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and that's another, the be all right. Everybody gather round grab a chair, gravel beer. Let's talk some true crime date of July 14th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine wednesday is one thousand three hundred and nine h. My name is detective bud seems police or police department interview room me is detective. William, my blowing detective John major, the alliance police department, the room is what

rubbing April first. Ninety, ninety nine alliance, ohio. Alliances in the north eastern part of the great state of ohio, north of cannon and east of akron. back in ninety ninety nine there were about twenty three thousand people living in alliance, witches and start counting. One of those people was twenty six year old, yvonne lane. She was found murdered in her home. now. Homicide is not a normal thing in alliance back then we too Because we see about one homicide a year, sometimes none. divine lane was a mother. She was not living alone. She was found by her mother, yvonne's mother, tanya lane went to the home of her daughter, vanish

seen on that April, first tanya giovanni dead, with her throat cut and she was lying in a pool of our own blood. Her five- children were in the house but were unharmed. There was a lack of forensic evidence. Or to partial, bloody footprints found at the sea, David thorn yvonne's ex boyfriend and the father of one of her children was instantly a suspect David was eventually tried, convicted and since a life without parole for the murder, you, the police. Their best lead when a woman named rose, more content did them to say that she and her boyfriend Chris Campbell. Spoke with a young man named Joseph Wilkes, an incredibly Joseph told them he was in town because he had been hired to a woman

chile, Joseph Wilkes, admitted to having killed giovanni, and he claimed that David thorn yvonne's ex boyfriend hired him to do so. He also gave the cops a detailed account of how the pair had planned the murder. This confessions and David thorn to prison for the rest of his life, Joseph Wilkes, is imprisoned as well here thirty years to life, David thorn, as can initially claimed he is innocent and he The strong alibi for the time of the murder his face, in a number of organizations, are currently conducting a campaign of his conviction overturned because they believe The investigation may have been botched or even worse, covered up those who believe in David thorns innocence suspect that the police botch the case were determined to get a result, so they can.

talked in a murder for higher plot and forced the confession. This, his true crime garage- and this is the case of bon light joining us in the garage. Today we have maggie freely, as some of you may know, her from the disappearance of Mara Murray documentary series. That was on oxygen a couple years ago and I believe right now, the people they want to watch it. It is currently streaming on peacock. Maggie is also the host of the unjust and unsolved pie cast in. She is king,

acting and in depth investigation into the murder of twenty six year old, yvonne lane a case that some say is unsolved because they have convicted the wrong man. In this case hello, maggie. Before we get into the meat imported, of this case in your investigation. All of these years later. How are you doing, and how did you find this case after supper, We back with his eyes, I'm doing all right we're cover. From covert? Actually, so my voices I'm gone. You know. I found this case very long time ago. I guess at this point working on it for a year, maybe almost like two years ago, I found this case I wasn't how touch David. I dont remember exactly if I came to sue his wife or if she came to me, but it was bad to my attention, as in this case twenty two years, this guy, who alot of people say wrongfully convicted for all that time and

hasn't had anybody on. When I first talk to David, he told me his case was dead in the water and he was right. It was he used up all of his appeals and it's an incredibly complicated cases will get into so it was really difficult to find people who were willing to take it on pro bono? And so I decided to look at it. I didn't have pursued for unjust, an unsolved, and afterwards I was just like. I can stop thinking about it, because there so much here, I'm kind of drove me a little crazy and I just said you know what I need to do. An entire series of us, David thorns One of the men they have been convicted in this case and he was an ex boyfriend and the father to one of your bonds, children and he has been locked up for over twenty years in this case now. This isn't a high, ok, so alliance, ohio, and it was a case that actually received. I was a little surprised at received more media attention than I had speculated on going into it, but in there was a book written on the key

well. I couldn't find the the title of the book to you recall the observance of the book, everything about the same when it wasn't on the case. It was brent, turvy, he's forensic experts. He looked into the case he pictured to books. One is on what not to do it. A crime scene features this yes and another one very similar, so there actually to forensic textbooks. Now, if you could give him tell us a little bit about our victim here, you ve gone, lame a mother of five children, his exact five kids, twenty six years old, the oldest, came at the time was ten geographers kevin. She was sixteen sousa Jehovah's witnesses. from you know what family has said. Anne and friends, I said at the time she was trying to get back on track, trying to become a day out Jehovah again, but just have five little kids and had to me.

