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back in july of nineteen. Ninety four, the chief had been off at college the bash was living up in canada. There visiting with a tv family in Bellevue washington, where his sister lives as well. They ve been there for days by this point. They go out for a night on the town they go out to alight dinner, followed by we and then in some drinks. Afterwards, they come back to a tv parents home and they I find that all three members of a tv family brutally murdered Call nine when one they run outside waiting for the police to arrive, and she we afterwards. We start to see some things may, or may not point to sebastian in a team as the guilty party, my or at least the number one suspects correct Well, they are definitely, I think, we're seeing a law,

of actions by the Bellevue police department. That would show them the day at least believe this sebastian entity had committed these men, and where we left off yesterday. The two had turn to Sebastian. Parents, home in canada were they would remain there right in that first, a teeth and Sebastian are very cooperative with the police and long spent. But now, under the vice of attorney their lawyer, they say: hey, don't cooperate anymore, yeah end, but we do sebastian family and the friends of both the boys, can a rallying around both both of them, believing them to be totally innocent right. and so now that the they stop cooperating with the bellevue police department. The detective there remember this is detective Simpson, who is leading the investigation he decided to keep digging into the boys, passed an heath, on what he thought was a bit of a disturbing clue from their past. He,

discovered he discovered that Sebastian was in drama club, yes, and as disturbing he was acting It was an actor adored yeah. He found there The disturbing clue was that Sebastian was in high school play called rope about two kids who commit the perfect murder yeah that tactics, believed the haunting fictional murder story. Inspired the real life crime and even more chilling. The weapon used in the story was the same as what was used to kill the rafale family, a baseball bat right. Have you ever seen this play? No, I'm, not I'm not so what's kind of interesting about it is they have this murder victim right and they put this murder victim in a box, and so you see this at the big. in the play, and then there's this party in their inviting all the guest in and as their invent vice.

The guest, and they know that there is a certain number of gas right. But what nobody at party knows is the final guessed that they're waiting on is it in the box and in the victim is then review Yes, there is actually a very like dark, comedy aspect to this, because based off of what or else that makes sense when you throw in comedy I'm thinking, why are they showing? Why are they acting out a murder plot as a high school play by But when you say comedy, I ok I'm with you now. Yes, others. Theirs

these scenes in the play where the audience kind of laughs, because you they know what's in the body, know what's in the box. Yes, oh it's very sad, but you know so one yes. This is odd. That he's in this play about this thing in an odd that, though weapon used in that case was a bat that is on that's a pretty weird coincidence, but it's also dark comedy p and it's like. I don't know to me. This seems like grabbing at straws. It's a stretch it is a leap. My friend I mean it, I get it. It doesn't. it certainly doesn't rule them out we can say, does unroll them, but it can but yeah you're not gonna, get a guilty conviction off of the deadlock makes no doubt be like some detective could now go into your past, my past, and they could basically accused of

accuse us of any crime in america because of our past well right We know that the murderer was a cannibal and we do know that the second episode of true crammed gay ridge was on Jeffrey Dahmer, so they must have killed these people now it doesn't work that way. Yeah yeah, it's it's a stretch, is a leap, a bet As the investigation continued teeth in Sebastian, they are living in vancouver their spending, some of the money that a team inherited from his parents estate might what they bought a convertible, we rented an apartment go ahead, so the police start. Thinking that you know a teeth's motive in Sebastian's motive would be the fact that there'd be insurance policy on a t v family and he was going to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars because, like we said his family was definitely upper class

and like I said they were renting an apartment but also living at the apartment, with the teeth and Sebastian is their old high school power. This is Jimmy my oh. She Now they are living. There living well, but they are hiding from the media up in canada, because the media. They were in constant pursuit of Sebastian. And especially a tief because of their store yeah. So, even though that their family and friends believed that they were innocent because the the went to the media said: hey these guys fled america to not get charged with these crimes now and care Most people find them to be guilty yeah, and I think I read one news

paper article or maybe was a magazine article that referred to Sebastian in a team as the most popular murder suspects in vancouver, right or, and some some people would argue all of king yeah yeah. So but speaking of story, he's a teeth in sebastian working carting, their own story. This was one that they started working on their very screenplay about two best friends accused of murdering a family, and they called the screen play the great despiser right and in the movie or in the script anyways their innocence, Boca errors. So that's the scream play it. So it's not about these guys, then I did actually committed the murder got away with it there there, the great despise right so basically a lot about what they were gone through and, like I said there is this whole community that thought these guys word the number one.

You guys that murdered people got away with it another in canada and in most these guys can get a job. Anything so at least there are trying to do something with their time. Well, this will too, as to january of nineteen. Ninety five. So, roughly six months after the murders, the bellevue investigators they met with the see the royal canadian mounted police just a clue, some people, and if your curious, the arcy mp, as both a federal and national police force of canada size, like the cia and the fbi all rolled into one yet she could say that I would. I would consider it to be more like the fbi of the great united states, south America still got my cut.

The bellevue detectives met with the arcy mps. This is their serious crimes unit to discuss the case of the rafale trouble. Homicide plant bellevue investigators were requesting biological samples. They wanted hair blood in saliva samples from bash and burns and a teeth were Faye and they wanted the arcy mp to help get them those apple's war on one of the reasons. Why was they found a a single hair strand on a teeth's father on on the bed in the bed in which he was murdered from so they wanted to test that something to compare to to either maybe make that arrest. They were seeking or eliminate them as suspects. The c m p, the officers agreed to to do this to conflict. to obtain these biological samples for them

and then they offered up what they refer to as the mr big strategy to obtain a confession. Right so explain this, because we don't actually have the mr big strategy in america. Well in that's what confused me when I went away so I'll. Tell you my knowledge of this case, as it were a month ago right I had I, in this case I had probably seen it I dont know on on date, liner. Forty eight hours are one of those shows. Many many years ago up we're talking, probably ten years ago. I would guess, and so I remembered hearing of the story and it's a very interesting story- that the thing is, though, this mr big strategy that they use that they were going to talk about. I thought this like a one time deal and then once we got, we start looking at this case in throwed under the microscope two weeks ago.

