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I'm dvd umbra join me for the newest season of counter clock, as I dive into the motive behind bruces murder and a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now. Binge all fourteen episodes of counter clock season, five, wherever you listen to pod, casts. I

the I welcome the true gram garage wherever you are, whatever you are doing things for listening, I'm your hosts. Nick and with me, as always, is a man whose mama raised him on huge slabs of meat. He is,

The big captain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be seen and it's good to see. You cheers mate and it's still snowing tonight. We are drinking lizard have caused by founders, brewing company and beautiful grand rapids michigan garage grade five at a five bottle caps. I love this stuff captain. This beer is perfect for the winter months. I like to start off my friday night with one of these on draft at my favorite spot lizard of causes packed with great flavor. It's a complex beer, but it has to be to mask the ten point: five, a b b. You should tell the listeners your favorite spot, so they show up I'm not going to do that, but you wouldn't even know or detect the high a bv, because the lizard of cars is full of chocolate, vanilla and wonderful, michigan, blueberries aged in oak barrels, and this fantastic brew is brought to us by this fantastic crew, see what you did there. First up, we have big pete from york, england, a big pete says. I hope I hope you can make it over to the uk when the browns play in london. I'd love to do something like that. Captain you're very well traveled have you ever been to london. Yes, I went every weekend every weekend. I went there once on a shorter trip than I would have liked. London is a great place to which everyone should experience. Next up we have cassandra in seattle who says: try some elysian split shot. That's an espresso milk stout from seattle, and her name was cassandra. Next, we have m and l were recruiting in massachusetts, let's go to oregon city and say hi to mark also, all the way in berlin, germany, we say hi and thanks to laura, and I would like to give a thank you to Angela in Australia who sent us a wonderful christmas package with a really cool australian beer cuz. It was full on man, it was full on. We were practically we've practically been adopted by Australia. The listeners don't know that, but yeah, that's where I'm fleeing to when the stuff hits the fan they they want to. They want to make our show a tv show, and they also

gave me a job, so the fallout plan for the garage is australia is what we're saying right, we're heading down, and so we want to thank everybody for pitching in for the beer fund this week and if you want to kick it up and bias bears for next we go to true crime, garage dot, com and click on the donation and for everything, social media. You can follow us at snapchat facebook, untapped. All that up instagram. I got a little instagram bet, my buddy, that I can't it's a a certain number by my birthday, so us make that happen, and he could do so at true crime garage enough of the bees and enough of Australia as well, so gather around grab a chair, gravel beer and let's talk some true crap. The

the then, are you ready are you holding on here, seek as we are going to new a quick update elden on something? This is a case that we ve covered, maybe more than any other case. We ve done a few episodes on this one way back in season one. We covered the long island serial killer case and managed to accuse many people along the way of having been the casual killer, or at least maybe you should talk to them a little further. We will not let this case rest at any time. There's a new development, we're gonna talk about it. We can talk to each other and we also asked for the wonderful joshua Zeman and rachel mills who did a fantastic job on the show killing season. I hope everybody check that out, because that was a the long island serial killer case as well as other cases throughout the country. I thought it was one of the best documentaries has come out in recent past. We ve asked them to join us to talk about some of these recent developments

Currently, it's on amazon, somewhere upper link in the show description to yes could check that if you haven't already one of the greatest things about this documentary is the end of every episode they they hook you down and they I dont know if it was Josh, I'm gonna, I'm will assume it wasn't josh in it. This was rachel's doing what it give the problem for that, but it's at each other end of each episode. You're like ok or maybe I watched the next one, but then they look yeah and then you go. I have to watch the next one. This is a very easy showed to binge watch the really, cool thing here too, as they got the web sleuth community involved in the show very cool, and you know I thought I really actually thought that that was going to be a cheesy thing, not because of the web sleuths thing, I'm a web sleuth or myself. I've been active on their twitter handle years. We're not going to talk about that, but if you're on there, it's not hard to figure out who I am and

the thing here is the thing here is, so I'm glad that they got him involved, but the thing that was really cool was the webs luther's that came forward that they actually had on audio and video. They had some amazing theories like some really good stuff to check out there and the great I'll get some of it is just not theory. Some of it is a great insight and actual knowledge a minute to start to some speculation. The other thing I loved about killing season was it. What was it about? Eight episodes? I think during the course of those eight episodes, there's about three or four really sketchy dude, that they come across that you're, like oh, my god, this guy is either he's either the killer. That they're looking for or he's done something that is that we should lock him up for so check. The killing season available on amazon. So a couple things happen with this documentary one they drove into new information. They try to uncover as much they could, but during the course a filming and added in a couple of things.

Out in this case that we want to talk about in the news and we're gonna. Take you down some different roads with these new developments in the long island. Gill go cereal murder case, but we are also going to take it down a different road on how we typically do these shows. I know that, typically, with with an interview show, it's usually just me and the interview ease. However, there were some conversations that I wanted to have been had between the captain and I regarding, ongoing investigation. Yes, discos between a little bit of in our view, and then we go back to talking so anyways we'll see in a little bit endless check in with Josh the first Congratulations on the show.

Killing season was recently on any, but I'm wondering how long ago were you done with the production The show been developments in the case. Since then, did you remain involved in the investigation? Ah, that's a great question. Additionally, I guess you can say that we were done filming last year, january of this past year, she doesn't sixteen, but I'm editing process takes a long time and with an active investigations, It can happen and I'm Did you not literally episode? Eight things things broke may two thousand and six in awe, in long island, and that was the county executive m that he was demanding. Sport is rightly resignation now that have happened to him. and leadership, but that was interesting, Openly, at a back up,

and they show you we would be able to include an into the last episode that was literally the last day of editing right this you have it elected officials demanding the indignation of the district attorney in part by what happened in the case of images. Flabbergasted ever still He was always happen, you know and it Is there anything besides? It's just a star. One very fascinating part of the killing season was that you chose to work with the web sleuth community. Now I'm a big fan of web sluice. What would. you're take away from working with the participants. You know that the west interesting group it was really interesting. We wanted journalists to look for work not only look at like what the case. What was happening with the case will look at what was most interesting to them wesley community.

