- Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick. And with me as always is a man with a microphone who can tell you what he loves the most. Here is the captain.

Call me the flavor-flave of true crime. It's good to be seen and it's good to see you. Today we are still sipping on this fine beer from Illinois called Devil's Paintless. Box. Brewed and canned by Tangled Roots Brewing Company, this is a hop forward west coast style IPA with Columbus, Cascade, Chinook and Citra hops, all smoothed out with citrus, orange and grapefruit for a perfectly balanced beer. ABB 6.66 percent garage grade three and three quarter bottle caps out of five. Big cheers and thank yous to our friends for helping us with this week's show. First up, a shout out to.

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Alpine Murders by Nick Edwards on Audible and Thank Me Later and Colonel that's enough of the business. Thank you Captain. Alright everybody, gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. The Starved Rock Murders case, the triple homicide case from the State Park of Starved Rock in Illinois has fascinated and intrigued so many people for over six decades now. Where we left off, we had walked... You through the investigation as it were March of 1960. And now we start off with April 1960. We're going to go to the 4th of April here, Captain. The report is we have state troops

And Conservation Department employees, they're back at the scene. They're back at the St. Louis Canyon. And they are doing a fine tooth combing of the canyon, looking for additional. Evidence because now we've had a situation where the snow has had an opportunity to melt away from the scene and They're hoping to find Of evidentiary value because what we have not found is what they're referring to as the sex maniac killer or killers involved in this case. An item of interest that is found on the 4th of April is inventory. Or red wool. And there are some red fibers that have or below the skin. I believe two have importance in this case. What I'm a little confused on with this item in our timeline is this...

Listed as red wool from the dress of one of the victims. But those red fibers that keep coming up in this case, I don't think they're going to be able to be used for that. Know if they are one in the same. This item on the fourth is simply reported as red wool from the dress of one of the victims. This leads us to another interesting part on the timeline. Five days later on the 9th, we have... Family members of one of the victims, Mrs. Oding, who they are rep- that her rings are missing. Remember we talked about motive, right? this a sexually motivated crime? Was this something else? Were they staged to make it look like it was a sexually motivated crime? The thought was if it was Wasn't sexual nature, could it have been a a robbery attempt or a botched ride? Here's where we have some evidence that it could be of that nature. We have these missing…

Valuable rings and jewelry from Mrs. Oding that's reported by the family. Some of the sources captain say that this was also reported by family. Of Mrs. Murphy as well. Let's go to the following day. We have restrictions are lifted so what this means... Is the St. Louis Canyon is now reopened to the public for the very first time since the victims were found on March 16th. Five days later on the 15th of April, we discovered... That the rings were not missing at all. The jewelry was not missing at all. Persons in Investigation come back and they say that we found those missing rings they were located in the gloves of the victims. We also have a report

From investigators at this time stating that the starved rock employees, employees of the lodge as well as scores of others in the surrounding area have all been fingerprinted. Also at this time we get a farmer who reports that he saw two Hitchhikers in the area around 4pm on the day in question, March 14. There is no... Follow up on that information, my guess is that they were not able to confirm who these people may have been. - And it's surprising to me that we, because we have so many different items at the crime scene, but we also have so many victims, it's surprising to me that they didn't get some kind of fingerprint evidence, so they-- contest against somebody. Yeah. And that's the thing here too. We talked about the fingernails scrapings from the victims being sent off for analysis. We also just discussed the.

Rings, the missing rings being found in the gloves of the victims. I think that that's a large part of this, how cold it was, the snow that's coming down. We know that at least two of the three victims were wearing gloves, it's also likely then it's not a big leap to think that our killers were wearing gloves. Maybe not to go undetected, but just simply because it was so cold outside. Right. So now you're going to have a lack of fingerprint evidence based off of that. This... Is where we talk about the gloves again. And this will end up being a very key part to this case. April 18th, samples of hair found in the women's hands. And we'll go through this. It's described as the women's hands, but it's a little more simple. Than that. A little more simple than that, I'm sorry. So one glove is analyzed...

By again this Eastman Kodiak company laboratory. They found eight Strands of brown hair in the hand of Mrs. Oding. They found eight strands of blonde hair on the glove of Mrs. Murphy. Investigators Have every reason to believe that this is the hairs of the killers and just that short based off of looking at these items from the naked eye using the just the naked eye 18 strand Of brown hair were found in the hand, clenched in the hands of Mrs. Oding and eight stars. Of blonde hair were found in the glove, on the glove of Mrs. Murphy. If these hairs... Are different from one another as described, then I would think the... Police would have been right with their initial assumption that we're looking for more than one perpetrator. Absolutely.

