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Welcomes the true crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing, thanks for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me, as always, is the man running for mayor of parts unknown, reminding you to get out rock the boat? He is the captain I'll be kiss and wives since makin baby could be seen. to see you then, for listen. Thanks for town afresh. tonight we are drinking tucker, been brewing. Companies, pale ale out of conway new Hampshire garage, great three and a half bottle caps out of five. This is there Flagship paleo, brood, with four types of hops disproves cold candy, and in dry hopped in logging. Tanks for maximum taste and quality in this great pelayo was brought to us by these great guys and girls first step

We have can from Waterloo ontario canada, oh yeah just go with her terrible tao, all the way in pittsburgh. Next we have barb in Dallas texas, who says she is glad she found the garage because she, tired of running around with lesser true crime. Pod wealth he's throw in some shade big kelsey and buffalo grove illinois and a big thank you to colony and beautiful huntington, beach, california, and light but not least, the big shot out, and thank you to Bobby and his better have Aubrey and tracy California so think offer, fill up the fridge for this week. If you want to be around for next week, show go to true prime garage dot, com and click the donor, but, unlike nick said, I'm runnin, fur mare and governor senator and president, El Presidente, EL capitan of parts unknown you like to be a resident of parts, are known. Go to your website, go to the store and check out the new,

parts unknown teachers and that a two week pre order. You got two weeks starting right now, so go to the website and get that done today. All right, let's get in the garage, we're back fuckin with true prime author, James runner and maggie the beautiful maggie and the beautiful art the hosts of oxygen, the disappearance of morrow Murray aye, captain there enough of your propaganda and enough of the business everybody the round grab a cheer grab rear. Let's talk some true cried both for the captain, the one of the I love about this documentary, the disappearance of, is the host maggie and are asking the tough questions there. Tough questions, tough questions, tough questions of to the family. Ass can tough questions to podcasters to too

sir james runner and one of the themes of james from the beginning. You ve always been canna suspicious of the family, but we don't really know how would act of this happened to us or one of our love now we see that but like I've got two kids and if, if my daughter, when missing, When, however book, oh god, Yeah she's isn't morbid joke the right not to work out ever want to write, but, like I would hundred percent, I would open the door come in here. You know. Look Our family look through our internet search history. You know everything. You know that need to in order to find this. This person, this kid right now again height We say we don't know how he would act, but there would be, nothing, I wouldn't do right why? The other question, too is: do you not for bank was open that night or that day on that monday,

well, I all I know she went up to the atm and she was able to. She had like two hundred close to three dollars in her account. She took out two hundred and eighty and people get all like up in a tizzy about that data. They're like while she didn't withdraw all of her money and you shouldn't say she withdraw drew all of her money because that's untrue. Well, yeah. She kept of sixteen doll, and there you write and wasn't why so question whether or not fred gave her the four thousand dollars a mini claims. He did. It but that's a big question. You know what happened to that four thousand dollars, because even she disappears and how much money does it take to disappearing a new life. Well, if she only had two hundred eighty dollars, that's one thing, but maybe she two hundred navy, plus the four thousand plus her hurseton lend money. That monday or the week before that,

might have even been that day that Monday she disappeared might have been the day that they released the hold on student loans funds. So she could have taken an extra forty, five thousand dollars on top. So now, instead of two and an eighty we're dealing with, maybe she disappeared with more like ten thousand dollars now, but where is she again Money from the student loan money: well, you get. Once you get student loans, you can apply for a certain amount of money that over above your in a room and bore, and I did that go, I lived off of student loans, for I think you know two years we all offer I'm still paying path, so you know I think it's possible that that's what she did is wait until she could withdraw those funds and they they keep a whole.

vomit until like a a global weeks into this master, or do we have a record of her withdrawing though nothin's? Not I mean, maybe the police. Do I ve never seen any sort of record. It's just speculation. We do know that she had student loans so just thinking out loud. Why would the? Why would the father give his daughter for grand. big kick has made like now. We all believe that he's holding back something right Maybe it is all by the way I did for this money, and I wasn't her to run away and in trouble in trouble for credit card fraud. Is it to pay back somebody that she was somebody else. Somebody else here that she had she credit another credit card and had chee run up more than just seventy dollars worth the peter, and I wish you paying that person off. That's speculation. You know it was. It was money to see her to get away from college and set up.