and me, and you know what we know she wasn't really working. She was on welfare and cheers kind of struggling to take care of all the kids one of the children's fathers different dad's. He his parents were taken care of one of the kids who is disabled. The oldest cared lived with his grandparents too. She was taking care of three of the kids on her own to three of the children living with her at the time of the moon, gas, and actually there was the fourth child with her at the time because she was trying to get custody back of him. They need the disabled boy who actually becomes kind of a big part of the story and ass. He was there when the murder took place. He was in the home as while Brandon passed in the

and threatened. Moral home can David thorn one of the men who have been convicted in this case of her murder. He knew her from high school and then they reconnected years after high school is accurate. Yeah sell their method of the wholesale school she wanted to go to school for cosmetology and he was going forward detail, making davits really big into cars, so they wanted at the same occasional school there. Junior scenery are of high school and each other in the hall they overstated have classes together, they are taking different classes, is by. She saw her in the hall and really struck by her. Everything we ve heard is that she is absolute, studying this knock out baby, I got a call Years later see they were at a car parts shop. She needed to fix her car bumped into him and he was like oh I'll fix your car for you and that's china, how it how it started agree with is the father of Brandon. So where does bring

the fall in the order of children and for my understanding he finds out about having a sun with the yvonne after Brandon has already brought into this were lost. Really complicated as we get into later in the seas in the children and and her pregnancies on but Brandon as the second youngest, her in david work, other somewhere around about a year. They broke up. She has the father of a couple of the other kids. None of them are confirmed. The only confirmation we have is brandon from a dna test with David but so the alleged father of a couple of the other kids hurt him were on and off for about ten years, so they had a very complicated and from what we understand actually abusive relationship, so Hearn David broke out because of him, you know, is the father of a bunch of kids There was just too he was always gonna, be in her life. Things are tumultuous and current David came went separate ways. She

calls him. You know a couple months later, maybe in lima later saying I had a baby. It's yours, that's kind of that David was dating another girl at the time who is kind of like what the hell here friends calling you and you now have a kid. I'm things got pretty complicated, further team of them from what we know they were trying to. Maybe get back together, David says that they were talking about that. We have heard from other family members that you know there were said engagement ring so David. Anyone were carrying on behind the scenes relationship while they were both seeing other people after a friend and born and they found out. You know they had a kid together. So nuggets really complicated

and I love the way that you describe it in your series, murder and alliance, because I think it really sums it up very nicely in nice in the package where you say erik the other guy who father multiple of the children. As far as we know, that's always been the belief or understanding he's the bad guy he's he's somebody. She just can't seem to quit for whatever reason, maybe it is because they have had such a long relationship or they had so many children together, he's always going to be around and david and heard just and work out, mainly because of this other guy, because of Eric always being there, and you said that you know David seem to be kind of the more stable individual that she would kind of turn to when things were going right with you or when she had had enough of this air guy yeah

that's kind of what it seems like to me. I mean Hearn Eric from what we know I mean there would beat the crap out of each other like really physically abusive. I talked to her son, rest in india reveal erics, allegedly in the podcast Eric, as allegedly his father thinks Eric father. Then he says yeah they were pretty fruity frickin violent to each other. So you know and David every time we know is this kind man who would take her back. He loved her and take care of her during those off times with Eric and you know we bring up the fact that we don't know who the dad net we don't. You know for certain know who the dad's are, if the other four children. not in any way. It see no shame her anything, but it does get complicated when you're talking about who could have done this. There are many Multiple men out there who could have father her children, who you know we have heard,

were that she had been pregnant with their children. So there was a lot of people that needed to be looked into, not just David and Eric wants to refine felt that he is in fact the father. What is his behaviour like it? It seems to me like he was willing to to step up to the plate and be as much of a father b. Involved in brandons life as much as possible from every account we have heard even at trial, from the social worker who is dealing with the custody and child support payments. They had an amicable relationship, look about there was no fighting We're Brandon there was no custody argument. It was basic you know you're gonna pay child support. Ok, you gotta go to court and figure out how much legally get into an agreement for that, and what we ve heard from all of those people is fine. Great David was happy to pay child support. David wasn't trying to get

Did he of brandon from what we know. Everything was fine, very sadly, youve, only twenty six years old she's killed inside her home at her residence some time before April. First, nineteen, ninety nine, and so all these years later we're talking over twenty one years later. What is the relationship between David and Brandon? Today I mean this is a this kid very sadly, his mother is killed when he's young, I'm I'm uncertain of his age at the time of the murder, but then to double down on that tragedy. His father is put away for life in prison. Brandon was too at the time she has really member much at all about the murder or his. His mother you know their relationship- is it's strange. No Brandon visited David all the time when he was a kid you know, people would bring him but ass the go on, he becomes a teenager, I mean

what is left is all they talk. He believes in it in a sense. He of course wants his dad I'll put other than that. I mean he's just to twenty something tat The thing is life in the you know, that's kind of it. It's stuff. We sowed him in prison. In these things really break up. Families investigators came up with a rough time frame of when they believe the murder went down and when it took place in your von lanes residents that night some time on march thirty, first, nineteen nine- nine and we have david thorn, who has been imprisoned all these years. Yet he was three counties away with a solid I clad alibi for his time that night take us through the I'm line of the how we get from this guy not being able to be a suspect because He has an ironclad alibi to now he's in prison.

