Fall is just around the corner and the home is the center of it all at Ashley's. Seasonal decorating is a breeze with their range of designs and materials, snuggle up on a family friendly sectional or an ultra modern, sofa or gather outside and enjoy the crisp cool air with a new fire pit for conversation set from minor refreshes to total overhauls actually has the essentials to make your home fall, functional and fabulous shop in store workers and ashley dot com. Today. I

Welcome to your grand garage where you are whatever you're doing, thanks well listening, I'm your hosts naked with me, as always is a man who knows it. Podcasting is a battle that is one in the trenches here. Is the cap podcast we'll make your life go into the trenches, it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listing thanks for Tom afresh,

We are still serbian on some fantastic mid west ip by the great lakes brewing company, one of the oh geez of craft, brewing midwest, ip its hobby very clean tasting with a hint of Cyprus, a b b, seven percent garage great for and a quarter bottle caps out of five so our friends were filled up the old garage for it for us. First up cheers two key from aurora ontario but certainly not least, we have a. We like your jib, going out to Jamie Gordon from fort gregg adams junior everyone we mention. They went to our website, clicked on the pine class and helped us out. Thank you all. Yeah, be w W. Are you in beer run sure you get a true, cried garage, dot, com and sign up on our mailing list and colonel that's enough for the business

all right. Everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk, some true growth when we left off yesterday gave did we were talking about a situation where we have twenty one year old, johnny clark and he staying at his twenty year old, girlfriends, home, LISA straub. The home technically belongs to leases parents who are away on a vacation. So, not only are they staying there, but as everyone states, they are also how sitting, while the strawberry are gone. We left off at the point on our time line where johnny's There have been notified by a woman named tiffany, william Stephanie Williams is twenty four years old and she is in air, quotes friend of Johnny's an leases and she threw another purse

and alerted johnny's parents of a couple of situations that occurred that night, one that she was? phone with johnny clark at about ten forty one that night and that she had heard what sounded to be a disturbance they Johnny sounded like he was interacting with somebody didn't know what was going on and it might be a situation. She is then saying that, after about two hours, she decides to drive out to the strong home and check on her friends johnny lisa and by getting no response at the door and getting no response on their cell phones she now has alerted johnny's family that she's concerned, and she thinks that something is wrong where we left off. Yesterday, Johnny's parents are at the location there on scene, police have been called twice

my day, Johnny's mother called police nine one one twice and they sent out Lucas county sheriff's office on two occasions. Back the back Lucas county observes the situation takes a look at the house. They knock on the door they shine their flashlights, they see no probable cause and they have, no probable cause to enter the home- nobody present after receiving those calls give authority for the authorities to go into the home now? One thing that's very interesting here is that before the police leave the scene, the sheriff's office deputies leave the scene for what is now a second time. One of the officers pools on father John to the side and says look man not being a cop here, father to father. I can't tell you to do anything, but if this were my son- and he was

in it his girlfriend home and I'm arriving to the scene. I would wait. the police to leave and I would burst into the house to see what's going on now. The officer saying this in in the reason why I think that this is important, No here is some people have said. Why don't you say why the police, when just go and they can't just bust into a home without probable, cause? It's called the law now, the other thing to as they cannot just tell Johnny's parents, break a window and go in they. They cannot witness a crime. They cannot encourage a crime to take place, witness a crime and then do nothing about it. So this I say in man- man, father to father, any This is why I believe that this office or says this when they all arrive on the scene. Here's what we got goin on captain the straps, the parents lease

parents who are gone. They they own three vehicles. Ok, two of those vehicles or in the driveway of this home nobody's answering the door johnny's father John is quite this wrong. Guy he's a bit of a body builder, good sized man. So the police or on the scene. He actually physically is able to lift up the garage door just enough that one of the copse gets his down. There looks in an inside the garage, they see the other strop vehicle, along with lisa strabo car inside the garage as well Johnny does not have his own vehicle at this time, so, what's weird The two youngsters johnny and LISA, who are staying there and how sitting all there means of transportation or their present at the home. There's no vehicles missing from the home and then you Compare that with tiffany Williams,

