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The Vanishing Man /// Part 2 /// 178

2018-01-24 | 🔗

The Vanishing Man /// Part 2 /// 178

Part 2 of 2


Friday, April 15, 2005 - 59 year old Ray Gricar, the district attorney for Centre County, Pennsylvania called into work. He said he would not be coming into work that day. He let his girlfriend know that he planned to take a drive and do some antique shopping. He never returned home. The next day investigators found his vehicle parked at an antique shop's dirt lot. The car was locked and Ray's cell phone was found inside the car. The scene was eerily familiar to that of Ray's brother's suicide years ago. What happened to Ray Gricar? Had many years as a prosecutor made him one too many enemies? Was Ray's case tied to the Penn State scandal? Or was Ray living a secret life and decided to walk away? Tonight we discuss one of the most fascinating disappearances from the state of Pennsylvania. Beer of the Week - Brawler by Yards Brewing Company Garage Grade - 3 and a half bottle caps out of 5

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
My name, is jason alexander. The star bedtime stories of the angle side in a brand new scripted comedy podcasting, which I play palm springs. Hotelier mel haber through in the nineteen seventies, turn the run down anxiety and into the best kept secret, get away for hollywood's elite. The series also stars Brian Jordan, Alvarez Michael, the keen richard kind, lance basque, and what you can find bedtime stories of the angels. I didn't on serious exam, pandora stitched or wherever you get your forecast, don't forget to follow the jobs. Are you never misses episode? did. You know the card delivers more than groceries. Even get tech beauty office applies sporting goods and more all delivered right to your door and as fast as an hour. So whether you are cooking dinner or your phone chargers cooked you can save, of multiple trips by shopping over one thousand stores in the instigated app visit instincts, I come to get free delivery on your first. Three orders offer valid for a limited time: ten dollar minimum per order, additional terms, apply
I the. I welcome the true gram garage where view or whatever you are doing. Thanks for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me. As always as a man, Just informed me that the true crime garage army has gone bazooka. He is the cap. I've always been abolished this man myself, but to be seen and is good to see you there's four listen
four tone tonight, we are drinking thrall or by yards brewing company from the city of brotherly love, philadelphia, pennsylvania garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five brawlers, an english ale that is delicately hopped for knockout flavour and its Character adds to its drink ability and you, brawler was brought to us by our garage brothers and sisters. First up, we have sharing and calandria queensland australia and the big with like your job to Christine and columbus. ohio Next we have lisa in Austin, texas, also in taxes. We have lance out in bed Tat makes up, we have trudy from accords bill Indiana or also from the facts of life. and then all the way into a coma, we have bacon bits the cat.
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This was a case that you wrote about I actually wrote about this case when I was still of crime reporter. I was working at the free time's up in cleveland and two thousand six about a year after he disappeared. what time did you spend looking into raise case? I see it. It was a good month to six weeks kind of learning the ins and outs of of the greek our disappearance in you know we only had we only had it'll bit of information at the time because it was ami about a year after he disappeared, but it was already. It struck me as mystery that was going. The last is very weak in the same way that more murray's case kind of stuck out for me, because just one more murray. Here we have somebody who disappeared, there's no evidence of a crime and ec,
clues can take you anyway. You wanna go you ve got possible suicide. You ve got motive for murder. Was it a did? He walk away to start a new life somewhere there is evidence for that too, and beyond that, there's like there's like sparkle of the paranormal. In this one too, that suggests some sort of connection to us all things, and I know how crazy here we go time travel yoga, and- and I want to give it a james as lasers- might have just our credibility by but sick round you're like that. There's there some meat things that that about greek car and in this idea of times, I'm not any. He he was time. I am saying he he might have disappeared in a way that would lead people to believe that anyways Bulgaria can so.
