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that one out? First, because we went through the time line of the disappearance, we went through some of the characters just to bring up to speed to where we are now here today. We are here to discuss the different possibilities of what happened to mar. Where is she in the outcome of that disappearance, Last week the captain brought up five possibilities and I think each one of em hold merit and we dive into each of those five but was as an this case is that she left she left her school on Monday bandinage, he went missing that monday, but Why would she leaving we gotta answer that? Why did she leave and then what she got in the rack. What happened during the two questions in this yeah and she left the room. campus depending on who you are and two depending on what source you find they were

so you that she left the campus between four p m and five p m. That day, well, we know it seven, twenty seven p m that day she made it all the way to Heru new Hampshire. She was involved, some kind of accident or her vehicle was found on the side of the road. She or a girl. We gotta assume that it was her eye. I've got a little psychological absolute would talk to somebody in he identified. It has been marcel, so just assume it was her as a young female by was her car. It was hurt. It was technically registered to her father but police in the police report. What state that there were indications and proof that morrow murray was the driver of the vehicle. Now, let's talk about how they found this view, right. We did in the last episode, but we got a touch on it here. They found the vehicle abandoned and locked,

and there was damaged the front of the vehicle and the airbags had been deployed. Now. What did she say to butch atwood when he stopped to talk to her he found a young female sitting alone in the vehicle. He says this appeared to be called now. She is outside the vehicle and frightened and she did not want to go with him. He offered to take her back to his home because you know to gain from the elements in all fairness to her me book was a. He was. A heavier set. Dine in books would even say that I'm not like the most friendly, lookin guy. Well not only that she's out the middle of nowhere, but actually there are no this area. She doesn't know this guy and its. arc needs there. It snowing it's cold, and I could see not wanting to get in bushes, van or bus and ride with him and but furthermore, he's hey, I'm gonna call police, I'm gonna call m s, get somebody out here to help you

and she says, don't call the police that, what it says in the police report that she says: don't call the police tendencies witness. So not all. I witness testimony as a hundred percent accurate butch. I would also say that morrow had said that she already trip away, and now a lot of people say will that is impossible because there's no cell phone reception up there to day, let alone back in two thousand for right. But this is somebody that has been caught stealing multiple times, so It's not that far belief to go. Ok, this person steals ball. Maybe this person lies also well now, she kind of had a natural go to okay, so if, vehicle was wrecked. Earth vehicle was parked in she's up by somebody who says that they want to alert the authorities she hasn't sure go to why, because just days before that she was involved in a vehicle vehicular accident,

driving her fathers car late at night trunk and she had called triple a after that. So maybe it just becomes a natural thing to just oh shoot. This person stumbled upon me. I don't want to talk to anybody, don't worry me, sir. I've already called aaa it's kind of a goat our eye? So us start with the first question on our first question being, why did she leave you? Mass So, there's a few different options here right she. You know. We know that she left. we know that she will a letter to ah professors, possibly should work to places possibly one of the places, and she also left a note. At the other place, there is speculation about who she informed about her, leaving about her absence and so about how long she would be gone yeah unless so well, we can agree upon now is

it she did in form some people that she would be leaving in that she would be gone for some time, but I I want agree with you on anything just because, like you today, I don't work and really hard on the shell, and here this drinking beer no, what's difficult about this case is there's all these little tiny facts. Those facts mean anything. That's the big question I mean like she was. She was caught with crime, fraud doesn't mean anything she did. she inform her work, does that mean anything you I mean that's what gets me about this case. Yet those are the questions but and I think we can agree that she did in form some of her superiors, whether be teachers, professors or

but you see in bosnia at that she would be leaving and she would be gone for a period of time now that could be a couple. It could be a week to week. So correct Now. Why would she leave? Ok, Why would she want to their some options here? she wants to leave with the idea committing suicide. Did she leave with the thought just getting out of dodge and starting over somewhere fresh new starting a new life or was her intention, to just leave for a few days then return like she told the severe violation just needed a break from everything and that happens all you know that happens a lot more than you think when people are in college going through some difficult time. but normally Going away for a couple days going away for a week is not by themselves

and nor my nato with a group of people was the time. Is this for them to go home? You know in the kind of recollect their thoughts get their mental states in order and go back to school So there are some there some reasons for leaving. Ok, let's go through those right away, so we have the credit card fraud. can november of two thousand and three some people pointed out that that might be a reason for leaving. I I tend to disagree that happen for months before. If I've dealt with it for four months, it doesn't seem huh, to me to deal with it for another formats. Okay, so end, but the reason why they say that is because credit card fraud and then she's put on probation. So the fact that she got in our rack on this, or day before the monday. She went missing a lot of people think that would have been enough for her to all. You broke your probation, so therefore she would have been possibly kicked out of school yet so so that

big deal having the accident on Saturday and then leaving friday afternoon evening. Now we also have to mention February fifth. This was the thursday. There is a hidden run, yes, which actually took place on february sixth, but it was the the hours of the morning when that is the hit and run where patrice treat was found. Unconscious on the side of the road. Now there's there has been quite a bit of people that been involved in this case, some arm chair, detectives that sea I believe that it would be unlikely that she had been involved in that hit and run yen, and I think that credible people in there. I think they're also pretty logical people that are coming up with this theory. So you know when I first heard about this case and start diving into these little details When I heard about the hidden run, I thought all was that the hidden run happens. They much early morning. Friday school was closed.

on that friday because of snow day, and so that the four time that there would be a report of this would be Monday morning. So more work wakes up and cheap checks and finds out that this was reported and it freaks her out. As though she had the credit card fraud she's on probation. She got on the wreck on saturday, but then she got in a wreck on the thursday and now here's Here's why I I I I agree with the idea I I agree. the idea that she, wasn't involved. But what is weird to me is that fred, shows up on saturday and they start looking for a car now that could this be a coincidence, because our car was ninety six twas almost ten years old, and I was saturn you know you'll gala swag when you're driving, saturn yeah, but it's a good college car.

You know for the time. I guess you know you well, you have to have something economical, I guess, but you own too. So that's why you're That's why you're arguing made should be pointed out that the victim in the hidden run he was not in a vehicle. He was walking across the street. He was struck by a vehicle at some point and to treat bassi. Who is the victim in that in that hit run? He does not oh who hit him. He doesn't have to die Therefore, while for but he didn't die, he pulled through and it was pretty traumatic from from what I've heard evelyn. Definitely but the general consensus is that she probably was not involved in that hit and run Y while she was at work during the time now, the the hit and run didn't take place too terribly far from where she was what state yeah there's that speculation that maybe she does not call for a lower but because she leave. Work like that. But she left him. One a am which was after vassiki was hit and found

but the idea is that she left work like on launch like I'm gonna go get something to eat. She hit. Em comes back to work she's distraught about it. That's why she left gems, andrea, if she had issue so distraught that her supervisor had a walk, her back. So well. Let's talk about What we do know that led up to the point of her. supervisor walking her back to her door now she's, darts. Her work day at seven p m that night on friday on thursday. I'm sorry which her works shift would end on friday. Now during the core. of the first few hours of work she's on the phone quite a bit now we said last week that she's on the about an hour during the first, and a half hours of her shift. These are different. Calls These are calls with her boyfriend billy. This is calls with her sister Anne some point she's upset around one o clock or just before, one o clock and she has to be