I mean that's, that's it's complicated. I mean we ve put together a timeline, but, worse still, You know it's it's cool saying so The time of death for yvonne is some time. This is the coroner's report some time after seven p m march, thirty first, so there is an actual fourteen our window that she could have died. Her body was too covered around twelve twelve thirty April fool's day, She died sometime around seven p m the night before they couldn't really say other than that, so you from there David, was looked out right away. He is the father of one of the kids there recently in court for custody. He's smart, his grandfather smarten instantly got him a lawyer. The lawyer came, and that was that was David, never talk to the police again, so the police ways very suspicious because David, not a lawyer and didn't, want to talk to the police

he told me listen to my podcast or any of that is that you guys have covered about potential wrongful convictions. I mean that's a pretty smart to do to get a lawyer and not talk to the police, because who knows what will happen so they took that as he's guilty. He won't cooperate with us, so they were always on him. Since then, trying to figure out, you know how he did Ass. There, a couple friends in their friend group that the police had brought in you know asking them if, if they, They were always onto this kind of murder for higher, because David had now by that's very certain so they thought okay well, he obviously wanted to get rid of her, so he must have paid somebody to do. It some of you know looking at these severely abusive partner, who yes was in prison at the time, however, was incredibly abuse. Evan. If we're gonna hire somebody, he could have to

its other. You know, baby daddy, is the south. So, for whatever reason their hell bent on David ends sometime around in July they here, the name, Joe Wilkes, and they kind of home non Joe as being the person that David hired tumor the revision and they in Joe who is a really sad, a character, and he confesses and said yes, David paid me to do that so it was about three months later that they actually found on the alleged accomplice. He Italy, confesses and David, is arrested that day July, fourteenth or fifteenth but it's a little more complicated than that, because oh yeah beforehand for law enforcement to git to David's motive, there's some twists and turns that have to hand

what are you talking about? We'll just saw idea that law enforcement motive is. This is about money so he doesn't want to pay child support and he's this broke. Guy he's so broke that he would rather, higher some way to get rid of her and then he would never have to pay child support. But then, at that point you would be so kirsty which would cost a lot of money and then the thoroughly and the fact that we now know that he had money David had me Yeah I've seen the account the statements from the account David had a hundred and thirty thousand dollars in an investment account. He was working here. He was going to swap meets one, hop of that, that was money that he just got when his father guide is dad. Was a veteran died by suicide so David got a lot of money from his life insurance, You know military life insurance, so he had all that and he didn't need to touch it because

working in making money working and he was doing really well. He had car as he was gonna smart needs telling parts for three hundred dollars a pop I mean child support was only four hundred and fifty dollars a month, which I guess, ending to ninety nine was a lot more than now, but he could make that money selling a core part. It's definitely an interesting motives that they came up with, especially when nobody said there was any issue with the payment. Sir. custody or anything like that. You're law enforcement I'm coming The motive of well, we ve been doing. other on an off again and she, always on it on again off again with Eric me that makes makes more sense of emotive that yeah borrowing read over because sheep's leaving me for this, this scumbag and I'm the gig. that's always turn help her out and she just can't see that. But let me more sense to me of a motive. I mean there is

at least as we get further in theirs. many more motives, and you realize that almost everyone around her had emotive, tell her pretty much it except for David because again. What we know is that he loved her. They were trying to get back together. He was planning on buying her ring. So if it's definitely interesting, I think too. You know if I were someone sitting on the jury. Looking at this case. Even all these years later, I look at the as the child. Support is kind of a blanketed statement that encompasses a lot of different possible motives for David thorn, where it could be. Not only does he,

want to pay the child support, but if he is going to be paying for his son Brandon, he would prefer to have caddies knowing you have custody of his son. He may also blame look. Brandon was not being raised in the most wonderful of of worlds and he may have blamed her for some of that, and I mean there's a lot of stuff going on here as well, and there seems to be some some back and forth between David's current girlfriend and when he had to see you have on because of brandon. If there there's really just a lot, they could have been bubbling up to the surface at the time that they could fall under that sort of child support blank.

Of of motive here. But, as you pointed out, there are other people that would have motives of their own and in fact we see that there are a lot of other people now before we get into them. We should say that during the course of the arrest and then the conviction first police are led to this Joe Wilkes by individual, the contacts, the police department saying that she spoke with MR will on the night of the murder. So exactly so so the timeline the night of the murder allegedly has occurred. To Joey confession is he was at the carnation mall, which is about four miles from event house down state street if you're familiar reliance and straight shot down, this mean main brood, a highway, but you know three lanes. Each side be road. He

is at the mall or on closing time, and he bumps into these two people rose more and chris Campbell, and seize them, then he leaves. are to her house and kills her a core to them. He tells them that flash is a knife and tells them I'm here to do a job and according to rose, that job is to kill it. Earl, some guy hired him to kill her and, according to Chris, some guys girlfriend hired me to kill her you know their stories are so interesting because in their original statements, the police, roas specific. equally says the knife was not a pocket knife. He flashed me, you know, and aid in nice, in a sheaf by trial, It is now a pocket nice, the exact weapon. She said that it was not, but this is how jos name comes up three later, a woman causes we sang woman in the bill.

