia Ramsey touch the body several times I'm not pointing that out to indicate guilt or to indicate that the Ramseys were trying to cover something up. I think it would be a one hundred and four natural reaction to want to go. to your child, to touch your child, I'm just hanging out for the purpose of evidence,
revalue. Yeah I mean that compromises the scene, we're not saying that it's to cover up being that it compromises the scene and and then we also know where we're starting from so the following is from Steve Thomas's book. This is in I'd. The Ramsay murder investigation, Steve Thomas, was well of the leading detectives on the case, this is from page forty one and it says it was the morning of December. Twenty seventh, the little body was first remove from a locked, yellow outer covering then from an inner black bag. The paper sacks were removed from the hands and feet admire. Remember he is the pathologist describing his findings. The victim weighed forty five pounds was three feet: eleven interest tall and had green eyes, and some green garland was caught in her blind
hair a single loop of white cord was around her right, wrist tied on top of the sleeve, but so loosely the doktor easily slit free. There were fifteen half inches between that loop and a loop on the other and which once apparently had bound the left wrist. A white cord of the same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep horizontal furrow had been dug into the skin. A gold chain and cross were tangled in that ledger, which was tied behind the neck to a can stick blonde hair was snared in the not and the coroner had to cut the hare in order to remove the cord which,
tied more like a noose than a twisting garage, the broken paintbrush used as the garage handle had Korea printed on it. When Meyer clipped the nails of each finger, no blood or tissue was found. That would indicate a struggle. He used the same clippers for all the fingers, although doing so created an issue of cross contamination for optimal dna purposes, separate and sterile clippers should have been used for each finger. Furthermore, Are we later learned that the coroner's office sometimes used the same clippers on different, odd topsy subjects? That's that's amazing, great job, their captain. We could go through the entire autopsy. I want kind of go through and cherry pick some items, but two do. The entire autopsy would be an exhausting process. It's over Three thousand words long. So
point that out one to not be late. the about it, but to point out that it was in appears to be a thorough document constructed by pathologist Meyer. Cherry picking some items here at the top of the report. Captain we have Name Ramsey Albany as this one's a real quickly, if, if you're not willing to take the time to have different clippers on each finger, I would assume there's some kind of protocol that less is more. If we're going to start with that conversation then- and yes, it's three thousand words that I don't know if that means it's thorough, I just meant. The document I said was a thorough document, not a thorough examination. The thing here with these autopsies that gets difficult is you're solely relying usually on one individual to him, this process properly. As your point
Ah, here follow protocol and protocol varies depending on what county you're in what city you're in what state you're in it's, I hate to say it it's, but it truly is a a willy nilly process. It's one of those situate shoes where you question the science of it, because it's human error and it's and it can be laziness. It can be a number of different things and they can- opinion based correct and the other thing too, is you know I had a discussion once with with some people and they said, while there were Multiple hairs found on the body from different sources, and that means that there were multiple killers and he said well not necessarily. We've done enough of these cases to realize that the random, and fibres can end up on people for a number of different reasons that are innocent nature right, but
to further that, along in the way that the way that I connect this to this conversation is I've reviewed at least two cases where later we learned that one of the hairs found on the body came from the body bag that the body was placed into it wasn't cleaned properly. The county that was quite poor in there, just reusing body bags all the time. The report states at the top, the name of the decision, is Ramsay job in a date of birth August Sixth, one thousand nine hundred and ninety h66 female autopsy number, ninety six a155 date and time December 26th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety six one thousand three hundred and twenty three. So one hundred and twenty three pm. This is interesting they have to well. I guess they don't have to, but per protocol are supposed to put a time
death on this form, whether they come up with an actual time of death or not, and situation, one twenty Three p m is put on this document because that's considered to be, agreed upon time that the body was, in the living room. We know we didn't die at one twenty, three p m and in fact there no real time of death, it was truly established. In this case, Steve Thomas says that the detectives were told to work with. Window of one, a dot m to seven, a dot m. and then he kind of backs into that a little bit and shrinks that window based off of some. information. We know to be true the nine one one call comes in before six a m, so you can go ahead and take away six to seven now, left with one a m to six a m right? I lied. that, and I do like you
hear me question Steve Thomas's actions and theories and in how he came up with some stuff as we move forward. But I want to point out that Personally, I find his investigation to be interesting and in a sense that there are pieces of it that seem incredibly thorough where even on the timeline of the day when the bodies found he has multiple times for when people arrived at the house inside his room, or an inside his notes. Some people point out. Why a terrible job. This detective has more couple times for the same people arriving to the house. This can't be an accurate document, Ray Steve, Thomas for claims for that to be an accurate document. What he saying is I've talked to everybody, somebody tell person a arrives at this time, and then somebody else tells me personally arrived at that time until I can prove what time