relieved of our duties and escorted back to her door. Well, here's was weird it too. You get. The straw ran in its struggle, your boyfriend and then you leave to cool off, or maybe you leave cause? You need to make a phone call to him again, and then you hit this, guy, and then you come back in your more distraught and here's. What I thought was funny while you're so distraught, we're gonna walk you back. Maybe that was a ploy like. Maybe there was damaged her car. I donno distraught out there well. I can see reasons why people would believe that she was involved in the hit and run because we have two other accidents that take place within four days of that the tree vassals hit wrought now. So what does that tell me? We either have very bad driver or a very distracted driver, yeah yeah, I think more distracted, think there's a lot of stuff gone on air head now,

let's say she was in the hidden run. Shoes involved thou be a reason to go away for a while, so that answers that question but less also, this assume that she wasn't involved in the hidden run. Then that's the reason for leaving so why? Why else would she leave europe We now, though, I'm pointing out here that there was plenty of time to leave if you hit vassiki with your car right down to the left that friday right if you went into a meet an immediate panic fighter flight mode, you know do I stay here and deal with this or or or just get the hell out of dodge there. You could a left that morning, left when classes were closed. You on Saturday. You could have left on Sunday night. You waited in. You left a monday, so a lot took place during that time period, yeah, we're kind of leaning towards that she wasn't involved. Yes, but what does that point out? Like you said there could be other reasons

leave it well. What do we see here leading up to that? We see a lot of phone calls with the boyfriend, which might be a common occurrence. You know it's unhealthy, either way, it's a lie: long distance relationship? How are you gonna maintain the writ relationship via phone email? You know it already pictures that's you know so. They're they're, probably gonna, have a lot of communication that doesn't strike me as increase we abnormal. What does strike me as abnormal is some of these phone calls at work. Now that could be normal behaviour for more. We don't know, but I do believe They depend on the job, though, to an end because I think were used depends on my mark and look, there's some people I believe your hard worker, I believe, on the hard worker, but depending on the job I big things, a little more serious or less serious. So I think that more based on the job than the character of the person well, but what I am

trying to point out here. Is we have an hour or just over an hour worth a phone call time you know me time, I'm on my phone right, but that's where I'm saying that no man or what I know that your long distance, I know that you have to keep in contact, you can do, at through emails. You can do that now for the young listeners. This is this is back in the day we got home phones, I also have some cell phones herself on it. paid by her boyfriend billy at the time, but you know she could call me for class in the break of class before work. I just think this a sign of a very unhealthy relationship exactly and that's what I'm trying to get a sums on the phone for an hour or just over an hour in only at work for five hours, and then she has to be escorted home. I mean that's a pretty dramatic thing: I've never

I've had to leave work before because I've, you know, fallen ill or there has been a family emergency or something's, come up, but I've never to have somebody walk me home or drive me home, humble, but but no, no, but I'm just saying that I think something happened there and who did she talk? Do she talked her boyfriend and she talked to her sister, you something what's going on either with her family or with her boyfriend. If she was now involved in that hit run and that's what we're saying written in something's, going on with the boy friend or the sister or her family. That requires to leave you with doesn't require her to leave. But I think, like I said it, healthy relationship, she was a low, unhealthy, mentally herself, and so, She got so distraught by some argument with her boyfriend that she said I gotta go, and we have some evidence of that. We have some thence of that of which he left and our dorm room a lot of her boxes.

Packed and there's a lot of speculation on the boxes, be impact and all that stuff, there is a letter that email that she had printed out and the email was basically at that believers, email from from billy talkin about em, cheating on mars or maybe college rising for something or trying to stay in the relationship who knows, but what we do know is, according to the police, report because there's been a this is an area of speculation. While we can clear up some of that speculation right here in court to the police. Now they ve, given official account of what was found in her door what they would state their little vague here, so we after read into this, but what they would state is that so of her items appeared to have been packed up. The other thing was was there a suicide note, because in the beginning of this case, people thought that Maybe you would find a suicide note in her dorm more, good by letter or something of that and they stay

that there was no note found. No suicide note found their specific about that. So what that could mean is that you are right, that could mean that there was no or a letter and email found, but it was not necessarily recital of no suicidal note crack and let's talk about some of her belongings or some items of her dorm appear to have been pact, but why You use that word appear ok I'll, because, let's think about that for a second Why would I use? The word appear if on law enforcement? Okay, so there some of the items packed in some of the other items are just where they should be in her dorm right. Well, maybe they appear to be pact, be you only packed up belongings that didn't belong to you. That did that long to somebody else that you're going to return them or leave them for somebody to find right. Yeah Why would you used? The word appear to have been packed up. That's what I find

resting in law enforcement statement appear to have been packed up these there. They didn't seem to think that these were boxes, that she showed up to canvass within just never got around to unpacking. They say that these are items that appear to have been packed up that's kind of weird wording. I I don't know if I college students, don't always unpack everything. You go back and forth to home bunch. So sometimes I lived in a candle by myself for a long time. I had always looked like those moving. You know again, but but they she didn't arrive that weak dynamic. She didn't arrive, even just you know, weeks or months a month before, What I'm saying is that had the heavy seen items and boxes like in your condo, they would have, they would have use different

wording. In my opinion, I think they would have set, and I can't guarantee this. This is just my speculation, but I think that in your case they would probably say, whilst of his items, were boxed up, something you know some things that he had were packed or remove and unpacked. I think they would have used somewhat different wording, I'm probably reading too much into it, but yeah, because it all depends on the officer and and how diligent they were about. You know I disbelieve, it's about how diligent there were. But the key thing to note there, too, is that some of our items, some of her belongings, were just where they should be, nor where you would expect to find them. Some things were in boxes and there were no suicide note left in her door. Ok, so, but basically we were given that as we don't believe that she's a modern in the hidden round, but we do believe there turmoil with her boyfriend, so that would be a cause for leaving,

getting away and cleared in your head. It's also cause too. Maybe you want to run away in to harm to yourself young. I agree with you there, but I also think that we got a point out that there could be termed terms with the boy friend where there could be something going on with her family, because what is the interact? in that we see at of maura leading up to her disappearance. A lot of interaction with Billy and it's a lot of interaction with her father or horses, yeah. But you know, maybe some of that is like leaning on them and that's the frustrating stuff about this cause. It's late I wanted. Nor may call my parents for relationship of you know. I've had have several times in my life, but that's not really go to. I dont know if that would be a go too far, but either way for some time oil monday.

Forget about that weird party. What if that party could have had something to do with why I left college workers order and go through the timeline a little bit further listeners that haven't heard go back with him so that the hidden run happens on thursday morning. we urge all right a morning break that should not involve, but there than there's a party friday. Well, there's a pot on Saturday. This the party that takes place her father comes up. They go cars helping by another happens front rank after after going car shopping with her father she go to a party now this is a bit of a weird area, because some of the other members of the party, the hostess of the party, she doesn't she and tell us how much about the pardon us in on the host the hostess. I said: yeah betsy, she wasn't really the host was he. It was her door. It was her down. Yes, the party was at Sarah alfie aries dorm, and mara Murray went there with her friend kate marketplace, so

was there's so many details about this. Damn case that always makes my head spend some time now. We do have to point out, though, that both Kate and Sarah have spoken to police and they've, probably told them They may or may not have told them what exactly what has happened, but they ve I'm guessing that hold the police a lot more than what they ve told anybody else, because they have not anybody else anything other than fred Murray. Fred Murray's has conversations with these girls and his probably said on some information that he's got risk from that yeah now people find it odd that the distant remember a lot about the party, but I You live on a high state campus. I use and parties all time if you would ask me who showed up well there's about sixty people that showed up were they or I could name like five? That's that's her I could name I may

a parties that would have a hundred some people may well in the reason for the speculation, the hop you there. There were a few guys who claimed to have been there that evening, but there is there's normally guys at parties it, but but the other thing How is this normal, more guys than girls viable? a lot of other people have thought, is may be the reason why this so called pop is so forgotten about was because it wasn't a party at all that it was just a couple. Girls getting together, maybe have couple drinks talkin hang out. It may have just been a hang out, and we ve all seen this on plenty, a college campuses. You might have a hang out three four or five times a week in it's not so special when you have him all the time. You know and you're not gonna. Remember every incident yet because, like thursday through sunday. Basically, if you live around the campus, are you have apartment then or order dorm you just kind hang out and some people drop by so yeah.