Do you have the eu set up the case? Well, the the particulars of the case, but you know I I guess we could go out in order of possibilities here. You know, look it's suicide. I and I can't I don't think it's you know. I don't think it's suicide, but to support that you ve at the fact that his brother Roy disappeared in ninety nine be six and his wife he was found in the river. And then you look at re greek car and His many cooper was found by river and that's where he disappeared. They eventually found his computer and hard drive if, in the river the some fishermen fish up the hard drive, some fishermen fish up the laptop. And then about a month later a woman finds the hard dr. So but then they found raise body and if you
to jump into a river fiona walk into a river in a do. The was a virgin you ll, for you know, weigh your pockets down with rocks and walk in the body's going to turn up. It's really hard to get rid of a body by committing suicide by jumping into a river it all it afloat at all, show up at all. we found the laptop. We found the hard drive, but no rain. So I almost leads the the evidence that he did jumping Does she found those other items again yet if he did where's the where's, the body there to support theory. You know you ve got near somebody, look at how he was looking to retire, and you know don't really know what to do with himself you know, was looking at that and kind of depressed and he had his his job was his life more so than any the women, because he'd been married twice in divorce twice and new, seeing this this co worker there so
see that lot with men as their their work. Their identity once they lose their work, they lose their identity and they don't know what to do with themselves. So So the theory is that when retire- and I am nobody anymore, so others ended, but another thing about them. The suicide theory is that he had daughter, laura and in by all accounts. You know here I loved her very much and they were close when she was growing up. In fact, he was kind of when they moved there. His wife had the job and he was stay at home dad. Now it's it's interesting. Note that laura is is adopted not his biological daughter, And I've never really figured out the back story. Like. How that adoption process worked, was it did they adopt somebody that they knew or did they get through the typical adoption process and anonymous unum, so that that something had we like to know about, but if
with suicide rate. really set things up to take care of laura in his absence. This is one of the more interesting things about re. In my opinion, he was the dna of and our county penn state. You know is restriction, but when he died he there is almost no money in his accounts, his bed. account, has hardly any money in it. There's he he ever bought anything in his name. The car was in his girlfriend same. He had no assets. Xo where's all that money that he was making. Did you really spend it auditing, not budget? Well or or did he have some sort of separate account? The police looked at the suicide theory and thought maybe he'd been contemplating suicide for, while because the day before his disappearance He was seen another body of water near this reservoir
We seem to be like walking around and kind of contemplating life. The witnesses said an ear what he was he thinking about his brother and reminiscing about patten wondering about that. so in others that possibility of suicide, I'm just like the more case, though there are a lot of rabbit holes that you could go down, because there are clues that don't seem to make much sense. You go back to them cooper. There is some cigarette ash found inside the car. He was vehemently again milking. He didn't smoke himself, it smelled of milk. One though detectives opened the car as if somebody had just been smoking before shutting up, and I cellphone was in there. So who was smoking in that car right? There was a witness at this anti. like mall antique store where the
cooper was found. It was found in this parking lot. Re was seen, therewith an unidentified woman, beautiful you know, attractive woman. So who is that? you know what does she have to do with with this whole thing, is very much a charmer, you know he very private person on one on one hand very private, but was also very flirtatious, with women and was known you not the law? hold diner to pick favorite, waitresses and always enough where with them- and you know, always be with with his other wives? There is always you know these rumours of infidels you know, hang out, women, and so did that have something to do with his disappearance was that, on his mind, Where did he ever aside peace right that was thou breaking off or who is mary
yeah or who is breaking it off your or or maybe he was not telling some of these ladys that was married and had a kid and the army. yeah. Well, he wasn't married at the time of his disappearance. He was he had a. This girlfriend that was, they were living together. They were very you know, of course right, but still he could have been telling you girls that he meets all on single right, and I have anybody my life and bob law and then once the site. these then finds out. He does have a life there, like warm gonna, tell on yeah right gray. Up happens. Often, whoever this was hasn't come out here since the disappearance and you look at the case for murder and you know thereabout, times I kind of in this way, because there's deafening motive for murder and but The time in two thousand six, when I reported on this, it seem very unlikely like who would have had the who had had the balls to kill a the a and centre county. Well,
You know, five years later after my article came out a jerry sandusky arrested and charged with all these counts of vienna. Molesting boys had pens date and and it comes out that the prosecutor in charge you have sent our county. Who was re greek are knew about this. nineteen, ninety eight there he had investigated at four he'd investigate it for some time. Having spoken to one of the victims right, however, they had no evidence to pursue the charges other than this boy's statement, the boy statement and they actually got sandusky to come in and they like tape. This interview, where it was this weird thing that ray had set up where he got the boy the same room sandusky just to see you. what's hand, ascii would say or or his body language,