Area being opened back up to the public, you can now access the St. Louis Canyon. We do want to be clear here that the papers did point out while they they removed the fence and they opened up this general area to the general public, that they did continue to keep State troopers on hand to maintain guard in and around the star of rock state park. This is in large part because, one, we do know that sometimes the killers will return to the scene. We also have the situation where they've not figured out who has done this, who is responsible yet. And you talked about this in episode one, the level of terror that we had with this. General public. We got a boogeyman on the loose. We got a monster out there who has just killed three prominent women out in the open in broad daylight at a

State park. To get caught. - What we would later learn is that the murder investigation would continue for about eight months with no arrest at all, unfortunately. But during this time, it would become obvious that Chester Weager, one of the persons discussed in episode one, At some point during that eight months time, became the primary suspect in this case. Is questioned time and time again throughout that eight months on a regular basis. Has been a lot of debate over the years, over the decades, I should say, about

How much pressure was put on Chester Weager. And depending on who you talk to, there's varying degrees of what the police is... Investigation was and how it involved with Chester Weager. What we're going to bring to the Table today is the complete record of that. This is a matter of state record. So it can be Debated by whoever wants to debate it, by persons in bars, people at the county fair in Illinois. But this is what the state says per our records and this is has been reviewed time and time again over those decades. So this is considered... By the state of Illinois to be fact. Okay? So the complete record according to the state. On March 19th, 1960, Chester

Weiger, who we would later learn is prime suspect number one is interrogating. It for almost two hours. Now it's difficult for the captain and I to sit here and say that on the 19th of March, just one month after the murders, that he was prime suspect number one. But I think the state record will show you that they're honing in on this guy and the level of questioning and the amount of questioning with Mr. Weiger will fully disclose that at some point he does become the prime suspect. 24th, when Uyghur is again interrogated, this time for approximately one and a half hours. And this is interesting here captain because the reason why they are talking to him is in regard to something

he brought up to them when he spoke with them before. He had told them, look, you know, from The lodge where I'm working and where the ladies were staying. Yeah, it's like a mile to get there, but there's a shortcut. From the lodge to the St. Louis Canyon that I know about. This is where the bodies were found. I know about this shortcut because I often walk the woods. That says his entire life he enjoyed walking in the woods a lot of times by himself he found it to be Tranquil. There's a lot of people that do this type of hobby and find relaxation and a place... Clear your mind taking a nice walk he's saying there's a shortcut to this st louis canyon from the lodge

So in this hour and a half interview, interrogation, whatever you want to call it, they are specifically talking to him about this element of the investigation. Two days later, on the 26th, they spend an hour with Chester Weger in the canyon. Mr. Wieger then is taken back to his apartment after this Hour in the canyon where the investigators are asking him about his buck skin jacket. So described, I believe as a leather jacket at times or a suede jacket. Yeah, I believe that there was a eyewitness that claims to see a vehicle with some gentleman. And one matching this leather jacket description. I mean, it sticks out.

I mean, it just screams Bond Jovi. - Yes, it screams Blaze of Glory, Bond Jovi. And it's a... I don't know how unique it would be for the time, but I would describe this buckskin jacket as unique, right? It's got the the tassels They asked him about this jacket. He has No problems. Like he's very forthcoming and all the investigators say this. It's not like he's being disgruntled or he's not willing to answer their questions. Questions or show up for these interviews and interrogations, he meets them in the cannon, he shows them the shortcut, he takes them back to his apartment where he shows them the buckskin jacket. And as the captain points out, with a witness statement. The police are starting to believe that the killer could have been wearing a similar type of jacket At least someone who approached the women or were seen talking to some women was wearing

jacket on the day that the murders occurred. We do know at some point captain that they take samples they even like cut away pieces of this jacket and photograph this Jacket. I have to believe that this is when that occurred. Now let's go out almost a month later. April 20th. Chester Weiger was again questioned this time for about 12 hours. During the... Which time it's reported that he took six lie detector tests. This is according to the state. This is not according to Chester Weager. He took six lie detector. Test. The intensity of the investigation would put a strain on those who were investigating this case.