Now I don't, I don't put a lot of weight into the fact that they don't remember everything, and I know some people do, and I d go look until a lot of parties then remember much while the other, you pointed out, would be what happened just after the party, its win more rex freds vehicle she borrows her fathers car for the evening wrecks the vehicle does about eight. Ran worth of damage to his new car and then she returns to his mouth, he staying at a hotel, he goes and she tells him about the accident. There's a phone call to billy from freds phone. Now, here's the thing I understand what you're saying about her, possibly being on probation, for you know that regret that and now there has been an accident on campus, and I'd be concerned about that. I see. That being the reason for leaving and I'll, tell you why, because hullo think she heard the most by reckon that car? Probably your father:

sounds to me like they had a damn good relationship, and I think that that something that could be worked out between the two of us now your work bout being on probation from from college he's been down this route before and why I shall do she gracefully, bowed out. She had time to figure this now, she would have had time to either present her case and stay at you, mass ores, would have stayed there and gracefully bowed out. In my opinion, I dont think that this would cause or two for the hills just within forty hours later again so soon go through all this real quick? So we don't think tat. She was involved in the hidden run. An we dont think that the right, consolidate is the cause for her leaving on monday, and I the party had anything to do with her laughing at the adjectives. This can we don't know much about it, and I know that runner

a big deal with like cake, kids, her accounts, I think cape said something about. walk in a guy out of the car, and then she kissed the guy. But can you may remember his name and a lot of people go? Well. That's bullshit we all have been there. We ve all got a little tipsy. We ve all made out with some way that we couldn't remember their name. if you haven't a fair trial, hey undersea. I live once ok, so don't think it has anything to do with the hidden the run, and we don't think has anything to do with the party or the accident on Saturday. Well, one thing that car is made a question. Although things again is the state of her dorm room bright, so we get a note say we get an email, some kind of communication saying to her her professors, I'm leaving. I death and the family, I'm not gonna be for a while, and then we

some, maybe possibly some packing of items. Other items are left and basically What we are left with is it she packed up her car. She packed up her damage, saturn and chose to drive away on Monday What else am I seeing in this time I'm seeing a bit of a break in the communication with billy, There's a lot back and forth with billy for a while, and then that seems to slow quite a bit and the good Communication back and forth at some point sorts become starts, become short and few and far between an eye there is good reason for that answer do we see on that monday, while she collects alone, but ever belongings she hops into the saturn she drives out EU mass campus sheep. Up two hundred eighty dollars and she's out on the road I mean- So, but what are you saying? She's gone a clear head. What you think

that's where we have some options here, because what did she do before? the thing that to honour navy dollars, Jim ass go no he got on her on her computer. She looked up some condos looked at some places to possibly go to. Call the ski resort called in to get information about renting a condom? She never successfully rent rented condo, though enough room. She didn't Just anything with this one, eight hundred go stow the ski resort, but she d if she was checking in these places this this. This strikes me as a couple different things is this: am I planning for it? rip many months from now ahead of time, and I just happened to go. You know My car and drive away a hundred and thirty five miles to the havre old new Hampshire know that doesn't make sense. No, if you it's february,

the places that you're enquiring about or out in a wilderness, they're out and beautiful landscape seed someplace. You would want to see the snow that you and these places that she had said that similar place. that her and her family had gone to when she was younger. Probably happy tops she's reflecting on happy times, she's a avenant piker too. Yes, and so you, looking into going skiing, I don't know anybody that go skiing for the rest of their life. Yet you typically go skiing for a week, and this is a monday when she leaves she baling on somethin she's, gettin added dodge for a reason. Now is she stopped and off? They have a good time before she disappears into the wild blue yonder. I don't know, but this is parts of. Why would she leave now? We gotta we gotta talk about here. Captain Do you think she was leaving for a little bit or do you think she was leaving for good and for good That means suicide, or does that mean caution in my chips and

Go live elsewhere at why things inertia nonsense to it. So I mean god bless on the nurses out there and but any better that has been through that schooling knows that that is a grueling task going through a nurse in schools varied. Call. I believe that with this stuff with billy with his coming out that he was cheating honor. there's some family issues, but You know it see my shit. You know her head on you know other than the credit card thing. She's working two jobs, in the nursing programme. I think laws if it's a little bit too much and she does want to get in touch again with her spiritual side, you know and dismay- she felt a little loss and with all this stuff with the cheating stuff, she decided- you know I'm just gonna. Go away and clear my head? Can I point out some thoughts

I have about her family, real, quick about things that leading up to her disappearance. So if I take fred her father at his word, which I'm gone to this. This is a guy, that's missing his daughter, okay and he's continued to look for four twelve here's what you d say that you want to come on the shelf. Now I dont want friend to come on the show at all. I am. I have no interest in him being on our show so, but what I do a point out here is what do I science? What do I see? Fred doing what, how do I see fred behaving me certain for not only that but before she goes missing. He comes into town. In cash in hand and he's telling me that I was there to go, look for used cars. with my daughter than she was probably complaining about our vehicle or something had happened, and maybe she needed a lean on dad and dad. whoops and and tries to make things better takes her out to dinner. To get her mind always go back to the car, then, because I've heard a lot of people talk about well

a girl, that's in her. Ah, you know in her tone, and she's in high school or not eyes, cop and college that if she knew she was gonna get a new car that should be talking about it and I just found out to be utter bullshit, because once you get in some use. Car she's is getting another car that was just gonna get her through college. It wasn't like he's getting alexis are getting a whatever you I mean but here's the other thing. What if dad is, is the night and shining armor? What if dad just strolls into town heat? She knows she knows that he's coming and he says you know it babe. I know things are tough for Your cars run in a little rough. Let's go out, get. Some are hard. I dont think we might not I anything today, but and then we'll go out to dinner afterwards pushes have a good time. this might just be dad being a good dahlia data. That may be more didn't. Tell anybody, because, once you don't know about it beforehand, ran to nothing came of it or if she d

tell anybody who did she tell maybe people that party that nobody is willing to admit that they were at or maybe they were also drunk, that they don't recur route recall what took place at night, or maybe there maybe they're known as planned, dungeons and dragons or something and they don't wanna, come clean about and dad even took her friend kate more to dinner with them I don't know who pick up the bill, but regardless on his share dad. This is a father that this appears to me to be involved in his daughters, life and want to do good things for his daughter. Now, here's the other thing about the family that I want to point out. she has a long phone call with her sister when she's at work. That night, when all this stuff is going down. Ok now probably why this has not problems with their family. This might be problems with Billy that same sister now divorced from her husband. Who knows what what relationship they had but made She was caught up sis to get advice