That person arrived, I'm leaving both in my report and in my notes, both are correct. So I find that portion to be well done on on Mr Thomas's behalf yeah, because, like you said, and he's not just gone. Okay, why? I talked to this person? I talked to this person that I believe this person more right he's the same. He even had on there until he can prove other otherwise, and why I find it a little tricky, though, is when we have the time of death when he's discussing what he believes or what he claims, the detectives believe to be the time of death. I find that I his theory in the detectives theory kind, a wig oil that theory gets, gold into their time of death in the window that they create, you know that, making assumptions that I think are very dangerous to make in this investigation one being that they said
okay, well, we're told to work with this window of one. A dot m to seven a dot m. We know that it was or six a m because of the nine. When one call we from the window a little bit date, they want to shrink this window, and I we need window to be much smaller than that. We need that window to be shrunken. Yes, so we can really get an idea of what happened and who needs to be accounted for during that time. The thing I believe that they do that's dangerous to the investigation as they make the assumption that the the ransom letter was penned after the death. and that the letter writing process would take a certain amount of time, and thus can shrink the window even more. You wrote the letter out yourself, I have not, but if I sit down and try to ride it. With my left hand, instead of my right is going to take me even longer, right by me. Do you have like just a guess of how long do you think it would take you to copy
well, you say copy, but there's a chance that the author was was writing it from you know right right, yeah that they're coming up with it and here's the other thing. How many times did they? How many practice letters could there be? You know there are multiple pages ripped out from that pad of paper. I believe it's three that they were able to determine that there were three pieces of paper missing between where they believed the the page one of the letter came from and the rough draft, let's caught with the MRS and MRS or MR or MRS I at the top of the page right bow. Why? I think people should do is pull out a couple of sheets Bert the it start by copying it that gives you some kind of timeframe, its that's under five minutes. So yes, it's it's a lot different to create one from scratch, but if the perpetrator brought that note with them under five minutes to copy
yeah over eight hours. If you have to sit down and watch ransom, dirty harry and speed find those tapes at the scene of the crime. portable remember those the t v, VCR, combos, yeah, black and white yeah that the the perp brought it with him. Alright, so we're we're getting getting off track here. A final diagnosis talk studies, blood, ethanol, none detected blood, drug screen, no drugs detected final diagnosis, cause of death of this six year. Old female is x fixya by strangulation associated pray NEO, so river of
cheers captain I am raising a big big glass of Christmas bomb. Twenty nineteen by the awesome folks at prairie, artisan, ales garage, great four out of five bottle caps thanks to everyone who is donated to the beer fun and I dont mean just this week- I mean all year long for the last how many years we keep the lights on and you keep beer in the fridge our in our mouths as well, picking up where we left off here captain. To put it quite frankly, just a muddy the waters even more? In this case we have Sickly two causes of death declared by Mr Myers M D, a that we will probably be discussing quite a bit. I want to describe this to everyone just so sober
all on the same page as we move forward, the term will be garage. The general concern this being here that a garage can be made out of many different materials, including ropes, cable tie. fishing lines, nylon, guitar strings telephone call or piano wire anything of that type of nature. A stick may be used to tighten the This is a spanish word which actually refers to the stick itself: Spanish. The term may also refer to a rope and stick used to construct a limb. This basically is a popular murder weapon and for sadist it's a torture device. It's on four, Lee a term that we ve used many times on the show continue with our exam here, captain the deceit and is- Both in a long sleeved White knit sure the chest area contains,
embroidered silver star with silver sequence, tied loosely around the right wrist overlying. The sleeve of the shirt is a white cord at the knot. There is one tail and which measures five point: five inches in length with a frayed end, the other tale of the not measures. Fifteen point five inches in length and ends in a double loop, Not this end of the court is also frayed. There are no defects noted in the shirt, but the upper Right sleeve contains a dried brown stain two point: five by one point: five- and is believed to be from the nose or mouth. There are long white underwear with an elastic waist and containing a red and blue stripe, though long underwear are urine stained over the crotch area and legs beneath the
Long underwear are white panties with printed rosebuds and the word Wednesday on the elastic span the underwear is urine stained and the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up two point: five inches maximum dimension to touch on this. What we've just reviewed here, captain the in regards to the yarn. This is a big big thing in this case. Because what we would learn very early in the investigation from the Ramses housekeeper. Is the Jonbenet was known to wet the bed quite frequently as well her statement to detectives? was that often when she would come in in the morning, the Patsy Have already stripped the bed seeing the sheets in the wash her and then, when the housekeeper