Someplace else I don't know, I don't know it just weird so that the other question I have is. This is not an Andy kaufman story, you know, there's no. I think Andy Kaufman still alive tail. That's another story all other episode, pedestrian ex book right There's no evidence of her. The image and try to take her death right and left. unless re right. It wasn't like you. I see what you're saying well think about this. If she hadn't have guns, it's the accident on route, one twelve and I I do think that that was an accident like. I don't think it was some people, while did she stage it for disp? No, I don't think so. I so let's say she hadn't come into that accident and she just left her car in a parking lot somewhere.

there may be even with a a note or something, and nobody outside of the Murray family would have ever heard about this story and- and you know the ci, maybe you could have left a note and said you know I I took off I'm sorry, you no good but I think the accident changed everything you know. Let's say she's going up there to start a new life to disappear, do something she gets in that accident. She s on the police to show up right now, cause that's nice she's in a lot of trouble. What is she doing their their catching her halfway through? Whatever her plan was? oh you know, let me get this car, that's being driven by this acquaintance and we're going to take off, and maybe the police to leave the car there and we can come back for it. Nope up the police took it out crowded. Now we gotta leave the car. Now it looks like now it looks like a possible crime, and so we gotta be hush hush

about everything. From from now on you, no no, no letters to you, know friends or family, explaining what I was doing up here. Yeah, it's just her and one maybe it to other people that have to be quiet right and that's kind of your theory. One on her friends may be that they're, I don't know for sure I just I just the only thing I feel one hundred percent on is that there is a tandem drive for in that tanner driver with somebody that she knew in a friend or family. I tend to you know, maybe lean sixty forty sixty per cent towards it being friend or friends. While I like that you He said that though, because what am I I'm, not costly, defending you But what I, what I was telling you this earlier, that the one of my favorite things about ah being able to you know call you a true crime friend is that you put out this amazing book that I bet once a week. Somebody tells me

this is the best book that maybe have ever read, which I think is a great compliment. That's awesome cause I hate when some would say so best true crime book but but that you said that the only We think that you're super. Allowed on one hundred percent on is that there was a tandem driver yeah, and I think what were a lot of people are kind of. The funny thing is a lot of people say that you're tunnel vision but then I think that they become tunnel vision on you, the they do they do and I think, to some extent, there's this need on the internet and social media to to choose sides and ends in general, just to choose a side right and I and and you get you delve into the more murray case- and you end up on you- know specific facebook pages and reddit pages, where

for whatever reason they decided to turn me into a kind of the pad guy, the pad journalists and and then that one of the first things they reading. They want to be a part of that community, so they have to like not like james either. But if you, if you spend some, I'm with me. You know another know there, people from red it that came up to crime con last year and they hung out and got a book. And you know I had a drink. You know some snacks at the bar. Whatever you know, within five as of now hanging out right, you know- and it almost makes me cringe, but you know the lean forward and they'll say you know: you're not you're, not and you're, not as much of an ass, was a high you over a little ass of we all are but not as much as neck. See this weird thing that I've never understood with, and it's not if everybody in the true crime community, but with a market so well, there's other kay

out there that are similar to this, where there, where there are people that they they take aside. Like said, they believe in a theory and if they decide if they disagree with your theory for some reason they ve decided. They don't like you as a person. I don't know how that leap is made, you know we ve, had it happen on our show where people comment there, like nick, you said that it probably went like this. Are you some kind of idiot just dislike? Well, why Norma, That dress is interesting. Yes, I am some kind of an idiot, but I like that said that you know that's the only thing that you, one hundred percent, because I think a lot of times when you bring up the, I see or the the belief that you think that she's alive I'm now heard you say I a hundred percent believe that she's alive no and no, of course not an you know with the ten m dreamer thing I you know Will it what happened after that is, is a mystery? Did she go onto another life, a lot of people, think I'm

hold on this idea that she's in canada- and you know hanging children in eden, crepes and right and you know, haven't babies, and that would be nice. I want to believe that, but there is also the possibility that whoever if the driver was killed, her right, yeah, I'm very open to that possibility, but if you're theory that she left on purpose any life? If that theory is wrong? You say in this. I bet that world sure I'm tonia one another that that theories wrong. What's the next theory that you'd lean towards it, that the tandem driver, via its did, the team driver, was responsible for her in a did, she hid her head. harder than we than we know and did she did she pass out and they freaked out and she became comatose or somethin silly like that