They also admitted that they wanted to put a strain on the persons that they thought might be responsible or persons that may Have information. And later people will come forward and say, who has a limited education, the strain on those subjects could be heightened, could possibly be heightened. Is interviewed again for 12 hours. During this time, he takes six lie detector tests. Anything. He never admits that he was there. He says he wasn't there. He said he's never killed anyone and nor is Charged by police with any offenses at this time. This will bring us to September 27th.

We have to introduce a man by the name of Deputy Dummett. He is working with the LaSalle County Sheriff's Office. He goes and he picks up Chester Weigert. He's been involved in this case from very early on, but it's the first time that his name is presented in our timeline. On the 27th of September, Chester Weiger has given several lie detector tests... The hours of 9 a.m. and please make mental note of this this is not an error of 9 a.m. and 1 a.m. Think about that amount of time. 9 a.m to 11 a.m that they are interviewing and giving several lie detector tests to this individual who's already we know has It's already been given the polygraph test six times. During this interview on the 27th of September...

Chester Weiger makes the following comments about the investigation. He would say that a man by the name of John Reed was there interrogating him. Who spent several hours of that interrogation pleading with Chester to confess. We know you did this, just tell us you did it, tell us the truth. He also says that he... John Reed threatened to give him... Truth serum, right? If you're not gonna tell us the truth, we can inject you with this truth serum and-- We're going to get the truth from you anyway. Chester Weigar says that at some point during this interrogation, he was instructed to answer yes to all questions in the lie detector test, the next lie detector test. That he would be taking, including those for which a yes would be an admission of guilt.

Mind we have to point out here this is Chester Uyghur's comments. The state recognizes those comments and has put them in this record. However, other persons there. We do not have them giving the same statements in regard to the interaction or what he was told or how he was treated on the 27th of September. On the same day, Chester Weger is driven to the LaSalle State's Attorney's Office after the lie detector test that he took earlier that day. The Assistant State's Attorney, this is Craig Armstrong. On the phone. The phrase you're going to ride the Thunderbolt.

You're going to ride the Thunderbolt. I think it was lightning bolt. Now let's go to mid-October 1960. The Illinois State Police, they decide that we are going to unleash 24-hour surveillance on Chester Weager. And it's reported in the state record that they maintained 24 hour surveillance on this individual. That's not cheap. Takes a lot of man hours. They maintained this 24 hour surveillance on him for four weeks, for a period of four weeks. That time state troopers drove Chester Uyghur to work and had pictures taken of him. This so that sentence is very important because what we would later learn is it wasn't like they were tailing him in trying to be super-

the next video. Part of their strategy. So for mid October to mid November, he's surveilled for 24 hours a day. This leads us to November 16th, 1960, when Chester Uyghur was questioned at length. So is This is the third time he's questioned. - So he's, I'm losing track here. - Now the fourth time. - He was originally interviewed like on the 17th. Very friendly, hey, we're interviewing everybody that works here. And that's the 17th of March, just days after they were killed. And then he's interviewed a handful of times and sometimes for a very lengthy period of time.

Over and over and over again in this eight months that follows. So he's. On the 16th this is going to lead us to November 17th at 2 a.m. when Chester Wieger finally breaks down and confesses, this time after about eight or so hours of questioning. And there's a lot more that goes into this too, as far as what has been reported over the years. But I wanted to point out what is... This is all agreed upon by the state. The state is not saying, No, we didn't do any of that. The state is saying, This is what we have in our records. This is what was reported to us by the persons involved, the authority figures involved. And this is what we recognize as fact.

So of course, once he confesses, this will lead to the arrest of Chester Weager. Now the part that's not so simple here is that He's also being threatened with being charged with other crimes. That are not related to the Starved Rock murders at this time. He is threatened to be charged with murder for the Starved Rock cases, threatened to be charged with rape, and several counts of Assault and robbery. And some of this is stemming from two situations that took place. I believe it was. Quite a year, but took place in the year of 1959. Both of these incidents took place at another park nearby. So this Mathiassen Park that is not too...

Terribly far, just so many miles from the Starved Rock State Park. Tied up the man, tied up the woman. They both believe once the man tied them up that he was just gonna rob them and let them go. Or maybe just leave them there. But he ends up raping the girl. And she claims that he was basically playing with a bullet in his mouth the whole time. almost kind of like swishing the bullet around in his mouth.