earlier at ten forty one p m, I'm on the johnny, and he saying what are you on bro. Who are you brow as if that there's some kind of commotion at the house, and I am very thankful that this officer encouraged the clerks to do something. big matters into their own hands? So what the clerks do they leave the cops leave when the sheriffs department leaves they follow them out of the neighborhood. and then the police go one way and the clock, so another way they drive around for a bit just long enough to make sure that the sheriffs department is god from the property, and then they come back. The clerks just don't bust in breaker now bust into the house. They have a member of their family. That is there. That is a service member. in our military, serving this great country who says look

Are you there? I need to leave before you bust into the house, because I don't I can't afford to get into trouble. I have ever rank in a job and everything, let's, let's give us reason to under the house, so they're going around in there looking in the windows. They can't see anything because all the blinds or closed now around the backside of the home. those windows captain where'd, you have the the ark at the top. So it's not your standard, rectangle or square window. It is on the bottom, but at the top there's and there's a glass arc, a windowpane, this portion of this window in the back of the home, there's no blinds up. There. Often there is not when you have kind of decorative window, but their blinds on the lower portion of it. So what, cannot see into the home. This is a window that goes to the kitchen, so what

side, because their several of the clark clan there, if you will they decide to boost one of the lighter individuals up. Remember, John clark is quite the strong man he's gonna stop one of the other family members who now can look To the home, through that windowpane, without the blind on top or without any coverings this person, sees to individuals lying on the floor inside with bags on their heads, and they appear to be bound now, Seeing their witnessing that. well now ignite a new fire, and that is a third nine one one call from job,

his mom mighty to emergency services, you need to do my bank mankind away now now follow me. Nothing Grana, we didn t, know people again in the face by talking I wanted them out there get em, don't you I thought you calm down, will get them out. There owing to the kind of ok, do that their unconscious. How can I what's out there Ok, I ordered them out there. I am proud of that

in other words we love belong, can I have? The address will get them out there. The garage seems so ridiculous that these dispatchers are so concerned about some aid staying calm or not raising their voices at at them, but this obviously will give please probable, cause to enter the the property which they are not going to need, because what evans here is. When you hear my. Stay on the phone with the dispatcher, and you hear that she's kind of their tied up their unconscious, Cell phones on their bodies he's only pants on the pants are tied right,

The reason why she's saying it in delivering it that way to the dispatchers, because she's not seen any of this with their own eyes, remit They had a lift a family member herb some other person that was their up into the air, hoist them up to see. Inside of the home, she is were laying what is being told it that seen as being described her indeed she's, immediately describing it to emergency services on the phone right, so that that will explain her kind of odd Livery, because this is news to her as she's telling emergency services meanwhile, whilst on the phone trying to get the police back out there, an ambulance now, John after he what's going on inside the house he's around to the front of the home and with a single kick damn near kicks down the front door of this house. He runs inside to the kitchen area. Now, remember we hear my taste

knit there in the basement. She doesn't know exactly what room that there are looking into they ve, never the the clerks. Johnny's parents have never been inside this home before and so John. The father runs in, he finds to persons bodies lying in the kitchen, and he ripped. The ban ga instinctively and rightfully so rips the bag off of one of the individuals and unfortunately it is his son who was still unconscious unresponsive, and then he ripped the bag off of what would be him is leases head by Gets the same result and he then says that he he went to go outside

That he needed to get out of there he gets out. He goes out side and on his way out poor once he's outside right now, things are very quickly and the parents, or are completely in shock, so their statements a little unclear how these things panda and played out and it's not really employ, in my opinion, but what we do was at some point. He he runs outside and he says He just loses his mind. He doesn't, he doesn't even know what reality is for awhile and he says at some point on his way out of the home or on, outside of the home. He tells his wife what it is that he witnessed. Maybe he said something like Johnny he's gone johnny's dead, to which she then faints right. So that's what takes place shortly and like immediately after this nine one, one call and so on, we have at the scene as we have. We now know.