yet there you know, should transfer them to the drier sheets or dried and then apply them back the bed, and this was at times a daily routine. I believe her statement was that was a daily routine, leading up to about thirty or forty days before the murder, and this kind of gone away. It was all like Jonbenet, had grown, from that that she was no longer wedding. The bed, I might be mistaken, but I think at one point she was not went in the bed and then she started wedding. The bed again, that's exam copyright. That's the same thing that I heard, and I believe that was the statement from the housekeeper. The detectives also found pull ups. You know like the they're they're, not quite diapers, therefore older children yeah. I wear them I wear them to concert, so I don't have to take a break to go to the bathroom. I don't want to miss anything. Now. I wear them when I'm in the garage there were pull ups found in the hall
and there was some question if Jonbenet was known to wear these, I'm guessing that she would don't see why pull ups would remain in the house you have children that are nine and six years old. Just look at the pictures of their house, man, it's a mass, that's true! There's the hot mess. One of the. The reason why we point this out here is that one of the big theories that his life- said. All these years is that Germany, what wet the bed that night and n you know anger anger in an impulsive reaction, Patsy freaks out and throws the kid across the room or hits or over the head with something and it's this all came about because she went to bed once again right. An path it just been through it all, and this was the final straw she lost it
didn't mean to hurt or kill her child, but that's what she did and then, as I potty training abuse, its is actually pretty common like that. Even people that want it you wanna thank, would hit our kids or be violent towards her kids. They can be if the kid is not being potty, train correctly or not, able to do such so, we have to address this because we do have in the autopsy report from the external examination that there was urine on the clothing. I do want to point this out, though. We should be clear here that this could have come about at any time. It doesn't necessarily mean that she one hundred percent with the bed that night now this could have two she could have. She could have wet herself during an attack. That's extremely common. She could have wet herself after you know, in death,
the soda point to that and say hey, she had two of wet the bed, and this is the only this explanation, we've come up with due to that fact again That's a dangerous assumption to make in this investigation to further is out a little more and I hate it I hate to throw the warning out there that it's going to get a little gross because it seems only hence a cold because we are discussing it in our topsy, but where the fact that our shows country crime garage, in in the when cussing her wedding. The bed there's also reports that she has devastated in the bed before multiple types. There's also statements that Burke would deficit in Germany is bad.
I don't know either one of those to be true is seems to me like the one that we can really hang our hat on here. That seems to be the most true is the bedwetting situation. This is brought up by multiple people and the the other bit. I can't say for certain that that I believe either those now what would be pointed out during this investigation and the my words but bed wedding death, skating in the bed. Things of that nature. It was pointed out that sometimes that is what you would see when somebody is being maligned. it not only molested, but usually when they're being molested by somebody within the home or within the family.
The reason for that is that in those situations, sometimes the victim will do that consciously or unconsciously subconsciously whatever it is, because they want to appear desirable or gross to the perpetrator. Some was a way of protecting themselves, correct that I point that out, because That is one of the theories as well. In this case, I also want to stay one hundred percent that there's never in any evidence before or after the murder, if Jon Benet Ramsey, that John or Patsy had that they were ever involved in any paraphernalia at all. Yeah possess be clear on something they search their house. I think they actually should it. It was one magazine that
murder kitty porn murder, they search as for poor now, and they did not find any pressure in the. There's also a rumor that they had all these books or one of the books on in their study was open up to incest I like- that I believe it was the a dictionary down that the word incest was marked in a dictionary. I quit in that one to captain, because that's one of those ones that you here in more salacious reports on this case, I really question I feel like that would be up a more well known fact. If it was a fact, but we will, we do now is a factor find any pornography in the house right. top that off these both parents have other children theirs. you know, there's never been any any- can
by any of the other children that that Patsy or John was ever involved in anything like that and to further that out even more. We have Melinda on record multiple time, seeing her father just wouldn't be capable of such an act and that he be it murder or molestation. While we're on the subject, though, of the bedwetting situation, one thing that I did find particularly strange in this case, and this is why, reported to that job in a Ramsay had twenty seven doktor visits in the course of the three years leading up to her death on an average That puts her at like nine a year It's crazy amount. The doctor When asked about this states that that was for the the pediatrician,