There is an expert there that told the told greek areas I got this guy, you know without a doubt the skies Pedophile and you know he could have charge Sandusky at that time and you may be further victimization or whatever, but if anybody really runs centre county penn state at that time, it's Joe paternal riot. This revered in a coach and his reputation as we saw was destroyed along with Sandusky is the question as yet. Much he knew and for how long was raise ultimate decision to not prosecute Sandusky was it was it somebody s was a paternal? Was it was pressure from somewhere You know is this something that that greek are always felt guilty about and I wonder if you're here, Looking at retiring in december of two thousand five he disappeared in April was he
thinking about opening that case, opening that can of worms before he retired so that he would have a clear conscience, and be able to go on. Was he reopening that did he yelled did he meet with paternal? Did he meet with sand us or or somebody else that was. You know wrapped up in all this and was it that person was trying to keep it kind of off the record until he had me those people certainly had a motive to get rid of re greek are, I think it was summer to spot I too, I mean with idea of what we do when I go after the other catholic church because of how big day are made out in. We could argue that college football at penn state is possibly the saviour yeah then church, oh for sure, for some people it is church. You know
absolutely- and I think they're there they might be wrapped up in there somewhere. There's another possibility here one of the reasons of greek harden prosecutes, prosecute sandusky with some sort of culpability I you there were some weird internet searches on greek cars computer before he disappeared and the One of the police officers, who is investigating the case, suggested to me that some of the searches had to do with you know being on the down low, you know was there some sort of you know. Sexual promiscuity, you know something weird going on there, I tenzin up really by into that cause it by all appearances, it seems that in a re was really really into women in a so
meaning that the searches he was looking up were possibly they. He led a gay lifestyle outside of the public eye. The sum of the police wondered if he wasn't cruising these parks fur men aka, because he was seen at these parks. in a rate before he disappeared and when they were some other places, he was seen or known now cruising spots at the time and but may be possibly the you know, But if I act like a ladies man church than You know I m I'm kind of flamboyant about that, but I think flamboyant My party has been the choice of words, but if I'm out the man, I love women than that state- pretty easy cover up for my alternative lifestyle. I don't know how much aid I buy into that
or how much you know evidence there really is too that in that still does not explain where the body is no, if if it does turn out to be murder, that would also possibly be a reason for suicide, somebody that has lived such a long life, and they fill for whatever reason. Then they can't young live. There live a life where they can be the true to themselves. right and he will without a doubt in my mind, requires the one that wrecked his computer and hard drive what was on the computer and hard drive that needed to be destroyed ranks. Buddy and greek cars home that he was sharing a patty for Nikola. Some in this is poor. but we re himself, with searching, was googling. You know how to destroy hard drive how water destroys huh.
I myself, he had this plan when you went there to destroy this hard drive. What was on there? Was it something to be murdered for was it something he was going to be shamed for and method to assign was it plans to run away, was at his you know, bank accounts and that things he had set in motion to walk away and as more time goes by. I find I've just like and more murray's case, I'm leaning to this idea that he did he planned to start a new life and what but possibly again if your lead in this other lifestyle, that maybe you can't come out as yourself sure, but the idea that well I can start a new life start a new name, and I don't have to worry about being shamed at all my because I'm today, this new person in person, but again as one is piece of ass ever
that like can lend either way right, but have we had any body that has come out in the last ten years or so that have said that they have romantic relationship with them as Like a man saying that not that I not that I know not I that's, then, that's why I think that that that might be nice. Actually what was going on I mean he certainly had characteristics. That would seem a little you know a feminine or or prissy. You know he's very clean, meticulous type of person. I think that was just his you, no kind of slow We on the autism spectrum. You know o c d dns that was re. I wanna talk a little bit more about the like the theories, the back up, the walk away like why he white he's about to turn see he's going to retire. Why, then, why is he retiring then, where
It seems to me or not retiring, but why would you walk away at that point right because it seems like the least right likely time to walk away here we need to get a retirement. He's gonna get a pension for this job. That he's On forever its. He had plans to travel these, Don't point to anything any reasons to walk away unless he was a spy for slovenia which out of context sounds ridiculously silly, but let me break it down, and this now poison. question whether not his brother suicide was in fact a suicide after keep in mind that greek our disappears he's making good money, but nobody can find. The accounting of that money god, no assets in his name a couple years ago did dead, spin
One of their report is put in a public records request for the fbi file and see a file of great greek car, and it comes back rejected for national security. and the cia is involved and says you can't? We can't really certain bits of information related to rake recourse disappearance. Now, what in the world. Is the cia doing involved in recruiters disappearance in the disappearance of the sum this de I welcome it. There is a really good, citing of re after his disappearance in south field michigan. This is so cool because the person who who spotted greek car was retired police detective who did when he was working for the police did composite sketches. Ok, so this if the guy you go dear. This is the eye witness you want. This is the best I witness ever any says he.