or did you know where she trailing up there with the boy friend right, not v boyfriend, but ah boyfriend aid voice friend, and that person was the one that after that accident, you know, killed her or you know the suit Yes, I'm I'm very much open to that. You know when I started looking into the case. The first thing I after you know what pediatric bother things, I'm gone to your blog, and so then two kids, much of my information about the case from your blog chair and then to call you. an area or more on. Let us make zero, so I know a you know in these people that set up websites or or other podcast, not timid, lances, but other podcast. On this true, because there are a couple more for and that- and you know they did yeah that's what they do. They're like I have james or no such an eel is such a jerk, a here's here, ten documents, the teams.

Posted on his website that might help us figure out what happened to more murray, yeah you're. Welcome thanks, I think yeah. I think people should just give you a little more credit for that. I'm in you know I dunno obsessed. I was obsessed with this case. There are other cases that that I get personally involved in, but I've got a life. I think now I've known you are here with us on a sunday, there is nowhere. You have allowed This is in my life, is mp in people seem to think this is I it's frustrating in us for me, and you know, I don't know how you guys are, but two at a point you just have to walk away. and not like, because eighty percent of the commons will be positive, but you fix it- those twenty percent. One thing I liked, when you set up your blog, was you it wasn't just you.

Forming an opinion and telling your version of what you think went down with mara, but you set up a place for people to check out new information and for people to come back to you with information yazzi, hey james. I found this. You should consider putting it on your blog, yet it This grand idea. I had to open the internet and turn it into a century- the writers room of a newspaper. You know when I worked at seen magazine up in cleveland we'd. Had this writers, room and I'd read these two crime stories and we'd gather in the writers' room, nine pitch out ideas am I what about this? Guy is a suspect, and you know the other right. would come back. Why have you looked this nurse and it was a new way to gather information, but also and to find new avenues of investigation and to use crowd sourcing to try to solve these cases now. The way I pictured going down was

if you ve ever seen mickey mouse in the sorcerer's apprentice. You know where he's learning from this grand wizard and you know he- you know he goes up and tries to use the magic. Well, I have this grand ideas. And an end to a crowd sourcing platform and everybody would be sociable and and fight for the greater good in and help each other out, but it got out of control and people were not nice to each other, and people were not nice to me. and people when names were considered as suspects people would go. and try to shame them instead of. Realizing that just because their name is mentioned as a possible suspect in the are a possible suspect, doesn't mean they're guilty and they shouldn't be held and, as we still have a quarter of law. For that reason, you know, let's not consider somebody guilty in the hood. They've had their day in court, but that went out the window, and I realized that this grand experiment that I had and it just won't work in

The way our culture and society set up- and that was very upsetting and very sad- and now that the blog. I turn off the comments, because people are just people just mean: do each other right now and I I think, doesn't get us any closer to the truth. It doesn't and and- and I want to hope that it's a phase and that we'll look back. thus in twenty years and or like. Oh, my god that was the deep dark days of the people being me each other in twitter and facebook. But I dont see an end to it now. You know I I was involved in a community he online community years ago. Regarding a specific case. and people would log on there and give their opinions on different pieces of evidence or theories that they had and it it got very messy very quickly it it it spun out of control and thing where posters are now accusing one of not one another of being the actual murder, no yeah,

it I got so weird and strange and their yeah yeah. I know The only way to fix it is to get in an empty right, and but nobody can be for that because they have they want to be anonymous, speak because yeah. They may have their daily routine of being an accountant somewhere in there. They had to fall everybody's rules, but They can log on as poop shoot, sixty nine You know at random my best birds and tell you everything, you're doing wrong in, and you know that you're that maybe the police It look into you and in a stupid stuff like that. I why I think people also forget on these allowed. These shows that you're they at it you No it's a site that you your same before, like he talked a man for a really long time and then what they put on the show is an edited version of that and they might eventually go back to that interview. Yes, but one of the