You know why we wanted to make it crime Shoalford your crime, junkies. You know and that is really good, worthless and also like day had down there. On thirty and thirty one pick up where I left off now. Things like the western community, like you know, they're very Particular You know, you've got some really interesting first on their all different backgrounds are all different styles, all different like levels and like you communication, and it was very interesting having people were sceptical, though at first we didn't want to reveal who they were right right, you re leg. They were very nervous of fun yeah it's very easy to hide behind a handle or a screen name or some security, and that so for for two filmmakers to come in and kind of you know You take with them and try to get them. born out of it

missing by them. Yeah, I dunno, I don't want to go and go. I don't want to go and feel like you've got. Such great ideas come on. You know, but you know- is interesting because ass, the whole thing and that's a good question, actually because it's really like it about trying to bring the case out from the shadows out front. like behind the veneer of like the cable hundred graces I'm really highlights empower people just regular citizens. Did you ah did you say you know it's interesting within the western community in going down the right of all the long island, zero killer formed on that site? the arms something bigger this year, the hole in the case I am from a public. The employees What's a similar kind of rises to his heart I'm an actively came out when we discovered through one through field, notes

the mother of a time there was not a name. I don't I do with it much longer to figure that out of his hand, he begins at anything and then to really understand what that means, when the repercussions of not having my name and now boiler fast forward. You know to a couple weeks ago now that she is in name ass because of our communication, Josh myself, and now I think you had matthews onward. Where the metaphor grammars office in africa is that now she is in numerous and we got we're just gonna. We wanted to It should not happen. We will, you would call we wouldn't custody erika right, but what we can do something small, however, that small thing has now kind of death the biggest break in the case the development of a key here since April two thousand It was really like the last

Thing I don't know like Jane doe number three was the mother of its heart. Yet, just to back up a little bit of other bodies were found along ocean partway. There was a mother and a top, nobody quite nose like tom How do you do in their sex workers? You know it the big question is it a sex workers being brings a baby along on track we now know actually happens quite big thing so or, as some people have said, You know it is a different sort of relationship, as this is my family who the killer killers knew. How could this even need awakened the child? So this toddler was found is very very interesting because that's like you, a lot of clues to go off of a you can't just give birth. Without learning about wreckers. You know, so

You know a these. Victors are really like under the radar sex workers, and now you got a mother and so is really for a lot of people by really strange thing is we thought that it was being really gps This is one reason why people thought was law enforcement was because the person down the by separating intentionally separating the mother and child left, the child, basically next to another by knowest painter, number six ends and dump the mother. literally across the county line in nassau county now, all these. I ain't gonna buy victims. There are found itself. It has decided this of this crime scene in his name is but for some reason, nassau accounting wasn't pudding, jeanne going in and from

I just emailed him, and he said, oh, who are we? We can't put this person in because these body parts year. I think it was like some trinity you're doing all we can put these bodies here. We can't do this, chiquita reference in it, because it is already in name, what do you mean? What do you mean Actually, we believe this victim to another victim named peaches. Now, reach nine enquired about peaches. teachers, whether another victim as member torso, that was found forty miles east enhanced there, but we all know in this case whirled around, we will all be dismemberment, lies around, and you know you think, there's not that many, but actually there's a lot of dismemberment. You know the question is whether or not a it's a

the counter measure to prevent identification with somebody. Like enjoying dismembering somebody's as as peel granted suggested with them so as a result, now basically been proven that Jane doe number three is linked to features. In fact, the body parts based on which we now know dna is completely extends the phrasing the killer is now learn as now. Not just don't buy. bill he'll, be here also doubt by enhanced there. and that is Forty miles even closer to new york city you start thinking about. Who is this? from new york city is he lived,

for his queen. You know: you're, really, changes. Everything and disturbing part. Is that some candy perry knew this inasmuch as we knew that this victim was late, but didn't tell anybody. and that's what I think we found so interested. I mean it's not. Im trying to get information out of the police car more of of why the police are doing forthright as possible and if the answer is well, there's an active serial killer now roaming around two counties- I I get it but, but I dunno I mean you would think the public deserves to know. So that's where we stand with at least that I just darkness. Do we have a known cause of death for either peaches or the toddler, or at least how the remains were found well, first of all,

Even further with lies are interesting. Do I say Ninety seven vs, ninety six him without how that changes. So the other thing was found in a rubber- may- have been yeah off a trail in a state park, but it's really like time, really a car nerve, and also just some until she forgets shoe was, found probably within three days of having been or so this body is a torso, a dark skinned person and a there's, a a to a peach on it and it's just a torso bitterly amidst action there now I know I know had and. You know the way was presented being found. This rubber made public the idea. This is something that was due to appear bread.

You know, even in tat, place there to be found there is more than just frantic friend countermeasures. when you're chopping up this body, its author there's a little bit off by heart, looked like it You know look at what I've done and see how hark rhythmic? I am by the most interesting thing. His body was found in. He said it now going back to the bodies that are found along the beach and never the earliest one was ninety six. That's that person those fire island, jane, doe. Ninety nine states, a pair of several, lays washed up in a plastic bags. On fire and now in the united states, and then in two thousand and eleven and the rest of it. Women's remains killed a beach. Now we do no.

If the person really connecting you know, this is one of the things that maybe you think there's numerous different killers around there and everybody's just using this area. Dumping ground. You know me three, but now, when you have this woman's severed lifespan and ninety six and then the toys sold down in ninety seven, you start to poorer yeah there. You start to see a little bit more. You know god yeah! Well, then I'm just Does that there was that gap between ninety six and are you going to do that? then number is another sex, taylor and three and then fast forward to two thousand and seven, when the first of the gogebic forward went the thing which was a two thousand. now as marine, so having peaches now directly linked to go down. You bring everything back a little bit. Ninety seven revolution mobilise exulting natura, two thousand two thousand and three two thousand and eleven

to fill in and then wait where you have these periodical gas in your life. No, no! No! That can't be the same guy. Suddenly, you know, there's a difference between a four year gap and a three year gap. Saying are: so really brings into question. Why is it now? We will be back of what may be this one killer, We definitely now started to daylight. Well, you know so that was, I think this revelation yeah, I would say, on todd, Matthews been working with us very closely, five argues that the director of the media director, it is right to have name ass m would use the public database, yes without and his own, he started what what's with their back then, but it as for the doe network yeah, you just do networks yeah. He he's a he he's very

because, if the guy, who found discovered girl, why that was his own case for like twenty so easily as as well is now running, interact imitation Maybe so different times out but I bring him off and I bring the profit that because you mordioux within very closely to the path I mean for years, but there have over the past month and between all got the mother of the top engineers, hard on through competition, but I've had with him I'm a big big progress and I think he is now but more energy from his side into looking out the rest, the identifies the more active. I have more energy from his side, which is just like making casting a couple of more people with with making sure that all the biometrics are in, like the the the denver recorded everything and there's also

