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the Welcome to true crime garage. Where view are whatever you are doing things for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me, as always, is a man that I often wonders why the word abbreviated is so long. He is the captain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's can be seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend

Today we are drinking good life by bills. Burg, brewery garage grade four out of five bottle caps. This is an ip and it's got everything you would want and expect from us. ip and for you travellers, bills burg is in the heart of williamsburg, surrounded in history and all that jamestown stuff located just off. of the colonial parkway and this week's beer was brought to us by first up a big thank you to seal from where parts on conseil, recommended some beers zombie. In one hundred million angel singing, which I'm positive. We have featured that one before, but thank you for the suggestions and the big shot. it's a stephanie from shy town next to cheers to bridget in audubon pennsylvania, a big shout out to valerie and john in minneapolis. Next up a big cheers sophie and a tiny little cheers to baby daisy and a big set out a baby Jesus and, last but not least, a shot out to Martha in parts are known crazy. How,

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eighteen year old, Anna Maria phelps had recently moved in with her boyfriend, clint lauer in virginia beach, Anna Maria had frosted blonde hair and a penchant for blue eyeliner, she loved the band poison. I dont get it twisted sister, but that's not the only crime of this at the while she had returned home to Emily. This is located southwest of rich men to visit her, family for the labour day holiday week and she was accompanied by Daniel lauer. This is clinics brother. They were. Driving back to virginia beach together Daniel was having to move in with his brother and Anna maria to help them with their rent and to live near the beach. Apparently they both had jobs this cup.

but they I believe they made minimum wage at the time so paying the rent was a struggle and the brother wanted to live near the beach. It's kind of a win win for all involved, so Daniel had packed up his car with all of his thin they said goodbye to Anna Maria family, who had worn them just before the two pulled off to lock their car doors into drive safely. Now they left eleven fifteen p m on labour day Monday september. Fourth, nineteen. Eighty nine, this a two hour drive east to virginia beach? Anna maria and Daniel never showed up at their apartment and virginia beach. Clint. The brother called his mom to tell her that they hadn't showed up as expected, and she filed the missing. Persons were or around five. Thirty p m: the next day a state trooper spotted Daniels gold nineteenth

when he too chevy nova in the west bound rest stop along. I sixty four in new can't, which is odd because their heading east, yes, I sixty four is a one thousand mile made highway running between missouri and virginia. This rest stop between Men and williamsburg is in the wrong direction. The couple should have been driving east. The rest stop is thirty miles, north west of the colonial parkway. This rest up had a rip reputation at time as a meeting spot for drug deals, an hookups the abandoned car was on the lean leading onto the highway from the rest. Stop so picture this. The car is basically half on half off of the road. It's almost blocking traffic. The trooper was about to have it toad from the rest. Stop when a radio check linked the key are to a couple that was reported missing earlier that day. This being the

that we have already discussed now. Anna Maria S, purse and clothing were found inside the vehicle. as was all of daniel stuff, but Anna Anna maria wall? It was missing, as was a blanket of Daniel. A feathered marijuana, roach clip was hanging on the partially, open driver side window now, like clipped onto the window, yeah. It was later identified as belonging to Anna Maria. The key was still in the egg. Can one door was locked, the other wasn't the car had plenty of gas. I believe it was reported that it had three quarters of a tank of gas full tank, gas and seem to be working just fine, so there is no reason for them to abandon the vehicle. Some reports say that the glove compartment was open,

There was no evidence of a struggle. The car just seem to have been left there, for whatever reason there were sightings of the pair, and this took place, both east and west bound of where the two where the vehicle was found, but these sites, it lead nowhere now, I heard an investigator interviewed he stated: look we we did have a lot of people say that they saw them after we found the vehicle. The problem with this was, he said, look this area at the time There is a lot a party in going on there been a lot of kids their age in this area travel? to or from Virginia beat light. So these I witnesses to the sod different set of people in it in, according to this investigator, he says, look date, me. They look like just any other. Look a lot well,

he says look, they look to me just like any other kids of that age. At that time. He's yours I understand that the right you could easily mistake anybody for being these two. Now they set up a search. Ok, police dogs were unable to pick up a scent of either of the missing into jewels and they searched the surrounding areas. This turned up nothing or immediately investigators began drawing comparisons to the disappearance of keith and sandy. Eighty months earlier and thirty five miles to the south about a mile. After all, our and phelps went missing. Larry mccann profiles in special agent with the state police bureau of investigation, told reporters. There was quote a vow. a good chance that the recent cases were related a story. In the daily press. In october of nineteen. Eighty nine mentioned each of the four case

that are now known collectively as cloning parkway martyrs, but neither their bodies are can be found. Unlike the last well the issue here. Captain is it's not until october nineteenth. This is when the bodies are by hunters, walking along an old secluded Logging road found the two sets of human skeletal remains, and I would add, area this- is about a quarter mile off of court house road bear. A mile north of the exit off of I sixty four, the bar these lay side by side and they were covered by a blanket later identified as the one that was missing from the car, Anna Maria locket necklace, was lying on the trail whether she had left it. There is some kind of signal, some kind of you know breadcrumb or the killer had dumped at their. We don't know

interesting thing. Here, though, is captain, while the lock it was found on the trail, the necklace itself was was never found them because there is so much time that pass their bodies are going to be pretty Thirdly, decomposed yeah we're looking at a period of what forty five days so These remains were found about a mile from the rest area, where the car was found. State police sent for crime scene texts into medical examiners to this It was pouring rain all day long, so the local fire department pitched in and helped out they put up a canopy above the bones and they brought a generator to power electric lights used in the search. It was very muddy that day, one trooper slipped in a hole and and sank up to his knees and the crime scene specialist painstakingly dug in sifted through it until they found everything that they believe was left there, including the victims.