Johnny. We know it's lisa, it seems like they were bound. And then there are plastic bags were placed over their heads, but do we have anybody seen do we see the type of blood were? What else are we see in at the scene? well, we'll go through, will go through the evidence in through the what they were able to witness at the crime scene, but One thing we need to point out here too, is that if we play the second call, what was that so after my taste call tiffany Williams, whose son the scene. She then calls and makes a very brief cos. two nine one, one and she's stating Much of the same. There was just stated by my mighty clark by social.

as a very brief conversation with the dispatcher and at this point, the the police emergency services are already an rout as pricing that tiffany hasn't left at this point because at some point there is kind of accusations coming her way as far as late. Why did it take so long to react to them not answering their phones and then there at the crimes there at the scene, trying to figure out. What's going on Then you have johnny's mom, saying: hey! Are you in The list to set my son up with something an so everybody can follow along with our time line here. The report- I have captain states that that third, and final nine. When one call for my tat comes in at approximately three fifty m

So obviously, the whole family is in a state of shock its hysteria. Then law enforcement comes back onto the scene and obviously now they're able who enter the property yet, and we reviewed a lotta cases where emergency services have have told us that if, if they can get to a scene. And some one has for lack of better term expired. Fifteen twice thirty minutes prior to their arrival that they ve they ve witnessed in been a part of situation. where they are able to actually save that person's life, bring them back. Including that, because it's important too timeline too narrow down the time of death for are victims here now. What we have here captain is. John gates. As we said, john gains, entry to the home, he discovers Lee

in John that are there both bounded the hands and neck with plastic bags over their heads? He instinctively ripped the bag off of his sons head to expose his face but gets no response. John then moves to lisa and does the same only to get the same sad outcome. She too is not responding deputies, from the Lucas county, sheriff's office respond to the scene. Yet again, time along with firemen shirtless shortly behind them? Who will perform life? Saving efforts, but tragically this is to no avail. The two youngsters have been out for far too long and they are officially gone at the point and our timeline sources report that when the bodies were discovered, the johnny's head was facing west with his hands and feet bound with black doktor,

and the same black duct tape was used to seal the bag. At his neck, LISA was found facing east her hands were bound behind her back with duct tape. With this same, similar bag as what was found on johnny and the same duct tape tightly wrapped around her neck as well. Now one difference when the two victims here is her, legs were not bound, so we who here in the nine one one call from my tea saying he's only wearing pants and the pay are tied. What she's trying to say is that his leg, are bowed like they used a tape to bind up his him at the ankles right and He's wearing sweat pants, so this black duct tape would have been obvious to them even from outside. Looking from perched above that that arc pain window,

Doping and LISA is not bound at the legs now she did so hey the you know, he's only wearing pants. Well, they haven't obstructed view and the cry. seeing the reason why there is an obstructive view is because are found in the kitchen and from there manage point some it will be in the way will be the kitchen table, as well as some of the table, the table and chairs okay. So what they cannot see is actually both of them are fully closed. Both of the victims are fully clothe, however, that their shirts are bunched up toward the top of their bodies And so it appeared that he has no shirt on from looking outside. Looking him now said: both their shirts appear to have ridden up to expose their stomachs, but invest

It is noted that this did not seem to be in any way or any form of sexual assault or any type of sexual way, but rather because, as it would appear to investigators, both victims were moved after having been bound, so they were dragged and the victim shirts then bunched up to their chests by, as likely salt of someone or very likely, especially in johnny's case. Some ones dragging the victims across the floor to stage them are placed them in the kitchen, and I some ones because look I get it you're in some one in that that takes away some of the wait here, but Johnny's five foot eleven two hundred five pounds so he's not small it probably I would. I would wager franklin captain. It took two to move him, so I think we're looking for at minimum

two perpetrators in this horrific horrific crimes violated. we have evidence of sexual assault, but do we we were told earlier that the house look like it was ransacked to him evidence that the motor, the motive might have been a burglary here your spot on here captain because it still to this day this this horrible crime. place very early, two thousand eleven we're sitting here in the garage two thousand twenty three and its unclear to this day? What exactly the motive was now as we get through this? I think that Our listeners will see and maybe share the same opinion that we have that the there be more than one motive at play here. Now, especially if we are