ways that they can work with with dna. as well, they can be more and they can outreach more to possible people who could be connected to that. I don't wanna, say too much about it, but that should be coming sometime soon. So You know me. Guy in this always wanted to do was really bring intentions in this case and maybe try and identifying somebody we always said that is application of these identify, which is really a key disturbing, Also, I think you think eu empowering people showing the interested into crime he's like warm, knocking the car, but you get go out there and when you can identify yeah, he can help identify and usually goes shoe major break left. Yesterday, I'm gonna bring up there, the penalties, I rang early on coming back from

you know holiday week, and I go into one lives, and I see that my inbox it for from people think tat. You see about the pillowcase you see by the talkies they go online and the websites there so just sit back up when p, It was found that rubber me container back and ninety seven I've killed a sham and tat was found with her and no one had figured out like where the came from or like I've done, the the the really deep work to see. You know you know what what was it. Who was the manufacturer? Where was you know where me if someone bought that in long island or new york- or you know circa nineteen, ninety seven m, so they actually were able to chase it back and have discovered it was manufactured, I believe, between ninety ninety five requires certain manufacturers that always soul to these points. The right now we were speaking they are hard at work at figuring out and cross everything. Where that what store me that have come from me,

That might might sound, not significant, but yeah. We didn't know that putting the mother of the child and nemo was going to be as significant as it was. You just know that you never know right now. It's like okay, like did he get it at macy's in, like the roosevelt mall, you know all these things are going to point to where the until his end, when you're talking about your profile thou africans really signal so that one day I invite you to say robust, that kind of specific information and what what's users do so so great and where I understand enforcement. Not wanting to include was too there is eat out in all these investigations. I understand their hesitation by, for instance, if they got only minor that information already, we all know, but if they have information like that of like but cigarette,

where this object was from and could spend the states much manpower because there there, as we always say their overworked and underpaid for those the kind of things this supervisor The The. all right, we'll get back to our interview with joshua and rachel right after this quick beer but less tickets. Second and talk about two of the grossest words in the english language, dog food dog food is literally how we describe food, so growth are tongues, one touch it with a ten foot pole kind of makes sense. Kip It's so over process, so cook chris

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oh fresh dotcom, slash garage sixteen and you code garage, sixteen for sixteen free meals, plus free shipping that's hallo, fresh dot, com, slash garage, sixteen america, number one meal kit, alright and more back from our beer break. You have got to get the public involved when it comes to these cases, especially cold case, and we have seen with cases that we recently covered. We covered the Jacob waterline case a couple weeks ago. An we saw, in that case it's twenty seven years old and a blog gets involved in starts piecing together crime, that were related to the Jacob wonderland case and

it. What I'm getting at here is that it seems almost shameful to me. I understand that law enforcement needs to hold certain things close to the vast, because they have to be able to verify if a confession is real or not, and no if somebody is an actual suspect, but we see something like with the Amy michalek case twenty six years, through the fact they come forward and they say you know what we found. this curtain or we fell this rug at the crime scene, and we believe that its part of the crime scene that its part of the victim that its linked to the victim here can can the public help trace these. Have you seen these before? Did you know anybody that owned this curtain or this rug, but asking twenty six years later, people move away, people pass away, people forget What is shameful to me is that it's so late in the game I like with the list, investing, nation that they're coming forward with this information. Now and asking do you know about this pill

tasteless figure this out in that's what the web sleuth community is so good at. Why? I do think that true crime community in general is good. At I mean where all arm chair detectives. I think that's why we get into the genre right so ended in You know recently, you know we covered a case, our seas and one that you now is close to our home town. But there is some developments that were trying to make behind the scenes. Ah, you know we haven't really talked about that on the show, but we don't really want to discuss the until there's some validity to what. Basically you discovered it. I can't take the credit for that well so, but took to put to you josh in rate or talking about, yearn, getting website the name is involved in these things were been working with local long for men here and the name is organization for

several months, trying to put some things together here and were hoping to see some developments and a case that that we worked for nine, never knew what name ass was yeah. Ok, so this explain that to some of the audience listeners might not know what it is. So it's it's it's not missing persons, its unidentified remains or unidentified bodies. You know so every jurisdiction throughout the country they find unidentified bodies, Jane doze, John doze, and they put into this system. It's called the name system because they know that the view I want to be named, you know, identify ass, a good name for the so so the name system they they are able to put in certain amounts of information, regarding these jane dose and john does, and that the problem with it is, it can be very vague information, so on a national spectrum right now, it's voluntary, so so

enforcement is not required to go in and put anything in there they are not required to check name is about it has recently developed in this country, which has great it's a great thing. They try to get it pass nationally, that it would be quiet act. The lawn we met would be involved in the debate They have to put all this information into the database correct and right now, what has taken place is there's only two states in the country that have passed this and made it law, but started with connecticut and then it moved to new york where the is now a requirement that they are checking these, that they are putting certain information in there now any but he can go to, and I recommend that you do so go to name is go to their website. scowled around on there and see. What's going on in your community or if there is a case that you're interested in and missing persons or somebody that it's been lost for four years. Where you can you can

troll through their in and figure out, what's going on and see if there's any kind of match it, some the information is vague, because this is voluntary. Some it's very descriptive and detailed. But the thing here is law enforcement force meant and b, I they actually have the ability to get onto nameless and they can see different information than the general public can so it's a valuable source so valuable piece. The debt is not required and should frankly be required in all set well the same rights. This all stems from this. The new paradigm is guy billy, some away from we actually interviewed, smolinski small family go on the Amy site. You can actually see in this my excuse, you can actually even see We had our teachers

before we knew and everyone, including because we can never like, say: oh she's, a definitive victim and so by now later at one of the shows dozen peaches really is a victim and it's funny because we did all of a sports trying. she was tat. You can actually go on his back. He needs, it can't be regional content about peaches, but this is hell they were trying to pass a law for years Billy's law as it is in place The problem is that this how is the enemy? Isn't? I'm sorry when missing person. Information enters into the database, different databases, their faces: a police chauncey. It is these that the public can see and they're not didn't work together and that's because enforcement wants to put some information and they all want the public to see. But what happens is no offense