So she felt like she could identify this person. Well, when they went to cops initially, when they went to the law enforcement initially, I don't think law enforcement believed their story. Now, why would these two people make up this story? It doesn't make any sense. - What makes this of importance to the Starved Rock Murders investigation is you have... Remember, all reports are that they're looking for some sex maniac. This, to me, the way that you describe those crimes and the way that they're described in several sources that we've found... It almost sounds like something leading up to the events that took place at Starved Rock. Where you have this escalation, right? This violent rapist who did not care.

That this woman, this young woman, I believe she was 17, out walking with her boyfriend, is not threatened by the fact... That there's two persons there. That goes up, takes control of the situation. They're very similar. They're out for a walk in a park, a nearby park to Starved Rock. - Yeah, it ties them up. - And this is not terribly long before, like I said, it's 1959. I couldn't find the month in my notes here, but. Ties them up and it's the threat of murder. Obviously making the threat of murder to this girl who he's victimizing. And then robs the boy. Who he had tied up stealing the wallet or at least cash from his pockets before fleeing the scene. Now this was a case that yes they were

There was some investigation going on, but they had really nobody to tie it to they had no good leads needs. As far as I know in that case. Now, once they hone in on Chester Weager for the Starved Rock murders, they go back to this guy and girl who were attacked in Mathiasen Park. And they say, you know, do you think you could identify your... Attack her. And the girl says, yes, I will never forget that man's face. The, the. - The description that they offered, both the guy and the girl, was not... you couldn't eliminate Chester Weager as being the assailant based off of that description. I wouldn't say that it fit him to a T, but what I would... Say is it's similar. Similar age, similar height, similar weight. And we know...

That Uyghur lives in the area. So Uyghur And we also know that he hunted, so he would be out in parks, he'd be out in nature. Weager is subject. To a lineup. Bring everybody in, have them stand next to each other, and let's see if this guy and girl individually independent from one another can pick the Guy out of the lineup and pick Chester Weager. They both do. Now the problem with that lineup is Is if anybody's seen the picture of this lineup of these five guys standing next to one another. None of them look anything like the guy standing next to them. It is laughable. You first hear that this rape victim, this rape survivor, this, and also her boyfriend, which was there, he was tied up.

You find out that they both picked this individual out of a lineup. You go, got him. Yep. And if you got him for this crime in a park, and within the next year, a similar. Crime, multiple victims, escalation, okay, got him, got him. Throw away the key and then you see the lineup and you go, wait a second. that they're not going to be able to do that. They put one young guy in with a group of elderly men. Well, if you know that. The person that attacked you was a younger man. Now, my only caveat to this whole lineup thing thing. Is yes, was he the only young person? But they hadn't. They had another option. They ask you.

Do you recognize the man that attacked you? And they point out Chester. Thank you. Could have said, no, we don't see him at all. - You're exactly right. But we should make. That we underline the idea of Oh, you describe, both of you describe the assailant to me. And as the investigator, I'm now going, Whoa, hang on a second. I'm not telling them this, but oh, I can... Guy that matches that description and he is now my main suspect and has been one of my main suspects in the Star of Rock murders case. Of course I'm going to do a lineup.

Resembles the description of the assailant, then of course... These other four guys that look nothing like him are going to look nothing like the description of the say of the assailant right it's a very tricky state Situation and when we come back from this beer break we will have Chester Uyghur's confession. You I'm Dan Pashman, host of the Sporkful Food Podcast, and I'm excited to tell you about our new podcast, Deep Dish with Sola. And ham. Sola and Ham are chefs, YouTube stars, and a married couple. In each episode of Deep Dish, they deep dive into the surprising story behind a food, then see what it inspires them to cook up. The first episode starts off with

Two dead bodies and a trunk full of tamales. Listen to Deep Dish in this Porkful's feed wherever you get your podcasts. Back to this complicated case. This one will have your head spinning sometimes. And it's a guilty one killer. Two killers. Cheers to you all, thanks for joining us here in the garage. Cheers to you, Colonel. You and I tell you what, Captain, as I sit here in the cold February of Ohio... Hating for better and warmer weather. We review a case like this and it makes me want to stay.