and diving into this thing found out that this is something they ve used, multiple I mean time and time again to the to the point where it's just like a common. It's a common thing that Canada does and its is going to sound strange. So here's the the general idea of the MR big operation is this: you you have some law enforcement that hose as mobsters, basically an what they're going to do is they are going to try to employ a suspect and they're going to give this person job they are going to have them commit crimes and get paid for the for their actions and through the course of building What they're going to do is try to build a relationship. You're gonna, build a employee employer relationship and, through the course of beer, that relationship, because they're both criminals well

you, my employer, you can confide in me things that you ve done in your past in your dark past. Things that you're not proud of things that you ve gotten away with so I know that you're a legit criminal like I am and therefore I'm going to eventually get this information on tape there be audio visual and I'm going to be able to use that against you for your previous crops rain. So that's a form of entrapment and we don't use that and the states. This is not admissible courts. So this is how it's going to go down in this particular incident on April ten nineteen, defied the arcy mp investigators day intercepted a phone message confirming a salon appointment with Sebastian, birds and We should probably point out that at this point, the arsenal Of already tapped their phones for my understanding and that's how they they acquired this phone mess a trap,

So there are going to use this information to make their move. When, sir, she left the salon, someone approached him. The person a man asked Sebastian for a ride somewhere, the stranger then took so bash into a bar and bought him a drink. You know for his trouble for driving him. He claimed that car broke down here, man, a town and stand in this hotel. Can I get a ride? Gimme, a I the hotel, they probably have a lobby bar or by a nice drink for the further gesture sebastian the stranger that he and his buddies. They were working on a screen play an sebastian said that he didn't have a in. He needed financing to get this screenplay too, to the big screen

the stranger said he knew someone who could help Sebastian now, of course. Ultimately, the goal here, like we said, is to get Sebastian to meet with the next guy up the chain. You know this is going to be the the mobster or the boss guy, but initially they kind of played this guy off as not that he's going to get you jobs, but this guy possibly might just invest into your film, and so when he meets you know this next guy, which is not higher up or lower. I think it's kind of a sidestep, but it's more like well yeah. I can't really finance this, but I'm going to give you some jobs yeah and I think that the way that they, scribes. This person to Sebastian is that he was a connected business. Man that we're going to introduce you to, but who he actually met was sergeant hazlitt of the arcy mp. working under cover, posing as a lobster and their first

meeting that he had. The sergeant hazlitt had with Sebastian was in a strip club yeah, so which look again. This is not uncommon. as far as I know, a lot of artist know this were musicians now this guy's that are quite unquote business men that want to help our artists or whatever sometimes they just want to be around it. You know I've. I've worked with a lotta, you know executive producers or guys that ran small wreck record companies that they they were just fans of music, but they were. But as equally fans of music, they wanted to be at the after party after the show. Now they wanted to be like play rock star without actually be in one c trust me, there's been a million trips have taken to nashville or somewhere to audition for a record company, and where does the manager you out afterwards a strip club. You know whether or not you wanna go that's where they take you

void the ones that have a buffet. I'll, tell you on the other, on the old check. The other thing no captain is so it's he supposed to be a mobster right and it's very, very sopranos. I think that take him to a strip a fourth for the initial meat, ass, very hollywood, you kind of cells, the part a little bit in it in a very cheesy way in my opinion anyway. So this this quota quote crime, boss heat also bashed in that he has cash to invest in his screenplay, but Sebastian would have to earn it he's got to earn his trust right. So the crime boss said that he had some jobs for Sebastian. He also had jobs for a teeth in Jimmy my oh, she is well right. They wondered sebastian first job, would be driving a stolen vehicle from point a to point b:

and Sebastian agrees to this. He does the job and he gets paid two hundred dollars for that job. The next job was was a bit. her well or more lucrative good, because the Sebastian you know, and as a pettiness, that's what he is on their knees. yeah when you see interviews with them, he comes off so cocky, sometimes, and I He knows that he's doing it. I don't think he knows as bad as it is, but you know he was caught up, sir. I did something illegal and I got paid to honour box like I'm. Taking a risk. I'd need their knees. bigger reward right right here. He feels like it's a bit grimy that did. He has to do so. Take such a big risk for that's a little reward right. So then, what they do is the next one is the runner lie money there taken money from one bank to another bank and jimmy me. Oh right is gonna, be

Yes, one! Yes, so in the idea is pretty simple instructions here. I think they have Sebastian going in a one bank jimmy going into the next one so forth and so on. At the end, day there doing a pretty easy job laundering. This money just visiting banks making bank stops and their pay two thousand dollars: cash, yeah or one days worth of work as not bad money case money you know, but don't, under money. Don't do that not suggesting that any listener laundered money so through them Early part of this relationship between Sebastian. In this, mr big, I think he did it by the name owl or something like that? A l and the one who wants to be with you know like a gag gift vouchers: okay, okay, so anyway, during the course of

Sebastian did not. He didn't admit to any gill in the triple homicide right, but at some point he does confide in the mobsters that, if police did find something that Could potentially tie him to the crimes that he might want them to destroy that effort? yeah kind. What happened was there talking about hey Guys are the most famous people in canada, for young corn, quote Guenaud yell away with murder and there. Like Hell, they don't have any evidence and the guy you know when they say he tat. You know Sebastian was saying oh yeah? Well, if they found evidence, we want you to get rather that that was implied by the MR big up operation, they're the ones our were saying- hey yeah, but you know like if they did find something. Would you want to get together. We have that ability have that ability. We know some people well there. up the stakes here and what they do