two. How do I handle this or have you gone through the same thing before yet was sometimes people does have a person they vent to their life? You know, and sometimes it's a sibling, and so I can tell you see that you know you know her older sister summer, that she cause invents tune and that's she's doing about Billy inches again some advice. You know in that and maybe at hats I wish the family talk about. More was you know, she talk about. Light is needed to step away from everything for a while, you know so, of course, we don't think it's a hidden run. We don't think it's a party, we don't think it's the family these are not reasons that we think that she wanted to leave. We think that the real didn't have anything to do with school, either but whenever reason, all arrows point she wanted to leave. They all point this wanted to leave. We don't know if that means for a little while or forever, but that what it does

mean, is it she's leaving either because of her or because of her belly so even if it's because of her ability, it put it also dis, been for herself this guy. She did on me. There's lot going on. I just need a step back and I need to find myself. Beat a clearer head. Could just be you know her and billy, but what do people say about the relationship with her and billy. Yes, we are because again, One side of the relationship is there was good a plan I get married. There's a lot of other talk that wasn't that Billy was maybe a little manipulative or maybe even abusive. At times and I dont know if that is just mentally probably are or who knows? Maybe just controlling I mean there's a lot of phone calls back and forth and most friends that are guys would not be making those phone calls all the time because they're guy's dead, be talking on the phone on much, but if you're controlling guy,

then you want to know everything. I don't know how it works completely. But but but let's point out here, you know, abuse controlling or whatever he is in Oklahoma. You know it it might, be easy to get away from him when you're in massachusetts. However, controlling yes, who pay the cell phone bill. Is that because mar couldn't afford it, or is it because I want to control the phone calls or I wanted check the voicemail. Usually when you pay the bill, you have access to all things larkin, yes, I mean it's one. We know that he cheated we we also now that maybe she wasn't super faithful as well as we have them track approach that student track coach That's ok, so he cheated. So that's a reason to get away the other reason, is there is a lot of talk about what searching on the internet? She certain foreplay.

Years ago, two but she's also searching for pregnancy. You know how much you can drink. Why you're pregnant and things like that said, the other speculation was that possibly she pregnancy scare me now so cheating, maybe it's just a break up, maybe as pregnancy scare I don't know, but those are the reasons for billy at that that day it's either just or herself to get away or awe, and and she just beginning away with herself or maybe to get away with a group of people or she were its these reasons cause. So so here it here's. What I'll say. I believe that there are people out there that probably have spoken to mara about why I she left and they don't even know that- that's why she left eye. But that she probably had some discussions with kate or Sarah or her sister

wayne? I dont know that this is something she would went to her father with it, because I she she from everything. I've heard was a good girl that didn't want to burden her father with with different things, and I think that be unbeknownst to them that at some point either her sister Two friends had a conversation with her and maybe what we started a helper, give her some good advice. She seeking help and she cited the leaf and and here between the lines of that those conversations or a conversation is the reason that she laughed should it be? She could be talking to sister right and then our sister says you know Are you just need some time apart from Billy or whatever if you go yeah, you know I just need some space That could have been like to salute indicator now. Her her sister party took, that is

She just need some space from the relationship, but maybe it's just need space from everything. anyways daughter, power, the more likely scenarios swelled. Then he then she drives up a hundred and fifty miles why a hundred and thirty four, two hundred and thirty five miles approximately and vehicles found in havre of new Hampshire. We know along the way she picked up that two hundred and eighty dollars cash. She stopped off at a liquor store to make some purchases. Was some alcohol found in her car, her car found locked in an abandoned and the other thing here. This is to me, you know, there's what we went through so far. A lot of people Consider forks on the road, I think we ve The deuce did enough that we made our way through all those forks. Now we have, we have less forks and we have no fork so far well

dove. For now we have made a straight path from Umass all the way up to havre all new hampshire. Okay. So to me here is the first fork in the road The first fork in the road to me is is something that may have happened before she left or or definitely happened before. The scene of the accident is the rag in the tailpipe. What do we know about this rag in the tailpipe? There are so many different stories and I don't think I'll. Even that matters too much with car. a lot of people. Think it's you put the right. In the tail pipe and then you could say in your car and you'd die right yeah. I guess that's Some people would think that I don't see how that would happen. I don't see how that makes any sense that doesn't make any That's me. What I'm talking about, though, is there's been speculation that Fred new in advance that there was a rag in detail by

there's been speculation that he didn't know anything about. Now. I've been told and have heard Then, when he found the car that he pulled the out the tail pipe in the car started right up, so maybe he knew it was in there. But here what oh here's, what I'm getting at is. We know that she stopped for gas because her vehicle, almost full when it was found on the side of the road, so she had to stop das, somewhere along the way, improbable within the last thirty to forty miles now, if I a young woman, I'm out somewhere and I'm guessing up my car. And somebody sees me that wants me to fall victim to them. Well, Maybe when I go into pay cash to pre pay for my my gas, because we know she bade cash right I mean we're, assuming you have those who will have even debited our records right, there's no credit card debit card records of her by purchasing gas, or we would know where she purchase the gas from right. So what

mr handy dandy and I figure out you know I'm gonna go. If something in their tailpipe, remember what that was or what was that beverly hills cop he stuffs the the banana in the tailpipe in the car won't start yeah, but the car would start, but she drew siege I drove away from a gas station right, but maybe my thought is that the carbon art and drive away from the gas station. At some point I will follow you and your car will stop running install out as it not exhausting properly right I just wonder how long it would take a mean. She was no problem here. A couple takes off a fool, so it took while That was the case, but we do know. Is somebody didn't stuff it in there in full? her trail, her bompard, a bumper and wait for the car to die and then abductor? Why do we know that? Because butch atwood saw her at the scene of the crime and he saw nobody out certain scene of the accident? I'm sorry,

and he saw nobody else right now. What did he see? This is what boggles me too He saw a woman that was was frightened. He thought frightened. Who knows? Maybe she wasn't frightened he says that she appeared to be cold or shiver now she shivering how long until your car is dead. Do you have to sit there before you have your cold enough to the point where your shiver, and we have also heard that the car was operable if you're. If shivering. Why was the car not on? Why you turn on the vehicle Maybe she had her head. Maybe she was. Maybe she was messed up from the accident in couldn't think of such a thing, I'll butch outward. did say that the lights of the vehicle they weren't on when he, when he bought up so so we don't the car was run it, but I'm I'm in the car and I'm shivering. Maybe suggests assumed that wasn't going to start the air bags

it introduces soon. It wasn't my starts a theme and try in twenty seven faith westmere calls in two nine one, one that there's a vehicle in the ditch. Now this is mars vehicle butch atwood below gives it he was at the scene at seven thirty and we go by the captains, logic here you give or take five minutes on either end of that right. So he can he could have actually seen her seven twenty five or he could have seen or at seven thirty five. So, let's go off of the nine one? One call from faith west meant as seven twenty seven when the vehicles there now the first officer to respond. to the site. The scene of the accident is at seven forty six. We have enough nineteen minute window. Something happened a long time, something happened in the course of nineteen minutes then took mara from her vehicle to never be seen again.