I consider that we may have more than one perpetrator, so some details from the crime scene. empty wallet, is placed on johnny's bear stomach. This would turn out to be his wallet. Some have suggested that the wallet left in this manner by the killer was as if to send a message. Both victims displayed signs of fatigue. Here their faces. It was very clear to Lucas county sheriffs investigators that a struggle had taken place alice this level of damage inside here, captain level of damage and so straub home per the police reports there was broken dry wall, a clock torn off the wall, a plant knocked over and then there were many. Many to say many items were scattered about is to put it very conservatively

also became increasingly clear to authorities that the garage was the most likely must have and the point of access for the intruder or intruders to get inside of the home and here's why there was damage to the interior service door or as long as I'm listeners of the show. No that I like to call the man door, meaning this is the door that the people walk through, not the door that the cars go through right. So there there are signs of forcible entry into the home they're getting that from the man door from garage to the inside of the whole. There getting that from the garage door. The garage was closed when police first arrived on the scene, the grass was closed when Johnny's families

on the scene. Remember dad had to lift up the garage door, the car door, so that the deputy could look inside and see that there were two more cars inside the garage. So this is indicative that. Whoever decided to bust into the home or intrude into the home. The garage door was either open for them. to receive them or was already open. When they approached the home, they only had a bust into the man door. And they were so kind enough to come. the garage door before leaving the proper.

farming cheers me fears You colonel onward and upward. Thank you captain now. This is very likely protocol for a double homicide in most jurisdictions in the state of ohio. I'm not certain about this jurisdiction, in particular, so this is either protocol or simply the investigators realizing that they need additional expertise for this case and this crime scene that appear to have a lot going on Lucas Ghana, sheriff's office, detectives they rather quickly, contact the ohio bureau of criminal identification and investigation or BC I for short, for their assistance. In this case,

So now we are busy I there to assist in processing this crime, see as observed by the lucas county, sheriff's office, win bc had arrived. We get special aid the supervisor ed beards dad who notice is that the crime scene does not only show signs of force or forcible entry signs of obvious struggle, but now. This officer is saying we need to include that this house appears to have been ransacked and I mean, let's say very ransacked, because I've seen the pictures very ransacked if we were to try to discuss levels of ransacking yeah, we'll try to post as many photos about this case and those people involved, obviously, and in those you can always find those on our social media. So we have to put it

in Sweden, we have cabinet said, have been open, drawers pulled out as if, as if someone, searching for something now in them Your bedroom, the mattress, was pulled completely off of the box, bringing as if to reveal and thing potentially hidden under the mattress and though walking closet. We have clothing that is true, from the hangers and thrown all over the floor, but but question for you, because sometimes when we have a house that quote unquote looks ransacked, is it staged to look that way to to throw law enforcement off of what the possible motive of the crime would be yeah and we have a addresser. That's overturn a panel leading to the attic spaces is open and, as said, there's damage should drywall.

significant damage in areas of the home to the driver- and this is one could be both their sign of struggle. Usually it is but We usually cover cases where there is not this level of ransacking going on inside the whole and so want to point out something here too, that the destroy to some of the dry wall could be happenstance from a struggle. Look Johnny was a tough kid if, with with these intrude, worse he's not going to just allow them to just walk into the home, he's going to put up a fight. So there's our struggle, but on top of that, with all this ransacking keep in mind, Some of this damage to the dry wall, maybe part more part, the ransacking then just that struggle and also makes you wonder because, like you said we have, we have two victims. So do you have

two perpetrators or do we have even more than two. We also find out that leases purse had been emptied and johnny's wall it was empty as well strangely, however, there was jewelry that was in plain sight and some have stated that was overlooked, but I dont think that it was overlooked because it wonders can we get? Is it a jewelry box was opened to expose inshore and for whatever reason they decided not to take any thing that they saw their. We also end up. learning that something that was in the home price or to the homicides and remained there afterward was six envelopes containing foreign currency right. Sir