Inside, indoors forever, not go to the park at all. The brutality of this case, it's in the, if in fact this was a complete random attack, just, it's a terrifying thing to ponder. We have his statement. Now, the confession we should point out here, Captain, is typed. And then signed by Chester Weager, agreeing to the... yes, this is my statement. So there's a court reporter that is there typing this. At the time we have multiple people that are involved. This is not just the investigators and that's going to be key here because we're going to have Chester Weager who's going to say, I was abused by the detectives during this questioning. We can't say with 100%

Percent certainty that he was or was not as we were not there. We can only go off of the statements or lack thereof of other persons who didn't have a dog in the fight, so to speak, that That are saying no, he wasn't, he did not appear to be physically abused, nor did I witness any abuse when he was in my presence or in the presence of the detectives. This is from ChicagoMag.com and there's a lot of great source material out there about this case. I want to point this one out and single this one out as I believe this is the best that there is. The best reporting on this case. And this comes from a gentleman by the name of Jake Maluli, who published this in December of 2021 in an article.

Titled Unmaking a Murderer against ChicagoMag.com. Now Chester Weigar's confession is very detailed and it offers up possibly some answers as to exactly what happened there that day. Let's take a deeper dive into this confession by. Old Chester. The confession states that during Chester Uyghur's afternoon break from work, he was walking toward St. Louis Canyon when he encountered the three victims. Now this... You should note here, Captain, he has in previous interviews and interrogations offered up an alibi for

Now, remember, he was working that day, but his original statements to the police was, Yes, I was working that day and sometime between, I believe he says 2.45. Five and three or a little after 3 p.m. on that Monday. A great day. A letter to a girl. He also states that he did some. Other things like maybe grab something to eat or smoked a couple cigarettes or what have you, but that is. Sort of the centerpiece of his Alibi or what he claims to have been doing when it is believed that the women were killed

we know that they left the lodge shortly after lunchtime that day. So the confession says the complete opposite, that he was walking in the woods during his break toward the canyon when he encountered the three victims. He states that he grabbed a strap that was around the shoulder, on the shoulder of one of the victims, because he believed it was a purse, that he wanted to snatch a purse and take off with it. But it turned out that the strap was not to a purse, that it was to some binoculars, and that strap broke. At that point, he said that one of the women hit him with either

the binoculars or a camera. So we have the three women, one of them's carrying binoculars, one of them's carrying the camera. He attempts to snatch and grab and flee. Unsuccessful, one of them starts to hit him with something he describes as either a bitch or a bitch. Binoculars or a camera. Then he says another one attacked them with something sharp, perhaps a comb. home. And somehow he was able to calm the women and persuade them to walk into the canyon as he followed. He told them that once they returned to the canyon, he would let them go. Back in the canyon, the women agreed to allow him to tie them up. He used string from the kitchen that he had in his pocket. He stole nothing from the women and began to walk away. That's when one of the women broke out of her house.

Of their binding and attacked him. He picked up a tree branch, knocked the woman unconscious. And dragged her body into a cave, fearing that he had killed her. He then bludgeoned the other two to death to eliminate any witnesses. Then the woman he first hit regained consciousness and struck him with the binocular. He retaliated with the tree limb and the binoculars. That he spotted a red and white Piper Cub airplane and was worried that it was a police, a state police airplane. He had been seen or would be seen. He dragged the bodies of the other two women up into the cave.

The statement the other woman is already in the cave. Then I took this here lady's coat off, if I'm not mistaken, Weijer said, and I put in front of this one here and just made it look like All I can say. End quote. Asked whether he removed one woman's pants and stuck them under her undershirt, as was the case at the crime scene, he said, quote, I don't know. He checked their pockets for money. Finding none, he left the scene. He washed the blood off his hands in a creek or in the snow, then returned to the lodge to work his evening shift. That's his confession to the police of how the women were murdered. He didn't intend to kill anybody. He went there and having seen them, thought he would snatch the purse.

Run off, and when that didn't go as planned, and they attacked him, he fought back, and it got out of hand. He killed one and then had to kill the others. The scene according to his statement. Everybody's saying initially we're looking for a sex crazed maniac. We're looking for possibly two killers. Now we got this guy confessing, one killer, not two killers, did this all on his own and he... Guess what? Wasn't sexually motivated. Everybody else is saying it is sexually motivated, but now we're saying nope. And I think it goes back to what we talked about, like good kind Was there a guy in the room going, Well, we know you didn't mean to hurt them. We know that this wasn't sexually motivated. We know you were just trying to rob them. And then it got out of hand.