a lot worse than anybody, but you know and three is not one for me Are you talking to me anybody pretty much? You know these guys around like having to hit the streets and life fine killers not have hunting impacting on a computer. The same information. so as a law. As a result, a lot of this kind of missing persons stuff is all like yeah, just kind of gets messed up like you know what was the person prior You know what you know what they want in nineteen. You know, Seventeen seventy six years earlier little number changes. You know. Are you note in totally do it? So You know you're, never going to be your best that nobody else is going to be. The best advocate you're out you missing persons like your family, so they

this law in connecticut and in my view, the guy, the horseman we interview you know- I have this thing that real they happen. This information you was apparent- needs able to go in and looking information and make sure that the information that the commission shall actually correct because what they had found out. Is that all the missing persons and made better king was incorrect and so on through the databases because it all incorrect practice connecticut. on a positive note, chris murky, interestingly enough try to get this bill tat nationally, but anything that required by law enforcement, nothing path nationally, so unfortunate, die red eyes now, an absolutely fascinating for us like come on missing people. You know what I'm saying like how the information that you know it is the same

a tragedy, but unfortunately, I did it and now so now it's happening through states, and so it was the first connecticut chris Murphy now cuomo signed it and that's part of the reason. Part of the reason you know, and recently there was an article that is specifically about this case and specifically about nameless, and they are talking about. The unease. Dennis I deceased missing persons that are out there and how name can be involved in this and the interesting thing here when we talk about the long island serial killer case. This article stay the mass all county where bodies were found we have- eleven unidentified deceased persons and in suffolk county, where some of the other bodies were found. In this case we have one seven unidentified missing person, the deceased bodies yummy that to me, that's a crazy statistic.

Is everyone, and not only crazy, but that scare it's a heavily populated area. You know so the you. You might back the hired number there. However, these are more recent cases. This isn't going back to the beginning of time. This is in more recent times Water granted is alive. Space inside there's you know, but it's is really interesting. You know as we can kinda get more granular with our data and that's something we try to show in the whole the whole series, whether it's you know tom, are gross accountability project. So those who are familiar with this tom hard grove was investigator and he said I gave journalist Jani set up this non profit organization that basically tracks unsolved murders. Yet at some nation wide and actually, when they started putting this data to they're in collecting it, cataloguing it once he but in all that work and all that effort there was a

he, was a bit hesitant to release this, because I saw an interview with him and he stated you know I felt like By releasing this to the public were almost saying you know what, if you want to give you a kill. Somebody, and you want to get away with it, then You can do that in Detroit. You can do that and Chicago you. You could prove, we kill somebody in one of those cities in and nobody ever catch you for. He was worried about that portion of it. However, investigative lee and the amount of help that it could do. The inward first to that is what is much more important and what we're going to see you know this is holding local law enforcement. Accountable is not just reading about somebody dying. Found somewhere. In the months later. You read about somebody else or a year later, you read about somebody else. No, it's it's putting it altogether in one place to look at it and say: woe thirty! That's a high number, thirty, five! That's that That is unacceptable and are they connected yeah

do we have a serial killer here. Do we have a group of people doing this for some reason these murders are going unsolved and we ve got to hold law enforcement accountable to that. we are paying their. I mean and it was sound super negative towards law. Forced me, because I support law enforcement. Obviously, a bunch friends involved in it, but that's The reason why we have law enforcement? This is the reason why we have taxes in that in our cities and going to something that Joshua end rachel we're talking about earlier, that's an The thing to you know when these cases go cold, even if it's just a couple months, if they ve got nothing if they ve got no leads. Let's presented to the public: let's get this crowd, sleuthing, involved and see how we can take these cases off of our books and put people behind bars and light said before I mean we ve always choked. You know the true true crime group. But our art listeners we like to calm the true crime army and

that's essentially what all these other podcast in all these documentaries are doing as as it I was more more popular genre. You know there's a lot of intelligent people that dive into these cases as a hobby, and I I think we're gonna start seeing more and more is- is solved by the true crime army, no one has been the only thing which I felt so interesting when we were talking about earlier when life on the police come again. You know, save all. We need help identifying who this individual is twelve years ago either will find its way but, like you always have to make it, you get to think like a a movie or think like you I have to make it engaging for the audience I'm staying like you'd, be here now we're not in the days of you know,

it's ten o'clock? Do you know where your children are or call this thing on? Call this face on a milk carton or even america's most wise. You know like to point out in our enemy to point a world you Like me engaging like you. The show people that their things can be done when first Tv show We have had this whole thing this in back, the thing, and now everybody is all in this case, and now you really do have people and chance to actually solve it. One of the things that I like the most about the killing season- and I didn't know this in advance. Even having talked, before the show came out. I didn't realize you're going to travel around the country and check out different cases. I thought this was all going to be long island and you ended up covering some cases that we ve covered on. This show and I have some suspicions about the long island serial killer case and that that

comes from one of the cases you covered. We covered, though mace it body pit case or bone Lecter, as he's been referred to One thing we were able to point out on our show was that Of the eleven victims found five of them knew one another. We re the connect, the five of them, and I have a suspicion that, with the long island case, if we, if we couldn't let's leap here and think and say maybe one person did all of these murders. Well, there's a lot of bodies right it. It would be. hard for me to believe that some of the victims did not know the killer, and I dont mean that it was like a boyfriend or best friend or or somebody that they had a long term relationship with, talking about. Maybe it's a frequent customer or somebody that they had known from the area. There is a reason why some of these girls went with this guy and that leads and that leads me to my other suspicion regarding the long island case. Is it

baby and I don't mean to discredit your website luther who said that we probably have a torso killer in the area, We we very well may have while just be clear in the documentary one of the web sleuth guises. He comes out, saying, hey, look, there's a chance. So there is not just one killer than theirs, possibly too, and is evidence of that is that there is a torso killer, I believe, believes that there is a torso killer. So if you go with one being a torso killer and one to spin dumping of body, and not cutting them up, then we have to killers and I would suspect in either situation. You know whether b to killers or whether it be one that the the difference in how they're leaving the bodies to me points out that there are some way to trace the murder from the victim. And what I mean by that is, if you essentially he's the tour

who killers taking these bodies apart, he's removing all the identifiers from the body and he's just leaving a torso so, therefore, if you, if you need the hands or that the eyes are the face or the head to to identify the body, if you can't find those, you can identify the torso that I had to get rid of her so there or to me. Placing o torso in a rubber tub and dropping it of a trail and a park somewhere just to me like a quick way of getting this thing out of my car and leaving it somewhere and furthermore, I don't really care if it takes you three hours to discover what I have left. In the park or if it takes you three weeks, because you cannot trace it back to me, why the am I I thought too, on you know either it's crazy to think that a killer can't change. We ve seen at multiple times. in the past, where you know so they might kills may with a gun and then kill all their other victims with the knife? So I