whoever is responsible. They take leases money, Johnny's money if he had any, but they pass up the joy They pass up other valuables inside the home, tvs, computers, things of that nature and they pass up the foreign currency as well, where they have also talk to leases parents and was only idea of maybe us. Item that these individuals might have known that they had that there were looking for because also like you discount a robbery. If there are things missing but like, for example, you see foreign currency, a criminal might go. What what am I going to do with that? I'm going to have to try to find a way to exchange change that into our currency,

or they see drury. What am I gonna do that right, where's, the value there for me right and in luck. You can sell those items, but now involving another person year, put yourself at a higher risk level of getting caught, getting apprehended and so when I See a scene like this was confusing, though right. It's it's fusing and you are right to point out it was it made to be confusing? Was there staging here. You know it. Not uncommon husband kills four wife kills husband out in their home and they ran the place her or make it look to be ransacked now. What's what's interesting, though, is detectives and cops, pretty good at seeing a scene in knowing when somebody is doing something just do it.

Or when somebody's doing something that they have done before. You know it you can look at a scene at and go you know at this, looks like whoever was air quotes right, and sacking the house didn't really. know what they were doing almost like. They were doing. It purposely to confuse the scene right, That doesn't seem to be the case here. We never and any investigator saying like. We think that this was a staged. Seen this place. Look like you, let loose a pack of wolverines inside the house and they tore it all up yeah, but also because of things that you mentioned, like the mattress being turned over or the. I think you're saying like the attic entrance to me. That goes again, or is there something that these people thought

at this property that they were trying to find and one- and we know this information from leases parents every closet. Had a door that home the door was found open as if somebody went through the home looking every nook and cranny for something? And this is where things start to get really we're, because the first people that you are going to talk to our family and friends of the two victims and one thing that they start to find within some of those circles. Is this thought or some kind of rumor, that there was potential

we are safe in the home containing large amounts of cash right now we have the stripes, who, thankfully, can tell us a couple of things and captain you know it was one of my favorite things to discuss in these cases, because it is often most times the most important detail of these crimes, he's, transference of evidence, the intruder, the killer, the betrayed. Her will almost always leave something at the crime scene, knowingly or unknowingly. That could lead you. back to him or her and almost always, will take something with them. Knowing or unknowingly, were hit. You can link perpetrator to crime So in this situation the straps tells couple things one: we do not only safe to weed

Keep large amounts of cash in our home, in fact they tell the police the only money that would have been in the home. Aside from some change jars, would have been forty dollars or forty five dollars that they left for. johnny and lisa order pizza, one night or two nights: that's the only money. that they said that they had in the home. Now, transfers If evidence goes the other way too. So what we have missing from the sea. We have that forty forty five dollars, if, if johnny and lucid and spend it prior right. We have leases money, ok, keep in mind what is she worked at night? We know she worked as a server at the restroom that night, usually they walk away cash in hand, and so we can assume we can make the logical assumption that ever money. She took home with her from her work. That night was taken

and then we know Johnny's wall it was found empty, so, whatever money he may have had those guys That was gone as well, but there is a possibility if the if law enforcement, saint hey, looks like these guys we're looking for possibly a safe that it's possible that there at the wrong residents. oh certainly possible. I mean that when I hear this thought that there's a safe in the home- and it could be a huge mistake. You know you instantly think of in cold blood, who was that clutter family that killed because these two criminals while they are in prison, they hear this bad rumour that that the family hadda safely. Thousand dollars cash in decades in decades ago, when ten thousand dollars was a whole, a lot of money much more than it is today.