And you know that when they did the search for the dogs, the dogs sniffed the middle of the road. So I don't know how far away it was fifty feet a hundred feet. To the middle of the road. And this then they stopped having a cent to follow. Yeah, that's absolutely correct if they followed, they believed that the dogs were you, know, here's the thing these days, are trained, and I actually don't think, people give enough faith in these dogs. I think that they there's a reason why we use them for so long and properly trained dog is, is streamline valuable dammit. I found a lot of people in the woods and stop because of the dogs, yet so these dogs followed her trail, down the road for a little while and then they just stopped them there, right in the middle in the middle of the road and what I think that says is that, should

to get in the passenger in the back of some of his car should have in the back so maize car either side, yet passengers, I've back of the car, doesn't matter which. What side that they lost the trail, because there was no longer any footprints. There is no longer any more murray sent. The vault ran back to the in the tail pipe, as I was you say it, We know that somebody didn't follow her bumper to bumper, because there was butch atwood that had seen her by herself now. Maybe that person lie in wait somewhere and maybe he or she picked her up somewhere along the way but It doesn't make a lot of sense to me cause you have to want to assume that this is going to work, and we don't know for a fact if that works, And then we also have to assume that she's gonna get in the car with you word that or that you can make her get in the car round. Here's the other thing that I want to point out. If you're going to do

the somebody why the book I would see her shivering did she had sat there but she didn't just sit there for thirty seconds. You don't just you, don't just wreck your car and now you're shivering officer. down, if she's outside of the vehicle? Yes, it's very cold. It might not take very long who knows, but is: strange to me that she is shivering when butch atwood, fine, sir. That to me tells me that she is therefore a couple answer so long enough, the guy what had an opportunity if you were gonna follower like tat now and again. That brings me back to the point, this case is so frustrating because does the right in the tail pipe mean anything or is it does something that you should this move pass and not even worry about. Why think? A big part of it case too, is what the police believed they were. Responding to. You know they show up and they believe they're responding to an accident and

I have a witness who tells them that he had spoken to her. And she's alone now see I found I've been investigating. I found the ring in the tail pie by would have been really concerned. I would if I would have called out you know everybody I want to send out the national guard, but having spoke to the witness, who said that she's alone It's my walls down the little bit. That makes me I think I'm seeing here well I'd. This looks like an exit This looks like somebody that lost control was distracted while they were driving and oh there's alcohol in the car and there here's to be open containers of alcohol. So now I think that I probably got a drunk driver and from this this drunk driver does not want to get caught, does not want to go to jail and took off the breakdown, these five possibilities, so the first

one being that she fled from the scene and then she succumb to the the elements this brings us to the to the point game where she has spoken to somebody and now she believes that cops are on the way. So what can we deduce from this moment? So she perfectly fine to stay with the vehicle until she's told the cops are on the way right. So this means that either something happened to her before the cops could arrive in this fifteen nineteen minute time period she decided to leave. Why would decide to leave. Does she is she trying to yeah out her suicide plan? Is she? I too just flee this in an succumb to the elements why I dont know if she would be trying to well, I've got no, but

It's trying to flee the scene and and didn't have provisions and and fell victim to the elements. So let's go down that rabbit hole so fight or flight. She goes home. All cops are coming, I gotta get out, here since it takes off now we do have an eye witness that claims that he saw her eight miles away, but forty minutes later, that is a distance that she could cover as a track star, but I find it unlikely because ok so the idea would be like if, if the reason why she left was to commit suicide them when she got there than that, there was a failed attempt because she got in wreck. But now she s carry this out should takes off running shoes.

I running then she's going to run in the woods and then commit suicide and we haven't found her, but maybe we should start the search. You know past thirteen miles now, that's a crazy! You know giant area to search. The problem is with that theory. Is the dogs? Yes and the problem with both of those series the dogs, the dogs, don't care if its three hundred yards or two or three or four miles they're gonna keep following that trace. In that sense, as long as they can write and at some point the scent just disappears bright, and is it possible that and here's the problem with that theory to me if she just took off running commit suicide, or should it took a running to get away and then she died? Does the cold or whatever. Why would she start running in the middle of the road you dont like them? The trail goes, the middle of the road like

I would believe that more of the trail stopped this side of the road and maybe she started running and the grass or whatever, but the tray. stop in the middle of the road, so I feel like if you have any- signs or anything, pointing you too, I think she left on that monday because she wanted commit suicide. Then I think This goes out the window. When you go, though there is no proof of that. There is no proof that she left the that doesn't there's not much proof that she will even if the dogs could tracker for a mile. That would make more sense to me, but they couldn't tracker that far at all. Well, here Why? I think we believe in the dogs. Ok, there's the police officer, along with a It is from the area, fire and ems. There's multiple people there now a lot of people.

well the cop shoot off fire any m s way too early. Now, I think what they did was I think they assess the situation and they took a good look around to see it, was any evidence to figure out where this person might have gone. Well, there's no track in the snow right. We ve been told that they do. night. They saw no tracks in the snow, they saw no evidence of her fleeing. The woods or off you know, in any direction at all so and then we get the dogs who don't they don't run out into the woods they don't run. Out into into no man's land. They go right down the road and follow this dissent or follows, something that they believe below tomorrow down the road right and then the again the other thing to so, you can cut a roll out that she ran away and committed suicide. In the words you can also kind of rule out she ran away than died to the elderly.

I also think that she was a very tough person. I just don t shoot it. Let it get that far while she We are prepared for the elements. I think we agree on that, but the other thing was there was several comprehensive searches for her and Fred was involved in a lot of searches. he tells us. He believes that she was met with foul play. Or maybe she's living somewhere far away, but he he has been wit. is in privy to information that took place during those searches. They used a helicopter, they use dogs, they use officers, they used volunteers, they I urge the area they didn't find anything. Now, I'm with you captain they probably didn't search eight ten miles away, but they searched the general area but yeah, but the again with the dog sniffing evidence. It's me no less likely theirs.

No backpack found- and there has been no sign of mar found so silly kind of start does leading to this idea that if she is at her car but comes up, he denies help from him. and her saint goes missing in the middle of the road which would lead to the idea that she either got picked up by some, as she knew. She got in a car willingly or she was forced into a car, get and less talk about those three different options. Okay, so, first of all, let's say: let's go to she got into the car willingly Alright. Now what behavior have we seen out of morrow before just minutes before she would not get into the vehicle with butch atwood? So that tells me now bush says I'm not the most friendly. Looking guy yeah he's a heavier set guy

ok. Well, maybe maybe she selective about who she gets in the car with I don't know, but what that, if I have to go by her previous behavior, what that tells me is that she would, but she would not get into a are with somebody other than somebody she knew or some She trusted it or somebody Forster or but yet well. Somebody could make her get into a vehicle right, yeah, sorry, but as possible, you don't. This is possible that but you know she went again in a car with a guy, but there was a girl or there was a couple and all while trust a couple more than on trust. Single guy. We have seen that in previous cases we ve even seen where at times where people will use children to lower people onto a vehicle. But again we are stuck on the middle of the room,

she either got into a car with somebody she knew and or trusted, or she was forced into a vehicle. Now, let's talk about who, why would she know somebody? She doesn't know anybody. A hundred and thirty five miles from you mass up in the middle of have you know it new hampshire. She doesn't know anybody up there well yeah, but out those five points and she's forced them. Or garden with wrong person. Then we'll pray we'll, never know what happened to her, because there's no eye witness of that, and unless someone finds her remains in some ways, property or something we're never gonna. Now that scenario or if somebody did holder hostage long time, though I would know that is free You see I'm saying like if that's the case, but then,

How random is that that summit? This happens upon this person. You know, that's me that the seemed so it's hard To think that somebody would just see somebody out there, you know and stop and help them, but not help them. I disagree. Anna I tell you why, and I know that it does seem. It is random. definitely is random. However, I don't think it's entirely that random a lot of a abductions that we have discussed on our show and that we read about our crimes opportunity there, unfortunately, there are people that travel around but things in their vehicle, or they just look for the option why not always be looking for the opportunity but occasion. They are and sometimes the opportunity presents itself and they take advantage. So it's not you know, I've heard

astronomical numbers. Huge numbers is so incredibly random. I don't think it's that incredibly random. I think she's fine. though I think of some- may try to force and enter her into a car that she would have I fought a little more and I think maybe people would have seen that and you'd look. These people were calling the cops and stuff, and I know we said anywhere from a five minute window to like a fifteen minute window, but how many times were those eye witnesses looking out and they didn't? They didn't see anything and I just feel like here's, my is if it was summer that she didn't know there would be more conversation right. You know, or if there was a tussle or they try to force her into the car. I think there were just There would have been more opportunity for somebody to see that there would be less opportune.