They present a memo to two sebastian, and this thing is it's not oh, but it looks very real. It's on Bellevue police, let her head detailing the evidence linking Sebastian to the murders and the mobsters offer to destroy this evidence. The the evidence it's listed on this memo on again they're, also not saying that they found it that the Bellevue police department found this evidence. They're saying that this is a part of the evidence that they're claiming that they've found cause they're going to frame. You use what I'm saying so. A lot of people think it's as clear cut thing where MR big said: hey: they got this evidence, you're busted, no cause the bass and was like they dont have evidence cause we didn't do the crime seems ain't right, and so then they were saying. Well, it doesn't matter. If you did the crime or not. This is what they're going to use. This is what

Burglar said a right. There said in you up, so let us be clear about that, so their offering to destroy this this evidence there offering to make this problem go away. Forces force a bitter sebastian say, but in order to do so, mr big, he once Sebastian do tell them exactly what happened in the rafale house, the knight of the murders. So now this takes us to July. tina ninety ninety five just about one year, after the murder Sebastian meets with hazlitt. He meets with MR big, the quote: unquote. Undercover mob dude right at the ocean point resort at some hope hell and they have hidden cameras rolling here set up the film. This whole thing an sebastian walks into the hotel room. He takes off issues, he gets comfortable on the couch, her love seat, it he's a cock, yes obi and he starts talking and

I'm not sure if its, if its both videos but on on one at least one of them he's having. It looks like drinking beer, while he's talking with this. Mr big, why think that film them for a few hours yeah and he he arts confessing to the murders, and we will not get it will get into what was said in just a minute, but it will go through some questions in the answers as well, but the key thing here is apt he's done confessing to MR big the next day he returns were next day. Sebastian comes back through the mobster this time he's bringing his buddy a teeth with him to the crime boss, to tell his side of the story, which ends up being recorded as well, thereby Jimmy? My oh? She takes ends up talking with the crime boss as well, and this seals this seals

neil Sebastian the teeth in my oh. She they end up being arrested for things that they said to MR big on tape. When arrest did immediately. Sebastian is going to say that he was a lie right and they under cover officers had intimidated him into making a false confession Let's take a second and talk about two of the grossest words in the english language. Dog food dog food is literally how we describe food, so grow our tongues. One touch it with a ten foot pole, economic sense. Kibble is,

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fine more balance with better help. And all right bloody hell. She is me make is captain, let's get into the confession and we got a lot of stuff to get too. I want a kind of give a quick little, the short version of how they confessed the martyr what they actually did according to their confession. That was videotaped in front of this, MR big character, right. So what what Sebastian is safe is that we know that they went out to dinner. They go a movie, and then they go out to us, their club afterward and we have the people that can confirm having seen them at the restaurant, waited on them at the restaurant, having taken their drink order at the movie after,

at the club after the movie, but basically what what sebastian going to say is that the time They were supposed to be in the movie theater watching the movie is wind returned to the repay home and killed the chiefs parents and sister and he says that he he was the one that use the bat that he attacked achieves mother first and then he went and killed the father, and then he killed while attacked the teeth sister to the point where she was left for dead right and he claims a team was based. clearly in another room, the whole time yeah he's he's kind of setting up in making the break in thing. Look like it actually happen he's he would be the one I'm guessing too in over the boxes in opening drawers, they cleaned selves up Sebastian took a shower, and

they make sure that they get back to that location where they are then seen again after the movie, so their whereabouts are accounted for. They have alibis for what they were doing that night. Making them lie like they were, it would have been impossible for them to have killed the rafale family. That's their confession: let's go, let's go through it. Let's go through this a little bit more because we, obviously this is very obvious that it makes them look guilty. But what we have now we have a lot of people scream that no there are portions of that confession. The did act we point to their innocence and because we have to ash saying all this stuff is a lie. Yeah, we confessed to MR big into his crew, but all this stuff was a lie. Moray interests giver said

want to question and have Sebastian confess, but then they're going to have a teeth confess as well, and if you take those two stories, there are a couple of things that don't line up between a tif story and sebastian story, and then, when you take their buddy Jimmy comes in and his story, he doesn't really cooperate much at all. He doesn't really a much at all. He basically you almost could say he doesn't confess. I run he he's. He doesn't confessed any wrong wrong doing himself and I think that at the most that he confesses for as far as a teeth in Sebastian are concerned, I think he kind of points to one right and this, as you know, who did it while back, I write their right and it's again important to know that once their arrested sebastian Latif an jimmy all will state hey. We lied. Where were innocent

So the first thing that is pointed out by by all the people stating that these young men are innocent and this confession is not real- is sebastian clothing and what he says in his confession regard his clothing. Now this is all taken from the arcy mps transcription of the actual confession. Okay, so, regarding the clothing submissions, first explanation to out, I was right. Mr big is going by our is that he disposed of his clothes he wore when he murdered the rafale family? They point out that this is false confirm this abash and wore the same clothes both before and after the murders were committed the transcription during the confession. He says I'll, ask bloody clothes

on your clothes? Why not? Why didn't you have any blood on your clothes burn states because they were gone? He had disposed of these clothes. Where did you get rid of him in like a dumpster downtown? right. So we know that part of his story lie, but the other thing was at some point. He also states that he committed the crimes naked. Yes, so again, maybe he's line that he got rid of em. Maybe not. Maybe he took the closer kill them underwear? There was two sets of underwear that were found in a washing machine in a chief's house supposedly belonging to a tif and sebastian. There was no physical evidence on those clothings they weren't washed. So to me that was placed the hair somebody yeah and then when he tells he being sebastian when he tells his story to ouch

aging his story that he committed the murders without any clothes on. That's when he says you know that's what the shower was for. He took burn states that he took a shower to clean off, and his exact words are took a shower to clean off you, no blood in that kind of stuff, yeah right, yeah and in the end, then the thing about eighteen. When they talk about the clothing, with a teeth he's saying: oh yeah! Well, some of this stuff we thrown dumpsters, but some stuff we threw out the window. Now we should about the blow out the window, but throughout the window of a moving car right and what we should really talk about, is the evidence that was in a tv fathers room based off the the blood splatter or spatter spatter evidence. There is possibly to definitely to individuals, but most likely three individuals.