and they going they kill all family that no safe right. We were the cheshire martyrs. Now those too horrible monsters sub humans, they Claim that they believe, because it was a rich, wealthy neighbourhood, that they were they believe, They would find a lot of money inside the home and maybe even a say if in a lot of valuable, they don't find that people live that way. Today, most people walk around with cards right plastic and they are, and I said it- I made my point very clear on the cheshire martyrs when we covered, I believe the common suggests key in those perpetrators. I think it there. That rape and murder was asthma. If not more, of a driving factor to them, then the potential finding large sums

money, bono and also sometimes poor house poor. You know where they, they have a big house in all their finances. Go to pay for the house Then I'll have extras. Unfortunately, I'm garage pour me too low. Grudges allow bigger than mine. we got a couple of other things going on at the scene, though captain that we need to get too. We have two knives are missing from the in the block. That would be in the kitchen right, and we know that duct tape was found on our victims. Lisa parents tell police, we didn't have any black duct tape in our home, and so now we know that the killers did bring something with them right. and beyond the money just the cash. They took something with them as well. Now the bags it a little more difficult think these are pretty common bags and I believe,

that the throb said that they were of the belief that the bags would have been found. either in the garage. Somewhere in their home soon We got to deal with this doctor and that's really interesting here. So what we have? Let's talk about these items. Did not have any duct tape present at the home according to the straps, so it must have been brought with them to the scene. Now some have said that this may imply premeditation. Yes, of course, but premeditation of one murder, robbery, torture, I think it's too early and our investigation to conclude premeditation of what now one of the investigators collects a new ports cigarette but found the hallway by the door to the garage that led the and or leading to the garage, Norway and the families a smoker Nobody in the family is a smoker and then, on top of that yeah accord

two tiffany Williams. They were going to come over and hang out at the house and in no not really already, according to tiffany williams for people just hanging out of the house, there were the straps. Strict rule against that, but they also had a strict rule against smoking, the home. Nobody was permitted to smoke in the home and, as we just covered, there's no smoker that lives there. So this newport cigarette but is going to become just as important as the duct tape there was found on our victims bomb, because I said, there's so much ransacking that you have to now. You're gonna be tested for fingerprints, and you can be testing for dinner. But some evidence that we'll get him go through it. A united for law enforcement, we'll have to go through at the scene, is what happened to these two victims

We know that there were bound and we know that there was bags place on their head. We know they're dead, but how did they die yeah? So the boutique year is going to be one of the tell tale, of what may have happened to them, and I say: may have happened to them, because when once we get the medical examiners report, it's a little inconclusive. So it's both debts rule a homicide, no doubt about that. What becomes a problem and not have major one, but something that is undetermined is that they can could not tell if they I'd from it, expects here from the bag being placed over their heads or from the tightness of the duct tape around their necks. So maybe it may be a combination of both in the put it short in.

In not sweet at all. They died of laughed lack of oxygen, both of them, and one thing that is unique about this case and I think it's usually important, not always, but I think here, given the crime scene and what were seeing at the crime scene, and so things that we ve hinted on already here. Captain is, there was some concern to try to determine who died first And they were not able to conclusively figure, poured out now what the crimes, here's, what the crime scene is telling the experts that some kind struggle with Johnny went down either outside asked inside of or at that man door by this, or restore leading from the garage to the home. So the size of a struggle there and they they believe that struggle took place

between johnny and the intruders? That's intruders gained entry into the hole now, unfortunately now None of these cases are easy to talk about. None of the details are easy to talk about, but what the crime scene indicators are telling the investigators is that when this is happening, in the commotion is heard by LISA. She tries to run and hide so she runs up stairs to the upper level. Her room closes and locks the door behind her, and it's believed that she attempted to hide underneath her bed. The intruders go up the stairs kick in her door and drag her from out underneath of that bed. Unfortunately, a couple of things could have happened differently that that may have saved at least

LISA had she fled out a another exterior door rather than flee to her her room, yeah there was a fire escape upstairs that she could have potentially gone out of and her cell phone unfortunately was found, was below to be in another part of the home, so she fleas up to our room with no, of calling anybody for help while she's in there now look, we his case I don't mean to scare anybody, but we do get these false sense of security. Right like we close our bedroom doors at night, because we're told his children, then if there were to be a fire that you can, you can check that touch the door dob and see if it's hot it will prevent smoke from coming large the smoke from coming into your room? Lock, the lock the doors You have one more barrier between you, anna and an end.