Kings. Daughter knows something about this and that's kind of how it all started spiralling at the beginning of July to dig in contact with your wilkes and as we know it's it's a pretty quick. It seems pretty quick from the time they pick up Joe wilkes to getting the confession. We're not talking about days later weeks later that they get the confession, its relatively pretty quick once he becomes on their radar. Now, who is Joe Wilkes? What is his tie and two are victim? What is here his tie into our other suspect,

so Joe Wilkes at the time he was a teenager was eight teen news. Eighty or nineteen joe was addressed her. He was kind of known around town as this kid that you know it just sleep on people's couches. He had a really really sad, traumatic life growing up. He was abused by his parents, him in his siblings, got put in a foster home where he was also abused, were talking mental or physical sexual abuse. So he had a really tough growing up, he is actually pretty smart. Can he does not have a low iq, but he definitely Juno had so much trauma. That learning was not easy for him. He grew up with a shake like a policy. So when people talk him, they always think he's nervous. But it's just this physical the lahti that he has from all the abuse. Gino people like David were It's really nice to him. I mean he looked up to David. David was much older than hen. Again Joe was around

eighteen, David was twenty six at the time of the around. So there is an age gap the kind of all this kid- and you know if you sound walking on the stranger- gave him a ride home or you know helped him by his first car and a lot of the french group that I've talked to They all say that about Joe guy was a really sweet. Kennedy was just kind of always around and you didn't have a whole me was homeless, so the boy David took care of her views, time of the murder. He was staying out, a girl, girlfriends house or the time of at the time, the murder he was also staying at girlfriends house, so that's kind hu jia wilkes is he he was a scared tat. He was an emotionally disturbed cared anew. him in a interrogation room with three detectives. Who knows what could have

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on your show, murder and alliance, and I've gotta tell ya maggie its. It sounds awfully convincing to me when we hear that confession from Joe wilkes Well, you know it's it's one of those things were: nineteen indian, and they were not required to videotape the whole thing. So you don't have that, so we just have what what is on tape, and these are short tapes. I mean this is a half hour. Each of them there's two tapes. They talked him the first day, half hour. They go back the next day and pick up saying: hey, there's some things: we left out and they talked him again for a half hour. I mean the entire taped confession: is an hour long and if you ve ever seen an interrogation or you know anything like that. It's it's pretty common knowledge that the when the tape down is not when they first started talking. So the question is always been what happened before the tape was turning

yeah and law enforcement. Causa the tape confession, but seems like Joe has a different story about that. He says it's niven questioning from the beings it's simply and target asian- and he made some other claims as well yeah, I just says that no, they had him handcuff till all in they spend on him and and they were being aggressive to him- and you know that chose word, but you know in in one of the episodes I go into all these officers backgrounds and if that did happen, it would not surprise me. I have come across. You know some false confessions coerced by then I mean they're their personal files, one of the lead detective samson, his personal files, pretty pretty damning with sound, he is hit, were lying forging documents. So now he was on the officers who took Jos quote: confession

you know something we always forget, naive or forget- is that they to him going to jail. Saying David is in the next room and he's he's You know putting this on you. If you tell us, what happened, you will get a deal, so they did dangling he'll in front of him as we know, Joe got thirty two life for taking the deal and saying you know quote: allegedly, happened. And, as we know, David was out in the next room. David ever talk to police David had not talk to the police, at one time he went in with them with a lawyer and said I am not talking to you and that was it they decide to him saying in the next room, giving you up that's something to keep in mind. You know, that's part of you. What happened before the tape was turned down. that's really interesting to me too, because you have a scenario where, according to our witnesses, Chris Campbell and forget

more love, her rose more according to the two witnesses, the lead detectives to Joe Wilkes, he he saying some guy hired me to kill a woman. Will it doesn't say that David thorn hired me to kill his ex girlfriend. Some guy hired me to kill a woman, so that leads them to Joe Wilkes, but it doesn't necessarily lead them to David thorn, yet there very to be saying David, thorns sitting in the next room and turn in on you kid and it's gonna, be your asked that we put in the electric chair and fry exactly and it could have been. It could have been this air guy it could have been several other individuals that would have hired someone like a Joe wilkes to commit this murder. Now the general statements inside of that tate portion of

the confession or interviewer interrogation or, however, we want to label. It is basically that Joe wilkes saying I'm I'm remorseful for what I did. I kind of new the victim. I had met her on several occasions. I think that its jenny knowledge that he had even been to her residence, at least one time before the murder, and he says you know. I was remorseful for this that night, that I did it and- and you can hear I mean he's- ease sobbing throughout a lot of the the confession and he's basically says look. I know this guy been friends with David thorn for four years, and he's complained about you have on any complained about. You know not wanting to pay child support that he wanted custody of his son, and I had nothing to lose. I had hit rock bottom. I had no friends, I had lost all