- Oh, and maybe they attacked you first. I think that's where we get this story. If you believe he's guilty, then you can simply say, Well, he's just not telling you the full truth. He's innocent, then you believe that this is all fabricated. It's very difficult because this confession, he would later recant and say that no, that's not factual, I gave this confession under duress, which, yes. - Well, he kind of recants because we gotta do-- couple steps here. The other thing that is very odd in this case is that after he confesses Law enforcement takes him down to the scene. Has the media come out? and has him basically step by step go through this reenactment almost. Tell us what

happen, position the bodies here, then what did you do? To me, the That's very strange because one, how is he going to remember all that? I'd like to actually see the footage of. Of that scenario, because I would like to see, is he stumbling over his words? Is his confession similar to the one that he gave? It's a lengthy confession. He signed his name to all of them. There was no evidence that he was beat or that he was, you know, physically abused to get. This confession out of him. But obviously there was an interrogation of some kind, a lengthy one, but you don't. I mean, when have we ever seen that in a case where they take the suspect that just confessed

Down to the crime scene and have the media there to get all the information. I mean, it just seems ridiculous. It is ridiculous, but again, it's the 1960s and that's kind of how they did things back then. It wouldn't be uncommon to take the offense. Or to the scene today or even in the 70s, 80s, 90s, what have you, but you're right. You wouldn't bring the media along with you. You would film that photograph and record that session yourself in house. Here, what I wish that I could do is go back and unsee, you know, You said you wish you could see review all of that footage. I've not been able to review all of it, but I've seen portion.

Of it, and I know you've seen portions of it, I wish that I could go back and unsee the portions that I did see because it's got very difficult for me to look at this. Unbiased after having seen that because it was, I thought it was very convincing and not only just convincing it at parts. To me like he enjoyed the attention of, you know, he's, he's reenacting this crime best he can, whether he's making it up as he goes or whether he's acting out a script that's been laid out for him by law enforcement, I can't say. But what I can say is what my eyeballs tell me. The old eyeballs tell me this guy looks like he's acting in a part, but enjoying it. Smoking cigarettes, he's got his hair all done, and he is going through the motions one by one of this is what happened.

Happened, when, and how it all went down. Now there's, there's a lot of questionable things in his statement. I don't deny that one bit. And there are people. Very smart people, much smarter than I, that have said no. This crime could not have On the internet. Are of rock was one of the prosecuting attorneys, Anthony Rucuglia, who I believe to be a very smart, intelligent, a very good. Prosecutor. He even says in the documentary, Look, are there parts of this... That are wrong? He goes, Do I believe the confession 100%? No. He said, But it's not my job to believe the confession. He said, That's not my job.

The only part that mattered to me is at the end of the confession when he says he killed the three women. That's what I was there to prosecute. So even a smart man who has more insight into this case and a wealth of knowledge. And information that we've not been privy to says the confession's probably wrong. I have to believe it. But a couple things. Point out a couple things that are wrong couple things that seem to be right with the confession because that's the other problem right captain it would seem least on the face of it, that some of these things he did get right. There's going to be some details that you would think that the only only the killer would have No. So police were able to confirm and this was presented to the jury. I know we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here, but in 1961 this will go to trial and

As we already covered, it's near the end of 1960 that they get their confession from Chester Weager. When it's... when this thing goes to trial, it is presented to the jury that this whole... That he, during the process of killing them or after having killed the women, that the red and white airplane flew over. And he believed that, oh, he could be spotted or they would see the victims on the ground from the airplane, I must conceal the bodies. And this is when he drugged them into that shallow cave. Well, it's presented at court that there was a small red and white plane flying in the area that day, that afternoon. They had the flight logs, they had the...

The pilot and the owner of, I believe it was a flight club or a pilot club that was nearby, where the plane was housed. So they had testimony backing up that incredible detail within his confession. So that stands to me as something that probably is ringing true. The problem though is some of the physical aspects of the confession and the crime scene itself. Right. People have pointed out time and time again Chester Weiger he's smaller in stature there's no way that he would have Had the ability to physically pull these women up into that cave after having killed them. Now I'm going to dispute that a little bit. I would like to push back on...