anger nails. They used several kinds of metal detectors that day and chemicals to detect bloodstains on the bushes signs were found to suggest that the murder site might have been. at the intersection of the logging road in the dirt lane, meaning that where they found the car are, is not where they were killed. More likely where the bodies were found is very close to where its believed that they had been killed. The victims car had we up underneath of it that matched those at the believed. Murder, scene investigators concluded that the killer must have driven it to the dump. I'm sorry driven it to dump the bodies and then had parted in the rest area, going the wrong direction from where the two victims were heading

Strangely, Anna Maria was found wearing Dennis Daniel socks and shoes. So this is very weird right. There, there partially their partially stripped, but she's in his socks and shoes somebody is one investigator, had always wondered that several of the victims being found without their shoes on if that was some kind of form of control. You know that that one of the not only having them partially undressed or all the way undressed but have them removed their shoes and maybe their shoes. First. That way, if they take off running it, can be and comfortable run out in these areas. With no shoes on you might be, you might be slowed and your attempt to escape the killer, then used Daniels blanket to cover the bodies. For my understanding, the bodies were covered up to the neck air

yeah the bodies were left outside for, like six weeks badly decomposed. As you have said, they were I d defied through dental records. It took about two days for this process and in the course of those two days Law enforcement. They were kind enough to reach out to both families and they said. Look. We think that this is who we found. We ve already found the vehicle and we think that we found your two loved ones. We wanted you to hear from us first, but we cannot confirm that until the dental records come back, they didn't want the family to hear on the news and not from them, the bodies were sent to smithsonian institution national museum for natural history in Washington DC, so forensic anthropologists could look for hints at the cause of death, the best they could do,

was to identify a nick and one of Anna Maria s finger boats, potentially a defensive wound from from a knife attack once the bodies were recover, It was undeniable in the minds of many people that Virginia had a cereal killer on the loose the fbi and the state police held a joint press conference. In july of ninety ninety declaring that there was a possibility that the cases were connected all related in asking the public for help. Now the cases captain we're all different. Obviously, but there are, they are similar enough that there are some patterns and connections between them. So, let's about the similarities and differences in these murders. So, first have all four were couples, or at least appeared to be couples. We know that big, kathy were dating. We don't know.

there. They were targeted because they were saying sex couple or not, but it is past the killer didn't realize that until he had all He begun his attack. It was very dark along the parkway at night, Cathy and Becky were inside a dark car. Presumably the killer looking to prey on couples may have assumed that they were. In fact, man woman, Becky's hair at the time was on the shorter side. So perhaps the extreme viciousness of this attack because the killer was angry, that they were two women were when, when he had been looking for a guy and a girl, several people close to the victim's strongly suspect that David and Robin were hooking up that night said the second couple yeah, and we know that, according to some reports out there that robin had had sex recently before she was found, and then we have key and sandy who were on a first date. If you want to call it that,

and finally, we have daniel and anna Maria who were driving together to virginia beach. They weren't a couple, but you know there's much speck relations that perhaps they had stopped along the parkway or stopped at some point, maybe having something to do with the roach clip that was later found, and so we have, situation here, where all four situations would appear to be couples. Yes, now the first couple were going to find them inside the car. Second couple we find outside the car third couple: we do not find at our fourth couple we find roughly about six weeks later and a distance away from the car that we find another similarity. All of these cases involved cars. Many of the cars were left

with open doors and or open windows, and some reported to have had the glove boxes opened right which again I I think I think this is when a play both sides of the fence here, possibly because the first martyr being so sloppy and that that they probably had reports sand that this possibly could be law enforcement or possibly could be a park ranger. This possibly could be some pretending to be. That could be something that the killer uses to set them up. The second couple, the third come on the fourth couple, because individual, is moving the car and so have that individuals moving the car he's the one that's leaving the door open he's, possibly the one that is rolling down the window, he's the one that's possibly ah, opening up the glove box he's the one that's possibly taking,

a wallet or something and put it on the dash to make it. Look like this, this personal stock in these individuals is law enforcement right. We want to go as so far to believe that he sophisticated enough to move the vehicle and stage the vehicle. Then we should think that he sophisticated enough to stage these other things at the crime scene at the vehicle, one. The reason why I have a get filling that those are stage because if who are posing as law enforcement me if you are posing as a park, ranger something that is your way to get these people to your victims to drop their guard right. So, if you're said he I mean like so, if you're using that to get people to drop our guard, then don't you think when he moved the car you roll up the window, shut the glow,