In that room, which again, we have three suspects so that wouldn't rule them out. But again when Sebastian is telling his confession he santa while a tif is not even in the room at the time, so certain things just I, but we also have sebastian stating that jimmy my oh. She did not participate in the martyrs bright. So according to surveys, scan fashion, there's only two people committing those crimes right and like it said, there's evidence there's ever to suggest that there could be three people in the room. I want to be clear about that, because one thing that I have definitive right: here's one thing that here's one big problem I have with with this case in particular in see this with other cases when you get a whole mob of people claiming that somebody's innocent. They start queuing things just as much as we ve seen police, skew things, a media skewed that right they skewing

it's going to be presented to you that that day, totally this wrong and hears. Why and their there our websites. There are newspaper articles there are and there's plenty of stuff out there on this case that have presented that it's factual, that three people had to have been in that room right and- and we should be clear, it's evidence suggest the possibility of three people being in the room, definitely to possibly three one oh, we talked about the hare that was found on the bed that did not match any of these individuals in it did a match any of the victims. It didn't match any of the suspects so, but you could argue one could make an argument that that's either the actual killer, or this is some piece of dna evidence that was that randomly got there while right, because they nettled there wouldn't new to the area

So you know their rights. There's gonna be dna of whoever's been in that house yo and who ever lived in the house before that them well, and I think I heard one one expert pointed out the best when it when to me anyway regarding that hair, and he stated that you know. Could this been a hare that achieves other somehow it got it. You know he sat down in his car seat and his hair was on the car seat, got transferred to his pants and then got transferred to the bed right. That's a possibility! Could this hair have herr, that was on the movie theater theme that movie theater seat. That Sebastian was sitting in transfer to his pants and then somehow transferred to the bed either during the course of the attack or during the course of finding the by.

one? I think it's back to the original point that you're trying to make, though, if we have eye witnesses claiming they they saw Sebastian the teeth, this certain outfit and then after the movies. You see him in the same outfits that you would think that this be part of their master plan, and that Sebastian would remember this. So when tell on mr big hey this: went down. He was at all, and I came up with this clever things where I will take off my clothes kill them in the nude I'll. Take a shower not put these clothes back on thou, be pretty simple to remember, the obviously didn't remember that or it can happen and there and that's where the store his start, not making I sense, yeah, and I and I wanted to be clear and point out how random that hair could have been, how possibly random that hair could have been according to that expert's opinion, and so that doesn't necessarily rule them either correct it doesnt rule them out, but it also could point to

an unknown unknown, suspect. The next thing need to talk about and regards the confession is the baseball bat, the weapon that was believed? have been used to kill the repay family and the concern with this. Our, MR big one it's to know what happened with the bat brain ah, and where did you get the bat well in their confession? Sebastian in a tif have a hard time explaining where they got. The bat I think at one point sebastian says I may have been the one that purchase the bat and I believe, a tief says that the was just lying around right, as I think the disposable how they disposed. The bat was also a little fishy. Yes, because this is where they're talking about those dumpsters where they stated the they won't find the bat, because we put it in one of those dumpsters dumpsters that were down

town to which MR big is going to explain to them. Well, you know what david you commit these murders he says well was a tuesday so we're dumping. These items on tuesday night in these dumpsters and MR big says. Well, you just hope in that situation the date they didn't do those dumpsters that tuesday morning, because then they would come back until the following tuesday and that evidence could sit there and could be found through the course of than the room. The weak right same thing with the the vcr as well. What did you do with the vizier? We buried it in a dumpster and what are we, by buried, it's like they. They got in the dumpster amongst trash and rubbish inside and they buried these items in the trash right and then and then you come Can you make a man one call and the police common, but you don't look to shovel than yourself? Fresh, so clean clean out is

worried about. Mr big is worried about fingerprints, and this is when sebastian says there will be no fingerprints, because he wore gloves. Mr big continues to express insert that later, the back could be located and that sebastian prince would be on that bat right or that there be able to trace how he bought the back. To this point, Sebastian tells, mr big that the bat was shrink wrapped in plastic rap during the murder which this is scientifically incorrect. This this could not have happened because there were small pieces of the bat that were lodged in the wall at the scene of the murders, and there was no thrive. There would be wrapped, it would beat have been found with that, and that was not the case before we move on from this item of discussion. While we're talking about gloves

We should point out that later a fingerprint expert testified that the murderer did not wear gloves, then that this person, this expert, would have found glove mark sought rag at the scene. So does another part of his confession. It doesn't make laws sent one thing that will be pointed out time and time again is that this stories change, ok, whether it be that your speech, with Sebastian, one on wandering this convention tape or whether you be it, the you're speaking what the teeth. The that sebastus story will change inch as he goes along and achieve story will change as he goes along. I agree with this because there is some different. Nation that each of them are putting out from time to time. There One thing that I have a big problem with, though, when people want to point out that the stories change right is. If anybody has watch this, video taped confession

and if for those of you who have not just to explain it, scribe it in you know better for you It's not like tuning in The garage and after a nick are going through a store. we're going through a murder and how it happened from from the very beginning, all the way through the end brain. It's not like that at all. That's not this confession. This confession is We have Sebastian sitting on a couch and he's being asked. Questions he's being asked a question, sometimes he's giving one or two word answers and other times he might give you a sentence, but he had no point is giving expansive answers. He's at no point giving a horse a complete story. Rarely does he even get through one point completely and mr big who