This idea that these serial killers never change. They always the same way. That is, I think, historically, that's been proven. False Actually it's it yet you're exactly right. It's been proven time and time again that they most of em do change they adapt and here's. What typical happens in these cases where you have a spy of many bodies over the span of many years right. So what tippit, happens is either a they get better at what they're doing and they improve make it harder to catch or to their sir. thing outside of the actual act of killing changed in their life, maybe at one time the date they lived with other people, rather they the dump in one way, and now they live alone, and they have different means, and they have more time and more privacy to do whatever they need to do that That's one way they changed another way that they change. We saw what ted Bundy here

are losing control and he's just becomes a frenzy killer. After at some boy, he's ease less thought out and he's just disorganized beforehand. He was very organized and another. situation we ve seen and multiple cases, and this happens a lot is they start get lazy. They start to get. They think that their good at what they do. After a few bodies, they ve not caught me. I've been out here runnin around for years. They ve not caught me. They can't there's no way they can catch me. They don't even know what they're doing. I don't to make the extra effort anymore. You know that point number one: no I'm now. You know I haven't done this publicly before, but you know now kind of thinking about the one killer me get lazy you now, just like a reckon, you know, was turning up it first and then decides not to

you know there, it was looking at their hair how how its members they were earlier and like you and how have the dismembered victims, how they started to be less and less dismembered You know this that, in an eye we all, may we may find out that actually at least an issue for side the girls may have worked together. I'm you know may have been very interesting. because we were able to find out that so many of them knew each other, but in vain he didn't go and she wanted to show the actual. Some of them actually knew each other, for they all went to the same grammar school, The thing that we were able able to point out on our show improve on our show, which was really cool, was that there was a call or who had called the mother of one of the victims, now the collar herself she's a sex worker and He tells the mother that you, your daughter, is dead, she's been killed along with another girl and thereby

it's going to be found in the west mesa body bit and it turned out later that this girl they had called she's found in that same pit as well with those with those other two girls. So it's easy to link those three together and when we were all yeah and the big question is this: how did this lady? No call the mom of the victim right. Then, who did she know to get this information from and then how the hell did she end up in the pit exactly well. But the crazy thing here, though, is that we were able to prove that she knew at least two of the other girls. So you can, if you were pairing five of the victims together and proving that they knew one another. Furthermore, the the girl that called the of being found later? Now, though, ass time. She spoke to her parents before she was reported missing. She had all them and she was very excited. She had a new boyfriend. He just got out of prison. They were going to run away and get married together. She never identifies the boy friend the parents never meet him. We don't know his name, however its,

through this phone call. A few months later, she's reported missing and then that she's found in the west mesa with along with these other girls, two of which she named by name and Five that we're all linked together per hour show well let me just give you a little bit of advice this year and two thousand seventeen. If start date in a guy and he's he's, love your life and he just got a prison doll Your parents that part ok, a stunt good, at least tell his name yeah. Or make sure you get his fingerprints and you saw. Did you see the latest developments in the maze a case? from a month alone. I'm not really sure what you told him. I thought you weren't real fast, so Lorenzo montoya through a lot of things is the number one third are too, is completely killed on or dead at soldiers Only some journalists put pressure on the wreckers department at albuquerque police department.

And got release some videos: hey loretta lorenzo montoya and news roma some new, it's it's lorenzo, you can't see him, and what they release was like a static like a static video like his bad inside people and then on the sound what sounds like duct tape, the import, though, the idea is that he was there with some women actually release photos of these women too, and that you now we know if these go in the past Events. You now evidence that he is the killer bite. It does exhibit that's if that sounds caresses, tape, and you hear garbage backs that you know him. I have been involved in his mother, knew their nefarious actively other than

the one murder that we do know he committed well alright, but just between me and you and everybody else is going to listen to this case yeah. I really don't get the vibe that they're actively investigating the west mesa case. I feel like In this case. What has happened here is that they discovered all these bodies. They spent a good year or two working the case. They have a suspect who's dead. They have a suspect that is behind bars for another case, and I hear they're just saying. Okay, well, that's going to have to be good enough while and then we see this all the time when there's a bunch of sex workers that go missing. They do because because of the public fear, because the public outcry yeah they put a little work into it. But once again, out of that, once the public hasn't talk about anymore, I think they're really does up their hands and they go look. These women were put in themselves endanger so look their sex workers were but a spin, all this time and energy to try to solve their murder We need action

he's got their bill, we're like we were there that's what we like make a phone call. I like the hotline because they weren't speaking to us, so we were like going to call a hotline or try and speak to them, but we couldn't even get through because both the numbers were down as though we the first reason that they weren't going to speak to and then you you know you see like. Oh my god, guys like you, know, you're your hotline or even working. I mean how you know how much work does it take to do that, and I think you know a hour helpfully calories a really tough place. You know they've had Real issues, law enforcement. We spoke into law enforcement, stress then, and there like a little bit like reactionary jimmy. We are all agreed,

I've seen a lot to do something, but it also is a systemic problems. yeah well and then with a case. As always as always, it was me the gates and everything they fucked up from the beginning. Looking impact, I envy then investigate the department of justice and not for this. other civil right violations course of investigating this kind of case with so many victims. That's all You may come up with something: that's not gonna reflect. to good on yourself as a police department. That's always a concern Well, maybe there then two to three you know, different kinds of leadership going over the past decade. A book like you, do your bass the media. Was there

the ability of your predecessor, radicalism, in a couple of years, one thing like shirley wanted to do the work. There are also a little freedom and then they're going to have to like probably be like. Oh, you know, I don't mean a change such subjects here, but regarding the long island case there bought on your show, where you're interviewing either the new chee for the new commissioner of police and there's discussion of an fbi profile regarding the long island serial killer and he has said that he is going to do seek that out and have the f b. I do it in and has that been addressed? Has it been presented to the public? has not been addressed. He promised to deliver results. his heart bank. I learned from my regulation: hidden promise it over to us. He said that a profile is going to happen next year with anyone yeah yeah.