My salary greek are, after he disappeared in south filled michigan now, what's important about south feel michigan it's nothin we I'll give a riot about measuring and re nine of them go by us, except for the macedonian consulate and if you're on if you're lang low and you to leave the country and get a visa to slovenia. You would go through the macedonians that would be the closest place. The re green card can get to go through there he has citizenship his, I think, grandfather, something his ancestors came from slovenia I'm so he could I for visa and get take over there and everything would be kosher, that's how he could escape the united states under under rate or the b I file also shows that greek heart took two trips: the yugoslavia which is now par. slovenia, he took two trips to you. This
obvious during the cold war. Nineteen, seventy three and nineteen. Eighty four for the fbi. These are red flags. Why is this young man in nineteen? Seventy three travelling to yugoslavia? into the soviet union Well, but is it is his motherland? It is yes, but does he I? I don't know that would have any living relatives. There may be distant, but that doesn't really matter, but let's consider he was turned at that point, He and his brother turned to to protect them land to gather information to be asleep or agent. Essentially, what better job would there be then you know a district attorney in pennsylvania, is near shoot. Centre counties is very close
to another. There is this very famous case of this directly nor there's another county in pennsylvania, north of centre, county, very famous case, where this government official was turnouts very corrupt and was laundering money through the government system and disappeared here in slovenia with all these foreign connection, so I'm not saying this is exactly what happened, but if greek car and his brother were involved and espionage it would explain. The fbi's presents the cia presents, it would explain, possibly the brothers suicide that wasn't actually assume so maybe it was murder anna, explain why greek are decides to disappear, then, because he's finished his mission he's finished. His is his duty, which is to work in government in america and to do what he can for
this the homeland, now he gets to go home, but in order to go home he has done and his old. I d, you know he's got the burned note. Yeah, but also to be you have this talented, smart prosecutor and it could be not working for his motherland. It could be working for the united states as well you can take it the other way right, yeah and that's why he visit seventy three than eighty four. Then, while we have to have you go missing here. So then exact you go back home, you're new person. Was he one of ours? I will give you anything. You know and that's all crazy to, but people have to understand, like that. Behind the cia they recruit people well They got every depending on what the mission is: they're gonna recruits may in their twenties or thirties, forties, fifty and so on, and
You know he's are working in the system it out in some I like that go? While this is a prestigious move up, you know right right. They could set up the secret accounts for him. The swiss bank accounts that he must have had Are you now to follow? His money will take care of all the stuff and then, when it, when it comes out that you're here you're missing, I mean we're gonna be investigating this, but you know you the market for so long to get the f b I or the cia involved in unless imposing is really hard to do, yeah and he got both of em in this case, which is fascinating, the
My name is jason alexander, the star of bedtime stories of the angle side in a brand new scripted comedy pakistan, which I play palm springs. Hotelier mel haber through in the nineteen seventies turn the run down ingle side into the best kept secret, get away for hollywood's elite. The series also stars, Brian Jordan, Alvarez Michael, the keen richard kind, lance basque, and what you can find bedtime stories of the ngos. I didn't on serious example or stitched or wherever you get your bike ass, don't forget to follow the jobs. Are you never misses? Episode putting up with instant hard. You can groceries and more delivered from over one thousand stores and seventy five thousand locations. So whether a massive hall from a wholesale club, everyday essentials from your go to supermarket or specialty items from your favorite local grocer. You can get whatever you need delivered in as fast as an hour. You can even shot for pet supplies, electronics in sporting goods in just a few clicks visit into carter.
I'm to get free delivery on your first, three orders offer valid for a limited time. Ten dollar minimum per order, additional terms apply. The alright, we're back cheers mates nick is in florida. He's having a good time, keeps on sending me pictures of beers and I think, he's drunk and every picture he sent me but I'll oppose those on instagram. Also quick reminder: we have hoodies for sale, people been asking for them for a long time. So, I've worked my butt off and now get some hoodies for sale and it's a preorder and it's going to only last for a short period of time. So if you want one get one now at true crime, garage dot, com and click on the store page, so let's get back to the conversation that we had with James renner about the vanishing man, bray rica
and then you ve got the time. Travel as I was in investigating his disappearance back in two thousand six somebody directed me, I was directed to this book. This obscure sigh fi book called twenty twenty vision written by PAMELA west in the eighties and it was hard to track down a copy. I think it's out of print, but I was able to get one through amazon and I picked it up and at first glance you like what does this have to do ray greek are any read the book, and it's about this detective who had this one. He could never solve near penn state and He ends up growing old and in some ways this this has shades of primrose lane in it, old and then uses in time. Travel to go back and save this woman from being killed a quantum leap? like one await b, I write and the interesting
thing about. It is the date that this guy disappears in the book is April. Fifteenth. and their clues like a little bit of cigarette ash found inside vehicle any didn't smoke and his was found by a river and you realize that everything from this site I book about time, travel, The sky the disappears inside the book matches up with everything about raised disappearance. Even the date We think this is total coincidence until you realize and find out that re greek car was the consultant on the book. Twenty twenty vision and PAMELA west was a journalist, slash professor a penn state. And she's writing underpinned name and for a while. I wondered if re greek, our wasn't in family planning west, but he's not. she really does exist and
What she wanted to do was she wanted to read true crime book call about the betsy arts, my case, which is a famous unsolved case out of penn state. Have you guys done that one? Yet no, but was that the girl that was killed in the library? Yes, her body was stabbed yeah, her body was found in the stacks, and this was the back in sixty nine that her body was in the stacks and the library penn state and when they found it, they they can figure out how she died. She was just dead on the floor. And what they found later was. She was stabbed once directly through the chest into her heart and it was a clean cut in and she bled inside so there's no blood outside of her body and she dropped dead like that to this day, that case remains unsolved, now PAMELA west, thought she knew who did it and she wanted to write a book explaining how It is now over evidence for it and she went to greek are asking help,