it's that these were for all normal reasons. She did have some sinus issues. I guess that would be cause for reoccurring visits I also wonder too, we know situation of the accidental time when bark hit her in the face with the then that ongoing in the face and the face there. In itself, though, I want to point out just just something like that requires multiple doctor visits. I was looking for like a have a straight up list or yeah you'd have. If there were stitches, you have stitches, then, to remove the stitches. While we know that even we, She went to a plastic surgeon, so just like you pointed out there that that with the initial doctor visit referral somebody com taken the the surgery a follow up right there. You have. more out of the twenty seven one you have a stay at home, mom saw, I think you may
for people that are everybody's working and there's not a lot of money. Little things you're just going to let go, but when you the time to take your daughter and for every little thing, and you have the money to cover it. I don't think that's unreasonable external evidence of injury located just below the right ear at the angle of the mandible one point: five inches. Below the right external auditory canal is a small, rust, colored in the lateral aspect of the left. Lower eyelid is petechial hemorrhaging. I'm going to skip some portions of this autopsy report captain because there are multiple pages that go through all of these particular. hemorrhaging and all the hemorrhaging that takes place. We know that we've already discussed it strangulation was involved in anybody. That's
The show or other true crime shows knows that hemorrhaging occurs during those types of situations, but to specifically describe some of the report here. This part, I believe, to be important wrapped around the neck. They double not in the mid line of the past year. Your neck is a length of white cord similar to that ride as being tied around the right grist. This legates record is cut on the right side of the neck and removed a single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the car. Ok, so that portion of the last two sentences of his report- are describing the path ology s actions he sang, I removed it by cutting it, and then I placed markers indicating where, where the cuts took place, the not is left intact ix.
ding from the not on the neck, are two tales of the, not one measuring four inches in length and having a frayed end and the other measuring seventeen inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around eighteen. And brown wooden, stick, which measures four point: five inches in length. This wouldn't stick is irregular Lee broken at both ends, and there are several colors of paint and varnish on the surface printed in gold. Letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word Korea, the tail end of the other word extends from beneath the loops of the cord tighter. on the stick and is not able to be interpreted. Blonde hair is entwined in the not and in the cord wrapped around the one stick. It appears to be made of white synthetic me Israel also secured around the neck- is a gold chain with a single charm in the form of a cross
emanation of the right. Extremities is unremarkable. On the middle thing, of the right hand, is a yellow metal band around the right. Wrist is Yellow metal in identification bracelet with the name, Jon on one side and the date twelve, twenty five. Ninety six on the other side, this was a gift from her aunt, I believe from Patsy's sister and I mean just there's these a little sad heart breaking points in case all along the way, just remind you of the pure innocence of this little girl, and you know she cares is wearing a gift that she just very recently received. Him was probably very excited to wear this piece of jewelry. Does she received from her aunt? I mean it is a break your heart. I also thing it's not clear in this case on how brutal this attack was
this group. The way it was set up in almost looked like you'd put a human on a leaf and then you'd be pushing their head down. As you pulled the the crop back, it's truly horrifying. I don't think that there's any documentary out there that has, I don't know what the right word is here captain, but I want to say, bothered to describe how her there was a injuries. Are they all make it sound like it, sleeping beauty lying in a window, less room in the basement and debts out the situation at all. There there's an if anybody that seen the pictures read the descriptions and we're going through here you hear the the medical
beak jargon, and it just sounds like textbook shit, but really in later times it was it's a horrific attack on it on a tiny little person, yeah, there's our fleets marks on the neck one at the lower part of the neck and then at some point that became free and they go in deeper and there's actually a couple pictures that you can see how deep the the rope goes. or throw almost disappears yeah and the line that it left at the midline. The throat. After the fact, though, I mean it should it looks like but he took up maroon marker maroon sharpie and just drew a line across somebody's neck. That's how deep it looked like it was. The cord was going into the neck. There was a red ink line, drawing the form of a heart that was found
Hated on the palm of John Bananas left hand, the fingernails of both hands are of sufficient length for clipping, and we already discussed that they use the same clippers to click all of the fingernail. You said that there was no and found that we need the nails, but I thought there was some dna and possibly some blood that was found underneath the right hands, fingers fingernails. So in that showing that she struggled with somebody some point, you're correct. There are multiple reports on this detail of the investigation. The bit that I gave you was Steve Thomas's report, one of the leading tactics, so I dont know what is the real true answer. What I find it interesting is that he follows up his report by