One of the biggest updates in this case since the documentary the killing season, but- on amazon, you can check that out now on amazon put a link again in the show description, but why the big that came out with a police chief, charges against him his face in his in law, but a hot water can talk about the low but yeah. So interesting rates, tweets from a woman clearly assess more her and we met her. I definitely in the car and she told us that she allegedly had sex with the former chief of police a house in oak beach, Angelo police officers and that workers are decreasing,

in the world or for them to. I guess the point was the assets in the bathroom. basically four miles away from where eleven bodies, were found it basically four months after so now. You like You know you're, just literally, you know you ve, so many bodies of sex workers found here. You are appreciate having sex with effects work, just like around a lot literally and just a couple months later and is what number one is called tasteless you know. beyond the bounds of late. You know but you should be representing a police officer by two- I view that sends a different message You know you really care about. What's going on, and so there has been a lot of thought and where a lot of other places that,

the police. have you been incarcerated for, for violating a guy's rights, a guy basically broke into his car or house. At the time he was a heroin addict, were told that they would actually break into specifically police cars to steal drugs. because sometimes the police officers have drugs and, apart from evidence or would have yet thomas guineas? they ve been new cards, they are getting into and they stole the progress of this police chiefs and inside the car they found a duffel bag and instead of dumping things, they found this, like quote, unquote: nasty porn. I'm, not quite sure what now,

means, but you've gotta be pretty nasty for someone to call it and ask for the corn, so uh take your already for instead, I'm so. The police chief goes to the guy's house as like he's being arrested. It takes the guy in life, starts beating the shit out of him and this mysterious duffel bag disappears. and the point disappears- which gives you some any case- I mean what we're looking at suddenly comes out of it. I have been doing eleven lot of other things, he's tat gives him a dossier, a lead, maintaining pursuits and All this talk about this guy was running a sex range of greece, cheap and vienna. At a point where people were like saying: oh my god, please the long island serial. It's got enough, but you know we now have a secular, whose corroborating that she did have sex with this police chief,

not too far away just really close. And so let us be clear for a minute, because, with these allegations coming up with the sex worker, she saying hey. Look. I had sex with the police chief right and I had sex. This party with the police chief. and we don't know if it was we are assuming that is paid for right cell. And what we do know about the long island serial killer cases that we have shared and gilbert, which was at a party Would she something goes awry? She leaves the party calling nine one, one saying they are trying to kill me now and then her body is found months and months or years later yet, and it's it's debatable. If shaming, gilberts, even a victim of the long island serial killer here, but we have you're talking, a sex party or or a party where we're being entered and by a sex worker. The former police chief had sex with her in the bathroom at this oak beach party

We are talking about shame and gilbert being present at an oak beach party. Now, obviously, these are two completely separate different parties, but we have a situation here where Joe brewer, is been investigated in some people say that he's been cleared of any ronnie responsibility and shaming gilberts death, but the problem, rest rang with additional people that are at that party. This wasn't just a joke. Brewer party, this was multiple people at the party and we have unidentified persons at this time. Because Joe borg was not investigated until well. After the fact right, so one could speculate that, possibly what if there was the police chief, add this party and if the police chief, at the party and Joe Your brewers cleared that maybe Joe, shut up and cleared Maybe he's only cleared to cover up for the unidentified persons that were at the party, and this also points out the frequency and these type of events going on and oak beach

and we also said a lot of these victims of the case when their fur and family are being interviewed. There were saying, look we're goin out. These parties are goin out to meet somebody in this house, and the amount of money as way higher than it should have been like a law and an it is this. The sick sex ring where they're using these women and they don't care about him than their disposing of them? Because they are? They are people of power and saw that that's kind of war were out. I stopped coming from one source now, of course, you can to hear these rumours year after year on this, the first person whose come forward but to kind of I'm legitimize our statement. More people need to come forward and more women misinformed I think they are hard yeah room, not rumours that murmurings that and it's a scary thing right. If you're, a woman who ah

It's going to a landed there were. These sex parties would probably drives with powerful people and law enforcement. That's that what are you gonna better off that sir I very much like a movie why we didn't want too much credence in it. I'm also because he took away the real investigation, but at the same time something is rotten in denmark and- Fortunately, this is what happens probably wrong spectacularly. We rode here, isn't what happens in a lot of cases where you know you ve got. Please officers are listed, doing really bad things and it s changing me. The investigation so we'll start kinda going off on the on the conspiracy rather than maybe this guy is the killer or something like that, and it's it's nothing this the killer. It's it's! You know the tragic events.

and the bringing at every thirty wandering in an that's definitely what's happened here, ok, so joshua rachel with all these new developments. What do you think that this is going to leave? I mean I am less interested. And the third parties will reach it. Interesting. Maybe there is something there, I'm more interesting. in a fine he's, unidentified identified victims. I think that's part, the biggest possibility to create a timeline via anyway. I find in your free time on your your building up that narrative to them go backwards and you know cross reference and if, not only because it is on that front. We don't know, we don't know because you dont, even as they are moving forward when trying to idea peaches trying to the asian mail shouldn't working again with time. I'm hoping that we didn't do something there, there's still ginger number six the fire engender. My missing

Ishmael carries a man, I mean look, the problem. We believe in this case is that one. The best thing to do is a concentrate on the missing on identify on identify. Not from the other side to the other the sexy and exciting and her waiting rather than just ideas, some person tragic! It's not! You know surfer and blow my island, but you know. I think the most interesting thing is is all the people who are now talking about this chaos, and you know it it's interesting, because, like it, a tasty you know, and then the shows bosnia and then somebody else's that you know it is just requires a lot. At time a lot of effort and a lot of coverage. Basically- and this is why we continue

you do shows like yours, you think is great. You know about reaching out to two people who want to see these cases get stopped, and we really believe at this point in the power of crowd sleuthing. You know whether it's absolutely go network project, whatever The answers are out there well you're yours, who has brought this case to what I ll to call present day sleuthing to present day true crime army, it's it's more than just people sitting at home watching dateline, you know now our show is very interactive with our listeners and we get tips from our listeners as well as theories and case suggestions, and we love all that we love having that interaction. We feel like we're one big, army of ants working together collectively with one consciousness yeah? What were workin on right now and thin spearheading work, hoping approve something, and in any case, that we cover and if we can do so than were part of a bunch of

this happening. It started primarily through cereal. and by bringing that to the conscious forefront, look, what's happened with that and if he gets a new trial or if they offer him. My awful plead that is directly linked to the public pressure. I believe and then, if you look at other, shows like missing, Maura murray showed dedicated to one case, What they brought to light as well, and again with the cereal cage, got undisclosed, anna truth, justice and stuff like that, and if it wasn't for this collective There wouldn't be motion in allow these cases right right. They would be Still standing still, they would be colder than ever, and what great about the killing season is. They went out of their way and championed a place like