They see that if she was if she's driving somewhere tandem right well, let's just real quick there was at least one homeowner in the area of the accident. That said that they could see vehicles passing by the scene of the accident, but they couldn't make out. descriptions of the vehicles or license plates, because it was so dark right. So there was other traffic on that road. That night, which would point to what we're talking about either an abduction or getting into a vehicle of somebody. You knew where I trusted again her previous behaviour. She wouldn't get into bushes car. So what I'm getting at here is if we, if we react to seeing her reaction to butch. It means, me that she wouldn't just get into anybody's car at that point when she was

stan, or this was somebody she knew now. There are what are the theories out about those two items? So we have was she travelling with other people? Were these people that the chief new that she had left the u mass camp as with or people that she knew outside of you mass and going to meet her somewhere or had travelled met up with her some at some point and were travelling in tandem. There has been talk. About. Maybe there was a vehicle in front of her because that's somebody would have to think about it. was traveling in tandem with somebody. She would have already have left the scene of the accident or butch even showed up had the vehicle been following her cry, you would just pick her up gather your things. unless you fell way behind you just she would gather some of her things up in your car drive off off,

it's a possibility. Unless you see her go off the road and you like a shit and indeed just drive. Past and now you have to go to the next stop and here's, the argument, a lot of people think if, if their, if somebody was in front of her or behind her that there's seven! I mean if you, if you follow all eyewitness accounts, it's not a five minute window or fifteen window it's about seven minute window. So if you drove up to the next, but where you could turn around and come back, that's by seven minute trip, so the thought is that she gets in this wreck. She gets out the person Following her tandem, it has to go to the next point to turn around and butch atwood talk story like now, don't worry about it, you know, don't call the cops and The person turn around and picked her up and then took took her now.

If you believe that then why why she leaving ok! So some of the items in her dorm appear to have been packed up right. That was from the police report. Some items appear to have been packed up. well, where those items not hers too, belong to somebody else or where these items that you intended to leave for a specific person. Was there a suicide note? Now? We know there was no suicide side, no according to police, but there could have been a different note. There could have been an email. There could have been a print off of something that they could have been left with these belongings. Now, why would you do that you're trying to prove a point to someone you trying to prove a point. You ve left these items for somebody to find later I would somebody find these items well. They would either either I've gone missing and I've disappear. In the wild blue yonder and these items get

then it to you at some point or maybe I I knew that you. plan to come and visit me, and you would find these items nabonidus distraught and destroyed by by finding this. Maybe that's my final get back at you, but so now Are you driving in tandem, disagree away with your buddies, for a couple days or weak or you are you try and disappear forever? I think in that situation, you're, either suicidal or your disappearing forever, because because packing something up for somebody else defined or for something to be delivered to. Somebody else tells me you're never come back. I understand about we. We know that at the rack that you know it's not that likely that she ran off into like we said that likely she ran off into the woods to commitment, commit suicide,

and why would her friends driver to a place that commit suicide and never talk to the family about it right. so make of sense right, so I think what what we can say is that if she was riding in tandem with somebody that she has decided to disappear forever because had sheikh succumb to the the elements, or when often committed suicide somewhere in the woods, and She was riding in tandem with somebody, those people what came out at some point said, no, I know she's in the hills you got to keep searching. I know she's in the hills we we we, we went off on this trip together. It was just going to be for a week or We were gonna, help her get away and she disappeared. You gotta go finer. Ruminant and those people have not come forward That leaves us with two with only the two options she would in tandem with somebody got into a car

she trusted in new and she they drove her after where she's spending her time now or she got into a car. Unwillingly and was abducted and either captive or or unfortunately not with us anymore. Right now, my problem with her running away and start a new life is there you know, maybe there's some evidence to point to that. I mean look of your this weird relationship. We have a lot going on for you and nursing school and I know a lot of people don't make it through nursing skull but she's pretty far along so What would be a reason you know to to get together get away from, a not stable relationship. I mean you really kind of away from him. Anyways,

you know said than there is that speculation that she was googling a lot about possibly being pregnant, you know, but how much I'll call key drink, Why you're pregnant and stuff like that was searched on her computer. So I guess the theory would be that she was pregnant and then she's trying to get away from Billy. She just needed a life change. Maybe she neither the life change? Okay, so here peers what we ve. Here we talk about her back you're, not getting into butch caught bushes car. talk about her other previous behaviour that we ve seen before. Ok, now, I'm not saying that the Murray family is not a great family and that there is not great people in that family. I'm sure that there are what I'm saying is. It doesn't seem to me they might have been close and emotions and relationship, but they're not close in proximity. Right I mean these are

mara has lived at two different colleges by herself for a few years. Now. Ok, now, when the goal got tough. She abandon west point and maybe when some other things happen, when she got the umass, she did decide to abandon new mass as well, and maybe at some point that meant you know I'm scandal I don't want to, my father or whoever with whatever is going on or maybe I just want a fresh start and away. I'm not just gonna walk away from. knowledge is time. I'm gonna walk away from all of it. Yet again, the track coach that she was You now have an affair with. I guess in some relationships with there was a talk. He brought up multiple times. You know that then I said about him was his really forthcoming with like people, change runner that tracked him down he's. Like now look I had a relationship with her. I dont think if

You were involved in her disappearance. Would you come forth that easily with that information? Here we had a relationship with each other, but we weren't doing that the time, but she talked about multiple times of just disappearing. Not That we are also, what did we just say she either got into a car willingly or she was abducted. Okay, so there is no communication. We have all this com occasion that we can see between her and her father between her and billy between her and her sister and our friends? There's no phone calls in there to hussein bag daddy there's. No, there is no, we don't see any phone calls. She wasn't planning trip with him right when he wasn't right. In tandem with her, there would have been communication for that unless they're getting together, like some kind of cia operatives in discussing this over coffee, you know whatever, but I dont see.

Any phone calls to him leading up to this, and this is a major event she didn't I had to leave six months before she left. She decided to leave at the last minute. I think ever within a day or two of one Liddy levy, and she could. I had somebody else on the side, though, but we ve never heard no, we know, but we're just talking about the the the track coach at this point: racine baghdad. Okay, so If he was involved in her disappearance. That means he followed her four hundred and thirty five miles away from campus and just happened to be in the same area and was able to try. Aker there. That doesn't make any sense he's not involved in this. yeah. Well I mean you could put it in the idea of a I gotta get away hey you want to get away, and he says oh well. I can be gone for a couple of days, but I gotta get back at this point so that that'd be. would be a reason why they would drive tandem. Ah.