is the one that is the expert in drawling out these confessions, confessions that he he knows is going to videotaped and later shown two investigators and then annually to a jury. Once this thing goes to trial, he's jumping all over the place with his questions and, in my opinion, in ease like a what we have. The bad news gets like a to word answer these like okay. So why no blood on your clothes and gets a short answer, then he's like ok. What about fingerprints on the back in it what a what I hear to me, What I am hearing in this confessions, especially with Sebastian, is now so much a story that is changing completely I'll. we feel like on most of the points. Not all I wanna be clear, not all the points, but on most of the points. Feel like what I'm getting is a little bit of the truth, and then later I'm

be getting a little more of the truth. On that exact point yeah, possibly in its a weird thing too Did you have a cocky individual with Sebastian, which is you know, thinks he's now your than thou? Maybe one the smartest people in the world, and then you have these cops. That also think that their brilliant as well trying to corner him- and I you know- is the whole convention- is really hard to watch, because the acting of the police officers or so or law enforcement is so awful. They they try to come off. As you know, these mob sturbed member guys and this comes so poorly. I mean everything as fuck, this fuck that you know like it's, it's just so it it's like. This is basically like they tell them at parts awe of the investigation that I old people right, but instead the same while you know I've killed people to their like. I killed that mother fucker not stabbed and mother volume,

he's in a shot him ran in his face and but fucked him with his fuckin gun. I mean it's just so over the top that one. How can sebastian of you so smart not see through bullshit well in? It's weird, because I know that these officers have, I should say I know I wasn't there with them, but I'm assuming that they ve received extensive training in this area is so bad. But really I know I reference sopranos earlier. I love that show I miss that show, but I really think you could have you. Could sat a few people town him had he watches seasoned sopranos, give him alive their jacket and a handgun. send them into this hotel room and they could have pulled off the same. They could have put off the same react, let's say hm well, unless, let's be devil's advocate for a second. So why would a tif? Why would sebastian confess to a crime that they didn't commit?

What's there motivation? Well, the motivation is they want to get financed for this screenplay? They want, they want to put their art on the big screen and they need dollars to do so and they. Really believe- and I think Sebastian even quoted- saying you know? We believe that if we were in fact found innocent for this crime while heart are movies, gonna make mill, it's millions of dollars, right, and so one of the thirty million was what he said. Is that what he said? And you know it's funny that you you say there, he fashion may think that he's not only the smartest guy in the room, but possibly one of the smartest people on the planet. I think he even says that at some point during the confession brent, when he's asked, if he's house marty see as he says most, will

Most intelligent people on them yeah there. I said that, because I did the research keep up. Ah anyways That's it. I don't know if that's their motivation, because I really think they're motivation from there views that I listen to with a team that he's been doing lately. I think he did one with the fit state. Their motivation. More was hey. I got involved with these bad deeds and now they for me to do more stuff for them. They need to know that oh work were reliable people that they, we can believe them, and so

As much as they're going okay, so now you need to tell me about these murders. They were afraid that if they Didn'T- or this is what they claim sebastian and teeth were afraid that if we don't say we committed these murders that these guys will think that we're just some chumps that are going to rat them out and they have given us. Example, after example, that we ve killed people and a lot of times when he saying that they killed people. He said all while this guy cross me so I killed him or this I try to turn me in so I killed him. So it's it's really one is nefarious and one its irresponsible for when MR big, when you hear them talk and they say, did you ever threatened these guys they

I know we we never threatening them no, but during the confession he just keep brain and not that you killed people that toll on you, you I mean and that you ve killed all these people. So it's not wrong to have these young adults than are not the they're, not so streets mark to believe that and to believe that you are capable of murder and if I did you know, I just want to tell you this to to get your money back of. Does that mean? Well, they they made every attempt to sell that point and being mr big and the people working for him are supposedly working form and I'll give you some more. Civic detail regarding this intimidation factor, because I I I heartily agree with the intimidation factor here. I think this is. I think this is wrong and

you and I had a conversation last week. In one thing we were talking about, was you when we talked about the yogurt shot murders from Austin Texas, they got confessions from a couple of those from too. Those four guys and one of the confessions was obtained after an officer, took an unloaded hand, gun and put it to the back of the head of of one of the people. He was trying to get confess this me while not that dramatic? This to me is borderline the same thing, but we got guns on the table right and that's what I'm gonna get into that this border line, the same thing we hit. We have surpassed A direct quote from Sebastian is. I believe that if I crossed them, they would have killed me and so we have MR big. We also have this character named Gary Gary can he scene

yeah he can be seen on and off camera during the confessions and at one point Gary tells Sebastian that he was a murderer and that MR big had hired him to contract some kill Gary also says You want to know what I did my time for gary tell Sebastian that he toasted a guy o Gary here, and he he says you wanna know how solid mr big is well when it came time or gary to go to court, and there was a person that could testify against him, him in prison. He states what a person in around anymore. So you know that business gets taken care of gary further explain that to Sebastian that, MR it had paid eighty thousand dollars to kill this witness then one point: you have a third undercover officer, pretending to be an employee of gary and mr big. He end the room to any

rose down to hand guns on the table in front of sebastian indicated that a person had just been shot with one of those guns, so will we we reference the intimidation factor here. It's real this I mean this is some yes and is more real fur, like I said not street wise young adults, as more real for any two people sitting in that room and but here's where I have a problem with right, but what I'm saying is, if you had a couple guys that our low more street wise, like within a few conversations ye go something's up with this. You know so I, you're saying that this is a ruse something's, not right right right, I smoke. I smell bacon either. Smart is Sebastian thinks he is he he certainly was out

where did in this situation of real dumb ass, the problem that I have with Sebastian saying. I agree what I agree with the two intimidation to some extent. What what I have a problem with his when I see you on camera in his eye, his mannerisms and no point at no point on camera. Does he appear to be nervous? what does he appeared to be intimidated at times? smiling when he tells the order of of hooey killed, and and how he killed the individual's evan. Again, you can't read too much to that because a mini the absurdity of what he is saying could be less serious to him so really hard to like go look if he didn't do the crimes and look ever base as well. How can even say this stuff? He knew them but you're in a hotel room. You just did money laundering is, but there