absolutely and brought them in. They brought them out from their basements and they brought the webs luther's out from behind their computers and put him in the forefront, ranch roles. They put him in the forefront of the investigation and loud and allowed their opinions, their theories to be voiced as well, I mean there were such good speculation. from some of these wets webs losers on this case, and I think what you're can see here- captain You're gonna see this type of trending upwards, where, where and one can only hope so where we're going to see the document arians working with the arm chair detectives, where we were already seen, podcast working with armchair detectives and we're gonna. start to see law enforcement working with the whole group The document areas with the pod castors with the webs luther's, with The armchair detectives and it can only bring good- can only help the cause jen one of the things that are

pressing with what workin on right now is at first, we kind of felt silly like outward vista were. Does a true crime? Podcast like our is are any of these detectives gonna take our thoughts, serious we got kind of lucky because we have a detective friend there Now we can drop his name in that kind of helps, but I've been really surprised lately with your theories. Case, and I am sorry that work gonna be an secretive about, but again we will and we're not talking about the long island case, we're talking about a case that we ve been working but weep. We ve gotten luck, That there is a cold case detective in Columbus, that's been interested in talking with us and we spoke to in the past about a previous case. Gained some knowledge and were I mean to you you gotta shake some trees and see what falls out right and and I think the smartest people now certainly when you're a room of of a bunch of evil.

Smart person. I believe that you are well aware: That answer might not always come from the smartest person or from the expert. You know not You know normally when they have these cases. There. when they have these cases. You know I witness or somebody that saw some. Then it comes out later in that opens up a whole another can of worms, so it have to be an expert that solves these things, because I mean look you know. I never was this true crammed junkie now part of true crime garage. You know I just did it so I could you know how I know how to record audio. So let me get involved, and even this dummy you know, had some pretty interesting thoughts on some cases throughout our last summer. The episodes or whatever well in the great part of it too? Is that these these documentaries, you know it was, it was once the only the tv waves. Were reaching everywhere. Ok

Now we have all these great true crime, podcast out there, that the we have listeners in russia, you know at an end. In australia in germany in the uk in canada all over the place, and what great about that is the are finding that there's community and their everywhere, and that should be scary to the bad guys? It's gonna get harder and harder to hide. As technology It's better and the community of these these forces get better So when you are diving into these cases, no You might be the one that stumbles upon something that could make a break in something working with the web sleuth community, and I that they have a lot of good theories on this case. What were so the better theories that you heard. I know you will have time to investigate all of them. The threads on this case are amazing. What were some of the theories that were presented to you? did you go One you! What else.

Bobby criticism. Teacher said we went over that and how can we went over that yeah here I get always law enforcement, every one of our cases. Every like must be long. Likewise, I think we might expect upon his before, but it is, interesting and I don't think, we've ever quite nail the understanding of this but basically, when you haven't seen her case, a statue lunchtime as a number of victims. The public typically needs an answer, providing cases unsolved, and may we have this need to define it article answer, because you know, because if it's not law enforcement, That means that anybody should be able to get away with this and so it's very interesting. How

it's like a social ferryman- that people always say the police who are doing it. The council most logical reason. Hence the killer hasn't been caught. It must be a police officer raise deserting interesting. Of course, that came up among island. right. Maybe a decidedly suffers. Someone in money someone? in some kind of control roar. Better able to get away with it. you know it's interesting. You definitely see a lot of color listen, you know mass hysteria, over and over again, I dunno if it was hard for us to really separate you know, what's it what's, this is epic fear, Thank you for talking about these updates with us now. What do you think we can expect with this case, going forward? I think we're gonna be hearing this spring

You are things that are happening? No, yes, the eye is involved in the case, and so we know excited. I'm definitely looking for these things. new gonna happen. I think we're you started hearing a lot more updates over the next two or three weeks, yeah That's fantastic, we're hoping to hear some more as well, and who knows you might find your guys. You might find yourself in a situation where you gotta pick up the cameron get back out on the road and in I do another show. I mean rug if something breaks we're going to pick up a camera and we're going to go yeah. Even if you know the show isn't active right. That second, I mean we did that two weeks, A lot going on my island with a press conference. So Now. I think nine other people didn t documentary theory. The caravan You come in you, you do your punch card and you care about families, but

today, the home I'll? Let you know on the other room for essentially, unfortunately fortunately for us a it's, the twenty four seven yeah yeah. I know how you feel thank you both What if there is any more developments? get together. Let's do this again time for human health. Everybody watch amazon and then on what we can solve this case, yeah undress an ira, dance mc hob on What are you ready? As we have a lot of conversation going on the time with regard to this case, the guy It's just the man and I met at missus rachel. all right. Those handles again webs sleuth is at dance mc cobb at then it's at Josh Zeman.

For twitter and mills rachel at mills rachel for twitter. So they say and for talking to us to the poorest people in the true crime documentary world yeah. That's right! Thank you. Both it's been fun. I thank ye honour their failure. By this week recommended reading is slave slave girls I went cely clarkson, who is also the author of hell, hath, no fury and whatever mother says this is a plunge into a nightmare of unspeakable abuse in depravity this case there's org. All this book actually features. Several different cases must check out slave girls by wednesday clerks, and you can do that by going to true crime garage dot, com click on the record. did page. We got all of our books listed there. Don't forget about loss girls by robert culture, which is one of the best books, is the best book about the go, go case in the long island serial killer so pick up both of those. By going through our amazon banner, but

anyways I'm going to leave you with this clip from this press conference about the accusations that this prostitute is making towards the police chief. I think you'll find it interesting that about sixteen minutes long but check it out. It's there's a mind. Blowing stuff there The no been significant development in the old beach google beach fervour murders case. That development is that an escort this here, of a determined to come forward and the

with the press discuss with the public That is just going former. chief of police have suffered carry james bird, a party Oh beach. in two thousand and eleven that party she had sexual relations with chief for which This is the first time that there has been an actual connection made between format if police work each institution is the first time this has ever occurred. And that's why they did have significant up. Until now, there has been a great deal of surmise about chief were involvement with

a beach. We circumstantial evidence tat. He had some knowledge voltage his assignment. For example, to the first present that area possibly assignment to worry bureau in that area? and his connection with, your peter Hackett, the former police, surgeon of self accounting? who is the head of emergency medical services for several years back in the nineties, we now know A new development- is also occurred today. We now know that james bird, Peter Hackett were in connection with each other working with each other in the late nineteenth nineties, with respect to flight eight hundred in the crash, so they knew each other. They serve How did the connection with one another,