saying we later learned that the all the fingernails were clipped with the using the same clippers again. I think that points to his thoroughness of saying, whether that is right or wrong. This is what happened, attic it's right or wrong. This is what happened and then to to add way of that question every because this also happened right. What's the best way to describe the DE cause, there was some. I dont want to use the word damage to the van general area. I don't think that damages the right word. Well did you say indication of. I have actually seen us disputed multiple ways One claims that there there is evidence that there was at least some kind of touching too
the vagina area, digital manipulation at the time of death, and then they also use the word chronic. Now, when you hear the word chronic, You think all this has been going on for a long time now. This was this term would have made sense to meaning that there was something that happened to her days in advance of one of the medical examiners, thought that this would happen. Basically most likely a individual, putting their finger inside of her vagina on the twenty second or the twenty third now other medical examiners have stated that some of this bruising could be due to Jeanne. The bed wedding, the irritation of the irritation of having urine stained clothing on the skin right up against the skin one
sometimes they guarantee time you get rashes, and so then a mother would use they would get some kind of occasion to put on the rash and you could then you know that's where you could get some digital world caught well, I think, to put it pretty as clean as we can would be to say that the reports out there state everything from cry molestation to something as little as irritated skin. That could come from urine stain clothes,
or by those be clear boundaries, wiping right, but let us be clear about this chronic molest station. This is not. There was no signs of their there's, no scar tissues to prove that she was molested for weeks and months and years, not true we're talking about the time of her death and probably once a couple days before. That's all they prove and also seems like there was. Would fragments found in her vagina as well. I didn't personally see that in Doktor Myers report. I think I saw that from loose man. He does reference fibres broken as well, so again, this with this area of the body. It's it's really. It's up for to debate
really depending on who you talk to this represents any number of things. What I feel that I've seen and heard the most. So I'm going to throw this in the batch of general consensus would be there just, as you pointed out that this is something that occurred. Either at the time of death or shortly before, and it could be the thing from as terrible as digital, manipulation if you listen or something a more vigorous, wiping or not heighten I I'm on all that out what most of the medical examiner state as that that the chosen in which people so half hazard leave want to say is covering up fur for something
right, but that the checking of Germany was is after the fact, and therefore its covering up an accident. Now the choking was not an accident, it was on purpose. It was not meant to kill her, it was meant for sexual gratification. So if you have a, they believe that there was the last station the time of her death, and I I think that that needs to be fact to me because it site you don't have one or the other and a lot of people think because there wasn't penetration with your penis, that the individual would be more likely to be young.
or a crazed or disorganized offender. You typically see that right in those types of of murder cases, so the report says a one centimeter red purple area of abrasion, is located on the right path. Sterile saw him in a struggle of some of these words here posterior, lateral area of the I one centimeter high mental orfis, the hymen itself is rep then by a rim of tissue extending clockwise between the two in ten o positions, the air, of abrasion is present at approximately the seven o position and here's to involve the highwomen and distal right, lateral. vaginal wall we all that to point out that that's basically saying there's a small amount of
or injury to that area at bruising. One thing that is completely shocking in this whole cased, shocking to me capped is that it appears that Linda Arndt The path all just who arrived on the twenty six to examine the body at the Ramses home, and then several other people as well, that nobody realise that this poor girl had been struck over the head. It's it's almost like it, took further detection that it wasn't. You know you have the shocking scene of the guarantee of the cord wrapped up and this little girl's throat? Maybe it's the shock factor and you you, you don't see what what might have been obvious, but for all the reports, I've read and stop me if you've read any that that are different, but it sounds as if this head wound, which
this was a massive injury and we'll get into the details of it. But it sounds like sight seen unnoticed Yeah, there's no blood, some massive pools of blood. I'd Anne. She had long blonde hair. I believe it was what she is too to pay sales are ponytails whatever they call that, while ya mean, if you've ever seen, one of your buddies like hit their head, especially when they have blonde hair, It turns bloody, real, real, quick right What I'm getting at is, I don't know how much blood there was. There wasn't right and I don't know I would like to have a pathologist or a doctor, sit down with me. and tell me the reason. Why there's, no blood so one she's, already dead or near death at the time
yeah that's what most medical examiners when they look at their say, look there's a lack of blood, so we they believe in while all the credible ones, the most credible ones. I've seen with this case state she was choked, is sexually it's for sexual gratification. The perpetrator was choking her either trying to touch her now. That would be random, now be as much most likely. They were touching themselves by their strangling her ah sheet. There's defensive wounds around her neck, meaning she's trying to stop the choking. At some point, some people believe that would cut off the blood circulation to her brain.