Box put their wallets somewhere else well, yeah, because you don't want law enforcement warning future potential victims of this approach that hey look I'll for somebody pretending to be law enforcement, pulling people over or approaching vehicles the third sector. already that we should know here is none of the cases involved any signs of a struggle, the cars were largely undisturbed, with the exception of the first attack. The exception to this is the other situation in the first attack of kathy having hair in her hand, which I think we should assume to be the perpetrators. As the f b, I has not said that it was Becky's or her

own hair. So this means that the killer somehow controlled the victims enough to get them out of their cars without actually attacking them. Inside of the vehicles in three of the crimes, the victims clothing items were found inside the cars Cathy Mbeki were found to be fully clothe first couple, but the rest were either only partially clothes or in the case of Keith and sandy. We Don'T- we don't know widow ring but boot, but we do have pieces of their clothing found in the car quite a bit a piece of clothing, so we can assume that their only partially clothe wherever they went, and I wonder because with the fourth couple and not beyond find them for six weeks. I wonder if I wonder if the third couple, the killer buried, maybe a shallow grave and with the search we ve, never fear

on them, and so therefore, that's why he did it possibly bury the fourth couple, and this left amount covered it with a blanket. My other question would be how far from the water are. They because we saw with the second attack it. It looks to me my speculation is with the second attack. Did he tempt was to throw the bodies in the water and for whatever reason they washed ashore and in the third attack we have no bodies. I wonder if the killer was successful in placing them in the water and the tides took them away. so another similarity. All the crimes happened within sixty miles of one another ragged I in the eye. Sixty four rest stop are each about thirty miles away in different directions from the central murders on the colonial parkway. The crimes all took place

on a weekend in two of them took place on a holiday week in three of crimes were in september or october, and one of them was in April, so all of them took place in either fall or spring none at winter or summer and all took place at night time. Yeah. You then makes you wonder, is this some killer? Does he have some kind of job that they get holiday time, and all of the victims were young, we should consider that as well, Cathy being the oldest at twenty seven years of age now- and I was listing out the similarities in the differences between the crimes- okay, so that has listed at seven b similarities in these crimes. In my opinion, there was one that the is tricky there

is one that doesn't really end up on either list as being a similarity or difference, and that is the one that is the reported so often in this crime that I think we should take a look at take a new look at it for a second, because one that most people consider to be a similarity amongst all More of these crimes. Is that the general conception is it there's no m o there, no motive, I'm sorry, not emma. There's no motive in these crops being that there's no signs of sexual assault and there's no signs of robbery,

well, let's go back on that real quick, be as the first couple. We know where lesbians, but there is no sexual assault there. The second couple we do know that robin edwards had sex with somebody before her murder. The third couple cassandras never found so we don't know if there was sexual assault, attempted or not, and then the fourth couple we got such bad de composition that we can't even tell if if there was a sexual assault or not, so we can't rule that out as a possible motive. No, we absolutely cannot and that's why. I don't think you can put that as a similarity saying that there is no obvious motive either. One of these situations, when you do a little fir digging here. Let's talk about the the case of robin and David. Ok, the reports are that we know

but the report usually says we know that robin had sex shortly before she was killed and when say shortly. Who knows exactly what that means? Ok, as far as timeline goes us say, that means within a few hours, well, I'm I don't even need to speculate, because one thing that I found was: we have an investigator now he's going off of memory, but he worked that case angle, off of memory. When asked about the city, asian of robin having had sex beforehand and wondering if that was with David or could it be possibly did she was raped. He said in this interview, you know and then take him to keep this in mind. This is hearsay. This is him recalling this, maybe twenty five years after the case after he investigated, but he says duty is regulation.

Election they were working under the assumption that robin was raped and potentially sodomized as well, so that makes that clear, eight one big giant motive in that particular cakes. Then we have another situation Anna Maria and Daniel wasn't the fourth couple correct and one thing that is often not reported in this situation- is daniel, had gotten paid about. Eight hundred dollars over the course of that weaken its believed that when they took off for that trip back to that apartment, but he had the eight hundred dollars cash on him. This was never recovered from the vehicle or from his belongings. So we have a potential that there might have been a motive for robbery, and this particular case now or to such an amount that the killer does

I'm here from others will take it now for the differences. The most obvious is the ammo being different. In each case, we have a strangulation, a throat cutting this, the Becky and cathy case. First couple, reading with David and robin second couple a suspected said, having an anna maria and Daniel, that's the fourth cattle and and known disappearance of keith and sandy another good one. I can a wonder this because in the second couple, robin she's only fourteen

So I wonder of the motive if it was sexual base sexually base that the first couple he he goes. Ok, here's a lesbian couple. Maybe there was now this possibly could be the first attack. So we have a situation where some aid gets a handful of hair and was that enough, yell of a deterrent to stop the sexual assault, thereby were then we're saying that that's not the motive while because they weren't sexually assaulted, but then we have this situation with the second couple with robin and her being fourteen and being young, and you know I'm just gonna put that put it out there. I know it sounds a little sick, but maybe that's not what.

Maybe this killer sees David and goes a twenty year old ban and then, when it gets to the car, sees robin and she's young and that's not the type individual, not the tat type of sexual assault that he won't. He doesn't want to sexually saw the fourteen year old, he does

but that's not his type right, and then you have this situation with the third couple. You keep on coroner sandy rape right. Her full name is cassandra and her name was Cassandra and I was sandy, you have, she was a model and she was a gymnast. I believe she taught gymnastics. Yes, is it possible that after the second couple, he finds this very attractive woman and he wants to spend more time with her and he brings her somewhere else? Read that's why we never found her orb richard a difference and other possible difference is the actual locations and now cavity. My say this weird, you kind of included a similar thing on both of your list. Both sides a year less, but I think one

could argue it either way, while all the crimes happen within sixty miles within sixty miles of one another, you can argue that its similar location- however, you could make the argument that look, two of them to the cars found on the parkway one is found on. I sixty four and the other on ragged island, where they're all with sixty miles one another but could be considered much different locations. But sixty miles is not a huge radius for a stock, want to learn a new language. This year, razetta stone, makes it easy to get started and they'll create a learning plan for you that keeps you on track. Razetta stone has the export and lay learning for thirty years, helping millions of people build the fur lindsey and confidence to speak new languages. Rosetta stone offers