when you take that it provides dollars, were, were giving you today. You see that these are significant and have always down the road, on this case the jimmy bird never mentioned that his involvement without beach in his sentencing to the federal judge, while he was sentenced for the crimes that he has been convicted of and for which he is in prison He never mention that connection now is being to examine. Jimmy burke under oath is part of the case, the right. I brought on behalf of the state against got you happy? He is no longer just. Conjecture is now a potential witness in that light,

real attempt to cross examined or agenda chief broke under oath as soon as the case cases pending court is decided So that's another development, this. What do you the same man who had porno in his car the same year. new soliciting prostitution, the same man. He was responsible for the investigation of the field of each of these murders, is the same as men. This is, no beach and solicited her and had sex with her and pay for it. after investigation had already commenced,

so? That's why we're here today more than going to be willing to answer any questions? so you're alleging that his party were without where you were, were other people there yet where other law enforcement, then I imagine so he was there I

I mean I don't know specifically, but I mean I would imagine so, but it was a party there were numerous people yeah there were numerous people there I mean drugs, yes, and- and so this party, where this party has a beach, can you just start out by telling us the story of what happened they came to me? I was invited by a friend lives at stony, brook university. Well, during the time Let us not at the university and rose I raise another bride and others but I was still lacks johnny rubbing his eyes. Univee reinstated september, and I went to this party with a friend's house and traveled back up to new york, because I didn't live here. the time is ripe for better. So I came up with a frightened.

And there were. There were other girls there that I knew that I would rather under the you know, I don't really want to reveal that I was told by someone, because my area of study, in which I have my bachelor's degree from stony, broke and is, in you know, crime forensics things like that. And so I was introduced well, not introduced, but yeah. It was pointed out to him. He was pointed out to me as a high ranking official, only really gave me his title. Anything like that. So I continued to party- and I remember that outfit that I wore was not really consistent with what you'd see him as an escort wearing an abercrombie and fitch cut off shorts, and you know just some stupid shirt and you know converses, so I didn't really come across as anyone who is

also you can sell as it were, but the facts so walking by him in saying hello. That was pretty much expect that action. There is really no really not antwerp, that occurred at that point. I came back again in august for another party. It was. It was at the scene, simplification, and at that point I was just a little bit differently. I remember what I was crying and it was literally morris risque. I have never up until this point. The average accepted money for sex my very first encounter with a It sucks so well what I would like to have a first. I did see gym gym birth

I have a by her hair and traveled to the ground. I don't know how playful it was or how aggressive it was. Really. No. I wasn't right. After that happened. I do remember that she was an asian asian girl So the second party I, when I was little a little more risque, I encountered the potter seizure. I wasn't really much. I was fairly intoxicated myself who's, not uncle I mean I've, never done cocaine. I just you know a whole lot of rooms and I remember hearing that he was high on, but I figured alright it's my opportunity before you know a pdf card from off. If you know a high high ranking official that you know, that was just a joke. It had

so he started to do things like as we were talking. He would rob his hand up my leg going on. You know, I'm a woman. I know when a band wants sex, so you know I kind of took the cue and he he kind of guided me to the bathroom where we started to engage in sexual behavior. He was frustrated because you cannot consummate that he became. begins here, really impressive, and he used the term with horror.

So at that point he began to try to reach. You know it jack relation to oral sex, but it wasn't really oral sex. It was more of him grabbing me by my hair himself inside of me choking. I remember tears not tears from crying but tears from all the rest of it was. I was cheering and he still couldn't reach, reach. A point of ejaculate, so he kind just gave up

through money to me, which was my first encounter with getting paid for for sex with with with with with with him. Now. At that point, I didn't know that he was, you know so high ranking. I actually went back to a british officer friend of mine later on and told him about the encounter, and he said that he referred to him as Jimmy

that was that was jimmy Berg and I said Jimmy burke and he showed me a picture and I said yeah, that's that's him and that saami guy, when he got arrested, I remember seeing him being led out in handcuffs and the people that make sense, because he's a very nice guy and he called in a tip related manner to the goal of each task force. I called up until a couple of months ago I received a call from the detective in charge of the case to one of the two: that's what they told me obviously along. He actually revealed to the person I took time. He reveal that I see I see the person I called

if you're not close to them. You know you were there as a as an escort service, they're, just as important just as a party. We were never affiliated with any specific service where you have to acknowledge it. You know any of the victims of the. I did not know any of the other sports at this party. Yes, I mean now that I'm I've been in the business now for six years and in hindsight I can look back and say that behavior to two women on another person's life being, but you know beating into adjacent bedrooms and in doing certain things for your submission due to the high scores like that as far as women, were there I mean if they walked out with money in their hands. Doesn't that make them does not make it worse aspect? Yes,

our member states, Is he from me like a wider between three to four hundred? I can't really recall it was. It was just what at first it looks like the one hundred and then when you know how, sometimes when you have really crisp bills, you kind of push. the part? That is the situation, and I was a little eyes. Why not for fifty nine, doing much so

I believe after the investigation was already underway. This was the first time I met him and just in passing from April two thousand and eleven in that area April, two thousand and eleven, then I know in august two thousand and eleven is when we had our trust. Can you tell us what the go go tip was that you didn't tell the police that is unrelated to this? The tip of that. was made to the police. By the end was to the old betrays? However, it wasn't it took about Jimmy, but it was a difficult someone else and We do not want to review leprosy. It's not really would not advance the point that we're here for aggressive. Aggressive, arrogant or untouchable?

will. You night now afraid sense not until They reveal the sea Where are you saw it when you went to him, drag a woman down to the ground? And you say you have? No, if that was aggressive or playful. Were you alarmed didn't look to you like something you should be concerned about? She says laughing, which was almost maybe that is consistent with his behavior. She is, you know, encountered him for, and that was something that, was consistent. He kind of just rapture like this and kind of like what, like you know to her down. You know It hurts more if you just drive by one strand, but he kind of like one like this and it kind of dragged you down, and she didn't seem to me to to as well by I would have been,

seem to be more. I guess you still be here as you: that night, the not going to speak but I have to say that I will take your problem how are you the house is, she can identify. She believed she can identify the house, which was a large house a year old house, Each was adjacent to the beach,

actual person who all the house. It's not all that clear at this point and what she does, though, she'd run the next week, be good behind and don't let her this one.

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