that you talked about the show was the witness accounts, and I wondered that when you, when you guys, have gone to these places and looked for how many people don't recognize the picture that you're showing them is it a bunch of, primary yeah. Oh ninety, nine point: nine percent, ok! So it's it's always a very smart. How many people would say have said. I know her two or three monkeys a very smart varies and the people that that leave they saw. Her are adamant. Like this- and I think I hope eventually in the dark series we'll get to see her but there's this employee that worked at the record store up and and montreal. I think- and she was one hundred per cent she's like no doubt about it. That was her. So you know people say they're the

substantiated sightings, but that there are very good unsubstantiated sightings, but you only it might not be her now, there's a lesser known story it within the morrow murray case, and I want you to tell it for us because I pull the strings your book and was one of the more you know. There is a lot of interesting points in there, but this one stood out for me a little bit it's the wooden and forgive me if I am I bring this up wrong. But when you were looking into the case, there was a hit on her, social security number or or hit on something, and Living like a shopping, cart yeah to em in eared, hit non two different stories. Ok, so real quick! and then I get because I think another one year going for it. dramatic, but there was the

I ran her social security number I got ahead, took me d sacco mean, and that turned out to be one of the searchers that was working with more with Fred Murray after more disappeared, and any said he Can I put a flag on more social security number so that linked his address since acca main two, more so So when I ran at it popped up so that was kind of easily explained. Although its took out a weird rife, the shopping card is interesting and I think I get knowing the documentary series might go there, because these they showed at last night oak, I'm inside the car they're, like oh, hey, look shopping card now and one of the people that go to the the website these these. You know that when I was crowdsourcing it somebody read it and they they were able to get the exact number off the back of that shopping.

Hard find the grocery store and run it through their loyalty programme system and it popped up. More is information and also an email address, that email address wasn't linked to Maura. It was linked to a guy named richard thousand lives in cleveland, ohio and works as a nurse. So I reach out to richard- and I say, hey man your. What did your email, pops up on more murray's shopping card and murmurs? This woman had disappeared and in india amherst, and he tells me the story about how he visited the the university met. This young woman, whom he thinks was Maura and they had a lunch together and then she's. She must have stolen his card, his loyalty card to get like cheap gas.

Something- and I might well more net- is known for stealing cards. That makes a little sense, so I put them Information up online and people right away, poked holes in it, and he got back to me and he said, hey look. I made that story up and the the the real truth is that, yes, I was at umass amherst, just for a couple of days for a car, France- and I, when I heard about the more murray case, I became a little obsessed with it and found Her shopping, cart, information and put I e mail in it. So I would get some more information from about that card. I'm so man talk about red flags right, you now here lately, so so he just repeat that yeah, it's weird so he puts in his information. While this is the last story, he told me, you know he lied about the first story. He says so I don't know what the truth is and what's not but the story.

he settled on was that he was starting to be at the same time, is more but not going to school at you mass, but visited you mass for a couple days for what was the reason: a crime, a conference there. Something was happening down there and, he said they might have cross pass, but he's not sure so came back to cleveland and then, when more goes missing he's like oh, I remember you masses there at the same time any starts getting obsessed with the case file. Sir shopping cart info puts in his email address. In order to open up the other information, as it says, in order to access, you have to put an email address right, so he gets his link with her shopping, cart and it's weird right leg, everything about it in the skies. fact that you lied before exactly ass? It even weirder and he's living up in cleveland for and I've visited. The

I haven't gotten there, but we ve talked on the phone lives by himself and I talked to the neighbors. Nobody has seen a young woman up there, but he it's really hard these days, that to have social media right and not be able to find a picture of somebody, there are no pictures of the sky anywhere on social media on the internet. That was some information that the cold case unit was really interested in and I have a feeling they'd probably have talked to him or tried to talk to him, but they certainly wanted all the information I had about that guy. Oh yeah! Well, next, on social media much it's kind of hard to find you I can find pictures does as I've said, because I postal and run There are clear, sir, why, earlier?