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the, Alright, we're back cheers. Everybody excited than amana. Captain soup knows well look One of parkway murders fell under different law enforcement jurisdictions. To this day, the families of these victims cite the lack of communication and cooperation among the various departments investigating. So this is seen as a major stumbling block? It's it's tough. When its separate entities investigating this being federal state and local, the families were so dissatisfied with the hair. killing of the cases there in nineteen eighty nine, a few of them. Banded too, other, along with families of victims, in other unsolved murders in the area to obtain twelve thousand

signatures to require law enforcement. To revert to renew the investigations into the murders on the parkway and in the tide, water, virginia region, they formed a group. called fact family and friends against crime. Today this was to push law enforcement to work together to fight now what had happened to their loved ones. The members went to them and wrote to congressmen and senators complaining that the police weren't, taking seriously the possibility that All of the crimes were linked. The f b, I said, ninety ninety- that its agents had spent thousands of hours trying to solve the two federal cases that they were working had met frequently with local law enforcement agencies to discuss the cases that these cases are difficult, though, to because they d seen like very random acts for random

acts of murder. That's why I wanted to take the time and go through the similarities in the differences between the cases, because I think it's it's a weird set of circumstance in my opinion, you have enough things pointing that they are connected, that there are enough similarities that there is a pattern that they are connected, but equally you have enough things pointing out that they could. He completely unrelated to one another, and you can see this with long island, serial killer, a lot of people think that some are connected in some manner and then possibly there's two killers so as that is that a situation that we might I have here well, I don't think we should come down too hard on law enforcement regarding these cases that we discussed, because one that I found throughout this was the the lack of consensus about whether

for crimes were related at all in this coming from both investigators and the families of these victims as well, where do you stand on the possibility of these being connected ooh that that's a complicated answer? My friend, I think I'd like to this, is what I found an usually when I have a hard time coming up with answers. On my own, I like to just defer to people closer to the case and what I found in this city nation, is that you have, depending on you talk to other, be law enforcement or family members of the victims. You have some people that think that just one case is different than the other, or did you know some The cases are kept connected and others are not like, for example, the David and robin case local authorities are clung to yes low,

while authorities are convinced that the pair was executed by someone they know so, and Other people think that the three cases in which involved the heterosexual couples- They are all linked, but Cathy and Becky's the first couple, the lesbian couple that their violent killing seemed more personable. So it's not you they possibly were targeted and are not linked to the other cases right, because they their claims, that normally when somebody tries to burn the body that normally assigned that they knew the individual here's, the their thing, and this is really interesting, and this thought seems to be aired by families and law enforcement. They note that sir. for all of the victims should have been nowhere near the place where they were found. Ok, I think that's important, with the exception of the first couple, its belief that the

There are three cases that those people would have been nowhere near where they were eventually found, so some long men officials believe that may be the park way and rest stops are just being grounds for different killers and that their actually no connection at all the fbi. in charge in fbi in charge of the case the eighties and early nineties. His name's robert meadows said the problem was that none of them knew what to look for. He stated quote if you think about it, which is worse, a serial killer or for separate killers size that cereal she thought I said please my whole story went away Dan. I love that close to Robert meadow said the problem is that none of them were sure what to look for stating quote if you think about it, which is worse, a serial killer or We're separate killers running around out there and we don't know

Any of them are right, and so this is very similar to the texas killing fields, possibly whereas just a dumping ground exactly the tough thing here, those that europe now dumping only couples but you're dumping their vehicle as well, and that becomes a different problem and so in three other cases, you'd dumping of la possibly dumping vehicle grant, which makes it mary somewhere again. That view of there's three random sets a bodies.

dumped somewhere along this area. That makes little more sense once you throw in the car scenario, that's a lot more time and effort somebody's going to have to get somebody to pick them up, or we would at least seen some eye witnesses. That said, hey the night that these people went missing. We saw this guy walking on the side of the road or whatever it was. Here's. The thought, though, too, is it such a big deal that they're not working to Where did the law enforcement agencies are working together? Here's my thought, meaning whether their related or not, as long they are being worked. If, in fact, it turns out that it is the work of one serial killer, then, if you solve one likely you solve some of the others or all of them right. As long as they're being worked and worked good, while we have this hair from the first couple, and we think that these cases are connected. This is something that's gonna have to be answered pretty quickly, because if we do have this dna

As we know, with all these other cases, a lot of people are taken, these cold case files taken dna and there have an m tested with ancestry, so we're gonna get within a spectrum within cousins within aunts and uncles of possibly, the murder of this first couple, because we have that dna evidence now you can't figure out. Does this individual have alibis for those other couples? Are you gonna be able to get him to confess to those if they are connected well and here's the thing, I think the biggest factor that has contributed to the failure to solve any or all of these crimes is that the crime scenes were compromised, evidence has been lost damaged, or destroy you know- and we know in the first case that the park rangers smashed out the back window of Cathy's car. We have some other examples to there.