It's possible that she was right in tandem with some way that wanted to do harm tour, this possible. That I mean that is possible. So basically I mean what we're saying is we dont think that this guy had anything to do with her disappearance. He does seem to be kind of out of her life at this point, as a main, figure. So that puts us at our final fork in the road, and I think we ve clipped often chipped off a lot of the other forks, but it leaves us with just that. It looks a lot of and looks like a lot of evidence points to her getting into a vehicle somebody she knew, or somebody took her now. You said if somebody took her she's, either dead or being held somewhere and we don't know where that is now. I hope that son of a bitch doesn't listen to our show now, if she got into a vehicle with somebody, she knew it

probably somebody that she had a lotta communication with leading up to this, and that would be probably kate, poor, sarah You know her chin friends from from you may ass. Well were they during that? We get her that monday or tuesday you know, and the other thing was it. sister she had conversations with her sister. I dont think it was her sister why her sister was notified about the disappearance and notified their father, and I think that if this her was involved in new, where she was, I think, of any family member was involved, Fred would know. What's going on and friend would probably have backed off at some point, yeah cause. I mean he searched for a long time and I still don't think he's fully backed off. I mean there is some argument about that. I mean a lot of people. Think like cares, what here's? What we do know is ever

these different and ever bay would react different, and if you're child went missing, you would act different than I would act so You know, maybe, five years after looking, author approaches, and says I want to write a book about your daughter so, I want to bring to light the subject and maybe I'd go hey. You know what this great idea, maybe I'd, be on every podcast. Got. Tells me I would my get tells me I wanted shut. The fuck up mommy you hear me on the show, I don't shut up any less, but I feel like that's what I do, but you can't put any guilt or blame on on fred for not doing Things could also week. We don't know how much he talked to new Reporters are how much other stuff he's talked about. What we do know is, he hasn't been talkin to james runner. Maybe just doesn't like the guy. You know

he hasn't talked. He optimism. Armoury is intact us here that whatever but he's not going on a million shows talking about this, in france, defense. We ve not up approached him. Now spoken to law enforcement. Is he look into dateline and he is look into government officials be the governor or senator, or you know people involved in new Hampshire by any ask them for answers. You know Might just you know who cares look in areas that even talk to you the author didn't didn't talk to. You know he he might be an old school guy and he he and he has his a he has his agenda. If she went missing on purpose, I dont think he knows. No. He doesn't and I think that sad and if she did go missing on purpose at sight, you not committed any crime. for this one and start a new life yet

could you mail and anonymous letter remain? I wouldn't have to be anonymous, it be from you, but could you mail it from a from a parts unknown? You no kind of thing your father. but the other thing that we have to believe here as if she went missing and is living elsewhere and friends helped her do this. These are people that decided they're not going to reach out to the Murray family and their some spare elation that they have reached out. But again, why would Fred put up this front and doesn't make a lot of sense to me? I do think, though, if she made it out of those hills alive that she had help from somebody and that's probably somebody she knew an end look, and there is also, I think, even

smaller, possibility of that. She got in a car with a stranger and the stranger dropped, her off some place and We just didn't, live in that area and just never heard of her disappearance and but that to me that that's a very small chance that she just went off on her own. She was just driving by herself and her plan was just to get away from everybody. I think that's very small chance. So what what? What your final thoughts? What your final belief, I my thoughts. exactly that, if she made it out of those hills alive, they did that somebody helped her and it was poor probably a friend or somebody that she trusted, and what I mean by that is that, if it was traveling alone, and in tandem with somebody, unfortunately idle believe she's alive anymore. While the cat

dense thought it. No I'm not finished, because I tell you what here's the thing geared if she didn't make it out of those hills that mean she was abducted by somebody that mean she was picked up by somebody. They had ill intentions now, here's that Here's where I have a big problem with. Ok now you have said the fbi's per wobbly involved in some fashion in and we don't need to know how their involved I get. There there are always and what here's the thing you have, a father whose landing answers here, getting a lot of answers from that. Local law enforcement now local enforcement has stood by their believes that mara disappeared on of her own- will did. She wanted to go missing that she took off on her own and they're kind of at a loss. Okay, now that not in there and there is some speculation that the police did it. But I dont think the police were involved in her disappearance. I think that maybe the police did

have a little bit of keystone cop in them, meaning that it's a little bit of you know we on. We run the police force. We run the sheriffs department up here and we Do our own thing and we right. You don't need to worry how we're doing that. We get the job done at the end of the day. To worry and in that area is why is it keystone, cop- and I pointed out to you that, strange the strange thing about the area. To me, that shows me. How kind of keystone carpet is is: did the the le voice, towing company, toes the vehicle away right and the voices owned and operated by fire fighter or the fire chief, so that chose me kind of town. This is nothing against the people that live there but I'm going a little bit against howled. The town is operated the infrastructure okay. So if it

my town, the police chief or the fire chief in the tow truck company, is operated by the same guy. Well, that seems a bit of double dipping and it seems a lot little lucy goosey to me right, am I crazy you're, while you're crazy, but but am but I think, there's something pointed out here right that that if you had those kind of ties with things that there needs to be, I dont know, I dont think that the cops did anything wrong. I think that they, I think, here's a thing man. This is what bugs me out. I think they showed up to the scene of an accident. There were signs of open containers and alcohol. They believed that they we're witnessing Do you why they resulted in an accident and the person had fled? I believe that that probably something that they come across on a regular basis, so that so what happens as when you're a cop and use

this go. You go under now before you go under that notion that all I've seen this before. I know how to investigate it in boom. wake up three days later and it's a missing persons case and now, all of a sudden you fucked up in you, didn't investigate it right. Will you didn't know when you showed up? night. It was not a missing persons case as far as you knew right may all signs pointed to this. Do you I flee? However, I think that the cop, made some moves to kind of cover their, but which is fine. fine, they should cover their boats, but at the same time you should involve the family in the investigation, especially if you don't believe that they are involved in the disappearance of this person. If you have the floor, are knocking on your door and begging for me answers for that yet in in wanting to know what happened to his daughter, you got to either in

elude him or you. You have to come up with some answers here and if he wants to get the f b and f b, I involved I kudos to because guess what our country is bill on checks and balances right in the way we run our system yeah, and I, like I like his quote. You know it's not his quote, but the quote of you know who's going to police. You know the police yeah, I'm just going to police the police as an item and lance on miss murmur this. It who's gonna, police, he's gonna police, the pod castors and I thought, it fred is coming off in a way that he's saying you know what I want the f b I to investigate the cops, that's not how he is. In my opinion, it might come off that way, but what I think he's trying to say is can have somebody else that might be more an arrest or more informed. Take a look at this case through different, I

because basically, you guys have come up with some thoughts and and the need to stop there and yeah in its twelve years later they ve come up with nothing being have not they from march twice. march two of two thousand and four, presented. No other options are no other answers. Sense. It it's been twelve year Let's let somebody else look at this, and you know what all of us people the fbi, the police, guess what guess? Who pays their bills? The victims in this crime or disappearance of it might not be a crime at all. But the victims in the past that live in the area, and I think that they owe that ass to have somebody else, look at this thing and get some answers captain. You wound me up and you let me go now. I need to hear your thoughts. I need a cold. I were I to tell truth. I honestly don't know in and when a rail told me, hey, guess, check out this case. My first,