family only friend I had was david thorn, an eye no money, no prospects heat Joe Wilkes, his life. His childhood is incredibly tragic and savages I mean, is heartbreaking to cure what he says took place during the course of his childhood, but then, even after he gets away from that. It seems to me like his life is always this rollercoaster ride of he needs help. He get some help and whether he follows sewer or not is is up for debate, but in this case he says I had lost pretty much everything

hit rock bottom. My friend, who I thought was my friend David thorn, took advantage of that took advantage of me any offered to pay me and help me out, and he convinced me to go and kill this woman and not only kill her but kill her at a time when he, when David thorn, could it couldn't led back to him. It would be impossible because he would have that ironclad alibi and let's go through the the timeline of events as it as it were. According to Oh and his confession, and let's, let's keep in mind as we go through this everybody out there and listener land that we're talking about a confession. That was its also it's it's a confession from Joe Wilkes, but it's also a story that is backed by by the state or at least by the prosecution,

in this case, and you have to wonder a lot of things fit nice neat imperfectly. I gotta see that right up front here. Maybe there there's there's a lot of things like when we go into these cases. And you're talking about an unsolved murders and you're looking at different suspects, we're always looking for a smoking gun right here. It's kind of them All of that, when you are looking at a possible wrongful conviction, you're looking for the smoking gun of why this guy is innocent, and it's really tough to find that here, because you have a very unique situation where Joe Wilkes could be guilty of this murder and david thorn had nothing to do with it now on the flip side of that coin is that if Joe Wilkes did not kill you of online, then David thorn didn't

anything to do with it. I mean it just it wouldn't work out that way. So the timeline as it were, according to Joe Wilkes and the prosecution, is what win win. Does this because we start seeing things actions being made according to Joe the day of the murder that says involved David thorne so the day before so we're talking the thirty first, which is the day of the murder. I guess They allegedly go to them all in the after that in the her noon, rent the room and they get forget. If it's the glass, I think it's the gloves. they get the gloves that afternoon and then David brings Joe back to the e he was staying. He was staying with a friend and then dave those about his day. He to his his martial arts class. He brings his lion cab. You know that's how they knew For sure he was there that ninety get a lion cup with him, which is it on you

or for David I mean he had cobb's any brought them around with him, so the policing did try to say he made this obvious alibi, blah blah blah. I mean I don't know that's up for debate gas, but that that was the alibi, Joe. Actually gets a ride to the mall that evening brain he knocked the father of Jos, friend, said. Yes, I brought him to them all. He wanted to stay there. He said he was staying there and They say that Joe walked to her house sometime after seven we he was seen at the mall, allegedly by rose and chris around a so, he wouldn't have gotten to yvonne's house until at least nine nine ready And then you know she's founded twelve thirty. The next day that it's really what we know Joe says the next morning, David picked him up. This is where things got a little dicey. He says David picked him up the next

learning sometime around eight thirty nine looks like he made a phone call from a pay phone to David. I'm not get to the phone calls in a minute around eight thirty david was at work and he had to take a lunch break and he, according to David, went to mcdonald's, came back within the half hours and a half hour break His boss spoke to police and said no. It was like an hour an hour and a half I'm actually, which would give David time to go to the mall to pick up Joe drop off go and get back to work. So that's you know The story from the prosecution is that David dropped it they got the room the night before the day before David picked him up in the morning got back to work. No, no questions it was a normal day. Everyone seemed normal, so that that I mean I could get into the phone calls and stuff

How do you wanna go from there just a kind of backup some of that statement. As far as the prosecutions concern? First, we have done thorne leaving work on the day of the murder on the 31st. What about twelve one thousand two hundred and thirty at day, and then we have Joe wilks checking into this hotel that's attached to or near them all and he's checking in it. Like one forty seven, I think one forty eight that day

that I mean that kind of lines. Up with what Joe statement is that David picked me up, and we kind of talked about how this was going to go down. He gave me some money for gimme a hundred dollar bill to check into the hotel room, because that's the other thing you have to lay out for the the court proceedings is: how did this broke? Guy get money to stay in a hotel and by some items to commit the crime, and so he says David gave me the money, the check into the sorts over of that kind of fits. The timeline is working in the favour of joe and against David here, where its lining up the David could have been but we have left work that they picked up Joe Wilkes taken him to the hotel they get. The gloves take them back to the the eunuch says at their last named the the family that he was staying with, what a fair friend, apparently he he needed to go back for a couple reasons sounded like he had scheduled something with brent e knox that for that afternoon, or

evening, and then brent is the one that takes him back to the hotel. Now he can't If somehow, he does murder, this woman in the trail leads back to Joe Wilkes David thorn in Joe Wilkes, can't have that happen right, we can't have a night where all of a this kid staying in a hotel room and the trail leads back to have. No, so he tells brent that I'm going to I'm just drop me off at the mall, because David thorns gonna pick me up there and we're going to go back to his place. I'm actually gonna be staying at his place that night and then the troubling thing. As you said, we we have courting to Joe will

he goes and walked to the victim's home. She knows him, so she let a man, they have a very brief conversation and then he says he takes the knife that ye purchase that night and he uses it to slash her throat, and this was I mean this is just horrific. The wound itself, I think you describe it as what eight inches for its own just deep and four inches wide, and when she was decapitated either results the smallest bit the holding her head on and according to the medical experts that represent a court given would have been.