stories. Coming from family members did say in keep in mind will keep will take this with the grain of salt, because these are hurt loved ones of victims, but there are stories that have come from family members that say that at least one of the vehicles was toad back to the family and given back to the family, and it was never processed and in fact that later, when they came to take fingerprints from inside of the, inside of David struck. This is days and days later that they took the prince and then later the father finds the fingerprint cards out in the front line right that they They didn't, for whatever reason, bring them back the lab or where were they were intended to take these things right in these cases have been called for a while, and I dont think their frustration was from the beginning, but I think

because the fbi was doing a lecture, and somebody made these these crime scene photos public during this lecture. I believe those two thousand eight so that everything can a reserve since then well. That was because the fbi had egg on its face and it needed to to. reassure the families that they are going to make good on this and that they are going to work these there, too, federal cases until they're solved yeah, and I think they make announce to the public where reopening omen signing new people to them, but they also throw they threw a local and park ranger kind of under the bus he's the one that I think expose them.

because he was at the lecture. Well, okay, so the way this goes down is in october of two thousand and eight. This is at a law enforcement training school in hampton the school had in old, f b. I slide show of crime. Scenes from the colonial parkway murders, so the schools owner the schools not run by the fbi. The schools owner ass this guy named fred at well, who was a former deputy, share to speak at a few classes regarding the murders at well was very familiar with the cases. So, while he's there to speak to the classes at well saw that crime scene, foe, were being used in this training programme, so for how long we don't know, but the were seventy eight images that feature detailed, color shots of the cars club box, open wallets out.

Clothes in the back seat. There were also pictures of the victims, shot strangled slashed so out well called the fbi to report that the act case photos were being used in a public form the yeah, I didn't really respond in the manner that, while wanted him to so he contacted a local tv station which then later publicized the leak, okay, so Investigation revealed that the f b I- and this was an f b. I photographer had taken a duplicate set of slides or retiring in two thousand and one, and he became an instructor. At this hampton law enforcement school and he was using them for training purposes, would say you have to use stuff like this, but I assume that there be using cases that are one none of the area, but two cases that are solved

well and before we even get to that, we have the situation of the rangers finding the vehicle and then then the father meaning the vehicle. Later we already discussed that one law again the rangers face, but we also we have compromised crime, seems to the point. Remember they find the lost vehicle and jogger later later finds the bodies or finds the body. So what does that mean? They didn't. Rope off the crime scene enough they allowed jogger to go jogging through the crime scene to find body, and then we have a situation that took place in ninety ninety four now I do know that we have said that there were no signs of sexual assault regarding cathy and Becky's case, the first set of murders, but there were raped kits that were inducted in that investigation, for whatever reason, instead of them ending up back at the fbi's office, they ended up at the Warrick county sheriff's department to which once they are

it's made known to them. Have your rape kits ended up here, the f b I sent a fax your county ordering them to destroy the rape kits, so even if their You know, even though there is no signs of sexual assault. Let's say that there was. We don't know for certain that there was, or was not all these years later, maybe that could have led to something. Maybe we could have gained some evidence from those old rape, kids, so the first couple is murdered and eighty six second couple and eighty seven third couple. Eighty eight then than last couple or the fourth couple and eighty nine, so I obeyed thought. That's one stop, but there is another case that happen and ninety ninety six, that is very similar to the first murder

in an eighty six well in this connection is made from man by the name of steve, spin, gola, okay, so steve spin gola is a retired detective and he is an investigative journalist at some point. Some of the victims families got together and started asking him for help he came to some interesting conclusions. He wrote a magazine article title predators on the parkway summarizing his findings in investigation. Among these things he revealed that cigarette butts were found at the first murder scene and that the rope used in the first murders the rope there was found on the victims, neck tested, positive for brine or foresee water. He also revealed that they had found a no and Anna maria phelps handwriting, indicating that shit the plan to meet someone in a blue van at the rest stop- and this is the fourth fourth couple correct now: prob We, the most surprising of spin goal as conclusions was that he believed it

cases were likely not all related. He did ever link cathy and Becky's. The first murder case to a ninety ninety, so murder of a lesbian couple elsewhere in virginia so as things work complicated enough. This was the double of julian Williams and law winds which took place in virginia's shannon, our national park in june of ninety six How far this was it's a three to four hour drive from the colonial parkway area lore was a college student and juliet just graduated with the degree and non geology they were in a same ex relationship. They were on a camping trip. Both were considered to be experienced hikers. They were found at their campsite just off of a senior rail on skyline, DR bound.

And gagged, with their own clothing naked and their throats were cut. The killer had used duct tape and it is believed that he brought the duct tape with them with him, lore is gone. Retriever taj was found unharmed and near by this case remains unsolved, and the fbi has said likely that they believe there are substantial similarities between this case and that of the first martyrs back in nineteen. Eighty six and you wonder if it's some kind of anniversary, killing. So you asked earlier if I thought that they are related if there were connected, I think what you approach it in this manner here, captain we do I have a lot of investigators that, by into the serial killer theory and the ones that

they have an established, a profile of their likely killer and they state that he would be a caucasian mail. He was likely in his twenties or early thirties and made to late eighties he is of average or above average intelligence. He has good social skills, lived with a partner owned a vehicle and possibly had begun undergoing some kind of stress that inspired the crimes he probably committed. The crimes in his probably committed other crimes in his youth, such as setting fires, killing animals and so on, and the pattern escalated as he got old. He bees is becoming more violent as he gets older. They also state that he, very organise that he brought his weapons along with him. He controlled his victims before killing them. were mutilated or molested. The bodies concealed the corpses, or at least attempted to