Little bit. Yes, he's a, he's a smaller guy. Right. He's 21 years old, man. Remember the strength we had at 21? God, I want to get that back. Now, I'm a much larger individual than Chester Weager, but... I don't believe I would have had any trouble pulling them up one at a time into it's five feet Okay? Well, you also have an adrenaline rush. And if you watch... Portions of that reenactment when he's there with law enforcement with the media filming everything he is is pulling up a grown male who is playing the part of one of the victims. Now, I don't know that he's physically Pulling the man up, but it's, you know, the way that it's reenacted, he is certainly using some force to guide the man up into that cave. But Chester Weigert

He served in the Marines for two years, so I'm not going to believe that he's a weak individual. But here's here's the thing though, Captain. Let's say that he could pull him up on his own. Let's say that he couldn't. There's a couple of things that are physically incorrect with the science of the murder scene. There's two different kinds of hair found in the victim's hands. Watch. Already covered that. So what I'm getting at here is if Chester weakens You're killed or witnessed or was involved in the murder of these three women. I think that there is. It's a world that exists that his confession is wrong and he still was either there, involved,

responsible for killing these women. And that somebody else might have been there with him. And if that's the case, he did not have to pull those women up into that cave by himself. The other thing is I don't think anybody pulled them women up into the cave. Because I don't... Think that they were alive. I think they were killed in the cave. I think the blood evidence suggests that. The other thing that's interesting too is, and this comes from the notes of the investigators from 19... The notes from the investigators 1960 days after the murders. They're talking about the twine that was used to...

To tie the women up. And in those notes it says there's no bruising found around the wrist of the victims and there was no tension I believe is the note that is made. Right so if I'm picking up what you're putting down. They were bound after their murder? I would expect yes, if they were tied up and then killed. I believe you would find bruising around the wrist. And if his confession is correct, you would definitely find bruising around the wrist because he states that one of the women broke free. Well, you're not just going to wish it away, right? You're going to have to You're gonna have to force your way out of that and that's going to create some bruising. Bye.

Of the blood is found in that cave. There's no bruising on the wrist. I think that what happened is just like the skirts being pulled up after they were killed, probably, there's a chance that this twine was applied after they were killed. And what that would mean is that somebody forced them alive up into that cave. Or convinced them to get up into that cave. And you know what? Zodiac killer. ETK. We've seen it a hundred times before. Ellicom, ladies, I'm just here to rob you. Look, I'm an escape convict. And I'm just here to take your valuables. All I need you to do is get up in that cave for me. And I'm just here to take your valuables. All I need you to do is get up in that cave for me. - Yeah. It's going to take what I need from you and everything's going to be okay. I'll leave. If you do, as I say, nobody's going to get hurt. And guess what? Half the time when someone...

Bad guy tells good people that half the time they do what that guy says. And sometimes that guy. Is not telling you the truth and he intends to harm you or kill you. For what reason? Never get in the van. Never let somebody tie you up. And what's weird too, captain. Is that now this goes along with this whole robbery motive. Searching for a motive and who wouldn't? It's human nature, even if you're not involved in investigation. It's human nature. Want to know why something this horrible would happen to anybody ever right what kind of monster could do this and why would this monster do this This. Well, originally it was thought that it was going to be some kind of sex maniac. Well, the problem with that became... Yeah, they were displayed in such a manner, it would appear there were several indicators at the crime scene that yes, this is a crime scene. Was sexually motivated murders. But then the science comes back and says, we didn't find any evidence of sperm

I want to be clear here. When they come out with that information, they say, So the victims weren't raped. There's a whole other school of thought that yes, that there was still a sexual assault, even though that type of evidence was not found. I think the sexual assault could be deba- That we may never know if that was a motivating factor, if it was something that took place or something that didn't take place. That was an indicator to the investigators at the time that that wasn't the motive. And so then they didn't manufacture this idea that there was a robbery. No, that idea was presented to them. Remember the family members contact the police and they say, Hey, our mom's jewelry's missing. Rings that she had at the very expensive rings that she had on her finger. We can't find them. You know, they're unfortunately

They're preparing the woman for burial and they don't have her rings. Well, when the investigators go sorting through all the evidence and clothing and items that they've collected, they find it amongst the clothing and in some of the gloves stuffed inside the gloves. Happened at the murder scene. The women were processed. The victims were processed. It probably happened then. It was probably just an error, a very innocent error. But see, now they, the idea of robbery was presented to them. Oh, no sperm? Couldn't have been sexual. Motivated. Well, what's the motivation? Missing jewelry, missing expensive rings, robbery. That's our motive. Well, then you find the rings. The problem is the investigators never took that off the table, even though it's believed that nothing was. Taken from these three women. And according to Chester's confession, nothing was taken from these women.