Are you doing any ways, but now, you're sitting there explaining that you killed these people and the ridiculousness of it like just because smiling or even laughing at in a team did the same thing. You know it's hard to comment on that stuff. We don't know. What's going on inside I don't know what's going on in his head, but I'm going to read into it. I'm going to comment on it, because I one thing that we both agreed upon is that one, this abortions very proud of self proud of is how intelligent he thinks he is, and win, he's when he's answering these questions here getting up in a way where he's like I'm to me. This is what it looks like the guy that thinks. Oh here I am, the guy that pulled off these three murders and now I'm the one that's getting to school. This harden criminal, I'm getting to school, this career criminal, on how I pull this off and why I'm

smart. Why did it without any clothes on, so I wouldn't getting blood on my clothes. Why didn't you have blood on? You took a shower. Why? Oh, you know what winded he'd go down during the movie you know any you see him light up when he says these things? That's sorry, but that's I mean that's what I see on on the tape and this add part. To is that I see that from a teeth as well. When he's when he's asked to give historically speaking, specifically about his family, whether he was involved or not. He smiling at times by regimes. Enjoying confessing to to this again, you have to take into account that these are edited versions of the confession. Tapes I mean multiple times before the confession starts Sebastian still denies that they had anything to do with it multiple times. I think somethin. Ridiculous, like ten fifteen times, worries that they had nothing to do with it. When I

is brought in its to pay. These guys are basically said light. They would kill. Me kill everybody else. If we agree on it, I need to know we're on the up and up again it's a edited confession. What a lot of lot of stuff you don't see is how much he's fishing for answers. You see it a little bit, the confession tapes, he being sebastian or a teeth, a teeth, but both of em, because our times that there are both in the room together and when they have a question and in their like well was there or no, I bought the bat there's like discrepancies within the conversation like that they don't know Oh, I think we threw those out. I don't know what we did with those one. I hope these guys don't figure us out because if they figures out we're dead, so I think there's some acting that had to goal long, whether they're telling the truth or their line. I think they're in it in a situation where they try to add the actual tougher than what they were now jet in office

As you know, there was some mannerisms that I saw that could have pointed towards an since. I should play I out, if I'm not point out the other right, so you referenced teeth there are several times where you know a team is sitting in a chair and then to his life. If this Sebastian who's on the love seat right- and there are several times where a team is giving an answer any kind of slow giving the answer- and I see his eyes there not why during their looking at Sebastian in it's almost like a man, is he looking yazzi looking for help with his answer is looking for approval, whether he got at the imf nation, correct or not, and You pointed out by the time the teeth is confessing to this he's had a whole night of talking with Sebastian the night before before he's brought back the next more. You know before his brought there the next morning to tell his

the story so reasons why they would give this confession, but yet still be innocent, that that person's point out often are that their factually and accurate statesman did they gave that they do not contain realistic detail that the conventions are based entirely on media reports in various prompts and suggestions from MR big himself. But one thing that has pointed out is that the confessions contain absolutely no hold back evidence, evidence or information that only the killer would have known, I would add, want to address that lass that last little box there before we check that one off My concerns with that is: is there any hold back evidence? You know I made they couldn't They couldn't give a confession that would contain hold back evidence if there is not-

and we know that in cases that police like to do that- that you would ideally have hold back at evidence that only the killer or kill would know, but we also know from having looked at plenty of these that some they're just nothing got held back. Everything was out there. Everything was reported. Everything was in the media. On July, thirty first nineteen, ninety five- this is after having the confessions, sebaste burns in a teeth repay? They are charged with three counts of aggravated: first agreement, and jimmy my oh. She is charged with conspiracy to commit murder right. They are incarcerated in vancouver, canada between the years of ninety ninety five and two thousand and one they remained incarcerated in maximum security, pre trial facilities and british columbia. That's six years now? Why would they stay in prison? For that long well

there are several reasons, but one being that there probably facing the death penalty once a return to the united states. There's usually some negotiation that goes down between the countries before their willing to send somebody back if they are in fact going to face the death penalty right and some interesting things here is so they argue and basically what the state of Washington says, a we're not going to seek the death penalty so therefore send him to us so bright and basically in canada, while the death penalty awhile go so ok that makes some sense, so now we're sending our citizens down there, but the weirdest stayin about it was the way they got these confessions. Were based on Canada. Law does not illegal here, the united states right, as you pointed out, mr big strategy, so so when they go into trial pretty quickly. They know that these confession tapes are going to be

we'll allowed in the courtroom having been incarcerated in the fall, ninety ninety five, jimmy my oh. She, he obtains immunity for his charge of conspiracy to commit murder in return for statements that would incriminate sebastian burns and a teeth were now. The trial begins in seattle, washington. This is in november of two thousand and three on the stand. My yoshi. He recounts a discussion with Sebastian and with a teeth regarding how they would commit the murders He states that he remembered hearing something about gassing the house and remembered a discussion about using a baseball bat. when asked why a baseball bat he says, I guess that it was it's a quick and painless way of killings. One a part of my oh she's statements in testimony that I think is the most damning.