I love to photoshop us now. So that's a lot of fun. Oh right right! The coordinates sent to TIM and lance will just throw that out. There talk about it. but coronets were sent to me original. They were sent to you. Ok, that's why we're that's! Why we're here that's all day they did they love to take credit, for I don't know they they did. I I was drinking after watching several football games and watching the you mentioned the same to me, those gather we had so much fun, it crime gone and this this convention get caught. I did so much below a timid, lance, it's just joking joking. What about these? Gordon earlier as there is an unfortunate you were were sent in just this email. That said, stop looking and the subject. More mary was in their somehow, and I would just these coordinates and alleged leads you to part the white mountains. This

desolation trail. You have to go to to get up there and it's like a five hour hike, both as I was never able to make it work, but it does look you look the trailer. Furthermore, Murray yeah series their high king and some I'm guessing they do. track down. There's a hornets play an idea. What they found up there is a got a little scared, an arm we ve done. Had our share of odd emails, as you have this this case as well, but on I am more on the side that whatever is gonna happen. Happen anyway. So whether I go on that train or not right, I don't really have a lot of luck with the fact that they're like well we're You scared a girl like come on. You gotta, do it even the you got to follow through with that, and I think they finally do might

hunches that it's nothing but an internet trolls that wanted to like fear, shit and giggles just wanted them to their time your waste, the time wasted, waste, ten hours, an impasse. We here in the hall, that's why they sent it to you. I I I know that europe is ass. All the way this is now thanks, but was was, did the person use a handle, this to you. It was the email is redirected through the netherlands through some sort of re mailing email thing they get there. We are those has that e mails connected to MAR murray's fuel parks, combat perfect Now that's teheran to hurt him orton! Yes, royalty, cardiac, ok, james! So the book has been out for a while now and you ve had a chance to participate in this. You series where you at currently with your theory? I eyebrow

and as of this moment as of today and two thousand and seventeen october, second right or is it the first? Yet it is the first anyways- and I would put my probability at sixty percent cheese out there alive somewhere, trying to stay off the grid. Maybe Canada and and forty percent that she was murdered by whoever this tandem driver was. Do you have of suspects, you, like more of the tandem driver, yeah, it's one of four or five people. Yeah and I'm not gonna, go into it specifically how many or men? How many are women too, of a man Three of them are women. Let's take us

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The disappearance of Maura Murray now do you guys have a hunch on where you think amare was heading to that night. We you know she was taking a break for some reason, but where do you think she was heading to? I think that renner is accurate in that there was somebody else involved, probably and whether she was going to meet a friend or somebody I personally, don't think that she was going alone and there could have been a tandem driver like a friend or somebody. I don't think it was a tandem driver and somebody helping her escape. I think they were just going to clear her head. She bought enough booze for two people and I I

that there was possibly somebody going with her to just spend the weekend. Hang out take a break. She had all intentions on coming back. I agree with you. I think you know. You've got five or six theories, and just you see us map them and one of the episode yap survive yeah. None of those none of those are completely off the table until we can actually find her or her and remains so. But we looked at the probability of what is what is more than the equally happened to you're and more than likely, you know someone there was foul play involved in what happened to her now, whether with somebody she knows, if somebody that picked her up on the highway. That's the big.

That's the big question, you know what happened in that seven to ten minutes time period, which we probably even narrowed down to like shorter than that. But you know what happened in that time, for why do you think, in certain cases, especially in this case, that we have evidence that you are? cover, and then people look at it objectively and they say well, no, that's! That's not true, even though you've backed up that evidence I have no idea why people she's not to believe is absolutely in family but I know that, even though we know even with this, we do know that, if someone hold, I didn't have evidence

what info each time you know. I understand why people say: okay, she's open to saying that the. How does he believe him? And I guess that I get that people want the evidence, but it's hard. We we didn't know this would happen. We didn't know to the extent of how a Really intense people are about believing that this yeah, an interstate gary yeah people love conspiracies. But, as you talked to anybody in law enforcement, it's almost impossible to keep a conspiracy together, sooner or later somebody's going to talk. In this particular case I mean when we did the timing. When we looked at witness a when we drove the same route,

She did when we interviewed cecil smith is pretty clear that even without you no other type, absolutely it was him just the timing of it. It had to be him, and you know he said he was in the car, and you know it for us that whole conspiracy theory right now. You know people are wasting their time spent in their wheels on that with some other cruiser there. That's just not the case I mean if it's really going to be embarrassing when it does come out and the information is able to be out there that this is the people have really exhausted themselves. On this bunk theory, we are trying to tell you that this. This is not the case like if you don't want to

was fine, but if you're going to look silly- and you know even people, even if we had a video of the whole thing, they probably still wouldn't believe it. No no you're going to have that. You know that portion of people that aren't going to believe it regardless what we say, but I'll tell you why, in a way, I think renner is even more respectable than some of these people that think they're, more respectable than renner, because renner is is looking at the evidence and the facts and saying okay, Maybe maybe maybe I'd also think my period right anymore. He has enough you no dignity, say. Okay, I might have the wrong way. I wrote a book of others and it could be wrong and that person's way more respectable, then