You know how do I do this without king getting soon he said well, honey problem, He tells him there and just make it fictitious, adsum side to it, and that way you get you get. You know what you ve done. All this research can go to something button. You now You're not can be able to name the person. You think that it so was this: if greek cars. Gonna walk away. You know Was he doing it in some sort of funny? You know: was he having a little fun with it boys leaving a clue right like I helped with this book? One of the big things was that this guy has to go missing, back in time right and and what happened in the book. Ok. Well, I need to go missing I'm just gonna. Do that yeah and some gonna get the reference and might take em awhile. That's what I mean got the reference right right, so I hope that
what happened in and he was having a little fun with his disappearance. It seems too much of a coincidence to me yet exact date. The fact that greece, was the consultant on the cigarette cigarette ash. Everything matches the those are that that's tiny. details, if it was just go back in time and here's the date and then he went missing. I'd go others, that's one right, and but once you get those little small brain details, it's not weird yeah, the the other thought that people have had along those lines is or was he close to did he want to go after betsy arts max killer before he retired, and did he tried to meet with betsy archness killer? There? and there is a scuffle and he was murdered and but then again you still don't have a body. So Why, and, as I explained, the. The hard drive in the computer and rang the lake exactly well, maybe you could
clear up a few things since you did speak with the investigator yeah sure there was, there was rumour from his coworkers and his girlfriend that he was may have been suffering from depression that he was acting strange, that and out of character that weak, leading up to his disappear. one thing that keeps coming up as a question mark amongst a lot of people is his his day his morning before he disappeared. Was he did he leave work early? Did he not going to work? all that day, I've I've seen it reported both ways from what I've heard he yeah so appears, on a a friday, friday April, fifteenth and
from what I understand he was at work the day before and but then he called off. He was playing hooky, you know he he was supposed to be at work, but and nobody thought that that was too weird because he was you know, getting ready for retirement and he would often take these days where he'd just drive in to the country and go antiquing where he was possibly meeting up with this other woman who knows but anyways it wasn't that out of character. What was and is so. He calls off on that that friday, one of his co workers, also prosecutor, swears hundred percent swears. He saw a great car there that day in somebody in the passengers seat of somebody else's car and hid I mean it looked like you come in and may be forgot something, and was you know, but he was pulling out of the prosecutor's office in the passenger seat of somebody else's car.
and he made note of it because he's like what you know he's not spin today, he's here he's in whose driving a car So, what's he doing back at at the office that day, a record of him, actually gone into the office, not the weak, not though we found no, he was oh. I forgot to mention this greek car was also obsessed with an ohio case unsolved case. The dimension to a number of co workers in the weeks leading up to and the months leading up to his disappearance and that's the unsolved parents of male wily. male was the chief of police and I want to say bath, but I'm entirely sure was near bath, ohio and This was in the seventies or eighties, I believe, but he disappeared one day and they found his shoes and clothes and his wallet tucked into his shoes on edgewater beach up in clean
and now I, while he must have drowned out there, but they never found the body and then they went back and went to his typewriter and were able to extract, like all the letters that he had written in. Very obviously, this guy had planned for his disappearance and was going off to. California, but he didn't and away. He was never found again and he was working and go meant, and he had this top position and this guy just up and disappeared start a new life in greek car. knew about it and was kind of weird we obsessed about it and had mentioned that case to a couple people, so it was on his mind nor again, maybe leaving lobe bread. Crumbs ran right right like, I can't tell you where I'm going, but when I disappeared ok. I think I have been what he was telling. People was very strange with the lack of money in the bank that to me says volumes. It says that there
account out there we don't know about, he didn't seem to be living a frivolous life style, yea wasn, I know extravagant living. He didn't have his own house. He was living with as his girlfriend and if he was broke he could have attempted to get reelected and keep his business. And exactly yeah another four years right right, he wasn't bro, we just don't know money is now he's prior at least making six figures. You would think son state yeah, so he calls off. There is an eye witnesses that they believe they saw him at work in the parking lot, and that clears up the discrepancy of did he actually go into work and just do a half day and relieve as far as his vehicle goes, we should probably set this up a little bit because he had a mini cooper, read many cooper and this wasn't just like all go out and buy a fuel efficient car, to get you to and from work he was. A driver
to take long drives. He seemed to be particular about his vehicle, yet Oh, that was in his girlfriends name. You have as his, which is where answer that makes the that makes the cigarette ash is even more strange because it that he doesn't. We don't see any signs that he would have allowed somebody to smoke in his car right just kind of willy nilly. It seem like something that people that you wouldn't let hap absolutely unless it's his last last time in that cutting you know, I I picture what I pictures his sexy cia handler. You know coming in and you know they they sit in a car for a minute and then he and cheese. I got there cigarette in your mouth and she's. I well ray. It's been a trip one last look happy valley before we get her before I take you back to slovenia,
and then they get into awaiting black sudan and and drive off into the sunset. So his his laptop that later found its a county issued right laptop and that's why I brought up the whole thing of whether he was at work that day or not, because a lot of people have questioned well if he called off and didn't go into work. How likely would it be that he would have had that computer with him at the time of his disappearance right. I think I from what I understand it was. It was issued through work, but it was a laptop that he can take home and do his work there. So, You know I d, I don't. I don't put too much into that. I wouldn't look too hard into that for clues. His cell phones found in his vehicle, his keys wallet, never found audits, yeah right and is the vehicle locked. I can't remember, but I do know that the vehicles locked no keys in the cell,
loans in the car, but turned off that sons right yeah and this is a county issued, cellphone rail I've, you again like I don't wanna get tracked, so I'm leaving the self on here. I've got my burner on me. Maybe or if he was murdered in a nobody else, wants that bit of evidence you're able to tie them to it later so again, you've got these clues. That can only do both ways. I tend to lean more towards you know these. These I'll see my clues that he himself was responsible for I'd love to see what was on that laptop. They ve never been able, even though they recovered the hard drive. They ve never been able to extract any data out of it because it was in the river. So yeah, and if anybody's going gonna be able to wear them, cia or right that the. They had a group that works with nasa examined the the hard drive and they were unable to pull anything of it.