and I'm sure the jurors felt the same way is when he's asked about a conversation of of their plan. A big part of their plan was this abashing in a team wanted to be in the rafale home and stay there for a few days before committing the murder, because this would explain away any fingerprint evidence. Any hair evidence any fibres. Any dna that may have been found of theirs at the crime scene. Yeah, that's gonna fishy, but I think the point that people forget about Jimmy is that when he was arrested, when he didn't have pressure on him, when the death penalty wasn't hanging over his head. His friends were innocent. They were lying about these confessions. His

me his demeanor during his tape. Confession was that he did not want to say this that he didn't want to go along with this idea and that he didn't believe that his friends were guilty of this crime. That's my gut feeling so now that he's being pressured that a if you don't cry, pirate book you're going to be facing the death penalty, which we all knew was a lie. Anyways again. Another tactic of you know strong, arming somebody into saying something that I don't know if it's true or not, so just because that there was that thing hanging over his head, the death pony hanging over his head, I dunno. If I

if anything, this guy says on may twenty, six, two thousand and four sebastian and a tif are convicted of three counts of first degree: murder, yeah and they both give kind of different statements and their final statements. Sebastian's final statements like over two hours, yeah yeah, it's unfair, is at least two hours long and not. His is more that this was unfair and this was unjust and arm, blah blah blah and a tif is more like you know. You know his saddened by all this yeah his his I loved my family, I loved my father, I loved my mother. I wouldn't have killed them and I don't know why anybody else would have killed them. So his his statements, sound remorseful sebastian don't sound remorseful, but if you believe what he saying, they don't need a sound remorseful because he's not guilty of anything.

Everything Sebastian says, makes him sound like a dick face. You know, so, do you think that they got it right? Do you think that the jurors got it right, mama? How about you start this one off? Ah, this is a if, if I start to tail spin out of control reel me back in here, okay, so I don't look at, and I dont know. I really don't know that's folds, closure, a complete honesty. I dont know because here's what chicken, but my gut, tells me that they, they probably did it. That's what my gut tells me The problem is. I can't find evidence to support that gut feeling here. thing. I do want to go through a couple of a couple of things that make may not point to their guilt bill. Go with. Workman leads you to the cause.

I do have a feeling I do like chopping down some of these things that people are like they're, innocent, they're innocent. You know in some of like we said about how things are presented and I'm going to go back to the there had to be three killers. Innovation in the room with MR rafale, when he was killed, and the reason why they state that there would have been three kill. Three people in that room as there is one person swinging, the murder weapon. There is a pillow that, because a boy, spatter evidence, we know was moved, it would have been on the bed during early part of the murder in it I've been moved to the floor eight, while the murder still being committed right. So there is no blood for a while. Then there's some blood evidence why there would be. A third person is because, in a location where a person would not have been able to move that pillow, there is as yet

there's a shadow, almost an outline of a person, the in big there's blood spat a round that shadow around that silhouette. So that would put one feeding the soul away at one moving the pillow one seeing the murder weapon I don't believe that to be the situation at all. I absolutely believe. All this points to me is that there were two people in that room, and reason being is ok, think about when you're taught cpr the first thing that they tell you is that if you find somebody unresponsive and they are in a bed while you need to get them in place them on a hard surface. Before you start performing, this cpr Why? Because, as soon as you do that, once you start pushing down on the victim, they're going to the bed is going to create them, so they start dancing or pushing back up its natural? It's gonna happen, so you put them on a hard surface. Think of

if somebody were swinging a bat on the victim laying in a bed, it's gonna create the same motion, a quake effect that would move the pillow from the bed to the floor so I don't know that there had to have been a third person in the room for that to take place, and the other thing that I question is We know the order of who was attacked. We know that the mother was attacked first and the father and then the sister again I don't know, I don't have a fool. you're standing of her autism, but here's one thing that I I wonder, and I hope that they check this with the blood spatter evidence. But is there a chance that the second person in the room didn't he to be a killer. Is there a chance that she is for some reason came? into that room and witnessed a portion of that murder before she was attacked theirs. It there likelihood that you have this evidence out there there may of

We be one guilty person in this situation. So what you are saying is that you think there's a possibility that this car was committed by one individual, and there was only one individual at the crime scene, possibly I wouldn't rule that out, I hope that they checked the t sister for certain evidence, dna evidence of her father? If that makes any sense, I think the other thing here, though, to as if there was to individuals right, we have a lot of blood in that shower. That to me could could have been one person, but it also makes sense that if there was multiple people there and they decided to clean up before they laughed, then that would explain amount of blood yeah that was wash yeah, I'm just simply stating that four people saying that three people had to commit committed this crime in that their

rules out the teeth and sebastian where I'm saying I don't believe that one bit. I need more proof that that more than two people were was a committed by one person or two people I don't know, but that that's the most I've gotten to as far as as number of perpetrators, the other questionable thing that I have here so those items might point towards more towards their guilt? You know if if there were only two people. There is but one thing that might point towards their innocence, and this is one thing that I had that I can't get over is the amount of overkill on the father? Okay, so they point out. they being the police that this is this points to somebody knowing the victim that that that a lot of times and crimes, we will soon see overkill because there's a deep hatred from the person killing the person to the victim is a deep hatred. Well,

not necessarily in this case the the the the perpetrator may, in fact, have known them. It doesn't have to be somebody close on their inner circle if Sebastian was in fact the one that was swinging- the murder weapon. What evidence do we have that he hated? This may So much did he hit him forty or fifty times when what we would he go to overkill? It seems to me like they. If, if in fact they killed the repay family, they simply did it for money that they simply did it too live together and have some money to finance their their goal, their dream- I guess overkill is not necessary. That's destroy reminding you that that's what a teeth! Gabon, sane and his confession was yeah. We did this for money. I guess

it rightly lakes in everything would write and that's what I mean they're there would be no reason for overkill now. Let me throw this action. We had those three tips. All three of those tips involve some form of of what you could say: Is an easy leap to religious hatred that somebody could hate. Another person for religious reasons Why would there be overkill on one victim, the father and not were killed on the other two victims. If you had somebody that was just busting into a place for a thrill kill You would see overkill on all three of these individuals right there trying to make a statement if you were looking in believed that monetary this was just a money. That money was the motive. You want see overkill on any of these victims. Whoever killed MR repay hated that man very badly run, which those which to me