and waited for long periods of time before striking again. Finally, this killer exhibited great self control were raining from taunting law enforcement with letters are clues. Like the son of SAM or the zodiac killer, he, his killings show that he has, or was refining his craft and evolving. He got more efficient and less messy with each of these. Murders it was even possible that he was deliberately changing up his ammo to keep investigators guessing several of the investigators leave that there is a strong possibility that the killer was actually to people operating as a team. Now, for the fun part cap, and we get to throw some individuals under the bus people they have been considered suspects throughout the course of these invest nations now. I do want to keep in mind. Everybody keep a mine. There's been like a hundred and thirty two hundred and fifty suspects, depending on which report you read obviously we're not going to go through all of them, but

we'll go through some of the more noteworthy ones right. So, first, we I have in this is in no particular order right, this kind of random order. First, we have fred ass, well, gay, as you might recall, fred it out. Well, was the deputy who discovered that the fbi's crime scene photos had been released. He has a check. History. He had two burglary convictions and had bounced from one local law enforcement role to another. Apparently, background checks warrant thing when they were hiring these officers. In any event, at well- was a deputy at the gloucester county, sheriffs department, which was apparently to have employed some questionable characters at the time of the murders after the crime scene photo photo debacle at well inserted himself into the park way,

cases per finding the families and trying to act as a go between with his supposed law enforcement connections. Eventually at will true character emerge and he was arrested in thousand eleven for fraud for stealing money that he had raised in a phoney car raffle on the praetor of contributing the money to the colonial parkway victims fund late that year he was arrested again for robbing a woman at gunpoint at well admitted that he had been looked at as a suspect, possible suspect in the crime. But he is vehemently denied any involvement. He claims The fbi labelled him a suspect as retaliation for his public disclosure of the leaked crimes. Photos yeah or the fact that european ship for trying to raise money for dead people on the knee

Still the money of pretty shady can look into year after that fred at well. Well, you can feel safe and oh good, somewhat, to know the fred outweigh or legal safe. He remains in prison for the fraud charges in the robbery. Conviction He is scheduled to be released in two thousand and twenty. Then we have rights, donald little but hold on the the problem with fred is the fact that he would they would have they would have collected his dna, and I think, if the f b, I really thought fred was an a suspect. They would be testing the dna they found on the hair and the first martyrs ronald little was a thirty two year old convicted. And from new zealand, who somehow managed to hide his criminal record and gain entry into the united states. its. He ended up in the newport news area and worked as a private investigator. He had owned in

paraded a security company that provided security for local businesses. He had permits to carry guns, liberty, security, employed law enforcement officers as security guards, so liberties Security is his company are right and their employing law enforcement officers as some of their security guards. This is not an uncommon practice. This included fred out well for one. Furthermore, liberty has some strange connections to the parkway cases and that being robbed, Robin Edwards is mother Bonnie. She was part of the second murder case. She worked at liberty, security, one point and I believe she worked there at the time of the martyrs, terry Hayley. This is sandyseal Mr David, a man named Steve black men who worked at liberty, security. We will talk more about steve and a little

but in nineteen, eighty eight wrong little sent out letters to congressmen and local politicians and the media saying that he had been he was being railroaded by the f b I for the parkway cases. Specifically, he stated that he was being targeted as a suspect in the killings of Robin edwards and david nobler. He also said that the f b I had looked at him for the Keith and sandy appearance now. The weird thing about this is he sending out all these letters according to law enforcement and according to the f b, I they never had looked at this guy, they didn't know what he was talking about. Maybe he wanted to be looked at. Take a peek well take a peek behind the curtain He, the officials denied that he was a suspect in any of the crimes, but little was taken into custody in may of nineteen. Eighty nine. So here he also on her way. Okay hold on before you get to those. They also want her. Somebody just messing with the

I call them a oh yeah yeah like this, the f b I where, where he has set up a pitch, well, that's interest. that you bring that up. I never thought about that, but knowing what I know about this the visual. It's likely that he had enemies. You know somebody might one of that wanted to have met with them. We do have to keep in mind he was eventually rested in this was in may of nineteen, eighty nine, so he could not be responsible, for Anna maria in and Daniels killing, ok, he was out walking around by the time. The fourth case went down again. I assume that if the f b, I think that earth a suspect in this case there testing your dna yeah it well this thing came about. I dont know of his dna ever would have been tested because he wasn't rested in the traditional sense. Remember he was from new zealand and he checked

and got into the united states by lying that he did not have a criminal background, cheers mates right. So they figure out that he's really a criminal who got into our country, so they deported him, so they ship them back so to speak and then the killing stopped. Ok, I said that we would talk about steve black men. See black men is a disgraced ex police okay, who kept getting into trouble and moved around from branch to branch of various local law enforcement entities in this area of Virginia, including the newport news pd, where he was held a position for nine years. I know so many disc disgrace: bankers that have been transferred from on branch to another branch. Well, he was also later employed by the gloucester county, sheriffs department and, according to some, says who have knowledge of the situation. I I've. I found this quote very interesting. Ok, they say