I and there's some signs of that they they believed through the autopsy, and so I can't remember what they call it, but it's basically where he your dad, I'm in it's a key. It happens almost instantaneously yeah and so that they also believe that you know normally, if somebody's trying to strangle somebody in order to kill them. There's A lot of marks that are left like in the neck muscles strains, different bones and stuff, possibly can be broken with in the neck- and none of that is seen here- that's why they believe that these these bruises with inside the vagina are from MILAN
because the evidence of the choking doesn't like I said it doesn't seem like the purpose of the choking was to kill her. It was to control her. so, where it gets a little convoluted, is a lot of medical examiners think that during this sexual gratification, in that the perpetrator then either freaked out or or got into it too much and hit her over the head with now. Other people believe that the perpetrator knew that they that she was dead because they also It's also a temporal lobe bruising the brain and that's
When somebody is one somebody shakes somebody after death and so somebody chokes her doesn't mean to kill her shakes her she's dead, and then I think I believe, that's when the the blow to the head happen, because at that point The heart has stopped at one be pumping blood to the to the brain. Thou would be one of the reasons why we want to have poles of blood everywhere. that is one reason. The other reason could be too is do we how much broke. Skin. Do we actually have with this strike right and the interesting thing here too, is the the use of the garage and the.
After that, it was used. Very likely could suggest that it's, it's not only a torture device, but it's also a sexual assault device where you're using it. Because that's what this this Sicko was into, and sometimes we see this a lot in a lot of cases that we've covered, especially with cereals, that they will often choke someone almost to the point of death. And then allow them to receive air and then choke them again right, but they believe that was happening with her, because
there there are signs of that for from the autopsy, but those let's be clear. That shows like C B S's documentary on this case. It doesn't make any sense. You can't start off with the idea of that there was a a blow to the head. You cannot start that off. They believe this blow to the head would have made her brain dead should be unconscious. Minimum and then because of the brain swell and the brain bleed, should be brain dead and what happens if your unconscious or your brain dead? You do not put up a fight. If somebody is choking you right. So, let's be clear, no need to restrain the arms right from the perpetrators,
prospect. Right, and I know a lot of people are going to sit there and say well, but but all that stuff is to cover up. Some kind of accident, let's be clear, that yes and everybody involved in that show were irresponsible putting out that information. It's just factually, not correct, and if you want to I don't advise that you do this cuz. You might have nightmares about this, but go look at go look at, of Germany Ramses Neck and see all those half moons of that six year old girl trying to stop some way from strangling her. So this idea that was Burke accidentally hit her on the head or that or that during our changing of pajamas changing the sheets or whatever, that in Germany's bathroom right that that that she slipped and hit her head or
Tossed across the room by her mother or struck over the head with a flashlight, to the credit, I guess of the of the people that believe Burke may have killed his little sister, be an accident or whatever the skull fracture to me does look like it could have. Came by way of golf club, it I mean it there's Ike. If anybody looks at that picture and says I wouldn't think of If the club could make that warrior yet at strike, I would kill. Well then you're, you! You need to go, get glasses, my friend right, because it's straight up in the dimensions. So let's describe this because not every he's going to be fully aware of of this. The fracture All fracture is huge. It measures eight inches in length in the way that this works out is she
been struck on the top of her head, but it's more to the right, side right side of her head, yeah yeah and the the runs from where the, where the impact hit on the skull and it- all the way forward and then you have at the top where the impact took place, actually have a fool section that broke off it. It run eight inches in length total, but from where the point of impact. What we have here is picture of where you have a crack that runs down the majority of the right side of the skull at the top of that crack. Where it stops you, have a basically a rectangle shaped so the score that fully broke off on four, and that piece itself is quite small. I believe it's one in half inches by a half inch.