That was, as interestingly make as we like, but you said the connection with the book. The connection to this I owe case it seems like he had cement interest and starting over. it does you know, and if none of that were to happen, it wouldn't look more really. What, look more like a murder, abduction wallet thing about. You know when the while we think the body when in the river mean yeah, suicide or murder. You would expect that at some point, you'd find the body right. There is always that possibility that you sure them get stranded the case that they dysentery right, you know and getting to the abduction nina murders. It is very unlikely with a sixty year old man to unless it's like I mean if he was, if being abduction from the scene and murder, it would suggest organised crime to some extent no one possibly and were then. If it, then he got look
to his brothers death as well. Exactly right, yeah, you know. Maybe that was not a suicide and then it's how now, howard, these murders connected right. Well, maybe though his brothers, not a district attorney? District attorney can create lot of enemies. That's shall we. Especially over a twenty year timeframe. Definitely, but What was his brother involved in because you I mean could sometimes in its lake it may be. His brother was I don't know much about his brother at all: ass bombs, If you want to start speculating going down that rabbit hall, it's like was, is yeah this process You know what I'm doing well for myself, but this guy struck. So maybe I know some people I can help. now or maybe it's just a bad seed right- that the brother too, could just be a legitimate suicide. My mother
suicides very rarely just walk into a river. That's very determined yeah there better ways to kill yourself especially for men. Men are usually gun. You know to the mouth are more violent. You know they don't usually walk into a river to drown themselves, while his his brother, you know in the river, kills himself vehicle found near a bridge yep. Re disappears. His items are found in or on the banks of the river yet and his vehicles found near a bridge if disparity, wonder in that clearly would have been on his mind as he does you want us to think about. That is. Is he trying to suggest that it was suicide, early, walk away? I e the more I think about this case as where does it sound I lean towards the spy theory that he was either one of us, sir. You know spying for them and I'd love to go
I have to go to slovenia and just try to look around while he had beheld now, oh shit, he'd be seventy, seven. Seventy four use them suddenly here. But the thing here is: here's what I question about him walking away or- being a spy in choosing that ok now sign for me to go, isn't it in an extreme poor taste to leave your vehicle in the same situation that your brother's radical was found in when you have a daughter, rattle care adopted or not? You have a nephew that was the son of his brother, you do have some family that lived through inexperience where a relative went missing. Vehicle, found near bridge for about a week until they figure out that he's in the river and then they similarly role at a suicide. So now,
I'm planning my disappearance, I'm planning to walk away, I'm gonna in the ports, of taste leave my vehicle next to a bridge, and in my items in the river, that's a really good. That's a religion, point I hadn't thought about before that would be kind of a. A mean thing to do, for your freer who, who you you now assume a would be his loved ones But let me ask you this: like: let's say he was a spy and it was time to go back home to the motherland, how would you do it without? everybody or a spy. How would you disappear me? I would personally, I think that walking away is his brewed in bad enough on its own law back, I can't I wish you would want to buy what I'm saying is you can attempt to do it without a trace, but but you do you could leave
If you, you know you could drive the vehicle off into the woods somewhere, but you can leave the vehicle at your house and actually then becomes even more of a mystery, because it's a quo, so he disappeared from his house and but as cars here, and maybe he was doing them a favour by by leaving it to the house, so the gaiters wouldn't look at the people that live there. All ties go south africa zaga, so we gives it out there and he's got his brow. In mind yeah. I just don't know that if, if that's europe, if that's who you are- that's your identity and you you have to do this one way or another. Is there Is there a decent way to do it that true? Now here I don't even think about until we started talking but yeah. Of course, if he's doing then he's gonna make sure that he doesn't disappear from home because he doesn't want his loved ones to be so implicate patty, and yet I was unaware of yes, oh yes, it's that weird piece of evidence where it goes back and forth because in one in one sense while this is really bad taste right, but
their sense basically lead you to believe that. You know, because of his brother and because of everything going on in retirement, that he was so depressed that, took his own life. You know, also he he does it during the day when he his girlfriends at work and has witnesses that put her at work. So he's furthering right. like by doing damage control for her well yeah damage control there, but also almost damage control for the family, where it's like they ve been through that before, and that was true, but its cut most understandable right, rang out there in time and sight while he lay the press and his brother and be. This was his way of being with his brother rang, and I I think we ve solved it here. I think he I d like the other woman theory now not at all, and I tell you why you we're not talking, while a guy there had been married, thirty years ray had