Black men was a bad guy involved in drugs under age, girls and general thuggery thuggery, yeah, black men moonlighted as a security guard for liberty, security. Remember they have some ties to a couple of these murders and His body was wrong little. He also dated terry Hayley. This was one of the victims sisters. Ok reports are also out there that his, His family own property along the James river, near the parkway, meaning he was familiar with the area and had access to a home base near two of the killing yeah. Maybe we should search his property law when moved away from the area in nineteen. Eighty, nine and the parkway killings had stopped. He ended getting hired as a sheriffs deputy in florence county south carolina. Ninety ninety: this is where he

shot two men and killed them who broke into some reports say his home. Some reports say his father's home or year was that ninety ninety He shot them eleven times now he was fired after the incident because they figured out the cocaine was found in his system during the course of the shootings hello, drug. He was indicted for double murder and underwent a psychiatric evaluation. He did serve some time. I don't have that right from May I believe it? He only served a few years, because it's possible they were able to prove that these individuals actually broke into the home

from what I could find. I would think about this or you're you're at home, right hm you're high as a kite minding your own, damn business to sun sons, a bitches break into your house. You shoot them, they touch for drugs, then they send you to jail, They hey unprotected myself and I'm protecting my home. It is matter if I'm drunk or not officer. I think this is one of those guys they had a always had a suspicion of him he was using his badge and using his power to help get him drugs and girls, and some of might have been under age and he was involved in trade. Guns, stealing guns dealing with bribery is all kinds of stuff, and I think when this goes down. This is so logic that they could probably nail him on and let's ok, let's get him. That's fire him

and let's get him behind bars, even if it is for a short period of time. I try to low, where this guy was now, I'm sure somebody better than me could do it like. I said I think he only served a few years and I believe that he would be out of prison now why any would have been out of prison and time too, if the ninety ninety six martyr is connected to these, he would have been out in time to commit those as well. Well, here's yes and here's the thought too! I think surrounding steve black men and also possibly ronald little. They were very close and I think the thought is that there is suspicion surrounding both of them. I think the thought here is that these two may have committed these crimes to get and that, even though wrong little was locked. It was deported nineteen. Eighty nine before the eighty nine killings that potentially the two of em cook could have

did the earlier ones together and they may be Steve. Black men committed the last one without the help of ronald little colliding ye it's an interesting character. He was a ranger patrolling the colonial parkway during the time of the murders. Parkway victim's family sources have learned that ye had violent and seas and head sexually harassed women by pulling them over on the parkway. Of women had filed complaints against him for harassment involving an appropriate comments. What makes ye interesting is that he was transferred out of the park

area area to the shenandoah national park where he was stationed at ninety. Ninety six. This is for the ninety six killings. So, after that he was transferred out again and he was involved in a very controversial case where he manufactured evidence and acted in appropriately in an investigation of indian trade trading post maintained by the national service yede ye reportedly passed a polygraph about whether he had any involvement in the parkway murders. But he is Urban ruled out as a possible suspect he's, we because I've seen reports with this say he's been rolled out because of this polygraph. The thing I want to point out here is There are a lot of stories. They include clyde ye as being one of the first responders to the first murder scene. And remember where we said it, it's unclear which ranger broke

the window on the hatch back to gain access to the vehicle. There are some people that think that clyde ye was that individual it may be, is on the surface. It looks like hey, I'm trying to help the situation but boom. I'm also contaminating the crime scene at the same time, for something that I may have been involved in rain, so he's weird, because you can place him in the area of the park way at the time of the two parkway martyrs. And then you could place him as working in the area of the shannon doha martyrs that took place in ninety six. So in his car kazan. He yes and he is Furthermore, ranger radio he would have at a billy did ability to poor people over to approach cars? He would have a visa would have gone on him. So right, but again, if you move

these vehicles. Why not just take the time to shut the glove boxer? Why not roll up the window? What I'd take the time to do that right, ray? I see what you're saying he would only technically be connected to three of these patents lee five double homicides. In my opinion, then we have another interesting guide. This is dear old. the rice there are stronger, he's a former peter programmer who pled guilty and ninety ninety eight to an abduction charge in which he was accused of verbally and physically assaulted. Female bicyclist and the shenandoah national park she avoided being forced into his truck. She states he was going to try to kill me when she fleas him. He tries to runner over with his truck investing it later discovered hand in

egg restraints inside rice's vehicle, he was sent to a hundred and thirty six months in prison on that conviction. while in prison. He made comments that could be seen as implicating himself. In the ninety. Ninety six double murder of julian and laura and the national park. He was known to frequent the park as a biker and hiker, and in fact this is interesting about David darrell, David rice. Ok, he may be guilty of, one of these crimes and here's. Why? Because there was videotape, there was videotape evidence of him having entered the park on the days that The martyrs were committed and ninety ninety six a grand jury indicted him for those murders, but he was eventually freed because on

male dna on hairs found on the duct tape binding. The victims did not match rice's dna. So now, if we have this hair, can we please tested against the the first crime scene from ten years prior well, here's the thing that I want to be clear on this. Ninety ninety: six: double homicide. In my opinion, this this evidence, this hair found on the tape, does not exclude him ages. I just causes it causes problems with getting him can Baked it. So he does remain remain a strong suspect. In that case, rice was cleared for the colonial parkway murders, Oh investigators would not disclose why or how he was ruled out, but they may have. His dna, like you said, and if they have nay from one or more of the crime scene. Maybe this is how they were, to rule him out, one more suspect, Michael nick, allow

so he's a strong suspect behind lived in charlottesville junior around the time of the crimes, where he was an undercover officer. This is for these charlottesville pity for four appeared in time. Nikola is the main suspect in the connecticut, river valley killings as well and suspected in the disappearance of his first wife. He killed himself in full what I, after having murdered his second wife and his step daughter, there's not allow. of information tying this guy to these actual cases other than this. Is a known martyr that lived in the air. at the time and he's also suspected and another string of murders that took place not too far away to humming suspects. We have in this land different reports that the