that's the rectangle there and then from there. You have you would have your remaining so it'd, be six inches of a fracture that runs from that broken piece there, yeah and and and cops were looking for this. This possibility as well, maybe not so much a golf club but did look into that? Burke had a bad and then they did some tasks and then realize they don't believe that would happen through a bat, not saying that the cops were saying that Burke hit her in the head, but there are look
for objects yeah. Ah, then you have a bunch of tests done on the flashlight. Again, I think that's it's reasonable to you see you have a bigger opening, bigger fracture. Then it goes to a thinner fracture. So maybe something like a a big flashlight. It would definitely have like the weight to it to to be able to do to be able to create that that type of fracture, but there's also a picture crime scene picture that There's this, though, most looks. I got one of like a fireplace tool. That would also be like if I were to walk around someone's home after seeing the the skull when the skin is pulled back and see the fracture itself. If I were, walk around any one's home and like pickup instruments that I think could have of made that impact and left that mark right on her left. That
action in that manner. I don't think I would go for flashlight, I'm not saying it's impossible. Go for flashlight, one gopher, bat, anything that's a rounded, doesn't seem to make sense to me. I see something where you you need like you need something where you're, almost seeing the like that broken piece of the skull is the outline of whatever hitter and that tomorrow, at me, like a year like a fire place too, or a golf club anything like right, but if you look through the colonels on possibly at its one hundred percent has to be, you know that the markings of what hitter yeah object hitter, but it had to have had a look at the I mean. Well, let me finish. My thoughts are so first. If you look at the crime scene, photos there there looks like some kind of a fireplace tool. I don't know what you call those, but it's right under the current those
if the poker things that you play Abbott is a whatever you know how, like some people have like the the poker's, and then they have the brushes and they have the a shovels and, and they have all different kinds of things. Okay right, it looks like there's wine and it's underneath the open window where the suitcases and you have to go through. There's tons of crime scene photos. To go through and you can see it laying on the ground. Now I can't it's blurry. I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I go We know where the we know where the paintbrush handle came from. It came from that room right that that was used in the What are we know that at some point She was in that suit case because we have all these fibers from her clothes that are in that suit case. So there were gonna use. Well, you you can say you know that I won't. I won't be on board with that, when I'm not
convinced that she was in the suitcase okay. But what we do have is a suitcase with a bunch of fibers from the clothes, though he was wearing that night. So well again. I don't know that they were the close and she was wearing that. I did well. That's the report that that I saw again, but that the end, I'm not sure I don't want to sound like I'm challenging you here, I'm I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying the information. I've reviewed doesn't state that same stuff right, but right where that suitcase, where that suitcases correct underneath that open window there's a crime scene photo that has some kind of object, and I just won't because have stated, we haven't, found the object of what hit her on the head right and here's what This is what I question: ok and all have to work on some order, like Lou Smite, keep calm Smith,
It's like his analysis of the the intruder. Theory doesn't work, it starts with a stun gun, but what does the stun gun to the incapacitates? The person renders them unconscious Some point right so merry likely to for a small person we're not talking about a full grown right. All we're talking about a very small child, How long are they incapacitated for this is what I would want. I I could yeah I don't think any of us can say because there's differing you know, there's varying degrees of evil stun guns, but just as analysis. It doesn't make any sense, because if I go okay, I'm going to go up to Germany's bedroom. And I hit her with the stun gun. That's what's going to allow me to take her downstairs. Okay, at what point does she eat pineapple so
well, we should be clear here for those dont don't know there was a substance found in Jonbenet upon the the autopsy findings that suggest that she ate pineapple or a substance that resembles an apple shortly before her death by and it was none digested right and then we have. Crime scene photos photos that have a bowl of pineapple with milk, which I've never heard of. If my mother fed me pineapples as pineapple in a bowl, that's weird I've heard of yogurt and cottage cheese, but never milk. I think it's milk again,
Don't don't quote me on that, but it's a but my thought is: okay, loose Smith Smith, Lou, smite, intruder intruder theory have her get downstairs. She wakes up she's supposed to be met by Santa Claus. At some point she goes downstairs. She sits at the table. She makes herself some pineapple. Maybe she doesn't make herself some pineapple. Maybe Burke made himself some pineapple, but he went to bed. He didn't finish it so that she sits there and decides how each piece of this that's the intruder would have to come in contact with her right or I guess she could have woke up in the middle of night. Went downstairs ate some pineapple went back upstairs possible. Ah then you used the stun gun. But again the stun gun doesn't make any sense, because once you start trying to control her with the grant, you need defensive
and I do want to point out here, though, to the purpose of the group may not be. Yes, it's can all, but not in the manner that I think that some might be thinking. It could be straight up for sexual assault right of control and I'm not going to go into it too much I mean maybe on the record or something I don't feel comfortable discussing. What the garage itself could have been used for The thing I will put my stamp on here, though, well before we get into that. Let's point out that where the stun gun idea comes into play is it there are pictures there were which really or fortunately, I guess, depending on how you want to look at its incredibly degrading to the victim's involved in this case, but actually photos word leaked to the press at some point and you can view them