fourteen children with the same woman right he's been divorced, twice keys. coming up on a retirement where he's going to receive a decent retired Then he's earned he's work a lotta years to earn it right. I just don't see it in the relationship with patty. Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of it, but they weren't married right. They shared a place together. I dont I can't get into the other woman theory, because I think there's it would be very easy for him to just and the asian ship with patty and and start this new rule ship or bring this going on relationship to light continue. His life and retire in you know, set up a life with the new woman, rather than this whole walking away in ass unless that woman was his handler, you know or how about this this. This is another weird,
How about this case? So this other woman than he was seen with people recognized her as like to a person like that that one of the people that saw him with her said Yang. It wasn't just beautiful woman, it was the specific, beautiful woman, who's, a journalist, slash tv. I think she was involved. Tv like news up there to yoga, so the police are like, Ok, we gotta find her and they went to find her. She had also called off work that day and she she they tractor. She was like, I think if I'm getting this red upstate new york, but she had travelled out of the city. and so they tracker down- and I think she was out like a wedding of her a family member, something she had a pretty good excuse, but how we, Is that that, like the person that, despite the
The witness is sure was with ray also called off that day. It just a bad coincidence for her, or is there more to that? You know how thorough do you think that they tried. track him. The authorities- because I mean there's no crime committed here also talking about an active district attorney, goes missing right they're going to try to attract this guy. It's not like that's another weird part of his two, because the f b I didn't take it the case right away: should have been a state case. It's should have been stay troopers it a ban the attorney general office involved, but but he kind of stepped back and there like. Okay, let the state college police take this and we're talking about a department, the head, like three police officers. They weren't prepared for a missing district attorney, but
bigger agencies are like no let them handle it. Is that because the bigger agencies had access to the information that creature was by that we knew he was disappearing in and you know let him go. That's weird like they. It should have been a bigger case, but it was left to the smallest department that could have been involved was yeah I'd left her first, but then everybody else then comes and but maybe they all come in to go see. Will we tried maybe hush hush yeah. It looks like at some point, but the f b. I work. really ever involved with the hunt for it. As far as we can tell, this becomes involved in it eventually, and they seem to step in and do their investigation, but at every turn the Gee seems to like kind of scuttle, you know and just weird we silent about it or
yeah. Just it there's a lot of weirdness surrounding why the the people put in charge where this, this very small police department, to what do you think he had a hunch die of no hunch. I just I personally, I just a lot of reasons to not walk away. That's what I keep coming back. Two I was unaware about the bank. Account thing right because in in this is kind of a vague, broad statement. But when you look into this case, you know they say well, they checked his bank accounts. They checked is credit cards, they checked his phone records and there was found no loose right. Now, that's kind all they leave you with. So you assume when I read that statement, I assume, while all as well now that they found no clues. Well, no bank account. That's it. That's a clear is clear here. I think the
What would you gotta go back tat exactly how they work in newspaper accounts. Do because they're very careful, the semantics of that but they're like here we go we looked into his accounts, but we found no. I you know something like no evidence there to suggest or whatever, but the fact yeah exactly right. The fact that there is no money in there. I should tell you something: that's a big thing yeah! But what does that point too, because as I can point to suicide, pretty easily here's this guy that exist. I didn't say anything now worked a bunch of years, but nothing to show for it cars niven in his own name and so even walk away. This guy he's very meticulous in every other part of his life. I would think you would be very meticulous about his financial. Situation that so is it just said that the fact that there is no money ass to be some training
actions on those accounts he I think there were some. I don't know how much but we're talking about. I mean I think it's like hundred a couple. Hundreds of dollars in, like a you, know, an account that was left when he disappeared and no assets by the way everything else was in everybody else's name like like his girlfriend's or his wife's name He never had assets. So we have a successful de who disappear is and then, when you look into his financial background, if you didn't know his job or, though length of his career. You would assume you're looking at some. Twenty seven year old, dude that living paycheck, the paycheck not even that is the the transaction history that and up the right So it's almost like you're looking at a fifteen year old kid as a savings account with its father's name on it, and he only puts money in it when he gets his birthday or I or christmas you I mean