It is not in and it'll tell you what? Obviously I'm coming from the law enforcement side, the frustration that law enforcement has I mean in it goes to a lot of stuff. I mean you talked to law enforcement is a tough job right now, or especially uniform law enforcement and, and unfortunately, we kind of go through these cycles, every twenty twenty five years, we're in one of those cycles right now and people for some reason want to believe that law enforcement is is bad whatever reason I mean it, it feeds something in their their ego or in their minds, and I mean when you sit and spend an hour and a half with each one of these police officers, as we did a listen, I've done internal investigations, internal actually reported to me when I was a us marshals, and I can tell you that you can tell when somebody's not telling you the truth and or or something doesn't pass the smell test, and I can tell you that every

thing that we uncovered here from the law enforcement side. There wasn't anything where you know the hair on the back of my neck stood up. It was just like the simplest explanation is generally the explanation and that's what we found one of my favorite parts of the dock, entry, was that you guys did the drive that mara had made that night before the accident. Is there any observations? or things it occurred to you that didn't make it on camera. I think I think they the condition of more as car right baggy. We just that whole experiment with a rag in this tale pipe

I we actually drove the car around. You know we bought a saturn that was the same year and and knocked out one of the cylinders on it, and and did the experiment in the garage with a rag in the tailpipe, and then they actually drove that vehicle around and and more than likely, even though we did what we did to it, this car was probably in a lot better shape than morris was in maggie. You drove one of those same vehicles when you were at umass right. I did. I had an l four. She had a ninety six yeah it. You know, we, I think the our time discrepancy always kind of puzzled. Us

Um, you know: did she leave right away after she went to the liquor store? Did she stop somewhere? Did somebody see her? You know, I'm always that I'm a yeah when you, when you go to the liquor store and the atm they're pretty much right next to each other. When you go to the liquor, store or diner directly across the street, and we always used to go there Often the liquor store, where the diner studies in america it in so many times, but I always thought that she had left the liquor store and I met somebody at the diner got once and that person knows where she was an opening to one of the shows maggie. You state that the local seem to think that more was abducted. How do you feel that after meeting with the local people and does that tell us anything about the area loud, that's my came from John smith. Am I don't? I don't think it made? It even has interview that. Aren't you were there for that, in view of John Smith said, you know

I've been up here all this time and there were some really bad people up here and he, you know, a guy that came from John smith said that the people up there are often not that savory and and do I think that it was a local yeah. Probably I do, I think, like Beginning people go up there to be away from everybody and whether that, just in other ways would you like to lead, or you have had a really bad past and you can't be in a place where you know you're in the city. Against people all the time. People know who you are. You you're going there to hide out and live a really private life non episode. Five. You literally put all five theories.

at the table. You end up crossing them all out, except for one, but I mean I think we. We both believe that foul play get. This foul play involved that she was. She was killed either by accident or by on purpose, or you know somebody had an intention to kill killer or some some something occurred by accident, either by an unknown person and and he

You know when you look at these cases and- and you do a lot of investigations generally- that if it's somebody or that the victim knows you're going to come to a conclusion fairly quickly. In other words, the case is easier to solve than if it's somebody that has no connection at all to the victim, and you know. Obviously this case has been going on for thirteen years, it's a cold case, and I always kind of look at it. That cheese I mean this. The state police, the local police, have spent thousands of hours investigating this case they've conducted grand juries? Investigative grand juries have put a lot of time, effort and energy. I mean even when we came up with a couple of leads the next day they were on it. So it just seems to me that they've investigated to the best of their ability. You know even they'll get you know wish we wish we had done. This differ that different, but the were. But but you know

it was done intentionally. There was no mouse, anything they did, they did the best shot they tried to do, and that leads me to believe that its very possibly somebody did she doesn't know because Those are the hardest crimes to solve. So if she were abducted or if she got into a vehicle willingly. This is just minutes after she turned down the ride from butch atwood. Why would why would it go down like that? I think that it's possible. She said no to bush art think that this that bush declared he was called the factory. He worked for the government and the county angeles, and she saw him as like an employee, and he didn't want to be involved with the police. That kind of thing, I honestly think it could be as simple as bush