Was still the motive. This is what started this whole thing and it's, no pun intended, snowballed out of control. A violent individual, Chester Weiger, who had committed. Previous crimes according to the police, according to that line-up, that terrible line-up that we discussed. Which is so weird too, right? Like because that's that is 100% a sexually motivated crime so you have Elements of that here too, I believe. There is a sexual nature to this crime. Look, were they staged? Probably. The legatures would indicate that. But the robbery part, I, what I, what I do not like is when people review this confession and they go, Well, they weren't robbed because nothing was taken from them. The binoculars were found, the camera was found, the jewelry was found. out.

Can't Buddy sit here and say with 100% confidence that no cash money was stolen from these women? No, I've not heard any of that. Anybody or read any statement of the like. So that still stands an opportunity there. Now, if we can, which I don't think we can. If one were able to successfully eliminate both of those as possibilities for motive based off of the crime scene and the evidence, well, then you have a whole different mystery here on your hands. This means that either just some complete crazed lunatic killer. Went total schizo and just attacked and killed these women, which I don't believe. There's things that suggest this. The destroying of the face, we've talked about this before. And long time listeners will remember if you're new to the show you've not heard this before but maybe you've heard it elsewhere or read this elsewhere psychologists will tell you

The destroying of the face and the head of a person is suggestive of severe mental health issues, could be schizophrenic and so on and so on, and a violent schizophrenic person. Not all schizophrenic people are violent, in fact most of them are not at all. But it's It's the destruction. It's not just the killing of the person. It's the to destroy them, to deface them. Other thing that is left out of some of the reporting, which is very strange, I know. This one thing made the documentary, but it's not in all the reporting. But I believe it's the left index finger, the tip of the finger was missing from one of our victims. And I believe it was from Mrs. Murphy. So the tip of her-

of her finger are missing. I would like to know more information on that. Is this is there any chance was it was this the Of the finger, was it broken and torn? Or was it cut? Because we don't have any other indicators of a sharp object being used on our victims. Because it makes you wonder if it was a post-mortem was it possible? You know, I'm going to take this as a souvenir from the killer, or is it just simply a defensive wound? Exactly, exactly captain. That's what I'm wondering. I want a better description because the way that it's reported is that it was removed post-mortem,

Removed is weird, right? Again, I want to know, was it broken and torn off as a defensive, you know, was it just happenstance? Because I'm sorry to be this gruesome and disgusting. But when you strike a person 100 times in the head and face, there's a good chance that you're probably striking them a number of times after they've already expired. It also makes me wonder, again, not to be gross, if you're eating a sandwich, please put it down. But is there a possibility that because it And we don't know exactly how long they were out there. Is it possible that an animal got to them and made any injuries? Postmortem. Very likely. Again, we need more of a description on how they believe that this tip is removed and lost. Because, you're right.

To me, it could also suggest, like you said, maybe some type of hit. We've all seen the movies, they clip off a finger and take it back to the person that hired them. What is your motive if you are able to successfully eliminate a sexual motive? Robbery or both, which I don't think given the circumstances or the evidence or information that we have that we can say 100% that we can rule those out. What I do believe Though is the corralling of the women because again I don't think they were just chilling in the cave when the killer happened upon them. I think the paraling of the women along with the staging and the physical. Of finding two sets of hairs, each independently being found in the hands of different victims.

And after analysis appear to be different from one another, I think that's incredibly suggestive. I'm looking for two people minimum in this case. Was Chester Uyghur one of them? Hard to say. His confession, again, could be wrong. And factual, yet he could still have been involved. I have a hard time believing that anybody responsible for killing three people, being involved in killing three people in the way that these three were killed is-- that's just telling the truth every day of their life. And we know even if the, even with the confession, we know he told a different story. Before.

Persons, no matter how terrible they are, to minimize their guilt. She attacked me. I just I was just trying to score a few bucks by snatching a purse She attacked me and then I had I was forced to fight back. I was forced to confront the women and I in a fit of rage or in an attempt to fight her off, I picked up a log and struck her over the head and bludgeoned her to death and then I was forced to kill the other two and conceal the bodies because I couldn't leave

Any witnesses. I didn't intend to kill anybody. Minimize guilt. As good as mine. If you have thoughts, check out our blog at truecrimegarage.com and stick around for part three. Same bad time, same bad channel. Be good, be kind, and don't.