Router into your home, those doors, those bad our bedroom doors there not strong their rarely are. They even solid doors, they're, usually hollow doors, speak for yourself, minor, solid doors in most cases, captain are hollow doors that are easily easy to kick nothing, cardboard, exactly warp, I've, I've seen I've seen people punch right through them for forget about kick. through one or using your body to throw into the door. She did she He went into flight mode twenty years old man she's a little kid she's a kid she she did. What a kid would do you see you soon something that you don't understand. That scares the hell out of you and she did. She attacked, did the run and hide from it? Yes, there's if I'm law enforcement, the the call that the french hears

johnny, say bro. What are you doing to me that points to one individual, but we booth again, we don't know did. He see one individual and then the next individual made themselves known after that, after the disconnection of that call, but because there's two victims and like you said I mean Johnny's, not small guy, you have to move individual, the amount of ransacking in the house this again it points to at least two hmm. You know I, I don't think of your law enforcement. You can rule out the possibility that there's even more than that, because you have to then bound the the the

the visuals, and that would be very difficult and we don't have any evidence if the intruder had a gun or not so again. Sometimes you can control multiple victims by yourself if you use a gun or use a weapon or there's some other threats, but in this case it seems like its brute force. Well, it was used to control these in your exact, your exactly right that you don't have any proof that did the intruder. Intruders did not have a firearm, but what you do have is you have proof

You have things suggestive at the crime scene that they did not write, that they did not use a firearm to kill the victims. There's no bullets that are found. There's no bullet holes that are found. There's no loud gunshots that are heard by anybody in the neighborhood. And then you have these clear and obvious signs of a struggle wanted. man door, which is Johnny fightin off whoever's coming in and also somebody busting through lisa bedroom door and dragging her down the stairs, and so, though, Those struggles are indicative, the one you're, not aid, to control them with the firearm. You have to use, as you said, brute force and then on top of it The premeditation right, we don't know what it is pre meditative of but binding that that knowledge of going of knowing advanced you not. We shall probably bring some duct tape with us

That is, we're probably going to have to bind one or two of these individuals at some point. But I bet- and I would bet money that they are if they brought the duct tape, that they brought the bags with them as well. One thing that that I think that's fair, too they that but keep in mind. We have the straube saying they believe the the bags came from somewhere in the home and They were no better than us, but here's the thing captain one thing that that is going on immediately early on in this investigation and one thing that police will continue to struggle with throughout the course of this investigation is thee. tiffany Williams, telling them that johnny same bro. What do you do? brow, who the hell are you and they are trying to decipher what they are here second hand through tiffany williams does anything that the johnny. Saying in that moment. Does that tell them the heat

that he knows who this person is or knows the people or one of the people that are attempting to invade the home, or does he not know them and chief Williams and law enforcement will have cheap jeanne up in differing opinions at times in this investigation about that matter, but the other thing. We also need to consider again, unfortunately, Johnny's not here, to tell us his side of that conversation of that short phone call that took place at ten forty one p m that night, we only tiffany williams to tell us what she says. The johnny said on the phone, so much more to get too. In this case. We have to join us back here in the branch next week, but until then,

Colonel do we heavy recommended reading for the beautiful listeners this week, captain no surprise here we are recommending. Where do we go from here chaos or community by the great doktor martin luther king Jr in nineteen sixty seven doktor martin. Their king Jr isolated himself from the demands of the civil rights movement. He rented a house in jamaica would know telephone and labored over his final manuscript here he lays out his thoughts plans and dry, these for america's future, with a universal message of hope that continues to resonate king mandate in and to global suffering, powerfully asserting that human kind for the first time has the resources and technology to eradicate poverty. Check out this week's recommended reading. Where do we go from here chaos or community by doktor martin luther king Jr? He can find that title and many great other reckon

nations on our recommended page at true crime. Garage dot com net, so next week be good, be kind and dauntless The.