fain into this case was, I think, the twenty twenty or something I saw a couple minutes and again. It seems like such a simple case of then it's open up these you pill back these onion layers and you just peeling back and there's this more and more and more and becomes more questions of war. she left that monday and then more questions what happened at the scene now, because if you then she trying to run away forever. Then all this evidence points to that at the scene as well. So I think this is the case that I shall continue to be. And arrested in I know I'm very interested arrested too the missy mar marmara guys are gonna, be working on a documentary on very in I didn't see in that of seeing some clips and some trailers for that which has our good, genes runner in it as well and that's very creepy. I look forward to reading james runners book, and are getting more information. This is a case that it's really kindly

thinking man's case, because all it is pondering take an idea and is pondering on it and I think that's. Why enjoy this case and I think our continue. I you know its proud, I lean more towards foul play than this just away and never contact in her father, because signs don't point to that but there's always and arresting danes coming up. In this case, a lot because of the true crime community Stayin this stuff that come out on the internet, stuff, that's come out on different podcast ah saw there's just been a bunch, and I think there are some in interesting points. We burn up real, quick well and for me this case I actually looked in this case. Probably five or six years oh and I got into it for a couple months, and then I had to set aside because there wasn't a lot new information coming out at the time and it has picked

some steam with other people working on it, and you know those armchair detectives and those cyber sluice in them casters and everybody that's been in than james render, of course, but it did have brought me back to it and in this is kind of been a case for me where I can check in and check out. You know I check in a couple years and unchecked back out, you know- and we had it back in because we we're to do the show now for me This case has always been about the fork in the road. And what I mean, is it there's all this stuff leading up to her disappearance, you know, there's all this stuff leading up to her, leaving campus all this stuff leading up to the accident scene, and where did you go after that? There was one I when you first look at it. For me, there was a million forks in the road. Now I think that we have ben enough time on it. I've spent enough time on it. I'm only left with to fork in the road, I've kingdom all often and I'm not sure to prove

Anybody that I have a theory. That's right, I'm just presented logic we might just presenting to you what what worked for me, because at the end of the day I do need some answers. Unfortunately, here for me, I don't have the final answer and I dont know that I ever will into their new evidence or new proof presented to me, but to me that the two things I can't get out of my head. I pinged everything off, except for these two things the in the tail pipe still fuses me a lot, and I dont know where to go at that and the the thing is, I think, at the end of the day, the dough those dogs did follow trail to the middle of the road, and I think that that's where her feet left the asphalt and it left there because she got, the somebody's car. That was either willingly her by force. boy other interesting things that have taken place. Sensitive disappearance was some. You know internet activity by by some

well they're trying to get involved in the case may be herb her just muddled, case, I guess yeah. You have that with any case that starts picking up steamer error, any there's a lotta case that, like germany ramsay for, if you start, google any, I find thread after thread and you can get involved in that videos made by a guy and some of them are just a little strange. His plays a music in the basement his dancing around, but why the videos was really strange because he just looking The screen and he starts laughing as for about a minute and a half and then after he is done laughing, he smiles and winks at the camera, and then it pops up happy anniversary, and this guy's name is one. Twelve dirt bag ran like that. He's he's laughing on the anniversary of mars disappearance ways when this video posted everybody

really said, all those guys creepy as hell, and he proudly had something to do with it. I don't believe that for a second I disbelieved this guide just wants to be involved. involved. I think he's a lonely guy and he's involved that way. He also had some conflict with james runner and, I think, touch on that an interview or not for sure, but again, we will were afraid, freaked out, ginger and our. But again I just I just think, as can have a lonely man and and had nothing better to do dollar thing I find it interesting that I'm gone. be diving into more. As I look into this case is Billy's phone records the day she went missing there over sixty. Some phone calls made thirty some before she went missing thirty, some after twenty. You know I eat that's in arresting your exactly. and I actually have some different numbers than that, but you, I think not-

numbers are right and your numbers are wrong. While I probably wrong cause, I'm I'm normally wrong about a lot of know. You very well could be right, but the numbers I had were like fifty phone calls. So we're not terribly far often- and I had seen like maybe twenty four to twenty six phone calls for her disappearance shortly before the disappearance and like twenty four to twenty six phone calls after the disappearance I think there is a lot like us and I think, there's a lot of theories about her. missing I to get away There has been some sightings, I dont know if their credible, but there's been some signs of possibly murmured in canada, and there are some sightings in florida, ah of possibly marbury, but she was in a car with canadian license plates. So I don't know what to think of that, but I do find that stuff

pretty interesting, also fine, allow the psychic readings about this case, pretty interesting as well, yeah I enjoyed hearing those as well did to me The ones that I heard were things about more the hills in the mountains in that area and it being a dark place in you know and steer people away from being involved in in the case, which was yet which was not telling of anything at all. I mean that's, that's a very vague, marie. and I do believe that some psychics pretend to be psychic, not that not that. I know that it that it acts exist, but while some people per day the b, a host of a show tat she herself well and we all saw pee wee herman when when he went to try to find his bicycle there, but but regardless, what I'm saying is it was creepy. The the psychic stuff that I heard was creepy, but it was very vague. Yes, is gone, pretty way

are that I thought was interesting was believe. Runner had some location. Debt some guys from a of a podcast, we're gonna go visit and they they backed out from that visit. I'd like to know the that location. I think I would I go there. Well, let me ask you this: you have brought up these this sab location to me, but for now one is supposed to be at the location at the answers I guess I think they. I think it was If you go up there, that you'll find her or or something I'm not really for sure, but I know that they got scared and backed out, and that area of the country that people to want to be left alone, but I wouldn't mind taken some of my marine bodies and gone up there myself. Yet captain, let's pack up the jeep grab a couple frogmen,

And we'll go out into the wilderness will check this place out, we'll get the location we will find the x on the map and we'll get it all straightened out. Boy the end of the day. What we really hope is that the family has answers, don't believe that they do have answers, and I I hope they get that an people might find that talking about some. This stuff is disrespectful, but I to me it's always keeping lie on the case and in that pushes the issue think, that's everybody. That's involve James runner. I think because MRS Marie, our show basically we when a brain light to something and hopefully get keep conversation gone, so she's not forgotten, and we do get answers wonder well now that answers for the family, of course, but in

til. You can provide answers for the family, maybe a little more help. You know from law enforcement, f b I and and people in the area that push the issue a little bit or at do some recommended reading. If of course, just like last week, we have, his new book, true crime attic. This is the most thorough book regarding the morrow murray case and you can pick it up on pre order right now it will be coming out next week. May twenty fourth and you could pick that up amazon. You go to true crime, garage dot, com click on our big giant, beautiful, amazon, banner right there. You support this costume zero dollars extra and you go straight to the ammo on website, and you pick up his book me get it right when it comes out young ones, in that you're gonna to take about this book. Is it's not just about this case, but it's what this case can do to you and when I got involved. In this case, I mean we all know on I'm. Ah some cases I just don't get into

one- I don't into I talking about five hours a day, sometimes for weak. At the time this this for some reason, this cases just back so odd, he touches on that a little bit and- and you know what I've always heard from from you know, many different authors. I never heard this from james, but the thing I found very interesting. I've heard for many authors, the latter, thing that you want to do. The last thing you want to have happened when you're writing a book when you set out to do it is that you find yourself becoming a character in the book right at some. At some point. The story has taken you so far into it. Then you have to write yourself now now. That's what you do in this area in this, but so to me is fascinating, so good or website. True crime, garage, dotcom and pick that up today get things to every bay. That's involved in the true crime army. Not just

our shared by all the other- shows much love to you guys be good. Each other was the next week and until then don't let it This spring transform your outdoors

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