Alive and able to react for a very brief period of time, we're talking seconds probably before she would have collapsed according to Jos, confession that does take place that she jumped up off. The couch goes towards the sliding glass door. I believe it's a sliding glass door says something. Ask him like why you know. Why did you do this to me? He says that he told her that David thorn asked him to or paid him to do, that he trips over something and he, according to Joe, he left their very quickly. This is one of those things where I could on either side of the fence very easily. You could sway me either way. The difficult thing here is one would expect there to be a lot of blood on the suspect the murder- and there was a lot of blood at the crime scene itself. We do have the prosecution in there. What they're saying is that?

Then he managed to knock it. Hardly any blood on him at all, because a difficult thing now for our murderer. If it was Joe Wilkes, he asked the walk one about four miles back to where he came from and not have anybody which no one did you know you don't get, there's no one here, it's not today that you're driving you see a blood covered man on the side of the road walking in the opposite direction? One a couple things and ever of that story is were now talking, it's probably ten o clock at night everyone. If we already have, we I believe his story. It's definitely dark by this time, so it doesn't line up completely with that seven o clock time of death, which that's probably more of a window rather than right. I gave her window they make. The window was up until she was found them and they really had. No, I gotta get twelve hour when I had no idea little

Joe. It is a very tight. Individual right is six four. So you're gonna notice him. If he's working on the side of the road that doesn't mean he's not going beyond in houses goin behind buildings. To get round the thing we ve mapped out. You can't really go behind houses, they'll think so yes, you're right it could its. It could be. sound, and I wasn't. There are ninety nine, but soon was soon thorn, is now David's wife, but has been as advocate since the beginning, and she did this with her son same time of night back then I think she and like oh five or something to put her son in what joe was allegedly wearing and had him walk down the street and it's you know this is a street that is strip malls me, like I said it's a very busy highway on theirs light everywhere, so he he d for that we would have been seen. There's no, you know straight shot behind houses, he

have to be zigzagging, and that would take for three hours when the hour and a half, so if he did it, he probably walked on the street and again that you know I find it really incredible to believe he wouldn't have blood on him. You know the clause, that were found did not have any evidence on them. So it's it is interesting I mean he could have walked without blood on him. The clothes on have blood on them, but like if you see crime scene. That makes no sense to me but drew led them to a knife and bloody genes, allegedly, Joe. So so I guess a big part that were missing here is Joe recanted. Almost immediately after at trial. In his testimony he says the police told me what to say so

pretty much immediately after he recounts and said you know, the police force me to say this and they told me where they were going to find this nice. That's not my knife. I didn't have that knife. They told me we're going to find your knife here and then dig out this knife from a storm drain. So that's been jos, new story, juice change story a few times over the years from I understand why he has indeed there. The thing is ever since he recanted the story has changed, but the fundamentals of it really happen that David had nothing to do with this. He has stuck to that for twenty two years. That David had nothing to do with. you know one story. He went over their killed, her one story: he went over there. She was already dead. Do you know I think, there's an that one floating around, but they all do put Joe there

he has not said otherwise why he says he didn't do this. You know he went and saw her already dead, which is really interesting, because nobody else puts jus right I am glad we have talked to people who put Joe the mall and say no, he was doing. X Y uneasy at them all he was. He was killing somebody at that time. We always talk about this in here in the garage when you have someone confess, especially when you need to find something you murder, weapon, murder, victim or anything else. It was involved in the commission of the crime you as an investigator you're looking to have that individual lead you to that item, and you do that so that when they do, we can't let you say well, tough cookies. You obviously lead us to the murder victim or the murder weapon or something that was used in the commission of the crime. It's kind of heart.

to deny now and say that you weren't there when, when you gave us this item now here in this case he leads them to some pants dickie through behind us and home and like the woods, sir tall grass area and what one that's just Sorrowed me like, if, if you didn't, commit this crime, whose just throwing pants into the woods at his head somebody's, or whether they knew them are not now. I your stand, there's! No, it doesn't sound like anything of evidentiary value were found on these pants. They were found months after, as you said July, and she was killed march. Thirty first, maybe April first at the aid is, but there found months later and they have nothing of evidentiary value autumn again, one of those pants, even we, then why does he know that their there is? Is bizarre. Oh if he didn't commit this crime. Yet whether or not

the police, told him where they were going to find this murder weapon or the folding knife is. Let's set that aside, because what we are being told per the case, file, is it they actually located to different knives? Is that correct? So, yes, there is actually least for knives found are now four years, so so that's like a complicated carpet when they went into storm drain. There were two other knives in there with the alleged murder weapon and they actually found the day that they were searching the murdered not three months later about a block away found a knife matching the knives in her kitchen sat on the street. So to me That seems like a more likely murder weapon. This name that was from her home that actually lie