ports vary, but I've seen as little as a hundred and thirty two as many as a hundred and fifty so does men in that there's freaks everywhere, so locked doors be safe, don't get murdered. Couple theories, though here captain we ve talked about you know, could have been all over the shop with the theories ro, the coverage of these cases, but one that I want to mention is there is one so called theory that I find extremely interesting- and this is the water men theory, this theory d, largely because of one the locations of the murders were all near waterways and to the diesel fuel that was found at the first murder scene. Diesel fuel not being super com, and so some experts have been led to believe that diesel fuel, which is used primarily to use in lahti,

is the power boats was something that the killer had happened to have with him when he committed that first set of murders and travelling by boat would also explain how the killer would manage to escape without being seen on walking on the on the parkway or risk leaving his car somewhere else. While he killed his victims and then return to it. This too could mean that it were. It was two men working together travelling by boat to and from these different crises, and one thing to back that up is in the field. Set of murders. They were strongly looking at this waterman theory. and we know that law enforcement and f b, I they surveyed waterman in the area, they were looking for what they said were two men fitting what they thought they were. Looking for, okay, one thing that they found at the first crime scene. Was they state that nautical line

found in the hair of one of the victim re. One of the victims was in the navy right. Well, she didn't. She had been discharge from the navy. At that point, was a stockbroker so there's a couple of other theories in this kind of revolves around then the time frame of these murders? Okay, and when these times of when these crimes took place and the thought being that it could a federal employee, because we have murders that took place two on the weekend and two right before or just after a long holiday can somebody there would have been working in the area and would not have had to have had their time accounted for during the course of those four murders. For you, too, this theory. Then you have to believe that the ninety six double homicide in the park was not well.

Aid or linked to the first four double homicide cases, and why they have to believe that. Well, I guess that you don't have to believe It I'm just going off of the theory here is that it was a federal employ based off of the dates, the likely dates of when these first for homicides double hulls were committed right in them. The one- and I am the one and ninety six We don't know exactly what day they were killed on the this camping trip was quite extensive one and in two like I said, I guess you don't have to that they weren't involved in the ninety six, where this thing It originates based off of the first four double homicides. Bill? Basing the idea of this theory around the murders having taken place on a weekend or just before, just after a weekend there some thought in a theory out there

This. The perpetrator may have been a william and Mary college student because all of these dates line up with the college calendar, the william and Mary college calendar, meaning the person wouldn't have been class or wouldn't have had class the following day. The other thing to that interesting about that is the first four murders take place within a four year time span, which would be we considered by many to be the average than the average stay of an a town college student. So the thought here being the college It moves into the area for whatever reason kills during the course of their time. William and mary and then after the fine killing graduates away in either side. Killing in another city at some point or it a pair of college students that once they are time away from you, know

It's done with one another that they stop killing altogether. So what your final thoughts on the colonial parkway murders super fascinating. This is one that has always intrigued me, and I am, I look at it a little different, each time as to whether they are connected or not. I think the problem here is that they're not can did. I actually think that that might be more of the issue, and I think that there I don't want to see their they're all separate cases. I think there's a chance that water two or three of them might be somehow linked. But I think that there are cases in here that are different and the ones that the look different to me the second double homicide where we have the possible motive of rape of the female victim. I think that that presents a whole new variable that we don't weapon. As will the add that we

see and the other crimes. I think that the local police theory there might be somewhat correct. Their thought is that somebody they knew got them out of the vehicle and shot them, meaning they, I have been there to meet somebody, and we have David's father who Said time and time again, look this ragged I'll This was a place known for teenage to hang out do drugs to purchase drugs. There is some thought that may be the two of them hey. I pick up this girl that are barely now. Let's go out to this island with party. Let's have a really good time right, and the thought here is that Maybe they made a phone call to somebody to purchase some drug, hey meet me out on ragged island and for ever reason that thing turned wrong there. there's one individual in particular, and the police haven't really released.

A lot of information on this individual, because this speculation, but there is a guy that they refer to as drug dealer in rapist, washington. Ok, they think that he is a possible very strong suspect in that second double homicide. He somehow knew the female victim and It was rumoured that he had told somebody that he wanted to the he wanted to raper and he might wanted to rape and kill her. There was a witness that lead law enforcement to this guy. That we only know, as quote drug dealer and rapist Washington, but the local police theory is that this washing guy shows up on ragged island to sell drugs, and when he's ere. He decides he's going to rape the victim and it turns into a situation where he has to shoot the

female victim and the male victim execution style. Okay. So it's interesting that there is a strong suspect Now the witness that lead local police to this guy conveniently or this washington guy, this eye witnesses, it no longer around he's dead, and then we have a situation where, with the fourth homicide, the fourth double homicide, there was a suspect in this case, in his name is Joe. If god see Joseph god, see new the male victim and may have known the female victims, but its believed the gods, knew that the male victim would have eight hundred dollars cash on him at that time and that God sea had somehow either intercept these two individuals that were traveling or had met up with them at the rest, stop took them out into the woods and killed them there and then dumped the car near the rest. Stop. So,

I think we have a situation here where a couple these cases might not in fact be linked, and I think that the argument in the squabble of them having been linked or not being linked back and forth back and forth. I think that that has been a major stumbling block in it. In these cases and I think the interesting thing in all these cases that that the reason why people link them so much and it's hard to not want to link them is cause. It always seemed like it's like a traffic stop. Their cars are always left in some disarray of a traffic stop yeah, and I think with this one, maybe if one of these are solved soon. I wouldn't be surprised, don't don't jump to the conclusion that if one case out of this series is solved soon, that the rest are going to follow right behind?

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