online still to this day, based off of that, we loose smite who later says. Look you see these two little. What looked like little prong marks he's a disk. These came from a stun gun now you have other experts, you have Dr Warner spits and I'm trying to think of what he's most famous for he's cover he's done so many different cases. But, what are spitz where our listeners would know him, the best from would be from West Memphis three He was the one that that later viewed the photos and said hey, these marks are bite marks from a from turtles so that that's that He says when he views these photographs. These are not stun gun marks there there, but he would expect what he's looking for Stun gun basically is leaving an electrical burn type mark on the skin, yeah. I says that what he seeing it doesn't does not appear to be a burn to him,
I don't see that on her back the marks on their back than allowed people think her, like. Maybe a train tracks set which would have been in the room that possibly was molested in that all thing to. She has multiple scrapes and stuff on her back and marks on her arms and stuff. Like that, basically that she was squirming during the time that she was molested, and so could she got these marks on her back at that point. Yes, but the marks on her face to me. I see what looks like a burn between the two marks. You would expect a good deal of struggle and squirming if, in fact, she will being choked, and there was some type of sexual assault prior to death tat. This is what I said. I was gonna put my stamp on here, Captain bill. viewing the pictures of the skull, I don't know science,
not a pathological. I'm not claiming to be an expert. You take this for whatever you for what it is. It's it's. dumb guy in a garage giving his opinion now I said I should go, then should be my turn then, but what my appeal is based off of these photographs, the damage to the skull man. I don't think that bark would have had the strength, regardless of weapon to create this type of damage in one single blow. This looks to me to be one single solid hit to the skull. I also agree go further and say I don't think seen pictures of John Bathroom, the theory that Patsy lost control and through or across the room in this, with some kind of head injury that occurred when she got thrown across the room where she hit her head on something after being slapped by Patsy.
not seeing the Patsy's innocent. What I'm saying is this in We did not come from anything like that, in my opinion, this is a single strike, a very violent strike to the head. Singles with with a lot of strength behind in and a lot of force behind the other I will say to, I beg anyone go out there and look up the garage or what they are called in a garage in this case, because What I see here this is one rare times in the case, where you see some level of criminal sophistication and what I mean by that is this this weapon. This torture device here appears to me. This wasn't the first time whoever constructed this. This was not the first time that they put one of these things together, while most medical examiner call these not sophisticated. Yet these are not. These are not made by a nine year old,
When I look at this, what I see, if you I would if somebody would take the pictures it like. If I could go back in and see them in somebody. could take away the words John Buddy Ramsay from the photographs. Hand him to me and go what's that? What's this from? What do you think this is what I see their captain without any clouding my vision is an intricate torture device constructed for the sole purpose of. Assault yeah seems like most of the medical experts believe again during the sexual assault during this torture that this individual lost control and ended up hitting her on the head. But at that point the brain wasn't pump. The heart wasn't in pumping to the brain. Already, that's a real thing. I guess
in strangulation that that will stop first in it slows it along the way. Yet it is still the person still alive technically, but there's no blood or oxygen pumping to the brain. Now, meaning she'd be brain dead. They hit her on the head because it lost control or as part of their fantasy or whatever. I think that's a very good possibility, but, like I said, we have fibers whether you want it, whether you want to believe or not, because there's experts that contradict each other over and over, but there's fibers in that suitcase, and my thought is that this individual
for whatever reason, the sexual gratification was going to be better for them if they molested her inside the house. Knowing that our family was there, there was excitement there once they figured out she's dead. That wasn't part of the plan, the ransom notes already sitting on the staircase right. I have to get her out of here. I am going to use the suit case to transporter. I put her in the suit case at this point no blow to the head. I think it's possible that individual put her in that suit case and try to lift her
up through that window and then dropped her and landing on our head. Yes, it's the suit case would hit first but she's inside the suit case, and I think that's possibly what created that fracture. You pointed out. Something is very important in this case and just with every aspect of this case there, so many different, a pin since there. So many different, even expert opinions and regarding the autopsy itself, cause of death injuries to Jon how those injuries occurred we ve had many very reputable good, solid exports over the years, examine this case, but what they examined have been photographs and what they have examined have been doc, there's only been one pathologist to examine the body and that
Dr Myers MD in nineteen ninety six, The for all of our old episodes check us out exclusively on the stage Europe and we have a weekly show onstage premium caught off the record, cheers the you captain in thing everybody out there for listening. Thank you for telling a friend and thank you for all of the wonderful five star reviews. Please join us back here in the garage next week for episode five. Until then would be kind and don't let the.
Transcript generated on 2022-03-22.