stupid. Luckily, you know if you're, just judging based on appearance as me, even sad, you mean he's this old, overweight man with a moustache. He could have stared her. I mean he's just some guy up there, like I don't know if I would get in a bus with him I'm, but I think it could have just been some young guy in the area. There's a lot of them that we have found that have been in jail for rape, sexual assault, like horrible horrible things that just said hey

yeah, I'm going to this party, you, okay, you want to get in a in she. She might have trusted him more and we have heard from family members have more. I had hitchhiked in the past. Who did we hear that from art yeah? We heard it from a high school friends yeah that she had hitchhiked and that didn't make it in the show. But that's the us says: okay, maybe this young guy pulls up hambone to a party. You want to come sure. You know what one of the things I looked at too was that she was under probation at the time. Was it for the pizza incident at umass and I think that that I'm, you know if she got arrested for for operating under the influence if she was drinking in the car? I know this is all speculation, but to me it kind of makes sense that that she would want you know, bush pulls up and says I'll call, nine one one. She says no,

I've called aaa. He knows, that's a lie. He goes to his house and called nine or more and of course, the westerns indies across the street are calling nine. We wanted the time so you know, did you want to avoid avoid law enforcement? I would say yes because she probably probably would have either been in trouble you know how easy for operating under, but it could have put in jeopardy her nursing school to that she was going through it. You yeah yeah, so my that I believe that should be a person of interest. Was the track coachhouse, supposedly or allegedly, I should have an affair with, but this doesn't come up in the show

it was one of the things that aren't night. I'm you know where, where I was saying how renner had a lot of good information that he came up with and we would say, where'd this information come and it was rendered. The other day we were talking and someone had sent me an email talking about Haas and we have tried calling him he he wouldn't talk to us, I'm you know so we we couldn't really talk about it in the show. But I'm afterwards, someone sent me an email, my called art and said hey what was at the hot like this. Did this really get looked like that the police? In Him where it is always come from and a hoss wasn't even known about until ventnor uncovered that whole thing. So once again, that was runner I don't know, I don't know, we don't really know what his alibi was the way forward.

I don't know what his alibi was, but you know a and b. These are. These are questions that law enforcement when you ask them are going to are going to hold back on and. because I think we might have asked and he can't we can't answer yeah yeah we did and I'm a you know we didn't get it. We didn't get an answer from him, so this is obviously something they're looking at and we can. There re looking at everything. One thing that I've got to know: can you tell us if perchance would add a c b radio in the school bus so yeah. We ask that question. I'm and I don't know I'm we. We tried to actually find out more about that particular bus. We actually tried to get a photograph of yeah and we couldn't come when we tried to. I think we tried to track it

down at some point. I want someone tried to track it now, but my understanding is when he called nine one one he did it from his house. He laughed went to his house, called nine one one and somehow got kinda screwed up or it went to a different dispatch. It didn't go to Grafton county, I think it went to hand over dispatch and then hanover dispatch kind of related to grasp and county in wrath county actually ended up, calling back the residents and you You bring up a very good point because you got it. You, you sort of, have to put all this together. Now you got I been on nine one one. You got butch atwood, stopping his boss parking cards calling nine. When one you have the murat around the corner, who also have some visual contact with this accident. And then you ve got witness, say all this is occurring sort of in ten or fifteen minutes timeframe.

Guy, obviously cecil smith, showing up so you when you put on together and look at that time way, which we did it kind of all make sense. The big indifferent question here is How could somebody turn their hidden she's gone and like seven to ten minutes that that's that's always been the big Should you have all these things going on it I mean a lot of them- are like real, real important data points because we have logs, you know we ve got to go encountering logs and we found out some information about that it did. They came out. I don't know, I made it in the interview or not I'm, but we also have that whole jurisdictional fight that so some mm that somebody reported to thought it was law enforcement. It wasn't law enforcement, it was to tow truck drivers, arguing about who had the the money for the talk you know. So we