Very similar to a blood stain on the couch where the killer seems to have wiped off the blade. It is almost an exact fitting for this kitchen so yeah. There was many knives found theirs said the incident at the mall, where this witness says. Oh, I saw Joe buying actually a pocket knife, but that was a later in may, and I have the receipt from when I was there. So this witness actually presented a receipt saying. This is the day I was at the mall and actually saw Joe their buying a pocket knife. so if you did by a knife- allegedly it wasn't even in tell a month after the murder and correct me, if I'm wrong here, Maggie there's a lot of moving parts and pieces. I'm trying my best follow along here, but if we are to believe Jos story he's telling us that he purchased a pocket knife or folding knife in the blade was

three and a half in the recently when you have three point one inches on that blade, and you said again that the the the throat the wound was how many inches deep for its four okay? So we're awfully close? There seems, may be possible, but then think about the without getting too descriptive, where there's no way of getting round if you're eating lunch, stop turn it off. If, if someone because, according to Joe wilkes statement, as far, as I understand it, it sounds to me like this wound was one in done right he's not in there's, not much he's, not cutting multiple times well now, you you're, hitting it exactly so that every expert whose looked at this case since then, but has pretty much said if not I said that that pocket knife, not have made this cut in four. Let's get incredibly gross

and say if he or any body were able to successfully make that caught using that weapon as it's been described, by all parties involved. We all agree on the dimensions in what type of weapon. It is that's not in dispute here, but if he were to do that, then the hilt or the part that the knife folds into, would have to be. forgive me for saying so, buried in the neck of our victim and how I get that you didn't find it for later. But how do you not find blood on that weapon? I don't care who wiped a clean war there are an early difficult there and then this bizarre, think of these all these knives being found around the neighborhood who who lives in this neighbourhood. As it's like, the white

the ceiling weapons all over the place I mean it's, it would be weird defined, John rambo yeah. I I mean it's it's just difficult now the next morning, though, what gets difficult for David as far as Joe wilkes statement goes, we do have phone records that say that a pay phone is calling David thorn that morning and we have the boss, his boss, saying David thorn laughed and we have Joe Wilkes saying David thorn picked me up, so the m, a lot of interesting things happened that trial, so that the trial was was in terms of the hence horrible enough. non. You know David's lawyer died of alcohol poisoning very shortly after he froze to death outside of his home, because he was so intoxicated knee passed out in the winter

he was drunk the whole trial. So you know the the prosecution brings. You know this expert who testifies about the knife in says she could stole. You know, live for seconds to ask why, after he caught her neck in David didn't of any rebuttal. Any report- witnesses, there were three witnesses called two of em worker four witnesses and one was this guy, who said? No, I saw him by the knife in may so David's tee was never called and x to say no a knife: wouldn't do this or never called an expert to Or to say, you know why the hell is there? No evidence on this never called an x or somebody to talk about the phone records. Fortunately, the phone and was not lying on the stand and actually said during the prosecutions cross. These calls for don't seem to have been answered. Actually, yes, he's calling him, but its neighbour likely not answered so sure Joe call d

but it would appear that he never answered the calls which has the interesting and then, of course, the other thing that happened at trial was the prosecution called the social worker for the child support and the social worker actually recalled herself for the defense, because she didn't like the way the prosecution we're trade her testimony she was like, I want to be recalled and came. And said actually they had a really good relationship. I don't wanna, be you know, have the prosecutor twist. My words on record, so you know those. Two things, a trial that that we're good, despite the horrible defence, will also do prosecution, keep some evidence of the trial. They want to go there please. Yes, we had an incredible amount of brake, violations, one of which is. witness others. Two witnesses one of them really key witness who says he saw a man leaving the home around

hence thirty in the morning of April first given likely dead around ten thirty in the morning on considering she was found at twelve thirty in the time frame of death was sometimes seven p m the night before so this witness tells police that looking at the scene. Oh my god, I was king by here a few hours ago and actually saw guy you're leaving this house, and he gives the description of this man They bring a man to do a line up. He doesn't pick anybody out. They have inferred bringing back for another line up. He doesn't pick anybody out David, we know wise in one. If these lie nazi doesnt pick David out. You know why He again, David had alibi. It was likely not be david, seen leaving the house or anything like that, according to him. This man's name is George Hale he's been interviewed many many many times courting to him. He did pick some out in the line up- and this is really interesting because, this line up one of the many

violations it should have been given as discovery, and it never was. This line up is so, we have no way of telling if George hale is telling the truth, but he says he pointed to a man and said: that's the man that looks like the man I saw, leaving house this man that he picked out, he says they told him. No, that can't be the guy. That's a cop. They put like a cops picture in as part of a line up just like a blank photo, but he says he picked out a guy. Who was one of the lead cops in the case? as I was leaving the house so you know they kept george hail. the defence, this witness that could have been key saying what I saw somebody led in the house. It was not our David and actually pointed to a completely different person who were other cannot worms, have found out that you vine was having relationships with people on the police department for the fact that