I need I need. You would have to point out reasons why that would mean why that would implicate sebastian rain or an idle see those I just don't see it and I don't have a problem with the jury. I dont, problem with their final conclusion, with with the guilty verdict on both of these guys and the and being is, I think, the way that this case was presented to them and what was presented to them in court. I think it would be hard for me not to have given a guilty verdict as well. What I do have a problem with is this whole confession to begin with I don't think you should have ever been allowed in the court room, and I think, without this confession. You. You have no way to convict these guys, there's no way

there's. No way you could get me to go there guilty rashes couldn't do it. I think I think this confession is theirs. There's parts of it they do not ring. True to me, there are parts of it that I think, can our probable bogus it's one of those weird cases captain am, I got tells me. one thing that evidence shows me another and without this this is legal in the united states? This is the way they obtain. This can It is not legal in the united states. How can they use it in our court of law,

I dont, understand yeah what what the government argued for years about this case and what they rightfully decided was this crime took place in washington and will be tried in washington because that's where the crime took place, and so you should have to go off of that set of rules. So if somebody goes over to the middle east and there in a country where it's ok, to rip toes off or cut hands off, to get some eight and confess and not to get some eight confessed. Amr that took place a new work city and a transfer, the person from the middle east over to new york city. Where are we going to go with that confession? Are we going to allow that in, and I think I'm in this case these guys should be whether you think they're guilty

innocent or whether they're guilty or innocent. These guys should be set free for the fact that you made up the rules as you went along and that's not something that we should be doing as a system. A justice system is supposed to be the truth and justice and you didn't try to find either. The other thing. That's really disturbing about this case is that there was a jury member that was highly against this confession and it took notes of over two hundred and fifty. Maybe three hundred pages of notes, this jury member was before the verdict was taken place. They were excused from the trial and I feel like this is on. This was up. Tactic yeah, but I think from the beginning I mean there was like we're going to get this mister big up operation and we are going to get them to confess, damn we're going to get them down to you and then we're going to make sure that this goes

through an arm gazeta. They allowed in so much stuff that I think they'd to shun enough and I dont think we got a fair trial and it said that these geyser jail again, whether they did it or not. That's not. The point in the justice system are a captain. What are your other thoughts? Alright, so I think my gut feeling is that they are innocent, that they they they didn't do this. I don't think it was an enough of a motivation. You have a pretty wealthy family that seems to me helping you out doing things you're in a nice college. What's this yeah, I know it's a one hundred thousand dollars, and you think that's like a really big deal. But how much is that going to change your life? Hmm, I don't know if it's enough of a motivation to kill your whole family for a few hundred thousand dollars. Now, one of the points of evidence to me other than the fact that we have so many eye witnesses

claimed that they saw them right. One of the major points for me that I can't really get over, and so I can't say that their guilty is the sister now I think, a lot of people see that our while we came home and we noticed them my dad and we noticed my dad's dead, and I could hear my sister. I think a lot of people go well he needed heard a die, that's why he didn't help her right so that point two him being guilty, but you call the police, you know she's, not dead, there's a chance that the police are growing. there in time and by the way, when the police can't find the house what Doing hey we're offer here if you need her to die, so you can get this money right. And then you don't have hurt him

for me responsible for her, the needle. We need the cops get that right away and you can lead at the time a lapse even more and so yeah you show up after the movies and after you get done at this club, mom's dead, dad's dead sisters aren't dead yet now you're an option. You can finish her off or you can just wait an hour or so and then call police or when police are coming there, you don't flag them down. So that's the one ah piece of evidence that that I can't say that they're guilty because of that piece of evidence. Alright, so these two pieces of evidence to me that I can't say that they're hundred saint innocent. Are this during sebastian confession? He says these murders took place during when they were supposed to be in the movie theater and at the forensic evidence match that so out of all the things that he might go wrong or mine,

not remembered. He got the time of death of when they had to be at the house right too, the timeframe right right, a small window of time, he got that exactly right right and what is super odd here is that he has done this before and high school. He wrecked his car and when he wrecked his car he decided that he was gonna to try to create an alibi, and he did so by say he moved the peace as that of the wreckage moved. His car moved on to a movie theater, then got tickets or whatever and so took kind acclaim like war. I wasn't involved in the crash.

now. This is a big lie. Yet is fraud? This is a big deal. This is this criminal stuff, and I know that his father- and so many other people have said police, but just little kids at the time. Yeah, but sometimes little kids grow murders- and that makes some awful pieces shit right so does this is bad thing. This is lying. This is fraud what, however, you look at insurance companies who cares if the fact is a big deal and each tried to do this alibi before I think that's very fishy. So not only does he get the time correctly, he also try to use this as an alibi earlier in his life and because of those two things

this is going to become a red light case. For me I mean it already has where I I have thought oh well see, but this makes them look innocent, but all you see is makes them look guilty. I've changed my opinion four or five times in the past two weeks yeah, but we both agree that the way they got these confessions were wrong wrong. This is wrong and they should have been used at trial on if they weren't use at trial. I dont think they would have been able to get a conviction. I can and how about a little recommended reading for this week, I write me may tease, were amending beautifully cruel, so lovely so twisted by award winning journalist m william phelps. This is heart. Pounding storing, storytelling at its best phelps gives us a chilling account of them. Last person. Any one would assume to be a cold hearted killer, a beautiful devoted mother and housewife. In a small town, this housewife seem to have an all, but beneath the happy facade

was a woman who used lies, manipulation, sex and even murder to serve her own selfish needs check out, beautifully cruel, so lovely so twisted by m william. Whoops yeah. You can check out all of our recommended reading since the beginning, since we started doing the recommended reading just go to our website. True crime, garage dot com and click on the recommended page and while you're at the website go to the blog page, because I want to hear if you think that these guys are guilty. If are since I join in the conversation I now we want to everybody out there, I want to thank everybody for joy hook. One more time will try through former times I thank everybody for joining us in the garage, we give you a cheers, whether it be a long distance or one by clue, about a little shiner holiday chairs to warm the heart. This call cold cold week that my feet are freeze and right now I until next.

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