We have put a lot of stuff to rest and when you sit down and look at it, it's like it makes sense holy shit. It is just makes sense, it's the simplistic nation, then I can bring him back even yeah. he's even like, sat around again over a bottle of tito's being like okay. What, if which is lying, what if she got in the bus with him and then when he went into that search for people, he you know, dropped her body somewhere or something happens like we have sat there and said: is that possible? But then we look back at the logs, the west I saw her after the bus left and right am I correct in saying that aren't the way I think it was because that was the flurry of the activity at the rear and the marauders longer. So so, even the thought of her getting in his face just didn't happen. She would have had to walk

over to the house, and you- and you mentioned the two people and a man with a cigarette and and that's that kinda like has been sort of an argument between the two westerns as to what each one of them saw a mister western thinks he saw the light from a cell phone trying to be activated. I'm in mrs western, I think, wasn't really sure exactly what heck she saw. So I mean that's been questioned too. I'm one of the crazy things about this case is that cell phone service there was no cell phone service up in these white mountains, and I think it's hard for some of us to believe is that factual, like when you are up there investigating? There is no cell phone service at la to this day. It is yeah, it's crazy, because I think you lose cell phone service. The minute you kind of get out of woodville

right, meg, yeah yeah, and then you pick it back up at beaver pond, which is it that is kind of another ten eleven miles from the crash site heading towards lincoln. Now there is one particular item that the police have received a lot of criticism about, and this is regarding the atm footage where mara had stopped to make a withdraw now, one time that I have had on this. Why they have not release this footage and that's a criticism that they ve got, that they have not released it. Is it either that this footage does not exist or that they had it in their possession at one time, but but it may have been lost well what we can say a thing of the past. The hold tight tell us. This fact is that the reason they have released it is because if there are ways I visited me, why

they haven't released that and if there was anybody in that video with her, that was not at all related for her a license plate number if somebody's car- and they didn't want all of these people who latched onto insane theories. She would, you know, think this person was the killer or tracked down the license. Plate number- and you know these people that are just happened to be in this video. I'm could go after them, so yeah. I think that yeah, I think that had it it needs to be protected and I think that's really a good move and to protect the innocent people who would be in that video and other than that it'll have to wait till episode six. I made it to one of the problems with his cases,

Ebay has any information or any connection is being I mean we had a lot of problems talking to people. People had to get familiar with us because a lot of people wrong information has been put out with a whole. You know put out.

Them, I'm so law enforcement. I know- and they reiterated with that to me today that they're just they don't want people innocent people harassed that have already been talked to by by law enforcement and really that's not the way to handle a criminal investigation. Put innocent people out there that don't have any association at all in mine had just been standing in the background, but you both feel confident in saying that a yes, the atm footage exist and b the police are in possession of it yeah. Yes, you have to wait till episode six one. Last question: do you believe that this case is solvable? I do yeah, I do too when it went. When I mean I, I would tell you this that we first maggie and I first talked to the state police

the a g's office. They believe this case is solvable and they have all the information. So if they believe it's solvable, I believe it's solvable maggie, believe it's solvable so and and yeah and I think a lot of it again. I know I sound like I'm coming hard at the police, conspiracy, people and, if not, that I don't think people should be talking. I just think they should focus our energy. You know somewhere else, but I don't even think it would have been this far if it weren't for people who really really care and are contacting the police with tangible, real information and people who have come to me with real information on some of these leaves that people have come forward. Just lately are really good, really good. They're really good, and I even touches him atlanta today said, guys. You know you ve been working on this a lot longer than me and our have you guys been this excited fer. You know this case to be solved, and they said nothing like this, not at all

though you know, I think, we're all really really hate it when we do think it will be found. A big thank you to james runner. If you haven't already go and check out his book, true crime, attic and a big thank you to our maggie. There were so kind to sit down and talk with us. Also you keep hearing, bout him and lance. They are too great guys. did a wonderful podcast. That was all bout, the more murray disappearance zone, a big thank you to those guys as well. Yes, a check out their podcast missing, mar Murray and the question from allow listeners is a age has covered this case. Yes, we ve covered this case before we talked to brenner. Wind, true chromatic came out and we actually covered this case and you can find those on our website store or the itunes store,

thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend. Thank you so much for sharing on social media, That means a world does again here, cause we gotta big case for next. We carried in next time, everybody out there be good, please be kind, and please don't litter this spring transform your outdoor space into

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