Words didn't know this and picked out a phone of an officer allegedly is very interesting I want to stay on this here for a minute, because I don't I don't want anybody to get confused ngo. All he picked out a guy that happens to be a cop. All that much the guy that rapid murder teeth and right and his words were it looked like the guy. I saw so you know what whatever that means. He didn't say this is the guy, and sometimes when you know you can't just give a photo lineup of a five different pictures of the guy that you think did it. You have to throw several picture of people, you know they did not do it in there, and so often they will you. A photo of an officer as a kind of stand in for some one. One thing that I would be cure: there's a there's, a lot of things here that I think need sorted out with this portion of of the case file.

and one I would want to know is because immediately what the police say is well, this witnesses unreliable. You know because he picked out the wrong guy one. I want to know what was there a picture of Joe Wilkes in this line up, because we know that David. According to the prosecutions case and according to everybody agrees day was not there, so even to have his photo in the lineup seems bizarre to me, but then take it a step further. Do they know for a fact that this guy is an unreliable witness, because the officer that this picture was present with somebody that, just like David, could not have been there. That night. We don't know, we don't have an answer and not the frustrating part is you know all of this wise disappeared, I have two depositions from two of the main detectives, muck, low and samson, and the attorney whose deposed

I'm says what happened to this line up: where should it have been, and they admit yet should have been in discovering? I don't know, I don't know why I mean they're, so many highly fishes things like that, in this case words like. Why are you not doing things by the book wire, lineups, disappearing wire? Witnesses being suppressed, you know, there's so much time that money said and if they did get it right, if they do get it right and Joe and David did this the way they said it, I mean got really lucky, because there is a lot of arose, and there is a reason why people don't trust these connections, given lean she's found around twelve twelve thirty april. First she's, her dead bodies

found by her mother tanya. Who is there to pick up one of the children, I believe, to take them to school or take them somewhere for the day, and that was pretty a pretty routine thing. It sounds like let's go back to the murder scene, because we have- were children, as you say that, were there no matter how you shake this thing, they were there. During the murder. Before during and after the murder. What is the and you can ballpark the ages for me if, if you need to, but what is the oldest childs age and what is the youngest child, ship, so the kids that were there, the youngest was trenton. He was just bore and he was a baby. I mean I don't think he was even a year yet so Trenton was in the crab. I understand that house. It's, really understand it until I saw but there's two, the reef floors kind of enter in what looks like the basement floor because the rest of the house you go upstairs and that's where

kitchen is in the dining room in the living room where she was murdered and then one more floor up is her bedroom. So baby was sleeping in the bedroom. Up on the third floor, and then there was brandon and Preston pressed him was six brandon was too they were locked in bed where there was a lock on the outside. They were locked in bedroom and then there is the need, the news for war, and he is the disabled child. His fragile acts like a form of kind of severe cash but explain a kind of kind of down syndrome, a little bit no kind of on that spectrum. I'm sorry, maybe he's they always know he was for so he's so precedents, Brandon S, new yeah, tritons, the baby and then he is for, and he was in his crib. On the first floor, the bay that you walk into so he was actually not lie.

In a room or a baby that couldn't move. So he was actually free to roam the house, and when he was found the next day he allegedly said that he saw Jimmy Jeremy Jimmy or jeremy push mommy down. So the thinking has always been that Vinnie saw this person. He saw what happened the way that this breaks down is other than the statement from from that child. It doesn't sound like any of the other kids heard or saul anything that was of use to the investigation. Now I mean, depending on what time she was killed,

We know that April first is supposed to be a normal day. They're gonna go about the normal routine of their day, so much so that europeans mom, is coming to pick up one of the children and is not till noon. Twelve. Thirty that her lifeless bodies discovered and again we none of the kids saw anything during the fact during the course of the murder or even after well words as far as we know. As far as we know, and that's that's what makes it even more sad is that you know it's very likely. Vinnie saw this and its us, really sad, because many kit communicate, we don't know, what then he saw he can't communicate it and in any interview he has done since, which was really then only with police, and I think you know, like a child psychiatrist there, it's nothing, nothing of value has come from it and you know he's not really able to be interviewed.

you know by me or anybody he you know. I asked his brother pressed in the six year old. He was six at the time. I spoke depressed and he's in the pond cason. You know he said there's no there's no point in asking Veni because he doesn't it. His brain doesn't really function like that. He's. Not you not able to communicate So that's the tragedy to is that not only does this child prob, wasting his mother murdered, but the one child who dared cannot communicate what you saw, then you so much for listen to the show we want to hear from you go to our blog at true crime, garage dot com, and please follows on facebook, twitter and serene at true crime garage current,

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