my great coming out. That's what are you do as a banker. So now people on that level would have their own. Personal banker would have a portfolio share, especially prosecutors that re like stocks in bonn, Jeff and building up for retirement. That can go away pretty quickly and that could be a motive right, because that would be the other motive to as like. Well what if he didn't have all this money and he was divorce twice, I don't want to Alan idea had all why I would want to know how you is caches checks, and that would be a big question for me. I was a cash and checks, because this is there would be a motive in all our people would go you need to put money in the bank as a banker for a long time, and we a bunch of really rich retired the guys in their sex, he's an eighty that
they had really small counts low activity, but they came the bank every week and I know there were destroyed, power in their money at their house. Nevertheless, in a safe or whatever cause, they trust because of that I am like that they didn't trust the banks, now, not aid entrust the base because the depression, but why would you trust the banks, or have any assets when your last, possibly with your last divorces. I would be public record of what they got. the divorce her. So if he got me now taken to the cleaners twice than inflation, why I'm gonna, take all my money and put in the mattress- and I say, Or something, but that would also become another reason for motive one of his friends or somebody found out a you know this guy. Doesn't
put any money in the bank right right and he doesn't have all these assets and he took all his money to his hides in the way greek cares got like one hundred thousand in cash sitting in his house. Yeah yeah that'd be a motive that doesn't explain. The computer, though while, but the computers not weird as the searches yeah, the google searches of how to you know, destroyed the hard drive. The police wondered if he had a journal. On the computer, that he was a personal journal that was written being or you know, he's district attorney is that where he kept all the dirt. He had on everybody else and and somebody's get real scared. Cause he's up for retirement is in a transfer that dirt file over to the next prosecutor right again were gone around and in was a movie jack
However, our though he every time there is a new person- and it is, I called mission- was to get the dirt file now share and then give it to me. I don't worry, I got my own copy, I mean so they re right, maybe some of those dirt files and some eight though within two about the searches. Would they be able to know when those searches happen like was it you know that day I dunno, because if it's that day it could really be he and the murders hands? They don't go ahead. I'm sorry! I I think o the yet the searches from home where you like how to destroy a hard drive right. I think that was from the night before I think I think I've read that that
It happened. Okay, so those searches were actually gone from his home computer, not the computer that he shared with his girlfriend right. It's nice to travel down there to data they caught happy valley. It's beautiful, I mean yeah just to just a beautiful drive and I always picture him. You know jetting through the valley, and you know looking for these antique stores and maybe going it'd, be an excellent place to do the you know the spy drops you know at a park, you know put it underneath the park bench and rihanna take off and your handler comes in. I hope these in slovenia you know eaten some fish and whatever they do in slovenian he's living It- does show right now gone. Dot org and mamma, if you could time travel, do you brought it up? So here we go time, travel back to a decade
you have. Does one pop immediately in a mind? Oh for sure, I definitely it without a doubt. Go back to the sixties. pre, pre hiv free? I a free drugs. That sounds like a very fun time. How you, oddly enough, oddly enough, I would pick the sixties well alright pretty different for different reasons. Yet I mean that was the I gave the assassinations. You know how sharia there's a lot of question. He wants to go back to shoot some people, it's similar to your book man on primrose light where he goes back and he's he's aware of this victim and he these. If he can follow her around long enough there.
in intercept the killer or her abductor stopped the crime from happening. It's like, like the captain, said here by a quantum leap, get enough to sit there like is Jeff case coming down the, though, with the motorcade safe, anybody really wise in that grassy, no or pekin ever that the fanfares deafness in the grass and you have to do, Three, the it's in the Warren report lobby lot know that in the end the Warren report, they claim that there was possible shots from the as in also the government hasn't like fully dismiss this de. I really think what happened that day is the is somebody contracted three different people, and they didn't tell the other ones yeah, you know. So he had this. and whoever was gonna get busted was gonna get busted, you ah
in four years. So now that we're on the time traveling. So we we said what decade or so. But what case would you solve our one hundred percent Amy malbec in I'd, be I'd, be right at the plaza. You know at at the end of the day as she's coming in just to see who comes up to her and whether you could stop it though yeah yeah yeah absolutely. But but if you do that, I mean in the realm of fiction. So you ve got James runner showing up a nineteen, eighty, nine and the sky. up to emu, Mahela of economic hundred per cent of got the killer, whereas I pummel him to death or whatever, and so then, Oh I'm in prison and until next week from sunny florida?
Transcript generated on 2023-05-28.